00:00:02:06 – 00:00:28:21
Dan LeFebvre
Hello and welcome to Based on a True Story, the podcast that compares your favorite Hollywood movies with history. Today we’ll be learning about the new movie called Nuremberg, directed by James Vanderbilt. Nuremberg is set during the Nuremberg trials in the wake of World War Two. In the movie, we see Michael Shannon’s version of justice Robert Jackson as a main driver behind the trial in an attempt to force the Nazi leadership to answer for their crimes during the war.

00:00:28:24 – 00:00:47:17
Dan LeFebvre
The movie focuses mostly on Russell Crowe’s version of Hermann Goering, who was one of the most powerful figures in the Nazi Party. And that brings us to one of the other main characters in the movie. Rami Malik’s version of Doctor Douglas Kelly. In the movie, Doctor Kelly is tasked with assessing the mental competence of Goering and other Nazis to stand trial.

00:00:47:20 – 00:01:04:20
Dan LeFebvre
To help us unravel the true story behind the movie today we’ll be talking with none other than Jack ally. Jack is the author of the book that they used as a basis for the movie. That book is called The Nazi and the psychiatrist. And you can find a link in the show notes to pick up your own copy right now.

00:01:04:23 – 00:01:23:11
Dan LeFebvre
But before we dive in, just a quick heads up. As of this recording, Nuremberg is still playing in the theaters and if you’ve listened to any based on a true story episodes before, you know that we can’t really dig into the historical accuracy without getting into the movie’s plot. So consider this your spoiler alert. Okay, now let’s set up our game for this episode.

00:01:23:12 – 00:01:39:12
Dan LeFebvre
Now, if you are new to the show, since based on a true story is all about separating fact from fiction in the movies, you’ll get to practice your skills at separating fact from fiction in this podcast episode with a game of two truths and a lie. So I’m about to give you three things that we’re going to talk about at some point throughout this episode.

00:01:39:14 – 00:02:00:12
Dan LeFebvre
Two of those are true, and one of them is just a lie. And your task is to see if you can figure out which one is the lie. Are you ready? Okay, here they are. Number one, Doctor Kelly was fired for talking to a newspaper reporter in Nuremberg. Number two, Doctor Kelly delivered letters from Hermann Goering to his family.

00:02:00:12 – 00:02:18:23
Dan LeFebvre
Like we see in the movie. Number three Doctor Kelly talked to growing more than any of the other Nazi prisoners in Nuremberg. Got them. Okay. Now, if you’re watching the video version of this, you can see I’m holding up an envelope. And this envelope has the answer inside. So we’ll open this up at the end of the episode to see if you got it right.

00:02:18:26 – 00:02:34:22
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Now it’s time to connect with Jack ally about the historical accuracy of Nuremberg.

00:02:34:24 – 00:02:57:10
Dan LeFebvre
My audience knows movies aren’t expected to be 100% factual, but some movies do better at adhering to history than others for a wide range of reasons. So I always like to start off by getting an overall sense for how well, movie does from a historical perspective. So with that in mind, what letter grade would you give the movie Nuremberg for its historical accuracy?

00:02:57:12 – 00:03:00:05
Jack El-Hai
I would give it an A minus eight.

00:03:00:12 – 00:03:01:24
Dan LeFebvre
That’s very good.

00:03:01:26 – 00:03:31:04
Jack El-Hai
It is very good, I think. I feel good about recommending Nuremberg to my friends because it is mostly historically accurate. There are a few variations from fact, but they’re mostly, unimportant points. The the main way in which Nuremberg differs from my book, The Nazi and the psychiatrist is in its focus. The movie Nuremberg covers about one year of time.

00:03:31:05 – 00:03:35:09
Jack El-Hai
My book covers about 45 years.

00:03:35:12 – 00:03:45:11
Dan LeFebvre
Well, that makes sense. I mean, especially, you know, in a movie, it just being a different format, different medium. There’s only so much you can do before really confusing the audience.

00:03:45:13 – 00:03:47:24
Jack El-Hai
Exactly, exactly.

00:03:47:26 – 00:04:09:01
Dan LeFebvre
Well, at the beginning of the movie, it it sets up the situation. It says it’s May 7th, 1945, the last day of war in Europe. Adolf Hitler is dead. The Nazi high command is in disarray. 70 million people are died across the globe. And then in the opening sequence of the movie, we see, black Mercedes with Nazi flags honking to get what appear to be refugees along the road to move out of the way.

00:04:09:03 – 00:04:33:21
Dan LeFebvre
And then some American soldiers nearby immediately jump to high alert when they see the car. They have their guns pointed at the car and it just stops. And the movie is very careful to not show the face of the people inside. Quite. Yet he just. The man in the back of the car tears off a white piece of cloth from a woman’s dress next to him, hands it to the driver, shows it to the soldiers, and then as he gets out from the backseat, the American soldiers recognize who it is.

00:04:33:22 – 00:04:43:27
Dan LeFebvre
Russell Crowe’s version of Hermann Goering, and he seems to just kind of drive up and surrender himself and his family to the Americans. Is that really how Goering was captured by the allies?

00:04:43:29 – 00:05:12:18
Jack El-Hai
Yes. That’s almost exactly how he was captured. He surrendered to American troops. And that very scene is in my book, although it’s not at the beginning of my book. And, I was really happy to see that scene in the book because it even includes, a joke. When Goering asks the American soldiers to unload his luggage, that did actually happen as well.

00:05:12:18 – 00:05:16:26
Jack El-Hai
And that was kept in the in the screenplay.

00:05:16:28 – 00:05:38:13
Dan LeFebvre
What would the soldiers have known him? I mean, assuming that I mean, just the car itself kind of lends itself to being an officer or something like that. But the soldiers immediately recognized him in the movie. I’m assuming then Goering was well known enough among just. I’m assuming those are just average soldiers.

00:05:38:15 – 00:06:01:01
Jack El-Hai
One of the soldiers recognizes him in the movie, and I, my impression from watching that scene in the film is that the others didn’t necessarily know who he was, so one, one was enough. And but I think that Goering was quite recognizable to people who, had been, following the ups and downs of the war.

00:06:01:01 – 00:06:09:05
Jack El-Hai
But that doesn’t mean, perhaps all U.S. soldiers were that aware of who the German leadership was.

00:06:09:08 – 00:06:33:12
Dan LeFebvre
Soon after, during his capture in the movie, were introduced to Justice Robert Jackson. He’s played by Michael Shannon, and according to the movie, Jackson is pushing for putting the Nazis on trial for their war crimes. But the problem with that, according to the movie, is that would require an international tribunal requiring judges from the four main allies the United States, France, Great Britain and the USSR.

00:06:33:14 – 00:06:51:24
Dan LeFebvre
And that’s never been done before. Looking back on the events of World War two through a historical lens, I think we can all agree that it’s pretty obvious the Nazis committed countless crimes against humanity. And so it would seem obvious that if the Nazis were put on trial, they’d be found guilty at least looking at it through a historical lens.

00:06:51:29 – 00:07:09:11
Dan LeFebvre
But the impression that I got while I was watching the movie was that a lot of the evidence that we know about now is only because it was made public during the trials. So before the trials began, it seems like nobody really knew which way they would go. There seem that could be a chance the Nazis might actually be set free.

00:07:09:13 – 00:07:23:00
Dan LeFebvre
Goring himself in the movie, he suggested that in years to come, people would look back on the trial as a farce. Can you give a little more historical context around what people thought of the authenticity of the trial at Nuremberg at that time?

00:07:23:03 – 00:07:58:12
Jack El-Hai
This kind of trial had never been attempted before. So it was an international tribunal. The four largest Allied powers, U.S., USSR, France and Great Britain, got together to to hold these men accountable and responsible for their crimes. Not all of those countries, as he suggested, were, initially on board. Winston Churchill in particular, thought that the German leaders should be lined up and shot without a trial.

00:07:58:19 – 00:08:33:21
Jack El-Hai
But interestingly, it was FDR and Joseph Stalin who convinced him otherwise, and they wanted a trial that would present all of the evidence. So that, they feared that if the German leaders were simply shot without a trial, no one would really know the extent of their crimes and their legacy could live on. And that goering’s dream that there would be statues of them all over Germany in 15 or 20 years would come true.

00:08:33:23 – 00:09:03:24
Jack El-Hai
So, and, in the course of, developing this trial, the prosecution team, which was very large, unearthed in a very short amount of time, huge masses of evidence, the as much as the, German government tried to cover its tracks and destroy, paper materials. They couldn’t there was so much they could not get at all or even come close.

00:09:03:27 – 00:09:58:08
Jack El-Hai
So there was, a gigantic amount of evidence against them. And, this part of the film, Nuremberg is where there is a deviation from my book, The Nazi in the psychiatrist’s. It’s not that this part giving the background to the trial is not factual. It it is largely. But, I didn’t cover it as extensively as other parts, other areas of the story that I was more interested in and in in particular, I did not follow the adventures of Justice Robert Jackson because, in my book, because his big moments, came after Douglas Kelly, a psychiatrist, had actually left Nuremberg, even though in the film he’s shown to be there.

00:09:58:10 – 00:10:16:28
Dan LeFebvre
I mean, that sounds like that could be a whole book by itself. Just talking about Jackson and that the way the trial is all set up and everything like that. But it sounds like they wanted to get a lot of it was to get the evidence out there was one of the big drivers for for doing the trial.

00:10:17:01 – 00:10:45:21
Jack El-Hai
Get it out there, not just among the people who would be attending the trial or listening to it on the radio or watching in newsreels, but, into the wider world for years and years so that the, the real legacy of the Nazi regime would not be mistaken and, and nullified. So that was a big part of the purpose of the trial.

00:10:45:23 – 00:11:03:25
Dan LeFebvre
That makes sense. And I would say that it work that we definitely got to learn what they were actually about. You mentioned his name. If we go back to the movie, Remy Malik’s version of Doctor Douglas Kelly enters the picture. Around this time, he’s tasked with inspecting the mental health of the Nazi prisoners in anticipation of the trial.

00:11:03:27 – 00:11:29:06
Dan LeFebvre
But according to the movie, it’s not just Goering, but the movie really kind of focuses on Goering and then three others doctor Robert Ley, he’s the chief of the German Labor Front, who spearheaded the Nazi slave labor program. Great Admiral Carl Donitz, the German Navy commander in chief, architect of the U-boat attacks. And then Julia Streicher, the, movie, says he’s Hitler’s director of propaganda and publisher of the national anti-Semitic paper called Der Sturmer.

00:11:29:09 – 00:11:49:23
Dan LeFebvre
Not to get too far ahead of the timeline in the movie, but then later on, the movie does mention, I think, 22 Nazis going on trial. So it seems like there’s more that the movie just doesn’t show. And the true story. Did Kelly focus on the main characters, those four main characters that the movie shows us, or was he tasked with inspecting all the Nazis going on trial at Nuremberg?

00:11:49:25 – 00:12:19:29
Jack El-Hai
Well, yes and no. Kelly examined and interviewed the entire group. So that was 22 members of the Nazi high command, and, he found Hermann Goering to be the most intriguing of the bunch. And so he spent more time with Goering then with any of the others. And in fact, he spent more time with Goering than with several of the others combined.

00:12:20:02 – 00:12:48:11
Jack El-Hai
So, the three that, you mentioned that are also shown in the movie, and there’s another one, too, Rudolf Hess, is given some playtime in the movie. These were important figures in the trial, but there were many other important figures that Kelly dealt with and maybe here, it might be a good time for me to mention that because you addressed his role, Kelly’s role there.

00:12:48:13 – 00:13:17:20
Jack El-Hai
He was, brought in by the tribunal to ensure that the defendants were mentally fit to stand trial in. This is a very low bar of fitness, mental fitness. So it means can they understand the charges? Do they know the difference between right and wrong? Can they participate in their own defense? And in Kelly’s opinion, all of them satisfied that requirement.

00:13:17:22 – 00:13:47:15
Jack El-Hai
But he was there among these men who were considered the arch criminals of the 20th century, all in one place together. And he saw it as a wonderful opportunity to do more. So he set up for himself a more ambitious project to determine whether they shared a common psychiatric disorder or what Kelly like to call a Nazi virus that, could account for their behavior.

00:13:47:17 – 00:13:54:21
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Yeah. So he’s going above and beyond to take advantage of all of them being in one location. It sounds like.

00:13:54:23 – 00:13:56:04
Jack El-Hai
That’s right.

00:13:56:06 – 00:14:13:21
Dan LeFebvre
What? You mentioned his name, and Rudolf Hess does end up coming in. He I think he arrived at the prison a little bit later, but the movie briefly mentioned his story. It talks about how he flew a plane to Scotland in 1941, tried to negotiate a truce with Britain and Germany so they could both team up to defeat the Soviet Union.

00:14:13:24 – 00:14:41:12
Dan LeFebvre
That doesn’t work. Hess was then in prison and then conveniently got hit with amnesia, where he couldn’t remember anything for years. Then, in February of 1945, he said that he was faking his amnesia the whole time. Then after I think the movie mentioned in July of 1945, after Germany collapsed, the amnesia returned. So now in the movie, Kelly tries to get Goring to help, to get Hess to talk, and Goering agrees to do this in exchange for Kelly getting letters to his wife and daughter.

00:14:41:12 – 00:14:49:12
Dan LeFebvre
And we’ll talk about those letters in a moment. But is the movie correct to set up this scenario of Goering helping Doctor Kelly to try to get has to talk?

00:14:49:15 – 00:15:19:01
Jack El-Hai
Absolutely. Goering was offended by Hess’s behavior because Hess, he probably was not suffering from amnesia. So Hess was pretending not to recognize Goering. And, during found this offensive. And during did assist with Kelly’s efforts to determine whether has really had amnesia or not, I think.

00:15:19:03 – 00:15:32:11
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, I think in the movie, when they first he first sees him, Hess does the Nazi salute and then later, Russell Crowe’s version of Goering points that out and he’s like, yeah, he’s faking because he recognized me the moment that he saw me.

00:15:32:13 – 00:15:37:15
Jack El-Hai
That’s right. And I believe that event also. Did that truly occur?

00:15:37:17 – 00:15:42:00
Dan LeFebvre
Wow, wow. Even little details like that. That’s it. Yeah. Makes for the A minus.

00:15:42:03 – 00:15:42:28
Jack El-Hai

00:15:43:00 – 00:16:03:12
Dan LeFebvre
Well I’m assuming that the Nazis who were helping Doctor Kelley with other Nazis like with Hess were only doing that to get something out of it themselves. Kind of like we see with, you know, Goering getting Kelly’s help with the personal letters. Were there any other scenarios of the other Nazis helping the allies interrogate other Nazis, or was Goring the only one?

00:16:03:15 – 00:16:37:24
Jack El-Hai
Not that I can recall. Goering was the only one who who provided substantive help, in that way. And there were some, like you mentioned, Admiral Donuts, who resisted, being of any help at all. So, enduring was amenable at least to doing this one thing to, try and figure out what was going on with Hess, because during wanted something in return.

00:16:37:26 – 00:17:00:25
Jack El-Hai
And, maybe we’re jumping the gun here a little bit, but, it would Goring wanted was a closer connection with his, family, his wife and daughter, who were outside of the prison, living on their own for a while. And then there was a time when Mrs. Goering was imprisoned and her daughter, was being kept in a convent.

00:17:00:25 – 00:17:09:17
Jack El-Hai
And during was very upset about all of this and wanted to open a line of communication with them.

00:17:09:19 – 00:17:27:17
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. No, that makes sense. So that’s what the movie shows. I was actually going to be my next question about those letters because, we see in the movie, Doctor Kelly is delivering letters from going to his wife, Emmy Goring, and their young daughter Edda. And throughout the movie, we see Kelly taking multiple trips to the Goering household.

00:17:27:17 – 00:17:48:28
Dan LeFebvre
He’s even invited into the home to watch Edda play the piano, which then he recounts back to Hermann when they get back to prison, and as this happens, it seems, according to the movie, that that Kelly is forming a bond with the Goring family. And then later in the movie you mentioned, getting arrested. We see or we don’t really see it happen necessarily, but we see the aftermath of Emmy and Eddie getting arrested.

00:17:49:03 – 00:18:03:11
Dan LeFebvre
And then Colonel Andrews asks Kelly how he knew where they’re hiding out. And that, to me, implies that these were not really sanctioned trips. So is it true that one of the ways Kelly got through to Hermann Goering was by secretly delivering these letters to his family?

00:18:03:13 – 00:18:34:15
Jack El-Hai
Yes, he he several times delivered letters to Emmy and Edda, and they they were not sanctioned. And the prison administration did not know that he was doing this. And the reason why I know these these letters were passed along is that copies of them exist, and they were among the trove of Douglas Kelly papers that I found.

00:18:34:17 – 00:18:42:14
Jack El-Hai
About 15 boxes of stuff that that led to me being interested in writing about this story.

00:18:42:17 – 00:18:55:26
Dan LeFebvre
Do we know if that was something that, I mean, I’m assuming Goehring kind of initiated that and then Doctor Kelly going along with it. I mean, I assume he would get in trouble if he was found out.

00:18:55:28 – 00:19:19:09
Jack El-Hai
Goering definitely initiated it. It didn’t occur to Kelly to try something like that. And if he had been caught doing it, he probably would have gotten into trouble. How serious a trouble? I’m not sure. He certainly would have been scolded, but I don’t think it would have been a huge blot on his military record.

00:19:19:12 – 00:19:42:06
Dan LeFebvre
Well, that speaks to the trust, I guess, would be that the word between Goering and Kelly. Because at least according to the movie, it seems like the allies don’t know where his family is. And once they find out, that’s when they arrest them. So I’m assuming then Goering knew that they would be in trouble or have potentially be arrested.

00:19:42:06 – 00:19:46:28
Dan LeFebvre
If Kelly gave up that information and trusted that he wouldn’t.

00:19:47:01 – 00:20:10:18
Jack El-Hai
Yes it would. Goring was preoccupied by the worry that his family was vulnerable to all kinds of hazards and dangers. And, Goring was a man of action, and for him to be confined in prison and unable to do anything to help was immensely frustrating to him.

00:20:10:21 – 00:20:27:01
Dan LeFebvre
That makes me wonder, because he he surrendered himself, did he assume that his position would be that he would be able to keep in contact with them and everything? And then all of a sudden he’s put in prison and obviously not able to.

00:20:27:03 – 00:21:07:28
Jack El-Hai
When Goering surrendered, he had a vision of how things would go after that. He was the, last living very top dog among the German leaders. Hitler, Himmler and gerbils had committed suicide and, during envisioned a time when he would, he saw himself as the statesman. So he would, resume the leadership of the German government and negotiate with the allies and lead Germany through this very difficult postwar time.

00:21:08:01 – 00:21:31:26
Jack El-Hai
But that plan, was nothing like what the allies were expecting to happen. And when, General Eisenhower, who was in charge in Europe in that time, heard about Goering’s expectation that he would be treated like a statesman, he said no way. And Goering was summarily shipped to prison.

00:21:31:28 – 00:21:52:11
Dan LeFebvre
Well, throughout the movie, we see numerous mentions of Remy Malik’s version of Doctor Kelly, saying that he believes Hermann Goering is an extreme narcissist. For example, there’s one scene when he’s talking to Justice Jackson and a JAG lawyer, Colonel John. Amen. I believe. And Kelly tells him that, above all things, the only thing that Hermann Goering cares about is Hermann Goering.

00:21:52:14 – 00:22:13:01
Dan LeFebvre
He doesn’t care about the Jews. He also doesn’t care if they die as Russell Crowe’s version of Goering says in the movie, the anti-Semitism helped gather followers, focus their emotions and give them someone to blame. So as I was watching that, the way I interpreted the movie was that basically during was willing to do anything and everything to rise to power himself.

00:22:13:07 – 00:22:23:24
Dan LeFebvre
You know, if that meant lying about his beliefs about Jews and murdering millions of people in the process. How old do you think the movie does showing Doctor Kelly’s analysis of growing?

00:22:23:26 – 00:22:56:24
Jack El-Hai
I think it does a great job of showing the ambiguity of Kelly’s position regarding Goering. You know, anything Goering said had to be taken with a huge block of salt because he was in prison. He was. He knew his life was at risk. But the film does accurately show what Goering told Kelly. How much Kelly believed it all.

00:22:56:27 – 00:23:27:12
Jack El-Hai
It is open to question. So I don’t think in in the evidence presented later at the trial shows that Goring was much more involved in the very harsh, overt anti-Semitic acts of the Nazi regime. And, it would be hard, after looking at that evidence, to say, well, this is just something that Hermann played along with so that he could take the opportunity to grasp power.

00:23:27:14 – 00:23:47:02
Jack El-Hai
So I don’t accept Hermann Goering’s explanation in that sense. And I have a feeling that Douglas Kelly didn’t either. So I guess that’s a long way of saying that. What’s shown in the movie is a simplified version of of what Goering said. But there is more behind it.

00:23:47:04 – 00:24:15:12
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. Which speaks to how difficult of a job it must have been for, for Kelly to unravel these things of what somebody is telling you may not be the truth, and probably likely is not the truth. I mean, I mean, beyond just, you know, being politicians or things like that, but, you know, these people in a position where their life is at stake and they’re not really used to that.

00:24:15:15 – 00:24:17:12
Jack El-Hai
Absolutely.

00:24:17:14 – 00:24:36:27
Dan LeFebvre
There’s another story I wanted to ask you about from the movie that it comes from a discussion with Doctor Kelly alone in his cell with going I’m sorry in Goering cell not, not in, in doctor Kelly’s. No. But they’re alone together and and going tells the story from his childhood and the Jewish man that he was named after Hermann von Stein.

00:24:36:29 – 00:25:11:13
Dan LeFebvre
And according to the movie, Epstein was was Goering’s father’s best friend. And then Epstein was also extremely rich and let the growing family move in with him at the castle that he own goes to lend itself to how rich he was. He owns a castle, and he goes on to tell Doctor Kelly that living in the castle, the child, he started to realize just how rich, quote unquote, Uncle Herman was, so rich that he could move the Goering family into his castle, so rich that he could make Goering’s father live in a bedroom on the ground floor, while his mother lived in a bedroom just down the hall from Epstein’s own bedroom, and so rich

00:25:11:13 – 00:25:27:29
Dan LeFebvre
that whenever he wanted, he could walk down the hall and enjoy. Goering’s mother in the movie going, uses that story to tell Doctor Kelly that just because someone is your ally doesn’t mean they’re on your side. But how much of that story from Hermann Goering’s childhood really happened?

00:25:28:01 – 00:25:42:12
Jack El-Hai
I think all of it. I think that story is factually correct. And Goring did tell Kelly about it during their in the prison interviews.

00:25:42:14 – 00:25:46:15
Dan LeFebvre
Wow. Wow. I mean, that’s really.

00:25:46:17 – 00:25:53:05
Dan LeFebvre
It’s a peek into Goering’s mind, you know, childhood and.

00:25:53:07 – 00:26:09:27
Dan LeFebvre
How he I guess the way that it was still on his mind. But then using that manipulation. It sounds like he’s trying to manipulate Kelly in the movie using, you know, this, using this nugget of truth and using it to manipulate. I mean, that’s in there.

00:26:09:27 – 00:26:53:11
Jack El-Hai
That’s an important thing to remember about both of these men. They were master manipulators. Both of them. One of my big sources when I was researching the book was I had tracked down Doctor Kelly’s son, Doug. And, so he had all of his memories of his families. Plus he provided me with those boxes of documents. And when I have talked with Doug about this meeting of Goehring and Kelly, we always refer to them as King Kong versus Godzilla because they were both highly intelligent, both, the Egotists, both absolutely sure of their own opinions, stubborn.

00:26:53:13 – 00:27:29:04
Jack El-Hai
And so that were those similarities were part of the basis of their affinity. I won’t call it a friendship. Because Kelly, the entire time was very aware of Hermann Goering’s dark side. The his ruthlessness, lack of conscience, lack of empathy, all of that and would never, considered during a friend. But they did develop a bond just from spending all of those hours together and and sharing so much about their, their pasts.

00:27:29:06 – 00:27:32:29
Jack El-Hai
So that that is a big part of this story.

00:27:33:01 – 00:28:04:06
Dan LeFebvre
Well, that leads right into my next question, because if we go back to the movie’s timeline, the trial is beginning. And something that the movie focuses on is film of the Nazi concentration camps that they play at the trial. Those are just horrible images from the Holocaust, and I’m sure many of us have seen by now. But afterwards, when Kelly talks to Goering in his cell, Kelly is understandably shaken by what he just saw, and he flat out asks Goering how he could be the second in command in Nazi Germany and not know about this.

00:28:04:08 – 00:28:23:14
Dan LeFebvre
And Granger says, oh, Himmler was in charge of the camps. And then Kelly points out that it wasn’t Himmler who was second in command behind Hitler. It was Goering. And then Goering says, oh, well, the films were faked and, you know, comes up with more excuses. And then Goering uses another excuse. He says, you know, Americans bombed Japan, killing 150,000 Japanese.

00:28:23:14 – 00:28:52:08
Dan LeFebvre
That included civilians. And that’s when in the movie, Kelly just blows up at Goering and says, there’s a difference between bombing war factories and civilians dying as collateral damage, and Goering’s Nazi Party building 1200 camps designed to exterminate an entire race. So if were to believe the movie’s version of events, this kind of seems to be a turning point between Kelly and Goering, where I won’t call it a friendship, but they have this this connection going on.

00:28:52:08 – 00:29:06:03
Dan LeFebvre
And then once Kelly sees the films of the concentration camps in the trial and the reality of what the Nazis did, he kind of snaps back to reality. Was that a turning point in how Doctor Kelly interacted with Goering? Like the movie suggests?

00:29:06:06 – 00:29:50:23
Jack El-Hai
Yes, the movie presents, I would say, a concentrated version of that conversation all happening in one scene. In, in actuality, it happened over several days. And so it happened not exactly as shown in the movie. I think, one thing in the, in this scene that Goering is trying to do and something they actually did struggle with during his imprisonment is, was how is he going to present himself when it is his turn to testify in the forthcoming trial?

00:29:50:25 – 00:30:16:27
Jack El-Hai
And so he was strategizing different ways. And so, I’ve always thought that this denial that he makes at the beginning, you know, he had nothing to do with the camps. And then the films were fakes. These were trial balloons that he was sending up to see how Kelly would receive them. And then maybe Goering could make a determination whether to really use that based on Kelly’s reaction.

00:30:17:00 – 00:30:33:20
Dan LeFebvre
Oh, okay. Yeah. So using Kelly as, a guinea pig, almost of his use of his defense. Wow. Okay. Yeah, that that makes sense. Now that you mention that, I didn’t even think about that. There is a character that we see pop up here and there throughout the movie. We haven’t talked about much yet. And her name is Lila.

00:30:33:21 – 00:30:58:27
Dan LeFebvre
She meets Doctor Kelly on the train before he arrives at Nuremberg. Then, after blowing up at Goering and seeing the footage of the concentration camp, we see Doctor Kelly drinking at the bar, and then she shows up again. And that’s when we find out she’s a reporter. The movie seems to imply his drinking played a part, but in the next scene after that, we see a newspaper article with the headline that says Prison Doc Tells All, and that’s Colonel Andrus is not happy with Doctor Kelly talking to a reporter.

00:30:58:27 – 00:31:05:08
Dan LeFebvre
So he orders Kelly back to the States where he’s going to be discharged. Was that really how Doctor Kelly was effectively fired from the job?

00:31:05:11 – 00:31:37:27
Jack El-Hai
No, there’s that’s one place where the story in the film deviates from fact. The reporter character you mentioned is, as far as I know, the only completely made up person in the in the screenplay and in the film, Doctor Kelly did talk with a reporter and said some things that were probably imprudent for him to say, and it was reported in Stars and Stripes, the military newspaper.

00:31:37:29 – 00:32:08:13
Jack El-Hai
But, again, Kelly only got a scolding for that. He did not get him fired. In fact, Kelly was never fired. He left on his own initiative here and then was honorably discharged from the Army. And so, if if the movie gives the impression that Kelly left under some kind of cloud, then that is inaccurate. And in probably there for drama’s sake.

00:32:08:15 – 00:32:31:13
Dan LeFebvre
I know that. Yeah, that makes sense. Again, it is a movie. There’s a there’s another character that we see throughout the movie that we haven’t talked about much yet, and that’s Leo Whittle’s character, Sergeant Howie Triste. He’s the translator, has been working with Doctor Kelly this whole time. So after Kelly is fired in the movie and he’s about to leave, she stops him at the train station and tells him his own story.

00:32:31:16 – 00:32:50:23
Dan LeFebvre
According the movie, he is a German Jew born in Munich. His family was trying to get out of Germany with the rise of the Nazis and they managed to get exit visas in 1940. But only had enough money for one ticket to the United States. His sister was too young to go alone, so she stayed behind with the parents, and that left Howie alone in America, and he tried to enlist.

00:32:50:23 – 00:33:11:03
Dan LeFebvre
After Pearl Harbor, but he was refused because he wasn’t an American citizen. Then, two years later, he was drafted into service and ended up landing on Omaha Beach on D-Day in 1944. I loved the line in the movie where Treece looks at Kelly and says, four years earlier, I left this country scared and alone in the middle of the night, and I came back with the goddamn army.

00:33:11:05 – 00:33:28:20
Dan LeFebvre
And that’s when he comes back as he finds out, according to the movie, that his sister ended up in Switzerland with relatives, and the records show that his parents arrived in Auschwitz in 1942 and then camp was liberated 1945. And there’s no record of them. All of that ends up being the story after after Kelly is fired, he’s about to leave.

00:33:28:23 – 00:33:42:03
Dan LeFebvre
He hears this story, and he hears the importance of what he’s doing and how he can still help with this case against the Nazis. How well do you think the movie did, recounting the story of Sergeant Harry Treece?

00:33:42:05 – 00:34:16:24
Jack El-Hai
How he traced was a real person. He was one of several translators who worked with Doctor Kelly and others in having conversations with the German defendants. I interviewed him, and, I think the way the movie presents his life story is essentially correct. I, don’t have a record of this myself, but I do recall my phone interview with Howie that he did have a slight German accent when I spoke with him.

00:34:17:01 – 00:34:52:16
Jack El-Hai
And, as, Leo Woodall speaks in the movie, it’s completely, non accented, American English. So there there is maybe one, liberty taken there, but his story is, is as it happened pretty much. And and and he, how he Trieste did write a book of his own experiences, before my book was written.

00:34:52:18 – 00:35:06:27
Jack El-Hai
And I use that as a resource. And that line you mentioned, I came back with the U.S. Army. It sounds familiar to me, and I think it may be from how his own book. I may have used it in my own book. I don’t recall.

00:35:06:29 – 00:35:29:17
Dan LeFebvre
It’s a great line now. Well, after hearing this story, Kelly decides not to leave yet. Instead, we see in the movie, we see him giving all of his research on going to Justice Jackson and fight for justice from Great Britain. He gives him all his private files off the book conversations, everything that he’s gathered to put into his own book that he wanted to write after the war.

00:35:29:17 – 00:35:38:19
Dan LeFebvre
He hands over to the prosecutors to help them build their case. Did Doctor Kelly hand over everything he had on going to the Allied prosecutors the way the movie shows?

00:35:38:21 – 00:36:16:04
Jack El-Hai
No. He took it home with him. And and it ended up in those 15 boxes that that I had a chance to look at. So here, here, events do get a little factually murky here because by the time, Goering was going to appear at the trial and give testimony, Kelly was already long gone from Nuremberg. He left in January 1946, and I believe during made his first appearance on the witness stand in March or April of 1946.

00:36:16:06 – 00:36:52:04
Jack El-Hai
So Kelly did not present this stash of, valuable info to the prosecution and to to Justice Jackson. He did, however, during the months that he was in Nuremberg, provide a stream of information to the prosecution team and this was in the form of memos, that he sent periodically, mainly from his conversations with Goering and a lot of that information was about how Goering planned to conduct his own defense at the trial.

00:36:52:04 – 00:36:57:04
Jack El-Hai
So it’s partly factual part, partly not.

00:36:57:07 – 00:37:31:14
Dan LeFebvre
It sounds like a simplified and condensed for the movie. Did Kelly have a lot of off off the record tape conversations with Goering or and with the manner of his work? Because he was, as you mentioned before, kind of going above and beyond and and not just doing the bare minimum. But he was doing extra. Was that still officially documented or recorded, or is that something that he just kept in his own own stuff and never made it to anybody else?

00:37:31:14 – 00:37:32:02
Dan LeFebvre
Basically.

00:37:32:04 – 00:38:07:17
Jack El-Hai
This was his personal project. The court was not interested in it. And, even had they known it was going on, they wouldn’t have been interested in it. And the prosecution, same thing. Kelly was doing this for his own to satisfy his own professional curiosity and to, enable his own later personal glory, as he imagined it when he published his book in 1947, the book was called 22 Cells in Nuremberg.

00:38:07:17 – 00:38:17:17
Jack El-Hai
It’s really hard to find now, and that’s because it sold poorly at the time, and there were just not that many copies out there.

00:38:17:20 – 00:38:40:09
Dan LeFebvre
Well, that’s fascinating that they wouldn’t have been interested, but I guess they had plenty of other evidence to sift through and the whatever current things that they’re saying, you know, we’re talking about earlier, they might not be truthful anyway, whatever Goering is saying. So stick to the evidence, stick to the facts for the trial. It sounds like it’s basically what they were, right.

00:38:40:09 – 00:39:21:26
Jack El-Hai
And whether or not the, defendants, you know, shared a psychic common psychiatric disorder that really was of no import to the prosecution. They just wanted to know, are these men sane? And is it, you know, are they fit to be tried? This, what Kelly was after was really a of importance to, you know, to history or to he and his fellow psychiatrists and, what he, his what he learned from it all is important, because it affected him for the rest of his life.

00:39:21:28 – 00:40:04:11
Jack El-Hai
And it was that if there was no Nazi virus, that these men did not share a psychiatric disorder. In fact, they were not psychiatrically disordered at all in any way that their personalities fell within the normal range. Meaning not that everyone’s capable of doing what they did, but that there are, in every country, every era, all around us, people like that who, lack conscience, lack empathy, have no concept of public service in or out for their own power and glory, and will trample, many, many other people to get there.

00:40:04:14 – 00:40:25:12
Dan LeFebvre
What? You might have already answered my my next question, but if you go back to the movie’s timeline, it’s there’s another day of trial. And Justice Jackson from the US and five from Great Britain managed to get going to admit something that ends up being his ultimate demise, at least according to the movie. Throughout the whole case, he’d been denying knowledge of what was going on in the concentration camp.

00:40:25:15 – 00:40:45:27
Dan LeFebvre
But then, thanks to Kelly’s tip that Göring would never turn on Adolf Hitler, asks him point blank while Göring is on the stand, even if he didn’t know what was going on in the concentration camps. Now that he does, with the evidence presented to him in court, would he still follow Hitler? And Goering says yes, he would, at least according to the movie, I’m assuming.

00:40:45:29 – 00:40:47:25
Dan LeFebvre
Did that actually happen.

00:40:47:28 – 00:41:20:13
Jack El-Hai
That those, scenes are, were, are a little bit outside of the scope of my book because Kelly was already gone. And, and so, my impression, though, is that it wasn’t just five who helped Jackson out. It was the large prosecution team. It was a team effort. It is true that when Jackson was questioning Goering, Goering was scoring some very good points and making Jackson look bad and making himself look good.

00:41:20:15 – 00:41:44:16
Jack El-Hai
And so it did require, something of a rescue effort by the rest of the prosecution team, but that I think that mainly came in the form of an avalanche of evidence against Goering, contradicting, some of the claims he had made earlier that he didn’t know about the Holocaust. He had nothing to do with death camps, etc..

00:41:44:16 – 00:41:47:24
Jack El-Hai
And the evidence showed that that wasn’t true.

00:41:47:26 – 00:42:07:03
Dan LeFebvre
What after Goering’s fate is sealed along with the other Nazis in the trial, the movie shows Colonel Andrus addressing the men that the executions are scheduled for midnight, but to maintain discipline, the prisoners aren’t going to be told about it until 11:45 p.m., when they’re offered last rites. And while he’s telling his men this, he gets notification that Goring took a cyanide pill.

00:42:07:06 – 00:42:21:12
Dan LeFebvre
So the impression that I got watching the movie was Goering didn’t know that was the night of the execution, because he didn’t tell anybody. But he knew it would be soon. And somehow he managed to get this cyanide pill. Was that what really happened?

00:42:21:14 – 00:42:52:10
Jack El-Hai
Yes, more or less. When Goehring surrendered to the Allied authorities, he had cyanide capsules with him hidden in his luggage and maybe other places. And these were the capsules that, that Himmler and gerbils had used to to take their own lives earlier. And so nobody really knows how Göring got a hold of one of those capsules in his cell.

00:42:52:13 – 00:43:26:18
Jack El-Hai
But the most convincing theory I know, and this isn’t gotten into in the film, is that he made an arrangement with an American guard, and in exchange for the guard receiving some valuables, the during had, jewelry and rings and things like that. The guard provided Goering with access to the most hidden cyanide capsules. I think, aside from the one that Goering did take, to commit suicide, there was another one found in his cell at the same time.

00:43:26:21 – 00:43:46:02
Dan LeFebvre
Oh, wow. Wow. Well, I guess kind of what you’re talking about before, you know, King Kong versus Godzilla. But, you know, a guard is not King Kong or Godzilla or anywhere in that scheme. So I could see how somebody like Goering would be able to manipulate people to kind of do what he wanted.

00:43:46:05 – 00:43:57:26
Jack El-Hai
Absolutely. He was a charmer, and he could turn on the charm when he wanted it. And everybody was bored in prison. And charm could go a long way.

00:43:57:28 – 00:44:15:16
Dan LeFebvre
At the end of the movie, there’s a scene with Doctor Kelly being interviewed by a radio host back in the United States. And when the host mentions the Nazis are a unique people, I want to quote what Raymie Maltz version of Doctor Kelly replies with, because I think the dialog here was extremely well-written. He says, quote, they are not unique people.

00:44:15:16 – 00:44:42:22
Dan LeFebvre
There are people like the Nazis in every country in the world today. And then the host button interrupts them and says, Not in America. And then Doctor Kelly continues, quote, yes, in America, your personality patterns are not obscure. They are people who want to be in power. And while you say they don’t exist here, I would say I’m quite certain there are people in America who would willingly climb over the corpses of half the American public if they knew they could gain control of the other half.

00:44:42:25 – 00:45:05:15
Dan LeFebvre
They stoke hatred. It’s what Hitler and Goring did, and it is textbook. And if you think the next time it happens, we’re going to recognize it because they’re wearing scary uniforms. You’re out of your damn mind. And that’s the end of the quote. Now, even though this is not a political podcast, I do think that’s an important thing to keep in mind, because it seems like these days there’s a lot of hatred being stoked to try and gain control.

00:45:05:18 – 00:45:15:11
Dan LeFebvre
So my final question for you, what lessons do you think we can learn from the true story of Doctor Kelly’s work in the Nuremberg trials?

00:45:15:13 – 00:46:00:13
Jack El-Hai
Those words that that you repeated, that Doctor Kelly says in the movie were absolutely Douglas Kelly’s words. I don’t know if he actually spoke to them in a radio interview, but they’re in his book. And, I think there are two strands of, of contemporary resonance that this story has today. And one is how important it is for people in in positions of leadership, positions of responsibility to be held accountable by the international community, as happened at Nuremberg for crimes against peace, crimes against humanity, genocide, all of it.

00:46:00:16 – 00:46:29:24
Jack El-Hai
And then the other is the threat that we face, in our country, the threat to our democracy from these extremist ideologies. Kelly came back to the US and his perspective had been changed from, spending so much time with these defendants. And he saw, things very close to Nazi ism all around him. So this was in 1946.

00:46:29:26 – 00:47:05:07
Jack El-Hai
It was expressed, mainly in the form of the power grabs made by southern politicians, the racial segregationists who had very high state offices at the time, governors, senator, senators. And, but he made it clear and Kelly made it clear that this did not only apply to those people and that it applied to anyone who would use emotion, try and fight off, critical thinking as a way to make decisions.

00:47:05:10 – 00:47:36:25
Jack El-Hai
People who use, degrading terms. For of other of their opponents based on race, religion, where they’re from, all of that. Kelly saw it around him and was against it, and he even laid out a plan for fighting it. So it’s it’s a message. He was prescient, and it’s a message that I think we need to pay attention, especially now.

00:47:36:27 – 00:47:55:00
Dan LeFebvre
I agree. Thank you so much for coming on to chat about the movie Nuremberg. The movie is based on your fantastic book Nazi and the psychiatrist, which goes into a lot more depth than we ever could on a single podcast episode. So for everyone wanting to learn more about the true story behind the movie, I have a link in the show notes where you can get your own copy of Jack’s book right now while they do that.

00:47:55:00 – 00:48:03:12
Dan LeFebvre
And before I let you go, Jack, can you share one of your favorite stories from the process of making the movie?

00:48:03:15 – 00:48:46:14
Jack El-Hai
Sure. I, was was fortunate to be invited by the film’s director and screenwriter, James Vanderbilt, to come to Hungary. This was the last year in 2024 to, visit this the set. It was actually a gigantic soundstage on the outskirts of Budapest and, see some of the filming. So I got there, and on the first day of shooting that I was witness to the scene that they were shooting that day was a set built to look like a big transport plane, the inside of a big transport plane.

00:48:46:16 – 00:49:20:02
Jack El-Hai
And, this was used in a scene where all of the German defendants are being transported from Luxembourg, where many of them were initially held, to Nuremberg, where the trial would be held. And, I had written this scene in my book and had imagined it a particular way. And when I saw the cast and it was almost everybody crammed into this small space representing the inside of the transport plane.

00:49:20:04 – 00:49:45:13
Jack El-Hai
When I saw that, coming to life before my eyes, I was just dumbfounded because it played out exactly as I imagined it. And, you know, even to the point of the interactions between the defendants and Doctor Kelly, who was also aboard. So that was the first thing I saw. And it has really stayed with me all this time.

00:49:45:16 – 00:49:59:05
Dan LeFebvre
I mean, that’s that’s high praise that they nailed it what you had in your head. And it’s also high praise of what you had in your head, also came out in the book. Obviously, it translated to the other side too, where they were able to see what you had in your head as you wrote.

00:49:59:07 – 00:50:18:24
Jack El-Hai
Yeah. And James Vanderbilt, the screenwriter and director, is, very attuned to history as well as being an excellent screenwriter. And, I think he placed a priority, whenever possible, to make things as historically accurate as possible.

00:50:18:27 – 00:50:21:07
Dan LeFebvre
Well, thank you again so much for your time, Jack.

00:50:21:09 – 00:50:31:15
Jack El-Hai
Thank you. Dan, good to be here.

00:50:31:17 – 00:50:48:02
Dan LeFebvre
This episode is based on a true story was produced by me, Dan the Fed. Thank you once again to Jack ally for sharing his time and expertise to help us separate fact from fiction in the movie Nuremberg. If you want to dig deeper into the true story, I can’t recommend Jack’s book enough. It’s called The Nazi and the psychiatrist.

00:50:48:04 – 00:51:05:17
Dan LeFebvre
And as we learned, this is the book that they based the movie on. I’ve got a link to this in the show notes, so you can pick up your own copy, as well as on the shows home on the web over at based on a True Story podcast.com/378. Okay, now it’s time for the answer to our two truths and a lie game from the beginning of the episode, and it’s a quick refresher.

00:51:05:18 – 00:51:28:08
Dan LeFebvre
Here are the two truths and one lie again. Number one Doctor Kelly was fired for talking to a newspaper reporter in Nuremberg. Number two, Doctor Kelly delivered letters from Hermann Goering to his family like we see in the movie number three. Doctor Kelly talked to growing more than any of the other Nazi prisoners in Nuremberg. Did you figure out which one is a lie?

00:51:28:10 – 00:51:46:10
Dan LeFebvre
I’ve got the envelope here, so let’s open this up. And the lie is number one. As Jack pointed out, the reporter that we see Doctor Kelly talking to in the movie is a fictional character. And we also learned that Doctor Kelly left Nuremberg. I was on a court and he was never fired like we see in the movie.

00:51:46:13 – 00:52:02:01
Dan LeFebvre
Thanks for sticking around to the end. If you are watching the video version here in a moment, you’re going to see the credits roll, and if you want to get your name in the credits for the next video and on the website, you can learn how to become a based on a true story producer using the link in the description or over at based on a True Story podcast.

00:52:02:01 – 00:52:13:17
Dan LeFebvre
E-commerce support once again, that’s based on a true story podcast.com/support. Until next time, thanks so much for spending your time with Jack and I today, and I’ll chat with you again really soon.

00:00:02:01 – 00:00:32:21
Dan LeFebvre
Hello and welcome to Based on a True Story, the podcast that compares your favorite Hollywood movies and TV shows with history. With spooky season upon us. Today we’re pulling another classic episode from the vault. Actually, more than that, we’re going to do three episodes all about the same TV series History Channel’s Project Blue Book. In case the title alone doesn’t tell you what it’s about, Project Blue Book was the codename for the United States Air Force’s systematic study of UFOs.

00:00:32:23 – 00:00:56:27
Dan LeFebvre
Perhaps the best way to summarize it is from this fact sheet from the Air Force themselves, and I want to link to the whole thing in the show notes. If you want to read it all. But it starts like this. From 1947 to 1969, the Air Force investigated unidentified flying objects under Project Blue Book. The project, headquartered at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, was terminated December 17th, 1969.

00:00:57:00 – 00:01:28:06
Dan LeFebvre
Of a total of 12,618 sightings reported to Project Blue Book, 701 remained unidentified. Now, if you’re watching the video version of this, you might notice some of my little corrections to that document, because technically, Project Blue Book itself didn’t start in 1947. The truth is a little more complex than that, as we’ll hear throughout this episode. But as you might imagine, the TV show that shares the name of the Air Force’s Project Blue Book covers some of those reports created by David O’Leary.

00:01:28:07 – 00:01:51:00
Dan LeFebvre
Project blue Book ran for two seasons of ten episodes each. The first season was in 2019 and the second in 2020. So that means we have a lot to cover today. And to kick this off, we’ll get to hear from the host of one of my all time favorite UFO related podcasts, Rob Christofferson. He’ll help us separate fact from fiction in each episode of the entire series, both seasons.

00:01:51:04 – 00:02:10:08
Dan LeFebvre
So that’s two episodes, one for each season. And then for the third episode, we’ll get to go behind the TV show itself as we hear from the creator, David O’Leary and the showrunner, Sean Blonsky. Before we kick this off with Rob Christofferson, though, let’s set up our game Two Truths and a lie for the first season of Project Blue Book.

00:02:10:10 – 00:02:28:10
Dan LeFebvre
Now, if you’re new to the show, since based on a true story is all about separating fact from fiction in the movies and TV, you’ll get to practice your skills at separating fact from fiction. In this podcast episode, with the game of two Truths and lie. So I’m about to give you three things that we’ll talk about during the first season of Project Blue Book.

00:02:28:13 – 00:03:01:03
Dan LeFebvre
Two of those things are true, and one of them is just an all out lie. Are you ready? Okay. Here, there. Number one, Project Blue Book was the first time the government investigated UFOs. Number two, former Nazi Wernher von Braun teamed up with Walt Disney to promote the U.S. space program after World War two. Number three, the term Foo Fighters was used by World War Two pilots who saw unexplained phenomena.

00:03:01:06 – 00:03:20:25
Dan LeFebvre
Got them. Okay, now, as you’re listening to our story today, see if you can figure out which one of those. It’s a lie. And I’ve got the answer in the envelope right here. And we’ll open that at the end of season one of Project Bluebook to see how well you did. Oh, and speaking of the video version here, just so you know, these episodes are from the vault.

00:03:20:25 – 00:03:47:18
Dan LeFebvre
They were recorded in 2020 and 2021, respectively. And that was before I did video episodes. So these are remastered audio only episodes. But with that, now it’s time to playback my chat with Rob Christopherson from 2020 about the historical accuracy of Project Bluebook Season one.

00:03:47:21 – 00:04:24:15
Dan LeFebvre
I’d like to start by setting the stage for Doctor J. Allen Hynek and his work on Project Bluebook. Now, according to the TV show Doctor, Hynek was an astrophysics teacher at Ohio State before he he’s recruited by the US Air Force to investigate flying saucers, what they called Project Bluebook. Now, there’s one little bit of dialog in the show where they give a very vague reason as to why they picked Doctor Hynek, and it’s when General James Harding tells Captain Michael Quinn that Hynek, quote, did some things for us in the war, end quote.

00:04:24:18 – 00:04:45:24
Dan LeFebvre
So not a lot of details there about that. But they do give some details about why they started Project Blue Book itself. Now, the reason that the show gives for that was because there are Hollywood movies about aliens coming out, and the public know something’s going on, but no one knows exactly what, including the government. According to the show.

00:04:45:25 – 00:05:08:00
Dan LeFebvre
So they want to find out, but they also want to cover it up. We get the sense from the show that the military picked Hynek because of his scientific background, because he’s not in the military, they’re hoping that they can give a little bit of some scientific proof to the public for flying saucers. That’s outside of the military.

00:05:08:03 – 00:05:30:12
Dan LeFebvre
Now, in the show, Doctor Hynek agrees to join Project Bluebook on three conditions. One is that he stays on staff at Ohio State. Two is he gets a paycheck from the government, some extra money for his family. And the three is that he gets recognition for whatever he finds. So that is, according to this TV show, a kind of setting all of this up.

00:05:30:14 – 00:05:36:19
Dan LeFebvre
How well do you think the show did depicting the way that Doctor Hynek got involved in Project Bluebook?

00:05:36:21 – 00:06:08:19
Rob Kristoffersen
So Doctor Hynek, joining Project Bluebook was kind of a matter of convenience for most. So, when Project Bluebook comes into being in late 1951, this is essentially the government’s third attempt to study the UFO phenomenon. And doctor J.L. and Harnick was part of the government’s first UFO study, which is called Project Sign, signed commenced in January of 1948 and was shuttered later that year.

00:06:08:21 – 00:06:40:11
Rob Kristoffersen
He joined the project in the spring of 48, for a few different reasons. He was at the time the director of the observatory at Ohio State University. All of the government’s UFO projects were run out of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, which was about 60 miles away from him. And Hynek already had a high security clearance from his work on the proximity fuze during World War two, which is what they kind of allude to him doing things for us during the war.

00:06:40:14 – 00:07:06:05
Rob Kristoffersen
And when you factor in all of these things, Hynek was kind of the guy they needed an astronomer to rule out any kind of astronomical explanation that there could be for the sightings. And, he was a perfect guy to do it. So, as our good friend Sam stated on the Not Alone podcast, right place, right time, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.

00:07:06:08 – 00:07:10:27
Dan LeFebvre
I love that. So,

00:07:10:29 – 00:07:46:27
Rob Kristoffersen
When Hynek took the job, he believed that this would be a quick one. He was pretty sure that what the UFO phenomenon was at the time was just Cold War nerves, world War two, latent nerves, you know, stuff left over. So, one of the most important cases that Hynek worked on, and that will come full circle for his involvement in Project Blue Book is a case involving a pilot by the name of Thomas F Mantell, who died while in pursuit of a UFO in January of 1948.

00:07:47:00 – 00:08:25:29
Rob Kristoffersen
Mantell and a few other pilots were taxiing planes from Marietta, Georgia, to Stanford Field in Kentucky. And while they were doing that, Godman Air Force Base, which was located near Fort Knox, had received a few unidentified blips on their radar and asked Mantell and his crew of a few other pilots to go investigate it. Well, Mantell pursued the object, but, unfortunately, he didn’t have oxygen on board, so when his plane climbed too high, he suffered from epoxy, which basically caused him to crash his plane.

00:08:26:02 – 00:08:50:15
Rob Kristoffersen
And Hynek was the one that kind of made his determination on this case. And he claimed that he was chasing the planet Venus. So really just kind of debunking mentality. And that was at the start of Project Sine. That was the mentality that, and Hynek had. So.

00:08:50:18 – 00:09:17:06
Rob Kristoffersen
Project sine was basically shuttered largely because of a document called The Estimate of the situation, which basically said that these crafts were extraterrestrial in origin. No surviving copy of this document exists, though, like, the generals that this report went to basically said, you have to destroy every single one of these, documents. There’s no way that we’re going to the president or anybody with this kind of information.

00:09:17:06 – 00:09:54:02
Rob Kristoffersen
So no surviving copy has ever been found, but there have been people who have attested to it, including Doctor Hynek himself. So signed was shuttered and was reactivated as Project Grudge. Now, grudge was strictly a debunking campaign. They downplayed reports and at times just threw them out. Didn’t even bother to investigate them. Grudge officially lasted for about a year, but they kind of kept somebody on staff so that if somebody did want to report UFO sightings to there, there would be somebody there.

00:09:54:02 – 00:10:25:14
Rob Kristoffersen
And that guy’s name was Lieutenant Jerry Cummings. And in 1951, there was a sighting at Fort Monroe, Monmouth, new Jersey, and Air Force personnel witnessed a disc shaped object. And a report was, filed, but was ultimately dismissed by Cummings under the directive that he had been working with. And this report made its name to a general by the name of CP Campbell, who requested to see the report and didn’t really like the looks of it.

00:10:25:15 – 00:10:55:04
Rob Kristoffersen
He didn’t feel like people were being honest with him, and Cummings basically told him how the project had been handled up to this point, that it was there just to debunk reports. And, at that point, Cummings got or sorry, Campbell got pretty angry and, he ordered that, Project Grudge be reactivated in full force. Unfortunately, Cummings was on his way out, back to a civilian life.

00:10:55:04 – 00:11:08:09
Rob Kristoffersen
So he got a gentleman by the name of Captain Edward Rupert, who was the first Project Bluebook head to, spearhead this project. So.

00:11:08:12 – 00:11:32:16
Rob Kristoffersen
Captain Rupert was essentially the backup pilot, for the crew of the Enola Gay. So if any, of the pilots that were involved in that flight couldn’t, somehow make it, for whatever reason, he was the guy that was going to fly that plane, and he had worked with Doctor Hynek before on Project Sign, and he quickly got in there.

00:11:32:16 – 00:11:52:15
Rob Kristoffersen
He whipped this project into shape, and it soon it would be relabeled Project Blue Book. But one of the things that he did was he went back into the old reports just to see what was there, to see how things were ruled. And Rupert was the kind of guy who was going to give you his objective opinion.

00:11:52:15 – 00:12:14:20
Rob Kristoffersen
He wanted this to be as objective study as possible. So if you leaned one way, either one way to one side or the other, you were kicked off the team. So, one case report that he looked at was the Thomas F Mantell case, and he saw that Hynek was the one that made the determination on that one.

00:12:14:22 – 00:12:47:00
Rob Kristoffersen
So he basically called him up and said, I need you to come back in here. We need to reexamine this case. They determined that what Mantell was chasing was a Project Mogul balloon. This was a newly declassified project. As of 1951, that essentially set up weather balloons to, with audio equipment attached to them. And they were basically there to detect Soviet atomic bomb tests.

00:12:47:03 – 00:12:56:29
Rob Kristoffersen
And that’s basically how Hynek made his way onto Project Bluebook. He stayed, after that, through the entirety of the project.

00:12:57:01 – 00:13:14:26
Dan LeFebvre
So just to make sure I’m understanding there was a captain, because in the show, there’s Captain Quinn, and we also meet a couple generals. General Harding and General Valentine are the character names. Were they also were they based on those, those generals and the captain that you were referring to, or they just completely fictional?

00:13:14:29 – 00:13:55:22
Rob Kristoffersen
They’re inspired. They’re not, totally those people. For instance, Captain Quinn is kind of based on to Project Blue book heads, Edward Powell, like I mentioned. And, another one by the name of Colonel Robert Friend, who was a Tuskegee Airman, and he served, I think, for about a year. But he was he had had that Edward Pelt mentality, which was he they were skeptical, but they wouldn’t let their, skeptical beliefs really shatter any kind of, reports or anything like that or, you know, lead them down a road.

00:13:55:22 – 00:14:24:12
Rob Kristoffersen
They didn’t think they should be going. In general, Valentine, I do believe, is based on General Nathan Twining, who was the general that actually created Project Sign, and he was kind of a figure in the background during the government UFO research project. So he was always kind of there in the background, always kind of got Intel and he’s, you know, made some interesting statements on UFOs and such.

00:14:24:14 – 00:14:36:05
Rob Kristoffersen
The there’s some funny interviews with him. There’s one in which he alludes to UFOs kind of thwarting U.S. forces in Vietnam and stuff like that. It’s, there’s a lot of fun stuff out there.

00:14:36:08 – 00:14:49:19
Dan LeFebvre
Well, yeah. Okay. I was just curious because obviously Doctor Hynek being real. I was just curious who on the military side of it would have been real. But it sounds like they’re more just composite characters, which is very common that we get for movies and TV shows.

00:14:49:22 – 00:14:59:18
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah, for the most part, the only, real to life characters on the show are Doctor Allen Hynek and his wife, Mimi. Mimi Hynek.

00:14:59:21 – 00:15:25:25
Dan LeFebvre
You mentioned the pilot there, and that leads right into the next question that I have, because in episode one, it kicks off with something that they call the Fuller Incident. Now, I’m going to assume that’s not necessarily the the same incident that you were referring to, because this in the show at least happens in Fargo, North Dakota, and it’s named after Lieutenant Henry Fuller, who is the pilot who gets into this dogfight with a flying saucer.

00:15:25:27 – 00:15:48:18
Dan LeFebvre
And according to the show, that was essentially the reason why they started Project Blue Book. But then after the investigation of the incident, Doctor Hynek concludes that the object the lieutenant was chasing was nothing more than a weather balloon. And you mentioned something similar to that. So was the fuller incident that we see in the show. That event that you were referring to, is that something else?

00:15:48:20 – 00:16:20:04
Rob Kristoffersen
No, that’s a little bit different. It has some of the hallmarks of the Thomas F Mantell case, but the Fuller incident is based directly on an incident called the Gorman dogfight. And, this involved a man by the name of George F Gorman, who was an Air National Guard pilot out of Fargo, North Dakota. And on October 1st, 1948, his squadron was returning from a flight at night, and Gorman decided he wanted to stay up in the air for a little bit, longer for some night flying practice.

00:16:20:04 – 00:16:42:06
Rob Kristoffersen
And after circling around a football stadium, this was around 9 p.m. that night. He was approaching Hector Airport and was notified by the tower that there was a Piper Cub plane below him. And, he was forced to circle the airport for a short period of time. And on one pass, he saw what he believed to be the tail light of another craft.

00:16:42:06 – 00:17:10:26
Rob Kristoffersen
Pass the cape, the Piper Cub plane on his right. It was white and color, blinking in intervals and approximately 6 to 8in in diameter. So this object was not registering on radar in any way. But, he went into an investigate it. And when Gorman made his approach, the light stopped blinking and basically just took off. And Gorman engage with the object.

00:17:10:26 – 00:17:40:28
Rob Kristoffersen
He pursued it. He found himself out, maneuvered basically at every turn, but was able to get behind it at one point. But when he did, the object basically turned around and flew straight in his direction. It passed right over his canopy and turned around to do it again. But before it seemingly was supposed to make impact, the light abruptly turned upward and shot straight up into the air.

00:17:41:01 – 00:18:04:22
Rob Kristoffersen
Now, Gorman attempted to pursue the object, but it was such a steep climb that his plane stalled out at 14,000ft. He was able to restart it, though, and landed. So, it’s not like it is. It’s depicted in the show. It’s the. He doesn’t crash the plane or anything, but, what makes this sighting so powerful is that there were numerous eyewitnesses to it.

00:18:04:29 – 00:18:28:05
Rob Kristoffersen
The two men manning the tower that night, Lloyd de Jensen and H. Johnson attested to the object’s fast speed, maneuverability, and the Piper Cub plane. The pilot of it, doctor A.E. cannon, also saw the light and testified to basically the same thing. And here’s a here’s a fun quote from, Mr. Gorman, quote.

00:18:28:05 – 00:19:08:18
Rob Kristoffersen
I am convinced that there was definite thought behind its maneuvering. I am further convinced that the object was governed by the laws of inertia, because its acceleration was rapid but not immediate, and although it was able to turn fairly tight at considerable speed, it still followed a natural curve. End quote. So this case was one of the Landmark Project’s nine cases, the other being The Test, the death of Thomas F Mantell, and another account known as the Child’s Weighted Account, which involved two civilian pilots that witness basically a long cigar shaped object fly alongside their plane at night.

00:19:08:21 – 00:19:18:01
Rob Kristoffersen
So that’s really what, that incident and, what that, episode was based on.

00:19:18:03 – 00:19:22:08
Dan LeFebvre
Sounds like movements that you would expect from a weather balloon. Right.

00:19:22:10 – 00:19:32:18
Rob Kristoffersen
Kind of. It kind of reminded me of, like, if you think about it, like, maybe like an alien playing with a laser pointer, you know, it’s it’s got those hallmarks there, I like that.

00:19:32:19 – 00:19:33:21
Sean Jablonski
Yeah.

00:19:33:23 – 00:19:36:03
Dan LeFebvre
There you go. And we’re just the cats following along, right.

00:19:36:05 – 00:19:37:13
Rob Kristoffersen
Absolutely.

00:19:37:15 – 00:19:57:13
Dan LeFebvre
Well, something that happened after this in the show was when Doctor Hynek used the term UFO for the first time. And, it was I thought this was funny because when he used it, the Captain Green character, you kind of looks at him as like a what? And then he goes on to explain, well, I’m kind of trying to coin this term to explain what we’re investigating.

00:19:57:16 – 00:20:02:13
Dan LeFebvre
Was he the one that actually coined the term UFO? And was it after that incident?

00:20:02:15 – 00:20:28:26
Rob Kristoffersen
No. Actually, the person that coined the term is it’s one of the people that coined is based on, Edward Rupert. He actually coined the term and early 52, he was looking for a different term because, flying saucer had such, negative, connotation associated with it. So he wanted a fresh term to go in with an unidentified flying object, is what he came up with.

00:20:28:28 – 00:20:36:25
Dan LeFebvre
I guess. Makes sense, too, because it’s not. You mentioned earlier a cigar shaped craft. They’re not always saucer shaped.

00:20:36:27 – 00:20:37:29
Rob Kristoffersen
No.

00:20:38:02 – 00:21:05:05
Dan LeFebvre
Now, in episode two of the show, Doctor Hynek and Captain Queen go to investigate a case in West Virginia where a mother and her children see something strange. And this is the case, according to the show called The Flatwoods Monster, because it’s not a flying saucer. This time or a UFO use that term, but it’s also involving a creature of some sort.

00:21:05:07 – 00:21:25:11
Dan LeFebvre
Maybe an alien creature. Well, that’s what Doctor Hynek and Captain Queen are there to find out. Ultimately, Doctor Hynek once again gives a rational explanation for the strange things that were seen. He stands up in front of the town and gives this speech. Captain Quinn and Doctor Hynek explained that the spaceship they saw was just a meteor.

00:21:25:14 – 00:21:47:00
Dan LeFebvre
The creature that they saw was a great horned owl. And Doctor Hynek goes on to give a scientific explanation about hot air and cold air, causing light to refract in different directions. It’s why stars twinkle and mirages are formed in the desert, according to his explanation. And it’s also how you can see an owl in a burning forest and think it’s a monster.

00:21:47:03 – 00:22:00:28
Dan LeFebvre
So that’s how the the movie or I’m sorry in the movie, the TV show sets up the flatwoods monster case. Was that a real investigation and how well did the show do explaining those events that happened?

00:22:01:00 – 00:22:30:04
Rob Kristoffersen
The flatwoods monster case was a real case that, took place in September of 1952. And it really is almost something out of a horror movie, especially when you look online at the images that were created once the eyewitnesses described what they were seeing. So, a group of kids, Eddie and Fred Mae and Tommy Heyer, witnessed this fireball in the sky in September of 1952.

00:22:30:07 – 00:22:55:29
Rob Kristoffersen
And they saw it go down in the forest. So they gathered a small group that included, the Mae’s mother and Gene Lemmon, who was a 17 year old National Guard member. And Lemmon led the charge into the into the forest. And they had first see what they believe was just two lights. But the more that they stare at them, the more that they realized that they look more like eyes.

00:22:56:02 – 00:23:23:29
Rob Kristoffersen
And then they see this large metallic looking creature that had, they described it like a spade behind its head, but it was completely red and apparently everyone in this group, which consisted of seven the seven people witnessed this creature. The town was kind of on edge a little bit, but not as bad as they depict it in the show.

00:23:24:01 – 00:23:54:09
Rob Kristoffersen
But, Project Blue Book really didn’t play much of a part in this case. This was really more investigated by civilian, UFO groups and, independent investigators. One of the most prominent was a an investigator named Gray Barker, who, did and investigated a number of cases, including the, famed Mothman flap in, West Virginia in 1966 and 1967.

00:23:54:11 – 00:24:32:06
Rob Kristoffersen
But basically all Project Blue Book did was looked at the, sighting of the object in the sky and just basically determined that it was a meteor. But they didn’t seem to acknowledge the creature at all in their, in their files. So, yeah, they didn’t really play much of a part, but, I did enjoy the depiction, of the way that they did things the skeptics have pointed to, an owl in a tree as being the culprit of this, but, I don’t necessarily pi that.

00:24:32:09 – 00:24:35:19
Dan LeFebvre
But it’s but it’s just, you know, the hot air and the cold air and.

00:24:35:21 – 00:24:36:02
Sean Jablonski
Well, the.

00:24:36:02 – 00:24:48:27
Rob Kristoffersen
Cool thing is the, when he’s talking about how stars twinkle, he was the astronomer that discovered how stars twinkle. So. Oh, it’s kind of fitting for him, you know?

00:24:48:29 – 00:24:58:00
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, well, that’s cool. I didn’t realize that. That they. I’m sure they they pulled that in as a as a little, little nugget there too, for somebody to find that cool.

00:24:58:03 – 00:25:25:22
Rob Kristoffersen
Or the, the cool thing about this show is that his children, Paul and I think another one of his children actually consult for the show. So it’s a lot more it’s it has its, you know, dramatic elements, but it’s, pretty accurate, as best as they have been able to contribute, there are some mannerisms that Aidan Gillen will do that, apparently are the same ones that Doctor Hynek would do.

00:25:25:22 – 00:25:54:04
Rob Kristoffersen
And, and, they’ve actually used like, personal items that, Jalen Hynek and maybe Hynek had for their characters in the show. So, you know, it’s a cool it’s a cool nod. And, the show is very respectful of his legacy. So I, I appreciate it for that because he is this really monumental figure in UFO research.

00:25:54:07 – 00:26:20:04
Dan LeFebvre
Well, let’s, continue on because there’s more episodes that we need to cover. After the flatwoods monster case, we see that Doctor Hynek is he’s taking his role very seriously, and he’s he’s really trying his best to come up with some scientific rationale behind both the faller incident and the flatwoods monster. But then the next case is the Lubbock Lights.

00:26:20:04 – 00:26:40:11
Dan LeFebvre
And that’s when things start to change as far as the show is concerned. And this is episode number three in the series. It’s the first time that both Captain Quinn and Doctor Hynek experienced something themselves. They’re out in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere, and Captain Quinn is inside the car and Doctor Hynek is outside of the car.

00:26:40:11 – 00:27:13:16
Dan LeFebvre
When the car just starts going crazy, lights are flashing, the radios tuning frequencies, the entire car is shaking, and then a massive V-shaped crack with blue lights fly over, and they both see it now in the show. General Harding and General Valentine in the military give Quinn and Hynek the explanation that what they saw was a top secret experimental craft that has a V shape wing, and they show some photos that look like they could be real from that time period.

00:27:13:18 – 00:27:38:12
Dan LeFebvre
But despite this explanation, Doctor Hynek doesn’t believe that this is true. Doesn’t really believe what the military is telling him. And so he’s starting to get the sense that perhaps he’s not getting the full story. At the very end of episode three, we see him writing in his notebook. He writes possible government cover up. So was the series correct?

00:27:38:12 – 00:27:49:27
Dan LeFebvre
And showing that Doctor Hynek started to have experiences of his own that he couldn’t explain around the time of the Lubbock Lights? And did he start to suspect that he wasn’t being fed the full story from the Air Force?

00:27:49:29 – 00:28:15:20
Rob Kristoffersen
Hynek, as far as I know, never witnessed a UFO while investigating any cases during Project Blue Book. There’s a really great biography of him called The Close Encounters Man by Mark O’Connell, and in it he talks about a sighting that he may have had while looking, through a telescope. He claimed he saw, like a strange object, fly over the face of the moon or something like that.

00:28:15:20 – 00:28:56:17
Rob Kristoffersen
But, he never had an overt UFO experience during his time. In regards to what the Air Force was letting him in on, Hynek was the one of the people that was on the inside. So it they never really kept anything from him. If anything, he knew things that he couldn’t really talk about. And, in 1953, there was a CIA led panel called the Robertson Panel, which basically came in, and the reason why they came in, we’ll, it’ll be coming up later in, in the line of questioning.

00:28:56:17 – 00:29:32:19
Rob Kristoffersen
And then it pertains to an episode like the last episode in the season. But they came in, they assessed the work of, Project Bluebook, and they basically determined that, like Project Grudge, they had to now downplay reports in order to keep the public calm. So, in order to prevent mass hysteria, they were going to have to misidentify things and, essentially Project Blue Book from 1953 onwards became Project Grudge all over again.

00:29:32:21 – 00:30:17:15
Rob Kristoffersen
But Hynek was there. He was he was doing the best that he could. He couldn’t really come forward and say what he wanted and not. Or he would be losing access to the Project Blue Book Files, which at the time were the best place to get UFO files from. There weren’t civilian organizations as of yet. They would pop up not long after, but, essentially in 53, that was a turning point for Hynek, where he had started to change from this total skeptic there to debunk reports to, okay, now I’m being told that I can’t do my job properly.

00:30:17:20 – 00:30:41:23
Rob Kristoffersen
I don’t like this, so I don’t really trust the CIA at this point. And, he would essentially go through this metamorphosis over time where he would become a believer in the phenomenon. So the way that they kind of depict it in the show, his turn doesn’t happen that quickly, but, it does it does happen over time.

00:30:41:25 – 00:30:57:08
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Yeah. It sounds like they, again, we see this a lot in movies and TV shows where they simplified it. It sounds like they just gave him an experience. Instead of trying to explain the CIA panel and all of these other, aspects, perhaps.

00:30:57:10 – 00:31:26:11
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah. Absolutely. And, the Lubbock Lights photographs are real photographs. I do believe the ones they show in the actual episode are the real Lubbock Light photographs. And, that case took place in early 51. That was during the transitionary period from when Rupert was coming in. But, that was a case that stumped a lot of people.

00:31:26:13 – 00:31:50:18
Rob Kristoffersen
There were scientists that studied it, and, the the individual that actually took the photographs. He was a student, I do believe, at one of the universities. They took these photographs over a couple different nights, but they essentially show a group of lights in an arrow type shape, in passing over the skies of Lubbock, Texas.

00:31:50:18 – 00:31:55:19
Rob Kristoffersen
It’s, it’s really fascinating case. Then, go look up those photos online.

00:31:55:19 – 00:31:56:20
Sean Jablonski
They’re fun.

00:31:56:22 – 00:32:14:26
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. And in, in the show, don’t they kind of pass it off as possibly a flock of birds or something like that, reflecting off lights. Was that a, an excuse or a, natural reason that was kind of thrown around there as one of the possibilities.

00:32:14:29 – 00:32:42:22
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah, that was an actual reason that, investigators pinned, and they did end up doing a test and taking photographs. And what happened was you could see one speck of light from one bird. There wasn’t enough, reflection to actually pick it up. So it’s not clear exactly what the Lubbock lights were. They actually traveled quite fast.

00:32:42:25 – 00:32:51:11
Rob Kristoffersen
They determined, when they flew over them, that they were traveling at somewhere near 1800 miles an hour or so. Pretty sure birds can’t do that.

00:32:51:18 – 00:32:55:04
Sean Jablonski
Not many birds that they come across. Okay.

00:32:55:06 – 00:32:58:21
Dan LeFebvre
I hope not. At least that would be, the fast flying birds.

00:32:58:24 – 00:32:59:08
Rob Kristoffersen
That is a.

00:32:59:08 – 00:33:02:14
Sean Jablonski
Flat like work.

00:33:02:16 – 00:33:33:02
Dan LeFebvre
Well, the the next episode, episode number four, brings in Operation Paperclip. And this is when we’re introduced to Verner von Braun. He is a former Nazi who built the V-2 rocket and post-World War II two. He’s heading up America’s space program. So Doctor Quinn and or. I’m sorry, doctor Hynek and Captain Quinn get a firsthand look at von Braun’s work, as they think that maybe one of the UFOs that they’re investigating is just one of his rockets, and it’s a top secret rocket.

00:33:33:04 – 00:34:00:17
Dan LeFebvre
So during this on the show, von Braun pulls Doctor Hynek aside and offers him a job to work with him. But Doctor Hynek doesn’t trust the former Nazi. I wonder why. But then, regardless, von Braun tells Doctor Hynek that he can’t explain the sightings. He knows about anybody. He can’t explain them. And then at the end of the episode, we see von Braun overseeing a test with an American pilot being forced into a giant flying saucer.

00:34:00:19 – 00:34:23:12
Dan LeFebvre
And as the saucer starts to take off, there’s some massive rings rotating around it. Obviously, you know, we have some effects going on there and then, you know, poof, it just disappears. And then von Braun simply says it worked like he’s not. The IT show is implying that he’s working on a lot more than just rockets. Can you give us an overview of Operation Paperclip?

00:34:23:12 – 00:34:31:26
Dan LeFebvre
And did Project Bluebook cross with paperclip and take Doctor Hynek to meet up with, Verner von Braun?

00:34:31:28 – 00:34:33:12
Sean Jablonski
So.

00:34:33:15 – 00:35:02:21
Rob Kristoffersen
For Operation Paperclip? Basically, as World War Two was winding down, American, British and Russian forces were racing to scour Germany for military resources, technological advances and anything that they could get their hands on that the Germans may have created, the Germans at the time were known for, really high technological advances, especially in, in rocketry.

00:35:02:23 – 00:35:30:17
Rob Kristoffersen
And, the allies actually discovered a list called the Ozen Berg List that contain the names of every single scientist, that had worked for the Third Reich. Funny enough, they found it in a toilet. So let’s take that for what you will. Okay. The allies, essentially tracked down 1600 scientists and brought them to America. The OSS, the sponge, expunge their records.

00:35:30:19 – 00:36:04:29
Rob Kristoffersen
So they were basically given a slate clean slate to work for the government. And the most infamous individual was, Wernher von Braun. And he is basically the father of modern rocketry. He designed the V-2 rocket, and he was instrumental for us, in the space race. He pretty much got us to the moon. So, I got to say, Dan, I didn’t really expect to find anything because I didn’t think that Hynek had done anything with V-2 rockets or had met Wernher von Braun.

00:36:04:29 – 00:36:21:15
Rob Kristoffersen
But, you brought out the best to me, Dan. So I got to thank you for that. Now, I discovered this blog post on, I think it was Ohio Moo Funds website. And let me tell you, this website looks like it’s from the 90s. I love it.

00:36:21:18 – 00:36:23:13
Sean Jablonski
Hey, nice.

00:36:23:15 – 00:36:55:16
Rob Kristoffersen
And it was written by John Hynek secretary, a woman named Jenny Zeeman, and apparently Hynek worked on V-2 rockets while at White Sands Missile Range after the war. Now, he had imagined he had allegedly met Wernher von Braun at that time. But nothing. Nobody has ever come forward with this information like it’s not even in his biography. And even Heinrich’s closest friends do not know anything about this.

00:36:55:18 – 00:37:07:18
Rob Kristoffersen
So, yeah, apparently he may have worked on, V-2 rockets at one point. So, Yeah, that that’s new information to me, man. So good job.

00:37:07:21 – 00:37:18:07
Dan LeFebvre
Wow. Yeah. No, I mean, there are two high profile characters. I mean, I’m I’m not intimately familiar with Von Braun, but he’s kind of the the face.

00:37:18:07 – 00:37:19:19
Rob Kristoffersen
Of.

00:37:19:22 – 00:37:42:03
Dan LeFebvre
The US after the war, getting a lot of of Nazi scientists to to work on American technology. And for me, he was always kind of the face of that. So when I saw them together on the show, I knew that was something I had to ask, like, did they actually meet each other? Or is this just a show, having two names that people might recognize and using it as an excuse to put those two together?

00:37:42:06 – 00:37:47:15
Rob Kristoffersen
Right. Yeah. And, apparently they did cross cross paths at one point.

00:37:47:18 – 00:38:05:29
Dan LeFebvre
Well, speaking of crossing paths with names, I’m going to ask you another one here, because in the show there’s one point where Doctor Hynek tells Captain Quinn, as you know, he doesn’t trust Von Braun. And he’s like, you know, how do you make a Nazi look legitimate? You have Walt Disney give him his own special and Beemer right into your living room.

00:38:06:01 – 00:38:13:13
Dan LeFebvre
And we see this happen on the show. Did Von Braun and Walt Disney actually team up for a TV special?

00:38:13:15 – 00:38:37:24
Rob Kristoffersen
Oh, yeah, a number of times. The first time was on an episode, what they called Disneyland back at that time. Today, you would know it as the wonderful world of Disney and he appeared on screen to talk about plans for the American government to go to the moon. So, he would also appear in a number of Disney specials after that.

00:38:37:24 – 00:38:51:01
Rob Kristoffersen
So Wernher von Braun was the face, early on of the for the space race. So, yeah, he definitely did team up with, Walt Disney a time or two.

00:38:51:03 – 00:39:17:05
Dan LeFebvre
Wow. That’s that’s fascinating. Wow. Okay, so moving on to the next episode. This is episode number five, and it’s entitled Foo Fighters. And in this episode, we see that Lieutenant Fuller from the very first episode, he’s back. And this time he’s in a group of people who have experienced something similar to him. You know, lights in the sky, maybe not the exact same thing as him, but they’re all similar experiences.

00:39:17:07 – 00:39:46:02
Dan LeFebvre
And Captain Quinn explains the title of the show. He explains that during World War Two, pilots would see lights that they couldn’t explain, and they called them Foo Fighters. That’s why they named the episode that. But in the episode, Lieutenant Fuller and his group of experiencers show Doctor Hynek and Captain Quinn the lights themselves. They bring out this contraption that they’ve built, and they seem to be able to call the lights, to them.

00:39:46:05 – 00:40:12:11
Dan LeFebvre
But Doctor Hynek is quick to dismiss these as just car truck headlights bouncing off the fog in the distance. They’re not really calling them to them. And then at the end of the episode, Doctor Hynek runs across Fuller at a secret hospital in Cedar Rapids, Iowa that’s now abandoned. And Doctor Hynek shows Fuller something and almost immediately, Fuller douses himself in gasoline and sets himself on fire.

00:40:12:13 – 00:40:37:24
Dan LeFebvre
Now, after this, the show cuts to General Harding and General Valentine. This is very stereotypical, secret government. They’re just kind of sitting around this table in, you know, very dark room and just kind of what you would expect for a secret military government, I guess. But, but they talk about how somebody or something must have flipped Fuller’s off switch, whatever that means.

00:40:37:25 – 00:41:01:03
Dan LeFebvre
It doesn’t really explain a lot right there. It just says, oh, it must have flipped him off, which sounds like something else, but that’s. But, in the show, they said, flip the off switch. Now, when I was watching this episode, it was one of the first episodes that I was thinking, am maybe this really wasn’t based on something real.

00:41:01:06 – 00:41:24:27
Dan LeFebvre
After all, the episode itself was claiming that Foo Fighters were was a term used in World War Two, and this is, after all, after World War Two. And so I just assumed that maybe this was the show stretching things, and I got the implication just watching the show, that Doctor Hynek probably never actually investigated Foo Fighters because those were during World War Two.

00:41:24:27 – 00:41:32:03
Dan LeFebvre
And this is supposed to be happening after World War two. Or am I wrong there? Did he actually investigate Foo Fighters like we see in the show?

00:41:32:05 – 00:42:04:25
Rob Kristoffersen
He did not investigate Foo Fighters. He was really busy working on the proximity fuze by that time. But, Foo Fighters were a real phenomenon during the war. And it was experienced by both Allied pilots and axis pilots, and they both believed that this was, technology from both sides being thrown at planes. But, that’s kind of confusing because like, clearly it’s not none of them, you know, claimed responsibility for it.

00:42:04:27 – 00:42:33:17
Rob Kristoffersen
And, if we’re talking about, like, the Germans, the Germans would totally take responsibility for that back in the day. There’s no way that they wouldn’t. But yeah, the Hynek never investigated the Foo Fighters. There wasn’t really a lot of, resources to investigate the Foo Fighters at the time. They there was a brief investigation done by American forces, but they couldn’t come to any definitive conclusion.

00:42:33:17 – 00:42:49:11
Rob Kristoffersen
But, yeah. Doctor Hynek, he was working on that proximity fuze, which I do believe time magazine ranked it as the third best innovation to come from the Second World War.

00:42:49:14 – 00:42:51:04
Dan LeFebvre
What is the proximity fuze?

00:42:51:07 – 00:43:14:08
Rob Kristoffersen
Basically, it’s a fuze that sends out radio waves. And when the radio waves bounce off something and come back and that signal gets shorter and shorter, the bomb basically explodes and realistically, you see that same technology in, like, noise cancellation headphones. Now.

00:43:14:11 – 00:43:16:00
Dan LeFebvre
We have Doctor Hynek to thank for that.

00:43:16:02 – 00:43:17:18
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah.

00:43:17:21 – 00:43:42:25
Dan LeFebvre
So I’m curious though, because in the in the show, when we see Lieutenant Fuller, his off switch flipped or whatever happens there and he it’s a very tragic death. It you know, he sets himself on fire. But if his experience was based on, a pilot named Gorman, I believe you said, was that what essentially what happened to Gorman?

00:43:42:27 – 00:43:57:28
Rob Kristoffersen
No. There’s not a lot known about Gorman, but he seemingly lived a normal life after the Gorman dogfight. He served in the, forces for a little bit longer, and then, went off and did his own thing.

00:43:58:00 – 00:44:26:24
Dan LeFebvre
Okay, well, the next investigation in the show covers green fireballs. They’re sighted over a nuclear testing ground. And Project Bluebook is called in to verify that these are, in fact, meteors, a perfectly natural explanation. But something happens during the investigation, and Doctor Hynek sees the fireballs in the sky himself. And they are very clearly not meteors. Now, with another super secretive character on screen.

00:44:26:27 – 00:44:47:00
Dan LeFebvre
Man, that is simply cast. I had to look them up afterwards, he just to see if he had an actual name. But they just call him the Fixer. He shows up and, Doctor Hynek theorizes out loud that perhaps the green fireballs are some sort of craft monitoring our nuclear testing sites, because that’s where they were seen.

00:44:47:03 – 00:44:53:23
Dan LeFebvre
Can you give us an overview of the the real event that this episode had based on and what Doctor Heinrich’s reaction was to it?

00:44:53:25 – 00:45:23:04
Rob Kristoffersen
Sure. In November of 1948, reports started to trickle in, out in the west of of the phenomenon known as green fireballs. They were at first quickly dismissed as green military flares, but on the night of December 5th, 1948, two separate plane crews, one military and one civilian, in New Mexico, each attested to seeing a green fireball while in the air.

00:45:23:06 – 00:45:41:29
Rob Kristoffersen
Each of them described the object resembling a green meteor, but ruled out meteors when the object basically abruptly turned, turned up, and then leveled off, which I’ve never heard of a meteor doing. But, you know, the those fancy meteors, they just do what they want these days.

00:45:42:00 – 00:45:44:10
Dan LeFebvre
Well, you’ve never heard of birds that fly that fast either, so.

00:45:44:10 – 00:45:46:10
Sean Jablonski
No meaning.

00:45:46:13 – 00:46:17:04
Rob Kristoffersen
So, three days after that sighting on the eighth to Air Force Office of Special Investigations, pilots witnessed similar phenomena while they were in the air. And they described it as resembling a military flare. But it was too big and it was a lot brighter. And then four days after that, a man by the name of Doctor Lincoln LaPaz, he was an astronomer with the University of New Mexico, had his own sighting of the green fireballs.

00:46:17:04 – 00:46:40:29
Rob Kristoffersen
A lot of people were seeing them in and around military bases in New Mexico, mostly. And, he basically was able to triangulate their position over Los Alamos National Laboratory. And in a letter to the Air Force, he stated that they could not be a meteor because it was traveling too slow at the time, and it didn’t have a tail coming off of it.

00:46:41:02 – 00:47:14:19
Rob Kristoffersen
So those sightings would continue from, yeah, November of 1948 until April of 1949, and most of them were centered in New Mexico. Now, Doctor LaPaz was tasked by the government to study the phenomenon. So it wasn’t carried out by this would have been, Project Grudge at this point. Went from project sign to Project Grudge. But the military was growing concerned that this was, foreign weapon, which could, you know, would make sense for them.

00:47:14:21 – 00:47:39:28
Rob Kristoffersen
It seems weapon like. So, a lot of their top secret projects were also conducted in New Mexico. So it makes sense that they would be, interested in it. And there were also similar objects sited over nuclear storage areas in Fort Hood, Texas. So, Doctor LaPaz determined that whatever these objects were, they were not natural.

00:47:39:29 – 00:48:16:00
Rob Kristoffersen
Most, or. Yeah, they were not natural. Most of the sightings were centered. Yeah, really in Los Alamos National Laboratory and many of the staff there, he interviewed and many of them claimed to see these green fireballs. Now, the sightings would become more sporadic after April of 49, but, they still continued on to the point where, in December of 1950, the government decided to set up an instrument observation station at Holloman Air Force Base, and it was only manned by two officers.

00:48:16:00 – 00:48:22:23
Rob Kristoffersen
But they, classified this project as Project Twinkle.

00:48:22:25 – 00:48:57:09
Rob Kristoffersen
So, LaPaz, you know, had other ideas. He felt like this deserved a more rigorous study. And ultimately, when the government was done in 1950, they would downplay the sightings in their final report. But the sightings still continued on after that for a little while. Every witness that saw them claimed that it could not have been a natural phenomenon, which is, you know, rare because you’re talking about trained observers, scientists and the such.

00:48:57:11 – 00:49:20:17
Rob Kristoffersen
Another fun fact about Doctor LaPaz. He had an earlier UFO sighting in 1947. And it was in Roswell, New Mexico. So he may have witnessed the actual Roswell craft crash, maybe, I don’t know, but, it’s just an interesting little tidbit there, but, Hynek, we’re not really sure of what Hynek thought about these.

00:49:20:17 – 00:49:37:27
Rob Kristoffersen
We’ve never gotten any comments from him about it. And the investigation wasn’t carried out by Project Sign or Grudge. It was something that the government was trying to keep under wraps. So, yeah, not really sure what happened and what Hynek thought there.

00:49:38:00 – 00:50:03:26
Dan LeFebvre
Do we know if there were many other, cases like that that were outside of Project Sign or garage or Bluebook? I guess I’m assuming that those projects were the kind of the official official government investigation. And it sounds like this one was kind of, and off the books. Not really. I mean official, but not really official, if that makes sense.

00:50:03:26 – 00:50:10:22
Dan LeFebvre
You know, in that way, to kind of not throw it in with all the others where there are a lot of other cases like that that we know of.

00:50:10:24 – 00:50:42:11
Rob Kristoffersen
Not really. There isn’t a lot of declassified information that I’ve ever come across that really points to additional, government studies. Though Hynek later in his career, after really Project Bluebook was shuttered, he would make these comments that he was like the public face of like the UFO investigations, but he always made it seem like there was something else going on behind the scenes that the public didn’t know.

00:50:42:11 – 00:50:46:21
Rob Kristoffersen
So there’s a possibility that there are projects that we don’t even know about.

00:50:46:24 – 00:50:47:15
Dan LeFebvre
Of course.

00:50:47:17 – 00:50:49:14
Sean Jablonski
Yeah. Okay.

00:50:49:16 – 00:51:11:29
Dan LeFebvre
Well, moving on to the next episode. We’re up to episode number seven, and we come across the first hoax in this series. And according to the show, it’s with a Boy Scout troop leader who claims to see a UFO and even claims to shoot at it and hit the alien that comes out of the craft. And for some time, the Scoutmaster disappears.

00:51:12:03 – 00:51:35:03
Dan LeFebvre
But then he staggers back into town, just as Doctor Hynek is explaining that the lights that they saw were caused by swamp gas. And before long, though, Doctor Hynek and Captain Quinn are able to figure out that the town’s sheriff sent a telegram to Hollywood about having proof about the flying saucer story. And that happened before the scoutmaster came back into town with that proof.

00:51:35:03 – 00:51:49:00
Dan LeFebvre
So it would seem that the sheriff and the Scoutmaster were in on this, trying to make a bunch of money on, what clearly was a hoax, trying to sell the movie rights. Did this hoax really happen the way that we see in the show?

00:51:49:03 – 00:52:17:24
Rob Kristoffersen
Man, this is one of my all time favorite cases. This is a really fun one. This is the case of a Florida scoutmaster by the name of Sunny divergence uncorked on August 19th, 1952. Divergence was, driving a group of Boy Scouts home, when he saw a bright light flash over. It’s a trail called Military Trail near West Palm Beach, Florida.

00:52:17:27 – 00:52:42:19
Rob Kristoffersen
He thought it could have been a stranded motorist or a plane that had gone down. So he pulled over onto the shoulder and basically went in to investigate. He told the three boys that, he was driving home to remain in the car, and he basically took a machete and a, flashlight with him, and he instructed the boys to run to the farmhouse that was nearby.

00:52:42:19 – 00:53:09:21
Rob Kristoffersen
If he didn’t come back in 15 minutes or so from the car, the boys claimed that they could see like a ring of lights, descending into a grove of trees. And they could also see, the flashlight as well. And when they saw that his flashlight had gone out, the boys ran to the farmhouse, and soon an officer arrived on scene and they were, about to commence a search.

00:53:09:24 – 00:53:38:23
Rob Kristoffersen
And it had been an hour or so, but divergence emerged from the, palmettos and was frantically waving his machete in the air and just, like, raving like a mad man. But, according to his testimony, he had been searching for about four minutes when he started to smell this nauseating odor. He also said that you felt like he was being watched, and he next claimed to feel this really intense heat that was coming down from above him.

00:53:38:23 – 00:54:03:12
Rob Kristoffersen
And when he looked up, he could not see the stars above him. There was this object that was just hovering over him, and it was, he described it as a dull black object in the shape of a saucer approximately 30ft in diameter. Divergence moved back from the object. And when he did, he claimed to hear this metallic scraping sound.

00:54:03:14 – 00:54:31:07
Rob Kristoffersen
And when he looked up again, there was this hatch that was opened on the side of the object. He noticed a red light coming from the inside it, and it soon developed into a mist that engulfed his body. And, the divergence lost consciousness not long after that, and he woke up a short time later and he was propped up against a tree, but he couldn’t really remember propping himself up against a tree.

00:54:31:09 – 00:54:57:17
Rob Kristoffersen
And his eyes were apparently so burned that he couldn’t see out of them. But, divergence underwent questioning with the local police, and they had noticed that the hairs on his arms were actually singed. So, they also went back to the area of where it where it occurred, and they discovered burnt patches of grass on the ground.

00:54:57:19 – 00:55:27:02
Rob Kristoffersen
Now, when Project Bluebook was notified, Edward Ruppel went to investigate and he took samples and then had them tested. They found that the soil had only been burnt at the top. So whatever had happened to them, it wasn’t some kind of natural rot from underneath that or anything like that. But Rupert would come to call this entire case a hoax, and in fact, he would call divergence the best hoax or that he had ever seen.

00:55:27:04 – 00:55:47:22
Rob Kristoffersen
He was painted as media hungry and also an opportunist willing to sell his story. But the problem was, is that they were never able to explain how he did it. They were never able to explain the burnt patches of grass, or like they couldn’t explain anything that this guy did. They just did hoax.

00:55:47:24 – 00:55:57:29
Dan LeFebvre
Oh, wow. Okay, so even after the investigation, they’re just like, we’re not going to even bother to try to figure out exactly what happened here. Just assume that he’s he’s hosting it.

00:55:58:01 – 00:56:24:06
Rob Kristoffersen
It those kind of cases. And they were very rare at the time like case cases, something very extreme. It’s on the level of like, a flatwoods monster kind of incident. And the government didn’t really want to get involved with cases like that. And you would see, from time to time that, if they were reported, they would downplay them almost immediately.

00:56:24:06 – 00:56:30:12
Rob Kristoffersen
So, yeah, the government really didn’t want to talk about weird cases like that.

00:56:30:15 – 00:56:52:25
Dan LeFebvre
I’m curious, though, because one of the things that we see in the show, I mentioned very briefly, but, is when Doctor Hynek is when he’s explaining lights, he uses that says it was, caused by swamp gas. And that’s I have to ask about that because it’s something that I’m familiar with from, that movie Men in Black, of course, because they use that an explanation of, you know, swamp gas.

00:56:52:25 – 00:57:05:19
Dan LeFebvre
You know, that’s pretty much the explanation for UFOs. And so I think it’s something that’s kind of caught on in popular culture as a common explanation for UFOs. Was that really an explanation that started with Project Bluebook?

00:57:05:21 – 00:57:32:15
Rob Kristoffersen
It mostly started with Hynek. One of the most infamous investigations that he did occurred in Michigan in 1966, in the Dexter Hillsdale area, for approximately a week, sightings had been taking place in that area. It began on, March 14th, of 66. The police and Washtenaw County first witness strange lights in the sky over, Lima Township.

00:57:32:17 – 00:57:56:10
Rob Kristoffersen
And they chased these lights for a period of time. But, they were outmaneuvered every single time they tried. And throughout the week, people in Washtenaw County reported seeing similar objects in the sky. Some went on to report them as resembling like a spinning top. But the culmination of these sightings occurred two nights, later that week, on March 20th.

00:57:56:12 – 00:58:20:06
Rob Kristoffersen
Frank Manor of Dexter Township reportedly saw a strange object in the swamp behind his home. He described it resembling a pyramid with a porthole on it, from which this bluish green light was emitting. And then the next night, at nearby Hillsdale College, over 80 female students witnessed a strange light rising and falling in a swamp near their dorm.

00:58:20:09 – 00:58:49:28
Rob Kristoffersen
Hynek was sent to investigate that case and was basically forced to conduct a rushed investigation. He didn’t have a lot of time and, was forced to give a press conference. One of the witnesses in that case had mentioned that at first, because they ended up witnessing what the girls did at the college dorm room in Hillsdale believed it to be at first swamp gas, which is a real phenomenon.

00:58:49:28 – 00:59:45:07
Rob Kristoffersen
Basically, what happens in a swamp is when vegetation is dying, it will release methane into the air. And sometimes, you’ll basically see like a, short flash of light that it creates. So Hynek basically was forced to say that what happened in Dexter Hillsdale was swamp gas, and he was ridiculed heavily for it. And in fact, it was his determination on that case that really shuttered Project Bluebook toward the end, because what happened was, I believe he was governor at the time, Gerald Ford, he was not happy with the determination that Hynek came to and basically ordered for a panel and an independent panel of people to investigate UFO sightings.

00:59:45:07 – 01:00:17:04
Rob Kristoffersen
And this led to the Condon Committee, a, group of scientists out of the University of Colorado that studied UFOs for a couple of years and ultimately determined that, UFOs were not a threat to national security. In fact, they couldn’t determine what they were at all. And, that was the end of Project Blue Book. So the swamp gas thing is essentially Doctor Hynek probably most fumbling move during his time at Project Blue Book.

01:00:17:06 – 01:00:48:07
Dan LeFebvre
Going back to the TV show, the Nixon investigation that we see when I was when I was watching this, it really started to turn the entire series a little more sinister in my mind. It gave the idea that the military is trying to cover up some psychological tests that they’re doing on their own soldiers. We see a group of Army soldiers who got a UFO attack on the platoon on film, and we’re watching this.

01:00:48:09 – 01:01:11:20
Dan LeFebvre
Doctor Hynek is watching this, and the and the military is watching this. And that’s kind of the what kicks off the investigation. But then in the end, we find out that the soldiers were shell shocked from experiences in World War Two. And at the end of the episode, there’s a scene where the two generals, Harding and Valentine, are upset that the Secretary of Defense has been testing chemical weapons on their own.

01:01:11:20 – 01:01:15:15
Dan LeFebvre
Soldiers. How much of that actually happened?

01:01:15:18 – 01:01:52:09
Rob Kristoffersen
This incident is based on testimony from a private first class named Francis P wall during the Korean War. This is like one of the most harrowing tales that, you will ever hear. And there’s some really messed up stories from, soldiers during a war about UFOs and such. And, while was stationed near shore, one which, is was roughly 60 miles from Seoul, and his regiment was prepared to bombard a nearby village with artillery.

01:01:52:09 – 01:02:22:22
Rob Kristoffersen
And right before the attack was set to take place, this UFO appeared in the sky right above the village, and, they just started firing off. Artillery burst after artillery burst and, there were shells that exploded right next to this object, but it didn’t seem to take a hit. And, at the time, the object was emitting an orange light and it just was hovering over the village.

01:02:22:24 – 01:02:51:24
Rob Kristoffersen
That’s when wall basically asked his commander for permission to fire at this thing. And when permission was granted, everybody opened fire. The object changed to a blue green color. And it started to make these eerie arcs in the sky. And then it started to shoot beams at these people. They all reported feeling a burning and tingling sensation as the beams of light were shown at them, and were all forced into underground bunkers at the time.

01:02:51:24 – 01:03:24:28
Rob Kristoffersen
They had to take refuge from what this whatever this thing was, most of the men were trucked out by ambulance. They were actually too weak to walk. And doctors, once they got back to a hospital, noted how all of their white blood cell counts were really high. So, they never explained what happened to these men. Some have pointed to, like, a Soviet weapons test, but even that’s kind of out of the realm of possibility, even for me.

01:03:25:00 – 01:03:46:06
Rob Kristoffersen
As far as we know, it wasn’t a government chemical weapons test, but I wouldn’t put it past the government to have done that at any point in history. Like the the government has done some shady stuff in the past. If you want a, a good example of that, there’s a, book that came out, last year.

01:03:46:06 – 01:04:17:11
Rob Kristoffersen
It’s called Poisoner in Chief, and it’s all about a, one scientist’s work during, a project called MK ultra. He was basically tasked with, seeing what if they could use LSD? To basically as a form of mind control. It was a very is a very dark project for the government. So, I really wouldn’t put it past it at any point for the government to have done tests like that.

01:04:17:18 – 01:04:28:04
Rob Kristoffersen
There was the Tuskegee experiment, which I really don’t want to get into, because it was some pretty sick stuff. But yeah, I, I really wouldn’t put it past the government to have done tests like that at some point.

01:04:28:06 – 01:04:29:12
Sean Jablonski
Wow, wow.

01:04:29:14 – 01:04:52:07
Dan LeFebvre
Well, let’s get back to the show then, instead of getting even darker. But, yeah. So in episode nine, Doctor Hynek and Captain Quinn come across their first abduction case. And this is the case of someone named Thomas Mann, who claims that he was abducted by aliens. And there’s a few key things from that episode of the show that I want to get your insight on.

01:04:52:09 – 01:05:25:20
Dan LeFebvre
First is during this episode is when we see Doctor Hynek hypnotize Thomas to help him remember more about the abduction experience. Now, through hypnosis, Thomas is able to remember things that he couldn’t remember otherwise. When I saw this, it hit me that this is similar to what we talked about when we covered the movie communion. When you were a guest on the show to talk about what these strippers experience, there, and I, I wasn’t sure if Doctor Hynek kind of started that idea.

01:05:25:20 – 01:05:46:17
Dan LeFebvre
We get the when I was watching, Project Blue Book, I got the idea that nobody was really familiar with using hypnosis in that way. When he’s using this on on Thomas Mann. So was Doctor Hynek using hypnosis in his investigations? And was he one of the first to do that for abductees?

01:05:46:19 – 01:06:12:22
Rob Kristoffersen
So this episode is loosely based on the Betty and Barney Hill incident, which is, an incident that we recently covered on, a two part episode. And, essentially this New Hampshire couple reported having a close encounter with a strange object within the White Mountains. At one point, Barney had this dramatic sighting in a field, of this object through a pair of binoculars.

01:06:12:25 – 01:06:47:27
Rob Kristoffersen
He claimed to have telepathic communication with the occupants of this UFO. And they also claimed to have, suffered from missing time during this encounter, too. There was, period of time that they just couldn’t account for. They started to conduct their own investigation almost immediately after coming home. And, they read books voraciously, talked to experts, you know, from scientists to UFO investigators, until they ultimately decided that they wanted to explore their experiences through hypnosis.

01:06:48:00 – 01:07:12:24
Rob Kristoffersen
And they ultimately found this individual named Doctor Benjamin Simon. He was a Boston based hypnotherapist and through their work with him, uncovered an abduction narrative that involved the hills being taken on board a UFO, subjected to medical tests, and then returned to their car. Now, Doctor Benjamin Simon, was, pretty heavy hitter when it came to hypnosis.

01:07:12:24 – 01:07:41:01
Rob Kristoffersen
He set up a hospital, and I believe it was Long Island to treat soldiers coming home. From the war, from World War two with, with, all sorts of, mental problems, basically treating soldiers with PTSD before PTSD was known as anything. And he would use hypnosis to do that. Doctor Simon was the first to hypnotize an abduction witness.

01:07:41:06 – 01:08:07:09
Rob Kristoffersen
Hynek didn’t really do that. He did advocate for it in a couple of cases, but, he was, not a trained hypnotist in any way. The, probably the most infamous person to start doing this within the UFO community was a gentleman by the name of Doctor Leo Sprinkle. And, he used hypnosis on a number of, witnesses.

01:08:07:11 – 01:08:33:04
Rob Kristoffersen
And then later on in the 80s, man by the name of Doctor or not? Doctor, just, Bud Hopkins, he was a, New York based artist. He kind of put abduction cases on the map in the 80s by conducting hypnosis sessions and, working with, experiencers. So, yeah, Doctor Hynek never practiced, hypnosis in.

01:08:33:04 – 01:08:33:29
Rob Kristoffersen
Anyway.

01:08:34:01 – 01:08:54:15
Dan LeFebvre
Something else I want to ask you about with that, episode was when we see Doctor Hynek talk about this, a scale that he’s been working on. How’s it, close encounter. The first kind of close encounter. The second kind. Well, that’s what happened to Thomas. Their abduction, and then close Encounters of the Third Kind being even beyond that.

01:08:54:18 – 01:09:03:23
Dan LeFebvre
And that’s a term that I think we’re familiar with it from nothing else. The movie, was was that a scale that Doctor Hynek invented?

01:09:03:26 – 01:09:28:08
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah. Doctor Hynek did invent, that scale. It’s what we call the, Hynek scale these days. There were actually six classifications. The first was a nocturnal light, which is basically your mundane sighting of a UFO at night. And then there is what he called the daylight disc, which is a sighting of an object during the day from more than 1000ft away.

01:09:28:10 – 01:09:56:13
Rob Kristoffersen
Then there is a radar visual sighting, which, is primarily, you know, witnessed by civilians and military pilots. It’s basically when a pilot sees something and it’s confirmed by radar data. And then, we get to the heavy hitters, close encounter, the first kind of the sighting of an object from approximately 1000ft away or less, close encounters of the second kind is a sighting, where an object leaves a physical trace of some kind.

01:09:56:13 – 01:10:24:27
Rob Kristoffersen
So in the Florida scoutmaster case, there was the burnt grass. And even in the Betty and Barney Hill case, there was, really strange readings that they got from their car on the back trunk. They noticed these semicircle, these circles, about a half dollar size that they don’t know where they where it came from. And, they ended up testing the trunk with a compass, and they found that it was magnetized.

01:10:24:27 – 01:10:56:22
Rob Kristoffersen
So that was a physical trace case. And then a close encounter of the third kind is when an object is an object is seen in an occupant of that object to scene. So some kind of humanoid being is seen at the same time. And the interesting thing about, the film Close Encounters of the Third Kind is that, when Steven Spielberg was working on that and he wanted to use that title, he actually had to go through J.L. and Hynek because that was his copyrighted title.

01:10:56:22 – 01:11:04:09
Rob Kristoffersen
So JL and Hynek ended up consulting on, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, and he even has a cameo at the end.

01:11:04:12 – 01:11:11:20
Dan LeFebvre
Oh, nice. Nice. I’ll have to watch that again and and look for him. I don’t remember, because I don’t know that I would be able to pick him out without finding a photo, but.

01:11:11:22 – 01:11:18:00
Rob Kristoffersen
Here’s, here’s the, hint that I’ll give you look for the man with the healthy Van Dike. You will notice him.

01:11:18:02 – 01:11:20:23
Sean Jablonski
Okay.

01:11:20:25 – 01:11:21:28
Sean Jablonski
Nice.

01:11:22:00 – 01:11:43:04
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Well, at the very end of episode nine, in the TV show Doctor Hynek gives, he’s he’s given a head up by that mysterious fixer guy that something’s going to happen in Washington, DC. So he flies there just in time to see a show of lights over DC. Now, in the show, this happens in the middle of the day.

01:11:43:06 – 01:12:05:24
Dan LeFebvre
And then later, Defense Secretary Fairchild, he was the one who was, doing the chemical testing on the soldiers, that we saw in an earlier episode. He’s killed as his car burst into flame just before he’s about to reveal the truth to the world. And then meanwhile, we see that lights come back and the military scrambles some Sf90 force to respond.

01:12:05:26 – 01:12:31:22
Dan LeFebvre
They have trouble keeping up with the objects as they’re flying around Washington, DC. And at the very end of the episode, which is the end of the season, Doctor Hynek tells Captain Quinn that he’s come to the realization that the only way they’ll be able to find the truth is to keep the jobs that give them access to information in more cases, but to convince the government that they don’t believe because that’s clearly what the higher UPS wants.

01:12:31:22 – 01:12:50:27
Dan LeFebvre
They’re given this cover up. So we get the sense that Doctor Hynek is pretty much just going to play the game and keep trying to find the truth. So how well did the TV show explain the lights over Washington, DC and what happened to Doctor Hynek and Project Bluebook after this?

01:12:51:00 – 01:13:19:09
Rob Kristoffersen
So 1952 was a big year for UFO sightings in the United States. Three incidents covered in the first season of the show happened in 1952 the flatwoods monster case, the Florida Scoutmaster case, and the most significant of them, which was a pair of incidents that came to be known as the Washington merry go round, as, Edward Pelt would call it.

01:13:19:12 – 01:13:48:03
Rob Kristoffersen
In July of that year. And over the course of two weekends, objects were seen by numerous eyewitnesses over and kind of outside Washington, DC. The first major incident took place on July 21st, just outside the city. Pilots and radar personnel, reported objects nearby. A pilot by the name of Casey Spearman of Flight 807 described the object resembling a falling star without a tail on it.

01:13:48:05 – 01:14:13:26
Rob Kristoffersen
And then on the 28th, objects were sighted again over Washington, D.C. this time, the Air Force scrambled jets to chase them down, but the objects outmaneuvered them very easily, and Rupert was summoned at the time by president Harry Truman for an explanation, but hadn’t been able to conduct an investigation at that point, and he didn’t have answers for them.

01:14:13:26 – 01:14:42:19
Rob Kristoffersen
So, ultimately, they rushed to call a press conference and quickly quelled all the excitement. The government blamed it on, weather. Yep. That’s right. Weather. But it’s basically because of this incident that the Robertson panel, which I mentioned previously, led by the CIA, was convened and then ultimately decided that UFO reports had to be downplayed.

01:14:42:21 – 01:15:11:00
Rob Kristoffersen
Edward Bruce Pelt would leave a Project Blue Book by the end of 1953 because of it. And, he ended up retiring. He wrote the first, really landmark book about his time, on Project Sign and Project Blue Book. It was called The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects. He actually died very young, at the age of, I believe, 37 of a heart attack.

01:15:11:00 – 01:15:39:17
Rob Kristoffersen
So, yeah, it’s, I think they did a good job of playing up the hysteria aspect. That’s the government was generally operating under the nature of cover ups when it comes to this phenomenon. And when it comes to the UFO history, it’s this question of, you know, you’re tackling this question of whether they downplayed reports to keep the public calm or because the government was hiding something that they had.

01:15:39:19 – 01:16:01:08
Rob Kristoffersen
And it’s never really ever been cleared up. But I’ve always leaned towards the government was just trying to keep the public calm. I don’t think the government really has any, definitive information about this stuff, but you never know. It could be wrong. The government could come out and say, you know, we got aliens hanging out at area 51.

01:16:01:08 – 01:16:02:24
Rob Kristoffersen
I don’t know, you never know.

01:16:02:26 – 01:16:04:18
Sean Jablonski
You never know. Yeah. Yeah.

01:16:04:20 – 01:16:30:04
Dan LeFebvre
Well, in that episode, which is episode ten, when we see in the show his name is Secretary Fairchild, the defense secretary, when he dies of very suspicious circumstances. That led me to think that maybe there was it was based on somebody that might have died in similar circumstances that they showed that. So, so plainly, there was that based on something that actually happened.

01:16:30:07 – 01:16:59:00
Rob Kristoffersen
Secretary Fairchild is based on the first Secretary of Defense, James V Forrestal. Forrestal died in 1949, well before the Washington merry go round. But he died under very mysterious circumstances. He was receiving treatment at the Bethesda military Hospital in Maryland for a mental breakdown, and his body was found having fallen from a great height from his hospital room.

01:16:59:03 – 01:17:42:02
Rob Kristoffersen
It’s unclear if he committed suicide or if he was actually just thrown from the window, but his death has been lumped into, conspiracies involving a group that most likely didn’t investigate UFOs, but was an actual group within the government. And, they were called majestic 12. Most point to majestic 12 as a group that essentially were studying the effects of radiation after bomb tests, but many have lumped them into this government conspiracy where, they were essentially trying to keep, the proof of extraterrestrial life from the public.

01:17:42:02 – 01:17:56:12
Rob Kristoffersen
And many believe that Forrestal was killed, because he wanted to come forward until the public about, extraterrestrial life being real and having visited us. So.

01:17:56:14 – 01:17:58:03
Sean Jablonski
Kind of darker.

01:17:58:03 – 01:18:03:11
Rob Kristoffersen
A little darker in the, in the real sense of, what happened to Forrestal here?

01:18:03:13 – 01:18:24:12
Dan LeFebvre
Well, one thing that we didn’t get to cover that I just want to ask you about real quick, is a storyline that goes throughout the entire show, and that’s the character of Susie Miller. And, in the show, while Doctor Hynek is off on his investigations, it cuts back to home life with with Mimi, his wife, a lot.

01:18:24:15 – 01:18:44:25
Dan LeFebvre
And we get this sense that the character of Susie is a Russian spy of some sort. We hear some, her speaking in Russian over the radio to someone with her quote unquote husband, which we know is not really her husband. We get the feeling that it’s not really her husband, but that’s what she introduces him as.

01:18:44:28 – 01:18:59:16
Dan LeFebvre
And we get the overall idea that they’re probably Russian spies trying to infiltrate Project Blue Book through Doctor Heinrich’s wife. Was there any truth to that side of the whole show?

01:18:59:19 – 01:19:39:14
Rob Kristoffersen
Not really. There was no real, indications that the Russians were trying to infiltrate Project Blue Book. But interestingly enough, Andy Jacobson, who wrote a book about area 51, has this theory that the Roswell crash was a Russian craft designed to basically cause mass hysteria. And what she points to is that, her source claims that, Joseph Stalin really got a kick out of, the Orson Welles War of the worlds broadcast.

01:19:39:14 – 01:20:14:16
Rob Kristoffersen
And so he, he has said, her theory is that he essentially wanted to cause mass hysteria in that kind of way. Of course it didn’t pan out that way. Roswell was the case that was shuttered for over 30 years. So before anybody really started to know, that anything had crashed in Roswell, New Mexico. So, yeah, not not really there there was no real, attempt by the Russians to infiltrate this program.

01:20:14:19 – 01:20:18:18
Dan LeFebvre
Interesting. I never heard that, that possible theory about Stalin there.

01:20:18:20 – 01:20:20:00
Rob Kristoffersen
It’s a wild one, man. It’s a.

01:20:20:00 – 01:20:21:26
Sean Jablonski
Wild one.

01:20:21:28 – 01:20:32:14
Dan LeFebvre
Nice. Well, is there anything from the show that, as you were watching this, first season that you just wish that they had put in their.

01:20:32:16 – 01:20:37:06
Rob Kristoffersen
Listen, Hynek needs a van. Dike. Somebody get a van dike on Aidan Gillen.

01:20:37:06 – 01:20:38:04
Dan LeFebvre
We need it. There you go.

01:20:38:08 – 01:20:41:13
Sean Jablonski
Okay. Awesome.

01:20:41:15 – 01:20:57:03
Dan LeFebvre
Well, thank you so much for coming on to chat about Project Bluebook. I know we didn’t cover season two that much on this episode as we’re recording this, the season is still ongoing, but you’ll have to come back on once that season is over and chat about whatever the events are that we see there.

01:20:57:05 – 01:21:00:00
Rob Kristoffersen
Oh, absolutely man, I’d love to.

01:21:00:02 – 01:21:20:11
Dan LeFebvre
In the meantime, if you’re listening to this, Rob has an awesome podcast that covers a lot of UFO related events in history. Go open up the app that you’re listening to this on and subscribe to Rob’s podcast called Our Strange Skies. Can you give us a little bit of an overview of your podcast and some of the great stories that you cover over there?

01:21:20:13 – 01:21:41:18
Rob Kristoffersen
Sure. So, for a long time I had the impetus to cover, singular UFO stories, and I had seen that nobody really did it. And a lot of podcasters just kept coming to me for, like, content. They just were like, hey, what’s a good UFO case to cover? And I’m like, I’d usually give them something, but I’m like, why don’t I just make a.

01:21:41:18 – 01:21:42:16
Sean Jablonski
Podcast of my own?

01:21:42:16 – 01:22:18:09
Rob Kristoffersen
So I, I created the Strange Skies podcast and we’ve been through a couple of transformations, but right now what we do is, we devote singular episodes or if, some require multi-part episodes to, UFO stories throughout history, from the United States, we’ve covered stories from Brazil and, a few other places, but, we just covered the Betty and Barney Hill incident, the Leilani Suborn incident, which is, another famous, New Mexico UFO sighting.

01:22:18:11 – 01:22:38:19
Rob Kristoffersen
We covered the first abduction case, which was occurred in 1957, in Brazil. And, there’s a lot of great episodes over there. So, yeah, if you want to know more about UFOs, come on over to the, our Strange Skies podcast. We got plenty for you.

01:22:38:21 – 01:22:42:00
Dan LeFebvre
Awesome. And you started a new show recently, too, right?

01:22:42:02 – 01:23:11:02
Rob Kristoffersen
Yes. It’s called the Coda, a music podcast. And every other week I’m joined by my buddy Brian Hastie of the Double Density podcast, and we discuss music news. And, we generally have a main feature or main topic where we discuss something from music. We’ve talked about our favorite opening tracks to an album. We’ve talked about our best albums of 2019, and we recently had a couple of guests on to talk about, a new album that they dropped.

01:23:11:02 – 01:23:17:11
Rob Kristoffersen
So, if you’re interested in music, talk, check out the The Coda, a music podcast.

01:23:17:13 – 01:23:19:22
Dan LeFebvre
Awesome. Thanks again so much for your time, Rob.

01:23:19:24 – 01:23:29:20
Rob Kristoffersen
Well, thank you.

01:23:29:22 – 01:23:47:06
Dan LeFebvre
We have a lot more to go. But I do want to point out that even though Rob was talking about his podcast are Strange Guys that’s not actively in production. Remember that chat with Rob was in 2020? You might still be able to find it online now if you want to go through the archives. If it is available, I’ll be sure to add a link to it in the show notes so you can check there.

01:23:47:08 – 01:24:13:20
Dan LeFebvre
Before we move on to season two of Project Blue Book, let’s find out the answer to our Two Truths and a lie game for season one. And as a quick refresher, here are the two truths and one lie again. Number one, Project Blue Book was the first time the government investigated UFOs. Number two, former Nazi Verner von Braun teamed up with Walt Disney to promote the U.S. space program after World War two.

01:24:13:23 – 01:24:26:23
Dan LeFebvre
Number three, the term Foo Fighters was used by World War II two pilots who saw unexplained phenomena. Did you figure out which one is a lie? I’ve got the answer in the envelope, so let’s open that up.

01:24:26:25 – 01:24:52:24
Dan LeFebvre
And the lie is number one. While Project Blue Book is typically the most popular investigation, the US government had into UFOs, as we learned from Robert, was actually a follow up to Project Sign and Project Grudge. So even though there were a lot of the same people involved in these different government projects, Project Blue Book was not the first time the US government investigated UFOs or what people these days called UAP.

01:24:52:29 – 01:25:21:25
Dan LeFebvre
Unidentified aerial phenomena instead of unidentified flying objects. Okay, now let’s set up another game of Tetris in line for season two of Project Blue Book. Are you ready? Okay, here they are. Number one. In the 1950s, the U.S government illegally experimented with LSD on unwitting U.S. citizens. Number two, the phrase little green men comes from a close encounter in Kentucky.

01:25:21:27 – 01:25:48:02
Dan LeFebvre
Number three, Project Blue Book was commissioned by JFK. All right, I’ll be back after the season two discussion with Rob to see if you got it right. And now here is the remastered version of my 2020 chat with Rob Kristofferson about season two of Project Blue Book.

01:25:48:04 – 01:26:17:15
Dan LeFebvre
All right, well, then, let’s dive into the second season and the first episode of the second season. We’re introduced to the Roswell incident. If there’s one name that just about everyone knows it’s connected to UFOs, it’s Roswell. But that doesn’t mean everyone knows the details of what happened there. According to the show on July 5th, 1947, there was a major storm around Roswell, New Mexico, and then the next morning, a rancher by the name of Mike Connors found a field covered in strange metal.

01:26:17:18 – 01:26:44:19
Dan LeFebvre
By the end of the day, his neighbors were collecting pieces of the debris, and he wasn’t really convinced that it was manmade. So he contacted authorities. They swooped in, but someone leak the story out, it hit the wire. And then it started to run worldwide. Newspapers in Europe even ran with this story. The show doesn’t really say how the authorities shut the story down, but it does say that once Harding got involved two days later, Connors bought himself a brand new car and the town stopped talking.

01:26:44:23 – 01:27:08:11
Dan LeFebvre
So I’m going to assume that they were paid off. The wreckage was flown to Texas, where Harding held a press conference explaining the saucer was nothing more than a weather balloon. Now, I know we could have an entire episode, entire podcast just dedicated to the Roswell incident, but in a nutshell, how? What did the show do depicting the events of the Roswell incident?

01:27:08:13 – 01:27:37:14
Rob Kristoffersen
Well, with this particular episode, the bare bones are there. You know, some details have been changed, but, the storm in question, that starts the episode occurred on the night of July 2nd, 1947. And the man in question, they call him Mike Connors in the show. Well, his real name was Mac Brazel. And on that night, Brazel claimed to hear a strange sound that didn’t quite sound like, thunder and lightning.

01:27:37:14 – 01:27:59:13
Rob Kristoffersen
So, he was the foreman of a sheep ranch owned by a man named JB foster. And the next morning, when he woke up to get started, he discovered a debris field outside. It was about, three quarters of a mile long by about, I think, like 20ft wide or so. So this was a really remote area.

01:27:59:13 – 01:28:20:11
Rob Kristoffersen
The closest town to the Foster Ranch is, a town called Corona, which is about 30 miles away. But, he showed the debris to his closest neighbors, which were Floyd, and were at a proctor who owned the ranch themselves. And, they tried to cut it, and they tried to burn it, but they were not successful in doing so.

01:28:20:13 – 01:28:55:09
Rob Kristoffersen
So, the doctors urged Mac Brazel to report the debris to the authorities. And Brazel ultimately did four days later. It’s not exactly clear why he waited as long as he did. It could have been a combination of the July 4th holiday and the hesitation on Brazil’s part to do anything with it. But, on Monday, July 7th, he brought the debris to the Chaves County Sheriff Department, who in turn notified the Roswell Army Airfield, which is, known today as the Walker Air Force Base.

01:28:55:12 – 01:29:18:10
Rob Kristoffersen
The base dispatch two officers, Major Jesse Marcel Senior and Captain Sheridan Cavett, to actually retrieve the material. They Brazel escorted them to the ranch, and, they actually ended up spending the night there before they headed back into town. They gathered up as much as they could, and they also tried to cut it. They tried to burn it.

01:29:18:12 – 01:29:49:09
Rob Kristoffersen
They also tried to hit it with a sledge hammer, and they found that they couldn’t make a dent with it. So it wasn’t until long after they brought it back that the military swarmed the place. And before Jesse Marcel junior there. Jesse Marcel senior. Sorry, actually brought it. To the, airfield. He brought it home. Where, his son, Jesse Marcel Jr and a few of his other family members claimed to have actually seen the wreckage.

01:29:49:12 – 01:30:18:00
Rob Kristoffersen
Some of them, some of the pieces, Jesse Marcel Jr claimed had, these, like, weird hieroglyphic writings on them that were in, like, this purple kind of script. But he said that it was more closely resembling metal. It’s kind of one of those things that gets debated a lot. But, the, military just swarmed the place and, they actually sent out a lot of this wreckage.

01:30:18:00 – 01:30:44:05
Rob Kristoffersen
It was ultimately going to be flown to, Wright Field, which, later became, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, which is where Project Blue Book was, stationed out of. But, in the meantime, while they were collecting all this stuff, the military decided to send out a press release. And, and the man that made that decision, was a man named Colonel William Blanchard.

01:30:44:07 – 01:31:07:22
Rob Kristoffersen
And he informed the base’s information officer, Lieutenant Walter Hot, to, send a press release into town. And like, he, hot physically brought these press releases to, like, the Roswell Daily Record and a few other places in town, which, seemed kind of odd for the times, considering that they could just send it, you know, via wire.

01:31:07:24 – 01:31:35:04
Rob Kristoffersen
But that’s, like one of the weird parts about this case, one of the tiny, weird things, but, they you that, ends up making the paper, the date, like, later that day saying, you know, Roswell Army Airfield recovers flying saucer. So, yeah, while this was all happening, Major Jesse Marcel, junior, he made a stop at Carswell Field in Denton, Texas.

01:31:35:04 – 01:32:04:20
Rob Kristoffersen
As he was accompanying this wreckage to right field and a gentleman by the name of, Roger Ramey, who was general. He, had Jesse Marcel senior pose with pictures of what, they were claiming was a down weather balloon. And ultimately, the next day, they would, retract their initial headline saying that they recovered a flying saucer and saying, no, it was all just a weather balloon.

01:32:04:23 – 01:32:27:13
Rob Kristoffersen
Now, Jesse Marcel Senior attested to the to the effect that it wasn’t the same stuff. He was saying that, they kind of made up this, mock weather balloon, had them pose with it, but it was not the actual wreckage that made its way to right field. And he went to his grave saying the same thing.

01:32:27:13 – 01:33:15:16
Rob Kristoffersen
Same with, Jesse Marcel senior. What’s interesting about this case is after it was retracted in 47 people, in the UFO community, by and large, forgot about this case for about 30 years. Wasn’t until 1978, when, independent researcher named Stanton Friedman was actually told, while he was conducting an in radio interview that he should talk to Jesse Marcel senior and from there, Roswell has become this big household name when it comes to UFOs and, you know, not trusting the government because the government has changed their mind as to what was recovered on multiple occasions.

01:33:15:16 – 01:33:19:14
Rob Kristoffersen
And, yeah, it’s just this big cultural touchstone now.

01:33:19:16 – 01:33:37:04
Dan LeFebvre
Wow, wow. So the I mean, I’ve seen the, the picture of him kind of, I’m assuming Marcel at on the front page of the paper he’s got holding something in his hand that would then be what they kind of staged as the weather balloon, not the necessarily the material that was actually recovered.

01:33:37:06 – 01:34:04:23
Rob Kristoffersen
Right? Yeah. That’s, that’s what Jesse Marcel both Jesse Marcel claimed is that it was not the same stuff. It was, swapped out. You know, they were trying to keep this thing, you know, on the down low, covered up. And that’s really why Roswell is as big a thing as it is. Because given that the, Air Force has changed their mind as to what it was on multiple occasions, now, nobody really trusts their explanation.

01:34:04:23 – 01:34:39:28
Rob Kristoffersen
So you have a ton of explanations out there. Now, there’s, a book called, area 51. It was written by a woman named Andy Jacobson. And she proposed at one point through one of her sources that what the Roswell wreckage was was a Russian craft that, had been sent over into American territory to cause hysteria because apparently Joseph Stalin was a big fan of, George Orwell’s or, sorry, not George Orwell.

01:34:40:00 – 01:34:40:29
Dan LeFebvre
Orson Welles, the,

01:34:41:03 – 01:35:01:09
Rob Kristoffersen
Orson Welles, for the War of the worlds broadcasts. Apparently, he was a huge fan, according to her source, and that this was a mock thing, dreamed up by the Russian government. That’s probably like the low end of believability on this. But, there are a lot of interesting theories when it comes to Roswell, I think.

01:35:01:09 – 01:35:23:21
Dan LeFebvre
I don’t remember if it was in episode one, but I do remember the the show actually mentioning that very, very briefly. I think that the two generals are talking to each other, and one of them talks about how, the things that Doctor Mengele did to those children and, you know, and the saucer was Soviet propaganda or whatever.

01:35:23:21 – 01:35:46:18
Dan LeFebvre
Like they just kind of imply that that’s what it was was it was Soviet. And then, of course, Doctor Mengele, the, the Nazi, doctor doing something to the bodies to kind of make them look like aliens or whatever it was. I just remember that very, very briefly in, in the TV show. So it sounds like maybe that that’s where that comes from.

01:35:46:20 – 01:35:59:18
Rob Kristoffersen
There are, you know, other theories like that out there. There’s, there’s some that get really, really dark, but, yeah, yeah, it seems like everybody has a theory on Roswell these days.

01:35:59:21 – 01:36:38:14
Dan LeFebvre
Well, heading back to the show in episode number two, it’s the part two of the Roswell incident. And during this episode, we find out about a resident in town named Duncan Booker. And he crashes a massive UFO into the center of town to try to draw attention to what he says is the real story. General Harding agrees to go on TV with Booker to tell the world that this was nothing more than a hoax, but once they go live, Booker’s friend at the TV station starts playing footage of an alien autopsy, and then Doctor Hynek comes to the rescue and he realizes that, oh, you look the studio lighting in the footage is the

01:36:38:14 – 01:36:59:15
Dan LeFebvre
same. This is this footage is a hoax. But then Booker insists that, yeah, they recreated the footage, but it was actually from something that they actually saw. And I thought I remembered something about some alien autopsy footage that showed up quite some time ago, but I don’t remember if it was supposed to be from Roswell or related to that or not.

01:36:59:18 – 01:37:04:23
Dan LeFebvre
Is that real footage, and was it tied to the Roswell incident like the show implies?

01:37:04:25 – 01:37:45:28
Rob Kristoffersen
So the, alien autopsy video was huge. It was a real video that, came out in the, mid 90s. During that time, that’s where UFOs were kind of hitting their cultural balloon. This was when Roswell had really blown up in popular culture, and it was actually all thanks to Unsolved Mysteries. Unsolved mysteries was the first show to really give that case its do so by by this time, aliens and and UFOs are big and they’re appearing on a lot more television shows.

01:37:45:28 – 01:38:20:23
Rob Kristoffersen
And, one of the networks that really ran with it was Fox in the, in the 90s. And, they ran a program in 1995 called Alien Autopsy Fact or Fiction, and it was hosted by, Jonathan Frakes of Star Trek The Next Generation fame. And, a man by the name of race until he came forward saying that he found footage of an alien autopsy and he had at the time been looking through a retired military cameraman’s footage searching for, actually, footage of Elvis for, like, some documentary.

01:38:20:23 – 01:38:57:23
Rob Kristoffersen
And, he claims that he stumbled upon this autopsy of an alien being that he says was one of the bodies at Roswell. So the Fox airs this special, and it is huge. So much so that they re-air it a couple months later and, it kind of just dies down for about a decade. When in 2006 recently claimed that the footage was a recreation of footage that he had seen in 1992, it a degraded so bad that he couldn’t actually save it.

01:38:57:23 – 01:39:35:03
Rob Kristoffersen
So instead he he has this convoluted explanation that, in fact, he actually reshot the footage, recreated everything, in order to like, you know, bolster his claims. But, you know, it’s it definitely didn’t help his case. But, in 2018, a filmmaker named, Spiro Smulders revealed that he was actually the creator of the film, and he claimed that he created the alien sculpture using foam and stuffing the insides with, basically animal parts.

01:39:35:03 – 01:40:02:00
Rob Kristoffersen
So, this video footage kind of keeps, like, reappearing every now and then. There was a, leaked government document, about, I want to say maybe, late last year in which two guys, one of them was a, a high ranking military member. The other had been a consultant with the government saying that this footage was real.

01:40:02:00 – 01:40:06:09
Rob Kristoffersen
But, nobody at this point buys that. It’s actually really.

01:40:06:11 – 01:40:23:03
Dan LeFebvre
Well, it sounds like the show is is taking that concept, but there I mean, this is happening in the. Well, I remember Roswell being in 47, but then, you know, this happening after the fact in the 50s and stuff like that. With the as far as the TV show timeline, it kind of bounces back and forth. But none of that.

01:40:23:03 – 01:40:33:13
Dan LeFebvre
It sounds like if it surfaced in the 90s, it sounds like they’re taking something from decades later and kind of throwing that in there just to add to the narrative.

01:40:33:16 – 01:41:02:13
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah, pretty much, you know, there’s always been like UFO hoaxes. They’ve always been prevalent. The first UFO hoax goes back to 1947, in these kids, and I forget exactly what town they lived in. I think it was called Woodworth, and they ended up at, this is when, Kenneth Arnold had his famous sighting. It was shortly after that, and sometime in July.

01:41:02:15 – 01:41:21:19
Rob Kristoffersen
And these kids mocked up this UFO, and they put it on this one lady’s lawn. And the reason that they put it on that one lady’s lawn is because she was known as the town gossip. And she knew and they knew that, word would get around really quickly. And to the point where the, National Guard actually ended up coming to town and these kids got in trouble.

01:41:21:19 – 01:41:30:10
Rob Kristoffersen
So, I mean, there’s always been hoaxers and there’s always been people trying to make a buck. And, I mean, recently probably made a killing selling video tapes.

01:41:30:14 – 01:41:50:13
Dan LeFebvre
So I wanted to ask you about something that the show has. And when they’re investigating on the show, Hynek and Quinn, they come across a soldier who was at Roswell, and soldiers name is Stuart Terry. He tells them that there wasn’t just one crash site, but there was a second one. And at that second site, Terry talks about how he shot something.

01:41:50:15 – 01:42:08:02
Dan LeFebvre
Later, he recovered the remains buried in his land. And then Hynek and Quinn go to where it was buried, and they find some skeletal remains. But then I think there was a mention as well, where someone mentions how the authorities asked for five child sized coffins. So maybe there was more than just the one being that we see, shown on the actual TV show.

01:42:08:02 – 01:42:16:29
Dan LeFebvre
But what about this concept of two crash sites at Roswell where there were there actually two crash sites with multiple being supposedly found?

01:42:17:02 – 01:42:46:16
Rob Kristoffersen
There have been a few different narratives concerning, you know, the crash saucers at Roswell, one being that the craft in question was hit by lightning over the Foster Ranch, and it created this debris field, and that the actual saucer crashed 150 miles away in a place called the Plains of Saint Augustine in the late 70s, early 80s. As Stanton Friedman was researching this case, he learned of a story through a second hand and third hand sources.

01:42:46:16 – 01:43:18:27
Rob Kristoffersen
A lot of people came forward saying that this guy named Barney Barnett discovered the crash saucer and alien bodies at this place called the Planes of Saint Augustine. And Friedman was never actually able to talk to him directly. He had died, about a decade before he started researching it. But a lot of people came forward, I want to say like maybe 5 or 6 people came forward and said, oh, yeah, Barney Barnett, he told me the story about how he saw these, alien beings in this crash saucer all the way in this at the site.

01:43:18:27 – 01:43:42:27
Rob Kristoffersen
And there was also, allegedly an archeology class that had walked up upon it at the same time that he did. Now, there’s also speculation that what had happened was that there were two saucers that crashed, and one ended up at the planes of Saint Augustine, and the other allegedly crashed 2 to 3 miles away from the Foster Ranch.

01:43:42:27 – 01:44:18:18
Rob Kristoffersen
But nobody’s ever really been able to like and, you know, pin it down to one. And again, that’s what makes Roswell this like narrative that has been built on, over and over again upon time. The child sized coffin portion of this comes from a man named Glenn Dennis. He was a part time assistant at the local funeral home, the Ballard Funeral Home, and he claims to have received a call from the Army Air Force, inquiring about the availability of child sized coffins.

01:44:18:18 – 01:44:42:23
Rob Kristoffersen
He claims to have delivered 3 or 4 of them to the base, and, he also claimed to have ran into a nurse on the base who had witnessed the alien bodies, and even drew a sketch of them on a napkin, of which, Dennis actually recreated. I don’t think like there are photos if you Google Glenn Dennis, you know, alien sketch, you’ll see.

01:44:42:23 – 01:45:03:08
Rob Kristoffersen
You’ll come upon like this. There’s like, four small images on what looks like, you know, a piece of, like, white stationery. I think he ended up recreating it, but his testimony has been called into question, simply by the fact that they’ve never been able to confirm who this nurse was. At the Roswell Army airfield.

01:45:03:08 – 01:45:17:14
Rob Kristoffersen
So, Yeah, these, these are, this just attests to the reason why, Roswell is this, like, ambiguous mound of, testimony at this point, while.

01:45:17:14 – 01:45:38:17
Dan LeFebvre
Moving right along. We’re in episode number three now, and Project Blue Book has a case at area 51. It involves two soldiers, Willingham and Miller. And they were doing a routine patrol when Miller was abducted by a UFO. When Hynek and Quinn get to the site of where it happened, you can see the sand there was turned to glass.

01:45:38:20 – 01:45:52:24
Dan LeFebvre
Other than Roswell, of course, everyone knows about area 51 and how it relates to UFOs and top secret cover ups and things like that. But was Doctor Hynek ever there to investigate an abduction like we see in the show?

01:45:52:26 – 01:46:19:00
Rob Kristoffersen
Abductions were something that Project Blue Book tried to distance themselves from. And we really didn’t get, our first abduction account until 1961, when Betty and Barney Hill had their experience, you know, which we briefly talked about in episode 153. It was the inspiration for one of those episodes, and they tried to, explain away certain portions of their sighting.

01:46:19:02 – 01:46:42:19
Rob Kristoffersen
So, for instance, the only parts that they investigated were the sighting and the actual craft in the sky, which they claimed was, I believe, like an advertising search later, an advertising like plane or something like that flying at like midnight or whatever, which was a really ridiculous explanation. It’s a great time to realize.

01:46:42:22 – 01:46:45:03
Sean Jablonski
Yeah.

01:46:45:06 – 01:46:52:06
Rob Kristoffersen
It’s a great, great time. Let’s advertise to that. That single folk, you know, the single couple that are just driving on the highway, they.

01:46:52:06 – 01:46:54:01
Dan LeFebvre
Call that targeted advertising. That’s that.

01:46:54:01 – 01:46:57:03
Sean Jablonski
One. Yeah.

01:46:57:06 – 01:47:51:14
Rob Kristoffersen
Absolutely, absolutely. But, the only abduction investigated through, like, the guise of Project Bluebook was the abduction of a police officer named Herbert Schirmer in 1967. And it wasn’t exactly investigated by Project Blue Book, personnel, but by an independent body that had been brought in to study the phenomenon called the Condon Committee. And, this arose this committee arose in 1966 after a series of sightings in Michigan to which, Doctor Hynek, probably made the biggest, what many would consider career suicide at that point by, labeling a UFO sighting as the, product of swamp gas, which is where that that term came from.

01:47:51:17 – 01:48:03:05
Rob Kristoffersen
These, sightings occurred in, Dexter Hillsdale in the Dexter Hillsdale region of, Michigan. But this,

01:48:03:08 – 01:48:33:19
Rob Kristoffersen
Shurmur’s case is, is kind of fascinating because he’s a, he’s a police officer with the a, Ashland, Nebraska police Department. He was fluent in multiple language. He was a very intelligent man. And, in this on December 3rd, 1967, he was on a routine patrol. He was, on a rural road when he saw a light, which he assumed to be, a vehicle having trouble.

01:48:33:21 – 01:49:04:06
Rob Kristoffersen
And when he drove up on it, it was a UFO. And he stopped his car. And in the next moment, he appeared to be missing time. But, through the Condon Committee, he was subjected to hypnosis. It was later revealed that he had, been taken on board this UFO been shown around by some really interesting looking aliens, and he was ultimately returned.

01:49:04:06 – 01:49:31:09
Rob Kristoffersen
But, this case, like, caused such an uproar to the point where, Sherman was driving to Colorado, the University of Colorado, where this project was being handled. And during one trip, a group of people actually ended up destroying his car for, no real reason. I still don’t understand it. To this day. It was, it caused it seemed to cause some kind of uproar.

01:49:31:09 – 01:50:03:16
Rob Kristoffersen
But, Shermer ended up serving for a little while longer in Ashland, Nebraska. And then he ultimately moved to the Pacific Northwest, where he, died in 2017. But, there’s actually a really cool graphic novel created about his sighting. It’s called December 3rd, 1967, an alien counter by a guy named Mike. Jessica, and Shermer claimed that, yeah, he he eventually read it before he died.

01:50:03:16 – 01:50:32:13
Rob Kristoffersen
And he claimed that, he had come to see his see his sighting in kind of a religious sense. So, that’s really the only abduction case that Project Blue Book ever gave the light of day. Most of them really went unreported, until the 80s, when, you know, more and more people started to come forward. Before then, you had scattered incidents.

01:50:32:13 – 01:51:02:19
Rob Kristoffersen
Most of them would be, you know, relegated to the, UFO journals and such. But, abductions just weren’t something that Project Blue Book wanted to handle. And really, any incidents involving sightings of alien beings, they would downplay, they would, only investigate certain portions of it, especially when it came to like the UFO sightings itself.

01:51:02:19 – 01:51:09:28
Rob Kristoffersen
But when it comes to animate beings, Project Blue Book said, no, we’re out. We’re done with this.

01:51:10:00 – 01:51:31:24
Dan LeFebvre
Well, it sounds like they’re almost the TV show is almost doing something similar to what they did with the autopsy footage, where they’re finding an excuse to, in this case, bring in area 51, because everybody knows what area 51 is. So we need to have a reason for Doctor Hynek and Captain Quinn to to be there to basically have area 51 on the show because it’s a show about UFOs.

01:51:31:24 – 01:51:33:24
Dan LeFebvre
And so you have to have area 51, right?

01:51:33:27 – 01:52:00:22
Rob Kristoffersen
Area 51 is just kind of the hot gossip around town. And it wasn’t until a, journalist named George Knapp, he started talking to a guy named Bob Lazar and Bob Lazar. He his credentials have never fully been proven, but that has not stopped him from speaking on the record many times, saying that, he had, worked briefly for the government.

01:52:00:28 – 01:52:15:18
Rob Kristoffersen
He had worked like, maybe less than two months, 2 to 3 weeks or so. Reverse engineering. This, UFO, which he, affectionately called the sport model, which, it’s always been kind of funny.

01:52:15:18 – 01:52:19:24
Dan LeFebvre
Oh, cool. They have, like, SUVs and the sport coupe versions and.

01:52:19:24 – 01:52:20:23
Sean Jablonski
Yeah.

01:52:20:25 – 01:52:27:23
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah, I would assume so. You know, like, there’s got to be a caravan somewhere in there. And area 51, I was. Yes.

01:52:27:25 – 01:52:51:01
Dan LeFebvre
Of course you travel in style. I wanted to ask you about something with area 51, because the show kind of gives the indication that, there’s more than just the base there. I think there’s, there’s a scene where we see Doctor Hynek and Captain Quinn. There’s like this massive, complex, massive doors opening in the side of a mountain.

01:52:51:01 – 01:53:06:01
Dan LeFebvre
And Quinn says something to the effect of what we saw back there at the base with just the cover. This is the real area 51. Is there any evidence to suggest that the base that everyone knows is at Cream Lake is just a cover for some sort of massive hidden base nearby?

01:53:06:03 – 01:53:45:15
Rob Kristoffersen
Bob Lazar claimed that he didn’t exactly work at area 51. He worked at a portion of Groom Lake nearby that they called S-4, and S-4 was supposedly this huge underground complex went down for miles, and that’s where they were storing all of these, UFOs that had crashed and that the government was trying to reverse engineer. And they also housed apparently aliens that worked with the US government in the evening, like there are many places, many bases that, people claim aliens work with the government on technology and stuff like that.

01:53:45:22 – 01:54:15:06
Rob Kristoffersen
So, really that extends from Bob Lazar and his claim to work at, S-4. And the interesting thing is, is that George Knapp, in the introduction to, Bob Lazar’s autobiography, which came out late last year, he claims that he called up Nellis Air Force Base and said, is there a nest for, anywhere out there? And the guy’s like, yeah, there is.

01:54:15:06 – 01:54:21:17
Rob Kristoffersen
So it’s like, well, if if George Knapp can call up and ask if there’s an S-4 out there, why can’t anybody do it?

01:54:21:18 – 01:54:23:24
Sean Jablonski
Like, come on.

01:54:23:26 – 01:54:27:02
Dan LeFebvre
I was going to say, is that all it took somebody just picking up the phone and making a.

01:54:27:02 – 01:54:29:19
Sean Jablonski
Call. So it just.

01:54:29:19 – 01:54:41:10
Rob Kristoffersen
Seems to be. That seems to be it like, all you need is a phone and, you know, some in some, you know, liquid courage. And they’ll tell you that S-4 does.

01:54:41:10 – 01:54:43:02
Sean Jablonski
Exist.

01:54:43:05 – 01:55:08:03
Dan LeFebvre
If we head back into the TV show. Episode number four covers an event in Hopkinsville, Kentucky. According to the show, Jimmy J. Shoemaker is in the woods near his house when he sees a UFO fly over and at the house, his entire family sees creatures in the woods. We can see a shot where, his family’s all lined up with rifles, and they’re shooting through through the walls of the house at the creatures outside.

01:55:08:05 – 01:55:30:18
Dan LeFebvre
Shoemaker tells Hynek and Quinn when they get there, that aliens landed there and tried to kill them all. And then later, we find that Shoemaker happens to run a circus. He has monkeys, he has costumes for them, and a green glaze to make it look like alien handprints on the trees we saw. So Project Bluebook determined that this was all a hoax, even though again, we have the same sort of theme.

01:55:30:18 – 01:55:44:06
Dan LeFebvre
Shoemaker is claiming that he was just recreating the things that actually happened. It’s similar to what we saw with Duncan Booker in the Alien Autopsy a couple episodes earlier. So how well did the show do depicting this event in Hopkinsville?

01:55:44:08 – 01:56:10:03
Rob Kristoffersen
The Kelly Hopkinsville incident is one of the most fascinating UFO related incidents. Since the 50s. It’s, kind of one of those cultural touchstones to the point where it inspired a, a character, a Pokemon. So I mean, it’s, it’s one of those cases that, you know, it perks up a lot of people’s ears.

01:56:10:03 – 01:56:36:01
Rob Kristoffersen
So, you know, they got, there’s there’s the bare bones there. It occurred in the hamlet of Kelly in Kentucky on August 21st, 1955, and it occurred on the farmstead of the Sutton family at 7 p.m. that evening. A friend of the family, the the guy’s real name was Billy Ray Taylor, claimed to see a UFO with this colorful exhaust.

01:56:36:03 – 01:57:01:11
Rob Kristoffersen
It passed over him. It hovered near some trees nearby and it came down. And this was as he was going outside to collect some water. Now, these folks, they did not have electricity. They didn’t have running water. They had an outhouse. You know, this is rural life to the fullest. So Billy Ray, he comes inside and he tells everybody, oh, I saw this UFO.

01:57:01:14 – 01:57:27:21
Rob Kristoffersen
You know, it came down, it’s out back. And, nobody believed him. But an hour later, he and, his friend, the one lady was there to visit Lucky Sutton. He lived in the house. They went outside when, their dogs just started to bark uncontrollably. And at first they saw what they believed to be a strange glow coming from behind their property.

01:57:27:24 – 01:57:53:22
Rob Kristoffersen
And as it moved closer, they were able to make out small humanoid creatures about 3.5ft tall. They claimed that its head was, it was oversize, it was round in it, and it had really large ears, which was one of the more curious features of this creature, because you don’t often see ears reported on aliens. But, in this case, we do.

01:57:53:24 – 01:58:21:09
Rob Kristoffersen
And their arms were almost as long as its entire body. They they hung really low and, its hands had talons on them, of all things. So this thing is scary as hell. They had eyes that glowed, pale yellow color. And the, the two men immediately went inside, grabbed firearms, and pointed it toward the this creature that was coming toward them.

01:58:21:11 – 01:58:53:08
Rob Kristoffersen
And this creature had its hands raised as if it’s saying, don’t shoot at me. But they fired anyway. This creature did a flip. It fled under the cover of darkness and disappeared. Now, mind you, there are 11 people living on this farmstead at this time, and it’s really in a small three room shack. So you have eight adults and three children, and many of them saw creatures appearing at the window after this.

01:58:53:08 – 01:59:18:03
Rob Kristoffersen
So it was about maybe a half hour to 45 minutes later that one of these creatures appeared at the window. They fired again and again. This creature just flipped and fled into the trees. So it fully escalated. After Billy Ray Taylor stepped out the front door and had his hair pulled by one of the creatures who had climbed up on top of the roof.

01:59:18:05 – 01:59:43:22
Rob Kristoffersen
So the family, they all packed inside their house. They holed up for a few hours, listening to the footsteps on the roof, until they eventually fled to their cars and drove to the police station. Now, the officer that accompanied them back, he claimed that these are not the kind of people that would go to the police to solve their problems.

01:59:43:24 – 02:00:14:10
Rob Kristoffersen
So they were really, scared. They were shook up, and they accompanied them back to their house, but all they found were some spent shell casings. There were holes in the, screen windows. But after the police left, the creatures actually came back, and it was so dead. Approximately 2:30 a.m., the matriarch of the household, miss, Glennie Lankford, saw one of the creatures near her bedside window, and it put a hand on the window screen.

02:00:14:10 – 02:00:18:05
Rob Kristoffersen
And I would be scarred for life if I saw it.

02:00:18:08 – 02:00:20:12
Dan LeFebvre
I mean, I’ve seen horror movies that start this way.

02:00:20:12 – 02:00:22:10
Sean Jablonski
This is.

02:00:22:13 – 02:00:46:08
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah, exactly. This. This is a horror movie movie in the making. It’s happening in real time. So it was about 530 when these creatures backed off and they were never seen again. And, the family’s ordeal made national news headlines. And because of the way this case was portrayed in the news, there were a lot of details that were blown out of proportion.

02:00:46:08 – 02:01:14:04
Rob Kristoffersen
Like they, a lot of papers said that there were like, up to 11 of these aliens when, the family claimed that they only saw three of them. But, it’s from this case that, the term little green men is something that, entered the vernacular. And it’s something that kind of exists still today because, if you look at many of the popular images of, alien heads, they’re usually green.

02:01:14:04 – 02:01:39:27
Rob Kristoffersen
And it’s, because of this case, according to documents, Project Blue Book never took an official interest in this case, though Hynek did later write about it in one of his books. But, this, this is definitely, I would say the, the real true to life case is a little more interesting than the way it, was displayed in Project Blue Book.

02:01:39:27 – 02:02:00:00
Rob Kristoffersen
I think the the problem that, they have with Project Blue Book is, there really isn’t a lot of mystery left over when you start to explain everything away. And, you know, I think that’s, one of the fatal missteps of the second season is they just start to explain things more and more.

02:02:00:02 – 02:02:13:18
Dan LeFebvre
One thing they did mention in this episode was, program in the CIA called MK ultra, and they’re supposedly doing some work with precognition. Is there anything about MKUltra, like, was that an actual program?

02:02:13:20 – 02:02:51:28
Rob Kristoffersen
Oh, yeah. Project MKUltra was a real project. It was a CIA funded study pertaining to mind control through the use of LSD and other psychological measures. MKUltra is a whole other can of worms, and like, you could probably do, I could go on for ever talking about it, but, I want to direct people to a few different resources because it is one of the more, it’s one of the darkest, kind of portions to the work the CIA has ever done.

02:02:51:28 – 02:03:22:29
Rob Kristoffersen
But our friends at the Not Alone podcast did a three part series back in 2019 on, MKUltra and just the, the, extent that, that project went to. There is another great podcast that just, made a five part series, on, a Canadian physicians part in that program. It’s called, madness. And that’s from the, the podcast Endless Thread.

02:03:22:29 – 02:03:39:24
Rob Kristoffersen
And it’s a really great series. And, one book I’ll recommend to that just came out last year because more and more people are starting to take an interest in this case. And it’s, a lot of it has to do with the death of a man named Frank Olson, which was the subject of a Netflix series called Wormwood.

02:03:39:27 – 02:03:57:13
Rob Kristoffersen
But, there’s a book that came out last year called Poisoner in Chief by, Stephen Kinzer, which is a really fascinating book. So, yeah, if you really want to see, like, the dark end of some of the, CIA’s research, go check out those things.

02:03:57:16 – 02:04:20:17
Dan LeFebvre
We’ll we’ll leave those for there. And, after the show, if we head back to the TV show and episode number five happens at a place called Maury Island. And according to the show, it happened on June 21st, 1947, two weeks before the Roswell incident. A man, a fisherman by the name of Ernest Reed, was out on Puget Sound checking his traps.

02:04:20:20 – 02:04:41:29
Dan LeFebvre
After about an hour, something appeared overhead. He described it as round. There’s, silver craft with holes in the middle and there were bigger than his boat. There were multiples of them. We see kind of a recreation of it and on the show, and they’re hovering less than 100ft over his boat. But there’s no noise. And then something seemed to go wrong.

02:04:41:29 – 02:05:01:18
Dan LeFebvre
We couldn’t tell if one of the ships was breaking apart or if it was trying to bomb him on purpose. But there’s pieces falling all over hitting his boat. And that’s when he called in a mayday, claiming that he was under attack from alien ships. But then, soon after the event, Reed recanted his story and said he was just trying to get some insurance money for fire damage on his boat.

02:05:01:20 – 02:05:18:13
Dan LeFebvre
And then the show says that this was the first time that, quote unquote, men in black hats were reported. When they showed up to silence the town. How much of that happened? And was this the first time that anyone saw the Men in Black?

02:05:18:16 – 02:05:49:28
Rob Kristoffersen
So this is, the the Maury Island incident is, one of the more controversial UFO cases. But as the story goes, that the gentleman’s name was, Harold Dahl. He was recovering logs in the Puget Sound on June 21st, 1947. That’s when he noticed, six donut shaped objects that were heading in his direction. And one of the objects appeared to struggle maintaining altitude.

02:05:50:01 – 02:06:15:11
Rob Kristoffersen
It dropped to about 1500 feet, and it floated directly over Dahl’s boat. And it started to drop what he claimed was slag like metal down into the sound. And some of it ended up hitting his boat. The debris ended up hitting his son Charles, breaking his arm, and some of the slag actually killed their dog too. Dahl claimed to take a photo of the craft, though.

02:06:15:11 – 02:06:55:06
Rob Kristoffersen
No, it’s never surfaced. Nobody’s ever seen this thing. So, you know, that’s, sketchy, sketchy as hell. But, he showed it to his supervisor, which was a man named Fred Christman. Christman didn’t believe him, though, and he went to investigate it for himself and claimed to have seen a UFO while he was out there investigating. So the next morning, a man wearing a black suit showed up at doll’s house and escorted him to a diner, and he proceeded to recount Dahl’s experience the day before as proof that he knew all about his experience.

02:06:55:08 – 02:07:24:06
Rob Kristoffersen
So Dahl was told by this man, don’t ever speak of it. Don’t ever tell anybody. Otherwise bad things are going to happen to you. So eventually, I mean, Dahl ended up telling his story to to a lot of people, but he eventually recanted his story. But it was investigated by two people. Kenneth Arnold, who I, you know, previously mentioned he was kind of the first, like, independent UFO investigator.

02:07:24:06 – 02:08:01:14
Rob Kristoffersen
And I think people looked to him just because he had a sighting and he was accompanied by a number, another man named captain EJ Smith, who had witnessed a UFO while piloting a passenger plane, sometime in July. They didn’t believe Dahl or Christman, though. The alleged debris that they had, they they had, I believe it was Kenneth Arnold had talked to a couple of, Army intelligence officers who ended up coming down.

02:08:01:14 – 02:08:32:04
Rob Kristoffersen
They were going to escort some of this, debris back to have it analyzed. And shortly after takeoff, their plane actually did go down in the Pacific Northwest. And, there’s been a lot of conspiracies that have come up, because of that. But, the reason this story and the Men in Black Angle itself was popularized was because of a book written by a man named Gray Barker called They Knew Too Much About Flying Saucers.

02:08:32:06 – 02:08:59:07
Rob Kristoffersen
The book featured the Murray Island case and a handful of and a handful of others in which individuals had contact with shady men wearing black suits, telling UFO witnesses not to talk about what they saw. And I think the interesting thing here is that after Dul kind of talked about his experience, he, his work, which was on the Puget Sound, kind of started to dry up.

02:08:59:07 – 02:09:45:22
Rob Kristoffersen
And his son went missing for a period of two weeks and was discovered working in a diner in Montana. And he had no clue how he got it, how he got there. And we know that portion of the story is true because there was an FBI file, opened on it. So there are some elements of this story, which are true, but, I think they’re used to fuel, like the more sensational aspects of this case because, I do believe at one point, Harold Dahl’s wife also attempted to stab him, because of all of the, controversy revolving around the case, you kind of just wanted to cut it out,

02:09:45:22 – 02:10:13:17
Rob Kristoffersen
but, yeah, almost stabbed him. But, this is like, one of the more controversial cases in that not a lot has been proven. And if I recall correctly, Fred Crispin was one of it was actually one of the people subpoenaed by the, Warren Commission when they were investigating, the assassination of JFK. And he has had ties to, the military and I think maybe the CIA.

02:10:13:17 – 02:10:23:23
Rob Kristoffersen
But, don’t don’t quote me on that. Exactly. But, yeah, it’s, it’s a kind of a whole can of worms. The the Maria Island incident.

02:10:23:25 – 02:10:42:13
Dan LeFebvre
Speaking of can of worms, I want to ask you about something else. About the the men in Black, because during this episode, we learn more about someone from season one. And in that season, he was simply known as The Fixer. In this episode in particular, we find out that his name is William and he used to be part of a remote viewing program for the CIA.

02:10:42:18 – 02:11:10:02
Dan LeFebvre
But then he left that program and joined a group simply known as the Men in Black. The idea that I got from this show was that the Men in Black isn’t a part of the CIA or the military, but they still seem to have powerful resources. And after I watched the, the show, this episode and kind of how they explained it, I still really, really wasn’t sure if William left the CIA to start The Men in Black on his own, or if he just joined the already existing group.

02:11:10:02 – 02:11:23:18
Dan LeFebvre
Somehow. I’m sure Men in Black can be, again, entire series by itself, but how well do you think the show did? Just explaining kind of the men in black themselves and who they’re supposed to be.

02:11:23:21 – 02:11:53:00
Rob Kristoffersen
There are a lot of different theories when it comes to The Men in Black. That’s definitely one that these are kind of government agents. Some believe that they are, independent agents that work of their own accord. Some believe that they are actually aliens as, when, during the, Mothman, series of sightings which you’ve covered with, our good friend Sam Fredrickson.

02:11:53:03 – 02:12:18:18
Rob Kristoffersen
They the people had encounters with men in black, and they would act as if they didn’t know what random mundane items were like. Pens. Like, there was one, case in which, the, maid reporter of the town, her name was Mary Hier. She was kind of the woman who led the charge on, reporting the Mothman sightings in the paper, printing the the reports.

02:12:18:18 – 02:12:44:01
Rob Kristoffersen
And she ended up having an encounter with, the strange man who, when he came into her office, he started asking strange questions like, what do you think John Keel would do if I. If, they told him to stop talking about the Mothman and stuff like that. And, at one point he reached for a pen and he was holding it as if he didn’t know what it was.

02:12:44:03 – 02:12:51:27
Rob Kristoffersen
And, Mary Higher said that, you know, he could have the pen, at which point he turned around and laughed and ran out.

02:12:52:02 – 02:12:54:15
Sean Jablonski
So like that. Yeah.

02:12:54:15 – 02:13:21:23
Rob Kristoffersen
There’s a lot of weird stuff around the Men in Black. There is even one theory that, guy named Paul Cornell who wrote this, this comic series called Saucer Country. And in it, his, take on the Men in Black was that, they were actually Air Force agents that would, as part of a hazing ritual, go and harass UFO witnesses that, their reports ended up in the news.

02:13:21:26 – 02:13:45:08
Rob Kristoffersen
So they’d show up on their door, you know, pretending to act like government agents and stuff like that. It’s, you know, there’s a lot of takes on, the, Men in Black and, they never cease to amaze me. Here’s another interesting account from this woman who claimed to be a remote viewer who said, at one point she was going to review remote view.

02:13:45:10 – 02:14:21:18
Rob Kristoffersen
The, Men in Black. So, like, remote viewing is kind of like, it’s sending your, like, body or out into the world to like, kind of like, see things from a distance, you know? So, this woman claimed that, these beings were, extradimensional beings from a different dimension. They, they kind of kept balance, you know, making sure that, evil, aliens didn’t interfere in human affairs.

02:14:21:20 – 02:14:24:00
Rob Kristoffersen
And they also had a ton of paperwork to do.

02:14:24:00 – 02:14:30:18
Dan LeFebvre
Well, it sounds like at least the at least the show is going off one of those theories, even though there’s a lot of them.

02:14:30:20 – 02:14:58:16
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah, there’s so many there’s so many angles that they, had to, work with on this and, they could, you know, go a million different places. And, you know, I’d say I’d say Project Blue Book went to the more mundane route. Now, I had a I had a conversation with, with my buddy Rich Hatem, the guy who wrote, the screenplay for The Mothman Prophecies.

02:14:58:23 – 02:15:21:13
Rob Kristoffersen
And he said that, when they were first, pitching this idea for Project Blue Book, he actually went in, and he was trying to, pitch himself as a showrunner for Project Blue Book. He didn’t get it, obviously, but, you know, it would have been it would have been fitting, seeing as how, you know, he’s, he’s well versed in this stuff.

02:15:21:16 – 02:15:46:25
Dan LeFebvre
Speaking of the show, if we head back, we’re in episode six now, and this is where we learn about the Robertson pal, as well as someone named David Dabrowski. The storyline in the show suggests that there’s a battle between control over UFO investigations between the U.S. Air Force and the CIA. The CIA puts the Air Force on trial with the Robertson Panel, which looks into the validity of Project Blue Book’s work and the hearing.

02:15:46:25 – 02:16:15:18
Dan LeFebvre
It seems no one is interested in really diving into the reports from Blue Book. They pretty much just skim them and then close them as if they already have the answer that they want. And this is just a formality. But that’s when David Dabrowski comes to the story. He convinces Hynek and Queen to let him talk to the panel, where he says that he was directed to be there by beings from another planet, planet Ventus, which is two galaxies beyond ours, and he leaves the room.

02:16:15:18 – 02:16:29:22
Dan LeFebvre
And then Quinn says, we’re doing our part by stopping people like Dabrowski from inciting panic around the nation, from people who might actually believe that they’re telling the truth. How well did the show do depicting this? Did any of that happen?

02:16:29:24 – 02:17:02:09
Rob Kristoffersen
So, the Robertson panel was a real panel. It was led by the CIA. And that did, in fact change Project Blue Book’s mission from, like, an open minded investigation to skeptical debunking. But it didn’t really happen. It didn’t really go down like this. Robertson panel was led, by the head of the CIA’s Office of Scientific Intelligence, and they saw the potential hysteria that these sightings could cause.

02:17:02:09 – 02:17:46:27
Rob Kristoffersen
Life magazine at the time was claiming that, the evidence of alien life was around the corner. They were, you know, pretty, they they believe that alien life was going to show up at any second. And, and in the last episode that I was on, there was a pair of, dramatic sightings, during two consecutive weeks over Washington, DC, that I talked about, that, really got the government a little worried, to the point where they, the CIA felt like they needed to step in and kind of gauge Project Blue Book and dictate its mission.

02:17:47:00 – 02:18:17:01
Rob Kristoffersen
The, number of UFO reports in 1952, right before the Robertson panel came in, went up dramatically. Most years after 1947, they would get like maybe 30 reports a year, 30 to 50. That year they got over 130. So they saw this as a huge concern. And they thought it could be used as, kind of like psychological warfare tactics.

02:18:17:03 – 02:18:45:09
Rob Kristoffersen
So they recommended educating the public on debunking sightings. And, and, you know, this isn’t to say that Dabrowski s character didn’t exist in the UFO, world. In the UFO culture, there were a number of people that were dubbed the contacts who claimed to have contact with Venusian aliens, who wanted mankind to basically get rid of its nuclear weapons to protect the environment.

02:18:45:11 – 02:19:01:24
Rob Kristoffersen
So, yeah, it’s, didn’t really go down the way it did on the show, but it’s, it’s close. I mean, the Robertson panel’s there, but, I as far as I know, there were no contacts that were led in front of the Robertson panel to testify at any one point.

02:19:01:26 – 02:19:28:11
Dan LeFebvre
Okay, well, that was I want to ask you about that, because in the show, the Borowski character, he is claiming that aliens directed him to go help prove the validity of Project Bluebook. But if aliens wanted to prove the validity, couldn’t they just like, show up to the hearings themselves? I think there is even a line in an earlier episode where Captain Quinn says something like, why are all these sightings happening way out in the woods?

02:19:28:11 – 02:19:39:20
Dan LeFebvre
Couldn’t they just come to like, Times Square? Why? Why do they have to be so cloak and dagger about everything? Are there any examples of stories where the the logic like that just kind of doesn’t make sense?

02:19:39:22 – 02:20:10:01
Rob Kristoffersen
So many contacts, especially in the 1950s, had stories like this, and they would also use that kind of similar logic to, in fact, pretty much all of them did. When it comes to these stories, like they’re never truly about going to the government with, this information, it’s usually about like, proving the validity of their own sightings.

02:20:10:01 – 02:20:45:03
Rob Kristoffersen
But I pretty much every single one of them, the Georgia Dembski, who was one of the most well known, contacts of the 1950s, basically, you know, reported the same things. There was George Van Tassel or Lucci, even during the the the Mothman stuff. Woodrow Darren Burger was that type of individual. And, despite the fact that Woodrow wasn’t coming to the government to say, you know, to kind of with the nuclear stuff.

02:20:45:06 – 02:21:07:04
Rob Kristoffersen
A lot of them did, a lot of them did, and a lot of them faked evidence to bolster their claims. And a lot of them made money doing it. So, in the 50s, that seemed to be the contact kind of thing, you know, make money claiming that you had contact with the aliens, that they’re peaceful, but they just want us to cut it with the nuclear crap.

02:21:07:06 – 02:21:28:29
Dan LeFebvre
Back in the show where it episode number seven now, and it is the Curse of the skinwalker. This case takes place at a ranch in Utah owned by the Chapman family. One night, their son, Billy is sleepwalking outside when three orbs of light fly over. And then they fly into the ground, forming a creepy sort of shadow monster or something of some sort.

02:21:29:02 – 02:21:48:18
Dan LeFebvre
The family runs away, of course, because that’s creepy. And, Bluebook is called to investigate. Our heroes are looking at the case. Hynek and coin are told the story of the skinwalker. As legend goes, the Ute nation used to abduct Navajo and sell them on the New Mexico slave market. So the Navajo put a curse on them.

02:21:48:18 – 02:22:14:04
Dan LeFebvre
And the land. And that land happens to be where the Chapman’s ranch is now. Skinwalker is the name of the that the Navajo gave to a medicine man who’s chosen to take the form of an animal in order to inflict pain and suffering on others. The explanation that the show gives for all of this is that the scientists at an Air Force base some ten miles east of the Chapman Ranch, are drilling down in the caverns under their ranch.

02:22:14:06 – 02:22:39:15
Dan LeFebvre
They’re using a high powered water mixture into the fault line, and these release pockets of ethylene gas that can give people oral and visual hallucinations. So it’s quite a connection from the skinwalker to just being a hallucination. But was Bluebook involved in Skinwalkers and this idea that they’re just a hallucination like the show indicates?

02:22:39:18 – 02:23:15:08
Rob Kristoffersen
The basis for this episode is an actual ranch in the Ute Valley of Utah. And, it’s it’s called Skinwalker Ranch. It was owned by a couple named Terry and Glenn Sherman, and they claim to have experienced rather large wolves, strange UFOs, portals, poltergeist like phenomenon, and a variety of other phenomenon on their property. The skinwalker, has kind of become this concept appropriated by from like Native American culture.

02:23:15:08 – 02:23:41:28
Rob Kristoffersen
And it’s largely because of a book called hunt for the skinwalker, which was, chronicled the Sherman’s time on the ranch. It’s safe to say that Project Bluebook never investigated this case and never really would have, either. It wouldn’t be in their wheelhouse at all. They were really more concerned with investigating, like single sightings as opposed to like long term areas and stuff like that.

02:23:41:28 – 02:24:13:16
Rob Kristoffersen
But, yeah, in many ways, this episode seems like a plug for the new show that they had started that was airing after Project Blue Book. The season finale. It was called, The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch. It’s a Brandon Fugal show. It’s, it’s definitely a moment to cash in. That sighting didn’t come. Well, the property didn’t really come to the forefront until, the mid 90s.

02:24:13:16 – 02:24:28:19
Rob Kristoffersen
And really, it didn’t come to the public conscious until about 2006, ten years later. But, yeah, it definitely seemed like more of a money grab. And, Project Blue Book wouldn’t be, investigating a place like this.

02:24:28:19 – 02:24:29:21
Sean Jablonski
Yeah, yeah.

02:24:29:23 – 02:24:52:09
Dan LeFebvre
Well, if we head back to the show, we’re on episode number eight, and it introduces another concept that is familiar with, UFOs. And that would be hangar 18. Hynek and Quinn are told about it by a mechanical engineer named John. He explains that hangar 18 looks more like a storage building than a hangar, but the real lab is six floors deep.

02:24:52:12 – 02:25:09:03
Dan LeFebvre
That’s where they reverse engineer Soviet technology. But this time, John says they have something that’s not Soviet. The suggestion they’re being that it’s extraterrestrial. What is hangar 18? And are there reports of reverse engineering UFOs there?

02:25:09:06 – 02:25:41:02
Rob Kristoffersen
The idea of hangar 18 is actually connected to the Roswell crash, and in particular to a few pilots who claim to have flown wreckage and alien bodies to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. One of them is a man named, Oliver Henderson, who, told his story to a number of, Roswell investigators, claimed that, he actually flew the, the child sized coffins, all the way to, Wright-Patterson.

02:25:41:04 – 02:26:08:05
Rob Kristoffersen
And there’s a World War two flying ace named Marion Black. Mack Magruder, who, also claimed to actually see living alien beings walking around in this, fictional hangar. There is really no hangar 18. It’s just kind of been this myth that has been propagated ever since, like the Roswell investigation. But, I mean, it did inspire a megadeth song, so I that’s that’s got to be worth something.

02:26:08:05 – 02:26:11:01
Dan LeFebvre
It’s gotta be worth something. Yeah.

02:26:11:03 – 02:26:11:12
Sean Jablonski
There you.

02:26:11:12 – 02:26:26:11
Dan LeFebvre
Go. What about the idea that Hynek was there? Because we see in the show that Hynek actually gets there. Is there anything to suggest that Hynek himself was at any place like that?

02:26:26:13 – 02:26:47:03
Rob Kristoffersen
No, no, there’s, Yeah. There’s nothing. It’s, Hynek was really close with his secretary, and he seemed to tell his secretary pretty much everything. There might have been some secrets that Hynek, you know, kept to himself, but, Yeah, I don’t think Hynek visited any kind of facility like that.

02:26:47:05 – 02:27:07:20
Dan LeFebvre
Well, back in the show now we’re at episode number nine, and this case is a Soviet bomber carrying a nuclear bomb that gets cut into by a UFO over Canadian airspace. And Bluebook is called in because the Canadian Air Force doesn’t have a UFO program. So Hynek and Quinn make their way to a small logging community in a place called Hartley Bay.

02:27:07:23 – 02:27:25:26
Dan LeFebvre
Way out in the middle of nowhere, they find the plane along with the two pilots that survived. One is just called Alex, but the other pilots given a full name, Lieutenant Colonel Yuri Alinsky. And that makes me think that maybe Alex is made up, but maybe Yuri is real. How much of this case really happened?

02:27:25:28 – 02:27:55:24
Rob Kristoffersen
So the the actual case that this episode is based on is, it’s a little, it’s honestly a little more terrifying than, than the one on, this, this particular episode. So, on the night of November 23rd, 1953, the U.S Air Defense Command near the US Canadian border detected a blip on radar over Ristic and over restricted airspace above Lake Superior.

02:27:55:26 – 02:28:26:26
Rob Kristoffersen
The Air Force scrambled an F 89 C Scorpion jet from Kinross Air Force Base, piloted by First Lieutenant Felix Moncler and Second Lieutenant Robert Wilson, and from the start, Robert Wilson had trouble tracking this thing once he got in the air and it kept changing course, like, really quick. But with the aid of, ground control, they were eventually able to kind of get a lock on this object, and they pursued it for over 30 minutes, getting closer and closer.

02:28:26:29 – 02:29:03:21
Rob Kristoffersen
Eventually, Michael and Wilson were guided down from 25,000ft to about 7000ft. They watched, the radar operators watched as the, you know, one radar blip chased the other, and a short while later they lost radio contact with Montclair and Wilson, and the witnesses there claimed to see on radar. These two objects merge into one and fly off. Now, Monreal and Wilson have never been seen again.

02:29:03:24 – 02:29:28:27
Rob Kristoffersen
Nobody knows what happened to them. Wreckage from their plane has never been found. They just disappeared. And, you know, there have been some like hoaxers coming forward. There was 1 in 2006. He claimed to be from a company called the Great Lakes Diving Company. They claim that, they walked up, they found something like, you know, a plane in Lake Superior.

02:29:28:27 – 02:29:48:03
Rob Kristoffersen
There was never it was ruled a hoax. But like Moncler and Wilson have never been seen since. And if you look at, McCullough’s, tombstone, his memorial, it’s, it’s explicitly states that he died while in pursuit of a UFO.

02:29:48:06 – 02:29:54:29
Dan LeFebvre
What about the idea? In this episode, we see Doctor Hynek actually neutralize an atomic bomb. Did he ever actually do anything like that?

02:29:55:01 – 02:29:57:10
Sean Jablonski
Probably not.

02:29:57:12 – 02:30:18:06
Rob Kristoffersen
You know, he was, he had worked with rocketry, but I don’t think he had worked with the atomic bomb specifically. And, you know, maybe in a situation, he’d be able to know how to disarm it. But I don’t know. What I love about this show is like, they they kind of treat JL and Hynek as if he’s like a jack of all trades.

02:30:18:09 – 02:30:22:18
Dan LeFebvre
He’s the hero of the show. So of course he’s going to save the day no matter what.

02:30:22:21 – 02:30:23:06
Sean Jablonski
Yeah.

02:30:23:06 – 02:30:25:14
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah, absolutely.

02:30:25:16 – 02:30:56:07
Dan LeFebvre
Well at the end of that episode, episode nine, Doctor Hynek and Captain Quinn get to meet Senator John F Kennedy when he stops by the Project Bluebook office. And the case from Kennedy takes place during Operation Main Breaks. This goes into episode number ten. There’s, massive multinational military exercise. It involves some 200 ships, 80,000 men. And if anything happens during a war exercise that size near Russian territory, it could spark World War three.

02:30:56:10 – 02:31:23:13
Dan LeFebvre
So Heineken, Quinn, investigate aboard USS Wisconsin in the North Atlantic near Norway. They find out that this UFO experience that this, sighting that’s happened, it’s not coming from the sky like all the others, but it’s actually coming from under water. But there’s something else about this. There’s a fishing trawler that was there. It left Shanghai some 11,000 miles away just two days ago, and the fuel tank is still almost full.

02:31:23:15 – 02:31:44:02
Dan LeFebvre
Needless to say, that’s impossible. And at the end of the episode, Quinn takes a mini sub underwater to where the flying crafts are coming from. But the admiral orders depth charges dropped anyway, and the last we see of him is a massive explosion outside his sub. We assume he’s dead, except Doctor Hynek believes maybe he’s not. Maybe he was transported somehow.

02:31:44:02 – 02:31:49:21
Dan LeFebvre
Like that boat from Shanghai. Did any of that happen?

02:31:49:24 – 02:32:18:06
Rob Kristoffersen
Operation Main Brace itself was a real operation. Like the sensational part, you know, definitely didn’t didn’t happen. But, Operation Main Brace at the time, was composed of dozens of NATO organizations that, had sent ships to participate. At the time, it was the largest peacetime military exercise since World War two. And it was meant to, simulate a mock attack on Europe.

02:32:18:09 – 02:32:57:12
Rob Kristoffersen
It was involved, 200 ships, a thousand planes and over 80,000 men. And during this exercise, UFOs were spotted. The first sighting came on September 13th, 1952. The crew of a Danish destroyer spotted a triangular shaped object with blue lights on it, moving through the night sky at high rates of speed. Seven days later, aboard the USS Franklin Delano Roosevelt, a reporter named Wallace Litwin claimed that several pilots and flight crew members saw a silver colored sphere in the sky.

02:32:57:14 – 02:33:23:11
Rob Kristoffersen
Following behind the fleet. There is an actual photo of this object as well, though. Many have tried to debunk it as a weather balloon. It doesn’t appear to be a weather balloon. And, the only, places that it could have been launched from have, denied launching weather balloons around this time. It was also moving way, way too fast to be a weather balloon.

02:33:23:13 – 02:34:03:08
Rob Kristoffersen
An object had been seen the day before of that sighting, on September 19th, as a British meteor jet was returning to an airfield after conducting exercises in the North Sea. And, the pilot of that flight claimed to see a strange silver circular craft following the meteor. They described its movements as that of a falling leaf from a tree, which, is a common, thing reported in a lot of UFO sightings, is that some of these objects appear to be like, doing this slow, the slow falling pattern at times.

02:34:03:10 – 02:34:24:19
Rob Kristoffersen
The objects stopped in mid-air, rotated, and then took off fast away from everybody else. But, yeah, maybe this was a real exercise. They saw some UFOs. I don’t know that Kennedy really played a part in it, but, it is, pretty fascinating. Set of sightings.

02:34:24:21 – 02:34:28:15
Dan LeFebvre
Was Kennedy associated with Project Blue Book at all?

02:34:28:17 – 02:34:54:21
Rob Kristoffersen
No, he was not. There have been, theories that people have suggested, claiming that Kennedy knew alien secrets that he had told them to Marilyn Monroe and that that’s why the both of them were assassinated. But there’s really no, truth behind those statements at all. It’s just, conspiracy theory.

02:34:54:24 – 02:35:16:18
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, I think the this show kind of alludes that it was, I think at the end of episode number eight, there was a brief line of dialog with Daniel Baker in the CIA talking to General Harding, saying, when it comes to the CIA, no one is untouchable, right? It kind of tie in my mind ties. Okay. It’s something with the JFK assassination as a CIA plot somehow tied to Blue Book.

02:35:16:20 – 02:35:51:05
Rob Kristoffersen
Right? Right. And that’s the thing. And that’s also like the ambiguity that the, assassination of John, John F Kennedy is kind of, lended itself to the Warren Commission, really didn’t do a good job explaining themselves and explaining, everything that happened. But, yeah, it’s just it seems like with some conspiracy theories, and the longer that they are around, the more they get added to and the more people come out of the woodwork saying, well, you know, this happened or that happened.

02:35:51:07 – 02:35:59:10
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah. It’s always it’s always interesting to read them sometimes, but, yeah. So I don’t put a lot of stuck.

02:35:59:12 – 02:36:17:10
Dan LeFebvre
Well, that makes sense. I did want to ask about, I think was in episode three, there was a scene where we saw Heinecke and Queen in a Jeep and a big UFO flies over light, shine down. And then by the time the camera focuses on the Jeep again, Heinicke and Queen are gone, giving the impression that they were both abducted.

02:36:17:12 – 02:36:20:13
Dan LeFebvre
Was Doctor Hynek ever abducted himself?

02:36:20:15 – 02:36:54:18
Rob Kristoffersen
No. You. He was never abducted. He, He. When he came to, present his theories and stuff like that, he was very guarded. He was always very, skeptical. He was never rash to point to one thing. He had his theories and and he had his leanings. But when it came to a case by case basis, he, he would never he would never go there, per se and say, you know, that this is true or that is true.

02:36:54:18 – 02:37:11:19
Rob Kristoffersen
And, given that, Hynek even disputed the one UFO sighting that he claimed to have while looking through a telescope. So, yeah, he’s always been that skeptical kind of guy. But, as far as I could tell, and through all the research, he has never been abducted.

02:37:11:23 – 02:37:34:14
Dan LeFebvre
But we have talked about a lot of different concepts and things that they put into the show, things like area 51 and, and Skinwalker Ranch and these other elements. If you were in charge of this season of Project Bluebook, was there anything that you wish would have made it onto the show that they left out? I think there.

02:37:34:14 – 02:38:03:28
Rob Kristoffersen
Are a lot of other interesting sightings that they could have really gone to. And and like I say with, especially with the Skinwalker Ranch episode, you look at that and you see that it’s, you know, just, kind of a walking advertisement for another show that’s, that’s coming out. But, I’m glad that they included things like the the Kelly Hopkinsville incident.

02:38:03:28 – 02:38:07:18
Rob Kristoffersen
If I could,

02:38:07:21 – 02:38:52:05
Rob Kristoffersen
Trying to think, what would I have them include? I think the Herbert Shermer sighting is fascinating in the fact that we’re talking about a police officer that, claims to have been abducted by aliens. I think that would have been a more interesting case to present. In. That means there’s a case known as the, RV 47 case, and it’s kind of a the one case that many have put up as, like, the best scientific evidence for a UFO because it it literally involved a UFO following a, radar plane in the sky over, like, hundreds of miles.

02:38:52:06 – 02:39:11:25
Rob Kristoffersen
It’s, it’s a pretty fascinating case. Really, I think they did the best that they could with the season, but, Yeah, the. I can’t think of any other cases off the top of my head right now, but, those two are, I think would have made for interesting episodes.

02:39:11:28 – 02:39:18:18
Dan LeFebvre
Well, thank you so much for your time to come on to chat about Project Blue Book season two. I’ve learned a lot. It’s been it’s been a fun chat. Yeah.

02:39:18:18 – 02:39:29:26
Rob Kristoffersen
Thank you again for having me on this. Been so fun.

02:39:29:29 – 02:39:48:19
Dan LeFebvre
And that brings us to an end of the two seasons of the History Channel’s Project Blue Book. But stick around because we still have the chat with Project Blue Book’s creator, David O’Leary and showrunner Sean John Belinski to get another angle of the whole show that’s coming up right on the other side of our Two Truths and a lie game for season two.

02:39:48:23 – 02:40:16:08
Dan LeFebvre
And as a quick refresher, here are they two truths and a lie for season two of Project Blue Book number one. In the 1950s, the U.S. government illegally experimented with LSD, an unwitting U.S. citizens. Number two, the phrase little green men comes from a close encounter in Kentucky. Number three, Project Blue Book was commissioned by JFK. Did you figure out which one is a lie?

02:40:16:10 – 02:40:38:00
Dan LeFebvre
Again, I’ve got the answer in the envelope, so let’s open that up. And the lie this time is number three. As rat pointed out, President Kennedy was not associated with Project Blue Book at all. There has been some speculation that maybe he knew about alien secrets, but there really hasn’t been any proof of that. Okay, now I’ve got one more remastered episode for you today about Project Blue Book.

02:40:38:00 – 02:41:00:04
Dan LeFebvre
Coming up soon will be my chat from 2021 with the creator of Project Blue Book, David O’Leary, along with the showrunner, a Project Blue Book, Sean Job Lynskey. But first, let’s set up one final game of Two Truths and a lie for that episode. Number one, they wrote a season three, a Project Blue Book telling stories beyond the United States.

02:41:00:07 – 02:41:26:11
Dan LeFebvre
Number two, the Roswell Incident was made famous by Project Blue Book number three. David and Sean have both had unexplained experiences. Okay, now let’s hear from David O’Leary and Sandra Belinsky about creating Project Blue Book.

02:41:26:13 – 02:41:49:03
Dan LeFebvre
Or UFO mention either they just won’t believe what you say, or they’ll simply watch it to find a way to tell you that you’re wrong. I can only imagine how difficult that is when you layer that on to the normal difficulties of trying to pitch and create a show that’s based on UFOs. So my first question is simply why Project Blue Book?

02:41:49:09 – 02:41:59:13
Dan LeFebvre
Why did you decide to create a show around UFOs when you could create a show that doesn’t have nearly as much controversy surrounding it? David, as the creator, want to start with you?

02:41:59:15 – 02:42:23:25
David O’Leary
Yeah. Sure thing. And, hey, everybody’s there. And, Dan, thanks for having us. Thanks for having us on. Yeah. You know, I mean, listen, for me, and for Sean as well, I, I, we like UFOs have been sort of a life long obsession interest. I’ve always, always had a deep interest in the subject matter going all the way back to when I was a kid.

02:42:23:28 – 02:42:45:15
David O’Leary
I’m not sure why, but I just, like, was always. You know, fascinated with the unknown. And it always rang true to me. I would watch, you know, Unsolved Mysteries in the 1980s or scare the hell you know, scare the crap out of myself and read Whitley Strivers Communion when I was like 9 or 10 years old. And it just it always felt authentic and true.

02:42:45:15 – 02:43:08:24
David O’Leary
So like especially, you know, some of the more famous cases in terms of, in terms of bluebook, you know, I, I, you know, as I became an adult and moved out to LA and pursued a career in writing and all that kind of stuff, I wanted, you know, this was sort of right before I, you know, to enter 2017 and, like, UFOs kind of really hit the news again.

02:43:09:01 – 02:43:48:01
David O’Leary
And there wasn’t actually, frankly, a lot of UFO stuff on TV. X-Files had sort of come to its end and I become a bit of, of, of a UFO history buff. And Project Blue Book always just felt like such an interesting, ripe sort of world for TV in that it was period. You know, it had all these other interesting elements in the 1950s in terms of the Cold War and the rise of the atomic age and all that kind of stuff, and then just a plethora of like incredible pieces and then really just a focus on the characters who who sort of led that effort with doctor J and Hynek and, Captain

02:43:48:01 – 02:44:10:10
David O’Leary
Ed Peltz, sort of the first director of Project Bluebook boat who basically shifted sides and, and, and became these, you know, adamant believers that there was something worthy of rigorous scientific study here. So, I think it began with that idea of, of could retell, could we tell a story, you know, sort of historical drama through the lens of these characters?

02:44:10:13 – 02:44:34:22
David O’Leary
And, I was fortunate that, like, I guess there wasn’t a lot of UFO stuff at the time. And, I think Project Bluebook presented a certain, certain natural engine with sort of a, a kind of a different case every week with a really interesting sort of backdrop of getting to kind of tell it in this sort of noir 1950s, sort of shadowy sort of way.

02:44:34:22 – 02:44:46:21
David O’Leary
And, and we were just very, very fortunate that, you know, it took some time, but that eventually, it found a home, with eight studios and, and and history.

02:44:46:24 – 02:44:48:04
Dan LeFebvre
How about you? How did you.

02:44:48:09 – 02:45:16:28
David O’Leary
Kind of get involved in this? So I came a little later. You know, once David had, you know, sort of researched and written the script and had connected with, Robert Zemeckis, and I think they had had a series order by that point. And, you know, I’ve been in the television business for it’s like 25 years plus at this point, I think, and so I’ve, you know, every TV show needs to have a showrunner at some point.

02:45:16:28 – 02:45:38:11
David O’Leary
And David is talented as he is. Had not been in that position before. And so if you’re going to start any business, you’re generally going to want somebody who has that experience to sort of be in there and help help guide the process and understand what’s coming up in front of you and how to run a writer’s room and just, just all of the things you’re not going to know if you haven’t done it.

02:45:38:12 – 02:45:59:02
David O’Leary
So, I essentially interviewed for the job, which began with, meeting with David at a diner. And we realized very quickly that, like him, I, I’ve kind of been obsessed with UFOs my whole life. It’s been something that since I was a kid, I remember seeing one when I was ten years old that. Swear to God.

02:45:59:04 – 02:46:17:04
David O’Leary
And so it’s just something I’ve always been fascinated with. So we were trading stories to the point where we stayed so long. I got a parking ticket. And then, of course, you got to go. You got to go through the gantlet of meeting the studio and the producers and the network and all that stuff, and it just felt like such a very sort of natural, match.

02:46:17:06 – 02:46:47:15
David O’Leary
And then we just sort of move forward from there that, you know, we really connected on having the same passion, you know, in terms of that. But, so I’m just happy to have had the opportunity, to meet, you know, someone who shares that, and, you know, in terms of how I look at just even the phenomenon and want to tell those stories, I feel like, I mean, it’s very much in vogue right now for, for people to be talking about UFOs in a very serious way.

02:46:47:18 – 02:47:11:21
David O’Leary
And I think, like any new science and it is a bit of a science now because we’re just starting to discover it, because we have sort of the minds that are being applied to it and the science and the technology, and the, credibility of the people who’ve come forward. But for people to go back to your earlier point, for people who can, you know, when you talk about is there controversy around UFOs or why stir that up?

02:47:11:21 – 02:47:28:19
David O’Leary
Or when people say that, you know, my first question is like, well, what do you know about UFOs? I would ask, like, what do you know about the history of UFOs? Because a lot of people want to throw it off as something, you know, tinfoil hat wearing silly. Like, if they were here, they’d be landing on the front lawn of the white House and blah, blah, blah.

02:47:28:20 – 02:47:52:01
David O’Leary
But when you really understand the history, and the amount of cases and the amount of credible people that have come forward, physical evidence, you know, visual evidence, all of this, it is without a doubt something that exists. And I count myself as a true believer. And the second question I would ask somebody is, what do you believe about it?

02:47:52:08 – 02:48:11:16
David O’Leary
What do you have to believe to believe that it doesn’t exist? You know, and oftentimes people will sort of stumble and go, well, I just think that this would happen if there would be this, that the aliens would have said something by now. And then when you dig into that, you realize it’s just sort of a, a belief people have that sort of based on an like on a feeling.

02:48:11:19 – 02:48:28:23
David O’Leary
Right? Which is just like, oh, I don’t know. I just feel like it wouldn’t happen this way, blah, blah, blah. And it’s like when you sort of dig into that, it’s, I would imagine the way people would have felt before, I don’t know. We discovered bacteria when we didn’t have a microscope. You know, it’s demons inside your body.

02:48:28:24 – 02:48:45:29
David O’Leary
You know, that’s what it’s got to be. And then when the science caught up and we were able to see what was actually going on, there’s still a bridge that has to happen where people have to get on board and understand that the facts that are there and the people that are studying it are not crazy, and then all of this stuff gets borne out.

02:48:45:29 – 02:49:13:22
David O’Leary
So I feel like that’s a very important, pursuit right now, especially in a world where truth is such a, malleable concept. And so I love the idea that David and I, you know, again, I think found, a path and the passion towards wanting to get those ideas out there that it’s, it’s it’s be part of that notion of getting the truth out to an audience.

02:49:13:24 – 02:49:22:10
Dan LeFebvre
What was your interest kind of starting with that? You said you had an experience that at ten, it was that kind of when your interest in UFO started?

02:49:22:12 – 02:49:43:05
David O’Leary
100%, I, I was in, I was in New York City, which, where I grew up and saw lights in the sky moving, you know, silently information. There were these long sort of hexagonal type lights. And I remember very clearly, I can still see it very clearly. The moment where you look up and I’m like, am I seeing what I’m seeing?

02:49:43:07 – 02:49:58:28
David O’Leary
Could it be what I think it is? It has to be something like just this. You go through this whole range of emotions and, and of course, I was a kid, you know, but I still remember it very clearly to this day. So. Yeah, I mean, that’s where it had to start for sure.

02:49:59:01 – 02:50:01:27
Dan LeFebvre
David, have you ever had an experience?

02:50:01:29 – 02:50:25:21
David O’Leary
So I so I had something weird happened to me much later. And it was actually after I sold the, the show, but before the show got picked up to series and I actually, like, didn’t share it for a while, except with like, my wife and like basically I was walking home. It was I was walking home, I lived, I lived, then I lived, kind of near the grove for people living in Los Angeles.

02:50:25:24 – 02:50:40:28
David O’Leary
I was walking home through my neighborhood, and I was weirdly, I had a park a couple blocks away because of street parking, which was sort of a rare thing, and it was a quiet night. It was kind of late. And then the other strange thing was I was actually on the phone at the time, late with a friend of mine, which was also kind of just not use it.

02:50:40:28 – 02:51:04:11
David O’Leary
But I’m so glad I was that I wasn’t by myself, because I think I would have freaked out even more. And I saw what looked like a teardrop shaped sort of self luminescent, almost like a green kind of Chinese lantern emerge from out of the trees, like 25, 30ft above me. And I stopped and I did exactly what Sean does.

02:51:04:11 – 02:51:29:27
David O’Leary
And with so many UFO witnesses do and sort of be like, is that a drone? What is that? I’m not hearing anything like worrying, then I don’t know if this happened or not, but it felt like it started. It sort of stopped and it was kind of flickering and it sort of started to move towards me. And, I panicked and I, I’m on the phone with a friend of mine, and he sort of black, and he doesn’t understand what’s going on.

02:51:29:27 – 02:51:49:05
David O’Leary
I’m like, dude, I’m like. And I duck under it. And then it just sort of like continued on, kind of floating over the, sort of the, like the air I lived in in a sort of two storey house. So it’s just like, you know, like 30, 40ft in the air just over the houses and continued behind, behind, you know, some line of trees and stuff.

02:51:49:07 – 02:52:09:18
David O’Leary
Other than, like, talking to my wife about it, I didn’t share it for like a year. Because I, I don’t know, like, I, I, I like, didn’t want to be the guy with, like, a UFO show who, like, suddenly had this weird UFO variant, but, I eventually, did sort of talk about it because I also realized served to Sean’s point, too.

02:52:09:18 – 02:52:27:13
David O’Leary
And just like in terms of getting the truth out, like, I don’t know exactly what it was. And hey, maybe it was a drone and I was just like, I freaked myself out or something, but it was very oddly shaped, and it was very weird and sort of how it moved. It was sort of like a balloon, like a lit up balloon.

02:52:27:16 – 02:52:49:22
David O’Leary
But, you know, so that that was sort of the, that’s the only time I think I’ve seen something where I really couldn’t identify it, you know? And then I think so much about UFOs is sort of how it makes you feel. It definitely felt strange. Like it felt. It felt like something as opposed to just like, oh, that’s, you know, I just I couldn’t place what that would be.

02:52:49:24 – 02:53:06:23
David O’Leary
Especially because it was like, in the branches of trees and sort of like, you know, and then later on, like, actually when we were doing the show, like we found out there are like, you know, these cases of green fireballs, we even did an episode on them. And that’s a little bit of what it I didn’t actually know that at the time.

02:53:06:23 – 02:53:13:29
David O’Leary
And that’s sort of like what it came out like to me. So I don’t know. I don’t know what that was. Yeah.

02:53:14:00 – 02:53:17:06
Dan LeFebvre
You don’t usually don’t try to fly a drone through the trees.

02:53:17:10 – 02:53:27:27
David O’Leary
Yeah. Right. Yeah. It was very weird. It almost looks like it came out of the tree. Like it was very like I saw it in the branches and kind of emerged from, like. It was very sad. Wow.

02:53:28:01 – 02:53:44:23
Dan LeFebvre
That’s weird. Well, go back to the show. You’ve both worked on shows that are not based on true events as well as, of course, Project Bluebook, which is what are some of the differences in the ways that you approach a show when it’s based on true events compared to a completely fictional story? Sean, me let’s start with you this time.

02:53:45:00 – 02:54:03:29
David O’Leary
Sure. I, I’m going to steal a quote, and I don’t know who to credit it to, but, I you know what I think it was? Mark Twain is like, never let the truth get in the way of a good story. And I think you find that out right away. Now, I’ve had the the the. I tend to love historical pieces.

02:54:03:29 – 02:54:27:03
David O’Leary
I’ve done a few development wise, you know, over the years, Tesla and Edison, the Bonaparte’s. There’s been a couple other in there, and it’s been a bit of a learning curve trying to apply storytelling to what actually happened. And, whether it is the network exec saying, I don’t care, we need better television. And what exactly happened in that moment?

02:54:27:05 – 02:54:31:28
David O’Leary
Or just an instinct from a storytelling point of view? You know, look.

02:54:32:01 – 02:54:33:18
Sean Jablonski
It.

02:54:33:20 – 02:54:56:11
David O’Leary
Taking history and making a story of it. You can do a documentary right there. That’s why they exist. Because and a lot of times there’s great history that you couldn’t write this stuff. But when you’re trying to make a television show and you need to sort of hit your brakes and you need to engage an audience and you want to give your characters an emotional arc, you kind of have to.

02:54:56:11 – 02:55:16:24
David O’Leary
And it sounds like simple, but it’s actually kind of hard. You have to sort of really give yourself permission to, expand on it. Because otherwise you’re sort of I, I remember feeling almost, you know, I definitely had a lot of deference to the history and the people, and you never want to mess with that.

02:55:16:24 – 02:55:38:09
David O’Leary
But at the same time, you have to again, do your job and and sell it to an audience. So, I feel like I’m rambling a little bit, but I just think you have to have the courage to kind of get out there and really tell the story that you’re wanting to tell and have respect for the people in the material.

02:55:38:12 – 02:55:57:28
David O’Leary
But be a little fearless in how you do it. Otherwise, you know, you’re never going to you never going to cross the boundary and just say, nobody’s ever going to say what? What a really wonderfully factually accurate television show. Do you know what I mean? And get you get yourself ratings and an audience. And I even know, like, something like the Queen.

02:55:57:28 – 02:56:21:23
David O’Leary
I mean, how much can they have been in those rooms where those people were talking and understand what was said? And, lastly, I had a really good mentor. I grew up under basically Tom Fontana, who was sort of my mentor into the business, and he said, if you’re going to do something historical, look for those, look at the history, and then find the moments in between that might not necessarily even be written about.

02:56:21:26 – 02:56:45:00
David O’Leary
Get in there and use your writing ability to figure out what could have happened, what could have connected those dots, how could have, though? How could those characters have moved from point A to point B? That’s not being written about, you know? And thankfully, audiences are very forgiving these days. And I, I have to say like, Quentin Tarantino was a big inspiration in a weird way.

02:56:45:00 – 02:57:03:05
David O’Leary
When I saw Inglorious Bastards, I went, wait, you can’t kill Hitler in a theater? That never happened. And yet at the same time, I remember as an audience thinking, this is the most exhilarating thing I’ve seen because it felt like he was having the courage to go. I want to tell the story that’s going to get people excited.

02:57:03:05 – 02:57:27:05
David O’Leary
And I think if you set the table for your audience that way and say, look, this is inspired by true events, we are not telling that, you know, accurately. We’re inspired. You know, we’re inspired by it and doing it. I think you’re okay. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think we, we we quickly realized is exactly what Sean said, that we needed to put entertainment and emotion first.

02:57:27:12 – 02:57:46:02
David O’Leary
You know what I mean? Like, people are going to tune. Otherwise you’re you’re just going to watch a documentary on Project Blue Book. If you just want to know the facts, you know it’s all there. You can read. There’s wonderful books we have. We’ve read them. What? You know who we need to tell a story that about about people, about human beings going through these events.

02:57:46:05 – 02:58:04:22
David O’Leary
You know, we kind of quickly realize the heart and this, you know, the heart and soul of the show was Hynek and Quinn. That relationship, along with all of our other, you know, sort of six primary leads, the generals, you know, Susie and Mimi, all that stuff. Mimi and Hynek. So, but you know what?

02:58:04:22 – 02:58:33:09
David O’Leary
You what we found a way to do, I think rather hopefully rather well, was take those kernels of truth and, you know, and and put them into and then and then weed them into a narrative yarn that was hopefully enjoyable, entertaining, emotionally evocative, while while having but but also encouraging people to be like, hey, like that. Like every week was a case that really happened, within within an episode, we we’d have little Easter eggs of things that were really going on at the time.

02:58:33:09 – 02:58:59:08
David O’Leary
We’d explore other things that were sort of in the social fabric of the 1950s, bomb shelters and, and, you know, paranoia. And, and you know, this. Yeah. You know, like, people tapping your phones and all that stuff. Russia’s interest, interest in UFOs, all that stuff. So, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. One other quick thing to we also had Paul Hynek, who was, you know, Jalen Hynek son, as a consulting, producer on the show.

02:58:59:08 – 02:59:18:21
David O’Leary
And, you know, that felt like any time we were, you know, doing something that made us a little squeamish or whatever he was, he would always say, which is wonderful. He’d say, I think my dad would love this, you know? And so that really gave us a lot of, you know, permission. It felt like to kind of run with it and get a blessing.

02:59:18:24 – 02:59:19:05
David O’Leary
Yeah.

02:59:19:12 – 02:59:22:21
Dan LeFebvre
Just for that, that topic. Are you talking about UFO? Was it, you know.

02:59:22:24 – 02:59:23:09
Sean Jablonski

02:59:23:12 – 02:59:31:17
Dan LeFebvre
Unexplained. Right. And then government cover ups where obviously we don’t know a lot of stuff that’s going on there. Did you find.

02:59:31:19 – 02:59:32:03
David O’Leary
Bluebook.

02:59:32:03 – 02:59:40:13
Dan LeFebvre
To be more challenging to fill in some of those gaps, then completely fictional? Because there is just a lot of it that we don’t know.

02:59:40:15 – 03:00:01:28
David O’Leary
Did SAR de. I’ll jump in. Yeah. The thing we talked about very early on was that it’s we’re riding a line between we can never say they exist or the show goes away because the whole idea is they’re searching for the truth. Right. So that was always a hard line to kind of kind of deal with. And something we were very aware of every episode.

03:00:02:01 – 03:00:25:11
David O’Leary
And one of the challenges too, is like, you realize it’s not a, it’s not a cop show where you show up and there’s a body, our guys show up and somebody’s saying, no, no, no, I saw it in the sky. You know what it’s like. So how do you how do you tell those stories? In, in, in give it all of that sort of energy and interest and, and, you know, a revelation, every act kind of thing.

03:00:25:11 – 03:00:48:20
David O’Leary
So that’s right. And, and the thing we realized was that we had to thrust our leads and our audience into the case, you know, we had to thrust them into these events to some degree. So things would happen to Clinic and Quinn as they would investigate a case that would often not start with, you know, a civilian witness or a military witness or multiple witnesses seeing something they couldn’t explain.

03:00:48:20 – 03:01:10:11
David O’Leary
It wouldn’t the case wouldn’t be over. It would lead down a rabbit hole of of more revelations. But as Sean said, it’s exactly right. We would always want to walk that line like we’d always have, like a plausible other, answer, no matter how deep. And we went. I mean, there’s an episode early on where we go to, you know, Operation Paperclip.

03:01:10:11 – 03:01:44:12
David O’Leary
We go into, like, the sin base and there looks that it’s like they’re staring at what looks like an alien. An alien in a tank, you know, but there’s an alternate explanation there that’s given as well, so that there was always this sense of like, you know, am I am I seeing you know, which you know, which truth are you going to are you going to believe, you know, because I think one of our goals, too, was obviously we wanted to attract audience members who were interested in this subject matter, but we also wanted to, you know, we were also very cognizant that, like, half the population, you know, you know, doesn’t

03:01:44:12 – 03:02:06:25
David O’Leary
think there is much to UFOs. And we wanted to make sure that we we presented an interesting sort of like dilemma where both sides could be like, oh, maybe, maybe it was maybe, maybe the, you know, the Lubbock lights were plovers, you know, or like, or maybe it was temperature over inversions. In episode 2 in 110, you know, at the in the season one finale or things of that nature.

03:02:06:25 – 03:02:19:18
David O’Leary
So, so that there was always this balance because like, yeah, as soon as you just say it’s, it’s real definitively it’s the mystery is gone. The truth is, you know, that the quest is, is is Oak.

03:02:19:21 – 03:02:20:27
Dan LeFebvre
Park part of.

03:02:21:00 – 03:02:21:21
David O’Leary
Blue Book like.

03:02:21:27 – 03:02:35:18
Dan LeFebvre
From from history was to come up with some of those stories, some of, some of the plausible explanations for that. Was it can you give an example, maybe of a plot point in there where you, you did depart from the history that they.

03:02:35:21 – 03:02:36:04
Sean Jablonski
That.

03:02:36:07 – 03:02:41:06
Dan LeFebvre
Maybe the example that Blue Book gave and had to kind of come up with your own?

03:02:41:09 – 03:03:15:18
David O’Leary
Oh, God. I mean, listen, you know, I mean, well, there were certain threads that we, you know, as far as we know, the high necks were never infiltrated by a Russian. A Russian email a Russian spy, as Claude would say, I don’t know. I don’t think that ever happened. But, you know, you know, so certainly we were adding certain narrative drama, but but like, what is well documented was that Russia was very interested in, in not only their own UFO programs at that time, but in what America knew about UFOs at that time because they were like, is this top secret, you know, technology, things of that nature, that, you know, that

03:03:15:18 – 03:03:45:13
David O’Leary
we have yet to release and we, we always were excited by the idea that, like, oh, the Hynek family could be a soft target into sort of an intelligence gathering mission from Russia about that. And then things obviously complicated from there because even our, even our sort of Russian spy character is sort of become sort of morally torn about like which side she should be fighting for and all those, all those wonderful things, I think from a case standpoint, though, I think we always tried to reverse engineer what became the official explanation.

03:03:45:13 – 03:04:12:27
David O’Leary
You know, like the plovers, like temperature inversions with the stuff over DC. Even, you know, Hopkinsville where, you know, as crazy as it scene with the there was like a monkey that was dressed up in the space outfit that that’s all based on fact. Actually, they’re one of the got one of the guys in the family worked at a circus, and there was, like, monkey trained monkeys there, like, because in a way that’s almost too absurd to make up.

03:04:12:29 – 03:04:46:12
David O’Leary
I would be embarrassed to like bits that in a room. So I think we always started with something, you know, that, you know, we’d kind of reverse engineer it. And again, to go back to your very first question and try to sort of honor what was the initial, you know, truth of the actual story. Yeah. One of the joys of the, of the show for me was like, when we would air, I would like live tweet the show, and I would beforehand kind of put together the list of all the things, all the cool little, like, you know, truth nuggets that we had, we had sort of pulled from here and there and

03:04:46:12 – 03:05:06:28
David O’Leary
maybe turn them in a bit of a blender to tell a cohesive, compelling drama. But so that but really to invite audience audiences to go like, research this, like, hey, this really was a real thing, or like you wanted this case based off this event, so that there was always these sort of like footings that audiences could had and like, oh, okay, great.

03:05:06:28 – 03:05:26:11
David O’Leary
And then they can go off, they can go off and see the case. And then even at the end of every episode, if you watched it on history, there was like a 2 or 3 minute documentary piece about the case that inspired this week’s episode of Bluebook, and that was sort of conceived from the very beginning. Once we landed at history, to draw a line in the sand so that we could clearly be like, listen, we’re not trying to deceive.

03:05:26:18 – 03:05:46:03
David O’Leary
We want to like, tell a cool story, compelling, compelling narrative. But here’s here and then here’s the route of of where this comes from. Now go off and like, you know, do your own research and come to your own your own conclusions. So it was nice to have that other sort of piece that would help plant it in historical context.

03:05:46:06 – 03:05:48:18
Dan LeFebvre
I like what you said, John, about the, the monkeys.

03:05:48:18 – 03:05:50:20
Sean Jablonski
Being that I mean.

03:05:50:22 – 03:06:03:02
Dan LeFebvre
There and that’s one of the things I love about the, the show that I do, being able to dig into some of that, because knowing that that’s based on fact, like that’s, that’s something that somebody could easily look at and be like, oh, what?

03:06:03:07 – 03:06:05:21
David O’Leary
I mean, that’s that’s kind of happened, but well, yeah.

03:06:05:21 – 03:06:07:23
Dan LeFebvre
Actually some of the crazy stuff does.

03:06:07:23 – 03:06:09:03
Sean Jablonski
Happen.

03:06:09:05 – 03:06:34:25
David O’Leary
Yeah. It’s it’s a yeah. And it’s, it’s you know, I think Chernobyl is probably what like the gold standard in terms of trying to sort of tell like an accurate story based on a historical event. And, you know, we again, had to sort of decide early on that we, you know, there’s there is, there’s got to be a slightly different version of the show and, and also just we knew too, that, you know, and David had put it in there.

03:06:34:25 – 03:06:39:09
David O’Leary
There’s so much family. And so going on to that, we could also sort of lean on that.

03:06:39:11 – 03:06:54:28
Dan LeFebvre
Well, you mentioned a couple of them earlier, some of the, stories that you got to cover, like the Lubbock Lights and Operation Paperclip, area 51 even got, high involvement in Close Encounters of the Third Kind. What was your favorite episode in the series?

03:06:55:00 – 03:07:17:14
David O’Leary
Oh, gosh. I mean, I would say, I would say I’m torn between three. I think both Sean and I share deep, deep love of the Close Encounters upset, which in many ways, in some ways feels almost like the culmination of the show. Like you could almost like, like end it there because like, we end we, you know, we end obviously in a very different way.

03:07:17:16 – 03:07:36:13
David O’Leary
But and I was thinking about that actually this morning. Why that that episode registers so much, I think, for all of us. I mean, some of it was just, you know, the magic of it all coming together, intercutting between two different time periods. But I think one of the things for us, too, is it was one of the one of the clearest departures in tone for us.

03:07:36:13 – 03:08:03:09
David O’Leary
We were a rather conspiratorial, dark, noir tone, which is like, I love that tone, like most of the things I write are like sci fi mysteries, supernatural mysteries, like, I, I can’t get enough of that. But this episode, the case is ultimately has this wonderful sort of positive spin, you know what I mean? Like, it’s so much captures a sense of wonder instead of a sense of of fear.

03:08:03:11 – 03:08:20:22
David O’Leary
It sort of it stands out because that’s the other side of this thing. Like, we don’t want to forget that it’s not just about conspiracies and being deceived and and public denial and disinformation, misinformation, all that stuff. But it is about the wonder of what’s out there. And I think that that episode in some ways encapsulated that, that wonder.

03:08:20:24 – 03:08:41:19
David O’Leary
And then and then the other two episodes, I’m really, I really love I love our like, big finale episode. So like, like one town into town for me also stand out as just like cinematic, like movies. You know what I mean? Like, I think I think Sean and I are both really proud of how those episodes turned out as well.

03:08:41:21 – 03:08:59:05
David O’Leary
But I don’t know. I mean, like, I could go on like, we did two quote unquote bottle episodes. I think Sean wrote them both, which are also some of my favorites. That was abduction in season one. And, I forget where we oh, what lies beneath in in season two, in season two, sort of the revelation of who Susie really is and all that kind of stuff.

03:08:59:07 – 03:09:19:00
David O’Leary
And that’s like, that’s we put all our characters just in a room, essentially, and had to tell it, tell an amazing story there. So, I don’t know, it’s hard. I yeah, I love all of them. I definitely the bottle episodes are fun because it’s so character based and, you know, the challenge of we’re a show that has to go out and look at UFOs.

03:09:19:00 – 03:09:47:22
David O’Leary
How do you actually how do you keep people in the house in order to tell the same show? So yeah, those bottle episodes are great close encounters. Yeah, I mean that and and do exactly what David said. The finale’s just there’s so much fun and and and happened you know, that’s the other thing everyone yet like the the Close Encounters based on George Adamski, who was a guy who was just like that character, who we sort of had in the show, which was so much fun.

03:09:47:22 – 03:10:11:02
David O’Leary
And then, you know, Paul Hynek makes a little cameo as a camera operator in the Close Encounters scene, which was so nice as a way, you know, to sort of in homage to his father. And he was saying just even being on that set was meant so much to him. And and yeah, as David put it perfectly with it, it took a break from the usual town and showed the wonder of it, which was wonderful.

03:10:11:04 – 03:10:31:18
David O’Leary
Paul Heinrich’s cameo in an episode about his father serving as a like. There are so many meta parallels because Paul was a consultant for us on the show, and then we did an episode about his father being a consultant for Steven Spielberg, who’s like, Zemeckis’s close friend. It was just like that for me. I’m just like, oh, wow.

03:10:31:18 – 03:10:42:06
David O’Leary
Like, that’s just like some incredible, incredible miracle that that that we were, like, somehow able to, like, pay that, pay that all off and then do it, do its injustice.

03:10:42:09 – 03:10:45:01
Dan LeFebvre
And I’ll just fits perfectly together. Just.

03:10:45:03 – 03:10:45:13
Sean Jablonski
Yeah.

03:10:45:14 – 03:10:46:15
Dan LeFebvre
Almost right itself there. Yeah.

03:10:46:15 – 03:10:47:28
Sean Jablonski
Wow. Okay.

03:10:48:00 – 03:11:10:03
Dan LeFebvre
Well, if there is one UFO related incident and pretty much everyone is heard of, it is the Roswell incident, and that’s the case. You started season two with with, two episodes covering it. Did you feel it? Because that is so popular. Roswell is so popular that it was more difficult to cover than some of the others on the show, like you had to be more accurate to the story.

03:11:10:03 – 03:11:16:09
David O’Leary
And in a way, it was it was hard to do because Bluebook didn’t investigate Roswell.

03:11:16:11 – 03:11:16:26
Sean Jablonski
Yeah.

03:11:16:28 – 03:11:57:12
David O’Leary
That was our biggest challenge at first. You know, was having to go back and you go, well, how can we tell Roswell when it happened, you know, five years before the book was even born? And so we kind of had to have a Roswell 2.0, but you had to take all the facts from the original, and sort of make it feel current, you know, and so that probably more ironically, more than any other episode had the most kind of, I guess, would you say fiction to it because they never investigated it going back and sort of interviewing those witnesses well, after the fact and then sort of making it feel current.

03:11:57:15 – 03:12:18:15
David O’Leary
You know, it was it was intimidating. But, you know, because we’re such research fans and loved the story so much, we knew right away it was a two parter just because there’s so much information in there and, you know, you’ve added with it’s opening season two, you want to be, you know, a big sort of, you know, a way to sort of come back in which, you know, interesting story.

03:12:18:15 – 03:12:39:04
David O’Leary
We, you know, wasn’t our initial impulse to put Roswell as a season opener and that, you know, gradually true, you know, breaking of story and then input from the network, we got to, a place where it was like, nope, we’re doing Roswell to open season two, which was ultimately the smartest choice. Yeah, as a way to sort of bring the show back.

03:12:39:07 – 03:12:55:07
David O’Leary
Yeah. That’s right. At one point and for a while, actually, we would we really wanted to do more island as, as as our, as our opener. I remember that which we eventually, you know, but it all sort of works out like it sort of reveals itself as you break it. Like we found a much better way to do it.

03:12:55:07 – 03:13:19:14
David O’Leary
You know, ultimately down the line, you know, I think that episode was like, I it’s six or something like that. I think 2 or 5. Yeah. Or 205. Yeah. And, but yeah, I think for us, I cracking the case on Roswell just became about, well, you know, we, we done a bunch of research on Roswell and it just became, well, okay, if a town was really, you know, silenced.

03:13:19:16 – 03:13:42:02
David O’Leary
Yeah. And traumatized in this way, what would be the symptoms of that six years later? And once we saw a real. Well, what if somebody was trying to get the truth out of Roswell and staged, like, you know, like this crazy event in the desert where this where, where a saucer allegedly went down and sort of, you know, held the held the US government kind of hostage, like, I’m going to unleash the truth.

03:13:42:04 – 03:14:06:01
David O’Leary
It created a way for like, our guys to go back in there and then, and then the other thing we sort of had the revelation of it was like, oh, what a great character. A journey we can take with no on his character. And as a general returning to a scene of a crime, something that he’s never fully been able to square, and also delineating, you know, for those who watched the episode between Valentine and.

03:14:06:07 – 03:14:07:29
Rob Kristoffersen

03:14:08:02 – 03:14:32:03
David O’Leary
Oh, I’m like, yeah, thank you. Hardy. In terms of like, who knows what and who might really be in control because for season one we play, you know, we we need to sort of be, you know, the face of it a little bit more. But but then we sort of flipped the script a little bit like, oh, perhaps Valentine, who’s more the veteran, more of the senior is actually sort of hiding some things from, from, from Harding as well.

03:14:32:03 – 03:14:43:14
David O’Leary
So is, you know, it just it gradually reveals itself to us as we find, as we found a way to do it, you know, of like, oh, here’s a way to do it that really is interesting.

03:14:43:16 – 03:14:49:23
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. It was really interesting that, I because I think a lot of people, when they think of the government cover up, it’s like.

03:14:49:25 – 03:14:51:07
David O’Leary
The government and they’re.

03:14:51:07 – 03:14:52:10
Sean Jablonski
All in it.

03:14:52:16 – 03:14:58:21
Dan LeFebvre
In it together. And as I was watching it, yeah, I definitely got the sense that even these two generals, they don’t even.

03:14:58:25 – 03:15:02:06
Sean Jablonski
They don’t know everything that the other one knows.

03:15:02:09 – 03:15:08:07
Dan LeFebvre
And so you start to get that sense in there as well. Just really, really, really well done to put that together.

03:15:08:10 – 03:15:32:29
David O’Leary
And so what’s not you know, the general that wound up going into Roswell from outside was Twining, who Harding is based on and was credited a lot with, you know, some of those strong arm tactics that were used in and the idea of when Brazel gets brought onto the base, you know, the idea of somebody who had been in charge of terrorizing an entire town.

03:15:32:29 – 03:15:58:07
David O’Leary
And there’s, again, I’d encourage anybody who has even an inkling of curiosity to go to look at it. There are plenty of firsthand accounts of people who were there. And then you know, are you going to choose to believe somebody saying, I was there? My life was threatened by a military official, and I was told if I spoke, I would be killed and go, okay, there’s dozens and dozens and dozens of those witnesses who came forward and said the exact same thing.

03:15:58:07 – 03:16:22:15
David O’Leary
So you have to ask yourself, am I going to choose to believe they’re all crazy? You know, they’re all making this up for the sake of, you know, a story? You know, it’s fascinating. And also with, you know, Valentine, who was based on Hoyt Vandenberg, you know, ultimately, he went on to be part of the Atomic Energy Commission, which was like an ultra super secret, you know, in charge of our nuclear program.

03:16:22:15 – 03:16:39:13
David O’Leary
And I think he was that did he become head of CIA or was brought into the CIA or something? So it again, it felt like we were fortunate enough to find this truth in the history and really try to bring it out in the in the storytelling. Yeah.

03:16:39:19 – 03:16:57:16
Dan LeFebvre
There is a petition going now to bring the show back for a third season. I’ll make sure to add a link to it in the show notes. If anybody wants to sign it. But let’s say that petition is successful and you’re able to make a third season of Project Blue Book. Have you thought about some other stories that you might like to cover that you didn’t get to in the first two?

03:16:57:18 – 03:17:00:04
Sean Jablonski
David, go.

03:17:00:07 – 03:17:28:17
David O’Leary
Okay, only a little bit right here. Well, some of the fans been murdered, but other listeners may not. We actually had a third season writers room that, ended where we basically broke, all of season three. So for us, it’s been particularly hard, I think, to, you know, and then and then basically Covid hit and I mean, literally like the last day of our writers room was like the day like kind of the world world shut down like it was lockdown.

03:17:28:19 – 03:17:50:20
David O’Leary
In 20th March or 2020, mid-March of 2020. So, yes, I mean, we have, you know, listen, we, we, we would love nothing more than to then to continue that journey. So especially because for us it we for in a weird way, the show lives in our heads. Like a season at the end of season, like we kind of knew where we were going.

03:17:50:23 – 03:18:19:00
David O’Leary
We we mapped out a whole past, and that makes it hard to because I know how, excited we, Sean and I are about that season. I mean, that season, that season is like some of our favorite stuff. And like, we the guys to do it like, so. And I mean, we can tease it a little bit too, because it’s, you know, it felt that, it felt like such a natural progression again.

03:18:19:00 – 03:18:48:02
David O’Leary
Also history on our side. There was the great UFO wave of 1953 54 in Europe. Yeah. And so we decided to go, you know, as you know, to sort of make it bigger and, you know, it a lot of it takes place over in Europe. Because that’s where, that’s that’s where the sightings were. It was it went from like, you know, a handful of sightings in Europe to thousands a day.

03:18:48:02 – 03:19:07:24
David O’Leary
All of a sudden it was like off the charts. And when you dig into the history of Europe and the history of some of those cases, again, it for us it felt like this is what the show is. It is about the phenomenon. And it’s not just an American phenomenon, it’s a worldwide phenomenon. And so we we got to explore some seminal cases.

03:19:07:24 – 03:19:31:02
David O’Leary
And, it really I mean, like anything, it felt like we were hitting our stride and we we broke every single episode. So. Yeah, but there’s some wonderful. Yeah, England, France, Italy, Italy, Russia. Roswell. Yeah. Like it was just like we. Yeah, we it was, it was, you know, heartbreaking. Yeah. It was heartbreaking. Utterly heartbreaking. I don’t really.

03:19:31:02 – 03:19:31:25
Sean Jablonski
Heartbreaking.

03:19:31:27 – 03:19:55:19
Dan LeFebvre
Well I hope hopefully we’ll get to see some of that in the future. But, I wanted to ask you about, Doctor Heinrichs perspective on UFOs, because in the real Project Blue Book, he kind of started pretty skeptical. And then his position changed as he was investigating these. So as you were researching and writing and putting together this, did your opinions change at all?

03:19:55:19 – 03:20:01:22
Dan LeFebvre
I know you were both big into UFOs beforehand, but did it change at all as you were creating the show?

03:20:01:24 – 03:20:41:03
David O’Leary
What changed for me was doing research on Hynek and realizing how smart he was in terms of hypothesizing the multitude of answers that might exist. Right? Even in like, his book, you know, I think, like, you know, the UFO experience or, you know, his numerous books, he, he would hypothesize, you know, like, especially with some of these cases that delve into, like, you know, Close Encounters of the Third kind or, you know, seeing, seeing actual occupants or entities or whatever you want to call them, you know, I mean, he he Hynek entertained every theory under the sun from the day, you know, interdimensional in some way, like the planet is also theirs.

03:20:41:03 – 03:21:21:09
David O’Leary
Somehow today, our interplanetary spacecraft do. They are us in the future today are like I. I remember like you spoke a little bit about sort of the robotic nature of that of the how these creatures are described. Like, are we dealing with artificial extraterrestrial artificial intelligence, right. Like, on and on. And I think that that, that, I mean, I, you know, you know, just I always love that the notion that, like, maybe, you know, the answers could be as complicated, complicated as the questions we could be dealing with a multitude of, sort of phenomena happening simultaneously.

03:21:21:09 – 03:21:43:17
David O’Leary
We’re just not we’re just not sure, you know, what what sort of the answers are. But, that was the shift for me. Was like, you know, don’t hang your hat on. Really? Any one theory, because it could be. It could be something else. It could appear one way, but actually, I actually did something else. I always love that, you know, I would say of anything to that.

03:21:43:19 – 03:22:04:29
David O’Leary
To that end, there’s like it only expanded. I mean, I was already having had knowledge of it sort of, you know, believed in the phenomenon. And, you know, I, I couldn’t profess to have the answers, but had certainly done the research. But if anything, it just expanded it expanded the scope of what was possible, like, especially with interdimensional beings.

03:22:04:29 – 03:22:33:25
David O’Leary
AI from alien civilizations. Are they even here? You know, old that stuff. The biggest thing for me that I found doing this was the, sort of how the sightings ticked up right after an around the time of our, you know, us basically getting nuclear capabilities. There are so many incidents of UFOs in and around nuclear missile sites turning the missiles on and off.

03:22:33:27 – 03:22:57:20
David O’Leary
And, you know, in and around Los Alamos at once. We got the bomb. This. That’s when everything shut up. That’s really when that’s what really when Roswell happened. And that is one of the most fascinating stories to me, because to me, it’s the clearest evidence yet. And this is coming from high ranking military officials who’ve testified in front of Congress about this.

03:22:57:20 – 03:23:21:20
David O’Leary
Again, this this stuff is all available to go. You can watch it, you know, and decide for yourself. Yeah, yeah, decide for yourself if like the, you know, the high ranking colonel who said I was in the missile bunker when the this, you know, object came and basically cut the power then turned it back on said our missiles to launch and we couldn’t do anything, then took it away.

03:23:21:22 – 03:23:48:14
David O’Leary
Yeah. And you can decide if this guy just decided to make it up and ruined his entire career. But to me, that’s the clearest evidence. It’s one thing for a civilian to see something dark across the sky and go, I saw something I can’t explain. It’s another thing for military personnel who are overseeing our nuclear weapons to have these objects come in and around and and basically control them, because to me, that’s communication, right?

03:23:48:14 – 03:24:06:18
David O’Leary
I know what that is like. It’s it’s them saying, we can do this to you. And now it’s up to us to go. Are they benevolent? Are they they or are they saying they can destroy us or they trying to start a war? Like what is happening? It’s not just like, oh, I saw something. I don’t understand it.

03:24:06:18 – 03:24:30:02
David O’Leary
They’re communicating in a way and have the ability to affect our world. That phenomenon blew my mind. And if you go down that rabbit hole and look at all the instances not just in America, but in Russia at the same time, it’s it’s fascinating. It’s really fascinating. And it goes all the way back, all the way back to the beginning of this, of this phenomena.

03:24:30:05 – 03:24:53:04
David O’Leary
I mean, Ed repels in his book, talks about it, how they would expect to see UFO sightings over like, like, atomic detonations in the South Pacific on top secret military, sort of weapons testing programs in the 40s and then late 40s and the 50. So it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s a fascinating, sort of aspects of this.

03:24:53:12 – 03:25:02:16
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. That’s a really interesting point to bring up, because if you put it kind of in a historical context, World War Two had just happened. So there was a lot of.

03:25:02:19 – 03:25:03:18
Sean Jablonski
Explosions.

03:25:03:21 – 03:25:06:09
Dan LeFebvre
Going on, you know, and that didn’t.

03:25:06:09 – 03:25:08:07
David O’Leary
Bring anything out.

03:25:08:10 – 03:25:14:23
Dan LeFebvre
But it but the nuclear side of it does it just interesting that World War Two didn’t seem to really.

03:25:14:25 – 03:25:40:18
David O’Leary
You had the Foo Fighters in World War Two really that, that, that that, that was a very a sort of a big thing back then. All the pilots describing what these objects were. And we touched on that, I think a little bit in the first season. And historically, it’s not like UFOs began right then they you Columbus talked about UFOs, you know, so but there was a clear, like explosion of sightings, you know.

03:25:40:21 – 03:26:05:14
David O’Leary
Well, maybe pun intended. Right around the time we got the bomb, that is when the wave just took off. And it’s also where the military, you know, had really, you know, gotten involved. And again, you know, the really it began with, you know, why am I forgetting his name? The sort of, you know, first thing, flying saucers in Oregon.

03:26:05:16 – 03:26:06:16
Sean Jablonski
Yeah.

03:26:06:18 – 03:26:28:06
David O’Leary
And the army. Arnold. Yeah. In 1947, which happened literally three weeks before Roswell. And one of the things in Roswell that that, is interesting. They did nuclear tests in and around there, but that was also the Roswell was the home of the final ninth Bomb Squadron, which was the squadron that dropped the Enola Gay was in Roswell.

03:26:28:08 – 03:26:46:06
David O’Leary
That’s what dropped the bomb on, you know, Hiroshima and all those all in and around their the White Sands missile base, the Allen Knoll, I can’t remember the other one, but all those nuclear testing things were around there, and the the amount and saucer sightings were just off the charts.

03:26:46:08 – 03:26:52:09
Dan LeFebvre
Wow. That’s fascinating. I, I guess I never had put it together that the Enola Gay was there in Roswell.

03:26:52:11 – 03:27:13:24
David O’Leary
When people think of Roswell, they always think of it as a kind of a sleepy desert town, kind of random, small thing. It’s got it had huge Roswell Army Air Force airfield had huge, huge sort of, military significance at that time. It was very important. And in that whole area, that was it was a massive testing ground for for top secret weaponry and stuff like that.

03:27:13:24 – 03:27:22:12
David O’Leary
So it’s not a I don’t think it’s at all, you know, for shrines to transport in any way a coincidence that this was a hub of sort of UFO activity at the time?

03:27:22:15 – 03:27:30:25
Dan LeFebvre
Well, I know I asked you about your your favorite episode. It’s hard to pick a favorite, but do you do you have a favorite story from the set as you are creating the show?

03:27:30:27 – 03:27:46:28
David O’Leary
I have to, and I’ll tell I’m really briefly. One is in abduction, which Shawn wrote, but he unfortunately was, for whatever reason, not able to be on set for. But I got, I got to be up for like nine and ten or maybe he, he was up for a little bit, but I don’t think he was up there for this part.

03:27:47:01 – 03:28:07:27
David O’Leary
When the character is recalling his sort of abduction experience, because it was what’s called a bottle episode, we had to do it. We couldn’t rely fully on VFX as we were trying to keep the but the budget down. That’s what a bottle episode is. And our director, Alex Graves, had this brilliant idea of like, he’s supposed to be levitating in a ship, right?

03:28:07:27 – 03:28:31:01
David O’Leary
And like, sort of finds himself in this alien environment. So they really strung up, the actor’s name, I think, is Malcolm. Good, good, win or good will forgive me if I. It’s. Yeah. And they strong him up and they shined all these shimmery lights on on him in the background on a screen and they, they blasted the entire sort of soundstage with, with, with smoke.

03:28:31:04 – 03:28:50:03
David O’Leary
And it was this magical alien kind of like experience come to life. But you could not see in front of you. The camera guys are like, you know, all the crew was so quiet and it was it just it looked incredible. You’re like it felt like you’re watching a VFX shot happen in front of your eyes. You know, it was like a portal open to another dimension.

03:28:50:07 – 03:29:16:12
David O’Leary
If you are looking at what we were actually filming. So that was incredible. And then I, you know, I mean, obviously all the like, fun kind of anecdotal moments with the cast are amazing too. But the other thing was in 110 we blew up a car and that was that was up just like we we all sat around and like literally had popcorn and like blew it up on our wound up in a, in a sort of an outside in an amphitheater, kind of an environment against a green screen.

03:29:16:15 – 03:29:42:21
David O’Leary
And, that was that. It blew up a nice 1950s car to boot. And that was just a fun, a fun, a fun day to see all that happened to. I have a zillion photographs that I’ll just say briefly. I think it was literally day one of episode 101. We showed up on set and it was the, you know, it was, the farm that what played for the farm house in the, in the first episode.

03:29:42:21 – 03:30:08:12
David O’Leary
And it was early morning cold Canada, and there was this fog that had just blanketed the entire area. And with this sun piercing through, it was some of the most dramatic looking landscape I’d ever seen. And it was the arrival of our characters through this fog. You know, up to this farmhouse, I it’s like, I don’t think we could have gotten we couldn’t have wished for anything better.

03:30:08:12 – 03:30:24:13
David O’Leary
And it was day one. So it’s just basically everybody’s connecting, everybody’s, you know, come in with their A-game. And so excited to be there. And it felt like, you know, felt like the gods were smiling on us saying this is the right way to begin. So we talked a.

03:30:24:13 – 03:30:35:16
Dan LeFebvre
Little bit about, potential season three. But in the first two seasons, was there anything that you wanted to add in there but you couldn’t for one reason or another?

03:30:35:19 – 03:31:12:10
David O’Leary
Oh, gosh. Well, we had like whole episode ideas that for one reason or another, we had we had to scrap, you know, I mean, there was all all kinds of like, you know, periods where I mean, there were sort of like UFO cold spots popping up in there in the early 1950s. And like, we thought about doing an episode that sort of explored that idea about sort of like how people how people might sort of use this arrival of this sort of new phenomena into the public consciousness, towards their own sort of self-serving ends and how people could get kind of roped into that to that kind of thing with, you know, gosh,

03:31:12:10 – 03:31:43:05
David O’Leary
I mean, there was all, you know, there’s always things there’s even within episodes, there’s scenes we had to kind of course, or little moments like for what timing purposes? We’re like, we just can’t. We can’t. We got to pick and choose. I’d say to David, you know, you’re his very first, his early draft of the script, you know, and it was always described as, you know, X-Files meets madmen because he had a really wonderful touch with the soap that was in there and is in it again, it was as much about personal life.

03:31:43:05 – 03:32:01:06
David O’Leary
And Joel, who was the kid, there was even a storyline with him. And, you know, it’s through the natural process of any TV show creation, development, you know, where the rubber meets the road. You got to start leaving, pushing things aside in favor of, you know, the engine of the series, which is our two guys in the cases.

03:32:01:06 – 03:32:17:21
David O’Leary
And I think we tried hard to make sure that we, you know, with like Susie and, and, Mimi and all of that to kind of create, you know, another world that we could go into that reflected the Cold War era times. But, I mean, for me, you know, I, I, I loved as much the character stuff as anything.

03:32:17:21 – 03:32:37:02
David O’Leary
And I thought there was certainly more stories to tell with, you know, me, me and Susie, and to have a female perspective as well as a home perspective, and to see what’s really going on, you know, during the Cold War, back home, you know, we tried a little of that with the bomb shelter early on in season one, you know, which was a real thing.

03:32:37:05 – 03:33:03:02
David O’Leary
You know, they would put ads in the newspapers for that stuff and how the kids would feel at school and bomb shelter. Yeah. Buy your own bomb shelter. Reminded me of we. Yeah, we had it. We came up with this whole storyline with Joel as, like, this 1950s boy kind of stand by me as sort of storyline with, like, he had a crush on his, like, neighbor, either on the radio or and then like, but then they and you get to sort of explore the fear of Russia and the Cold War through the lens of children.

03:33:03:04 – 03:33:23:24
David O’Leary
The irony being, of course, that they’re like while they’re like sitting while Joel’s at his neighbor’s, there really is a Russian spy next door having dinner at his house like all this, like wonderful stuff that like a just, you know, you got to pick and choose or a UFO show. So it was like, you got gotta, you know, but it would have been nice to, you know, to do some of those things as well, you know.

03:33:23:25 – 03:33:27:26
Sean Jablonski
Yeah, I forgot about all that.

03:33:27:28 – 03:33:37:25
Dan LeFebvre
Thank you guys so much for coming on to chat about Project Bluebook. I know until there’s a season three, hopefully there’ll be a season three, but until then, can you share a little bit about what you guys are working on?

03:33:37:27 – 03:34:04:27
David O’Leary
Sure. Well, I mean, you know, again, it’s it’s a you know, the world is such a passion for us. David and I are working on something right now that we’re we’re, you know, don’t want to say too much because we’re, in the early stages of, let’s say, negotiations. But, it’s back in the UFO worlds, and, we look forward to bringing, you know, those stories back to television, hopefully in the, in the coming, in the coming year, I should say.

03:34:04:27 – 03:34:23:10
David O’Leary
So, you know, if Blue book. What? Our appetite. We’re excited to serve it. Another meal coming up soon. Yeah. We just wanted to also give, you know, in regards to the safe Blue Book campaign, you know, a huge shout out to Carson who has led that effort. I know we created a website called Save Blue Book Comm, which is amazing.

03:34:23:17 – 03:34:46:08
David O’Leary
And just a wonderful way that he’s collected so many, you know, artifacts from the show and imagery from the show and, and all of our fans who, you know, remind us that the show mattered to them because that that is the most important thing. And that’s why we that’s why we did it. So we’re forever grateful we we never give up hope.

03:34:46:10 – 03:34:56:19
David O’Leary
You just never know. You just never know what’s going to happen. So we have a season three ready when, When? When? As soon as someone’s ready to take it on, so, you know. Thank you to all the fans.

03:34:56:21 – 03:34:59:21
Dan LeFebvre
And thanks again so much for your time, guys.

03:34:59:23 – 03:35:20:10
David O’Leary
Yeah. Thanks. You’re wonderful. Thanks so much, Dan. Thanks, everybody.

03:35:20:12 – 03:35:41:24
Dan LeFebvre
This episode of based On a True Story was produced by me, Dan Lafayette. What did you think of this huge mega episode about the History Channel’s Project Blue Book? Let me know if you’d like to see more of these style longer episodes in the future. We’ve got one more answer for teachers and allies to uncover. And as a quick refresher, here are the two truths and one life from my chat with David and Sean.

03:35:41:27 – 03:36:08:28
Dan LeFebvre
Number one, they wrote a season three of Project Blue Book, telling stories beyond the United States. Number two, the Roswell Incident was made famous by Project Blue Book number three. David and Sean have both had unexplained experiences. Did you figure out which one is a lie? Here’s the answer in the envelope. So let’s open that up. And the lie this time is number two.

03:36:09:03 – 03:36:30:01
Dan LeFebvre
Even though the History Channel’s Project Blue Book starts off season two with the Roswell incident in The True Story, the US government’s Project Blue Book did not investigate the Roswell incident like we see in the TV series, and that’s mostly because of the timeline. The Roswell incident occurred in 1947, but it wasn’t until the 1950s that Project Blue Book itself became a thing.

03:36:30:01 – 03:36:58:27
Dan LeFebvre
Remember, there was Project Sign and Project Grudge, and then really, it wasn’t until the 1970s, I believe it was 1978, that Roswell started to get popular after an interview with ufologist Stanton Friedman, and he interviewed a then retired U.S. Air Force officer named Jesse Marcel. Marcel was one of the soldiers who helped take the debris from the ranch in Roswell, and then he stated that the official explanation that it was a weather balloon was a cover story, and he actually believed it was extraterrestrial.

03:36:58:29 – 03:37:21:02
Dan LeFebvre
From there, the stories and theories started to swirl. So throughout the three episodes today, we played three separate games of two tours in A lie and the lies were one, three, and two respectively. How’d you do? Did you get all three correct? Head on over to based on a True Story podcast.com/discord and let me know how you did.

03:37:21:04 – 03:37:40:09
Dan LeFebvre
As always, you’ll find that link in the show notes with all of the other links for this episode, as well as on the show. Is home on the web over at. Based on a True Story podcast.com/376. Until next time, thanks so much for spending your time with Rob and David and Sean and me today, and I’ll chat with you again really soon.

00:00:01:08 – 00:00:20:12
Dan LeFebvre
Since we’re talking about Donald Rumsfeld in three different movies today, let’s start with a twist on the historical letter grade that we usually do. So this time the grade is not for the entire movie, but just how the movie portrays Rumsfeld. And our first movie today is 2018, vice, which you and I have talked about before. It’s episode 335.

00:00:20:12 – 00:00:31:14
Dan LeFebvre
If anyone wants to queue that up to listen to after this. But in vice, Donald Rumsfeld is played by Steve Carell. What letter grade does vice get for how Rumsfeld is brought to the screen?

00:00:31:16 – 00:00:35:17
William Cooper
I would say a D minus.

00:00:35:20 – 00:00:51:28
William Cooper
I think vice is a good movie and an entertaining movie. I love Steve Carell and Christian Bale’s awesome. In terms of accuracy, I thought it was just really,

00:00:52:00 – 00:00:54:14
Dan LeFebvre
Hard, just not.

00:00:54:15 – 00:01:04:11
William Cooper
Even approaching, one element of accuracy. Just kind of way out there on that particular character.

00:01:04:14 – 00:01:07:14
Dan LeFebvre
Donald Rumsfeld was a real person, and that’s it.

00:01:07:16 – 00:01:22:06
William Cooper
It’s about right. Yeah. No, it was, again, good movie, great actors. The whole crew involved in that movie. You know, very talented people. Accuracy wise, it was not very good.

00:01:22:08 – 00:01:35:12
Dan LeFebvre
Well, after vice, we’ll chat a little bit about Rumsfeld in 2008, w about George W Bush and that movie. Donald Rumsfeld is played by Scott Glenn. What letter grade does he get for his portrayal of Rumsfeld?

00:01:35:14 – 00:01:37:18
William Cooper
C minus.

00:01:37:20 – 00:01:38:24
Dan LeFebvre
Okay, a little better.

00:01:38:27 – 00:02:10:18
William Cooper
A little bit better. A little bit more. At least not whole cloth in that one. I felt like, but still really not at the aim there was not again, I didn’t feel like the aim or the ultimate product was about accuracy. I think it was more about entertainment. And it in some ways was really the both movies were about the focal point, Cheney advised.

00:02:10:18 – 00:02:21:29
William Cooper
And and Bush and W so it’s understandable that maybe Rumsfeld was used to add some flourish as opposed to be accurate.

00:02:22:01 – 00:02:46:25
Dan LeFebvre
Well, I’m really curious about the next one, because finally, we’re going to wrap up our discussion today with 2013, The Unknown Known. And that’s actually documentary interviewing Donald Rumsfeld himself. So there’s not an actor portraying him. But for that one, let’s shift back to the overall letter grade for how accurate the documentary is, because I know we all like to think that documentaries are entirely accurate, but I think we’ve all seen documentaries that can stretch the truth a little bit.

00:02:46:27 – 00:02:57:21
Dan LeFebvre
The example I like to give is Ancient Aliens, that some claim to be a documentary, but that’s a topic for another day. So, what does the unknown known get for its historical letter grade?

00:02:57:24 – 00:03:24:08
William Cooper
I’d say a minus, maybe even an a I I’m a huge fan of our old Morris. The predecessor documentary that he did about Robert McNamara is one of the most powerful films of any, any genre, in my opinion, is unbelievably powerful, movie. And I felt like the Rumsfeld movie was a follow on sequel to that.

00:03:24:08 – 00:03:49:04
William Cooper
In a way, I thought it was great. I thought it was well done. I will say documentaries can be extremely misleading. So I the higher grade is not simply because it’s a documentary. I actually thought it was a really good production and not misleading and not unfair. And in fundamental ways. And of course, you got a lot of raw material that was stripped from the historical record.

00:03:49:06 – 00:04:09:16
Dan LeFebvre
Well, I’m glad you pointed that out, because, yeah, sometimes people think, movie is entertainment, documentary is truth. And I know that’s what it’s supposed to be, but that’s not always what especially is talking about something political to where, you know, politicians tend to stretch the truth sometimes too.

00:04:09:18 – 00:04:32:22
William Cooper
Absolutely. Documentaries can even be worse because people are can be lulled into the so false confidence that something is true because it’s the documentary and then through omission, it can tell a totally different story, or amplifying the things that maybe weren’t as big of a deal. But I thought the the Rumsfeld documentary was really good, and I learned a lot.

00:04:32:22 – 00:04:48:29
William Cooper
I’d already knew a lot about Rumsfeld by that point in time is something somebody I’ve always been really fascinated by and interested in, and I actually learned a fair amount and was surprised about it. And, it was fascinating.

00:04:49:01 – 00:05:09:19
Dan LeFebvre
Now it’s good. Well, with the letter grades done, let’s start digging into a little more detail starting with 2018. Vice. That movie tells a little bit about Donald Rumsfeld before his political career. For example, it mentions that he was the former captain of the Princeton wrestling team. He was an elite Navy jet pilot before becoming a congressman.

00:05:09:21 – 00:05:21:26
Dan LeFebvre
But as you mentioned before, vice is more about Dick Cheney. So we don’t get a lot about Rumsfeld himself. So can you fill in some more history that we don’t see in the movie about who Donald Rumsfeld was before he was in politics?

00:05:21:28 – 00:05:51:18
William Cooper
Yeah, I think the movie takes some snapshots of Rumsfeld that are accurate. He was a wrestler, and that was a big part of his upbringing. And a lot of people think that his background as a wrestler sort of embodies his approach to politics and business being very aggressive and, confrontational. Even so, they got that right. He was, entered politics in his 20s, so there’s not a ton before politics entered politics in his 20s.

00:05:51:18 – 00:06:15:21
William Cooper
He was 29 when he was elected to Congress for the first time in district, just outside of Chicago, was in Congress for a number of years, worked for Nixon for a number of years. Was prudent. It’s it’s it’s a question about whether it was luck or prudence or a mix of the two. But he was in Nixon’s administration and in kind of a lower tier post.

00:06:15:23 – 00:06:45:29
William Cooper
And then right before Watergate exploded, he left to be the NATO ambassador in Brussels. So what everything was going for of the floor came out from underneath the Nixon administration. Rumsfeld had just gotten to Brussels and and was focused on other things. And his reputation, I think, was, preserved in some ways. There’s no evidence he was involved in the Watergate scandal or that he was in the machinations with Nixon and others.

00:06:46:01 – 00:07:09:01
William Cooper
But I think for anybody who was actually there on the ground in the administration, it was a tough time, and Rumsfeld was able to get out of it. He came back when Ford took over because Ford was a big fan of Rumsfeld. They were good friends from their time in Congress. And then shortly after Rumsfeld arrived to help Ford, he brought Cheney and who he’d met during the Nixon administration as one of his deputies.

00:07:09:09 – 00:07:30:29
William Cooper
So that’s how that all worked together. Then Nixon became, excuse me. Rumsfeld was, Ford’s chief of staff. Cheney was his deputy. And then Rumsfeld went and became secretary of defense for the first time, and Cheney was elevated to be chief of staff before it. And that’s how the two of them really got started.

00:07:31:01 – 00:07:39:22
Dan LeFebvre
That’s the kind of thing that I mean, the timing of that is very coincidental, but sometimes coincidences actually do happen too.

00:07:39:22 – 00:08:05:08
William Cooper
So yeah, they did, and I think, Rumsfeld was pretty astute. I mean, my view of Rumsfeld is a mixed picture of positives and negatives. The novel really tries to paint that full picture of somebody who’s not just, oh, good or evil, but a mixture of things. And one of Rumsfeld’s strengths, politically at least, he’s had a good nose for this.

00:08:05:08 – 00:08:27:25
William Cooper
Earlier on in his career. The good news for controversy and when to avoid it. As he got older and came back into politics, some might argue he ran to the controversies. But at least early on in his career, he really tried to avoid them and had a pretty good instinct for it. And that that was the the prime example of that getting out of Washington at the right time.

00:08:27:27 – 00:08:48:26
Dan LeFebvre
Well, if we go back to the movie after Rumsfeld is elected to Congress, the movie’s dialog suggests that Rumsfeld was a little different than other congressmen. And there’s a line of dialog from the movie I want to quote here. It says, quote, most congressmen use their power like an ax best and brightest. Rumsfeld, on the other hand, use his like a master of the butterfly knife.

00:08:49:02 – 00:08:58:21
Dan LeFebvre
And like any master, if you got in his way, he would cut you. Does vice do a good job explaining how Rumsfeld wielded his political power?

00:08:58:23 – 00:09:23:13
William Cooper
I think it’s really simplistic. Again, entertaining, good movie, but very simplistic. And it exaggerated. I don’t think that there were a lot of people who disagreed with Rumsfeld, but I don’t think he, you know, in the Ford administration, in Congress and in the 60s and 70s, I don’t think he was stabbing people in the back, left and right.

00:09:23:13 – 00:09:53:11
William Cooper
One of his chief rivals politically during that time was Henry Kissinger, especially with Ford. Rumsfeld and Kissinger were two really strong voices, and they had some disagreements. Rumsfeld was much stronger on the Cold War, wanted to take a much harder stance against Russia than Kissinger did. Kissinger’s philosophy was more, strategic co-existence with Russia, where Rumsfeld really wanted to be more confrontational.

00:09:53:13 – 00:10:19:15
William Cooper
And they, after they left government, ended up being very good friends. Rumsfeld writes in his biography that he and Kissinger had been very close for quite some time and, and really good friends. So there were rivalries and there were certainly a lot of political maneuvering going on, like you would expect from a politician. But I don’t think he was stabbing people in the back or doing, you know, really, underhanded sort of deceitful thing.

00:10:19:16 – 00:10:22:14
William Cooper
I think that was more of an exaggeration.

00:10:22:16 – 00:10:44:06
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Yeah. I mean, that makes it politicians will disagree. That’s kind of part of their job. But, you know, the stabbing in the back part, that’s mentioned in the movie or it doesn’t say specifically stabbing in the back, but it gives that impression. And so yeah, that’s I’m glad you clarified that though, because that was definitely the impression I got was basically my way or the highway.

00:10:44:09 – 00:11:06:10
William Cooper
Well, it certainly intellectually was could be like that. He could be my way of the highway in the sense a very strong views and wasn’t prone to compromise intellectually with what he wanted. He’s very deferential to the president, very deferential to the chain of command. So if the president gave him an order, he would follow it.

00:11:06:12 – 00:11:32:27
William Cooper
And he I think he would do so in a straightforward way. But he was very opinionated and very confident in his views and very, very and one of his biggest flaws of them all was not listening to the critics, not listening to other people. And I think that was one of the reasons he made such a big mistake with the Iraq War, was not listening to other, other opinions.

00:11:33:00 – 00:11:58:20
William Cooper
So in some sense he was very strong minded and he was my way or the highway, but I don’t think he was doing things that were, you know, extreme. I don’t think he was he was, you know, blackmailing his opponents or lying to the president or committing crimes to get things done. So I think there was some exaggeration in the movie, even though he was a very strong personality.

00:11:58:23 – 00:12:26:03
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Well, you mentioned friends and throughout the entirety of vice, it’s not Kissinger, but it’s pretty clear that Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney have a very close working relationship. It’s Rumsfeld who seems to give Cheney his big break in politics, working under him during the Nixon presidency. Then later in the movie, when Cheney becomes vice president, the impression I got was that it was Cheney who convinced President Bush to appoint Rumsfeld as the secretary of defense.

00:12:26:05 – 00:12:31:09
Dan LeFebvre
How much of that really happened? And can you unravel the working relationship that Cheney and Rumsfeld had?

00:12:31:11 – 00:12:56:16
William Cooper
Yeah, that’s pretty accurate and broad strokes. They Rumsfeld and Cheney, were always very close. The, agreed on a lot of things. There were some differences between them. Dick Cheney was a little bit more conservative, the Rumsfeld a little bit more hawkish in certain ways and foreign policy. But in general, they got along very well, really close allies.

00:12:56:19 – 00:13:25:19
William Cooper
And absolutely true that Cheney played a big part in Rumsfeld getting the job as secretary of defense under George W Bush. And it was interesting because Rumsfeld was a political rival of George W Bush, his father. So during the Ford administration, Rumsfeld and Herbert Walker Bush were rivals, didn’t get along well. Rumsfeld didn’t respect Bush’s intellect. Bush thought rummy was kind of, his nicknames.

00:13:25:19 – 00:13:55:23
William Cooper
Rummy. That’s what everybody calls him, throughout his career. So I sometimes do, too. But but Bush thought that that Rumsfeld was, you know, always jockeying for Ford’s attention in ways that, you know, weren’t really fair. Not again, not deeply mysterious or anything, but not fair. So they were real rivals. And Cheney convinced Bush to hire Rumsfeld as the right person for the job as secretary of defense, even though they had that history.

00:13:55:25 – 00:13:59:28
William Cooper
And even though Bush’s father wasn’t a big fan of Rumsfeld.

00:14:00:00 – 00:14:11:22
Dan LeFebvre
Was did the younger Bush not really have much of a, a beef with Rumsfeld then? They were not opponents necessarily, I guess. Then I was just his father, right?

00:14:11:24 – 00:14:27:04
William Cooper
Correct. Correct. So younger Bush and Rumsfeld never had any issues, didn’t know each other well prior to Rumsfeld joining the administration. But the younger Bush was certainly aware that Rumsfeld and his father had this rivalry.

00:14:27:07 – 00:14:35:29
Dan LeFebvre
Okay, okay. Before we move on to the next movie, is there anything about Donald Rumsfeld from the movie vice that we didn’t get a chance to talk about that you would like to mention?

00:14:36:01 – 00:14:57:19
William Cooper
I think I think he did a good job teeing it up. And, you know, I’ll just reiterate it. I thought the performance was great. And it made sense within the context of the film on the discrete question of accuracy, which is not the main question for movies all the time. I thought it was a low grade, but I did like the movie.

00:14:57:21 – 00:15:29:17
Dan LeFebvre
Okay, well, you know, for entertainment, it is entertainment. It’s not documentary. Right? Well, shifting gears to a different movie, we’re going to 2008, which is a biopic about George W Bush, and there’s a scene in that movie I wanted to ask you about with Dick Cheney, who was Bush’s VP at the time. And while Bush is having lunch, Cheney brings something for Bush to sign that will allow the US to use, as the movie puts it, interrogation techniques against unlawful enemy combatants with maximal effective persuasion.

00:15:29:20 – 00:15:54:22
Dan LeFebvre
Cheney goes on to say, it’s not torture, but it includes authorization for U.S. citizens if they’re aiding and abetting terrorist organizations. Now, we don’t see Rumsfeld in that part of the movie, but the impression that I got from the movie is that Cheney was the one behind some controversial things. And since we already talked about Cheney and Rumsfeld having a very close relationship, there’s kind of an implied involvement for Rumsfeld as well in the movie.

00:15:54:22 – 00:16:04:06
Dan LeFebvre
Two do we know how much influence Cheney or even Rumsfeld had over Bush’s policies in general?

00:16:04:08 – 00:16:09:10
William Cooper
And for policies, do you mean that interrogation or the policies in general?

00:16:09:12 – 00:16:27:26
Dan LeFebvre
Well, the scene was about the interrogation, I guess specifically, but I guess I would assume that because that that was something that’s would be seen as more controversial, like if he wasn’t already influencing policies and such, I guess I would just assume that they wouldn’t start with something very controversial.

00:16:27:28 – 00:16:57:28
William Cooper
That’s a good, good point. Yeah, I think that’s right. And Cheney and Rumsfeld were very influential with Bush, Cheney in particular. So Rumsfeld was over at the Pentagon running the Defense Department, and Cheney was much closer to Bush, much, much closer confidant to Bush. Although Bush and Rumsfeld had a good, strong relationship, it deteriorated some at the end.

00:16:57:28 – 00:17:31:09
William Cooper
But it was a good, strong relationship for many years. And they held great sway over Bush. But it wasn’t the simple caricature of the movies. I think Bush really respected Cheney and really respected Rumsfeld, and he gave their opinions a lot of weight. Now, it wasn’t static either. I think it changed over time. So the key initiative for both Cheney and Rumsfeld, their biggest initiative was the Iraq war.

00:17:31:11 – 00:18:11:06
William Cooper
And they really drove I think both of them maybe Cheney the most. But but Rumsfeld, certainly, as well, really drove the push for regime change in Iraq and played a big role in convincing Bush to do it. Others in the administration were more ambivalent. Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice and others weren’t as hawkish as Cheney and Rumsfeld, but over time, in large part because the Iraq War didn’t go well and didn’t go the way Cheney and Rumsfeld actually suggested it would, I think Bush lost trust in them.

00:18:11:09 – 00:18:36:10
William Cooper
Cheney gave a speech. It’s it’s a scene in the novel. He gave a speech in Tennessee where he says verbatim in quotes, Saddam Hussein definitely has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt that was in the lead up to the war. And he said that to the whole world, the whole world was watching, he said. There is no doubt.

00:18:36:12 – 00:19:00:03
William Cooper
And he certainly was saying things like that to the president. And Rumsfeld was saying things like that, the president as well. And when it turns out Saddam Hussein doesn’t have weapons of mass destruction, the erosion of trust is inevitable. And I think it really did happen. And by the time Bush was in the latter part of his second term, Rumsfeld had left the Pentagon.

00:19:00:03 – 00:19:25:11
William Cooper
He resigned, and Bush and Cheney’s relationship had frayed dramatically. So there’s a huge difference between year one of the Bush administration, where Cheney and Rumsfeld hold great sway, and year eight of the administration, where Rumsfeld’s God Cheney holds little sway. And there was a, you know, sort of a gradual decrease. It wasn’t linear, but a gradual decrease over time.

00:19:25:14 – 00:19:29:25
William Cooper
In between those, polar ends of the continuum.

00:19:29:28 – 00:19:53:21
Dan LeFebvre
Would some of that be what you were talking about before, where, intellectually at least having, you know, my way or the highway type approach to it where, well, but you also mentioned that Rumsfeld was very big on, on following command. So, that like the chain of command. So would that my way or the highway mentality still work for the president?

00:19:53:23 – 00:20:27:14
William Cooper
So. So Rumsfeld, very forceful interviews. If Colin Powell, his co-equal in the administration as secretary of state in the first term, disagreed with him, Rumsfeld would charge ahead and give little weight to the disagreement. He was very, very confident in his own opinion and his own opinion about what was true, his own opinion about what to do. But when the president of the United States would say, here’s what we’re going to do, here’s my decision.

00:20:27:17 – 00:20:54:18
William Cooper
Even if it went against what Rumsfeld wanted, Rumsfeld would follow that order. He respected the chain of command. And when he was secretary of defense, the only person above him was the president. That’s who you reported to. So the whole world, it was my way or the highway with the exception of the president. And certainly Rumsfeld had people at the Department of Defense and Cheney and others that he got along with well and respected their opinion.

00:20:54:18 – 00:21:09:14
William Cooper
So it wasn’t like he was disregarding every opinion that anyone ever gave. But in general, he was very, very convinced he was right. And the people that disagreed with them were wrong. But he would respect the chain of command. At the same time.

00:21:09:17 – 00:21:32:01
Dan LeFebvre
Well, you might have already answered my next question, but in the movie, if we’re to believe that movie’s version of history, Cheney and Rumsfeld were basically the reason why Bush went to war with Iraq over the WMDs of weapons of mass destruction, then at the end of the movie, we find out that they what they thought were WMDs turned out to be photos of watering holes for cattle.

00:21:32:03 – 00:21:44:13
Dan LeFebvre
So can you fill in a little more historical context around that situation? And then I’m assuming, based on what you said before, the movie is correct, to suggest that Rumsfeld and Cheney were incorrect about the WMDs in Iraq.

00:21:44:15 – 00:22:11:06
William Cooper
Yeah. Cheney, Rumsfeld were driving the driving force behind the invasion. I think they were the two leading figures behind it. And, one of the things that they talked about was that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. I don’t think Rumsfeld ever said it as categorically as Cheney or Cheney did say it unequivocally, even though there was disagreement in the intelligence community at the time, he still said it.

00:22:11:13 – 00:22:40:11
William Cooper
He still said there’s no doubt Saddam has weapons of mass destruction. So they were very vocal and they were leading the push for regime change. They also talked about other issues as well. Wasn’t just WMD, so they talked about the threat that Saddam posed in other ways to the United States and its allies. They also talked about the need to transform Iraq into a democracy, which in retrospect, was much more difficult than they assumed.

00:22:40:14 – 00:22:59:03
William Cooper
But that was one of the things they talked about. It. If I could turn into democracy, that could change the region, that could be a model for other countries in the region to move towards democracy as well. So it was a mixture of of things. But WMD were were very high on the list and that resonated with the American people.

00:22:59:03 – 00:23:26:19
William Cooper
So it was something that they focused on in terms of trying to get public opinion in support of regime change. Over time, we learned, that Saddam Hussein never had weapons of mass destruction at the time. Now, you can always say, well, just because we didn’t find them doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. But there were obviously a lot of eyeballs in Iraq after the invasion for many, many years.

00:23:26:19 – 00:24:02:19
William Cooper
Nobody ever saw them. I think it’s safe to assume they didn’t have weapons of mass destruction, and they were wrong. And that’s a really striking thing to have happen again. Rumsfeld was a mix of positives and negatives, pluses and minuses. It was a bit of a smart man. He was very dedicated to his country. I think his intentions were in the right place and a lot of what he did, but it’s a huge mistake to go out to the public, to the world, to the president and say, we need to get rid of Saddam Hussein because of these weapons of mass destruction.

00:24:02:21 – 00:24:30:02
William Cooper
And for that to be wrong. So W embellished it a little bit, made it more of a Hollywood movie, you know, exaggerated way of unfolding, as you would expect in a movie. But it’s, it’s it’s a good, fair, important criticism because they said there were weapons of mass destruction. We went to war, which is the biggest decision a sovereign nation can make.

00:24:30:04 – 00:24:32:26
William Cooper
And it wasn’t true.

00:24:32:29 – 00:24:55:15
Dan LeFebvre
Looking back on it through a historical lens, do we know why they were so positive? And, you know, with that saying, without a doubt that he has them when they don’t know for sure, because obviously they didn’t, so they couldn’t have known for sure that they did. So why would they say that? I mean, was it just to try to go to war to.

00:24:55:22 – 00:25:03:16
Dan LeFebvre
I think I remember living through those times, and there was a lot of people who were like, oh, we just want their oil or something like that.

00:25:03:18 – 00:25:29:07
William Cooper
I don’t think it was that simplistic. I’ve never seen evidence that they did it just to put money in their pockets, and that that’s an incredible accusation. But we’re going to go destroy a country and have a huge number of casualties, just so that my stock in an oil company goes up when I’m already very rich. So, yeah, I don’t think Cheney and Rose were motivated by enriching themselves.

00:25:29:10 – 00:25:59:14
William Cooper
I think their motivations were complicated. They weren’t identical, either. And I think what you have really are two people that had very strong views about foreign policy, extraordinarily high confidence in themselves. Right? Cheney. Rob. So they’re very confident in their own judgment. And they wanted what they wanted. And Rumsfeld in particular, they wanted to show that the United States was strong and a force in the world and that there were consequences.

00:25:59:16 – 00:26:24:29
William Cooper
I think they thought that during the Clinton administration, there were a lot of lines drawn in the sand, and then Saddam and other people would cross those lines, but there’d be no consequence. And I think for for Rumsfeld, he thought it was really important to make a statement that if you’re a dictator, if you are doing things like Saddam’s doing shooting at our planes, tried to assassinate George H.W. Bush, he invaded Kuwait.

00:26:25:01 – 00:26:38:04
William Cooper
If you’re a dictator doing all of these things, there’s going to be consequences. And and I think Rumsfeld wanted to make that statement, thought it was really important to make that statement.

00:26:38:06 – 00:26:54:13
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Okay. Yeah. That makes that makes sense. I guess it’s just interesting that, you know, you he’s still. Well, I guess you said it was Cheney that was still. So, saying it publicly like that is well, I guess, as you also said, a mistake.

00:26:54:16 – 00:27:21:00
William Cooper
A big mistake, a huge mistake. I think both men, Cheney and Rumsfeld, got a lot of unfair criticism throughout their tenure for a variety of things. A lot of decisions they made were very difficult decisions, and there was a lot at stake. But they deserved the onslaught of criticism and the historical condemnation. They deserve it because they said they had weapons of mass destruction.

00:27:21:02 – 00:27:50:01
William Cooper
That was a huge basis for why we went to war and it wasn’t true. And that is a very, very major offense for a politician entrusted with the security of our country. Frankly, the United States military is entrusted with the security of the whole world and a lot of lives. If you’re going to go to war, the ultimate step that you can take of it wasn’t just a bombing campaign, wasn’t just discrete attacks with cruise missiles coming in.

00:27:50:01 – 00:28:13:29
William Cooper
It was a war, and they did it in large part on the basis of something that wasn’t true. And they exaggerated the position at the time. So they exaggerated what they actually thought. There was doubt. Cheney knew there was doubt. There was doubt exaggerated. And then they turned out to be wrong. That’s a big deal. Not something you can sweep under the rug.

00:28:14:02 – 00:28:30:24
William Cooper
Even if you’re a trying to be fair minded and recognizing their strengths and weaknesses. Lots of criticism. And w the movie highlights that in a way that has some flourish and resonance with people. And I think helps people understand that.

00:28:30:27 – 00:28:36:02
Dan LeFebvre
Did it actually turn out to be watering holes for cattle, like the movie shows, or is that just a Hollywood embellishment? That was.

00:28:36:02 – 00:29:03:21
William Cooper
Hollywood. Okay, there was a lot of there was a so had to to be a little more granular about it there. There was a ton of evidence that Saddam had used weapons of mass destruction. There’s a ton of evidence that he would do so again, there was a ton of evidence of infrastructure, of weapons, of mass destruction. And it was fair to say Saddam Hussein could get weapons of mass destruction.

00:29:03:21 – 00:29:31:11
William Cooper
He could use them again. They just didn’t qualify it. And so when they went in, they we there were all sorts of infrastructure and things related to weapons were discovered. It wasn’t like Saddam only had rifles and and a few tanks. I mean, he did have a lot of infrastructure in place. It just wasn’t operational. And that’s a fine distinction in a way.

00:29:31:14 – 00:29:42:06
William Cooper
But at the end of the day, to say there’s no doubt you had weapons of mass destruction, was, a big mistake.

00:29:42:09 – 00:29:46:18
Dan LeFebvre
Well, is there anything else about the movie that you wanted to point out before we move on to the next one?

00:29:46:20 – 00:30:03:01
William Cooper
No, just another one where I think that the, a lot of respect for for that movie, I think is really entertaining. And I think does make some interesting points. But ultimately, you know, if you’re trying to really understand what happened, that’s not the place to look.

00:30:03:03 – 00:30:23:20
Dan LeFebvre
Well, our final movie to talk about today is the documentary called The Unknown Known. And at the beginning of that movie, Donald Rumsfeld himself mentions dictating some 20,000 memos in just the last six years at the Pentagon, and how there must have been millions of them over the course of his career. Then, of course, it goes on to use those memos as the basis of the documentary.

00:30:23:22 – 00:30:42:27
Dan LeFebvre
And in the documentary, when the filmmaker asks Rumsfeld if he knew that they would produce a vast archive from his memos, Rumsfeld laughs and says never crossed his mind. And that even he didn’t know what he was going to do next. So I have two questions about this. First, is it normal for a politician to have that many memos that are archived somewhere, presumably for the public to see?

00:30:42:27 – 00:30:54:06
Dan LeFebvre
Maybe. I don’t I don’t know the doc. We didn’t really point that out. But then and then also, do you get the impression that Rumsfeld was basically making it up as he went along? He kind of implied there.

00:30:54:09 – 00:31:27:05
William Cooper
So Rumsfeld, for on the first question, Rumsfeld wrote, these snow, they’re called snowflakes because they fell all over the federal government. And he it was before email, if there was email and if there was email at the time, Rumsfeld, would have been one of those people that sends, you know, hundreds and hundreds of that. But what he it highlights strength and and again, I think it’s important if you want to be accurate to there’s a podcast about how accurate is a movie compared to reality.

00:31:27:05 – 00:31:50:07
William Cooper
So I think accuracy is important if you want to be accurate about Rumsfeld, you need to recognize his strengths. And he was incredibly smart, man. Part of the big conundrum for me with Rumsfeld is how could somebody so smart be so wrong about Iraq and not just the weapons of mass destruction, but what he thought he could do with the country turning it into a democracy?

00:31:50:10 – 00:32:22:09
William Cooper
That was he was clearly wrong about that. But he was a very smart man, and he was extraordinarily hard worker. I mean, if you look at the things people say about Rumsfeld, he, you know, almost everybody that talks about him says he’s the hardest worker I’ve ever seen. One of his friends that he grew up with, guy named Janetta, who, has talked and in giving interviews about him, he said this is the most productive human being that’s maybe ever existed.

00:32:22:09 – 00:32:46:14
William Cooper
Like, he will he will wake up in the morning, and by the time he goes to bed, he will have done things that ten people couldn’t do. So he was just unbelievably, you know, feverish. And his work is productivity. And he didn’t just work all the time. He was really smart about it. He went when he left the Ford administration the first time he was secretary of defense, he took over JDS Searle.

00:32:46:16 – 00:33:16:09
William Cooper
He was the CEO of a pharmaceutical company. They made NutraSweet. He took it from this fledgling crappy old legacy corporation to a total juggernaut. And the stock went up like tenfold in just a few years. So he did prodigious with his work ethic, its ability to get things done, and the snowflakes, which were very, very accurate and very real, I think reflect that just the way he was able to get so much done.

00:33:16:12 – 00:33:37:10
William Cooper
The problem with being that productive is if you’re if the ships pointed in the wrong direction, it’s a big problem. And the Iraq Initiative, you put a lot of work into that. And we would have been better served if he had had other, focus of his energies during that time in terms of the archive. We put them on the web.

00:33:37:15 – 00:34:09:24
William Cooper
So rumsfeld.com, they’re all up there. It’s a great, great resource. You get all his memo or at least a huge percentage of his memos. I don’t know if it’s all of them, plus a lot of memos from other sources. So it’s all first hand. So if you want to actually dig into the the core of what was actually happening at that time and what people were saying, a lot of source material there that’s really, really valuable and interesting and is snowflakes were a big part of that.

00:34:09:27 – 00:34:18:29
Dan LeFebvre
So is more, work related memos, not necessarily like a journal or keeping a diary type, you know, just recordings and things like that. It was all for work purposes.

00:34:19:01 – 00:34:38:27
William Cooper
It’s memos, you know, from Donald Rumsfeld to Colin Powell, from Donald Rumsfeld to Dick Cheney, that sort of thing. And it’s actually and it’s the actual workings of government. Like, yeah, you can do orders from there. You can give your positions. So it’s it’s not it’s not a summary of something else. A lot of the time, a lot of time.

00:34:38:27 – 00:34:47:04
William Cooper
It’s the actual the memo is the events. And it’s, it’s really good history.

00:34:47:06 – 00:34:52:27
Dan LeFebvre
It sounds like with his work ethic, his work memos basically are his diary, his journal.

00:34:52:29 – 00:35:15:09
William Cooper
Yeah, that’s a good point. Yes. When you work 16 hours a day or more, you’re. That is your. Yes. You’re. And, it’s funny. That’s a good way to think about it. Yeah. A lot of really busy people there. Their email inbox and outbox is their diary. But yeah, I think it’s a good point.

00:35:15:11 – 00:35:31:03
Dan LeFebvre
What about that? The line that he had in the documentary where he’s like, he didn’t even know what he was going to do next, was were there did you ever get the impression, I guess, that he was making things up as he went? Or. I mean, you said he was very smart. So I would assume that he was have a little forethought.

00:35:31:05 – 00:35:54:14
William Cooper
He had a lot of forethought. He knew what he was doing. And he was aware of of his legacy in this future. I mean, by the time he was in the Bush administration, he was in his late 60s. He was born in 1933. So he was in his late 60s when it started. And and into his 70s as he served as secretary of defense for the second time.

00:35:54:17 – 00:36:16:16
William Cooper
So he wasn’t positioning himself to go into the private sector or get this job or that job or or, you know, run for president someday. He did run for president unsuccessfully in the 80s. It was very brief. But so he wasn’t positioning himself in that sense. He wasn’t thinking about, his next move from a professional standpoint.

00:36:16:16 – 00:36:41:10
William Cooper
When he stopped serving as secretary of defense, he did what I’m sure he assumed he would do. He wrote books. He participated in conferences and think tanks, speeches and things like that. But, but yeah, he was a smart man who read history his whole life and was aware that in his way, he was making history and there was a part of him.

00:36:41:10 – 00:36:45:06
William Cooper
I’m sure that was quite cognizant of that.

00:36:45:09 – 00:37:17:11
Dan LeFebvre
The whole concept of the movie’s title, The Unknown, known as Rumsfeld, explains, it is basically the things that you think you know, but it turns out you did not. In the documentary, he uses the example of the attack on Pearl Harbor and says that happened because of a failure of imagination, that the attack could even happen. Then, of course, as we all know from history, it turns out that Rumsfeld himself must have failed to imagine what could have happened because the world was shaken on September 11th, 2001, and Rumsfeld case shaken quite literally because he was at the Pentagon when one of the hijacked planes crashed into it.

00:37:17:13 – 00:37:47:02
Dan LeFebvre
But then the reaction to that attack was the US going to war with Iraq because of supposed connections to Al-Qaeda, even though in the documentary, Rumsfeld himself says he doesn’t think the American people thought Saddam Hussein was connected to Al-Qaeda. But then the documentary shows a clip, a news clip from February 4th, 2003, when Rumsfeld was secretary of defense and a reporter asks him to respond to Saddam Hussein, saying Iraq does not have weapons of mass destruction, and they also have no relationship with Al-Qaeda.

00:37:47:04 – 00:38:11:11
Dan LeFebvre
And in that news clip, Rumsfeld’s response was, And Abraham Lincoln was short. Then he goes on to call Saddam Hussein the local liar, which to me is pretty obviously suggesting that he believes Iraq does have WMDs, as we’ve talked about, as well as a relationship with Al-Qaeda, even though in the documentary he claims to deny it. Do you think Rumsfeld was purposely manipulating his words so the U.S. could have a reason to go to war with Iraq?

00:38:11:11 – 00:38:14:19
Dan LeFebvre
Or did I misinterpret what he’s trying to say there?

00:38:14:21 – 00:38:20:04
William Cooper
I think what happened with Rumsfeld’s public statements.

00:38:20:06 – 00:38:49:24
William Cooper
My sense and in a. Read and followed this really closely, is that Rumsfeld really wanted to go to war with Iraq. He really wanted regime change. He wanted Saddam out of there, not for oil money, not for bloodlust, but because he thought it was good for the world to get rid of Saddam Hussein and try to make the middle East more of a democratic region.

00:38:49:26 – 00:39:20:10
William Cooper
So he was very convinced that that was the right thing to do, and his public statements would be exaggerated or embellished to help that happen. And one narrative that resonated with people, because when you’re going to war, and especially in democracy, you want public support. You don’t want 90% of the people against the war, and then you go to war that it’s really important to have public support, to have political support.

00:39:20:10 – 00:39:45:27
William Cooper
And if Congress behind you and our constituents behind you. So they were they were doing a marketing campaign for a year or two before the Iraq War. And one of the things Rumsfeld would do with respect to this, and also respect to connections, al-Qaida is exaggerate, embellish, wink, wink, nod, nod.

00:39:45:29 – 00:40:12:22
William Cooper
So he wouldn’t outright lie in some grand way. Yeah, we know for sure that Saddam Hussein is in the process of selling WMD to Al-Qaeda. He wouldn’t say that, but he would. He would move the discussion in that general direction. And there were some connections between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda, but they were tenuous. They weren’t. They didn’t suggest that they were cahoots together.

00:40:12:25 – 00:40:39:12
William Cooper
But there were some connections between them. And then I also think Rumsfeld genuinely felt like Saddam Hussein. If he does get weapons of mass destruction very easily, if not likely, would sell them to terrorists. Right? He wants to cause problems to the West, to the United States. So the prospect of him selling them to terrorists, whether it’s al-Qaida or whether it’s another terrorist organization, is a very real threat.

00:40:39:14 – 00:40:46:26
William Cooper
So his views would be in his statements, would be consistent with that overriding impulse.

00:40:46:28 – 00:41:09:15
Dan LeFebvre
Was it almost like a means to an end, like if he has it in his mind that he has to get rid of Saddam Hussein? Almost. Not that you can say anything, you know, because obviously we talked about you not doing anything illegal or anything like that, but also trying to persuade people and trying to get people to follow along, then, yeah, maybe we can stretch the truth a little bit here and there.

00:41:09:15 – 00:41:14:23
Dan LeFebvre
Or do you know things like. Yeah, and Abraham Lincoln was short, you know, that kind of that kind of quick.

00:41:14:25 – 00:41:45:15
William Cooper
It’s a good way to put it. Then he wasn’t outright lying in a obvious way. He’s a smart guy. So he knew that if he lied, you know, in a really obvious way, he would get called out on it. Unlike our politics of today, outright lies back then were, harder to get away with. But but he wanted he knew what he wanted to do, and he was trying to say things that would achieve that goal.

00:41:45:18 – 00:42:09:16
William Cooper
And in that sense, he would exaggerate things and embellish things, but not outright lying. Or, you know, going forward in some fraudulent way with evidence, things of that nature. You didn’t he didn’t do that. He definitely was trying to be a good PR spokesman for what he wanted to get done.

00:42:09:18 – 00:42:26:18
Dan LeFebvre
You mentioned, him thinking that, you know, Saddam Hussein might sell WMDs to terrorists was part of his motivation. Then, part of his reason for wanting to get rid of Saddam Hussein, basically to not have another nine over 11.

00:42:26:21 – 00:43:05:21
William Cooper
Yes, I think that was part of it. I think he legitimately feared I think 9/11 hit him very hard. When you’re the secretary of defense and the largest attack in him in the country’s history on our on our shores occurs. You’re in charge. The Pentagon gets hit. He was in the Pentagon at the time. I think it had a very dramatic impact on him that a lot of civilians, particularly people looking back on it, decades later, it’s now over two decades later, don’t feel the same urgency and fear that he felt.

00:43:05:23 – 00:43:28:02
William Cooper
So I think it really did hit him very hard. And one of his concerns, I think it was a concern about Saddam Hussein, but I think it was also a concern about the region in general. Iran was a a bad actor with respect to the United States at that time. There were terrorists, al and other terrorists as well.

00:43:28:05 – 00:43:56:24
William Cooper
I think he had a just an overriding concern about terrorism and not wanting to have another 911. I think that drove him very strongly. And when that fed into the overall basis for for wanting to get rid of Saddam because he he saw a real scenario where Saddam could and Saddam was a terrible dictator. He had tortured his people, invaded his neighbors.

00:43:56:27 – 00:44:27:21
William Cooper
He was extremely dangerous person. And so Rumsfeld felt like he was a threat. How far fetched is it to think that that would actually happen if we had not gotten in and taken Saddam out? Would he have gotten WMD and gotten him to terrorist hands? It it’s very hard to assess that, but I think that that threat was a one of several factors that drove Rumsfeld to want regime change in Iraq.

00:44:27:24 – 00:44:53:15
Dan LeFebvre
Something else that Rumsfeld says in the documentary that kind of sounded like a contradiction to me is when he says the U.S. doesn’t assassinate the leaders of other countries. But then he immediately goes on to talk about Dore Farms, where the U.S. tried to kill Saddam Hussein. And that sounded like a contradiction, because on one hand, Rumsfeld says the U.S. doesn’t assassinate leaders, and then he instead calls the Dora Farms incident an act of war, implying it’s not assassinating leader if it’s war.

00:44:53:17 – 00:45:16:07
Dan LeFebvre
But then, just a minute or so later in the documentary, he says that the U.S. wanted to kill Saddam Hussein to avoid going to war with Iraq. So maybe it’s just me, but it sounds like Rumsfeld is trying not to use a specific word because the U.S. doesn’t assassinate world leaders. But apparently the U.S. does launch a war against one person that just happens to be the leader of the country, so they can avoid going to war with the entire country.

00:45:16:09 – 00:45:22:05
Dan LeFebvre
What really happened with the Dora Farms incident and what, if any, involvement did Rumsfeld have?

00:45:22:07 – 00:45:49:27
William Cooper
I actually don’t know the detailed history there. I do know that Rumsfeld was pretty darn good about not getting caught saying things, but occasionally he would, and I thought that I thought the documentary on that point. Yeah. It’s hard to reconcile those various statements. And so, yeah, I think it was just it wasn’t being consistent was the takeaway that I got.

00:45:49:29 – 00:46:16:12
Dan LeFebvre
All the movies that we talked about today are mostly about other people, about President Bush with Scott Glenn playing Rumsfeld, vice about Vice President Cheney, with Steve Carell playing Rumsfeld. Then, of course, there’s the documentary, too, but there hasn’t really been a biopic about Donald Rumsfeld himself yet. So let’s say you’re put in charge of directing it. Who would you cast as Donald Rumsfeld in your movie, and what period of Rumsfeld life would you want to focus on?

00:46:16:15 – 00:46:41:12
William Cooper
That’s a great question. Well, you’ve asked the author of a biographical fiction novel about himself. If it becomes a movie, I’ll be very happy based on my book. Although that’s that’s hard. But I haven’t thought about that. Who would play him? That’s a really good question. I’m. I’m not skillful at casting Josh Brolin. Seems like maybe he could play.

00:46:41:13 – 00:46:53:00
William Cooper
And Steve Carell did a good job. I would want him to take a different tact, but. But he did a good job, I don’t know, what do you think, Dan? Do you have any any. Oh, wow.

00:46:53:01 – 00:47:00:23
Dan LeFebvre
Who, throwing it back. I mean, that’s I didn’t even think about answering my own question there.

00:47:00:26 – 00:47:02:06
William Cooper
It’s a tough question.

00:47:02:08 – 00:47:12:21
Dan LeFebvre
Josh Brolin would be good. I mean, he was, but when he was George W Bush and W, so it would be interesting to see him playing a different character in that same time period.

00:47:12:24 – 00:47:34:14
William Cooper
Yeah, yeah, I’m trying to picture somebody playing Rumsfeld. You have to be on the shorter side. Rumsfeld was five seven. He’d have to be able to slick his hair back. Really? Well, because Rumsfeld did that, I feel like Brolin might be the best, but yeah, you’re right, he was. He was Bush. But maybe that would be a good thing.

00:47:34:14 – 00:47:37:18
William Cooper
Maybe that would keep the keep the same going.

00:47:37:21 – 00:47:43:14
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. There you go. And then you can have Christian Bale play, George W Bush in the movie. It’s a side character.

00:47:43:16 – 00:47:46:15
William Cooper
Hey.

00:47:46:17 – 00:47:48:21
William Cooper
I’m in. I’m watching that.

00:47:48:23 – 00:47:53:28
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. Me too. We do have you back on to see what changes they made from from what actually happened.

00:47:54:01 – 00:47:56:07
William Cooper
Yeah.

00:47:56:10 – 00:48:13:20
Dan LeFebvre
Well, this isn’t a political show. Obviously. We are talking about a political figure from recent history. So no doubt what Rumsfeld did in his career impacts our country today. What’s 1 or 2 of the biggest things that you think Donald Rumsfeld’s political career had on today?

00:48:13:23 – 00:48:48:15
William Cooper
Well, the Iraq war was very consequential. It essentially because it near universal agreement that it was a big mistake and did not go well. But the premise of the war with respect to WMD, but also the idea that we could go in there and transform Iraq into a democracy in retrospect, people recognize was was a real mistake and a real misunderstanding of what’s capable, what we’re capable of in the Middle East.

00:48:48:18 – 00:49:31:09
William Cooper
And so I think there’s been a profound bipartisan recognition from the Iraq War that the United States, despite all of our power, needs to be more restrained in foreign affairs. And it’s one thing to target militias with bombs. It’s one thing to go after nuclear facilities in certain countries and things of that nature. But the idea of a full scale mobilization around a smaller country that can’t really defend itself, like Iraq, I think is essentially off the table at this point.

00:49:31:12 – 00:49:55:04
William Cooper
It’s just not something that the United States has a stomach for. And I think that’s a response to Iraq. And we learned that lesson. It’s really hard. You’re going to going into the Middle East and bombing a country to smithereens, and then building up a democracy from the rubble is just not something that we can do. Even if even if it sounds like a noble goal.

00:49:55:06 – 00:50:30:25
William Cooper
So I think that’s really his legacy politically is just being a part of of that initiative, how it went and how it’s reshaped our politics. And then his personal legacy to me is one, that’s very fascinating. I touched on it earlier, and I really one of the main things I try to bring out about him in the novel is he’s a really complicated guy who was, on the one hand, really, really smart.

00:50:30:27 – 00:50:55:04
William Cooper
And he was famous for recognizing you mentioned it earlier in the documentary, Dan talking about tears of knowledge, right, and understanding the limits of our own knowledge. There’s no knowns. There’s known unknowns, there’s unknown unknowns. And he articulated that framework in a in a really smart way. And he was right about about the way he laid that out.

00:50:55:04 – 00:51:19:20
William Cooper
So he’s sort of this character, this person, this historical figure who on the one hand is famous for articulating a framework of understanding human knowledge and our limits. And then, on the other hand, the Iraq Initiative was one of the most notorious violations of the very framework he set in place because he went beyond what he knew. He thought Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.

00:51:19:23 – 00:51:40:18
William Cooper
He thought it was a no no. He was wrong. He didn’t have them. He thought that we could transform Iraq. And he couldn’t. We we couldn’t as a country. And so I think his legacy is going to be, you know, that complication of how does somebody so smart make such a big mistake?

00:51:40:21 – 00:52:03:18
Dan LeFebvre
To paraphrase or to borrow I should say, from another movie, with great power comes great responsibility. And, sometimes you know, that’s. Yeah, we learned the lesson, as you said. Well, well, this is a topic we could continue to talk about forever. But thank you so much for coming on to talk about Donald Rumsfeld in the movies. You do have a new novel that you’ve talked about a few times.

00:52:03:18 – 00:52:13:22
Dan LeFebvre
It’s called The Trial of Donald Rumsfeld, and there’s a link to it in the show notes for my listeners to get their own copy right now. But before I let you go, can you give my audience a peek into your new book?

00:52:13:24 – 00:52:49:24
William Cooper
Yeah, it’s, it’s an alternative history. So it’s the trial of Donald Rumsfeld, and it Rumsfeld in the novel, after the Iraq War, through a series of scandal and tragedy, becomes president of the United States. So it’s historical, it’s historical fiction novel and an alternative history. And then as president, really, you get to see Rumsfeld’s full personality and character on display, and he makes some really big mistakes and ends up on trial at the International Criminal Court at the International Criminal Court.

00:52:49:24 – 00:53:07:26
William Cooper
And that’s where the book gets its title, The Trial of Donald Rumsfeld. The actual trials around his activity in the Iraq war. And so if you like historical fiction, legal political thrillers, it’s worth checking out.

00:53:07:28 – 00:53:11:08
Dan LeFebvre
Fantastic. I’ll make sure I add a link to that in the show notes. Thanks again so much for your time.

00:53:11:08 – 00:53:18:29
William Cooper
Well, awesome. Thank you Dan, really appreciate it. Love the podcast. And really, thank you for letting me come on again.

00:04:08:10 – 00:04:26:20
Dan LeFebvre
We have a few movies to talk about today, but before we do that, let’s start by flipping things around a little bit. Normally here on the podcast, we talk about things that filmmakers change from the true story. But I know you’ve been working to get your book called Not a Real Enemy About Your Father urban story told into a movie.

00:04:26:22 – 00:04:43:03
Dan LeFebvre
Of course, we can’t predict the future to know when or if that will happen soon, but let’s hope for the best and say it is turned into a movie. So what’s one key thing that you want to make sure the filmmakers don’t change from the true story in the film adaptation?

00:04:43:06 – 00:05:01:18
Robert Wolf
Well, hopefully all of it, of course. But, that’s the easy answer. My dad’s for escapes or what? For example, my dad was a four time escape artist, and he missed an escape, too. He was fortunate, and he sports enough to go to the wrong train station under communist Hungary. And everybody made that train got arrested, including his, medical school classmate.

00:05:01:18 – 00:05:08:07
Robert Wolf
So all of that. I’d like to be, as accurate as possible as, cinematography. Cinematography.

00:05:08:10 – 00:05:09:02
Dan LeFebvre
Cinematography.

00:05:09:04 – 00:05:29:27
Robert Wolf
Yeah, yeah, as close as possible. Color movie, color in color. Obviously, a lot of the older movies are black and white, like Schindler’s List, which I hope we talk about a little bit more. That movie I just saw the movie and a resonates very, very much so with the story that I’m that we’re telling here. And then his upbringing, you know, it doesn’t have to be a long part of his upbringing.

00:05:30:00 – 00:05:49:23
Robert Wolf
And if I could cast a movie, it’d be Tom Hanks playing my dad and Tom, or that Tom Hanks Tom cruise. Tom Hanks plays one of the nicer, guards in the labor camp, a forced labor camp. A lot of the movie should cover the forced labor camp, the beatings, getting urinated on, getting shot at by Russian planes, all that kind of thing.

00:05:49:23 – 00:06:09:12
Robert Wolf
So there’s a lot of content. And, you know, of course, we wanted as close as possible, but any good producer writer screenplay would, would switch it up a little. I just hope they keep the, you know, as they keep the fidelity as much as possible. I mean obviously you got to make changes to capture an audience and hopefully that would be the case.

00:06:09:16 – 00:06:29:04
Robert Wolf
And you know the other thing is some people say could be a feature film. Some people say a documentary docu drama series. I wouldn’t care as long as they did a good job with it. There’s 40 chapters in our book, so, you could. I don’t think it’d be a 40, 40, show series, but certainly 10 or 15 would be, you know, one season’s worth at least.

00:06:29:04 – 00:06:45:15
Robert Wolf
So it’s always up to the producer, or whoever gets a hold of, the story. The it’s not in a screen stand in a screenplay yet, but, I, I leave that to the I leave that to Hollywood or whatever, discovers whatever we’re doing here. And if they do so it’s a, it’s a wing and a prayer.

00:06:45:15 – 00:07:02:01
Robert Wolf
And I know it’s a such a long shot. It’s easier to get into medical school, which I’m a position. I’m a radiologist, recently retired. It’s easier to get into medical school than to sell a New York Times bestseller. A bigger story and a movie, as we well know, nobody knew Schindler was, you know, 20, 30 years ago and nobody knew who.

00:07:02:01 – 00:07:18:29
Robert Wolf
And Frank was way back in the day. And, the, Life is Beautiful story I never wanted I mean, I never even think about, Italy and the Holocaust until I saw that movie and both of them the second time. Both great movies. And we could talk about those details and how they resonate with what we’re doing.

00:07:19:01 – 00:07:29:01
Robert Wolf
And I’m glad I saw them after I wrote a book regarding the Holocaust and beforehand to what a what a different viewpoint or what a, what a difference that makes.

00:07:29:01 – 00:07:48:26
Dan LeFebvre
Certainly we’re going to we’re going to talk about those for sure. But as we shift into some of the movies that that have been made, there are a lot of movies that are set before and during World War Two. So what I’d love to do is to get your take on some of those and how they compare to your family’s experiences that you talk about in your book.

00:07:48:28 – 00:08:06:05
Dan LeFebvre
And the first movie that I’d like to start with is a classic film, The Sound of Music, and it tells the story of how life changes for the von Trapp family as Nazi Germany annexes Austria in 1938. And as we watch a movie like Sound of Music, it’s possible to see the warning signs when we watch the movie now.

00:08:06:05 – 00:08:26:00
Dan LeFebvre
But of course, anytime we’re watching a movie like that, we’re also looking at it through a historical lens because we already know what’s going to happen from history instead of being there in the moment. And correct me if I’m wrong, but Austria is like less than 100km from where your father grew up in Hungary, so he wasn’t that far from where the annexation unfolded.

00:08:26:03 – 00:08:30:24
Dan LeFebvre
What were things like in that region as Germany annexed Austria?

00:08:30:27 – 00:08:57:20
Robert Wolf
Well, as you know, the fact the rise of fascism almost simultaneously with the Great Depression, the Roaring 20s, were okay in Hungary and throughout the world. We think the war was over. Things were doing well. And meantime, of course, Hitler was it was a building, the military machine that he was, because Germany’s economy was, it was, that’s how they that’s that was their economy was the military, of course, 33 is where fascism was on a rise in 38, 1938.

00:08:57:20 – 00:09:17:28
Robert Wolf
And in Hungary, there were anti-Jewish laws were initiated. So you couldn’t on the radio, you could only go out at certain times. There was, no Jews or dog signs up, of course, Kristallnacht. If, I’m not mistaken, in Germany, Austria was 1938, a very big event. That’s where they started taking force.

00:09:17:28 – 00:09:39:06
Robert Wolf
Laborers, the men, the young men that were wealthy, they started to take them away to forced labor camps and, really didn’t affect Hungary. I mean, the anti-Jewish laws were there. So they were persecuted and shunned, if you will. But the the killings and the, the the the most of it didn’t really, happened in Hungary till 1943, 1944.

00:09:39:09 – 00:10:03:00
Robert Wolf
My dad ended up going to after his first forced labor camp in 1943 and October, and then his parents were taken away to Auschwitz, in 1944. So Poland got hit first, obviously in 1939, Kristallnacht before that, 1938. And then Hungary, a little bit later, what I’m told. And from when I’ve read Hungary had the fastest, the fastest pace of homicide, of genocide of any of them.

00:10:03:00 – 00:10:33:07
Robert Wolf
So, that includes Ukraine and Russia, which they were brutalized and the Polish, 1939 of the refugees went to Hungary. And, the Hungarian government sent the refugees back, unfortunately. And, and it really badly for them. And so this resonates with Poland, with the, with the Schindler idea too, because, a lot of similarities between that and what happened to Hungary, although we’re talking about 1941 versus 1943 and 1944, but it could be the same, the same idea that, you know, a little bit, a little bit different background, different scenario.

00:10:33:07 – 00:10:36:09
Robert Wolf
But, a lot of the common, a lot of common themes.

00:10:36:13 – 00:10:59:15
Dan LeFebvre
Since you mentioned it didn’t really touch Hungary, but it’s touching all these countries around. And I’ve, I’ve never visited Hungary, but I can imagine that the proximity isn’t that far. I mean, there’s borders, you know, it’s technically a different country, but there’s these atrocities that are happening. What was it like for your your father as a child and your your grandparents?

00:10:59:15 – 00:11:04:12
Dan LeFebvre
And when they’re, when they’re seeing, I mean, they had been seeing in the news what’s going on where they.

00:11:04:15 – 00:11:30:29
Robert Wolf
Well, what a great question. Well, you say seeing in the news, we realize that my dad in Hungary and his parents never own a car. They never owned a TV. You bring up a great point. Jews were not allowed to have radios. So. And so they had a radio. He, his dad had enough courage to hide a radio, and they would quietly listen to the BBC, during the uprise of the uprising, with a lot of hope and a lot of prayer that that it end soon and relevant to that.

00:11:31:01 – 00:11:50:08
Robert Wolf
During my dad’s first escape toward. They thought it was the end of Lord, they don’t get much news that the forced labor camp, but they’re in the middle of nowhere, about near the Austria Hungary border. And even though they escaped, the Jews first of four, which some are remarkable, they didn’t know whether to flee to Budapest or stay in Hungary or go to Austria because they didn’t know who’s going to win the war.

00:11:50:11 – 00:12:04:24
Robert Wolf
And, you know, the Nazis won the war and they end up in Austria. They’re dead men. And if there’s a chance in Hungary, not Hungary proper, but the West, turns out it’s not the West. It was Soviet Union. If they win the war, maybe they’re better off in Hungary. It turns out either way, you know, you’re a Jew.

00:12:04:24 – 00:12:28:23
Robert Wolf
You’re screwed. I mean, those men, only 5% of the forced labor survived, in the in that process, including my dad, because he was on the run and hiding at the time. He wasn’t the. The rest of them that survived were treated as prisoners of war. Unfortunately. So 5% of forced labor, they had death marches. And that’s why my my dad and his friend Frank decided to, escape the first time because they thought they were on a death march.

00:12:28:28 – 00:12:59:27
Robert Wolf
And nobody knows about death marches in Europe. They don’t. I mean, historians might know. We all know about Okinawa and, the Pacific, but not a lot of people know. So when they thought you weren’t useful anymore, they killed you. So. And that was true at the Danube, very end of the war. Unlike Schindler, where the guards just go home, I, I’d like to talk about that for a few minutes, too, but, it’s a fantasy that these people, because the, guardians were treated and my mom and dad said that, that, the the Arrow Cross, for example, was like a Hungarian Gestapo and the the White Terror or the Red

00:12:59:27 – 00:13:17:14
Robert Wolf
terror or the the Nazis. The communists, they didn’t treat if you felt like if you’re Jewish, you were still scared of whoever was in charge. And, the Hungarians, the police and the military treated the Jewish people worse than the Nazis themselves. And that’s another thing that resonates with some of these movies, too. Women versus men.

00:13:17:14 – 00:13:26:27
Robert Wolf
Women guards versus Benghazi, pets. A lot of the, you know, a lot of things, humiliation. There are a lot of compare, a lot of things to talk about that are that resonate, big time.

00:13:27:00 – 00:13:48:21
Dan LeFebvre
I love that you mentioned the the radio and the communications there, because that’s something that I think I kind of like what I mentioned before, you know, when we watch a movie, we’re looking at it with a historical lens. So we think of, oh yeah, you can get news from all around there. And in my question I ask, you know, seeing things, but there’s that there has to be that almost added level of fear.

00:13:48:21 – 00:14:06:13
Dan LeFebvre
I would imagine, of not knowing, like, you know, that there’s some bad things going on, but you don’t know the full extent of it. And you then there’s that fear of just not knowing, because then your mind would start to go make things up that, I mean, there were some horrible things, but I, I mean, and it’s something I have a hard time wrap my head around.

00:14:06:14 – 00:14:12:26
Dan LeFebvre
What, like put yourself in the historical context of what that must have been like. It had to have been just terrifying for your for your father.

00:14:12:28 – 00:14:31:13
Robert Wolf
Well, part of the reason. Yeah. No intervention for many, many years, after the war started, it, because the United States had the, for example, had the, had the, the duty to protect its own citizens. So getting involved with the war, it was, was tough communications. I couldn’t say it better. You know, the real cell phones there, no lawyers or no courtrooms.

00:14:31:15 – 00:14:50:23
Robert Wolf
The cops and the. And the military pointing guns. It. Yeah. And fortunately, in this country, we. That’s not happened yet. So there’s one thing. No communication, just the radio, which was illegal. It probably would’ve been shot and killed if they got caught with it. And, and forced labor camps out in the middle of nowhere, even less communication than we had a regular camp in the US growing up, you know?

00:14:50:23 – 00:15:11:04
Robert Wolf
So, word of mouth. So things got a little easier for the men? Not much. But as the their guards got bribed, dental treat, free dental treatments. But, yes, there was a dentist. Obvious, obvious threat to society, killed at Auschwitz and his mom as well. And Deb didn’t find out about two months afterwards. Another miracle, from an eyewitness.

00:15:11:06 – 00:15:29:04
Robert Wolf
And, that’s another point that, the witnesses besides no cell phones, no video, a lot of photographs taken, as we know, the Nazis took many, many photographs. So denying the Holocaust and even communist Hungary just. There’s no way you can’t sell that. But the witness, the witness was the next victim is how it turned out.

00:15:29:04 – 00:15:46:14
Robert Wolf
Like at the Danube walk and death marches. Or as we’ve seen, these mass burial, sites, in Ukraine for example, or in the concentration camps. So the witnesses were literally the next victim. So very, very hard to, to wrap my arms around that. And like you said, very hard to get information again.

00:15:46:20 – 00:16:07:03
Dan LeFebvre
I it’s it’s hard to wrap your head around, but but putting yourself in that context of what that must have been like, I, I love the like in your book when you’re when you’re telling that story, it, it it does a really good job of, of helping to put the, the reader in that place of what that must have been like in there.

00:16:07:07 – 00:16:23:18
Dan LeFebvre
And I’m curious because there are a lot of details of your, your father’s earlier life were those things that he that he told you specifically or were they things that you had to research after the fact? Or how did that part kind of come together for that story as you’re putting all these pieces together?

00:16:23:21 – 00:16:41:21
Robert Wolf
A little bit of both. I can’t imagine the boredom in living in quarters like that packed when with people or even hiding out in your own home, with, you know, yellow stars, yellow armbands, the anxiety, the depression, the fear. I can’t imagine that. And but like you say, you can feel it, like during my dad’s first escape.

00:16:41:21 – 00:17:00:02
Robert Wolf
So, Yeah, my dad. Mom wrote an autobiography. They wrote the his story, from World War one. The of World War one to the end of the Hungarian Revolution. So literally 1916, 19 1718 to the end of the Revolution, 1956. They wrote the story in the 1970s. They they wrote it as though it happened the previous day.

00:17:00:09 – 00:17:17:04
Robert Wolf
Sharp. Chris. And I turned into a biography many, many years later. Growing up, the first half of my life, not so much as I went to college and medical school at a career as a radiologist, family, all of that things. So I didn’t, but I did read the it went from paper and pencil to typewriter to computer to disk.

00:17:17:06 – 00:17:36:04
Robert Wolf
And, when it was a manuscript maybe 30 years ago, I read it once and didn’t think much of it and didn’t remember much except my dad’s first escape. But then when I reread it after my my dad passed and fortunately my mom, a historian friend, handed me the story on the disk, and I turned his autobiography to biography and, just doing that alone.

00:17:36:07 – 00:17:52:25
Robert Wolf
Long story short, I went back to radiology, and that brought me to the book. And, long story short, the stories were so amazing. At least 20 miracles in my dad’s life and hungry for escapes and 20 miracles. I couldn’t leave it on a computer. I couldn’t leave it on a disk. I wanted to share it with the world and,

00:17:52:27 – 00:18:07:18
Robert Wolf
And so I did. And that’s been my that’s been my charge. That’s been my mission the last 6 or 7 years. The book’s been out a little while now, but, that doesn’t stop me from trying to fight antisemitism. So, this is my main thing, the why I’m doing this, and, but, yeah, it’s my own little corner.

00:18:07:18 – 00:18:23:07
Robert Wolf
I need help with that, obviously, but, no, my my mom and dad, they did this as though they knew I would like if you know me, six years ago, and my mom was a Holocaust educator, by the way. My dad, too, but he was an ObGyn, by the way, deliver 10,000 babies in the Detroit area, which is so a form of redemption.

00:18:23:10 – 00:18:41:06
Robert Wolf
That’s the punch line. It doesn’t bring back 6 million and doesn’t beat back 50 million that died in World War two. But at least he brought some life back in jovial and jolly. No PTSD. My mom to they they educated. They were well-rounded people. And the stories like I said, they were crisp and and then they had a lot of friends in the unlike what’s going on in the world now.

00:18:41:06 – 00:19:00:00
Robert Wolf
They had a lot of friends where I grew up in Michigan and throughout the world, from continental Africa, Asia had Indian friends, a muslim, Christian, Jewish, fellow Holocaust survivors. They shared the stories and, and I, I bought into it. I got a little burnout from it. And then, I brought it back to life, at least in my own legacy towards my family.

00:19:00:00 – 00:19:15:00
Robert Wolf
So, I got this app, you know, Superman’s Kryptonite. You just sort of called out to me, you know? It’s summoned me back in me. So. And so I’m doing it, and I. I couldn’t leave this on a disc. I couldn’t leave it on computer. And so that’s why we’re sharing it. But, very well done by my mom and dad, you know.

00:19:15:00 – 00:19:16:09
Robert Wolf
So.

00:19:16:11 – 00:19:43:12
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, well, I’m glad that you are telling that story to to because the world does need to know. And the part that kind of made me think that was when you talking about the the photos and things like the Nazis and the Soviets took. But again, putting yourself in that perspective, a difference from watching a movie today versus versus being there when you like the people that took the photographs to document a lot of that, those wouldn’t be photographs that you’re parents and grandparents would have had access to because they were taken by the people doing a lot of it.

00:19:43:12 – 00:19:53:06
Dan LeFebvre
So it’s not something that they’re going to show. So I was very curious how that story then survives despite trying to be suppressed.

00:19:53:09 – 00:20:12:02
Robert Wolf
Yeah. No, you’re right. I mean, but very, very little, belongings left over, from my dad’s side of the family. My mom saved a lot of photographs, and somehow they were preserved, by my mom. So it was a little less harrowing. My mom was in hiding, you know, with her mom, grandma, uncle, grandfather who’s different, you know, on farms and sometimes in Budapest.

00:20:12:02 – 00:20:35:14
Robert Wolf
So she was able to preserve more things. And as a and she also was into genealogy. And I wish I followed it a little bit more, but I do at least have back to World War one. I can’t go back there beyond that. But no, it’s unimaginable. The fear that my mom must add in hiding to and and the fear my dad must have had every day competing and starving and and doing forced labor for hours from, you know, dawn to dusk.

00:20:35:16 – 00:20:52:07
Robert Wolf
Can’t. I can’t imagine it. So, the reality and also photographs. So the Nazis were they took a lot of photographs. They, they sent them home to their families, let them know what they’re doing. And I have a collection of about 18,000 photos on my phone, and some of them are exceptionally disturbing. The last guy surviving in Vilna.

00:20:52:09 – 00:21:18:00
Robert Wolf
They’re about to kill him, and he’s surrounded by, mostly Nazi, officers. And there’s a gun pointed aside, and he knows he’s next. Reminds a little Schindler to you, but he’s the last survivor. They’re a very disturbing photo. I haven’t shared it because they’ll probably kick me out of X and meta and LinkedIn. If I were, were to, the, you know, the burning synagogue is another one, the smashed in homes, the burning homes, one disturbing one.

00:21:18:05 – 00:21:40:09
Robert Wolf
Well, they’re marching off the Jewish people. And I’m thinking, well, who’s taken a picture of all of this and not helping? You know, and these people lived in fear, of course. Another, disturbing photo. I’ve got some from juror. My dad’s home town. Very, very few, very few available. Another one is Kristallnacht. Whether the business, the glass is all broken up and the lady’s walking by the business smiling, I mean, I.

00:21:40:10 – 00:22:00:02
Robert Wolf
How do you smile when she got what? Are you, Jewish? You’re not smiling. If you’re Christian, you smiling, then, Well, I, I guess I know what party you’re in. You’re in the Nazi party or the Christmas party are very sadistic. Some and Christians were afraid for their lives, too. So the ones that helped the Jewish people or the gays, you know, almost sexual, LGBTQ, disabled, they’re there to be loud.

00:22:00:02 – 00:22:15:03
Robert Wolf
It, including guys like Schindler and Raoul Wallenberg is another one that comes to mind. So a lot going on. I can’t imagine being so remote and, and, secluded from the truth, let alone the news.

00:22:15:06 – 00:22:50:28
Dan LeFebvre
If we shift back to the movies you mentioned life is beautiful, and that’s another movie I want to talk about. That one starts in 1939, just after the annexation of Austria. And it follows the story of how life changes around a Jewish man named Guido before and during the rise of fascism in Italy. And the movie, it starts off with everyday life, but one of the key differences between life is Beautiful and the Sound of Music that we talked about before is that Life Is Beautiful shows how life changes for the main character because he’s an Italian Jewish man, whereas the Von Trapp family in the sound of Music, they’re not so well.

00:22:50:28 – 00:23:12:22
Dan LeFebvre
I, I we see little signs here and there and Sound of Music. We can see the signs in life and beautiful. Life is beautiful. Those signs are clearly the rise of anti-Semitism. They’re going on in Italy now. In particular, there was a scene where Guido pretended to be an inspector of Rome teaching children in school how they are pure Aryan, the superior race.

00:23:12:25 – 00:23:34:00
Dan LeFebvre
He doesn’t have very comical way in the movie, similar to later in the movie, when Guido’s young son just reads a sign in business window that says no Jews or dogs, and Guido makes a joke about there’s just saying. There’s also a drug store nearby saying that I’m not going to let Chinese in with kangaroo. Right. And he’s making a joke out of out of this very serious situation.

00:23:34:03 – 00:23:49:21
Dan LeFebvre
And that storyline in like Life Is Beautiful is a fictional one. Guido is not a real person, but how old do you think life is beautiful? Did showing signs of anti-Semitism slowly growing in everyday life before the outbreak of World War two?

00:23:49:24 – 00:24:06:05
Robert Wolf
Great question. I mean, that’s an our answer, but fantastic movie. Beautifully done. The cinematography is outstanding. I’m glad you mentioned that scene, because to me, that’s the turning point in the movie. The better part of the first half of the movie is about It’s a Beautiful Life. It’s a wonder it’s not It’s a Wonderful Life.

00:24:06:05 – 00:24:27:20
Robert Wolf
That’s a different, fantastic movie, too. But life is beautiful there. He falls in love with this lady. He’s on the bicycle. It’s a lot of humor. I mean, a lot of humor in that movie. Even to the end. And, you know, it’s admirable how he hides the truth from his son throughout, but, yeah, that’s the turning point in the movies when he’s up there talking about the the perfect race or our rewards it.

00:24:27:27 – 00:24:45:01
Robert Wolf
And then the poor, his relatives horse getting painted, I think was green and purple. I forget the color. Maybe green. That’s good. And. Yeah. And and that’s the turning point there. And then all of a sudden, boom, they’re, they’re in prison and they’re going off to, to concentration camps, different some different things.

00:24:45:09 – 00:25:04:29
Robert Wolf
Some of the similarities with my, my parent, they don’t talk about women that much, but both that movie and similar, the, the women, the women guards, especially at Auschwitz and then in these concentration camps were to me more sadistic and more brutal to the prisoners than, than otherwise. Interestingly, a lot of Nazis, the people that were guarding them were the Germans, the Nazis.

00:25:04:29 – 00:25:22:27
Robert Wolf
So where were the Italians? That’s that’s a little bit different than Hungary, I think, because the Hungarians were the ones who keep an eye on the force. Laborers, and child, my dad’s parents were taken from their home. That was, that was a Nazi. Blue striped pajamas. Interesting. It’s a, you know, we don’t know what color stripes they have in general because black and white movie, but it’s blue stripes.

00:25:22:27 – 00:25:39:21
Robert Wolf
But we all know that, you know, outfits in other places, they were, red stripes. So that was, another thing that, that was those was a familiar, but, or different, I should say. I thought, one thing similar with the both of those movies is the language was a little fast for me. It’s in subtitles.

00:25:39:24 – 00:25:56:13
Robert Wolf
Well, I think they just talked a little bit faster. Was a little. Because, you know, we can read fast, but it just won’t have the pace or the how they talk. Maybe at the very beginning, speed it up because it makes the humor, the humor scenes a little more humorous, so to say, so to speak. But, yeah, they kind of slow that down a little bit, too.

00:25:56:15 – 00:26:12:21
Robert Wolf
What else are we? Yeah. I mean, that’s, just a fact. The met the end was unbelievable. The way the they say, do they want or try? They’re playing in a game to win a tank and they won. You know, the kid survives, but he doesn’t. The mom survives. Was a Dora. And, you know, of course you gets shot.

00:26:12:23 – 00:26:31:18
Robert Wolf
He gets shot for warning. The ladies, including his wife, as are being hauled away in a truck. So another thing that may not be realistic is the son and the father in the same bunk. Because the kids were separated, like in Auschwitz and other places, and like a and Schindler, you know, the kids are all the way, in bundles.

00:26:31:18 – 00:26:52:14
Robert Wolf
And boy, are the parents freaking. They’re all running towards the fences and trying to follow the trucks and talk about learned helplessness and senior kids being all the way to who knows where. So that part may not have been as realistic. But yeah, it was such a well-done movie. And, and I don’t know that much about the Italian history in, in World War Two, so that’s that.

00:26:52:14 – 00:27:11:10
Robert Wolf
But comparing what you to the other movie and to what I’ve read and done, and learned about pretty realistic, I mean, in their own way. Obviously not every concentration camps will be the same. Not a forced labor camps going to be the same. The different guards, different, food supply, who knows? Different amounts of sadism.

00:27:11:12 – 00:27:21:00
Robert Wolf
It’s people to take orders and people that delight in torturing others. And that’s so hard to put your arms around to. It’s just. I don’t know how people could be like that at all.

00:27:21:02 – 00:27:41:21
Dan LeFebvre
But you mentioned Schindler’s List, and whenever we think of movies that depict the Holocaust, that’s probably the first one that does come to mind. In that movie, we see what life is like in the Jewish ghetto. Of course, Schindler’s List depicts the ghetto in Krakow, Poland, but your grandparents were forced to move to another Nazi controlled Jewish ghetto in your Hungary.

00:27:41:23 – 00:27:44:15
Dan LeFebvre
I’m probably mispronouncing that, but.

00:27:44:18 – 00:27:49:18
Robert Wolf
My Hungarians not so. They never taught me, so I. It’s fine. That was their shooting around which.

00:27:49:20 – 00:27:57:21
Dan LeFebvre
But based on the research that you did for your book, were there similarities to what we see in Schindler’s List and in the ghetto there, and what your grandparents dealt with?

00:27:57:24 – 00:28:19:27
Robert Wolf
Many, many, many. First, I want to talk about, so many. I mean, unfortunately, the movie was in black and white, but the cinematography in that movie is unbelievable. Like I said, they talk a little fast, especially when they’re talking about people’s names a little fast for me, some of the conversation, but, amazing. Some overlap when when they’re taken to Auschwitz, we don’t know if it’s accidentally or if it’s on purpose.

00:28:20:04 – 00:28:37:05
Robert Wolf
And they put them in the chamber and they think that that’s it. The gas chamber and the relief showers. I can picture my mom, my my grandmother, in the in the gas chamber. And, of course, when they’re on trains, when I visit Holocaust museums, when I do book talks, book lectures, I can’t even go into the I.

00:28:37:05 – 00:29:01:10
Robert Wolf
It’s hard to even look in the train, let alone go in the train just because. Just because that imagery. So, so that resonates. The dramatic irony. I guess I can get that, in a minute, but, the random shooting. Okay, so dramatic irony. I’m going to mention the three things where I well, first of all, the turning point is when they’re horseback riding and they’re randomly shooting all the people in the ghetto, the people that stayed, the people that that tried to hide very, very sad scene.

00:29:01:10 – 00:29:18:21
Robert Wolf
Because every. And you know, another thing that’s not talked about is pets. You know, how many did the pets get left behind and the pets get killed. And we know in, life is beautiful. There’s a little kitten, is strolling around the, the clothes that were stolen. Another thing. And I’m going to go back to the dramatic irony, another thing that resonates.

00:29:18:24 – 00:29:35:21
Robert Wolf
With all of it is the stolen luggage. They bring your goods, leave them here, and they’ll come. They will arrive. Big deception. And when my dad’s parents were all to Auschwitz, it was to be they were going to go to forest or farm, plant flowers, trees. Do you know, do, work on the foliage? That’s what.

00:29:35:21 – 00:29:53:15
Robert Wolf
That’s how they were to see. And they end up going to Auschwitz. So. So three points of dramatic irony, not necessarily related to my, my dad, but one is actually. So when, the, engineer they’re building the they’re constructing the building and the engineer comes up to, I think it’s almond goes, I don’t know if I’m pronouncing or I’m on both.

00:29:53:15 – 00:30:09:27
Robert Wolf
He’s the I think he’s a lieutenant, but he’s the most sadistic guy around. And, she says to me now, the structure is not sound, and we need to do this and maybe even start again. And, what does he say? We are not going to argue with these people. And and then he asks the guy shooter, shooter.

00:30:09:27 – 00:30:28:01
Robert Wolf
And it’s one of the few scenes where somebody gets shot and it’s not him doing it. So amazingly enough. And then the irony is that he decides to he changes his mind and, and decides to, to take it down and start all over again. Another irony was, the the lady that comes to Schindler, I don’t know if that was Helen Hirsch.

00:30:28:04 – 00:30:50:13
Robert Wolf
Helen, her hair, shoes, how to pronounce it. I don’t know if it’s her or the other one, but she comes to Schindler and says, can you get my parents into this? Into the factory here? And he says, you know, he’s practically screaming at her, saying, no, I can’t save everybody this and that and that. And then the guy escapes from the camp and, and just, randomly shoots 25 guys and then just Clarkston.

00:30:50:13 – 00:31:23:23
Robert Wolf
If I’m pronouncing Sharon I love, they really did their best trying to do the correct pronunciation and I think an accurate job. But stern tells Schindler that, you know, 25 people died. So Schindler, goes out of his way to bring in, the lady’s parents, which is which is pretty cool, too. I mean, and, so the other irony and oh, that resonates with my dad in the forced labor camp where, an officer would get drunk and some, some little piece of malfeasance, like somebody chirping a word or or moving in the line, and the guy gets past and he’s,

00:31:23:25 – 00:31:40:18
Robert Wolf
And he’s got the he’s got the gun. And, you threatened to shoot every tense man, in his drunk, in his drunk, state, and, in the end, doesn’t. But imagine the fear. You know, you dad, it can seem like that. And everybody else counting 1 to 1 through ten, you know, every 10th man they’re going to kill.

00:31:40:20 – 00:31:58:01
Robert Wolf
And, And the guy does that, too. He’s got the whole line of the men, and he shoots the guy with the, with the, I don’t remember. It’s a gun shot. I think it was a, shotgun. And then they shoot him in the head and and that, like, that scene is so vivid. The way that was bleeding, it would’ve been even more so in color.

00:31:58:04 – 00:32:16:22
Robert Wolf
But the irony there is the same thing. Just like when he randomly shoots the 25 men and, also the one person, and then he says, who’s, you know, who’s next? And then the kid smart enough to step forward and said, you know, you who did this? Who’s the one who created the malfeasance? And the kid points at the dead guy and probably saved a lot of lives, just by doing that.

00:32:16:22 – 00:32:36:01
Robert Wolf
So that’s more irony. And then and, and comparable with my dad had to go through, you know, random threaten to be killed randomly and thank God, they, they didn’t carry that out. The other piece of irony, which is almost redemption itself, is when, the I think it was the rabbi, was one of the older men making the parts, and his productivity was on the low side that compared it.

00:32:36:01 – 00:32:52:17
Robert Wolf
You know, it took some a minute to make the part, which is where you got so few partially take him out to shoot him and his gun jams and, you know, his backup gun jams, and he gets a gun from his, mother, the fellow officers and or soldiers, I don’t remember. It was an officer. And that gun jams and there’s 15 or 20 clicks.

00:32:52:19 – 00:33:08:03
Robert Wolf
We shoot this guy, and the poor guy’s got his neck going down. He knows he’s going to die any second. It reminds me of that, the Vilna, the Vilna photograph. And then he ends up just sitting with the butt of the gun and and lets him live. Imagine going through that kind of trauma and not having PTSD.

00:33:08:05 – 00:33:23:13
Robert Wolf
It’s amazing. But the irony is, when they hang golf, they have a trouble date. They’ve got him by the rope, but they have trouble checking out those. The step stool underneath him, it takes some at least like a half a minute. They can’t do it in the guy. So that’s a little bit of redemption too. But, more dramatic irony.

00:33:23:13 – 00:33:42:17
Robert Wolf
So I it’s a fantastically bad movie. And and so, so similar in in his point, you know, the trains and the, or the, forced labor and, you know, we see forced labor, of course, in concentration camps to sometimes women, sometimes men. We don’t talk about much about forced labor in, with women in our story.

00:33:42:17 – 00:33:48:08
Robert Wolf
But lately I’ve been taught and enlightened about that part, that part of it as well.

00:33:48:10 – 00:34:06:19
Dan LeFebvre
Something that we don’t see in Schindler’s List much is, is how others in the city reacted to the ghetto being set up and the Nazis moving the Jews into it. How did the civilians in and around Europe react to the Jewish ghetto being established for when your your grandparents were there?

00:34:06:21 – 00:34:23:12
Robert Wolf
Well, once they were in the ghetto, they had no access to the outside world. They had limited food, limited medical supplies and my dad, being a dentist, brought what he had. But it wasn’t enough. And ultimately it was to carry him off to Auschwitz to kill them. Most of them immediately, unfortunately. So I don’t think they had much time to even think about it.

00:34:23:12 – 00:34:48:26
Robert Wolf
But during, I’ll say this, that, but they were shunned. No doubt it was hard to go out shopping without being, bullied or picked on or even mugged. We talk about that in the or the fear of it. And also when my, my dad and his friend Frank were out on leave or whatever it was in town, or in that they were on camp, for one thing they didn’t have, then my dad needed a haircut.

00:34:48:26 – 00:35:06:12
Robert Wolf
And if you remember that scene, the anti-Semitic barber. But, they had the yellow bands was ridiculous hats that they had to wear and yellow bit unarmed paramilitary. And yeah, a couple what beautiful women walk by and they, they, they won’t even look at them. And believe me, the matter, they’re dying to meet A and B with a a warm blooded girl.

00:35:06:12 – 00:35:26:18
Robert Wolf
And it just didn’t happen. You were shunned. So, in its learned helplessness. I mean, people feared for their lives, for sure. And, they did what they were told, and and it’s scary stuff. So, and then. Oh, that remind me of another scene where in Schindler, the young girl, is yelling out, Goodbye Jews, goodbye Jews!

00:35:26:18 – 00:35:44:17
Robert Wolf
And, it’s awful to see that, because I think it reminds me of, what we just talked about. The Christians turning on the Jews. It also reminds me of what’s going on in Gaza at the, these children are being educated to hate Jewish people, hate Israel, hate Americans. And it’s that’s got to stop. That really has to stop.

00:35:44:20 – 00:36:03:18
Dan LeFebvre
There is a scene in in Schindler’s List where we see the Nazis going in there clearing everyone out of the ghetto, to take them to the concentration camps. You talked a little bit about that in the movie. The camps they take them to first is off, and then later in the movie we see Auschwitz, which you mentioned, and we’ll talk about Auschwitz in a moment, because I know your grandparents were there.

00:36:03:18 – 00:36:22:07
Dan LeFebvre
But according to Schindler’s List, seeing the brutality of the Nazi soldiers during the liquidation of the ghetto, that’s what leads Liam Neeson’s version of Oskar Schindler to start working with one of his employees. You mentioned him earlier. Is Doc Stern, Ben Kingsley’s character, to hire more and more Jews to help save them from being murdered by the Nazis.

00:36:22:09 – 00:36:36:13
Dan LeFebvre
Were there any transformational points like this for the civilians in Darfur in Hungary, where they started to change their minds about what they’re seeing? But the brutality of the Nazis, like, we kind of start seeing it happening in Schindler’s List with Oskar Schindler.

00:36:36:16 – 00:36:52:09
Robert Wolf
Well, great point. You know, that’s the turning point of that movie. If I haven’t already mentioned, when they’re horseback riding. Yeah, they’re looking down at that. One thing that resonates, too, is, the humiliation, the the general, the the men, the rabbis, you know, religious with the pious ain’t undercutting it. And they’re cutting their hair and laughing.

00:36:52:15 – 00:37:11:18
Robert Wolf
So that kind of humiliation, was there so humiliation we don’t talk about, as much. I think the Aryans were. And Hungary gets mentioned later that they were bringing in Hungarians, to one of the camps late, later in the movie. And that was true later in time, during at least a couple of years later. But that humiliation really, really resonates.

00:37:11:18 – 00:37:30:24
Robert Wolf
Well, what else is it? Yeah. The marching, the other humiliation is that, Gough has his own personal woman slave that he ends up abusing y’all. She’s. She goes the food and probably sex. Well, there is there is a sex scene or two in there. And of course, at the end he beats her up and but she survives.

00:37:30:27 – 00:37:46:29
Robert Wolf
But he beats her up and it’s drunk or whatever. It’s the wine cellar. I basically remember that scene, but, humiliation is a big thing about it. So, and then, of course, starvation is another one thing that resonates people to didn’t have food to eat. There was no there was no trade. There was nothing coming in. So shunned is the best word.

00:37:46:29 – 00:38:08:15
Robert Wolf
And like we said before, the the witness, the witness was the next victim. I also remember, golf shooting randomly at people that were sitting down and taking a break. So, Oh, and know the dramatic irony. He has a kid cleaning out his bathtub, and he’s trying to put the saddle on his horse. I don’t know if it’s the same kid, but, the guy that the kid that can’t put the kettle on the horse properly.

00:38:08:17 – 00:38:25:12
Robert Wolf
It’s right after Schindler talks about power and the power of the power, if you can forgive. And he remembers that for a while. So he forgives the kid, for the for the saddle. But then when he screws up using the wrong material to clean his bathtub, he ends up shooting him. And, it’s just, What a sadistic guy.

00:38:25:12 – 00:38:40:24
Robert Wolf
I mean, I was a guy who deserved to be executed without, without trial. I mean, so many witnesses. So, Yeah, that whole process, of course, it’s never going to be the same at every camp, but what? People running around in fear that they might get shot or killed, or if they take a break, they’re going to get killed.

00:38:41:02 – 00:38:48:14
Robert Wolf
You can’t. It’s just, some furthermore that what people had to think in their minds and stay strong while they’re doing it.

00:38:48:17 – 00:39:11:18
Dan LeFebvre
That those, those types of things are, like you said, unfathomable. Like it’s I, it’s what I’m trying to unravel. A lot of this. But, you know, in our discussion here, but also there are just some things like we there’s only so much that we can do as we’re talking here in this conversation that just it’s not. It will never be enough.

00:39:11:18 – 00:39:20:03
Dan LeFebvre
I mean, there’s to to to tell the true story of it. I mean, it’s yeah, I’ve tried to have words, but yeah, I can’t even do that.

00:39:20:10 – 00:39:42:08
Robert Wolf
Well, it was talk about Christians. You know, if we had Hamas, we had Hamas tanks and armored armored cars, guns, tanks, then that horrible flag, you know, marched in the streets here and, and, Florida or where you’re from, Oklahoma. God bless, the heartland. We would be thinking different then, it would affect us more then we would have.

00:39:42:10 – 00:40:03:26
Robert Wolf
We’d have a lot more fear. Yeah, but it’s it’s patchy areas. It’s Canada, Australia, parts of the U.S anti-Semitic. So it’s not it’s not directly in our face. But that’s why I’m doing this is so that it doesn’t happen. I mean, that’s why, 99% of us are good people. 99% of us believe in work, family, occasional vacation, religion, and if possible, whatever the freedom to vote, freedom speech.

00:40:03:29 – 00:40:26:01
Robert Wolf
Is that 1% or less that the ruins are for everybody and not just Hamas, you know, Osama bin laden and Saddam Hussein? Hitler, Pol Pot, the list goes on and on. We can counteract with better names Jesus, Moses, Noah, MLK, Gandhi, that. So there’s a nice there’s a balance there. But, we’re still talking about hate and war rather than these other guys.

00:40:26:01 – 00:40:41:27
Robert Wolf
I mean, unless you’re a staunch Christian or Jewish or Muslim, I don’t think a lot I meant for this to happen. Where? I don’t know, I don’t know much about the Muslim religion, but I do have Muslim friends, and they’re peaceful, and, So what’s going. I mean, I can’t get my arms around it. And, the thing about this book.

00:40:42:01 – 00:40:59:15
Robert Wolf
Yeah. And the story is my parents knew that it would be necessary to share it because they didn’t think that the hate and the Jewish scapegoating issue would go away. And each year they’re right, 60, 80 on our years. And the disturbing part is people find different ways to maim and torture, punish, kill each other. And it’s really sad.

00:40:59:15 – 00:41:16:27
Robert Wolf
And I just I can’t feel it because as a radiologist, we’re into preservation of life. The beauty of the human body, the beauty of the anatomy, the cell and all this training to go through it. There’s no room for racism or prejudice in my field. But these people would just. They would think nothing about chopping your head off or killing somebody instantly.

00:41:17:00 – 00:41:37:07
Robert Wolf
No respect for human life. And I can’t wrap my my hands around that. It’s just not that. It’s not what I was built for. And so we educate, we try to spread the word. We do podcasts, we do, book talks, book presentations, TV interviews, in some cases radio. And, we get the point across while sharing good stories, amazing stories throughout.

00:41:37:07 – 00:42:05:13
Dan LeFebvre
A lot of if you go back to Schindler’s List throughout a lot of that movie, it it does recreate the I mentioned your passion and and Auschwitz and where there were hundreds of thousands of people that were murdered. And unfortunately, that number also includes your grandparents, which is a very moving story told in the book. I think a lot of people base their knowledge of concentration camps today on what we see in movies like Schindler’s List.

00:42:05:15 – 00:42:23:23
Dan LeFebvre
But I remember the story of like The Latrine. And in your book, we don’t ever see in the movie Schindler’s List at all. So there’s obviously other things there that we don’t we’re not going to see in the movie. But based on what you know of your grandparents experience, how well do you think Schindler’s List does capturing the horrors of Auschwitz?

00:42:23:26 – 00:42:44:19
Robert Wolf
I think it’s amazing. Like I said, the cinematography is amazing. The storyline and the brutality. We’ll go back to the women guards that were were tougher than one thing that resonates. So, I mean, I don’t like spoiling too meaning, but my my dad’s a miracle. And my dad found out what happened to his parents. An eyewitness who happened to survive Auschwitz and meet, meet up with him in his hometown of Jura.

00:42:44:19 – 00:43:06:28
Robert Wolf
I mean, all of those. That’s a miracle after miracle that that happened. But, Yeah, being in the train reminded me of, my my my grandmother, the grandparents I never met, but my grandmother, was an orphan, a little girl orphan. And they went straight to the chamber. So, and actually, when I did that, when I first did this project, turning it from autobiography to biography, I had to walk away from from the book.

00:43:06:28 – 00:43:25:24
Robert Wolf
I had to walk away from the story for at least a week, ten days, because it profoundly affected me. So, so. And, you know, I hate to say this, but fortunately, she didn’t have to it. Her life didn’t have to linger on for months, months at a time. And where you’re starving and you’re trapped and you were on your forced labor, and you don’t know when your last day is going to be, Schindler.

00:43:25:24 – 00:43:40:00
Robert Wolf
I think they capture all of that pretty well. I mean, everybody’s going to have a different story. But it didn’t go well. And then another thing that resonates is my my grandfather, who was a dentist who told the the, the intake people at the intake that he was a dentist was a doctor, and he might be useful.

00:43:40:06 – 00:43:55:27
Robert Wolf
So they assign him to cleaning latrines, and we don’t see that in Schindler. But we sure see all these kids hiding in Auschwitz, including the one that you get shut out by every other letter, every other kid. And then he’s up, he ends up diving into the feces and he hides in the latrine or whatever you want.

00:43:56:04 – 00:44:07:07
Robert Wolf
It’s disgusting. I mean, I can’t imagine what was the movie with the kid from India who does the same thing. He ends up diving into the, into the feces, and it just, the. Joe, remember that movie?

00:44:07:07 – 00:44:07:24
Dan LeFebvre
Yes.

00:44:07:29 – 00:44:10:07
Robert Wolf
And he’s on jeopardy or something like.

00:44:10:09 – 00:44:11:14
Dan LeFebvre
Slumdog Millionaire.

00:44:11:16 – 00:44:15:27
Robert Wolf
Yes. Very good. Thank you. I knew you were. No, you got a brilliant memory. I can.

00:44:15:27 – 00:44:17:01
Dan LeFebvre
Go on.

00:44:17:03 – 00:44:35:10
Robert Wolf
And that’s the. Yeah. That’s good. I mean, I need more people like you helped me with the message. This is why we’re doing this, too. But, talking about great movies and and a story that could be a movie. At least some people say that, so, so that resonate. Yeah. And then. So these were I went by at least my, my dad’s parents, didn’t have to endure all that.

00:44:35:12 – 00:44:51:20
Robert Wolf
I mean, if you’ve ever fasted just one day without food, it’s tough enough. I can’t imagine week after week, we would bury little food. And, you know, you’ve seen the pictures of the people that are skin and bones. Those that were lucky enough to survive. But, what a what a terrible life. They must have adapted and they had to live then.

00:44:51:22 – 00:44:56:13
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, it goes back to the words don’t really do it justice to to.

00:44:56:15 – 00:45:13:09
Robert Wolf
Not only that that personal. It’s the light. The light. So. So my dad’s father died probably of cholera week from the feces, you know. So that was, but there’s tuberculosis. There’s lice. My dad had a foot infection, when he was in, when he was forced labor camp, and he had lice a couple times. He had hepatitis.

00:45:13:09 – 00:45:30:10
Robert Wolf
He had a bad back. He had a lot going on. And then. And then recently talking about women in forced labor camps. There’s this guy in England, super nice and super dedicated to what we’re doing. He’s turning black and white photos into color photos, and he’s doing a good job, and he’s trying to get financial support for that.

00:45:30:12 – 00:45:48:13
Robert Wolf
But he did a, it was a short it was a short little documentary, maybe 2 or 3 minutes, maybe five, with conversion from black and white to color. And it was the forced labor. The women forced laborers from Hungary. And a lot of them had gangrene. They had gangrenous legs and gangrenous feet. And they actually, they depicted, what their skin look like.

00:45:48:13 – 00:46:12:14
Robert Wolf
And it’s brutal that. So, you know, you’d never think of gangrene. I mean, so a lot of health issues besides the starvation and lack of water to, of course, dehydration and, you know, electrolytes going to be off and, and, muscle mass goes and eventually you die because you’re, you’re malnourished. So I’m sure many, many people died from, I don’t know the exact numbers, but malnourishment, I’m sure, was not just getting shot or put in the gas chambers.

00:46:12:14 – 00:46:33:06
Robert Wolf
Just. Or other sickness, malnourishment, sickness. It’s just too much. It’s too much to think about. It’s 200. It is. And that need doesn’t need to happen. And it also resonates with Gaza. It with what’s the prisoners that are still there? I can’t imagine even if they released them today, the ones that are still alive, just talk about PTSD, talk about trying to overcome that kind of trauma, not knowing when your last day is.

00:46:33:06 – 00:46:38:03
Robert Wolf
Mostly that’s that’s the big thing, the wait and the boredom and, horror fun.

00:46:38:05 – 00:46:49:06
Dan LeFebvre
If we shift back to the movie, there’s, we’re talking about Schindler’s List, and that’s going to be the most popular movie about someone saving Jewish lives during the Holocaust. But it’s not the.

00:46:49:08 – 00:46:56:08
Robert Wolf
The Ten Commandments. Well, I gotta say, that’s a fantastic movie, too. But, I don’t mean. Sorry to interrupt. Yes.

00:46:56:09 – 00:47:01:15
Dan LeFebvre
No no no no no, that’s a that’s a classic a little bit outside the time frame that we’re talking about now.

00:47:01:15 – 00:47:07:18
Robert Wolf
And I’m kidding then Fiddler on the roof was another one. But it was a Rorschach. But, you know, that was a lot of anti-Semitism there too. But go ahead. I’m sorry.

00:47:07:18 – 00:47:41:02
Dan LeFebvre
I know you’re there’s another movie, called walking with the enemy about a Hungarian Jew named Ella Cohen, who he dresses up in an SS uniform to help rescue other Jews. Now, Ella Cohen is another fictional character, but he is based on a real person. Again, with with pronunciation. I believe it’s, Pincus Rosenbaum. He was disguised. He disguised himself in uniforms of the SS, the Hungarian Arrow Cross, which you mentioned earlier, the the Hungarian Lavant and the with the purpose of of saving, I believe hundreds of Jews.

00:47:41:04 – 00:47:51:15
Dan LeFebvre
During your research, did you come across other stories like Oskar Schindler or like Rosenbaum, of people who risked their lives to save the lives of others?

00:47:51:18 – 00:48:11:04
Robert Wolf
Raoul Wallenberg, my my, my dad and his friend Frank had those, passes, those forged papers. And he did, I don’t know, hundreds, thousands of them to help save people. Wallenberg was from Sweden, if I’m not mistaken. And I believe he was Jewish, but fantastic what he did. You going back to Schindler real quick is the way he laments.

00:48:11:04 – 00:48:26:23
Robert Wolf
You know this. Amongst all the murders he did no lamentation. You know. No. No sense of, of of, of mortality, no sense of, what’s the word I’m looking for? It just does. It doesn’t bother. And it doesn’t affect you.

00:48:26:25 – 00:48:29:21
Dan LeFebvre
No sense of decency. I mean, humanity, like Mr..

00:48:29:25 – 00:48:49:17
Robert Wolf
Schindler saving all these people. And he’s still got his car and he’s still got, like, enough jewelry or whatever. Yet on on him, he used his rings and he still your e remorse about. That’s the what I was and will remark you remorse is he elements about how he could have saved another eight or 10 or 12 Jewish people and and they had to console him because of that.

00:48:49:17 – 00:49:19:28
Robert Wolf
He cries, he breaks down. It’s a real it’s a real irony too. So, Yeah, but, but so he helps. So like Wallenberg, probably countless, Christian people, the Christians out, my dad, I mean, he wouldn’t survive without a lot of Christian help. Now, these aren’t famous stories, but being able to go to a casino, and hide in a casino, hide in a, a nunnery or, nursing home, with demented people and and, where else did he, his friend, hiding in a haberdashery and a hatbox, that kind of thing.

00:49:19:28 – 00:49:36:08
Robert Wolf
A lot of Christians help them. And then even after that, during communist Hungary, my my dad was getting, a few shekels sent, from Israel, from my mother’s mother and stepfather at this point, who was a Marky Mark in Israel, a consulate to Hungary. So they’d sneak them a few shekels, to, to this place in Budapest.

00:49:36:08 – 00:49:53:03
Robert Wolf
And my dad, it was a cloak and dagger story, the way my dad had to weave in and out of buildings to sneak to get that money, because he could have been in prison for that, too. So, a lot of people helped Jewish and Christian. Those that could a lot didn’t, again, fear for their lives. Not a lot of famous, well, here’s one actually.

00:49:53:03 – 00:50:14:15
Robert Wolf
Sorry. In communist Hungary, though, it’s not. My parents had an illegal Jewish wedding in 1953. My mom’s uncle, what? He sponsored that in his home. And like I say, it was illegal, and KGB was there, so, and my parents, when my parents, were on their honeymoon, the. He got arrested. He was a surgeon, chief of surgery in a Budapest hospital.

00:50:14:18 – 00:50:30:28
Robert Wolf
And they Waldemar for 13 months tortured him and, try to get him to confess to the to the murder. I think it was Wallenberg, if I’m not mistaken. So. And he wouldn’t he wouldn’t do it. And he was he came back a broken man, and obviously. And then they put him out in some rural clinic or something.

00:50:31:00 – 00:50:55:22
Robert Wolf
He ended up, ironically, in Sweden, where he had a successful career, and, solo daughter Susie, who was the last survivor in my book and just died in Jerusalem. Couple that soon after the attacks. 12 or 7. So she was comatose at the time and long standing on. And so as bad as that was, and it was great busier the year before, at least enough to know, about what was happening in Gaza and Israel.

00:50:55:22 – 00:51:22:01
Robert Wolf
So, all of them rest in peace. But yeah, so there’s famous and there’s not so famous in the autobiography. My dad mentions Mengele, that that is that Mengele greeted his father. But, the research that we this was a lot of research in our book, multiple people, historians, but, Berenbaum, Michael Berenbaum, who was one of the professors who wrote a tremendous, testimonial to other professors, did too.

00:51:22:02 – 00:51:38:06
Robert Wolf
They’re all good. But he mentions that don’t mix up where we’re talking about an Auschwitz because he had been there. He knows the history. And so we we took out Mengele. But, it may well be. And this is speculation that my dad’s father met Mengele, and he was the one that appealed since he was a doctor, too.

00:51:38:08 – 00:51:54:27
Robert Wolf
He was brutal himself, right? I mean, taking our feelings and using, humans as, for experiments and all that. But, if it was him or whoever it was, I guess I can’t call it nice, but got him a week’s worth. Two weeks worth of life, even though that week was miserable. So there are people that,

00:51:54:29 – 00:52:04:00
Robert Wolf
Yeah, the circles there are overlapping circles, for sure. And, as soon as we are done, I’ll probably think a couple more or two, but, you never know. And that’s a great question.

00:52:04:02 – 00:52:23:15
Dan LeFebvre
I think it’s great to know that. I mean, there are the famous one. Oskar Schindler obviously is famous, but he’s famous because of the movie and and the book and the as well. But he wasn’t doing it for fame. And there’s, you know, a lot of these stories, like you’re talking about the they’re not well known now, but that’s not why they were doing it.

00:52:23:15 – 00:52:54:21
Dan LeFebvre
They were doing it to help fellow humans. And I think that’s that in and of itself is a little bit of a light in, you know, in this dark time of history where there’s all this going on. But there are some people that will help. And I I’m happy to hear that. Yes, there were others that even though we might not know their names and whoever’s listening to this may not know their names, but they were still hoping because it was the right thing to do, not because they wanted to get their name, you know, a movie made about them.

00:52:54:26 – 00:53:00:16
Dan LeFebvre
So that we’d be talking about them on a podcast later. But, you know, it’s just the right thing to do.

00:53:00:18 – 00:53:20:26
Robert Wolf
Yeah. No, it’s it’s very palpable. And, you know, you really identify with Schindler and you always have the it’s another ironic thing. You have the swastika. Yeah. The little swastika on a super all the time. But it was, it was this guys, you know, that was it. But you’re right. He just did it out of, the love for human beings and and that that goes for Moses and that goes for Jesus and Gandhi and all these other former leaders.

00:53:20:26 – 00:53:35:03
Robert Wolf
And, of course they got some recognition, of course. But, and another one that comes to mind is Captain Khomeini. If you remember his, he’s the one who got them the forged papers. And, and I believe if I did my memory short, I’m going through my book again. You have to. Every so often. There’s never all the details.

00:53:35:11 – 00:53:54:17
Robert Wolf
But, he might have been Jewish, but since he was a big guy in the military, he had, privileges. So he helped my dad out to more than once, too. So that was another one. You may have been Christian, maybe Jewish, but, I’m glad that my parents didn’t know more famous people because. Or my grandparents, I should say, because, that to me, been more apt to be killed.

00:53:54:19 – 00:54:10:25
Robert Wolf
It didn’t matter anyway. But, if they lived in the out in the middle of nowhere, which Jer was, and it was a, pretty, very populated, industrial town. So, and that was it. They were they were in Transylvania first. And Albert. Julia, if I’m not pronouncing that right, might be I mean, if it was Spanish would be Albert.

00:54:10:27 – 00:54:42:04
Robert Wolf
Julia, I guess, or Julia it might be, but. Albert. Julia. So they they loved Mother Hungary, as do my parents. And, they decided to go back to George. So instead of living Transylvania. So. And that might have been an ill fated decision to my mom and dad. Love mother Hungary, too, by the way, and would have probably stayed if the Americans had taken over rather than the Soviets, because they had had enough with the two wars and, and and countless persecution, illegal weddings, torture, deaths and, deception.

00:54:42:04 – 00:54:58:18
Robert Wolf
You know, their, their colleagues and friends and fellow doctors were trying to get them to convert to the communist ideal. And my parents wouldn’t buy into that. And, and that state, the the Soviets, in their arrogance, called my dad not a real enemy. And that’s what they really were. They love Mother Hungary, but they weren’t going to stay.

00:54:58:21 – 00:55:13:17
Robert Wolf
My mom was a med school, by the way, to winning them. So. And dad was already in okay. And and he had to double down as a trauma surgeon during a revolution. So they’re both frontliners. And after that they said and they were closing the borders and people were leaving in droves. But they managed to get out.

00:55:13:21 – 00:55:19:13
Robert Wolf
That’s my dad’s fourth escape, which is they’re all harrowing, but, memorable for sure.

00:55:19:15 – 00:55:42:17
Dan LeFebvre
Right. Mentioning Hungary and, earlier I mentioned Ben Kingsley and Schindler’s List and that how that movie started in 1939. But Ben Kingsley is in another movie called walking with the enemy, and he plays another person that you mentioned, Regent Horthy, the Hungarian leader. That movie takes place in 1944, when the Germans finally occupy Hungary. And Regent Horthy doesn’t want to let the Nazis take the Jews.

00:55:42:17 – 00:55:58:02
Dan LeFebvre
So he’s trying to sign a deal with the Soviet Union to get the Nazis out of Hungary. But then in a group called Arrow Cross, which you had also mentioned earlier, takes control of Hungary up until the Red Army pushes the Nazis out of the during the siege of Budapest. This is all as far as the movie is concerned.

00:55:58:02 – 00:56:03:09
Dan LeFebvre
But what really happened with Hungarian, Polish artists during World War Two?

00:56:03:11 – 00:56:20:21
Robert Wolf
Oh well, that’s you. And you kind of said it yourself. I mean, you needed a guide. You needed it literally. So Horthy takes over after he was an admirable admiral in World War One. He takes over Hungary again. The Jews feel like he’s he’s not, friendly to the Jews, even though what if what you say is true, that might be the opposite.

00:56:20:21 – 00:56:23:24
Robert Wolf
But, kudos to him for for trying to prevent that.

00:56:23:26 – 00:56:26:25
Dan LeFebvre
Well, I was in the movie. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but that’s the way the movie presents.

00:56:26:25 – 00:56:40:06
Robert Wolf
Oh, yeah. Got to see the movie in and review the book and compare notes. There’s not a lot in the book about there’s a lot of history, but it’s it’s history light. I call it my coauthor, Janice. If it weren’t for her, I wouldn’t be here. She’s a fantastic writer, but helped me turn the book and something really special.

00:56:40:06 – 00:56:56:26
Robert Wolf
But, if you were a junior school, they had the red chair. There’s a white chair. You know, you didn’t have communism. It was in then. They’re trying to say communism is no good. They’re beating up people. They’re going door to door. And then, of course, the rise of fascism, the Nazis entering, the, entering Hungary.

00:56:56:26 – 00:57:27:26
Robert Wolf
So the political climate then was you did what the Nazis said or you’re screwed. You know, that was Hungary trying to fight Germany. It was horse horses versus tanks, you know. How does that let me know how that goes for you. Right. And then, finally 1944 or 45, you Arrow cross, tremendously anti-Semitic. In my, I, maybe like a Gestapo or KGB type thing, they were worse to the Jews and they went out of their way opposite of Schindler, where, you know, the last day of the war and all the guards you only day, that’s all the guards.

00:57:27:26 – 00:57:42:24
Robert Wolf
And, in with the, prisoners, the laborers, and, he openly invites them to, to do what they want with them. Kill them or not. Or you can go home to your families, he says, and they all even go, well, that’s not what it was like in Hungary that at the end of the war, they went out of their way to kill as many Hungarians as they could.

00:57:42:27 – 00:58:07:09
Robert Wolf
And we all know about this. The Danube River, 21,000 Jewish people were shot to death, in cold blood, without their clothes on in the winter. December 43rd, January 44th. And, so that’s, it’s complete. Opposite of Schindler and it’s very set. So that’s the politics then. And of course, communism takes over. And, you know, we get the Stalin years and, and they wouldn’t go away.

00:58:07:09 – 00:58:25:20
Robert Wolf
And the irony is, like if the Americans had one or the West, the allies, then I probably wouldn’t be here. And I’d probably been born and raised in Hungary and maybe got lucky enough to go to med school. But they they left for the U.S., so. And then obviously, the Soviet, the Red Army and Soviet stayed on for forever and ever and ever.

00:58:25:23 – 00:58:45:13
Robert Wolf
Maybe now it’s a little bit of a democracy, but I don’t know much about recent Hungarian politics. But what I’ve seen and heard, the, Orban is, is Putin’s puppet. And, I could see him doing land for people. Deal, without dropping out. And let’s listen on. Jared’s never got a break for 80, 100 years, the most the majority of the 20th century was.

00:58:45:20 – 00:59:03:23
Robert Wolf
And the sad thing is, Hungarian Jews were. Well, if we’re going to flash, flash back to before World War one, 1890s, you know, the gay 90s and all that, Hungarian Jews and Jews in Europe were well treated. They were well respected. And and that boy that that climate turned, between world War one, World War two and and beyond with the Communist.

00:59:03:23 – 00:59:21:27
Robert Wolf
So, so Stalin dies in 53. That was good news. Hungarian, because he was really brutal, and I and Hungary in 56, they have their revolution. And, it goes badly for them. And then the hard liners became even more so because they were clamping down on the citizens. They didn’t want people to revolt.

00:59:21:27 – 00:59:37:12
Robert Wolf
And and they almost they didn’t almost win, but they almost got the Soviets out of there. And then just something changed about it. But instead of less, it became more with all the tanks coming in. And, that’s something that my dad said to the were that the men that were driving the tanks were from the Far East.

00:59:37:12 – 00:59:55:04
Robert Wolf
They were from, I don’t think it was Malaysia, maybe Burma. But they thought they were in Egypt. They thought they were in the Sinai, the Sinai War in 56. But they weren’t. They were. They were in Hungary fighting. So, that’s that was an interesting little tidbit. So it’s kind of like, oh, sorry, the North Koreans, you know, going to fight with the Russians kind of sounds like that, right?

00:59:55:04 – 01:00:01:08
Robert Wolf
They, they, you know, they recruit, they recruit people from other countries. Well, World War II was all about that, too.

01:00:01:08 – 01:00:26:05
Dan LeFebvre
But you you mentioned World War One and even before World War One, and that lead right into the last movie that I want to talk to you about, today’s, 1999 film, epic film called sunshine. I know up until now we’ve mostly talked about World War Two, but sunshine focuses on three generations of characters, all played by Ray finds across generations of a family called the Sun Shines, a, Hungarian Jewish family.

01:00:26:11 – 01:00:44:23
Dan LeFebvre
And the movie goes from the end of the 19th century with Hungarian nationalism through World War One, World War Two, and then into the Hungarian Revolution in 1956. And the first generation of the movie we see refines version of ignite, Sun and Shine. He wants to be a judge, but to do that he has to change his last name to something.

01:00:44:23 – 01:01:03:18
Dan LeFebvre
According to the movie is more Hungarian, so he changes it to show where there pressure even before the rise of fascism. Because in the movie this is happening, you know, before World War one and 19th century, was there pressure for Hungarians to hide their Jewish heritage?

01:01:03:20 – 01:01:18:12
Robert Wolf
Yeah. I’m thank you for reminding me of that movie, because I’ve heard of it recently and I didn’t remember the title. So if you don’t mind, please email me that, because that’s something that sounds like. But it’s totally, it’s encountered distinction too. Oh, he was in Schindler. I mean, that that kind of, that kind of wants to be a judge.

01:01:18:18 – 01:01:37:27
Robert Wolf
And he’s an excellent actor, don’t get me wrong. But, and so is the guy that played Schindler, you know, Liam, Liam Neeson, and we back to Ben Kingsley. But yeah, my dad’s parents converted. They converted to Christianity, reluctantly, but they did. And, it was so he could practice dentistry and hide his heritage. And my dad’s mother hated it, and.

01:01:37:27 – 01:01:55:00
Robert Wolf
But they did. So, and I’m sure a lot of other Hungarian Jews did. I mean, I’ve read about it and heard that other Hungarian used it in it, and of course, hiding certain valuables, hiding radios, hiding your religion. That was a part of your heritage. And it’s horrible thing. Now, they weren’t that religious, but for the Orthodox Jew either.

01:01:55:00 – 01:02:14:14
Robert Wolf
Good luck having that up. And, until they got to Auschwitz and you weren’t allowed to practice religion or do anything, they shaved off all your hair, humiliated you, killed you, clowns too. Not just the religious were clowns. But they were fortunate enough to convert back. My. I’m a mr. Cronenberg. My dad’s father’s, his cousin, just turns up.

01:02:14:14 – 01:02:30:21
Robert Wolf
I forget how the circumstances of how they meet, but he’s he’s wealthy, and he helps him open up a private practice, and they’re in their home and, lends the money or whatever. Maybe if ghost money and we don’t really talk about how it’s returned, if at all. But he has to convert. They have to convert back to Judaism.

01:02:30:21 – 01:02:45:13
Robert Wolf
And as soon as they get that news, my dad’s mom’s taking the cross off the wall. And, not that they didn’t like Christians because most of their friends were Christians, no doubt. Because they didn’t always share in with the Jewish people, especially the Orthodox. So, and so they converted back. So it was a big sacrifice for them.

01:02:45:18 – 01:03:02:19
Robert Wolf
I can’t imagine converting to Christianity. I love Christianity, I think it’s great religion and theory. I think, that Christians have had a hard time over the last, you know, thousand, 2000 years in certain cases. The Bible talks about the Spanish Inquisition. We talk about the Crusades. So all of that, both at both ends of it. Right.

01:03:02:19 – 01:03:23:06
Robert Wolf
And also Muslims and Jews as well, too. So, yeah, a lot of sacrifices they had to make, to finally get a life going, finally having my dad, who grows up, not wealthy, but, you know, upper middle, grows up as a spoiled kid, ironically ends up forced labor and gets through that. But, so the 20s were kind of easy on them.

01:03:23:09 – 01:03:37:02
Robert Wolf
But, in between where during, during certain times they had to convert at the either. And then of course, you couldn’t if you didn’t wear your yellow star or a yellow band. In my dad’s case, in the forced labor, you’d be punished or shot for sure. You’ll.

01:03:37:05 – 01:04:00:04
Dan LeFebvre
Well, you might have already answered my my next question on that one, because in sunshine, the next generation is very finds plays the same. He, he plays different characters in each generation. So in the first generation refines, character is ignites, and he’s trying to become a judge. And then the next generation, once the child grows up, they have a younger, you know, different actor playing the younger version, and he grows up.

01:04:00:04 – 01:04:18:27
Dan LeFebvre
And it’s also a great find, you know? But this time he’s Adam Shaw. And in Adam’s timeline, this is during World War two, and he has to convert. He converts to Roman Catholicism because Jews aren’t allowed to join the fencing club, which is what he wants to do. But then in the movie, obviously that doesn’t work. They find out about his Jewish ancestry.

01:04:18:27 – 01:04:31:29
Dan LeFebvre
And so you can’t just convert. It doesn’t doesn’t really work. So would it be with the movie’s concept there be correct that switching religions wouldn’t work as far as the brutality of the Nazis to escape that?

01:04:32:02 – 01:04:51:13
Robert Wolf
Probably not. I mean, I don’t even know how people know who’s Jewish and who is. And I mean, I have no idea what’s happened once the traumas, on the door. I mean, I, you know, I don’t know how they, how they could masterfully and systematically find them all and exterminate them. But, you bring up a good point, because my dad, my dad’s father, was Jewish.

01:04:51:13 – 01:05:13:02
Robert Wolf
He lost a government job as a dentist. They he had to be, first of all, let them do part time. And then they laid him off and they said, you know, no pension, no benefits. And then ultimately laid off. We talked about the sign. No Jews or dogs. That was out there in Hungary, too. So you weren’t allowed to fencing, you know, certain, bars, restaurants, places of worship, places of business.

01:05:13:02 – 01:05:27:14
Robert Wolf
So Jews weren’t allowed to go to. So and that same sign that we, we talk about in, life was beautiful and, also my dad was not allowed to be on the swim team because he was Jewish. And, my dad loved to swim. I was a pretty good swimmer in high school. I guess I got that from my dad.

01:05:27:14 – 01:05:44:23
Robert Wolf
I swam for four years, and, he did breaststroke, me butterfly and freestyle. But anyway, he had he was kicked off the swim team because he was Jewish. So, yeah, ramifications were there. And, very sad. And it’s too bad because his coach liked him and and his friends like them. And they were very sad for him, but there was nothing they could do,

01:05:44:25 – 01:06:02:03
Dan LeFebvre
Those sort of things. Again, it’s hard to wrap my head around because. So what does that have to do with swimming? Like it? Like you’re swimming in a pool in water. I mean, you’re competing in not to not to take away from how serious it can be for competitions and stuff, but it’s it’s still a sport and it’s similar.

01:06:02:03 – 01:06:21:02
Dan LeFebvre
We see the similar sort of thing in, in the movie with sunshine, except it’s fencing. He’s, you know, he’s fencing. He’s like, that’s part of the reason why he ends up he converts is because he’s like, this doesn’t really it doesn’t affect my how good I am at fencing and with my practicing. And I imagine a similar thing for, for swimming like it does, it doesn’t affect that.

01:06:21:02 – 01:06:29:17
Dan LeFebvre
And so it’s, it’s, it goes back to that concept of what as we’re talking about, it, there’s so much more that, you know, it’s just it’s hard to wrap your head around.

01:06:29:18 – 01:06:48:00
Robert Wolf
And so it’s awful now, you know, ironically, the Olympics came up in a recent podcast too, and y can every day be like the Olympics? Yeah. Why can’t we do peace negotiations and tear off negotiations in the hot tub, or over find a nice table with a tablecloth and, you know, nice silverware? The the Olympics, exemplifies that.

01:06:48:00 – 01:07:06:14
Robert Wolf
It’s the one time where for the 2 or 3 weeks that the all these countries get together, they compete, they put all the bibs, all the politics, all the disagreements off you know, back. They leave it on the field or behind them and they compete. And it’s great sportsmanship. And why can’t, why can’t our politicians, why can’t our leaders, do that?

01:07:06:14 – 01:07:24:14
Robert Wolf
I mean, it’s such a such a great lesson. So I love the Olympics, not only because I love sports, but also just that concept of, worldwide, a worldwide peace and, the amicable feeling that you got, and I just love it. I mean, third place, person congratulating the first on the gold medal winner, that kind of thing.

01:07:24:17 – 01:07:44:16
Robert Wolf
Arm in arm in arm, holding our flags. Just the fact, you know, we’re talking about kneeling and and, during, it’s not a big thing lightly, thank God. But kneeling or not respecting the national anthem, my mom and dad would spit in those people. They would be. How dare you? You know, we we were barely allowed to practice what we want in a free country.

01:07:44:16 – 01:08:04:15
Robert Wolf
How dare you do that in this country? And they would, think. I mean, they got to their dad, but they. I got the narrative experience, the the the people kneeling and and not respecting the flag, multi-millionaires, people that are privileged, privileged enough and talented enough, and marketable enough to to be in sports and make lots of money, be very popular.

01:08:04:15 – 01:08:24:06
Robert Wolf
And when they do that, it’s it just doesn’t hurt the snarling. And so those kind of things, that’s what we’re battling here. You know, we got to respect our country and our freedoms, and our luck and realize that what happened to my dad could happen to any one of us. Could be a bad neighbor. Bad local government, federal government, foreign government, natural disaster, bad business deal.

01:08:24:06 – 01:08:39:07
Robert Wolf
Whatever it is could happen to us where we’re on the run not knowing where your next meal is. So not only are we going to sleep, not not knowing if you’re going to get a job or where you will, and you still you’re still, you don’t know. You can’t meet people. You can’t be around people that that spot you and say, oh, there’s a Jew.

01:08:39:07 – 01:08:47:24
Robert Wolf
There’s, Because you hear that. So there’s we talk about the light at the end of the tunnel. Even during escapes, there was no such thing.

01:08:47:27 – 01:09:11:23
Dan LeFebvre
If we go back to sunshine, the last generation in that movie is Adam, son Ivan. And he survives World War two. But then he joins the communists because they seem to be the liberators of the brutality of the Nazis had inflicted in Hungary. But then, as the Hungarian Revolution breaks out in 1956, in the movie we see Ivan, he realizes the communists are brutal and corrupt also.

01:09:12:00 – 01:09:38:14
Dan LeFebvre
And then at the very end of that movie, Ivan learns from an old letter from his great grandfather, who was at the very beginning of the movie. It’s it’s a long movie. But he finds out that in this letter, it’s the goal is not to be accepted by others. And in this letter, as you reads it, Ivan then has the inspiration to change his name from shores back to sunshine to embrace his Jewish ancestry.

01:09:38:16 – 01:09:58:14
Dan LeFebvre
And like a lot of the movie characters that we’ve talked about today, the Shine is high. Family from the movie sunshine are fictional. They’re not real. But of course, the unimaginable hardships that they faced in the movie were real events that generations of of your family faced as well. So just like Ivan took lessons from his family’s past at the end of the movie and build a better life for himself.

01:09:58:14 – 01:10:09:04
Dan LeFebvre
As we kind of start to wrap up our discussion today, if you took a look at your family’s history, what’s one lesson that you’ve learned that people today can apply to create a better future?

01:10:09:06 – 01:10:26:04
Robert Wolf
I have to see that movie sunshine. It sounds. I mean, it sounds like they stole my stole my own story. Now, would you remind me? Because I do want to, but yeah, my, my mom’s uncle, Zoltan was she. He converted. He was a communist because he wanted to. He wanted to survive. And, my mom probably hated it, but he was.

01:10:26:04 – 01:10:43:18
Robert Wolf
It helped him. He was a he was a monkey in the government and in the economic the economic plan after World War two. And, I read some of the notes, those turned up and I it was really and I don’t mean to get off the subject, but it was really poignant and depressing actually saying, well, what what do we do with our, our Jews?

01:10:43:25 – 01:11:03:10
Robert Wolf
And they are mostly farms and factories. I’m not going to talk about military. I’m talking about the civilian Jews because they couldn’t work. They couldn’t be educated. Finally, they let my dad get into medical school, 10%, quota, which is 10% quota, which is amazing that he even got in. But, so but he was a communist, so he, you know, resonates really, really well with whatever.

01:11:03:10 – 01:11:23:24
Robert Wolf
My mom and dad wouldn’t buy into it as we already mentioned, that, like I said, this country is amazing. Accountability is an important. It’s an important message. Don’t point at people. It just, you know, after 911, we had Islamophobia. After the coronavirus epidemic. We had the Asian eight. Now tober seventh. That’s the Jewish people.

01:11:23:24 – 01:11:39:12
Robert Wolf
Well, what do I have to do with Gaza? And October 7th, I support Israel, I support peace, and, that that that unnecessary. You know, you’re wasting your time, with these protests, these kids in Colombia, you don’t know how good you have it. You know, I, I think people would tell the end of Harvard or Columbia or privilege.

01:11:39:12 – 01:12:03:24
Robert Wolf
They would be. And, people that are doing this and and protesting and calling for the death of Israel and America, it’s just there’s no room for it. Not for me, not for you, and not in this country. And so I identify with the peaceful people, try to get a handle around, at least. Finally, they’re curtailing funding for universities everywhere I could in there, I’d be showing them and and suing them and suing them and and doing more talks in the area.

01:12:03:24 – 01:12:20:28
Robert Wolf
I mean, believe me, that’s all I’m doing anyway, but we need to, appreciate what we have. Accountability. And if you’re bored with what you have, you got if you’re complaining, change vectors. If you don’t like your job, change jobs, work part time, write a book. Everybody’s got a story. Write a poem, write an opera. Go to the library.

01:12:20:28 – 01:12:37:28
Robert Wolf
Go to the museum. Spend more time with your family. Give back to the community. It’s not just about food, shelter, clothing. Unlike for my mom and dad and, all the victims, it’s all food, shelter and clothing. But for now, for us, I put a little more into your life, put a more pot, and, love your neighbor, you know, and I don’t I don’t mean to be corny.

01:12:37:28 – 01:12:57:02
Robert Wolf
Bring a neighbor some macaroons or whatever. Invite them for the Seder. Just get to know them better and embrace them. And things. And things. Well, it all starts. Leadership starts from within. You know, you’re not going to be a leader if you’re not a good person. If you’re not. And I don’t mean no Hitler leader because he just led by charisma and, and, all his, his garbage is, propaganda.

01:12:57:04 – 01:13:14:01
Robert Wolf
But, you can lead by example, and it’s never too late to do the right thing. There’s no substitute for experience. I got a lot of, you know, the trend is your friend, you can learn something from every case, as we say in radiology. But as now, I’ve been on both sides of the needle. You can learn something from every person you know.

01:13:14:01 – 01:13:30:13
Robert Wolf
You can learn from every situation. And don’t forget that, don’t be that. That dead shark swim in the water. Just keep on moving. And if you don’t like what you’re doing and don’t don’t watch and complain, do something else. Life is short here. It’s our only commodity. It’s. You know, time is. Our time is our only commodity.

01:13:30:13 – 01:13:41:24
Robert Wolf
It’s not gold or silver stocks, real estate. It’s time. So use it. Use it wisely. Like my dad used to say. Enjoy every moment. And now I understand why.

01:13:41:26 – 01:14:02:10
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, I love that I love that, and that’s one thing as we’ve talked about you just looking back to some of the movies we talked about, the concept that I get is a lot of the things that led to like the atrocities Auschwitz that we talked about. It didn’t jump right to that. It was there were steps that they got there.

01:14:02:13 – 01:14:26:01
Dan LeFebvre
And although we’ve we talked mostly about historical events that took place around World War Two today, a lot of people have compared the current climate here in the United States as I’m recording this, similar to the rise of fascism that resulted in Nazi Germany. And I’m just curious, from your perspective, do you think there’s any truth to those comparisons, or is that kind of overblown just, extremism?

01:14:26:03 – 01:14:44:26
Robert Wolf
That’s such a great question. It’s hard to know. I hope not. That’s why there’s people like me trying to prevent that from happening. Call Congress, call you local government. What are you guys doing about anti-Semitism? I’m still doing it. I hate getting ghosted. That’s a big part of it being rejected. I don’t mind getting rejected like people that are apathetic, but too much apathy is going to be the danger to us.

01:14:44:26 – 01:15:04:25
Robert Wolf
And if the Jewish population doesn’t survive, you know, the LGBTQ, the criticize the Jewish and African-Americans, if you guys are next and and those those that glorify Hitler, you guys were next. You just don’t even realize it. So, now in some ways, yeah, in some countries worse than here. But even in America, in World War two, there was the rise of anti-Semitism.

01:15:04:25 – 01:15:23:16
Robert Wolf
And, fortunately not fascism. But until the guns are pointed at me, I feel relief. As long as the government and the local police are protecting us, then I feel safe. Whatever. If it starts to turn. And we talked about the your armored trucks and tanks going down the streets with the flags. If it ever comes to that, then I’d say, well, no, we’re doomed.

01:15:23:16 – 01:15:45:23
Robert Wolf
But, at least for the short term. But, hopefully that never happens. I can’t see that happening. But you never know. I mean, Australia and Canada, Europe, it’s still going on. So it’s up to the government, the people that are supposed to protect others. As Reagan said, that’s what government’s job is not to and not to, to to take from others or its or to use the people.

01:15:45:23 – 01:15:52:00
Robert Wolf
It’s, it’s I’m paraphrasing, but a government’s job is to protect us. Jewish. Christian doesn’t matter. Muslim.

01:15:52:03 – 01:15:58:26
Dan LeFebvre
We’re all human. We’re all. We’re all. What is it? The JFK quotes, we all share this planet together or something. Something along.

01:15:58:26 – 01:16:17:23
Robert Wolf
Those lines. Exactly. No. It’s true, it’s true. And we’re we’re getting beyond that. Why are the Soviets and the Americans get along in space stations and the moon or whatever, but they can’t get along and Mother Earth, right? I mean, so that’s, it’s another thing like the Olympics. Yeah. It doesn’t even make sense to me. And probably Antarctica and Greenland and everybody is going to set up whatever.

01:16:17:25 – 01:16:33:08
Robert Wolf
And that works for me. You know, it’s so how about annexing Canada? What about that kind of concept? I, you know, people are thinking out of the box lately and maybe I like it, maybe I don’t, but it’s worth a look because things have to change. Canada needs a security alternative to the US. On and on and on.

01:16:33:13 – 01:16:55:13
Robert Wolf
And maybe it’s good economically too, unless it’s come up. And I don’t know that it would be so complicated. And I know our resistance. The natives would be, Mexico. Maybe not so much, but that would be scary for me because I think it’s a it’s got it’s violent areas and etc.. But interestingly, a Jewish woman is the new president of Mexico, so and a Jewish lady is, is the new mayor of Beverly Hills.

01:16:55:13 – 01:17:15:18
Robert Wolf
So, that gives me hope. I think that’s great. I mean, I love California, and if it weren’t so expensive, I maybe I would live there instead of Florida. But, with who knows? And it’s one of the liberal for me, too. But, you know, it’s a great state and, many, many people. So it’s good to see that some people that are in leadership positions are going to be on the side of peace, not just because they’re Jewish.

01:17:15:18 – 01:17:29:03
Robert Wolf
That’s the side of peace. So they get it. They care. That’s another lesson. It’s good to care. It’s important to care if you, you’re doomed if you don’t. So whatever is your own life or the life of others? It’s important.

01:17:29:05 – 01:17:44:00
Dan LeFebvre
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show to chat about all these various movies. I know we’ve mentioned your book called Not a Real Enemy The True Story of the Hungarian Jewish Man’s Fight for freedom. We’ve mentioned a few times throughout our discussion today, but there’s so many things in the book that we didn’t even get a chance to talk about.

01:17:44:00 – 01:18:01:06
Dan LeFebvre
I’m going to add a link to it in the show notes, so anyone watching or listening to this right now can pick up their own copy. As I was reading your book, it really read like a movie and I can’t wait until it is turned into one. And since all movies have teasers and trailers before I let you go, can you share a teaser of your book for everyone watching this?

01:18:01:06 – 01:18:03:06
Dan LeFebvre
Now?

01:18:03:09 – 01:18:23:14
Robert Wolf
Wow. Yeah, yeah, from your mouth to God’s ears. Because, we we’ve been trying to clear some producers. Like I mentioned earlier, it’s a long shot, but a teaser. A man who escapes four times, I can’t imagine one escape. I mean, I’ve been reading books, guys escaping, and they’re not even Jewish. They’re. They’re prisoners of war from Poland or whatever, escaping from thousands of miles away.

01:18:23:16 – 01:18:40:12
Robert Wolf
And that’s like a one big, huge escape. But for escapes, 20 miracles in this book, like you as you know it. Or the way my dad got into medical school, cloak and dagger stories, arguing with armors and soldiers. That’s a scene I’d like to see, and winning the argument, but bluffing his way through it.

01:18:40:15 – 01:19:03:19
Robert Wolf
Of course, his first and last escape. But I think all of them would need to be included. Split second timing. The luck of God. What else? I mean, the fact that my dad was spoiled, but he was also beaten as a kid. It’s another interesting, interesting tidbit. Tidbit? So many, the way the table set, the way the way that you went from, being an upper middle says to starving and how life could change on a dime.

01:19:03:21 – 01:19:24:18
Robert Wolf
So many messages. Resilience, determination, hope, integrity, and ultimately redemption. So it’s it’s loaded. It’s packed with it’s history. It’s an adventure. It’s a biography. And, trials and tribulations. My dad and family and, must read and hopefully, more and more people read it. This is all I do is my charge is fighting anti-Semitism. You help me with that.

01:19:24:18 – 01:19:48:24
Robert Wolf
10% of my, I’m on socials across the board, so please, finally, Robert J. Wolfe, MD, or Google not relented me 10% of my proceeds henceforth and even when I’m gone and my trust are going to the Holocaust Museum in DC. So not only I’m educating in my own little corner, but I’m also contributing. And people that buy the book are contributing to education through the, to the mothership, as I call it, the U.S. Holocaust Museum in DC.

01:19:48:27 – 01:20:06:02
Robert Wolf
I’ve been fortunate enough to be there twice or two to the book signings. I could do that every day, educating kids and families about what’s going on now and then, genocide, etc.. So, it’s a must read. And, I hope that you do enjoy it and reach out to me. I do podcasts and and presentations programs.

01:20:06:02 – 01:20:09:03
Robert Wolf
Please help me fight antisemitism. Can’t do it alone.

01:20:09:05 – 01:20:16:27
Dan LeFebvre
I love education is is the key. Thank you so much for everything you do for educating. Thank you for for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.

01:20:17:00 – 01:20:24:22
Robert Wolf
Pleasure. I learned a lot today to.

Dan LeFebvre  03:32

We’ll start today by looking at the movie’s depiction of the Cuban missile crisis from an overall perspective. So if you were to give 13 days a letter grade for its historical accuracy, what would it get?

Joshua Donohue  03:46

I would say Thirteen Days gets a solid B, and I’ll get a little bit more into why that is towards the end of it. So the pot, the film itself is based on a book called The Kennedy tapes by Ernest May and Philip Zeller count, not to be confused with the actual book Thirteen Days by Robert Kennedy, who was obviously, you know, the President’s brother and had a major, major role during the missile crisis. So the book itself consists of the actual recorded conversations which took place throughout the course of the missile crisis. Bruce Greenwood, the lead actor, let’s say the lead actor, but the really lead character of JFK, gives an impressive performance as the president. Stephen Culp plays his brother, Robert Kennedy. I was particularly struck by his performance. It’s not easier for actors, I’m sure, to nail that Boston accent the way he does in the film, but he really does a great job there. And of course, the really the film central character, really the primary character. Of course, Kevin Costner plays Ken O’Donnell, and he’s always been good to me. I’ve always liked his work playing historical figures, though great Elliot Ness and. Untouchables, which is a great film, plays Jim Garrison, and obviously a JFK related film. JFK in 1991 he portrays Ken O’Donnell in the film, who is JFK is what’s termed Special Assistant. And throughout the crisis, the decision making was made from the White House and there from unbeknownst to those who were present, there were hidden tape recorders capturing all the deliberations, word for word. So before becoming president, JFK had made use of a recording device called the dictaphone of mostly for dictating letters and notes. So in the summer of 1962 shortly before the crisis, he would ask Secret Service agent Robert bauck to place concealed recording devices in the Cabinet Room, the Oval Office, the study, the library and the mansion, and without explaining why, bauck basically obtained these 10 Burke reel to reel tape recorders, these high quality machines for the period, from the Army Signal Corps. And he had placed these machines in the basement of the west wing in the White House, in the room reserved for storing private presidential files. So he would also place another in the basement of the Executive Mansion. So the West Wing machines were connected by these different wired microphones into the cabinet room, two in the Oval Office, those in the Cabinet Room on the outside wall were placed behind drapes. I mean, they were they were everywhere, and they will be activated by a switch that the President would activate, which will be easily mistaken for sort of a buzzer to buzz somebody into a room. So of the microphones in the Oval Office, his was, you know, an actual knee hole in the President’s desk, and the other concealed in a coffee table across the room. So this is like CIA, you know, type stuff we’re talking here. Each could be turned on and off with a single, sort of inconspicuous button. So this book is a collection of the transcripts that were based upon the actual conversations in the Oval Office. So like the film itself, the book sort of forces it to stay well within the confines of historical accuracy, since, again, it’s verbatim in many scenes, and every single tense moment is captured during these high level negotiations. And the film also does a great job with representing the characters and their individual personalities. And there are many of very strong personalities, as we see in the film. So of course, Ken O’Donnell and what JFK does and when he forms his cabinet, when he becomes president in 1960 and really takes the office in 1961 Ken O’Donnell is a special assistant. He was a bombardier in World War Two. Flew 30 missions in B, seventeens over Europe, Dean Rusk, the Secretary of State, was a colonel in World War Two serving in the Burma theater. You have the chairman of the army Joint Chiefs, Maxwell Taylor. He was commanded in general of the 100 and first airborne in World War Two. He’s mentioned in Vander brothers, as well as earlier in the war with the 82nd Airborne Division. He was involved in Normandy landings, operation, market garden. And really, all of them share Kennedy’s vision on a global perspective on World War Two and the lessons learned from that. And that’s why he surrounds himself with these advisors. Kennedy, of course, the hero of PT 109 when his PT boats ran by the Japanese destroyer and saves a number of his crew in the process. And McGeorge Bundy, JFK, National Security Advisor, an aide to re ramble Admiral Kirk. He was aboard the USS Augusta during the D Day landings in June 6, 1944 and another character which will all come familiar with, Curtis LeMay, who was Strategic Air Command head during the 1950s he commanded the three Oh, fifth bombardment group, the third Air Division, the European Theater of Operations. Also served in China, India, Burma theater, and later, of course, put in charge of B 29 courses against the Japanese later in the war. So all of these different individuals had complex personalities, different tolerances, different attitudes. And Kennedy was faced with all of this at once and again, the lessons learned by all of them. Through World War Two, they had been through Munich, Pearl Harbor, the battles against the acts, of course, Hitler and the Japanese and of course, Mussolini, they’d been through the early years of the Cold War in the Berlin Blockade, the Berlin heirloom, the Iron Curtain containment, the Korean War, McCarthyism, Suez, Hungary, Sputnik, the nuclear test that began during the 1950s so you’re set. The stage for you know this, you know these negotiations over these 13 days, and you have the right people making these decisions, and some other individuals not making the correct decisions. And Kennedy is, again, faced with a lot of this, and again, he navigates this pretty effective.

Dan LeFebvre  10:20

Yeah, it’s, it’s something that I don’t think we think about a lot when it comes to movies, is in the historical context of things you mentioning. You know, a lot of these people that had World War Two experience, even, and we’re talking about the Cold War, which I think we think a lot of, like, Okay, that was right after World War Two and stuff. But you also don’t seem to, at least, when I’m watching movie like this, you know, you know that there’s tensions in the air, but you don’t even think about the tensions that were there before any of this, these events were even happening in the movie. And you’re thinking of all these World War Two vets and they had to have things in the back of their mind that don’t are never going to be mentioned in the movie.

Joshua Donohue  11:00

Yeah, that’s the that’s one of the motivations why Kennedy surrounds himself. And what’s, what’s termed, the Irish mafia. You have McNamara, McGeorge, Bundy, Ken O’Donnell, you have these are his closest people have been with him throughout his tenure. You know, in politics Following the Second World War. So he trusts his advisors. He he knows he’s going to get sound advice from them. And you know, they have obviously the country’s best interest part. So it’s, it’s pretty remarkable, and considering the fact that not only is Kennedy dealing with, you know, what seemingly could be, you know, an all out nuclear war with the Soviet Union. But he’s has to deal with all these clashing personalities. And also, to mention the fact that, and you see it in the film too, Kennedy’s dealing with some elements. And of course, he has a major back injury as a result of the PT 109 incident. And he also has Addison’s disease, which he has been suffering from, really, since his youth. And what you see some of those scenes where he’s kind of limbering, he’s kind of tense a little bit, and strains at certain points. So I like those little details in the film as well. Well,

Dan LeFebvre  12:15

if we go back to the movie and kind of how it sets up the Cuban Missile Crisis, I know we mentioned it. We kind of talked a little bit about it already, but the way the movie sets up the version of this version of history is there’s an American YouTube spy plane that’s taking photos over Cuba, and these pictures then get analyzed at the very beginning of the movie to reveal that they’re SS, four sandal missiles. And in a briefing with President Kennedy, we find out that these missiles are capable of striking cities as far as Washington, DC, in just under five minutes time. So basically, at a moment’s notice, the Soviet Union can kill movie mentions like 80 million Americans, and the missiles will be installed within 10 to 14 days, meaning that there’s this deadline that the Americans figuring out how to deal with this situation. Is that a pretty good explanation of why the Cuban Missile Crisis was such a major crisis?

Joshua Donohue  13:10

Yeah, it really was, because it’s exactly what you just said. They had such a narrow window of time to figure out what they were going to do, and they knew that they were dealing with much longer missiles than what had been, and I’ll get into that in the moment, but yeah, that’s really the focus throughout the crisis is and Maxwell Taylor was really the one that pushes the issue, Mr. President, we are running out of time. The window of opportunity is closing, and you can just feel the depression. It’s just you can cut it with a knife. But the opening sequences of the film are particularly striking and giving you the viewer a preview of what nuclear Armageddon would look like with the actual test footage of these nuclear explosions, missiles launching in mass. And again, it’s downright frightening Armageddon, again, this is what it would look like, and we would only have mere minutes to prepare, if anything, for that, especially when you think not only this, but how far the technology had come since the end of World War Two, how much more destructive these weapons had come in a very short period of time. It really makes the bombs of Nagasaki and Hiroshima look small. And during the first part of October, President Kennedy starts to receive intelligence of unceasing streams of Soviet military equipment now reaching Cuba. And the CIA informs him that Cuba was now operating the latest MIG miles, the MiG 21 which were capable also of carrying nuclear weapons and nuclear arms, armed air to surface missiles. So on October 9, a US Navy reconnaissance plane would bring back evidence. Defense of Soviet cargo ships carrying il 28 bombers, which were twin engine bombers with a range of about 750 miles. So these il 28 were known to carry nuclear conventional ordinance and were actually of an old design for being phased out of the Soviet Air Force. But these were not the offensive weapons which Kennedy had warned in his public statements of September 4 and September 13, he and his advisors agreed, as mcgeorge bundy would put it, the surface to surface missiles would be the quote, unquote, turning point. So the news about the IL 28 did really it did cause him to authorize u2 flights over Cuba for nearly a month, Director of Central Intelligence John McComb had pressed for such flights to take place, fearing that, on the other hand, Dean Rusk would say and others would say the u2 would eventually be detected or shot down as over the Soviet Union in 1960 recalling, of course, the downing of American YouTube pilot Francis Gary Powers during the last year of President Dwight David Eisenhower’s administration. That particular incident had been a severe setback to between Eisenhower and Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev. So the fallout over the u2 downing in 1960 resulted in canceling the Paris summit, and they were scheduled to discuss the ongoing situation in a divided Germany, the possible possibility of an arms control agreement or a test ban treaty and a relaxation of tensions between the superpowers but the Gary Powers incident basically nixes the summit, and the very first meeting following the discovery of the of the missiles on the ground in Cuba from YouTube spy plane, would take place on Tuesday, October 16, around 1150 in the morning.

Dan LeFebvre  16:59

Okay, that was going to be one of my other questions. You talking about why they even had spy planes, YouTube planes, flying over Cuba to begin with. The movie doesn’t even talk about that. It’s like they’re just, yeah, they’re just doing it routine, right? Yeah.

Joshua Donohue  17:14

So yeah, is the YouTube I’ll get more into in a moment. It was, it was an important tool, and we had known that, once it was developed and put into service, that you needed to get, obviously, before the age of satellites spy satellites, you needed to get aerial reconnaissance from much higher altitudes, out of the range of surface to air missiles. So during that time it was important to get that kind of reconnaissance.

Dan LeFebvre  17:44

Yeah, that makes that makes sense. That makes sense. Now in the movie, when they find out about the missiles that are in Cuba, it kind of lays out the options that President Kennedy is given by his advisors in the room. So there’s three main options. One, they can do a surgical air strike to take out the missiles themselves. Two, they can do a larger air strike against all of the air defenses there. This being a strike in Cuba. Or three, they can do a ground invasion of Cuba, or maybe a combination of them, you have an air strike first to take out the missiles. They talk about all those kind of things, too. And then the invasion into Cuba to avoid any more missiles being brought in. And then later in the movie, the advisors kind of play out how they think everything’s going to happen. First, JFK would demand the Soviets remove the missiles. They’re going to refuse, of course. So then JFK is going to order the airstrike, followed by the invasion, there’s going to be fighting, but the US probably won’t have trouble overwhelming the Soviet forces there in Cuba to deactivate the missiles, but then that’s going to trigger something else, as the Soviets are going to retaliate, most likely in Berlin, is what they say in the movie. And then when the Soviets attack Berlin, the US is going to be forced to honor treaties, and that’s gonna how to basically going to trigger out all out war. Is the movie accurately portraying the options and then the possible chain of events that Kennedy was debating at the start of the Cuban Missile Crisis? Yeah,

Joshua Donohue  19:13

it really was. They. They were laying up every option imaginable. And in the book The Kennedy tapes in each conversation is going over every single scenario, every single possibility, and even with the photographs that the YouTube spy plane brings back the next day, October 15, experts at the CIA’s National Photographic Intelligence Center The npic, were looking over these photos from the YouTube’s flight from the previous day, and now seeing images of these missiles that were much longer than standard surface to air missiles. They began to leak through the files, as you see in their film, to try and compare what the watch which version of these missiles they have, and as they’re going through them the. Came up with the perfect match in the form of these medium range ballistic missiles, as you mentioned, the SS for sandal family. So as far as their the first negotiations as what they’re going to do, what options are going to have, Berlin was at the center of, really, every major decision in some way, shape or form. In every hypothetical we do this, what are they going to do in Berlin? We do this, what are they going to do in Berlin? So the situation there at the time was as tense as it was really following the end of the Second World War, the Berlin Wall have gone up in 61 effectively dividing the city in two. And these early meetings between Kennedys and advisors would set the tone for a very high level discussion that was going to take place over the next 13 days. So author lundahl, who was the head of the npic, would pass the news to CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia, with the news then reaching Robert McNamara, he then reaches and meets with the Joint Chiefs of Staff and dozens of lower level officials. The group then reviews plans to conduct massive airstrikes against targets in Cuba with a larger scale invasion of Cuba by the sea. So McGeorge Bundy, who was the National Security Advisor, would find out about these developments, and he gets a cryptic response following the discovery of the SS for saying those things we’ve been worrying about, quote, unquote, as it looks like we’ve really got something now. So Kennedy, at the time, was returning from a trip from New York State and arrived in Washington later that evening. So Bundy doesn’t reveal the news to him until the next day, a decision actually, which Kennedy supports. Bundy thought that he was going to need a good night’s sleep over the next number of days and weeks, because they were going to be some tense times over the next number of days and weeks. So when Kennedy was informed of the news, he has Bundy secretly round up officials later on that morning, not to arouse any suspicion, Kennedy resumes his normal schedule, meeting with NASA astronaut Raleigh Shira, followed by an appointment with Kenny O’Donnell in his office. And O’Donnell later recalls, quote, unquote, you still think the bus about Cuba is unimportant, and Archie Kennedy says that, and O’Donnell responds, absolutely. The voters won’t give a damn about Cuba. So Little does he know, following Sidney gravy or Marshall and Marshall Carter’s description of the missiles to Kennedy’s and advisors that first meeting you see in the film, he has a conversation with McGeorge Bundy and Robert McNamara on the subject of the YouTube flights, he states his case that he recommends additional flights over Cuba, at which point the President calls on Dean Rusk. And in the film, Dean Rusk gives his thoughts on the unfolding crisis and makes a quote saying, if you permit the introduction of to a Soviet satellite nation in our hemisphere, the diplomatic consequences will be too terrible to contemplate. The Russians are trying to show the world that they can do whatever they want, whenever they want, and we’re powerless to stop them. So if they succeed, at which point Attorney General Robert Kennedy, who was of course, the younger brother of the President makes the quote, it’ll be like Munich all over again. And Rusk replies, Yes, the aggressor will become more aggressive, and the Soviets will be emboldened to push us even harder. And if you look in the film at that very moment, there’s a look that RFK looks up and sees his brother, and he looks back at him. It’s a little moment, but there was a deeper meaning there. Munich would capture an even deeper meaning for the Kennedys, especially for their father, Joseph Kennedy senior, played a role in the event. Munich wasn’t a single event, as one might suggest, but a series of events following the Munich conference with Adolf Hitler in 1938 in order to appease Nazi Germany, they’re taking the Sudetenland. So Joseph Kennedy was the ambassador to Britain under FDR administration, both in cables to the State Department and in speeches and interviews, Kennedy backs Britain’s appeasement policy to Germany, and continued to do so well into World War Two, arguing that Britain had the right to conciliate with Hitler in light of these harsh peace treaties imposed upon Germany at the end of the First World War. So Kennedy, Joe Kennedy labels himself as an appeaser and an isolationist, and JFK would long carry this burden of this legacy. So going back to the proceedings, McNamara then begins his assessment of the findings and outlines of court his course of action. Comes up with two propositions. One is to conduct an airstrike against the missile installations, and he wants to do. So prior to the approximate time that the missiles will become operational. And he further explains that they do become operational before any proposed airstrike, that there is no guarantee that all the missile sites will be eliminated, and the missiles now will have a radius of between 600 to 1000 miles from Cuba. His second proposition is that United States commits itself to an airstrike in Cuba will not only be directed the missile sites, but also the airfields and any potential other aircraft which would pose a threat, also striking potential nuclear storage sites. And he then points out that this will be a large scale strike which estimates Cuban losses of between a few 102 into the 1000s. So he then he outlines a plan of invasion of both air and sea, followed by the air strikes, or following the air structure to say, he then defers to Maxwell Taylor, and Taylor agrees that a surprise attack, outlining all of the above and hitting these missile installations. He reiterates that timing is everything, and the missiles need to be hit

Dan LeFebvre  26:05

before they become out. Wow, yeah, they really did have a lot of different plans, a lot of what is scenarios. It sounds like they were working through a lot of those. Yeah.

Joshua Donohue  26:16

I mean, because they really had to figure out what the Soviet Union was going to do in every possible way. If we do this, what are they going to do? If we do that and do this, what are they going to do? And there’s just that. What if, almost like a like a war game, like scenario playing out in the old office? So he is, his advisors have quite a bit of work to do, but they do have one thing on their side they don’t know. They realize they know something that the Russians don’t think the Americans know yet, and that’s obviously going to play on much later on, Bill, well, you

Dan LeFebvre  26:52

mentioned, you mentioned Munich, and I appreciate you kind of explaining what that was. There’s another few things that the movie mentions here and there, and it kind of assumes that we already know, while Kennedy and his advisors are considering the options, it mentioned that the Bay of Pigs. And then there’s a mention of ortsack, which the movie also points out is just Castro spelled backwards, as if they weren’t. Didn’t even really hide that operation name very well. But can you explain how some of these other things that the movie is mentioning fit into the overall picture. So

Joshua Donohue  27:22

by around mid October of 1962 the Cold War had intensified in unforeseen ways, and Cuba was a long, virtually held colony of the United States, and had effectively moved into the Soviet orbit. You have the revolution in 1959 with the overthrow the dictator Fulgencio Batista, the emergence, of course, of dictator Fidel Castro as the leading figure. Of course, Prime Minister. He’s hand in hand with Khrushchev, and they are forging ties again, which still exists in some way, shape or form today. So this emergence of a new communist regime, becoming the first in the Western Hemisphere is a big deal, especially, of course, for the United States, with geopolitical sort of context, and the failed Bay of Pigs invasion, which takes takes place on april of 1961 had only exacerbated tensions between Russia and us, and brought Cuba even closer ties to Russia. And Kennedy has a memorable quote. He was a terrific speaker, and we’ll get to the brains behind that and the true center of it. But he has a quote from after the defeat of the Bay of Pigs, who says, There’s an old saying that victory has 100 fathers, but defeat is an orphan. And I just always latched onto that quote, because even in the face of defeat and just the political disaster, from, you know, from the outside in and with the inside out, from his political advisors, from people who, at the time, didn’t think Kennedy was up to the task of this. He was too young. He doesn’t have the experience. He’s too cocky, he’s arrogant, He’s immature. He was getting all these things thrown at him. So the Bay of Pigs affair had many consequences, which would loom over the missile crisis again, it damaged Kennedy standing among many political circles and beyond, Cuban exiles never quite forgave him for his decision not to reinforce the invasion by air, no support from the Air Force or the Navy. And there’s a moment where you see Bundy and Taylor and the other chiefs talking to Dean Acheson about the Munich effect as they’re walking out in the hallway, and whether he’s up to the task of handling this and a crisis of his magnitude, more or less, and in varying degrees, also the common vert among senior military officers, particularly in the Air Force, the Navy, as well as the CIA’s clan. Estein service awareness. So more closely consequence related to the affair was the development of the inner circle of Kennedy’s advisors of the Animus against Castro, JFK and especially Bobby. Kennedy longed for some redeeming opportunity to get back for the failed Bay of Pigs. And this was also a time where Kennedy authorizes the development of Special Warfare operations, the Green Berets, the Navy SEALs, these groups meant to be deployed to hot spots all over the world at a moment’s notice. So Kennedy would organize a new set of covert operations against Astro called Operation mongoose, which was meant to destabilize the Castro regime by launching operations inside of Cuba to undermine his position and with the goal of removal of power. So some even looked to assassinate Castro under constant Badr by Bobby Kennedy the CIA came up with a number of what veteran Intelligence Officer Richard Helms term nutty schemes. And this explains that tense meeting that Bobby’s presiding over where you say, no, no, no, no, we need to come up with more options. And demanding to come up with more ideas. And McCone, the CIA director, calls out Bobby Kennedy, and says to him, Well, you really weren’t saying all these options when you’re at the CIA and with, you know, Al’s there telling you, okay, we got to get cast around and get rid of him now. So he has that movie, sits down and sort of throws his glasses down, and he just doesn’t even know what to say at that point. So Taylor gives him that surprise look, as you see in the film, sits down, you know, throws his glasses and kind of is just kind of exhausted at that point. So Maxwell Taylor then explains to him and the chiefs and concurs with McNamara’s assessment that the importance of destroying the missiles, because when they come operational, is important before they must prove a full scale invasion of Cuba eight days later, and also you start to hear the first chimings of suggesting a blockade or a quarantine of the island, which will, of course, be the primary strategy, which plays out,

Dan LeFebvre  32:10

yeah, and we’ll get we’ll get to that in a little bit. But in the movies timeline, you mentioned this briefly, and the Americans know about the missiles, but then when JFK meets with the Russian diplomat, he doesn’t let on how much the Americans actually know. And then we see that the Soviets just flat out deny there being missiles in Cuba. They insist that presence in Cuba is for defensive purposes only. Is it true that the Soviets were denying missiles in Cuba when the Americans knew that they had it, and we could see it well. In the movie, we can see them actually actively working on setting them up. Yeah,

Joshua Donohue  32:46

yeah, that’s absolutely true. And this really the decision, as I mentioned earlier, from the get go, was made to keep President Kennedy’s schedule as normal and routine as possible in order to prevent the media, excuse me, really to causing a public panic across the nation. So during that first meeting, Dean Rusk will bring up the issue with Kennedy’s meeting with Soviet Ambassador Andrei greeco’s request to see Kennedy on Thursday, October 18, Rusk quote to the president is, it may be some interest to know what he says, if he even says anything. So there is that idea of going into this meeting, do not let on at all that we know what’s going on there. We want to sort of play this as a chess game, as the really the Cold War, for the most part, is so Russ will also bring up another key issue, which will come into play later on, uh, during the later phases of the crisis. Maxwell Taylor brings it up on on a meeting in October 18. He suggests that there would be advantages in not disclosing American knowledge of the missiles in order to get promico to basically lie and keep up a pattern of denial. So Russ then suggests that Kennedy words it more in terms of a sort of deep disturbance about the provocation in Cuba, quote, unquote. And then adds that Ambassador to Brennan say that there weren’t any offensive weapons in Cuba, but even debris. And may not know either. So Robert Kennedy then brings up the subject of the United Nation, of the United States missiles in Turkey and JFK asked, How many are there? Are in George Bundy response, 15, plus nuclear aircraft and Turkey. And the issue of the Jupiter missiles, there will also be a major bargaining chip, which will come out through that throughout the proceedings. So the meeting between Kennedy and Foreign Minister Andre Gromyko takes place at 5pm on the 18th of October. The meeting lasts until about 7:15pm Gromyko emphasizes the need to settle the Berlin issue, and then repeats his promise the Soviets would do nothing before the November elections the United States. States warning that they could take possible steps at this point to bring the bring the Berlin problem to a conclusion, whatever that meant, and then describe the Western presence in Berlin as a sort of rotten truth that must be pulled out. So Gromyko then complains that the US threats against Cuba and the Soviet Union was only that the Soviets were only training the Cubans and use of defensive weapons, as you mentioned. So the Soviet delegation then responds by saying, Are you sure the President wants more of the policy of the Soviet Union always has and always will be directed at strengthening peace, the elimination of differences in relations between all countries, first of all, the relations between the USSR and the United States. And of course, the Soviet Union wants to have peace and friendship for all mankind. So in regards to the Cuban issue, it’s not been invented by the Soviet Union. It’s regards to the signing of the German peace treaty, a normalization of relations in West Berlin in regards to all other issues in two separate issues for each country, and the policy is peace, friendship and the removing of differences by peaceful means. So Kennedy then recalls his advisors back to the White House, and in another example of the Kennedy administration and their hopes of keeping up with business as usual under that guise, they do not hold the meeting in the West Wing of the White House, since that meeting would be taking place after hours. This was done out of fear that reporters would notice and suspect that something was off. So to the press and the public United States of it, as you said, the President was scheduled to fly to Cleveland on the 19th and then to Illinois for speeches and activities in Springfield and Chicago. You see the meeting with Mayor Daley there. And of course, in the film, Ken O’Donnell tells Pierre Salinger the President is going to have a cold the next day, and O’Donnell then is feeling the pressure from the press contact that you see as well, where he confronts him in the elevator and he rips the door open and basically backs him into a corner and says, you know, you’re not going to release that. No way. And there must have been that pressure in the media to, you know, keep basically, keep shut. Because if you you know, you know, made an enemy, and within the political circle in Kennedy’s administration, your career might be in jeopardy. I’m curious

Dan LeFebvre  37:24

about the element of speaking publicly about it, because that is something that as I was watching the movie, it seems like JFK and his inner circle are really debating what to do, which makes sense. You know, you have all these deliberations over what you’re going to do. But what was interesting to me is in the movie, it seems like he’s going to announce the decision he’s going to make publicly on TV and radio, and it almost seems to imply that the people who are closest to him that he’s been conferring with also don’t know about the decision he’s going to make until They see it publicly, as everybody else does, is it true that Kennedy made this decision and then revealed it publicly for the first time?

Joshua Donohue  38:08

Yeah, he what’s interesting about how he sort of, he’s almost absorbing everything. He’s not making concrete decisions on anything. He’s hearing arguments from one side and the other, and just back and forth, back and forth. The one particular scene as I mentioned, Curtis LeMay. And this actually takes place in the book. It’s recorded very and they really do a great job of it in the film, or JFK, and LeMay have that famous exchange where he meets with the Joint Chiefs of Staff on the 19th of October, and LeMay makes the quote, you’re in a pretty bad fix here, Mr. President. And then Kennedy does that slow turn. He goes, what’d you say? He goes, you’re in a pretty bad fix. And Kennedy responds, well, just in case you didn’t know you’re in it with me, that that actually did happen. So LeMay, his attitude was, you know that bomb them back to the Stone Age mentality, let’s attack them now. The Russians aren’t going to do anything. And Kennedy, and there’s that one scene where before that, where O’Donnell basically shields Kennedy from LeMay, it gives him that real stern look. So the decision to have the pre the TV announcement is a major deal, because at that point, this is really going to be where we have all of this information. We are going to let the world know about it. And this is where, again, things start to get pretty interesting, because when it comes to dictating cold war policy and how both the United States and the Soviet Union will return, respond and interpret to each other’s actions, the term blockade does imply, indeed an act of. War. And on the late evening of Thursday the 18th, he confers with McNamara, Gil Patrick Taylor, McGeorge Bundy and others his brother Ted Sorensen. And having the the awareness of what is going to happen, Kennedy will speak to the nation at 7:30pm on the 22nd of October 1962 so having long, long lived with the prospect and the knowledge of nuclear war and its unthinkable consequences, Americans reacted to Kennedy’s words with alarm, but not panic. Everywhere families were you see in the film stocking up on food, gasoline, other emergency supplies I was not around during this time. My father tells me about it. He remind me that the duck and cover days where American school children were subject to these nuclear drills, diving up to deaths in the classrooms in the event of an exchange, reservists were being prepared for call ups in homes and in bars, television watchers saw the footage of airplanes taking off, troop trains moving tanks from soldiers. So the atmosphere of pension was it was pervasive, and all through the night, analysts of the National Photographic interpretation center and elsewhere in the intelligence community actually anxiously await the scrutinized intelligence indicator of any Soviet military activity in response to Kennedy’s speech. Now, while they saw Soviet and Cuban forces being brought up to a higher state of readiness, they detected no real, apparent developments in the field preparing for any type of large scale move against Berlin, or, say, Turkey, for example. So the blockade is announced, and with it in place, the Russian vessels are now underway and under heavy surveillance by the US Navy, with their aerial and seaborn assets now gathering intelligence. So Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev had ordered his missile ship carrying vessels to turn around no more than 24 hours before the morning of October 23 and after Kennedy gives his nationwide announcement that the discovery of missiles in Cuba and the imposition of a quarantine around the island, according to Soviet documents and shipping records. Khrushchev only permits five ships already close to Cuba to proceed. So since these ships were only a few hours from sailing time to the closest Cuban port, there was little risk that they would be intercepted by warships. So you have the alexandrovsk carry nuclear warheads to Cuba, its escort ship, the element risks, which arrives in the port of La Isabella, adorned on the october 23 three other ships, the David north, the Dubno and the Nikolay, Soviet leader, ordered four submarines into The area with nuclear torpedoes to remain in the vicinity of the quarantine line. Ships and oil tankers carrying non military equipment were also authorized to head to Cuba. So the closest ships to the quarantine line the kimosk and the Gagarin, as McNamara points out, according to Bobby Kennedy, the US Navy makes contact with both ships at 1030 and 11am Washington time on the 24

Dan LeFebvre  43:28

Okay, so just because the movie does mention briefly that it’s a quarantine, but it can’t call it a blockade, because blockade would be an act of war, but everybody really knew what was going on? Would that be a fair interpretation at

Joshua Donohue  43:44

this point? And what’s the, what’s the thing too, that there’s the, there’s so much tension, and obviously you had the language barrier. So any sort of miscalculation, misstep, you know, any kind of action that may be perceived as an act of war. I mean, there are instances with the Russian summaries where one of the captains lost contact with his communique in Moscow and thought world war three was starting. Didn’t know what to do. One of his subordinates actually made him surface and say, Okay, we need to really think we really want to launch these missiles right now. That is a theme that plays out before the missile crisis and after. In the decades after that, there are so many times throughout the the course of the crisis where there are nuclear accidents, aircraft that are carrying nuclear weapons. They’re, you know, disintegrating in the sky. The nuclear weapons are being scattered all over the place. So we still can find today. I know there’s a, I think, a hydrogen bomb that’s still buried in the mud off the coast of Georgia some point there that was lost, I think by, I think a B 52 or B 47 so when talking about the I would say the most iconic quote from the Cuban Missile Crisis appears in a Saturday evening. Post retrospective in the weeks afterward, describing the confrontation between the blockade line between US warships and the missile carrying freighters. Rusk will say, on october 24 rival the eyeball, and I think the other fellow just blinked.

Dan LeFebvre  45:20

It’s just again, it’s his historically, it’s a different mindset of of times where it’s just things are so, I mean, they call it a crisis, for a reason, but just to think of how many times things can go wrong and and it starts. I mean, once it starts, it starts right? I mean, there’s,

Joshua Donohue  45:46

you know, Kennedy makes the the quotes that you know, there’s, there’s always gonna be some dumb bastard that doesn’t get the message or the or the order, and, and that’s so that’s true. You figure, um LeMay will be this type of person that the Joint Chiefs seem to have their own agenda, that they’re walking down the hallway saying, you know, these damn Kennedys, they don’t know what they’re doing. We need to do something fast before this gets out of control. So you’re trying to control people who want to do something completely the opposite of what you’re trying to do, and to maintain that posture and that discipline statesmanship, of negotiation, the art of negotiation, I would say, between the superpowers, is really born out of these 13 days. Because if you put Kennedy and Khrushchev side by side, they are polar opposites in every which way shape form, and to be able to go to find a middle ground is it would seem almost impossible, but this would obviously play out further as Kennedy makes their first major move. And I’ll sort of give it a little bit of a hint of what comes later on. It’s Ted Sorensen, and he is really the point man. He’s not really essential character in the film itself. You do see him here and there. You know he has some scenes where he interacts with Kennedy, but by all accounts, his role in the missile crisis was much more pronounced than it was in the film. So he’s actually the one that comes up with both versions of the speech, what quarantine blockades gonna look like, or what invasion and airstrikes gonna look like. And he has that great quote where he says, I couldn’t do the other one. I simply could not come up with it. And he was only able to do the speech that was only geared towards, okay, we’re gonna try and use most diplomatic way and peaceful way possible. You know, Sorensen couldn’t, couldn’t bring himself to come up with the worst version.

Dan LeFebvre  47:52

Well, earlier, we talked briefly about the Soviets denying the existence of missiles, and that topic comes back up after the speech, it’s JFK has made this public speech. So it’s it’s public what’s going on there. But in the UN, the ambassador Zorin from the Soviet Union tells the UN that the US is pushing the world to the brink of war, but they have no proof of the missiles that they claim are there. And then there’s all this tension from the American side because they think Adlai Stevenson, the American ambassador, isn’t going to be able to stand up to Zoran. And there’s all this extra tension that the movie adds there because of that. But then he does. He stands up to Zorin in the movie, and then he shows the photos of the missile and missiles in Cuba that prove to the UN that the Soviet Union is escalating the tensions, not the US. And the way that this plays out in the movie, it seems to catch the Soviets off guard, and then it almost seems to turn the pressure of the world’s nations that look like they were more on the US, because everybody thought the US was was doing this, and then it seems to shift it over to the Soviet Union. Was there really a pivotal moment like this that we see in the movie?

Joshua Donohue  49:04

Yeah. And another important scene is where you see President Kennedy talking, talking about the the delegation, the Organization of American States, that that was a particularly important bill. They he needed their support. Unilateral. He wanted unanimous. He makes it well known. I want a unanimous decision. He wants the entire support of the OAS. And this part is where the US has the Soviets really, more or less painted into a corner. Because even before this, we see another important scene the film, which does take place, it doesn’t happen in real life, where we see Ken O’Donnell speak to Commander William Ecker of the US Navy, where they had to see where they fly the two at the Crusader low level mission, the photo reconnaissance over the island. So Ecker was the commanding officer of photo reconnaissance of. Squad in 62 so because of the top secret nature of their mission, Eckers unit was ordered not to wear any insignia on the flight suit. Doesn’t even have his name tag on the on the top of his of his pockets. So interesting piece of trivia for the film. The actor who plays echo in the film is played by the late actor Christopher Lawford. So Lawford should sound familiar. He was the son of Peter Lawford of the Rat Pack. Of course, he was married to Patricia Pat Kennedy, who was JFK and RFK sister. So he’s the actual nephew of John Kennedy and Robert Kennedy. So the scene where we have Ecker and his wing may Lieutenant Bruce will Helmi take off on their RFA crusaders on october 23 1962 conducting the first low level reconnaissance flight over Cuba. As you see in the film, their aircraft take a series of photographs over one of the missile sites. So Ecker says the movie took some minor liberties about the truth of his mission. As you see, they fly over and the Cubans throw up a pretty heavy volume of fire. He takes a couple of shots sparrows. They were just sparrows, right? Yeah, those are sparrows. He goes, sorry, guys, this is the way it is, right. So, and there’s the scene where, and they there is some truth, where Ecker says the moment of his adventure was depicted pretty accurately in the film, his top secret debriefing, and the round table where He’s escorted immediately after he lands to go talk to LeMay, they didn’t even let him get out of the plane. They whisked him by limousine to the Pentagon room, to the tank, as it was called. Were recalling that Curtis LeMay, the head, of course, the of the former strategic of the head of the Strategic Air Command 1950s he was upset that, basically, the the Navy had upstaged the Air Force in obtaining these critical photos, and later, when Kennedy awards Ecker squadron with a Presidential Citation, LeMay was reported to be in the back of a limousine pouting and chopping on his cigar and refusing to participate. So that was that was what ecker’s version of it was, but that mission that takes place over Cuba was was significant at the end of the day, it gives Ambassador Ali Stevenson the photographs that he will use taken by Ecker at the United Nations as proof that the USSR has installed nuclear ballistic missiles in Cuba, and this would eventually turn opinion against the Soviet Union. So Edward Martin, who is the Secretary, Assistant Secretary of State of American Inter American Affairs, then seeks a resolution and support the Organization of American States. Adley Stevenson lays the matter before the UN Security Council, the ships of the naval quarantine line are now in place around Cuba. Soviet freighters bound for Cuba are now bringing supplies. Are now stopping dead of the motor, as you see in the film. But the oil tanker Bucharest continues towards Cuba, and in the evening, Robert Kennedy meets with Ambassador debride in the Soviet embassy. So talking about Adley Stevenson, he literally calls himself out as a coward in the beginning of the film. Remember, he kind of goes completely the opposite and says, Well, we should offer a deal to end the crisis. And Kennedy says, Oh no, there’s no way we can do that. So we later see him at a sort of political mixer where he talks to Ed O’Donnell and then later has a conversation about early in the evening and says, I basically call myself a coward in front of the whole room today. So from the outset, Stevenson really establishes himself as the most consequential and unacknowledged and unappreciated advisor. There were people simply saying, He’s not up to the past. We need to get somebody else there. Yeah, Bobby Kennedy on the phone saying, Okay, we’re gonna get ready to basically come out, take the cane and yank him off the stage and get somebody else up there to take over for him. So he had a reputation of preferring to concede rather than to confront. In the first days of the crisis, you know, he was worried that his man in New York wasn’t up to the test. And on Thursday, October 25 on the 10th day of the crisis, Stevenson showed that he had the stuff, more sterner stuff than JFK initially thought. And the former two time presidential candidate had effectively dressed down valerian Zorin, Soviet ambassador and UN Security Council meeting as the Americans watched on television, Stevenson listened passively. And that’s there’s that tension there. Come on. Come on. Add the Come on. And the Soviet Ambassador can continues to lace into the United States over and over again, and was finally his turn to speak to. He dispensed with the standard diplomatic niceties. He instead went immediately for the jugular. I want to say to you, Mr. Zoran, I do not have your town for obfuscation or distortion, confusing language and your double talk. I must confess to you that I’m glad I do not. And Stevenson went on to denounce the Russians for lying, treating Zorin in a way that Ambassador likened to the American prosecutor, brow beating a defendant. And then said, All right, sir, let me ask you one simple question, Ambassador, Zorin, do you deny that the USSR has placed medium, intermediate range missiles on the island of Cuba? Yes or no? Don’t wait for the translation, yes or no. So there’s that real, you know, instant there where the room, the room is watching. They cheer. They say, Yeah, way to go. Adley and said, you can answer yes or no. You’ve denied they exist. I want to understand you correctly. I prepared a way for my answer until hell freezes over, and it’s your decision. So with Zorin still continuing to refuse to answer, Stephen Stevenson and his aides then proceed to put up Eckers photos of the missiles in Cuba, the delegates in the room are also the Russians are saying, oh my goodness, what’s going on they, you know. And who knows that? They even are aware of it, you know. So that the Khrushchev would sort of hang a lot of his visors out to dry, not giving the whole picture what’s going on. So the mild mannered Stevenson had an enormous political and diplomatic victory The United States,

Dan LeFebvre  56:30

even just just the timing of it, you know, happening in the 60s. It’s not like, it’s not like Word would travel as fast as it does now, anyway. So you know, even if they weren’t hiding something, or that could just be the time it takes for things to travel, they might not have known.

Joshua Donohue  56:50

Yeah, I mean, like I said, that’s the thing that’s probably the most was, the most alarming is that we don’t live in an age like we do now, with you have everything the world that the palm of your hand, and you can communicate anywhere in the world, basically at a moment’s notice. There is still delays, and there’s that back and forth. We don’t know how the Russians are gonna interpret this, you know, this conversation, or this move, and vice versa. So there’s all these different what ifs and different scenarios. But I think Kennedy, really, this is the point where we start to see, okay, we might have a real solid plan here that’s going to actually work without, you know, World War Three breaking out. And I think that’s just the one of the key points is how Stevenson is just waiting. He’s waiting. He’s waiting, just letting them go through their whole diatribe about how we’re escalating tensions and we’re putting the world at risk of nuclear war, and then just here’s the evidence, here’s the proof, and we’re going to be doing this for a little bit. And I like how he defers to the other. I forget which leader it was, but I think it was one of the it was Panama. Oh yeah, yeah. It says, No, I give up all my time to the

Dan LeFebvre  58:07

ambassador. I yield my time back to the US. Okay,

Joshua Donohue  58:10

love that. I absolutely love it. I

Dan LeFebvre  58:12

was speaking of the communications and such. And in the movie, there’s something that kind of new and unexpected happens around this point, and movie only really mentions His name is John in the dialog. I looked at the casting. I think they were talking about John scali. He’s a ABC News correspondent. He arrives at the White House now in the movie, and he’s telling the President and his advisors that he has a source named Alexander foeman. And according to scali, this guy, foeman knows the Soviet Premier Khrushchev personally, so JFK tasks Ken O’Donnell to going to the FBI validating this story. He’s not able to find definitive proof in the few hours that he has everything’s under a time crunch here, but O’Donnell tells President Kennedy of a possible connection between foeman and Khrushchev from 1941 as war buddies. So that’s enough. Scali meets with fomen and tells him that the American government is open to guaranteeing that they will not invade Cuba in exchange for the missiles being dismantled. But then the two conditions that are that the UN has to is that the UN has to inspect the missiles, not just taking their word for it to prove that they’ve been dismantled. And then the deal has to be made in 48 hours. That’s the other part of the deal. And then soon after this, we see that, you know, a 10 page letter being sent from Khrushchev to Kennedy seems to be going around all of the official communication channels that’s going on behind the scenes here. And in that letter, he says that he’ll remove the missiles in exchange for the no invasion pledge. And so just have me curious about this communication going on behind the scenes. We’re talking about this communication going on in different time period. Did that sort of communication between Khrushchev and Kennedy actually happened the way we see in the

Joshua Donohue  59:58

movie? Yeah. Yeah. It did. And it’s interesting, because there’s this whole other dynamic. It’s the world Island streets of Washington, DC. It’s the world outside the White House and all the major decision making, walking to into a restaurant with with, you know, a Soviet diplomat. So journalists at the time lived for scoops being the first to break a major news story is the ticket to journalistic fortune and fame. And if you’re a journalist covering the biggest story of your lifetime and suddenly become a participant, do you tell the world what you’ve learned, or do you sit on it? So ABC News diplomatic correspondent John Sculley found himself in such a predicament on Friday the 26th of October 1962 on the 11th day. So scali got a call shortly after noon time from Alexander foeman. And foeman was officially a diplomatic counselor at the Soviet embassy in Washington. His real job, though, was a KGB station chief in Washington. So his given name was Alexander beckslaw, and he had to also also run Klaus Fuchs and the Rosenberg spy ring. So he wanted to have lunch with Scally, and he was just finishing a baloney sandwich. She was not inclined to eat anymore, but the urgency that he detected from Bowman’s voice persuaded him that food wasn’t the point of the phone call. So he agrees to meet at the occidental restaurant located just a few blocks from the White House. So scholarly immediately returns to his office at the State Department in the press room, and jots a memo, short memo summarizing what Foreman had told him he gave his the memo to Roger Hillsman, the director of the State Department, Bureau of Intelligence for research. Hillsman immediately recognized it as, as you know, something of significance. Then passes along to Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, and then the secretary turns it on to JFK and Robert McNamara. So Foreman’s offer to scali came now as JFK was becoming increasingly pessimistic about the direction of the crisis and where it was headed. So the Soviet ships carrying missile parts had turned back, but there were still missiles in Cuba. More would become operational every single day. So the morning of the X com meeting, he had told his advisors the missile would come not only if the United States invaded Cuba or offered to trade removal of the missiles of something that the Soviets wanted. Now, with Fauci overture, he now had a possible way out of the crisis. So after scali finishes his appearance on ABC News at Six o’clock pm network broadcast, he doesn’t mention anything about the lunch with fallen he was summoned to the State Department and ushered into Dean rusk’s office. Secretary pulled out a yellow sheet of legal sized paper out of his pocket and began reading the gist of the message. That was that scali should tell fomen that he had been of the highest officials of the state government the United States, that the administration saw possibilities in his offer. So scali immediately arranges to meet Fauci at the coffee shop at the Staller Hotel on Statler Hotel, I should say, half a block away from the Soviet embassy. He would pass along the message, and after being convinced that scarly was leveling him, foeman had picked up the 36 cab fare for two cups of coffee that they ordered, and then the cashier continued talking to a friend, rather than take the payment, the Soviet spy chief stopped a $5 bill on the counter and just disappeared. So it’s just like I said, there’s this whole underworld out there in Washington, DC probably still exists where there’s just, there’s negotiations going on behind the scenes, and as scholarly relays his message to fallen. The White House was now receiving a long and emotional letter from Nikita Khrushchev and confirming that the proposal of fallen that had floated in the first place to scholarly so the letter was delivered to the US Embassy in Moscow around 9:43am and that morning Washington time, it had taken more than 11 hours to translate the letter, and had the State Department brought it to the White House, and again, Khrushchev’s indignant defense of why the Soviet Union had sided with Cuba and Khrushchev then shifts gears and then actually puts an offer on a table. So Kennedy is an advisors infer, it really inferred from Khrushchev’s and Foreman’s letter and their overtures that the Soviets were making a coordinated effort at this point to extend an olive branch. In fact, foreman was really, you know, trying to initiate different developments and really hoping that this was going to break somehow. And. JFK and his advisors were becoming more hopeful that a political resolution, a peaceful resolution, was now possible. Cuban leader Fidel Castro was becoming increasingly convinced that a US innovation was imminent, and he had no intention of backing down from the imperialists without inflicting major pain in return. And then he sends a letter to Khrushchev, saying, we need to attack the United States right now, first strike. And however harsh or terrible, terrible solution, there would be no other. So Castro also orders human forces to fire on any US aircraft which will enter Cubans airspace, which we would see play out.

Dan LeFebvre  1:05:43

You have all the all of these things going on in the movie. Does make a good point. There was a, I don’t remember the exact line of dialog. There was something in there talking about how one of the advisors mentions to JFK how the Soviets lied about the missiles. So what about this letter? How do we know that this isn’t just another Rouge they’re trying to stall for time because, again, they’re, they know that they’re building these missiles, and they’re, you know, the time is until these are ready for launch. So maybe they are just stalling for time. Do we know now of ways that Kennedy was able to authenticate this letter and or was he just mostly working off faith that this was real? I

Joshua Donohue  1:06:17

think it was a little bit of both. I think by this point, you know, Kennedy was again at the point of frustration. I think we start to sort of see his line of thinking sort of said, okay, you know what? We might need to start considering that now that this window of time is closing, we’re not sure what’s going to happen. So this was a sort of glimmer of hope that I think Kennedy was really looking for at the end of the day, he, you know, he was just waiting for a any glimmer of UN even they pushed that issue throughout the film. And even Bobby Kennedy, as I mentioned earlier, they’re trying to push every single diplomatic solution available. And that this letter comes across in the course, you know, the relationship there with Khrushchev, and Khrushchev response back, we now can see that Kennedy is able to effectively reach out to Khrushchev. It’s almost as if you’re you’re dictating policy by doing things. So you know, by this move, you mean this, by doing that move, you mean that. So all of these, as I mentioned earlier, interpretation of things, any kind of miscalculation, everything was so just razor thin as far as the margin of error and the negotiations that were going on, as I mentioned, Castro’s telegram to Khrushchev. Kennedy knew nothing about this. And as as far as he could tell that Friday night, he now had a way out of the crisis that now served us interests. And what he would discover when he awoke the next morning was that the crisis would enter its most dangerous day, the 27th which was Black Saturday, and the decisions that he and Khrushchev made, more importantly, the events that neither men had anticipated more control, would determine whether the world would go to the brink, go go to war, over the over the nuclear break effect.

Dan LeFebvre  1:08:18

Wait, you mentioned Saturday, the 27th and that’s about where we’re at in the timeline of the movie. And as if things were already aren’t escalated tensions, they escalate once again when the Americans get confirmation that the Soviets have deployed what they call frogs, keyboard short range tactical nukes, and the belief is that there might be using this against an invasion force. They assume the US is going to invade Cuba, and so this is the defensive there. But meanwhile, we also see that the according to the movie, at least the Soviets, have stepped up their work on installing the missiles. The first few have become operational already, and then the rest are going to be done within 36 hours. So according to the movie, President Kennedy seems like there’s no other choice, so he orders the airstrike to take place on Monday morning, followed by the invasion. And that means they only have a few hours left if they hope to reach a diplomatic solution. Did Kennedy actually order the airstrike and invasion like we see in the movie?

Joshua Donohue  1:09:19

Yeah, as I said, you know, there was that other there was the one part that was, your Kennedy was okay. There’s a little bit of hope for a peaceful solution to this. But I can’t take my finger off the other option, which is, you know, committing to total release that on october 27 Kennedy would approve McNamara’s suggestion, calling into active duty 24 Air Reserve squadrons of troop carrier aircraft. These aircraft made it possible to airlift the first wave of the airborne invasion, considering about 34,800 paratroopers from Port Bragg and Fort Campbell, they will be followed by surface movement of the first Armored Division. 10 and elements of two infantry divisions designated for further reinforcement if necessary. So what was called out plan 314 or operations. Plan 314 calls for the deliberate and coordinated invasion of Cuba, with the Marines landing on eastern Cuba, or near Guantanamo, and the 18th Air Corps seizing airfields in and around Havana. And the amphibious phase of the operation will be controlled by headquarters second fleet, with joint task force 122, so once these initial landings would be completed, headquarters the 18th Air Corps and the would become a JTF driven Task Force Cuba to control all further operations from that point on, to really facilitate the expected popular uprising against Castro, a separate joint unconventional warfare task force in the Atlantic would deploy Special Forces and other elements into Cuba, as I mentioned, This was the era, of course, you know, they had the John F Kennedy Special Warfare school. Kennedy was really a firm believer in developing these, these elite units like we see, you know, the Green Berets, the seals and so on. So these units involved remained on high alert into November, and long after the public perception of the crisis had effectively disappeared. So this prolonged alert, like the prolonged preparation and prior to discovery of the missiles, indicates the seriousness which the administration had contemplated attacking Cuba. So in effect, the US Army had really prepared for a major war without mobilizing its reserve forces, an anomaly that was similar to the situation which would take place during the Vietnam War. So this high state of readiness was achieved at substantial cost, both in dollars in the long term, efficiency of services, the call for equipment and personnel to bring units into strength, had depleted the army school system, the army never received the authority to extend soldier enlistments or recall reservists, although McNamara ran such authority to both the Navy and the Marines on october 27 So overall, you know, we have the Kennedy would eventually start to sort of, you know, plan for the worst, but not quite rule out. You know, there still might be some hope, holding out hope that this quarantine, and you know this, this is going to work somehow. It’s already showing that it’s, it is that there are already Russian ships that are not really getting close to the quarantine line, turning around, and of course you’re going to get those. You’re going to still pass through, so there’s still very much the tensions that day. And then of course, we have what happens later on with the incident over Cuba with major Rudolph Anderson.

Dan LeFebvre  1:12:55

That leads right into the next question about about major Anderson, because in the movie, again, this is, this is on Saturday the 27th according to the movie, too, and that’s when the first casualty of the Cuban missile crisis occurs. Mention his name, major Anderson. He’s piloting a u2 spy plane at some 72,000 feet, according to the movie, when we see surface to air missiles getting launched, and he tries to evade them, but they end up hitting his plane and breaks up in the air. So if we were to believe the movie’s version of history, this is the first casualty that we see in the crisis. Is that true? Yeah,

Joshua Donohue  1:13:30

it is. And as I mentioned earlier, the YouTube spy plane was a major leap forward in terms of aerospace technology, the brainchild of Clarence Kelly Johnson of Lockheed, and the view two itself was meant to be avoided detection, avoided surface to air missiles, avoid any kind of defense capabilities whatsoever. So Rudolph Anderson does indeed become the first casualty of the crisis when his YouTube was shot down. Anderson was actually not scheduled to fly on this day, but he lobbied hard for the assignment when the mission was edited in schedule. So it was mission 3127 which was Anderson six, mission over Cuba as a part of Operation brass knob, which would be the most dangerous yet. And now what’s occurring is you have the Soviet essay to surface to air, missile operational, and now, seemingly war was going to be imminent in the SA two itself, which many pilots in Vienna during the Vietnam War, we’ll find out, is a deadly, deadly missile with, it’s basically like someone basically firing a telephone call at you that’s coming at you, you know, multiple times the speed of sound, and it’s it’s got a deadly, deadly range. So of course, as soon as the USA, after. You to approach Cuban airspace. It was detected and tracked by Soviet radars and assigned the designation target 33 so together with their commanders, operations nervously. Operators nervously monitor this aircraft as it progressed, crossing from the island from the northwest to a southeast axis and feeding all this real time information and reports to several surface to air missile sites that were now on full combat alert. So right from the start, the Soviets knew that the high flying intruder was neither innocent nor alone. Their work, in turn, was also being tracked by one of the United States Air Force’s RB 40 7h aircraft of the 55th wing, just also coordinating with the crew of the USS Oxford. So this was a multi surface ship airplane operation, not just this one u2 flying by itself. There’s a lot that goes into these missions. So just the presence of the u2 and the RB 40 7h did not escape. You know, the the tension of Soviet radar. So Anderson would steer his u2 over Guantanamo Bay After continuing to a war westerly direction. And the fact that will become crucial, what happened next? This would now bring him directly into the course of a Soviet unit equipped with a the SS c2 a Salish cruise missile deployed outside the village of Filipinas, and the fkr one missile were deployed with also 12 kiloton nuclear warheads meant to neutralize the US base of Guantanamo in case of an invasion. So because the missiles were moved into position during the night of October 26 and the 27th their presence could not have been relayed by earlier revealed, I should say, by earlier reconnaissance flights. So the fact that major Anderson overflew the area in question was arguably one of the main reasons why the Soviet commanders ordered their units to fire and shoot down his u2 so the u2 itself is because it was meant to fly at high altitude to avoid detection and missiles. The SA two was, was the perfect missile to bring the u2 down. If you see the u2 if you notice, pilots of the u2 are always wearing space suits. They are flying really at the edge of the atmosphere. And the u2 itself, with a long wingspan, was not an easy airplane to fly. It’s actually still in service today, but it’s as really bicycle landing. You have to have monitors driving their cars and trucks to monitor the u2 and talk to the pilots to make sure the wings don’t hit the ground. So it’s a tough plane to fly in every from takeoff to landing. So having flown over Guantanamo Anderson tries to fly in a northwesterly direction, and intending to fly over the island, he is constantly monitored. And of course, the missiles are sent up. And by all accounts, they say that A piece of shrapnel pierced the cockpit into Anderson’s flight suit, depressurizing it killed him instantly. And you know, the YouTube crashes there was actually the wreckage of that plane is still on display in certain parts of Cuba. What

Dan LeFebvre  1:18:17

was it like? The tensions like at that had to have been the highest point of the crisis, right?

Joshua Donohue  1:18:22

Yeah. I mean, you have Kennedy is really again, the invasion is on his mind. He has which could take place within 24 to 48 hours. Then you have Rudolph Anderson, you know, being down. And you have LeMay Maxwell, Taylor and others saying, we need to go to war right now, and you have the incident where the threat level is brought to DEFCON two, and Kennedy absolutely loose. He brings, you know, Bobby and Ken O’Donnell into the Oval Office. And it’s just completely, you know, he had a situation where we had a glimmer of hope for peace. And now this happens, and the pressure that must have mounted against Kennedy, and again, he must have been physically and mentally drained by the time this just happens. And of course, you have to now think there’s that scene where he looks out the window he sees, you know, Jackie and his kids out there playing with the other and they’re all thinking the same thing, this could be the end of the world, and the answer that they would be waiting for would come 24 hours later, that Sunday, the world will be pulled back from the brink of war With less than 24 hours to go before American airstrikes are set.

Dan LeFebvre  1:19:45

Wow, which is just one of those things of it’s you can hear it, but it’s still hard to wrap your head around just how close that was. Throughout the movie, there were a couple things that made me think maybe they’re doing it for Hollywood. Timing, because we see some, some military tests going on. It just the, it seems like the absolute worst time. There’s a hydrogen bomb detonation above Johnson island the South Pacific that we see happening. There’s a missile launch test at Vandenberg Air Force Base, and other tests that happened. Were there any other things outside of the crisis that that happened that just, I mean, had had to immediately increase tension. You see a missile launch. How do you know that that’s actually a test as opposed to just a launch, right? Yeah.

Joshua Donohue  1:20:27

So it just so happens. And just to make things even worse, you know, of course, nuclear tests have been going on since the end of the Second World War. Of course, Russia detonates their first atomic bomb in 1949 so since the end of World War Two, the United States and Russia had been conducting nuclear weapons tests with Russia. Of course, in 49 both nations engaged in an arms race with nuclear weapons stockpiles increasing into the hundreds and soon 1000s of nuclear bombs, whether tactical nukes, cruise missiles, multiple independent re entry vehicles, either launched from missile bases, aircraft or submarines. So you can basically miniaturize or maximize these weapons to great effect, as we see with the footage of the test flights and the preparedness flights and nuclear tests. So on August 30, 1961 Nikita Khrushchev announces to at the Soviet Union will break from the three year moratorium and resume nuclear testing. So two days later, they started an unprecedented series of atmospheric nuclear tests, including the detonation of a 50 megaton device. So subsequently, President Kennedy decides that the nation must resume atmospheric nuclear testing and approve what’s known as Operation dominant, which is the largest nuclear testing operation ever conducted. It takes place from april of 1962 all throughout the year, into the Cuban Missile Crisis and beyond that. So this was just, you know, everyday stuff, you know. Oh, yeah, you know, I know this is going on, but yeah, we’re just going to test, you know, fire a nuclear weapon. And beginning in april of 1962 um Dominic was a series of 36 nuclear tests, with the majority of these tests being 29 air drops by B 52 bombers. So three of the tests took place during the crisis. So these weapon development tests were went to evaluate the advanced designs and the labs that were cooking up for all these years and the moratorium and beyond. So the two tests of the operational weapon systems were conducted. The Polaris submarine basically launched ballistic missile and the anti submarine rocket. So during the crisis itself, the US will detonate a one point 1.59 megaton bomb called chama over Johnston Atoll on October 18. Checkmate is detonated over Johnston on the 20th the Soviet Union will detonate k3 on the 22nd at the height of the crisis, the US will detonate two more nuclear devices, bluegill, triple prime and calamity on the 26th and 27th of October, respectively. So the Soviets then respond with another detonation of k4 on the 28th and the megatons are going up and up into the hundreds at this point. So it’s almost as if both nations nuclear weapons were doing the talking in somewhat shape or form. Okay, you have this. Okay, we have this. And just this back and forth. So heeding to this wake up call, in the following months, both parties in alongside the United Kingdom continued negotiations on banning nuclear testing, and with the comprehensive banning of nuclear tests on the table, only a partial ban could be achieved, owing to the pressure from the military establishment on both sides. So the Newton, the 1963 partial Test Ban Treaty bans nuclear testing above ground, in the atmosphere and outer space and underwater, but not under, not underground, I should say, so you can almost make the argument that as a result of the Cuban Missile Crisis, and you know, the continued nuclear tests that were going on simultaneously, you had to back away and say, Okay, this, this could have really gone astray and a detonation here, oh, we’re going to war. So it could have been that easy to sort of make that miscalculation,

Dan LeFebvre  1:24:35

which throws another whole other bit of historical context to what you were talking about earlier, when talking about how you know, Kennedy had to continue with his normal schedule, and everybody has to continue with the normal schedule, because you don’t want the public to know yet. But part of that that public schedule is also doing these tests that might say, say some things you don’t want to say to the opponents. The other side, right? That just adds another whole other level of tension that we haven’t even talked about,

Joshua Donohue  1:25:04

that was there as if, as if, you know the whole situation with the missiles being, you know, the warheads being placed on on them, and the Russian submarines with their with nuclear weapons. Of course, the Americans there too, and still, obviously the downing of major Anderson’s YouTube, and then, of course, the detonation that takes place all throughout. It’s a miracle. It really, it really is and and even to go further beyond into the Cold War years, I remember there was a an instance in 1983 or a Soviet operator on a console detected the launch of nuclear missiles from the United States, and was just seconds away from launching. So is

Dan LeFebvre  1:25:47

that the war games movie? Wasn’t there a movie about that kind of thing? Yes, both. Matthew Broderick,

Joshua Donohue  1:25:52

yeah. So it’s, it’s like I said, there are the way things played out and the way that Kennedy’s just tactful decision making. And just to give him, you know, so much credit, you see in the film how much pressure he is under. And just, you know, again, the physical and mental toll you see, really, like towards the end of it had to have been considerable. And, you know, I guess if you really think about the end of the day. It also damages relations between Russia and Cuba that Castro wants to go to war. He wants to make the first strike. He wants Soviet backing behind him, and when the Russians begin pulling away, he’s saying, wait a minute, what would happen? We had this whole idea we could keep these missiles here and with the Bay of Pigs, and this could happen again. So it really cool. Our heads prevail, and thankfully for all of us, but that this takes place,

Dan LeFebvre  1:26:53

movie focus is mostly from the American side, so we don’t get a lot from the Soviet side. But you did mention earlier the the Jupiter missiles. And that’s that’s a part of it. We’ll get to kind of how the movie shows the whole thing coming to an end. But what were things like from the Soviet side? Because as I was watching the movie, I got the impression that, okay, one of the big reasons why the United States wants the missiles out of Cuba is because they can destroy so many people so quickly. But I also got the impression that the the United States is basically doing the same thing the Soviet Union with missiles in Turkey, that could pretty much kind of do the same thing that we’re seeing over here. So can you give us an overview of what things were like on the Soviet side that we don’t even see in

Joshua Donohue  1:27:37

the movie? So things were much different on the Soviet side, the Soviet Union reacted very differently. So for Americans, especially during World War Two, it’s for the Cuban Missile Crisis. It’s unique crisis, because for the first time in their history, they realized that we could be destroyed completely. We didn’t worry about this. During World War Two, we had oceans on either side of us. None of our cities were bombed. Our industries continued to produce the material and weapons we needed to win the war. So for the Soviet people, they had their own war experience. For them, it was no different. There was no panic in the streets of Moscow. Life went on as usual. They experienced threats many times throughout their history, going back, you know, to know, the times of the Mongolian invasions during the time of, you know, in the post Roman world, and in the early part of the Middle Ages, where you have Western Asia was a flurry of activity from outside context. You have the Vikings, the Magyars, the Germanic tribes and so on. You have the fast forward. You have the Russo Japanese war in 1905 President Theodore Roosevelt has to preside over the negotiations to end that conflict. Then you have World War One, where Russia is forced out of the war with the Treaty of Brest litovsk. And yeah, of course, the Russian Revolution of 1917 taking place. And then Stalin enters the picture. You have the great terror. You have the purges from 1936 to 38 then, of course, World War Two, for Nazi Germany breaks from Molotov Ribbentrop and invades the Soviet Union in 1941 with Operation Barbarossa. So the worst fighting of World War Two takes place in Russia. They suffer the highest amount of casualties in the war. Estimates between eight to 10 million soldiers and around 20 million civilian deaths. And Russia will account for about a third of all the losses in all of World War Two, which is staggering. So the Russians misconception was sort of their own reality, the enemy at the gate, the missiles at your borders, like anything, this is all a part of their historical experience. So Europeans had enemies the. States for all their time in history, American bases that surround now the Soviet Union and when Americans replaced missiles bases in Turkey and any other European country, it didn’t create any panic, because the obligation of the government was to deal with the opposite side. It was expected that they were going to take a firm stance on any sort of, you know, potential threat. So again, the Americans, we were lucky, and we enjoyed, you know, the isolation. And Americans were basically scared of everything as a nation. And I would compare, you know, the Americans at this time as a sort of a tiger that grows up in the zoo and then just released into the jungle, you know. So they really didn’t have any kind of conception. World War Two was distant. Pearl Harbor was off in the middle of Hawaii, didn’t touch the mainland. And, you know, with Russia again, it’s that constant threat that we’re going to be, you know, destroyed or conquered was, you know, was really their mindset,

Dan LeFebvre  1:31:01

okay, yeah, that makes, that makes a lot of sense as to why I was so treated so differently, for sure, yeah,

Joshua Donohue  1:31:09

different, different circumstances. And again, they had been, they’d ex, I would even say, you know, it’s still continuing, of course, with, you know, Russia and Ukraine being engaged in this war. You know, for years down, there’s no, no sign of it, you know, study, let’s say North Korean troops are going into the fight now. So, you know, they’re just a country that’s, you know, used to strife and conflict. They’re used to, you know, going out, whether it’s, you know, regaining territory from the old Soviet days, or you’re defending themselves from the Nazis, or, you know, whatever the conflict was, they’re just a nation that is used to having to defend itself at all costs.

Dan LeFebvre  1:31:51

Yeah, yeah, which is not something we’re so used to here and the young lanes of the United States is for sure. Well, at the end of the movie, we see Ken O’Donnell driving Bobby Kennedy to the Soviet embassy in the middle of the night. When they get there, there’s the smell. You can’t smell it in movie, of course, but there’s the smell of smoke and the dimension in the air because the Soviets are burning documents in anticipation of war. And we see Bobby Kennedy talking to the Soviet ambassador to Brennan. He tells the ambassador that the President is willing to accept the deal in Khrushchev’s first letter, in other words, in exchange for the Soviets removing the missiles in Cuba and submitting to the UN inspection to verify that it’s done, the US will publicly promise not to invade or help any other nation invade Cuba, and the US will also Remove we just mentioned those, the Jupiter missiles from Turkey. That’s part of the deal as well, although Kennedy says that they’ll have to do it privately about six months later. They don’t want to look like it’s happening right away, but they’ll have the answer by tomorrow, Sunday, according to the movie, and the answer comes. Khrushchev agrees. So the world is pulled back from the brink of war with less than 24 hours to go before the American air strikes are set to commence. How well does the movie do showing the way the Cuban missile crisis came to an end.

Joshua Donohue  1:33:11

So as Kennedy, as President Kennedy, suspected the missile crisis had turned a decisive corner, but it was not over the weeks of secret, often tense negotiations would follow until a complete Soviet and us understanding was made on November the 20th, so President Kennedy’s position remains sort of awkward through the last sort of days of October led to believe that the crisis was essentially over. Reporters expected that evidence they were gonna be seeing, evidence the missiles being pulled out of Cuba. So the government really had no such evidence, or, you know, to release. So Kennedy had really little to go on. Expect, really expect, except his own belief that Khrushchev was indeed being sincere, and that belief was reinforced by intelligence of both, as I mentioned before, Cuban and Chinese anger of what they see, what they saw was a regard of a Soviet betrayal that they had effect were, you know, pumping themselves up. We’re going to be with the ultimate counter to the United States. We’re the biggest superpower. We’re going to develop more nuclear missiles, and we’re going to be the big, tough leader of the Communist world. And of course, you have China going communist 1949 and of course, Cuba in 1959 as well. So there’s this mounting communist threat that’s existing abroad, and it would really take more intense negotiation and communication between Kennedy and Khrushchev on october 28 Khrushchev would send a private message to Kennedy again trying to nail. Down the deal on the withdrawal of the Jupiter missiles. So this is really a good sort of lesson in statecraft and statesmanship, and even brinksmanship, if you want to sort of term it that way, that the Cold War was was really overall marked by the series of events, by, you know, the, you have the Berlin crisis, and, you know, the Berlin Blockade, the Berlin airline, then the Berlin wall goes up. And there’s all these different phases of what, of course, we’re in well within the Soviet Zone of Occupation, you know, right face to face with the Russians, and it’s this divisiveness. And again, the criticism is level to Kennedy that he can’t handle it. And I think what this demonstrates is that his decision making was critical may have saved the world. I would say in many ways, he probably did, because you think about it, at any given day, say, one day you’re feeling this way, the next, you’re feeling this another way. And someone tells you this, and someone tells you this, and you thinking, okay, how am I going to formulate a reasonable conclusion? How am I going to make a sound decision here? And you got, you have guys like LeMay and Taylor and, you know, Rusk and McGeorge Bundy and McNamara, all of these guys are just, you know, and of course, your flesh and blood brother, Bobby is there right with you. And I was actually surprised to see and read how much of a role he had as the attorney general. He really, I would say, in many ways, didn’t get really a whole lot of credit for really the credit he deserves, because he was putting himself out there, wanting to go out and meet with, you know, the Soviet delegation, and try and nail down a solution. Because he really felt that, I think in a lot of ways, that the brothers both felt that they had to sort of make up for the legacy of their father in a lot of and again, there’s that, there again, that that Munich exchange, that look they have, and there’s, there’s the referencing to it, I think in a lot of ways, they, they want to reverse course and say, No, we’re not going to be appeasing. We want to try and find a diplomatic solution to this issue, because we don’t have any other choice. The other choice is the world goes to nuclear war and it’s all over. We’re not going to have tomorrow to think, oh, maybe we shouldn’t have made this decision. So Kennedy, again, I get his presidency was for the short time that it lasted. He did a lot of things, a lot of important things. And, you know, I was surprised to see towards the end and in the end of the crisis, some of the phone calls he makes are kind of surprised. And I’ll, I’ll sort of tell you about that

Dan LeFebvre  1:37:56

in a moment. Are you open to doing a what if question about that? Because I’m curious about that. As as I was watching the movie, I got the sense that JFK, Bobby Kennedy, and then, of course, Ken O’Donnell, and those are the kind of the three people who repeatedly seem to be pushing back against you mentioned some of the military leaders there, and in the movie, yeah, we see them pushing like, oh, we need to go to war. You know, we need to launch these airstrikes and do that. And of course, we know from history that JFK was assassinated about a year and a month later in november of 1963 so I can’t help but wonder, what if JFK had not been President? Maybe LBJ or, I guess anyone else really, that you could throw in there. But do you think the Cuban missile crisis would have ended differently if JFK was not President?

Joshua Donohue  1:38:42

That’s a great question, because I said, you know, everyone has different attitudes, tolerances, thresholds. Interestingly enough, although the film doesn’t show it, and it’s in the book The Kennedy tapes, and again, there’s the transcripts of the conversation Kennedy would leave the X com meeting on the 28th that Sunday, at 12, 8pm and he does this a couple of times prior, but he placed a call. He would place a call to former President Dwight Eisenhower. And Eisenhower, of course, knows all too well the complexities of the US Russia relationship, especially during the height of the Red Scare during his presidency. Of course, Sputnik takes place, you know, the YouTube and Francis Gary Powers. So Kennedy would brief Eisenhower on the results of the preliminary agreements between himself and Premier Nikita Khrushchev. Kennedy’s literal response to Eisenhower’s critique is one of agreement, and Eisenhower seems to agree with Kennedy’s decision making, which I’m sure had to be reassuring for the young president to get such affirmation from someone like Eisenhower, who was no stranger to making hard decisions, not only during those difficult, intense years of the Cold War During his presidency, but. But of course, as his exemplary leadership as supreme allied commander during World War Two. After he hangs up with Eisenhower, he then calls president, former president, Harry Truman, who was 78 years old at the time, and Truman also well versed in the art of cold war strategy, being really the first president to experience it at the end of the world after end of World War Two. He also expresses his relief and telling Kennedy, I’m pleased to death with the way those things turned out, quote, unquote, and like the Eisenhower call it was brief. So he’s almost looking for affirmation like validation. I would say like, you know, you like my predecessors, guys who make the right decisions. Here. After he hangs up with Truman, he then calls former President Herbert Hoover, who’s 88 years old at the time, Hoover is also pleased to hear the good news about the events, telling Kennedy this represents a good triumph for you. So I think this is a good example of the type of person that and the leader that Jonathan Gerald Kennedy was. He knew his history. He would quote, you know, in the film Sun Tzu the guns of August, he was well aware of what each of his predecessors had experienced during their respective presidencies. So to answer your question, I think if any one of Kennedy’s predecessors, even Richard Nixon, who was of course, Eisenhower’s vice president, ran against Kennedy in 1960 election, he understood the realities of the Cold War. He was a great statesman who knew the art of strategy and policy, negotiation and deal making. So it takes a great deal of diplomacy to deal with the complexities, such as the Cuban Missile Crisis. Lyndon Johnson, I’m not sure he, he, you know, again, he was vice president with Kennedy. He was in the room. I was surprised that he would when I was reading the book, he would kind of chime in here and there when, when only really asked Kennedy was really more focused on, on his his strategies. Lyndon Johnson was kind of like a, you know, a side, sort of sidebar, if you will. So as I mentioned earlier, the overwhelming consensus between a JFK advisors, between Robert McNamara and Ted Sorensen. Ashley will say that Ken O’Donnell was not the central figure throughout the crisis. So I looked even more into it and found out something interesting about the film. So Kevin O’Donnell, who is Ken O’Donnell’s son, who was a venture capitalist and actually would buy back controlling interest of the production company beacon pictures in 1999 he denied the influence on his father’s character or any portrayal of that. So there’s always that sort of speculation of whether his influence put Ken O’Donnell at the forefront, but from by all accounts and what McNamara and really and Rusk and others said that Ted Sorensen was really the guy. He was the point man. He was the one writing the speeches that Kennedy was going to tell the nation. So Sorenson was really the guy that doesn’t get didn’t get quite the credit that he deserves. Not so much Ken O’Donnell. Sadly enough, Ken O’Donnell would succumb to the effects of alcoholism even 1977 after Kennedy was assassinated in november of 1963 he joined with Robert Kennedy. They were very close, and when Robert was assassinated in June of 1968 he just couldn’t, couldn’t bear it. It was just too he had become, it just completely enmeshed in the Kennedy’s life into Camela. He was right there at the center of things, but it’s sadly, it doesn’t end well for him. So interesting is that he’s not really the focal point of the movie. That’s kind of why I gave it just a B, not really a b plus or an A, if maybe they would have put Ted Sorensen as the central guy. Maybe different story. But I think throughout the end of the day, it’s an important film in terms especially nowadays, where we’re talking about the escalation of tensions in the Middle East, of course, in Russia, in terms of the historical context, it’s the closest we’ve ever come to nuclear Armageddon and the lessons we learned from this crisis. In spite of our differences along ideological lines, political lines, etc, cooler heads can prevail. John F Kennedy had plenty of critics, critics during his President presidency, but I think he proved a lot of those doubters wrong with his. Handling of the crisis. So if we would have attacked Cuba, there was the likelihood that Russian personnel would have been killed as well, which would have easily spiraled out of control. And just an interesting note in with the film itself, Kevin Costner actually traveled to Cuba in 2001 to screen the film for Fidel Castro and and costume would say it was an experience of a lifetime, being able to sit a few feet away from Castro and seeing him relive these events as a young man. So I thought that was pretty interesting,

Dan LeFebvre  1:45:33

huh? Did he you mentioned how what he thought of it?

Joshua Donohue  1:45:39

He thought it was good, really. He didn’t like the film. Yeah. I mean, obviously he wasn’t portrayed in the film, but he agreed. And certain points disagree with some of the things that happened. But overall, I think in terms of the that particular thing that Costner did, which I thought was great, just, you’ll think about it. Oh, why would we do that? They’re communist, but this is how you break down the walls of division between nations. Is this is what we do here in the United States, and exposing people to the things, how we interpret things, that we can break down differences in spite of our different, you know, our beliefs and thinking this way, you think this way. So I think that was a nice little sort of postscript that I read about the film that Costner, you know, was was good enough to do that. I think it was a pretty pointed thing to sort of, you know, end the, you know, the legacy of the film with that because, you know, it’s because it’s important. I think the film does a great job on showing exactly the sequence of events in the league, for the most part, how they played out.

Dan LeFebvre  1:46:50

Yeah, and, I mean, it’s end of the day, it’s, it’s talking to other people. I mean, regardless of whether or not you agree with we agree with them. But I think that’s, it’s, it’s what happened in the movie too, that we saw with Khrushchev being like, Okay, we just got to send, let’s just talk to each other directly. Khrushchev and Kennedy talking to each other directly, I mean, through letters, but, you know, directly as you could in the 60s, right?

Joshua Donohue  1:47:11

Yeah. So, you know, it was the interesting thing about both leaders. Obviously, Kennedy would lose his life in Dallas in November of 63 and, you know, there’s, there’s always that speculation of the what, if, you know, what, what it would have would Vietnam would have happened? You know, Kennedy was, was talking about, you know, not really wanting to get involved there was already, we already committed. You know, troops there. There are operations going on there. So, of course, you know, LBJ then takes over. And then, the course really the worst of what had happened with the Cuban Missile Crisis in past and once Vietnam begins in 1965 that becomes the unfortunate legacy of not only Lyndon Johnson’s presidency, but in a lot of ways, His Kennedy’s old advisors, McNamara, being brought, probably the most prominent Johnson will keep Kennedy’s cat, even Robert Kennedy and they do not like each other whatsoever. That’s fairly well documented. So Nikita Khrushchev and I think in a lot of ways, the results of the Cuban Missile Crisis. For him, it weakens his position considerably, because, as I mentioned, this upsets the Cubans and upsets China. It’s for the first time that the US and the Soviet are right here and the Soviets back off, and that we hold firm with the blockade and removing the missiles, making the deal to make that happen. And this upsets many in the communists on the party lines, and the fall in 1964 that Peter Khrushchev will be forced from power, and that will in many ways. Many historians will say that the Cuban missile crisis will be one of the primary reasons why that happens, and that he basically loses power and influence, and you know, you have I believe it was two more leaders who come in. I think both of them die, and then Leonid Brezhnev comes in there.

Dan LeFebvre  1:49:12

Well, thankful that those what if scenarios did not turn out. Because as bad as they could have been, let’s put it that way, it could have been a lot worse.

Joshua Donohue  1:49:21

Yeah, it really could have been. I mean, especially a guy like LeMay. Lemay’s reputation, they used to call him Bombs away. LeMay, he he wanted more. And if you would have given him the green light, there would have been B 50 twos and every other asset, just leveling and laying waste. And you have that kind of commitment, that kind of attack take place again. You’re going to kill Russians on the ground. There are advisors there. Not they’re not just dropping the missiles off on the island, saying, okay, tell them the Cubans, you can put them together. Well, we’re going to go, no, they’re on the ground. They’re advising the technical data. They have to teach them. How do you. These missiles, how to load the warheads, and it’s a complicated process. And again, if you’re attacking the island with en masse like that, you’re going to have Russia cap. And that was even the concern in the Vietnam War, that we would, in a lot of ways, limit, limit strikes to the north, because there were Russians helping bring in surface to air missiles and other anti aircraft and different military technology into the region, and there was that concern, I think Lyndon Johnson said, God forbid one of our pilots drops a bomb on the smoke stack of a Russian freighter. We have a bigger problem on our head. Yeah,

Dan LeFebvre  1:50:35

you start that trigger of treaties that World War One, basically, yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming back on the show to chat through 13 days. And I know we’ve been talking about the 60s today, but if I recall we were last time we talked, you were working on an article about World War Two. But can you share a bit about what you’re working on now and where listeners can learn more about your

Joshua Donohue  1:50:57

work? Sure. So I mentioned last time I have a article about the attack, so a smaller aspect of the attack on crow harvest, the attack on the Marine Corps Base at Efra field on December 7, 1941 that is on the editor’s table hopefully be coming out in spring in World War Two magazine. And I mentioned to you earlier that I just come back from a recent trip to Gettysburg and a trip to the US Army heritage and Education Center in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, just got to into the early phases of two new projects and working on one about my uncle service in the Vietnam War. He was with H troop, 17th cavalry, the 198th Infantry Brigade, 23rd America division. That’s a mouthful. And my great grandfather, who was in World War Two, who fought with the 70th Infantry Division during way they got there just the end of the Battle of the Bulge and into the end of the into the surrender of Germany at the end of the Second World War. So I’m also working on a book that I’m collaborating with another author on. It’s going to be about more so aviation, and kind of getting into my love affair with aviation, who I grew up with and still love it, and how it’s pretty much impacted my life and military history and stuff. So a lot of good stuff coming up in the next couple

Dan LeFebvre  1:52:20

months, fantastic, and I’ll add links to those in the show notes. Thanks again. So much for your time, Josh.

Joshua Donohue  1:52:24

Thank you so much for having me on great to be here.

October 8, 1967. Bolivia.

To kick off this week’s events from the movies, we’ll go back to the 1969 film called Che! to find an event that happened 57 years ago on Tuesday this week.

About an hour and 21 minutes into the movie, we’re inside a room with a shirtless man’s body lying on a table. A group of men, some in suits and others in military uniforms, are crowded around. One of them points to a bullet wound on body, saying this was the fatal shot less than 24 hours ago.

The camera pans over to the corner of the room where we can see the man in the three-star beret breaking the fourth wall as he talks to the camera. I guess we can give him a name…that’s Albert Paulsen’s character, Captain Vasquez. He explains that the raid on Alto Saco was the beginning of the end for Guevara. Vasquez says they ambushed his rear guard in La Higueras and encircled him in the Churro Ravine.

We’re no longer in the room with the dead body, now, as the scene shifts to what Vasquez is explaining. Rebel soldiers are being shot at by the Rangers in rocks surrounding the ravine. It’s not just rifles, but the Rangers have mortars as well. One of the rebels is killed. Then another. They’re firing back, and some of the Rangers are shot, too.

The intense fighting continues for a few more moments until we can see Omar Sharif’s version of Che Guevara climbing to get out of the ravine. The rebel machine gun is captured, silencing most of the firing. Che and another man seem to be the only two left, and Che is obviously in a lot of pain.

The Rangers close in as the two rebel soldiers fire back from the cover of rocks. The other man is shot and killed. Che, too, is shot, although he’s not killed. Wounded, he lies back and the shooting stops. The Rangers stand up, walking slowly to where Che is lying on the ground.

Che is still breathing as Captain Vasquez reaches him. Pulling out a photo, Vasquez looks at it and then back down at Che. Then, over the radio, Vasquez announces: Puma to Lancer. Puma to Lancer. We’ve got Papa. Alive. Repeat, we’ve got Papa.

The true story behind that scene in the movie Che!

Transitioning into our fact-check of the 1969 film Che!, I’ll first point out that we did a deep dive into the full movie that I’ll link to in the show notes. For this week’s historical event, though, it got the basic gist correct even if it did change a lot of the details from the true story.

For example, remember the guy leading the Rangers in the movie? We talked about him earlier; he’s the guy with the three stars on his beret. The actor playing him Albert Paulsen, and in the movie it’s a character named Captain Vasquez.

In the true story, the leader of the Bolivian Army’s 2^nd Ranger Battalion was Gary Prado Salmón, who was later promoted to General and a national hero in Bolivia for Che’s capture.

The 2^nd Ranger Battalion was trained especially to target the guerilla fighters. While we didn’t cover it in our movie segment this week, a bit earlier in the film Captain Vasquez tells the camera that the CIA was not involved in any way.

Well, most sources that I found say that even though the 2^nd Rangers were from the Bolivian Army, they did get help from the CIA, as well training from the 8^th Special Forces Group from the U.S. Army. I’ll add a link to the show notes for this episode with a fascinating article by Marco Margaritoff over on the website All That’s Interesting that gives a nice overview of a man named Félix Rodríguez, who was the CIA agent tasked with helping in the capture of Che Guevara.

Something else the movie changes from the real story is the number of soldiers involved. In the movie, it looks like Captain Vasquez has maybe a dozen or so Rangers with him. Granted, they’re often among the rocks and moving around the terrain so it’s hard to track down an exact number.

With that said, though, the 2^nd Ranger Battalion had 650 soldiers in it and about 180 to 200 of them were involved in the capture of Che Guevara on October 8^th, 1967. So, there were a lot more soldiers involved than we see in the movie.

In the true story, the Rangers received word during the early morning hours of October 8^th of a little over a dozen men who had walked through a local farmer’s field the night before. They were going toward a canyon area nearby, so that’s where the Rangers went.

The movie was right to show mortars being used, though, as they used mortars and machine guns along with sections, or platoons, of soldiers set up at different areas in the canyon to help seal off the entrances and exits to the canyon while other soldiers in the Battalion closed in on their targets.

It was a tactic that worked, as before long the Rangers pushed back the guerrillas to where they had nowhere else to go. As for Che Guevara himself, somehow his rifle was destroyed—or at least, rendered unusable, and he was shot in the leg. It was in his right calf, so not a mortal wound but between that and not having a weapon, he was forced to surrender when the Rangers came upon him.

Although this, too, seems to have happened differently than what we see in the movie. I say that because in the movie we see the Captain Vasquez character look down at Che and pull a photo out of his pocket to verify that’s who it is. In the true story, though, one of the Rangers, a Sergeant, later told Che’s biographer that Che was the one to identify himself to them.

Either way, Che Guevara was captured on October 8^th, 1967. The next day, the President of Bolivia ordered Che be put to death. And so, on October 9^th, 1967, the revolutionary Che Guevara was executed at the age of 39.

As a last little side note, when the movie shows Che’s body, we can see a bullet wound in his chest that one of the bystanders mentions as being the fatal shot. Even though Che was executed, that sort of shot would still be accurate because according to some sources, it was the CIA agent Félix Rodríguez who suggested they don’t shoot Che in the head to make it obvious he was executed, but rather to shoot him in a way that would look like he’d been a casualty of a run-in with the Bolivian Army.

If you want to watch the event that happened this week in history, check out the 1969 movie called Che! That’s not to be confused with the 2008 two-part series from Steven Soderbergh that’s also called Che. While that’s another good one to watch this week, the movie we talked about today is the 1969 film with an exclamation point at the end: Che!

And don’t forget we’ve got a deep dive in the show notes that you can queue up right now to hear more about the true story of the entire movie!

October 9, 1919. Chicago, Illinois.

Our next historical event falls on Wednesday this week, and we’ll find a re-enactment of it at about an hour and 22 minutes into the movie called Eight Men Out.

Hitting play on the movie, and we’re at a baseball game.

The crowd seems to be getting ready for the game to start. On the mound for the Chicago White Sox is Lefty Williams. He’s played by James Read in the movie.

<whew> Williams exhales.

There’s text on the screen in the movie saying this is game #8.

Then, Williams winds and offers the first pitch. The batter swings, sending a fly ball into right field. We don’t see how far the ball goes, but what we can see is the reaction from many of the White Sox players who don’t seem happy. Williams returns to the mound with a stern look on his face. He looks into the batter’s box where another hitter steps to the plate.

The camera is just behind the catcher now. We can see Williams wind, and pitch. The batter swings, another hit.

Again, we don’t see where it goes, but we can see a baserunner make it to second base. That must be the guy who got the first hit. Two back-to-back hits, it seems.

In the crowd, Lefty Williams’ wife looks sad.

Back on the mound, Williams is ready for another hitter. He looks at the runner on second. The pitch. Way outside. The catcher has to reach to stop it, but he does. No runners advance. The next pitch.

The batter swings, and Williams’ head snaps around to watch what we can assume is a high fly ball to right field. Again, we can’t see how far it goes, but we can see the catcher throwing his mitt down as a runner crosses the plate to score. The crowd is jeering at Williams, who seems to be starting the game off on a rocky note.

But, the game goes on, and Williams settles in to face the next hitter.

The pitch.

Another high fly ball, this time to left field. It hits the outfield wall, and we can see another runner score as he crosses home plate. Again, the catcher throws his mitt to the ground in disgust. As he does, another runner crosses home plate. Three runs scored so far, and there’s a runner on second.

John Mahoney’s character, Kid Gleason, runs from the White Sox dugout. As he does, he yells, “James, you’re in!”

When he reaches the pitcher’s mound he takes the ball from Williams, ending his day.

The true story behind that scene in the movie Eight Men Out

That sequence comes from the 1988 movie directed by John Sayles called Eight Men Out. The event it’s depicting is the final game of the 16^th World Series, which happened this week in history on October 9^th, 1919.

The movie is historically accurate to show Lefty Williams starting that day for what was game eight of the Series. And it’s also correct to show him giving up a number of hits, but in the movie, it looks like all but one of the hits are going to right field—they weren’t all hit there, but then again, we don’t see where the ball goes in the movie. All we can see are the actor’s reactions to the hits, so maybe that’s nitpicking a little too much.

Here’s the true story.

The first hitter to face Lefty Williams in game eight of the 1919 World Series was the Cincinnati Reds’ second baseman, Morrie Rath. He popped out to start the game. The second hitter was the Reds first baseman Jake Daubert. He hit a single to center field. Next up was Heinie Groh, the third baseman. He smacked another single, this one to right field a lot like we see in the movie. It also allowed Daubert to advance from first to second, just like we see in the movie.

Next up for the Reds was their cleanup hitter, the center fielder Edd Roush. He smashed a double to right field, allowing Daubert to score and Groh moved to third base.

I couldn’t find anything in my research to suggest the White Sox catcher got so fed up by the pitcher Williams giving up these hits that he threw his mitt on the ground like we see happening in the movie. But the movie was correct to show that catcher for the White Sox being Ray Schalk. He’s played by Gordon Clapp in the movie.

The next batter for the Reds was their left fielder, Pat Duncan. He hit a double to left field, driving in Groh from third and Roush from second. At this point, the Reds were up 3-0 with one out in the first inning.

The White Sox manager had seen enough. Just like we see him doing in the movie, Kid Gleason took out his starter and put in the right-handed reliever Bill James.

To establish a bit of context that we don’t see in the movie, the 26-year-old Lefty Williams was the White Sox #2 starter. His real name, by the way, is Claude. “Lefty” was just a nickname. And yes, he was a left-handed pitcher.

In 1919, Lefty had a stellar record of 23 wins to 11 losses with an ERA of 2.64. That’s spread across 297 innings. In fact, Williams not only led the White Sox with 125 strikeouts, he led the majors that season with 40 games started and he tied the White Sox #1 starter, Eddie Cicotte, with five shutouts.

So, Williams had a fantastic season in 1919.

His playoff record wasn’t so great, as he went 0-3 giving up 12 earned runs across 16.1 innings pitched for an ERA of 6.61. And while we didn’t talk about what happened the night before the game, there are a lot of people who believe Lefty Williams was given an ultimatum.

What really happened is one of those moments behind closed doors that we’ll just never know for sure.

As the story goes, Williams was visited by an associate of the bookie and gambler who had offered cash to the White Sox players in exchange for them throwing games. That same story suggests this unnamed associate told Williams that either he purposely lose his next start or else his wife and child would pay the consequences.

And so, as we know from what happened publicly, Lefty Williams had a terrible game. He gave up three runs and couldn’t even get through the first inning before being pulled. The Reds would go on to win the game 10-5, and by extension, the World Series overall, five games to three.

The allegations of throwing the Series hit the White Sox almost immediately, earning the team the nickname “Black Sox” for the scandal. It also changed Major League Baseball as the owners gave over control to establish the position of the Commissioner of Baseball, a position that still exists today, in an attempt to give public trust in the sport again. It’d also end up with eight players from the White Sox being permanently banned from Major League Baseball—hence the title of the movie, Eight Men Out.

One of those players who was permanently banned was Lefty Williams.

So, if you’re feeling like a sports movie to watch this week, check out the 1988 film called Eight Men Out!

And if you want to learn more about the true story, after you watch the movie, we compared that with history back on episode #132 of Based on a True Story. Or, if you want to take a super deep dive, the entire second season of another fantastic podcast called Infamous America is dedicated to the Black Sox Scandal of 1919. You can find a link to that in the show notes for this episode.

October 12, 1492. The Bahamas.

From the baseball field in the last movie, to the Bahamas, our next movie is the 1992 movie called 1492: Conquest of Paradise. About 54 minutes into the movie, we’ll find this week’s event as we can see two large ships. There’s one in the foreground and another a little distance away, and they’re not moving at all. In fact, the night before in the movie, we saw the anchors land in the water.

Today, we’re seeing smaller boats departing the large ships and heading toward the land we can see in the distance. Lush, green trees and sandy beaches make this scene look like what you’d expect for sailors on ships in the 1400s to be making landfall on an island in the Caribbean.

Because of the camera angles in the movie, it’s hard to see exactly how many boats are leaving the larger ships but I counted at least five in a single frame. Each boat is filled with men, and each boat is carrying flags of orange, yellow, purple, and many bright colors.

The camera focuses on one of the men as he jumps off the boat into the water. The movie goes into slow motion, capturing the moment as he splashes into the waist-deep water. He continues to walk in slow motion, each footstep splashing into the water.

He falls to his knees just beyond the waves in a gesture of appreciation. The camera cuts to other men jumping off the boats now. Some are running onto the land, others are falling onto the sandy beach—overall, it’s a scene that makes it obvious they haven’t seen land for quite some time. Dry land is a welcome sight.

Then, the movie gives us the location and the date. Guanahani Island. 12^th of October 1492.

The man who was on his knees gets up now. He’s approached by a colorfully dressed man.

“Don Christopher,” he says, as he unravels a scroll. Christopher signs something on the scroll. Then he speaks, “By the grace of God, in the name of their gracious Majesties of Castilla and Aragon…”

He pauses for a moment to turn around to the men who are all lined up on the beach now.

“…by all the powers vested in me, I claim this island and name it San Salvador.”

Then, the camera backs up to show the line of men as they start walking inland.

The true story behind that scene in the movie 1942: Conquest of Paradise!

That is a sequence from the 1992 movie called 1492: Conquest of Paradise. The event it’s depicting is Christopher Columbus making his first landing after the long trip across the ocean from Europe.

That happened this week in history, on October 12^th, 1492, right away let’s clarify the ships themselves. In the sequence we talked about today, we could only see two ships at any one time in the movie. In the true story, Columbus sailed with three ships: Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria.

That we only saw two in the sequence we talked about today isn’t really a point against the movie for historical accuracy—we do see three ships at different points in the movie. It’s just the sequence for October 12^th doesn’t really show all three ships at one time.

With that said, there has been a lot of debate among historians about exactly where Columbus landed.

According to Columbus himself, it was on an island called Guanahani. That’s the name we see mentioned in the movie.

The name, Guanahani, is the Taino name for the island. Just like we see in the movie, Columbus named the island San Salvador upon his arrival. I’m not sure if he did it the moment he landed on the beach like we see in the movie, but then again, Columbus thought he landed in East Asia at first. He didn’t know he actually landed in a chain of islands we now know as the Bahamas.

The name he gave the island is derived from the Spanish “Isla San Salvador” or, in English, “Island of the Holy Savior.”

As a little side note, the name “Guanahani” means “Small Land in the Upper Waters” in the Taino language. The Taino language, in turn, used to be the most popular language in the Caribbean at the time of Columbus’ landing…but that language is extinct now. Also, in the 17^th century, the island was called Waitlings Island after an Englishman who landed there. In 1925, the island was officially renamed to San Salvador.

In 1971, Columbus Day became an officially recognized Federal holiday in the United States—but that recognition has changed in recent years. The observance of the holiday doesn’t always land on October 12^th, but at least now you know a little more about the history behind the event that happened this week in history.

If you want to dig further into the story, of course you can watch the movie called 1492: Conquest of Paradise.

Even that title is a bit controversial when you consider how Columbus landed on lands owned by people who already lived there and conquered them.

Remember when I mentioned the Taino language is extinct now? Well, that’s just one example of something lost to history since Columbus’ landing. There has been a lot of controversy over his and other colonists’ actions.

As a result, in 1992, Berkeley, California became the first city in the United States to celebrate Indigenous Peoples’ Day instead of Columbus Day. Cities like Austin, Seattle, and Philadelphia, or states like Maine, South Dakota, and Alaska, among many others have dropped Columbus Day in favor of Indigenous Peoples’ Day. Here in Oklahoma where I’m recording this from right now, many here celebrate Native American Day instead.

So, if you’re looking for something to watch this week, the movie we talked about in this segment is called 1492: Conquest of Paradise. The landing sequence happens at about 54 minutes into the movie. If you watch the movie, or even if you just want to dig deeper into the history, scroll back to episode #186 of Based on a True Story where we covered that movie and the true story behind it.

Historical birthdays from the movies

Let’s move onto our next segment now, where we learn about historical figures from the movies that were born this week in history.

On October 9^th, 1895, Eugene Bullard was born in Columbus, Georgia. He is considered to be the first African American military pilot to fly in combat. And even though he was born in the United States, he flew for the French during WWI—he was rejected by the U.S. military. He’s one of those historical figures that I wish there was a biopic about his life, but if you want to see a movie in his honor this week, then I’d recommend the 2012 movie called Red Tails. Now, right up front, I’ll let you know that movie is not about Eugene Bullard. It’s about the Tuskegee Airmen during World War II, but the filmmakers honored Bullard’s memory by having the commander in the movie be named Col. A.J. Bullard. He’s played by Terrence Howard in the movie.

On October 11, 1884, Anna Eleanor Roosevelt was born in New York City, New York. She’s better known by her middle name: Eleanor Roosevelt, and as the First Lady of the United States during World War II while her husband, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, or just FDR as he’s called, was president. And yes, I did a double-check on that too…Eleanor Roosevelt’s maiden name was Roosevelt, and she married Franklin Roosevelt so both her maiden and married name was Roosevelt. Eleanor and Franklin were fifth cousins once removed. This week’s recommendation portraying Eleanor on screen is called The First Lady, the 2022 series from Showtime. Eleanor Roosevelt is played by Gillian Anderson.

On October 13^th, 1537, Jane Grey was born in Bradgate, England. At least, that’s the date often given for her birthdate—hers is one of those birthdays in history that we’re not 100% sure of. She’s often known as Lady Jane Grey, or sometimes as the Nine Days’ Queen, because she was Queen of England for only nine days. Her name earned more fame when Mark Twain used her as a character in his novel from 1882 called The Prince and the Pauper. So, most movie adaptations of that will have someone playing Lady Jane. My recommendation this week, though, is the 2022 series from Starz called Becoming Elizabeth. As you can tell from the title, it’s more about Queen Elizabeth I, but Lady Jane is played by Bella Ramsey in that series. So, if you’re a fan of The Last of Us, maybe you’ll enjoy seeing Bella star in another series.

‘Based on a True Story’ movie that released this week

This week’s movie premiere from history is the film directed by Paul Greengrass called Captain Phillips, which was released in the U.S. 11 years ago this week on October 11^th, 2013.

In the movie, Tom Hanks portrays the lead role of Captain Richard Phillips, who takes command of the cargo ship called the Maersk Alabama. Despite the name, the Maersk Alabama’s home port according to the movie is the Port of Salalah in Oman.

When he’s given orders to take the vessel to Mombasa, Kenya, that takes him past the Horn of Africa where there has been some known pirate activity. So, along with the help of the first officer, Michael Chernus’ version of Shane Murphy, as they get underway, they go through their security protocols.

That’s when they notice a couple small boats following their massive ship.

Fearing they’re pirates, Captain Phillips calls for aid from a nearby warship. Of course, there’s not really a warship, but the pirates don’t know that. And Captain Phillips knows the pirates don’t know that, but he also knows they’re listening to the radio, so he thinks maybe if they think the military is nearby that’ll scare them off.

And it sort of works. One of the two skiffs turns around, while the other loses power in the wake of the huge cargo ship.

But they’re not in the clear yet, because the next day, one of the skiffs filled with pirates returns to the chase. Since their boat is much smaller, it’s also faster, and before long the armed pirates manage to attach their ladder to the Maersk Alabama and climb aboard despite the best efforts of the cargo ship’s crew to stop them. Then, the pirates seize control of the ship at gunpoint, and very soon it becomes clear to Captain Phillips that the pirates intend to ransom off the crew and ship for the insurance money.

The leader of the pirates is a guy named Abduwali Muse, who is played by Barkhad Abdi in the movie.

Meanwhile, it doesn’t take long for the U.S. military to actually find out the Maersk Alabama has been taken over by the pirates. After all, they’re wanting the insurance money, so the pirates aren’t trying to hide the fact that they took over the ship. So, the U.S. Navy launches a destroyer called USS Bainbridge under the command of Frank Castellano. He’s played by Yul Vazquez in the movie.

Things descend into a fight between the mostly unarmed crew and very well-armed pirates aboard the cargo ship. I say “mostly” unarmed, because we do see things like the crew using a knife to try and hold Muse hostage and force all the pirates to leave in a lifeboat. But, they won’t do that unless Captain Phillips goes with them. Trying not to make matters worse, Phillips goes along with the pirates in exchange for them leaving the rest of the crew on the Maersk Alabama.

Meanwhile, on the lifeboat, the pirates beat and blindfold Captain Phillips in what has now become a kidnapping situation as well. We see Bainbridge enter the picture and try to get to a peaceful solution. As part of that process, they hook up the lifeboat to Bainbridge so it’s being towed by the destroyer while inviting the pirate leader, Muse, to Bainbridge to negotiate. He agrees, and in the movie, we also see SEAL Team Six from the U.S. Navy setting up snipers to try and take out the pirates.

Near the climax at the end of the movie, the U.S. Navy pulls off a perfectly timed maneuver that involves stopping their tow of the lifeboat to throw the pirates off balance just as three snipers from the destroyer take three simultaneous shots and kill three of the pirates at the exact same moment.

The movie ends with Muse being the only pirate left alive. He’s arrested and taken into custody as Captain Phillips is rescued from the lifeboat and treated for his injuries.

The true story behind Captain Phillips

Before we compare the true story with the movie, I do want to point out that we did a deep dive into the full movie back on episode #28 of Based on a True Story so I’ll link that in the show notes if you want to give that a listen as well.

For today’s purposes, though, let’s start with the overview of the people in the story.

The character Tom Hanks is playing in the movie, Captain Phillips, is a real person. As of this recording, he’s still alive. Actually, it’s his book that the movie is based on. That book is called A Captain’s Duty: Somali Pirates, Navy SEALS, and Dangerous Days at Sea. I’ll throw a link to that in the show notes, too.

The pirate leader, Abduwali Muse, is also a real person who is also still alive as of this recording—he’s currently serving a 33-year prison sentence in Terre Haute, Indiana, which means unless something changes between now and then, Muse will be released in 2038, by which time he’ll be 48 years old.

That’s right, Muse was just 18 years old when all this happened in April of 2009. Or…maybe he was 19, but we’ll get to that in a moment.

Some of the other characters in the movie are real people, too, like USS Bainbridge’s Commander Frank Castellano, and some other more background crew in the movie are based on real people but with some fictionalization thrown in to help tell the story.

But, of course, there’s always more to the true story that we don’t see in the movie.

So, let’s go back to April 8^th, 2009, because that’s when our true story starts.

Maersk Alabama really is the name of the ship that was hijacked by pirates that day. The name comes from the Danish shipping company headquartered out of Copenhagen called Maersk. They’re a massive company who has been around since 1928, although it’s worth mentioning that Maersk Alabama was registered under a U.S. flag.

That’s because technically Maersk Alabama in 2009 was run by Maersk Line, a division of Maersk that’s based out of Norfolk, Virginia, in the United States. As a little side note, after the timeline of the movie, Maersk Alabama was sold to another company and renamed to MV Tygra. As of this recording, she’s still in operation on the seas.

While I didn’t notice the movie mentioning this, in the true story when she was hijacked that marked the first time a ship bearing the U.S. flag was seized by pirates since the 1800s.

With that said, though, the movie is correct to show the crew on Maersk Alabama preparing for a possible pirate attack because Maersk Alabama was actually the sixth ship to be attacked by pirates just that week! The other ships just weren’t bearing a U.S. flag, but everyone was aware of how dangerous the waters were.

The movie is correct to show that she was heading from Salalah, Oman, to Mombasa, Kenya. On board, she was carrying 401 containers of primarily food aid for refugees in countries like Kenya, Rwanda, Uganda, Somalia, etc.

Any training the crew had done prior turned into reality when the true story behind the movie began on April 8^th, 2009. Just like we see in the movie, that’s when four pirates attacked the ship armed with AK-47s. We learned that Muse was just 18 or 19 years old at the time of the attack, and that actually became an issue in the subsequent trial because at first there were questions about whether or not he could even be tried as an adult.

According to Robert Gates, who was the U.S. Secretary of Defense at the time, the four pirates were between 17 and 19 years old, although Muse’s own mother said he was only 16 at the time. At the time, some suggested perhaps she said that so Muse wouldn’t be tried as an adult, but regardless, for our purposes today it’s safe to say all the pirates who boarded Maersk Alabama that day were teenagers.

The movie is also correct to show the purpose for the pirates was to get the insurance money for Maersk Alabama. As we just learned, there were a lot of other ships captured at the time—actually, even the fishing vessel the pirates used as their own “mother ship,” so to speak, was one they hijacked. That was the FV Win Far 161, which was a 700-tonnes Taiwanese ship that Somali pirates captured on April 6^th, 2009, and then used to launch the smaller skiffs to hijack even more ships.

We don’t see any of that in the movie since it’s mostly focused on Maersk Alabama, but FV Win Far 161 was eventually released by pirates in early 2010.

Back to the true story aboard Maersk Alabama, though, after being boarded by the pirates, the ship’s Chief Engineer and First Assistant Engineer, Mike Perry and Matt Fisher, respectively, worked to remove steering and engine control from the bridge, and shut down the ship’s systems. In other words, the ship went dead in the water.

Just like we see in the movie, the pirates boarded the ship and went right to the bridge. That’s where they captured Captain Phillips along with other crew, and they also found out they weren’t able to control the ship thanks to what Perry and Fisher did down below. And as we just learned, the pirates were very young and they were not highly trained engineers like Perry and Fisher so couldn’t really do anything about it themselves without help from Maersk Alabama’s crew—which, obviously, they weren’t inclined to do!

Of course, that doesn’t mean the pirates didn’t try to convince the ship’s crew to get it going again. While they held Captain Phillips in the bridge, Muse went in search of the rest of the cargo ship’s crew to do exactly that. And as you can probably guess, that was something the pirates intended to do at gunpoint.

But here’s where the movie shows the Maersk Alabama crew start fighting back, because for all they knew the pirates were going to sail the ship back to Somalia if they got it moving again…and that wouldn’t bode well for them.

Before I mentioned Mike Perry, the Chief Engineer; he’s played by David Warshofsky in the movie. While I didn’t mention this earlier, while the pirates were boarding the ship and trying to figure out why the controls didn’t work in the bridge, the rest of the Maersk Alabama’s crew hid in a secure hold in the ship. Remember, they had prepared for a possible pirate attack, so kind of like you have a plan for where you’ll go in case of emergency—so did they.

Mike Perry, though, hid himself outside of the secure room. His plan was to try and capture one of the pirates so he could trade the pirate for Captain Phillips. Basically, a prisoner exchange. So, when Muse walked by looking for crew, Perry jumped him with a knife and managed to subdue the teenager. Then, they offered the exchange to the pirates in the bridge. The movie gets that pretty accurate, too, because the offer was for the pirates to get their leader back, Muse, as well as all the cash they had on the ship—there was $30,000 in the ship’s safe, and then they also offered the pirates the use of the Maersk Alabama’s lifeboat for them to get off the ship.

Keeping in mind, again, that the pirates were teenagers who no doubt were feeling a little overwhelmed and unable to move the massive ship, they agreed to the deal. So, the crew released Muse with the cash and expected the pirates to hold up their end of the bargain.

But, things didn’t go according to plan. Instead, the pirates took Captain Phillips into the 28-foot lifeboat with them. So, now, the four pirates are off the Maersk Alabama, but now it’s also a hostage situation.

In the movie, we see the U.S. Navy destroyer USS Bainbridge get called into the picture around this time, and that is true. But, in the true story, the USS Bainbridge was not the only U.S. Navy ship involved—because, as we learned earlier—the Maersk Alabama was also not the only ship that had been hijacked by Somali pirates recently. So, there was a U.S. Navy presence in the area. There was another frigate, USS Halyburton, who was sent to deal with the hostage situation alongside Bainbridge.

And something else we don’t see in the movie is that the pirates’ ships also started to converge on the situation. Remember when we talked about the Taiwanese fishing vessel the pirates used as a “mother ship” of sorts? Well, as the Navy arrived on scene, so, too, did about four other ships all under pirate control. On those four ships were the crew held hostage by the pirates, so over 50 hostages from countries around the world.

Since Maersk Alabama was the only U.S. ship hijacked, though, and Captain Phillips was the captain of said ship…that’s why the movie’s story focuses more on the U.S.-centric version of the story. Also, because it’s based on Captain Phillips’ book, of course.

So, if you recall, the pirates boarded Maersk Alabama on April 8^th. On April 9^th, the Bainbridge and Halyburton arrived on scene and stayed just outside of the range of fire from the pirates. Instead, they used UAVs to get intelligence on the lifeboat and the situation as a whole.

By the way, the lifeboat is a covered lifeboat. The movie shows it pretty well, but if you’re like me and you think of the Titanic lifeboats—well, this happened in 2009 and not 1912, so obviously the lifeboat is a little different haha! Before long, the Navy made contact with the lifeboat and started to try negotiating with the pirates for Captain Phillips’ release—as well as the 54 other hostages on the other pirate-held boats.

On April 10^th, another Navy ship, the Wasp-class amphibious assault ship USS Boxer arrived at the scene, and negotiations continued with the pirates. The next day, everything changed when the pirates fired on USS Halyburton. No one was hurt, and Halyburton didn’t shoot back—no doubt not wanting to make things worse. I mean, Halyburton isn’t the world’s largest military ship, but it’s still a 453-foot-long battle-ready military ship with an array of armaments that could easily take out the 28-foot lifeboat if they really wanted to.

With Captain Phillips still held hostage on the lifeboat, though, Halyburton held their fire.

We don’t really see this in the movie, but in the true story’s timeline, April 11^th was also when Maersk Alabama finally arrived in Mombasa, Kenya, with the rest of the ship’s crew who had gotten it back underway after the pirates made their escape in the lifeboat. The U.S. Navy was involved in that, too, and escorted Maersk Alabama the rest of the way to ensure no other pirates would try to capture her again.

Meanwhile, back in the hostage situation, when the pirates fired on Halyburton, the U.S. Navy’s position changed from attempting to negotiate a release, to arranging a rescue. To help with that, they managed to convince Muse to come aboard Bainbridge for the negotiations the following day, April 12^th.

And so, the end of the movie is quite accurate to the end of the true story.

With Muse aboard Bainbridge, three SEAL Team Six snipers coordinated to simultaneously shoot the remaining three pirates on the lifeboat at the same time. Then, the Navy swooped in to rescue Captain Phillips, and with no more hostage to negotiate, Muse was arrested aboard Bainbridge. They never did find the $30,000, although some conspiracies have arisen that perhaps members of the SEAL Team Six took it before anyone else noticed—that’s never been proven one way or the other, though.

After the situation was handled at sea, Muse was taken back to the United States where he stood trial. Despite what his mother said about him being 16, Muse himself said he was 18, so he was tried as an adult. A few weeks later, in May of 2009, Captain Phillips sold his story to be told in what would become both the 2010 memoir from Phillips as well as the 2013 Paul Greengrass-directed movie we’ve learned about today.

September 10th, 490 BCE. Marathon, Greece.

We’re kicking off this week with the movie 300: Rise of an Empire, and as soon as the opening credits are over, Lena Headey’s character, the wife of the Spartan King Leonidas from the first 300 movie.

Lena Headey’s character is Queen Gorgo, and to start Rise of an Empire, she’s addressing many of the Spartan soldiers who fought with her late husband. These soldiers are all carrying spears, shields, and, of course, the impressive physique of bare-chested six packs that we saw the Spartans have in the first 300 movie.

Sixteen Spartan soldiers surround Queen Gorgo as she addresses them, but there are more like 36 or 37 spears visible, suggesting even more soldiers behind those we can see as they hear their queen speak.

She tells them her husband, Leonidas, their king, and the brave 300 are dead.

As she continues to speak, she moves among the men showing even more soldiers beyond the numbers I just mentioned, but it’s nearly impossible to count them as the camera shifts angles. As the camera changes, though, we can see sails above Queen Gorgo’s head. We can hear the creaking of a wooden ship, which tells us they’re all on a ship.

She tells them it was King Darius who came to take our land ten years ago when youth still burned in our eyes. Ten years ago, this war began as all wars do: With a grievance.

Then, the movie takes us back to ten years earlier.

Mud is being kicked up by feet running in slow motion. The particles of mud and dirt flung high into the air just hanging as time moves at a snail’s pace. As we see more bare-chested men wearing helmets, blue robes on two men leading the charge to the right side of the screen, all with the round shields and weapons: Swords and spears.

Queen Gorgo’s voiceover continues, saying King Darius was annoyed by the notion of Greek freedom and has come to Greece to bring them under submission.

As thunder claps and lighting strikes, the camera changes yet again. Now we can see a vast mountainous landscape, on a dark and stormy night. In the foreground, numerous ships can be seen, some still in the waters, and other right along the shores. All of them have their sails put up, suggesting the ships are disembarking onto the beach beyond.

And on the beach beyond, tiny black dots can be seen. It’s nighttime so impossible to see all of them individually, but each dot is a soldier from one of the ships, giving the overall scene an enormous size. The beach they’re all on leads to a pathway between right mountains, right in the center of the movie’s frame, and in the distance are even more black dots: Greek soldiers charging at Darius’ men as soon as they arrive on the Greek shores.

Queen Gorgo’s voiceover confirms this as she says Darius made landfall at the field of Marathon with an invading force which outnumbered the Greek defenders 3-to-1.

Rain continues to pour down in slow motion as the camera zooms in on the same Greek soldiers we saw in slow motion earlier, this time they’re coming over the muddy horizon and charging directly toward the camera. A bolt of lighting and the loud thunderclap in the stormy sky behind the advancing soldiers suggests even the sky is angry.

She says at dawn the hopeless Athenians do the unthinkable: They attack.

We see King Darius turn around, looking in the direction of the Greek soldiers coming over the horizon. Other soldiers are taking off belongings from the ship. Sure, they’re all soldiers, too, but none of them are ready to fight.

And Queen Gorgo’s voiceover also confirms this, as she says the outnumbered Greeks attacked the weary Persians as soon as they landed after their month-long trip at sea gave them shaky legs. We see some of the Persian soldiers grab spears and swords in haste and start to face the approaching enemy.

Then, the camera cuts to the architect of this mad strategy: A little-known Athenian soldier named Themistokles. The camera focuses in on a single soldier as Gorgo says he gives the Persians a taste of Athenian shock combat.

Sullivan Stapleton is the actor who plays Themistokles in the movie.

The very stylized movie was still going in slow motion this whole time, but now as the Greek and Persian armies clash time speeds back up to normal pace as the sound of swords clanging, and the sound of two fighting armies can be heard against the thunder and rain.

It looks like a bloodbath.

The Persians are caught off guard, and the Greeks run right through most of them. Slicing his way through the Persians is Themistokles, who we can tell now was one of the soldiers wearing a blue robe. That conveniently makes him a lot easier to pick out among the two forces fighting each other in the rain and mud.

Shifting between real-time speed and slow motion, Themistokles fights his way to the shores and the Persian ships. Wasting no time, he runs right up one of the ship’s ramps, slashing and killing everyone on board.

The camera cuts to show King Darius in one of the ships just off shore. He’s watching the chaos unfold in front of him, clearly enraged at what he’s seeing. Back to Themistokles, and he jumps back onto the beach, leaving the ship he was on. There must be no one left to kill on that one.

He races along the beach, killing more and more Persians. An arrow slices at his arm. More arrows hit his shield. Throwing his sword to kill one of the archers, Themistokles charges at the other. Another arrow, this time he turns his head to let it glance off his helmet as he tackles and kills the archer.

Queen Gorgo’s voiceover has returned, saying all of this was for a crazy Greek experiment called democracy. A free Greece.

Slamming the archer to the ground, Themistokles seems to have reached the end of the beach, but he takes off his helmet to look out at the Persian ships still in the waters. On one of those ships is King Darius, still watching the slaughter in front of him. For a moment, Themistokles and King Darius stare directly at each other from across the water between them.

Finally, Darius turns away as if to say the Persians are about to leave—at least for now.

Queen Gorgo’s voiceover says through the chaos, a moment appeared. And Themistokles took advantage of that moment. We see him pick up the bow from the archer he just killed. Then, pulling back an arrow, he lets off one shot.

Back on the Persian ship, Darius has his back turned now and doesn’t notice the arrow coming toward him. But someone else on the ship does. Another man on the other side of the ship runs in slow motion as he screams, “Nooooooo!”

Queen Gorgo says this is the moment that will ring throughout the centuries and make Themistokles a legend.

The camera follows the arrow he shot as it flies across the water, aimed directly at King Darius. From the other side of the boat, the running man reaches Darius just in time the arrow hits him in the chest, knocking him backward into the other man’s arms. He glares at Themistokles with a burning hatred that tells you there will be vengeance.

Then, Queen Gorgo tells us who this other man is: Darius’ son, Xerxes.

She goes on to say that for all the praise that would be heaped upon Themistokles, he knew he made a mistake. Xerxes’ eyes had the stink of destiny about them. He knew he should’ve killed that boy.

But, instead, after delivering the fatal arrow to King Darius, we see Themistokles simply turn and walk away.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie 300: Rise of an Empire

As immersive as the fictional portrayal is, as we begin separating fact from fiction, let me start with a blanket statement that I’m sure you already know but it’s still worth saying: 300: Rise of an Empire is the sequel to 300, which itself was based on a comic book of the same name.

That’s why it shifts between slow motion and real-time speed, and gives unrealistic streams of blood flying around the scene as soldiers swing their swords.

Even once we separate ourselves from that side of things, another major caveat we have to keep in mind is that we’re talking about something that happened 2,514 years ago. Do we know if Themistokles and King Darius had a stare down across the water like we see in the movie? That’s not the kind of thing that gets documented so of course we don’t know for sure. But, I bet if you had to guess how realistic that sort of moment is, I bet you would come to the same conclusion that I would and guess that’s not very realistic at all, haha!

With those major caveats aside, there really was a major battle at Marathon between the Greeks and Persians that happened 2,514 years ago this week.

Lena Headey’s character, Queen Gorgo, really was King Leonidas I’s wife. He was, of course, famous for the Battle of Thermopylae that was told in the movie 300—which we looked at on episode 5 of Based on a True Story.

Another element of truth the movie shows correctly is the timeframe between the events. We hear Queen Gorgo talk about Leonidas and the 300 being dead, and also how it was ten years ago that Darius brought the fight to our shores at Marathon.

The legend of the 300 at Thermopylae happened in 480 BCE, while the Battle of Marathon was ten years earlier in 490 BCE.

But here’s where the movie takes some creative license, because even though the timeline means Queen Gorgo was alive during both battles, we don’t really know how involved she was with the army to travel with them on ships and telling the story of Marathon to soldiers like we see her doing in the beginning of the movie.

It’s certainly plausible. Especially because we do know she held a position of importance in Greek society at the time, not only because of her husband being king, but also because she was in her own right an intelligent woman. For example, a lot of what we know about her comes from an ancient Greek historian named Herodotus, and even though he didn’t write about women often, one story he told was how Gorgo helped decipher a hidden message warning the Greeks of a Persian invasion. That makes her one of the first female cryptanalysts in recorded history.

Back to the movie’s version of the Battle of Marathon, though, one of the things Gorgo mentions in her voiceover is that the Persians outnumbered the Greeks 3-to-1.

And that’s about right. Historical estimates put the Greeks at about 11,000 soldiers while the Persians had somewhere between 20,000 to 30,000 soldiers carried by 600 or so ships called triremes. So, of course, the movie uses the higher number to make the contrasts between forces seem even greater.

So, it is true that the Greeks here heavily outnumbered.

Did they attack as soon as the Persians landed in Greece to help overcome the mismatch in numbers?

No, they didn’t. That part of the movie is not true.

And now it’s time for the part of the true story that maybe you’ve heard before from a very different legend. After all, you’ve heard of the long distance run of 26.2 miles, or 42 kilometers, being called a marathon. As the legend goes, that’s the distance the Greek messenger Pheidippides ran from Marathon to Athens to inform them of the victory at Marathon. So, obviously that would’ve happened after the battle if he informed them of the Greek victory.

While that is the legend, according to Herodotus, that run actually happened before the battle…and he didn’t run from Marathon to Athens, but he ran the 150 miles, or 240 kilometers, from Athens to Sparta to ask for their help for the impending Persian invasion. Actually, that’s how we know it happened this week in history, because the historical records tell us the Spartans couldn’t march until after their holy day.

Oh, and as a fun little bit of trivia, as of this recording the world record holder for a marathon is Kelvin Kiptum from the 2023 Chicago Marathon where he had an average speed of about 13 mph, or 21 km/h. Of course, that’s a 26.2 mile marathon. It’s said that Pheidippides did his 150-mile run from Athens to Sparta in two days. That’s an average pace of 4.7 mph, or 7.5 km/h. A runner named Yiannis Kouros holds the ultramarathon record of 150 miles in 22 hours, 52 minutes, and 55 seconds in 1984. That’s an average pace of 6.6 mph, or about 10.6 km/h.

Meanwhile, I’d probably pass out from exhaustion way back by the starting line so I’m glad they sent Pheidippides instead of me haha!

Back to the Battle of Marathon, though, the reasons for the Greek’s ultimate victory is still something historians debate, but as with most things in history there’s not likely to be just one thing; there were a number of factors that went into the final Greek victory at Marathon.

But let’s start breaking it down by looking at something the movie doesn’t show: Their armor.

While the actors in the movie are obviously in such great shape they can use their six packs as armor, it’s probably not a surprise that the real Greek army actually wore more armor than we see in the movie.

At least, sort of.

Here’s where the true story really gets more complex than the fictional one from the movie, because the Greek army consisted of a lot of citizen-soldiers called hoplites. After all, ancient Greece wasn’t really unified into the country of Greece that we think of today. It was made up of city-states that banded together when they needed to fight off shared enemies like the Persians. That’s why you’ll find references to the Athenians, the Spartans, and so on…they’re all Greek, but they’re also independent city-states.

On top of that, because Greek hoplites were essentially civilians called into military service when needed they often weren’t trained well and they usually wore whatever armor they could afford.

“Usually” is the key word there, because the Greek general in charge of the force that went out to face the Persians at Marathon had all his men equipped as hoplites for what many say was the first time in Greek history.

Oh, that general’s name was Miltiades and he isn’t in the movie at all.

Even though the armor the Greek hoplites wore was quite different than the lack-of-armor we see in the movie, the Greek’s armor was a lot lighter than the Persian’s armor. That was a major tactical advantage, because that let the Greeks move a lot faster than the Persians.

So, even though the Greeks didn’t charge the Persians as soon as they landed on shore, they did charge at the Persians. That wasn’t a common fighting tactic back then, so it was unexpected by the Persians. But, of course, simply charging your enemy isn’t going to overcome 3-to-1 odds on its own like the movie shows.

Speaking of what the movie shows, in her voiceover, Lena Headey’s version of Queen Gorgo says the architect behind the Greek’s decision to run out to meet the Persians before they could establish a foothold is a soldier named Themistokles.

While Themistokles really was someone who fought at Marathon, the commander of the Greek armies was the general I mentioned before: Miltiades.

Other Greek generals weren’t sure if they should attack the Persians or wait for them to attack them at Athens. After all, then they’d have the benefit of defensive positions in the city to help them fight against overwhelming odds.

As fate would have it, the Greeks found out the Persian cavalry happened to be away from the Persian camp. He took advantage of that situation, and ordered the attack on the Persian infantry.

That made the odds a little more in the Greek’s favor with the 11,000 Greeks attacking about 15,000 Persian infantry. On top of that, since the Greeks were the ones attacking they had more control over where the battle would be fought and they chose to attack on a mountainous and marshy terrain. So, the movie is correct to show mountains and mud…that helped ensure the Persian cavalry wouldn’t hear about the attack and return to route the Greeks while they were fighting the Persian infantry.

Of course, the Greeks were still outnumbered by the Persian infantry alone. That brings us to yet another reason for the real reason the Greeks won at Marathon: Phalanxes.

Basically, with long spears and large, bronze shields, the Greeks packed together so tightly that the Persians couldn’t penetrate with their shorter swords. General Miltiades also employed a tactic that proved to help the Greek victory, too. As the battle raged on, the center of the Greek forces collapsed to allow Persians to advance. Then, the wings of the Greek forces would collapse into the center so all of a sudden the Persians would find themselves surrounded.

While we don’t know for sure exactly how long the battle lasted, most historians believe it only took a few hours for the Persians to be routed and flee back to their ships. In that time, estimates place about 6,500 Persians killed while fewer than 200 Greeks lost their lives in the battle.

What of King Darius himself?

The movie got that wrong, too.

Darius I did not die at the Battle of Marathon. In fact, most historians say he wasn’t even there. Two generals named Datis and Artaphernes led the Persian forces. So, the movie’s plot line of Darius’ son Xerxes wanting revenge for his father’s death isn’t what happened.

In the true story, Darius I dead four years after the battle from natural causes. That’s when his son Xerxes took the throne. He did continue fighting the Greeks leading to a second Persian invasion of Greece that culminated in the Battle of Thermopylae the legend of the 300. But that wasn’t revenge for his father’s death. That was continuing the expansion of the Persian Empire that many consider to be the first global empire in history.

Something else we hear Queen Gorgo’s voiceover talk about in the movie is the idea of a Greek experiment called democracy.

That’s actually true, the ancient Greeks are often credited with what was at the time a new system of governance that was radically different than the monarchies, oligarchies, and tyrannies of the time. More specifically, it was the Athenians who laid down the foundations around 508 BCE.

So, when we take a step back from the Battle of Marathon itself and look at the bigger picture, you can see why so many point to Marathon as being a single day in history that changed the course of history.

Many of the founding figures of Western philosophy such as Socrates to Plato, Aristotle, came from Greece in the years, decades, and centuries afterward. If the Persians had wiped out the Greeks at Marathon, it’s not hard to imagine us living in a very different world today.

If you want to see how the Battle of Marathon is portrayed on screen, hop into the show notes to find where 300: Rise of an Empire is streaming now!

September 11, 2001. Herndon, Virginia.

Just saying that date, I’m sure you can guess what our next event is…although the location might throw you off. The reason for that location is because seven minutes into the 2006 movie called United 93, there’s some text on the screen to tell us we’re at the National Air Traffic Control Center in Herndon, Virginia. The camera follows a man into a room filled with screens and people—it looks a lot like what you’d expect an air traffic control center to look like.

As the man walks into the room, there are some claps and we can hear someone saying, “Congratulations on the promotion, Ben!”

That’s how we know the man is Ben Sliney. Others continue to clap or offer a congratulatory handshake as he makes his way further into the room. He smiles, thanking them, says “good morning” and jokes that he’s glad everyone is awake.

Standing in front of a bank of monitors, Ben talks to some of the other guys about the current situation. One of them says there’s a small system in the southwest, nothing much too big. Another system moved off to the east, so we have clear skies. Ben replies to the weather report saying that’s good, it’ll be a good day on the east coast.

The other guy points to something on the monitor. They can all see what it is, but from the angle the camera is facing Ben Sliney, we can’t see the monitor. But we don’t really have to, because the guy explains that the President is going to be moving to Andrews, so we’ll have restrictions in place around that. Pretty much standard ops. Ben doesn’t take his eyes off the monitor as he nods his approval.

Then, he smiles, and thanks them for their reports. They go back to work while Ben moves onto another area of the room. He looks at the monitors. Everything seems to be pointing to just another day.

The true story behind that scene in the movie United 93

We’ll stop our movie here because, as you might imagine, the entire movie is centered around the same day—and also because I’ve already done a deep dive into this movie over on episode #113, so if you want to learn more about the whole movie that’ll be linked in the show notes.

For today, though, the movie is true that September 11^th, 2001, started off as just another normal day at the National Air Traffic Control Center. But, as I’m sure you already know, it was not just another day.

The movie was also correct to suggest the President traveling to Andrews, referring to Andrews Air Force Base just outside Washington, D.C., where then-President George W. Bush was flying in from Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska.

And the movie was also correct to show a reason for Ben Sliney to be congratulated when he entered the room that day. September 11, 2001, just happened to be Ben Sliney’s very first day as the FAA’s National Operations Manager.

While the scene I just described takes place in Virginia that’s just because that’s where the control center is based. Officially known as the Air Traffic Control System Command Center for the Federal Aviation Administration, but since the government loves its acronyms that’s the FAA’s ATCSCC.

What we didn’t talk about in this segment were the four planes hijacked that morning. American Airlines Flight 11 hit the North Tower of the World Trade Center in New York City. United Airlines Flight 175 struck the South Tower of the World Trade Center. American Airlines Flight 77 hit the Pentagon in Washington D.C.

The fourth plane was a little different, though, because it didn’t hit the hijacker’s intended target.

After it was hijacked, United Airlines Flight 93 was headed toward Washington D.C. with an intended target of crashing into the U.S. Capitol building. But the passengers on United 93 revolted against the hijackers, and the plane crashed in a field near Stonycreek Township in Pennsylvania.

During the course of his first day as National Operations Manager for the FAA on September 11^th, 2001, Ben Sliney made the decision to land every plane in the air over the United States. That was the first time in U.S. history that’s ever happened.

Oh, and in the movie, Ben Sliney is played by…well, Ben Sliney. That’s right, the real person played himself in the movie.

Obviously, there’s a lot more to the true story, if you want to learn even more, queue up BOATS episode #113 linked in the show notes for as soon as you’re done watching the movie this week.

September 14, 1814. Baltimore, Maryland.

For our third event this week, we’ll pull a dramatization segment from a Smithsonian documentary.

The sky is gray and dreary. It almost looks like fog or some mist. In the foreground, a massive American flag riddled with holes is flapping in the wind.

The camera cuts to three men now. One of them is wearing a uniform, but he’s more in the background. The focus is on one of the two men not in military uniform—in particular, one of the men seems to be pacing around nervously as he’s looking off in the foggy, gray distance.

With a slightly different camera angle now, we can see the three men are standing on the deck of a ship. The pacing man is running his hand through his hair now, as he continues to look off frame.

The camera backs up to further away now, and we can see there are four ships. The closest one fires its cannons, followed by another blast from one of the ships further in the distance. Now the camera cuts back to the American flag flapping in the hazy sky.

The true story behind that scene in the movie A Star-Spangled Story

That short sequence comes from a documentary called A Star-Spangled Story: Battle for America, and event it’s showing is when Francis Scott Key got his inspiration for a poem called, “The Defence of Fort M’Henry” after seeing the flag on Saturday this week.

You probably know his poem by another name: “The Star-Spangled Banner.”

Francis Scott Key is the guy who I mentioned pacing and running his hands through his hair in the movie. In the true story, Key was a lawyer who went to the British along with another man named Colonel John Stuart Skinner to ask for the release of Key’s friend who had been captured by the British in late August.

Key and Skinner took a ship out to the British fleet that was near the city of Baltimore, Maryland. While they successfully negotiated for the release of Key’s friend, a man named Dr. William Beanes, the timing wasn’t great because the British were just about to launch an attack on Baltimore.

So, Key, Skinner, and Beanes were forced to watch as the British unleashed a 25-hour long bombardment on the American soldiers at Fort McHenry. At dawn on September 14^th, Key saw the huge American flag flying over Fort McHenry and started writing the poem. He didn’t write it all that day, though.

He jotted down a few lines, then completed it a few days later after the three men, Key, Skinner, and Beanes, were released from the British fleet. Most people are only familiar with the first verse of the poem that would go on to become “The Star-Spangled Banner.” Francis Scott Key wrote four verses:

O! say can you see, by the dawn’s early light,

What so proudly we hail’d at the twilight’s last gleaming,

Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight,

O’er the ramparts we watch’d, were so gallantly streaming?

And the rockets’ red glare, the bombs bursting in air,

Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there —

O! say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave

O’er the land of the free, and the home of the brave?

On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,

Where the foe’s haughty host in dread silence reposes,

What is that which the breeze o’er the towering steep,

As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?

Now it catches the gleam of the morning’s first beam,

In full glory reflected now shines on the stream —

‘Tis the star-spangled banner, O! long may it wave

O’er the land of the free, and the home of the brave.

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore

That the havock of war and the battle’s confusion

A home and a country should leave us no more?

Their blood has wash’d out their foul foot-steps’ pollution,

No refuge could save the hireling and slave,

From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave;

And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave

O’er the land of the free, and the home of the brave.

O! thus be it ever when freemen shall stand

Between their lov’d home, and the war’s desolation,

Blest with vict’ry and peace, may the heav’n-rescued land

Praise the power that hath made and preserv’d us a nation!

Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,

And this be our motto — “In God is our trust!”

And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave

O’er the land of the free, and the home of the brave.

Key’s poem, “The Defence of Fort M’Henry,” was published almost immediately along a notation that it goes to the tune of a popular British song written by John Stafford Smith called “Anacreon in Heaven.”

That was the official song of a club of amateur musicians in London called the Anacreontic Society.

Together, the words from “The Defence of Fort M’Henry” along with the tune of “Anacreon in Heaven” combined to become “The Star-Spangled Banner,” which was an immediate hit in America. It wasn’t for over a hundred years, in 1931, that “The Star-Spangled Banner” was officially adopted as the national anthem of the United States.

So, now you know the phrase “by dawn’s early light” in “The Star-Spangled Banner” is talking about this week in history: The dawn of September 14^th, 1814.

If you want to learn more about the true story, check out the documentary from the Smithsonian called A Star-Spangled Story: Battle for America. We started our segment at about ten minutes in, but as you can tell from the title the whole thing is about the story of the song, so this is a good week to watch it all!

Historical birthdays from the movies

It’s time for the birthday segment, about historical figures from the movies that were born this week in history.

On September 12^th, Henry Hudson was born somewhere in England. Maybe in London, and maybe in the year 1525, but as you can probably guess a lot about his early years aren’t known for sure. He was an explorer who is best remembered through some of the discoveries he made: The Hudson River in New York, or Hudson Bay in Canada. While there haven’t been a lot of movies about him, probably because we know so little about his early years or even his disappearance in 1611, there was a movie in 1964 called The Last Voyage of Henry Hudson if you want to watch something about him.

On September 13^th, 1660, Daniel Defoe was born in London, England. He was a writer who is perhaps best known for the 1719 novel called Robinson Crusoe. He was played by Ian Hart in the 1997 movie about the novel, also called Robinson Crusoe.

On September 15^th, 1254, another explorer was born in Venice: Marco Polo. Although perhaps you best know him as the namesake of the swimming game version of tag, the real Marco Polo made his mark on history by traveling along the Silk Road in Asia in the 1200s and returned to Europe and publicized the great wealth and size of the Eastern empires such as China, the Mongol Empire, Persia, India, Japan, and many more. Until Marco Polo’s book about his travels around 1300, most of Europe didn’t know much about the Asian countries. Netflix had a series about him simply called Marco Polo that ran for two seasons where Marco Polo is played by Lorenzo Richelmy.

‘Based on a True Story’ movie that released this week

Today is the 19^th anniversary of the release of the supernatural horror film directed by Scott Derrickson that claims to be ‘based on a true story’ called The Exorcism of Emily Rose.

Set in the modern era of when the movie was released in the 2000s, the storyline revolves around the trial of Father Richard Moore. He’s played by Tom Wilkinson in the movie, and in the movie, Father Moore is a priest charged with negligent homicide following the death of a 19-year-old college student named Emily Rose.

As you might’ve guessed by the title of the movie, Emily died during an exorcism performed by Father Moore. According to the movie, she’s a devout Catholic college student who begins experiencing terrifying symptoms that she believes are signs of demonic possession. Her symptoms include severe seizures, hallucinations, and physical contortions. Despite medical intervention and a diagnosis of epilepsy, her condition deteriorates, leading her and her family to seek help from the church. Father Moore believes them and agrees to perform an exorcism.

In the movie, the exorcism itself is where we really get into the supernatural horror elements. Emily starts speaking in different languages, has unbelievable strength, and her body moves in unnatural ways. Despite Father Moore’s best efforts, the exorcism does not work, and Emily passes away in the process.

That leads us to the courtroom, where we see the trial of Father Moore after Emily’s death. On one side, you have the prosecution, which is led by Campbell Scott’s version of Ethan Thomas, insists Emily had a medical condition and Father Moore’s exorcism denied her the treatment she needed. For the defense, Laura Linney’s version of Erin Bruner, argues that Emily actually was possessed by a demon. She argues that it was the demon that killed Emily, not Father Moore.

The movie is an interesting clash of religious faith, science, and the law—you know, the kind of things everyone agrees about all the time.

And in the movie, even the jury can’t seem to agree. Their verdict is to declare Father Moore guilty, but also to ask Mary Beth Hart’s version of Judge Brewster to give Father Moore time served. Judge Brewster agrees, and Father Moore is allowed to go free despite the guilty verdict.

The true story behind The Exorcism of Emily Rose

Shifting to the fact-checking, let’s start with the most obvious of inaccuracies in the movie: The title.

Instead of The Exorcism of Emily Rose, a more historically accurate title for the movie would be “The Exorcisms of Anneliese Michel.”

That’s because the real person the movie is based on is a 23-year-old German student teacher named Anneliese Michel, and in the true story, Anneliese had 67 exorcisms before she died on July 1^st, 1976.

Which brings up another inaccuracy in the movie: The timeline.

The true story happened in the 1970s, while the movie makes it more contemporary to when it was released in the 2000s.

So, with all of that said, it’s probably not too much of a surprise for me to say this movie is stretching the term “based on a true story” to its limits. But, to play devil’s advocate to what I just said, that doesn’t mean the concept of the movie is completely fictional.

What I mean by that is if you look at the people, places, timeline, and the location of the movie, sure it’s made up. However, the basic gist of a woman having an exorcism that led to her death and the Catholic Priest involved being put on trial for her death…that is true.

Born in 1952, and raised in a devout Roman Catholic family, Anneliese Michel was a deeply religious woman. Her childhood wasn’t anything out of the ordinary, but all that changed in 1968 when, at the age of 16, Anneliese started having some severe convulsions.

Naturally, she went to a doctor first and before long she was diagnosed with epilepsy and depression. Once she was diagnosed, she started receiving treatments with little to no effect. Of course, even that isn’t all that uncommon…people can get misdiagnosed or have medical treatments that don’t help with whatever ails them.

For the deeply religious Anneliese, whatever ailed her started giving her some uncommon symptoms, though. She heard voices, and perhaps most terrifying of all, saw hallucinations that included demonic faces. Of course, when it comes to symptoms like that, it’s not like you can show other people the hallucinations you’re having, so that’s where those around Anneliese started to splinter into two different beliefs about what was happening to her.

On one side, you had the doctors and medical staff trying to help Anneliese through scientific methods while on the other side you had Anneliese and the Michel family. As the medical treatments failed to help, and Anneliese only grew worse, they started to believe more and more that this was beyond anything medical.

Or, in other words, I suppose you could say they lost faith in medicine and returned to their religious faith. So, they went to the Catholic Church to ask for help. At first, they were rejected. After all, the Catholic Church also tends to default to a medical explanation before jumping to a spiritual one.

And, as I alluded to before, Anneliese had been diagnosed by medical professionals with temporal lobe epilepsy, which has been known to cause many of the symptoms Anneliese had like the seizures and hallucinations.

Earlier, I mentioned Tom Wilkinson’s character in the movie, Father Moore. He’s not a real person for all the aforementioned reasons of time, place, people changes, etc. but Father Moore’s character in the movie is based on two Catholic priests named Father Ernst Alt and Father Wilhelm Renz.

Father Alt was the local priest for the Michel family, so he likely spent the most amount of time with Anneliese, and as such he was crucial in helping convince the Catholic Church to change their mind. Eventually, in September of 1975, Bishop Josef Stangl approved the exorcism under the condition that Father Alt and Father Renz adhere to strict secrecy about the whole matter.

On an average of a couple times a week from September of 1975 until June of 1976, Father Alt and Father Renz performed exorcisms on Anneliese. That’s why there were so many exorcisms performed on her. It wasn’t a one-and-done thing. And the movie is correct to suggest some of the things like speaking in multiple languages, abnormal bouts of strength, and strange contortions of her body.

While there’s no footage of the real exorcism of Anneliese publicly available that I could find to compare with what we see in the movie, I think it’s safe to say the movie does what movies love to do and exaggerate things a lot.

We know Catholic priests used the 1614 Rituale Romanum, because that’s basically the Catholic Church’s instruction manual for priests performing exorcisms. As the name implies, that’s from 1614, so I don’t think the exorcisms they actually performed were anything like what we see in the movie…although, again, I’ll have to play devil’s advocate to myself, because the Catholic Church updated that 84-page document for the first time in 1998.

So, from 1614 until 1998, the rite of exorcism remained the same. And since the movie takes a true story from the 1970s into the 2000s, I suppose they’d be using the updated version. And while my Latin is rusty to the point of non-existence, all my research suggests there wasn’t a lot changed. Just some minor things like updating descriptions of what Satan looks like since now the Church teaches Satan is a spirit without a body.

Unfortunately, even the exorcisms couldn’t help Anneliese.

In her final months, she stopped eating. She stopped drinking. In addition to everything else she was going through, Anneliese started to suffer from severe malnutrition. Then, on June 30^th, 1976, Father Renz performed yet another exorcism…one that would be her last.

Anneliese Michel died on July 1^st, 1976.

The movie is also correct to show a trial after her death. Father Alt and Father Renz were charged with negligent homicide just like we see Father Moore charged with in the movie. In a 1978 article from The Windsor Star newspaper, Father Alt said he never thought Anneliese was “dangerously ill.”  In the same article, Father Renz said he didn’t call a doctor because, “the exorcism ritual expressly states that clergymen should not burden themselves with medical matters.”

I’ll add a link to the article in the show notes if you want to read it, because it also talks about how the Michel family sued the five doctors who helped treat Anneliese because they drew up a report of her case—something the Michel family said was a violation of doctor-patient confidentiality.

In the end, the verdict in the true story was the same for the two priests as it is in the movie for Father Moore: Guilty. The sentencing was not the same as the movie, though, because in the true story the priests were sentenced to six months in prison, with three years of probation.

And now you know a little more about the true story behind The Exorcism of Emily Rose!

August 19th, 1692. Salem, Massachusetts.

For our first movie, we’re traveling back to the time of the Salem Witch Trials from The Crucible, that 1996 film with Daniel Day-Lewis and Winona Ryder. To find the event from this week in history in the film, we’ll need to start at about an hour and 50 minutes into the movie.

“Now, Mr. Proctor. Did you bind yourself to the devil’s service?”

Daniel Day-Lewis’s character, John Proctor, is standing there across from Paul Scofield’s character, Judge Thomas Danforth.

Judge Danforth tells John that he must write it down so they can put it on the church door as a good example to bring them to God.

There are two women in a cart behind Judge Danforth, but he’s not looking at them. He looks at John and Elizabeth Proctor standing in front of him. Danforth is only talking to John, though.

He asks the question again.

“Did you bind yourself to the devil’s service?”

John pauses for a moment. Then he offers his reply, “I did.”

Judge Danforth turns to the women in the cart now, saying there’s no point in keeping the conspiracy. Confess with him!

Elizabeth Lawrence’s version of Rebecca Nurse is tied to the cart behind Judge Danforth. She bursts out, “It is a lie!”

Judge Danforth asks if John Proctor saw anyone else with the devil—Rebecca Nurse, Mary Easty, Giles Corey, Martha Corey?

John says no, he did not.

Anyone?

John: No, I did not.

Others around Judge Danforth tell him to let John sign and be done with it!

A moment’s pause. Then, a quill is handed to John Proctor. He looks at a piece of paper…and signs his name.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie The Crucible

That’s just the start of the whole sequence that that continues on—but it’s showing something that happened this week in history when five people were hung in what we now know as the Salem Witch Trials.

Although the movie’s portrayal of events are highly dramatized, it is correct to show that John Proctor—Daniel Day-Lewis’ character—was someone who was killed by hanging this week in history on August 19^th, 1692.

He was one of 19 total people who were executed by hanging throughout the duration of the witch trials that took place between February of 1692 and May of 1693.

Almost all of the accusations were circumstantial at best, and nothing that would hold up in a court of law today. There are a lot of people who think the true motivation started off small and innocent before spreading into landowners realizing they could take advantage of it to legally take the land and possessions of their neighbors.

Is that what really happened? Well, I guess that’s something that keeps the Salem Witch Trials at the forefront of our curiosities because there are so many debates about the true causes and motivations behind what happened.

Regardless of any of the circumstantial evidence, the baseless accusations or the religious fever that gripped the region—at the end of the day, there were over 200 people accused of witchcraft. 30 were found guilty. 19 people were executed by hanging, five people died in jail as a result and one man, Giles Corey, was tortured to death by being pressed—the slow process of adding stones on top of him until he was killed.

This all happened in the United States thanks to religious people who were so set in their ways that they were okay with killing their own neighbors simply because someone accused them of witchcraft.

When, in reality, those accusations have been analyzed over the centuries and there have been numerous explanations—and no matter what outcome you believe, at the end of the day, everyone can agree that there was no valid reason for the hysteria to kill their neighbors.

If you want to see the event that happened this week in history, though, look in the show notes for links to where you can watch The Crucible as well as listen to our deep dive into the historical accuracy of that movie back on episode #143 of Based on a True Story.

August 21st, 1961. Nashville, Tennessee.

For our next movie, we’re in the 1985 biopic called Sweet Dreams to see how it portrays Patsy Cline recording her now-famous song called “Crazy” in the studio. At about an hour and 21 minutes into the movie, we’re in the recording studio with four men and one woman. Almost immediately, there’s an oddity as the woman is holding herself up with a crutch.

No one is playing their instruments, but we can hear music playing…it must be something playing over the speakers in the studio. She hobbles over to the pianist, who is busy jotting down some notes.

She rests her crutch on the piano as the man keeps singing the song in the background, “I’m crazy for feeling so blue…”

She waves to the guys in the sound booth to cut the song.

She shakes her head.

“I don’t care how many times you play that; I can’t sing this man’s song.”

One of the men in the sound booth replies that no one wants her to—take it away from him. The pianist closest to her reaffirms this. To hell with the demo, steal it!

Cigarette in hand, she shakes her head again. “How am I supposed to do this song?”

The man in the studio replies, “Just like you always do, Patsy—your way!”

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie Sweet Dreams

I’ll be the first to admit the movie’s version may not make a lot of sense without watching the rest of it, but that short segment is how 1985’s Sweet Dreams depicts when Patsy Cline recorded her now-famous song “Crazy” in the studio.

That man on the demo? Another singer who was famous in his own right: Willie Nelson.

Of course, at the time, Nelson wasn’t famous. Quite the opposite. According to Nelson’s autobiography, part of the idea that inspired him to write the song “Crazy” had to do with how he felt during a time of his life when he was trying to support his family with unstable work.

In the movie, while Jessica Lange’s version of Patsy Cline is recording the song we hear her talking to one of the men in the control room named Bradley.

He’s played by Jerry Haynes in the movie, and there is a level of historical accuracy there because Owen Bradley really was Patsy Cline’s producer. In fact, it was Bradley who suggested the song for Patsy Cline after he heard it from one of Willie Nelson’s friends and colleagues, another song writer named Hank Cochran.

He’s not in the movie at all, but then again neither is Willie Nelson.

Patsy Cline recorded her version of “Crazy” starting on August 24^th, 1961, and the recording process took about a month: It wrapped up on September 15^th. Then, it was released in October of the same year, and it was an immediate hit.

Since Patsy Cline had just released another hit single earlier in the year called “I Fall Into Pieces,” after “Crazy” was released to such success, Billboard named Patsy Cline their Favorite Female Country Artist of 1961.

If you want to watch the recording process as it’s portrayed in the movie, check out the 1985 biopic about Patsy Cline’s life called Sweet Dreams. The recording of “Crazy” starts at about an hour and 21 minutes into the film.

And if you want to dig into Patsy’s life and tragic death just two years after the recording of “Crazy”, we covered that movie back in episode #95 which you’ll find linked in the show notes.

August 24th, 79 CE. Italy.

Our third event comes from ancient history, and a ten-year-old movie that’s named after the city it takes place in: Pompeii. We’ll start about an hour and six minutes into the movie as two men are sword fighting in an arena. While this part of the movie doesn’t tell us who they are, we can tell from the actors that the two men are played by Sasha Roiz’s character, Proculus, and Kit Harington’s character, Milo.

The sword fighting intensifies and every so often we can hear the crowd cheering as one of the two men gets a hit in on the other.

The camera cuts to Kiefer Sutherland’s character, Corvus, as he’s watching…all of a sudden, the building starts to rumble. Corvus looks around, trying to figure out what’s going on.

In the arena, Proculus knocks Milo down to the ground before he realizes everything is shaking. The cheers of the crowd change into screams as people start looking around at each other. We can hear the sound of cracking, although there doesn’t seem to be any visual damage yet.

Oh wait, I spoke too soon.

The camera pans up from the ground level of the arena and we can see pieces of the whole building start to collapse into piles of dust and debris. People are fleeing for the exits. The camera keeps panning up and in the distance behind the arena is a massive mountain. At the top of the mountain, there’s a burst as scores of smoke and ash spew into the sky.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie Pompeii

Shifting to our fact-checking portion of the segment, it is true that Mount Vesuvius erupted on August 24^th in the year 79 CE.

Well, maybe.

And the movie’s version of the story isn’t anything like what happened. For example, the characters are fictional, so of course their storyline is going to be fictional. But, the true story is one that we still don’t know fully, so the movie isn’t really trying to be more than transporting us to Pompeii to see how things might have happened for people who were there.

Because the truth is that we don’t know exactly what it was like. After all, it was almost 2,000 years ago.

1,945 years, as of this recording in 2024.

With that said, although the movie’s timeline focuses on the eruption in 79 CE, that’s not really where the true story begins.

There was a massive earthquake about 16 years earlier, in 63 CE, that caused a lot of damage to many of the buildings near Vesuvius. Today, most scientists and historians believe the earthquake was a bit of a warning sign. But, it’s not likely the local residents knew it to be a warning sign of something worse to come, and Romans loved the beautiful views along the shores of the Bay of Naples that Pompeii provided.

By the time the year 79 CE rolled around, there was around 20,000 people who lived in Pompeii. And while it doesn’t get as much attention, there was another town nearby called Herculaneum.

As a fun little fact, Herculaneum was actually rediscovered before Pompeii—in 1709, while Pompeii was discovered decades later in 1748.

Herculaneum was a smaller town with only about 5,000 residents at the time of the eruption, but most believe it was a vacation town for Roman elites and, by extension, a wealthier town than Pompeii.

Perhaps that’s why we’ve heard of Pompeii more, because there were a lot less human remains found in Herculaneum than Pompeii. Is that simply because there were fewer people in Herculaneum? Maybe.

Or maybe it’s because, even today, most of Herculaneum has yet to be uncovered—you see, part of the city lies underneath the modern-day city of Ercolano.

Or maybe it’s because Herculaneum consisted of more Roman elites than Pompeii, so they were able to flee while leaving less fortunate people behind.

Those are all speculations that people have had over the centuries but, of course, they’re purely speculation.

What’s not speculation is that Vesuvius’ eruption killed about 16,000 people in the region, with 2,000 of them being in Pompeii. And I’m sure you’ve seen photos of Pompeii—the manner in which many people who were killed by the ash tells a unique story in history, even if the destruction of an erupting volcano is not.

I’ll add a link to some in the show notes for this episode if you want to see them.

Men, women, and children were preserved the way they were that day—clutching valuables or arms wrapped around their loved ones.

The way the ash preserved the city is almost as if it was frozen in time. Approximately 2,000 of Pompeii’s residents never left, only to be rediscovered in 1748.

But, since we’re talking about the movie, there is one vitally important thing the filmmakers got wrong that you should know whenever you watch it.

And, to be fair, it’s not their fault they got it wrong.

You see, for almost that entire time, historians believed the date of the eruption took place this week in history. That’s because one of the people who survived was Pliny the Younger. He was only 17 at the time of the eruption, and although the uncle he lived with, Pliny the Elder, was one of the people killed at Pompeii, Pliny the Younger would go on to be an author whose writings have given us a lot of knowledge about what Roman life was like back then.

So, when Pliny gave us the date of the eruption as being August 24^th and 25^th. Since there was no archaeological finds to dispute that, there was no reason to question it.

That was true for centuries throughout history even up through the time of the movie because it wasn’t until 2018 that an archaeological find at Pompeii changed all of that.

It was a date.

Someone found the date of October 17^th inscribed at Pompeii.

Even more archaeological evidence found in 2018 included some fruits still on branches from autumn-bearing fruits. Of course, the movie was released in 2014, so the filmmakers were still operating under the belief that the eruption of Mount Vesuvius took place this week in history.

So, that’s why I thought this would still be a great movie to cover this week because if nothing else, the 2014 movie Pompeii is just another great example of how we’re always learning new things about history every day.

Or, to quote Italy’s culture minister, Alberto Bonisoli, after the date in October was found, and the fruits from autumn seemed to back up the evidence that Pompeii was still around in the beginning of October, he said: “Today, with much humility, perhaps we will rewrite the history books because we date the eruption to the second half of October.”

August 5th, 1305. Scotland.

We’ll start with one of the most popular of those ‘based on a true story’ movies, Braveheart, to learn about an event in history that happened 719 years today: William Wallace’s capture. About two and a half hours into the movie, we see Mel Gibson’s version of William Wallace is riding a horse into a village. Besides the castle, which seems to be a small castle—but a castle nonetheless—the rest of the village seems to be made of wood houses with straw roofs. A few villagers are scattered around, going about their daily business.

Inside the castle, Angus Macfadyen’s version of Robert the Bruce is pacing on top of a table when Wallace’s presence is announced. Robert turns and hops off the table. Following him outside is Craig, who is played by John Kavanagh in the movie.

Outside, we see Wallace still on his horse, passing by the castle’s open gate. Robert and Craig start descending the stairs from the castle, and Robert raises his hand to greet him. Wallace responds with a wave.

Robert and Craig continue walking down the stairs as Wallace starts to get off his horse. Hopping to the ground, someone leads the horse away just as Robert and Craig reach the bottom of the castle stairs. Then, the music in the movie reaches a moment of pause…

In the castle courtyard, Robert and Wallace are walking toward each other. The young boy leading the horse looks away suspiciously. Wallace notices this and he looks to the side. Robert notices it, too, and he turns to look at Craig. For his part, Craig looks as if he’s about to signal someone with a slight nod.

Wallace’s head turns back to Robert who yells out, “No!”

Just then, a rush of armed soldiers tackle William Wallace, knocking him to the ground. At least five or six soldiers are hitting him with their wooden clubs, not to kill him but to beat him into submission. Robert rushes forward, trying to push the soldiers off. “You lied! You lied!”

The soldiers start beating him, too. Craig rushes in, pulling Robert aside. As he covers Robert the Bruce with his own body, Craig yells to the soldiers, “Bruce is not to be harmed, that’s the arrangement!”

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie Braveheart

That’s the movie’s depiction of how William Wallace was captured by the English near Glasgow on August 5th, 1305.

And right up front, I should say that there are a lot of details about how William Wallace was captured that we just don’t know. It was 1305 after all, so we’re not going to know the amount of detail we do of more recent events.

With that said, while it is true that William Wallace was betrayed, it’s pretty safe to say what we see happening in the movie is not how it happened at all. There’s a memorial in the suburb of Glasgow called Robroyston where Wallace was captured, the plaque on it gives us some clues about just how different the real thing was:

“This memorial erected 1900 AD by public subscription is to mark the site of the house in which the hero of Scotland was basely betrayed and captured about midnight on 5th August 1305 when alone with his faithful friend and co-patriot Kerlie who was slain.

Wallace’s heroic patriotism as conspicuous in his death as in his life within nine years of his betrayal the work of his life was crowned with victory and Scotland’s independence regained on the field of Bannockburn.”

So, it happened about midnight. Not daytime like in the movie. It says he was with his faithful friend who was killed. Not alone, like we see in the movie. Other sources suggest he was sleeping in a cottage when they captured him, not walking to meet with Robert the Bruce.

But, that doesn’t mean there wasn’t a castle involved.

As the story goes, a Scottish nobleman by the name of Sir John Menteith conspired to capture William Wallace in exchange for land and titles. After William Wallace was captured in the cottage, he was taken to Menteith’s Dumbarton Castle.

Actually, come to think of it, the real castle looks more like what you’d think of as a castle than the one in the movie does, haha! I’ll include a photo of that in the Discord community so you can see for yourself what Dumbarton Castle looks like.

But if you want to watch the event as it was shown in the movie Braveheart you’ll find the sequence starting at about two hours, 27 minutes, and 21 seconds into the movie. We covered that movie many years ago on the podcast, so you can find our Braveheart episode at basedonatruestorypodcast.com/45

August 7th, 1882. Blackberry Creek, Kentucky.

For our next event this week, we’ll switch to the small screen and head a few minutes into the second episode or History Channel’s TV series called Hatfield & McCoys.

We’re outside. A few patches of green grass can be seen on the ground, but mostly there are brown leaves covering the ground and a few trees that look like they’ve already dropped their leaves for the season.

There are a number of different booths, tables, and wagons all set up to make a sort of crude circle. Modest decorations of red, white, and blue are strung between the circle, and if you look closely as the camera moves between the people milling about the event, there are signs hung up on some of the posts.

Does that one say “Thacker?” It’s hard to read as the camera is focusing mostly on the people dancing behind the pole the sign is hanging on. The next one is a lot easier to see. It reads:

District 2 Justice of the Peace
Vote Shadrick Osborn

That explains the red, white, and blue. This is an election.

It also seems to be a shooting contest, as some of the guys are taking aim at targets nearby.

Oh, and it’s a drinking party, too. Lots of the guys are carrying glasses filled with beer, or whiskey—we can’t tell what it is, but it’s clearly some sort of alcohol. Probably not a good thing to mix with shooting.

As time passes, the shooting continues to heat up between the competitors.

Then, we can see Kevin Costner’s version of Anse Hatfield walking arm-in-arm with his wife, Sarah Parish’s version of Levicy Hatfield. They walk one way while walking the other direction is Bill Paxton’s version of Randall McCoy walks arm-in-arm with his wife, Mare Winningham’s version of Sally McCoy. They pass by each other without saying anything or looking at each other.

From each side of the clearing surrounding by the circle of booths, the people start heckling the other side. One side seems to be the Hatfields, making fun of Randall McCoy. The other side seems to be the McCoys, making fun of Anse Hatfield.

The words start to escalate into name-calling. One of the McCoys warns one of the Hatfields about what he’s said, and taking off his coat he charges to the center of the circle. Others throw down their liquor and before long there’s a confrontation in the middle of the circle.

One of the men, Damien O’Hare’s version of Ellison Hatfield, tries to diffuse the situation and get the men to break up. It seems to work, and the Hatfields start walking back…then one of the McCoys marches up and punches someone in the back of the head. He falls to the ground. When he gets up, there are more words. More punches. Ellison tries to break it up again. Before long, it seems to be Ellison punching off the drunken McCoys as they keep coming at him.

Other Hatfields are just sitting back, drinking, and watching the fight as if it’s some sort of entertainment. And for a while, Ellison seems to be doing a good job of holding them off. In the fight, he seems to break one of the McCoys’ arms.

It looks like that’s Michael Jibson’s version of Phamer McCoy.

While on the ground, Phamer pulls out a knife with his good arm. He jumps on Ellison, stabbing him. It happens so fast, the other Hatfields watching and drinking don’t seem to realize the fight has escalated into something deadly. Ellison manages to get the man off him.

Then, Phamer pulls out a pistol. He turns, points it at Ellison, and pulls the trigger.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the TV series Hatfields & McCoys

Now it’s time for my favorite part: The fact-checking segment for when one of the most infamous family feuds in American history escalated into bloodshed.

Now, this is one of those events in history where we simply do not know the entirety of the true story. What we do know has to come from those who were there and, as you can probably guess, not everyone who was there had the same story to tell.

For one, witness testimony is never to be relied upon. Plus, this was in the 1800s in rural Kentucky, so it’s not like everything was documented.

On top of all of that, it was a feud. So, of course, those on the Hatfields side would recount the things that happened to favor their side while those on the McCoys side would favor their own side of the story.

With that historical caveat out of the way, for the most part, the History Channel’s series does a decent job of showing how it might’ve happened.

The name we see on the poster that I mentioned earlier, Shadrick Osborn, really was a real person. But, he’s not really involved in the true story we’re talking about today at all.

August 7^th, 1882 was an election day for the area in Kentucky, and there was plenty of alcohol that factored into the escalation of a pre-existing disdain between the families. We don’t really know what the spark was that caused the violence to start. Some sources say it was because of how the Hatfields treated Roseanna McCoy—the sister of the McCoy brothers that started the violence in the series. So, it might’ve been similar to what we see in the series.

Regardless of how it started, though, we do know that the violence escalated when Ellison Hatfield was stabbed multiple times. Some sources say it might’ve been as many as 24 stab wounds.

We also see Ellison getting shot in the series, and while people there did say that happened, it probably didn’t happen while he was still standing up like we see in the series. After being stabbed, it’s more likely Ellison was on the ground when he was shot. He didn’t die right away, but there also wasn’t anything that could be done.

And as you can probably guess, there was retaliation from the Hatfields. It was led by Ellison’s brother, Anse—he’s played by Kevin Costner in the series. After local law enforcement was called, the McCoy brothers were arrested.

Conveniently enough, some of those law enforcement officers just happened to be Hatfields. So, it’s probably not too much of a surprise that Anse and some of his other family and friends were able to get the McCoy brothers out of the law’s custody before they made it to the closest jail.

After Ellison Hatfield succumbed to his wounds, Anse and his posse of vigilantes killed the McCoy brothers. Some sources say they fired over 50 bullets into the three McCoys.

And as you can probably guess, there was retaliation from the McCoys. And so, the feud between the Hatfields and McCoys turned into an especially bloody one this week in history.

If you want to watch this as it happened in the History Channel series, the segment we started today with is about five minutes into the second episode of 2012’s Hatfields & McCoys miniseries.

August 7th, 1974. New York City, New York.

I think I forgot to mention in the last segment that anniversary is on Wednesday this week. Well, that’s the same for our next event. In fact, Wednesday marks the 50th anniversary of an event that was the subject of the Robert Zemeckis movie called The Walk.

We’ll start about an hour and a half into the movie, as the camera is overlooking the city, giving us a beautiful view of the buildings below. The sun is just starting to rise in the distance. In the foreground, stretching from left to right across the frame is a wire of some sort. We can’t see what’s on either end, but the wire is in focus leaving the cityscape below to be slightly blurry.

Slowly, the camera pans to the right. As it does, we can see what the wire is connected to as a massive metal structure starts to fill up the frame. The camera stops as a foot enters the top of the frame. Wearing what looks like a black slip-on shoe of some sort, the foot reaches down until it steps onto the wire. We can also see at least one leg of what we can assume are black pants.

Then, the camera pans up the leg and back slightly.

Now we can see who the foot and leg belong to: Joseph Gordon-Levitt’s version of Philippe Petit.

Behind him, the structure we saw a moment ago is also easier to see. It’s the rooftop of a big building. At least it looks big, part of it seems to be obscured by the morning fog. Another man is standing up there with him. He’s handing Philippe what looks like a long, metal rod.

The camera cuts back to looking at his feet now. Except instead of looking at the structure where he’s at, the shot is looking from behind his feet, across the wire, to the other side.

So, now we can see on the right side of the frame is the structure that dialogue in the movie confirms is a building. One of Philippe’s feet is on the building. The other one is a step down, carefully placed on the wire. That wire stretches from the building Philippe is partially on, across a gap covered in fog and to a building on the other side of the frame—that building is also partially covered by the fog.

A few seconds pass, and the fog rolls by a little bit more, covering up whatever we could see on the other side. Now the wire just looks like it’s going into nothingness. The fog continues to grow, as Philippe’s inner monologue explains that the sounds of New York faded below him: All I could see was the wire.

A moment passes as Philippe surveys the scene in front of him.

And then, carefully, Phillipe takes his foot off the building and places it on the wire.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie The Walk

That depiction of Phillipe Petit walking the high wire stretched between the two World Trade Center buildings in New York City really did happen on August 7^th, 1974.

And not to spoil the ending of the movie, but he did make it across. I’m guessing you already knew that part of it is true, too, since they probably wouldn’t have made a movie about it if he hadn’t been successful.

To quote from Sony Pictures’ official summary posted over on IMDb, “Twelve people have walked on the moon, but only one man – Philippe Petit (Joseph Gordon-Levitt) – has ever, or will ever, walk in the immense void between the World Trade Center towers.”

The walk between the towers wasn’t some random event.

Walking between the towers was something Phillipe Petit wanted to do ever since he found out they were being built in 1968—well, technically, the construction for the towers began in 1967, but Petit found out about them in 1968.

In 1971, he walked between the two towers of the Notre-Dame Cathedral in Paris. He got arrested for that since it’s illegal to do that. But, he got free and in 1973, he walked between pylons on the Sydney Harbour Bridge in Australia. Back in New York City, the two towers of the World Trade Center had their ribbon-cutting ceremony in April of 1973.

Then, in early 1974, Petit visited New York City. He also knew he’d have to compensate for both the wind as well as the towers moving, too. Standing 1,360 feet tall, the towers were designed to sway in the wind. So, he had a lot of preparation to do.

He took reconnaissance photos. He practiced on similar distances.

But, the walk itself was just part of it. They had to get the line secured. And they had to do it in a way that no one would know they’re doing it. After all, what he did was technically illegal.

In fact, many people have called his feat the ‘artistic crime of the century.’

The night before, on August 6^th, Petit and a few people helping him, snuck up to the south tower. Well, most of them.

A couple of the guys helping him went to the north tower. From there, they used a bow and arrow to shoot fishing line between the towers. Since it was dark and fishing line isn’t very easy to see to begin with, it took a while for Petit to find on the other side.

He even had to take off his clothes to feel around with more of his skin to find the line. Once they did, the steel wire was pulled between the towers and after much effort, finally secured.

The walk itself took place at about 7:15 AM local time on August 7^th, 1974.

It took about 45 minutes for Petit to span the distance between the towers. But, then again, he didn’t do it just once. All that work wasn’t for a single trip. He went back and forth eight times.

Oh, and to do some conversions, the towers are 1,360 feet tall so about 414 meters with a distance between them of 200 feet, so about 61 meters. Although I also found some sources saying Petit’s cable was 131 feet long, so about 40 meters, which could make sense that whoever measures the distance between the towers aren’t measuring for a cable connecting them, haha!

Just like we see in the movie, a crowd below gathered to see it happen. And as you can probably guess, police showed up on the other side to arrest Petit as soon as he stepped off the wire. He was released that afternoon—after a psych eval to make sure he was okay, of course. The only condition of his release was that he do a free performance in Central Park.

If you want to watch the event that happened this week in history, check out the 2015 movie called The Walk. The sequence we started our segment with today starts at about an hour, 28 minutes and 11 seconds into the movie.

August 8th, 1974. Washington DC.

I’ve got a quick fourth bonus event for you this week, and it comes about four minutes into the 2008 movie Frost/Nixon.

We’re looking over the shoulder of a man as he’s reviewing the papers on the desk in front of him. From somewhere off-screen, we can hear a man saying, “15 seconds, Mr. President.”

The camera cuts to…well, another camera. There are two red lights above the camera as the countdown continues.

“Five, four…”

We can see the President’s cufflinks in a closeup shot as he straightens the papers. They’re in his hands, now.

Then, he begins the speech.

“Good evening, this is the 37^th time I have addressed you from the office,” he says into the camera on the other side of the desk.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie Frost/Nixon

As I said, it’s a quick scene in the movie, but that’s how the 2008 movie called Frost/Nixon depicts an event that happened this week in history when, on August 8^th, 1974, President Richard Nixon announced to a live television audience that he would resign the Presidency effective the following day, making him the first president in the history of the United States to resign.

And that really is how Nixon started his speech that day, but in the movie we don’t see much of the speech before it cuts away. And I can understand why they decided to do that in the film—if for no other reason than the speech was about 15 minutes long.

That’s a lot to include in the movie, especially since the point of the movie is what happened after the speech and not the speech itself. But since they show how the speech began in the movie, let’s hear the first few minutes of the real speech…and then if you want to see the original television broadcast, I’ll include that over at basedonatruestorypodcast.com/338

Good evening.

This is the 37th time I have spoken to you from this office, where so many decisions have been made that shaped the history of this Nation. Each time I have done so to discuss with you some matter that I believe affected the national interest.

In all the decisions I have made in my public life, I have always tried to do what was best for the Nation. Throughout the long and difficult period of Watergate, I have felt it was my duty to persevere, to make every possible effort to complete the term of office to which you elected me.

In the past few days, however, it has become evident to me that I no longer have a strong enough political base in the Congress to justify continuing that effort. As long as there was such a base, I felt strongly that it was necessary to see the constitutional process through to its conclusion, that to do otherwise would be unfaithful to the spirit of that deliberately difficult process and a dangerously destabilizing precedent for the future.

But with the disappearance of that base, I now believe that the constitutional purpose has been served, and there is no longer a need for the process to be prolonged.

I would have preferred to carry through to the finish whatever the personal agony it would have involved, and my family unanimously urged me to do so. But the interest of the Nation must always come before any personal considerations.

From the discussions I have had with Congressional and other leaders, I have concluded that because of the Watergate matter I might not have the support of the Congress that I would consider necessary to back the very difficult decisions and carry out the duties of this office in the way the interests of the Nation would require.

I have never been a quitter. To leave office before my term is completed is abhorrent to every instinct in my body. But as President, I must put the interest of America first. America needs a full-time President and a full-time Congress, particularly at this time with problems we face at home and abroad.

To continue to fight through the months ahead for my personal vindication would almost totally absorb the time and attention of both the President and the Congress in a period when our entire focus should be on the great issues of peace abroad and prosperity without inflation at home.

Therefore, I shall resign the Presidency effective at noon tomorrow. Vice President Ford will be sworn in as President at that hour in this office.

And then Nixon continued the rest of the speech for a few more minutes. If you want to see the full speech, you can watch a clip of the original broadcast over at basedonatruestorypodcast.com/338

But that’s not the only thing from this week in history relevant to the true story.

The next day, at about noon on August 9^th, 1974, President Nixon officially stepped down and the office of the President was transferred to Vice President Gerald Ford who, then, became the 38^th President of the United States.

And then almost exactly a year later, on August 10^th, 1975—so also this week in history—David Frost bought the rights to an exclusive interview with former President Nixon. That’s the story told in the 2008 movie Frost/Nixon, so if you want to see the event that happened this week in history, the text on the screen saying it’s August 8^th, 1974, is at about four minutes and two seconds into the movie. And then the rest of the movie is about David Frost’s interview with Nixon.

And we covered that movie way back in the single digits—episode number four of Based on a True Story.

Historical birthdays from the movies

Let’s move onto our next segment now, where we learn about historical figures from the movies that were born this week in history.

On August 5^th, 1930, Neil Alden Armstrong was born in Wapakoneta, Ohio. And I probably butchered that pronunciation, so if you’re from Wapakoneta, or however you pronounce it, and you want to let us know, join the Based on a True Story Discord to share the correct pronunciation. But, Neil Armstrong was an astronaut best known as the first person to walk on the Moon. We learned all about that just last month during the anniversary of the Apollo 11 mission where we relied heavily on the way history was depicted in the 2018 biopic about his life called First Man. You can learn more about the historical accuracy of that movie over at http://basedonatruestorypodcast.com/144

On August 7^th, 1876, Margaretha Geertruida Zelle was born in Leeuwarden, Netherlands. She was better known as Mata Hari, which was her stage name as an exotic dancer and courtesan. Although, history perhaps best remembers her as a woman who was executed by a French firing squad after being convicted of being a spy for Germany during World War I. We dug into her story based on the movie about her life, which you can listen to at http://basedonatruestorypodcast.com/74

On August 10^th, 1874, Herbert Hoover was born in West Branch, Iowa. He was the 31^st President of the United States so it’s probably not too surprising that he’s been portrayed in a few different movies—if you’re looking for one to watch, I’d recommend The Day the Bubble Burst. Fair warning, it’s a highly fictional account about the stock market crash in 1929, but Hoover was played by actor Franklin Cover in the movie.

‘Based on a True Story’ movie that released this week

Time now for our segment about ‘based on a true story’ movies released this week in history.

We’re going back to the late 2000s for this one, for the comedy-drama film called Julie & Julia, which released 15 years ago, on August 7^th, 2009.

Directed by Nora Ephron, Julie & Julia intertwines the lives of two women who share a passion for cooking. It covers Julia Child’s early years in the culinary world and Julie Powell’s year-long blogging project.

The story begins with Julia Child (Meryl Streep) in the 1950s as she and her husband Paul (Stanley Tucci) move to Paris. Eager to find a purpose, Julia enrolls at Le Cordon Bleu, a prestigious culinary school. Despite facing skepticism and gender bias, she becomes determined to master French cooking. With her friends Simone Beck and Louisette Bertholle, Julia embarks on writing a French cookbook for American housewives. The process is long and challenging, but Julia’s perseverance pays off when the book, “Mastering the Art of French Cooking,” is finally published, revolutionizing American cuisine.

Parallel to Julia’s story is Julie Powell (Amy Adams), a government employee in New York City in 2002. Feeling unfulfilled in her job, Julie decides to cook all 524 recipes in Julia Child’s cookbook within a year and blogs about her experience. The blog quickly gains popularity, and Julie finds herself dealing with the pressures of her ambitious project while balancing her personal life with her supportive but sometimes frustrated husband, Eric (Chris Messina).

Throughout the film, the stories of Julia and Julie run in tandem, highlighting their respective challenges and triumphs. Julia’s journey shows her transformation into a culinary icon, while Julie’s journey depicts her struggle for self-fulfillment and recognition. The film culminates with Julie visiting a reconstruction of Julia’s kitchen at the Smithsonian Institution, paying homage to the woman who inspired her.

The movie ends on a poignant note, showing the impact both women had on each other’s lives, even though they never met.

And the movie is correct to show Julia Child’s reaction to Julie Powell’s blog. In the true story, Julia Child considered Powell’s blog more of a publicity stunt than a serious culinary endeavor. According to an article on The Cinemaholic, Julia Child’s exact words about Julie Powell was, “I don’t think she’s a serious cook.”

As you can probably imagine, when Julie Powell found out about this, she was crushed upon hearing her culinary idol’s disapproval.

The portrayal of Julia Child’s time at Le Cordon Bleu is also historically accurate. Julia Child was one of the few women studying at the prestigious culinary school in the 1950s. She faced significant challenges and skepticism from her male counterparts and some instructors, who doubted her capabilities. However, Child’s determination and passion for cooking shone through, and she excelled in her training, eventually co-authoring “Mastering the Art of French Cooking” with Simone Beck and Louisette Bertholle.

Switching to how the movie shows Julie Powell’s blog project, it is true that her blog project was to cook all 524 recipes from Julia Child’s cookbook in one year. Powell started her blog in 2002, documenting her daily experiences and challenges of cooking in her tiny New York apartment kitchen. The blog quickly gained a large following, leading to a book deal and transforming Powell’s life. Her memoir called Julie & Julia: 365 Days, 524 Recipes, 1 Tiny Apartment Kitchen became a bestseller and was used as a basis for the filmmakers.

But that doesn’t mean getting published was easy for Julie or Julia.

The film accurately portrays the long and arduous process Julia Child faced in getting her cookbook published. Julia and her co-authors spent several years perfecting the recipes and manuscript, and were rejected by publishers time and time again finally securing a deal with the publisher Alfred A. Knopf.

Julia’s book called Mastering the Art of French Cooking which published in 1961 was a significant milestone, marking the beginning of Julia’s impact on American culinary culture.

The depiction of Julie Powell’s life in New York City, including her job and her strained relationship with her husband, Eric, is accurate enough to get the gist across. It’s always a good idea to remember that dialogue in movies is often one of the most made-up things, so the general plot points around a strained relationship can be accurate even if the specific conversations that strain the relationship are made up for the movie, if that makes sense.

Although, it’s also a good idea to remember that this movie was based on Julie Powell’s memoir, so maybe some of those conversations were real, but there’s no way that I, the filmmakers, or anyone else who wasn’t there would be able to prove that. At least, for the parts about Julie. The filmmakers also the book that Julia Child co-wrote with her great nephew Alex Prud’homme called My Life in France. I’ll add links to both of those in the show notes, of course.

But, it is true that the real Julie Powell worked at the LMDC handling calls related to the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks. For a bit of context, the LMDC, or Lower Manhattan Development Corporation, was formed in November of 2001 with the purpose of reconstructing lower Manhattan in the wake of the 9/11 attacks.

She wasn’t happy at her job, so that’s a big reason why she threw herself into the blogging project as a creative escape.

If you want to watch how the movie portrays the relationship between Julie and Julia, hop into the show notes to find where you can watch it right now.