00:00:00:26 – 00:00:21:27
Dan LeFebvre
Let’s kick this off by getting an overall look at the Manhattan Project. Because if I were to try to summarize the movie’s depiction, basically it seems like a top secret program by the US military at the end of World War two to create an atomic bomb. Can you give us an overall explanation of what the Manhattan Project actually was?

00:00:21:29 – 00:00:55:27
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah, it was a project, as you say, during World War Two, to build an atomic bomb. And this is work that, played out mostly in the United States, but it involves scientists from Britain and from Canada as well. As well as is this is something we see really clearly in Oppenheimer, many, many European scientists in exile in the United States who are working on the project, who had been, you know, involved in, nuclear physics, who were bassists or chemists, you know, before they fled the United States and who were involved in the project, you know, working at places like University of Chicago, working at Los Alamos, etc..

00:00:55:29 – 00:01:23:02
Alice Lovejoy
And the basic idea behind the bomb is something that Oppenheimer details well, which is the idea, the discovery, really, that if you could split the nucleus of an atom of uranium atom, nuclear fission, you could create a chain reaction, a great amount of energy that would create a chain reaction that would split other atoms. And so this could be the basis for an extremely powerful weapon, really more powerful than any weapon that existed before.

00:01:23:04 – 00:01:51:26
Alice Lovejoy
So that’s the kind of science behind it. But the, the actual project itself, was huge for the size of atoms. Atoms are really, really small. And on a scale large enough to make enough fissionable material for a bomb, you needed, government and scientific cooperation and investment across multiple factories and multiple places. And so in Oppenheimer, we are focused on Los Alamos for the most part in New Mexico, which is where, our Oppenheimer worked.

00:01:51:28 – 00:02:22:04
Alice Lovejoy
It’s where a lot of the physicists were. But there was a huge amount of production work happening in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, in Hanford, Washington, which were cities that were built for the Manhattan Project. But they didn’t exist before, as well as in Washington and then in university centers like Berkeley, which we do see in the film, and the University of Chicago, which we see briefly as well, underneath the football field, and in New York, places like Columbia and here at places like the University of Minnesota, it really was really across the, across the country and, universities.

00:02:22:04 – 00:02:24:19
Alice Lovejoy
But there were some that were more involved than others.

00:02:24:21 – 00:02:41:20
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, it definitely in the movie, it definitely focuses on Los Alamos, which is, I mean, it’s Oppenheimer, so it’s mostly focus on him. There is a scene in the movie, I think it’s a madman’s version of General Leslie Groves. He talks about buying like 1200 tons of uranium and how it’s being processed in a facility in Oak Ridge, Tennessee.

00:02:41:27 – 00:03:00:21
Dan LeFebvre
But we don’t ever see Oak Ridge in the movie. It just kind of shows like two glass bowls. One of them is supposed to be Oak Ridge. One of them, I think, is Hanford. And one of them is the uranium in Oak Ridge. And then the other one is plutonium in Hanford. So they’re talking about making a fission bomb and a hydrogen bomb.

00:03:00:23 – 00:03:10:27
Dan LeFebvre
And so the impression I got from the movie, it sounds like not only are they doing something that’s never been done before and building an atomic bomb, but they’re trying two different ways to do it. Is that true?

00:03:10:29 – 00:03:35:12
Alice Lovejoy
So yes, I think there’s some nuance there. I think the the film gets that scene in the film is great because it gets at not just the scale. Right? How small the this the amount of materials that Hanford and Oak Ridge are able to breathe are so small. And yet they’re so hard to make. Yeah. And the scene gets at the fact that the Manhattan Project was working on two different kinds of fissionable materials for the bomb, so uranium and plutonium.

00:03:35:19 – 00:03:51:29
Alice Lovejoy
And this is all for the same kind of bomb, which is efficient bomb, and Oak Ridge, and Hanford were the places where this was happening. But because this was a project that was happening at such speed, because the war was ongoing, they were afraid the Germans would get the bomb, which is something that the film shows very well.

00:03:52:01 – 00:04:15:06
Alice Lovejoy
There was there were numerous ways of creating this material that were happening at the same time. So in Oak Ridge there were three plants. One of them was using the electromagnetic separation process, to separate fissionable uranium 2005 from uranium 2008. And then there was a gaseous diffusion process at another plant at Oak Ridge and at Oak Ridge.

00:04:15:06 – 00:04:38:03
Alice Lovejoy
There was also another plant that was transforming, spent uranium fuel slugs into plutonium. And then Hanford was working fully on plutonium. So we see a little bit of the electromagnetic separation process in Berkeley and an early scene in the film where, Josh Hartnett, who is playing Ernest Lawrence, shows us that machine. And that is what was operating a large scale at Oak Ridge.

00:04:38:03 – 00:04:57:25
Alice Lovejoy
And the electron and the white, all the electromagnetic separation plant. But the hydrogen bomb is something different. And this is a thermonuclear weapon. This is something that comes up in the film because, Edward Teller, the, physicist who kind of is at odds with Oppenheimer, throughout their time. And Los Alamos is really invested in this.

00:04:57:25 – 00:05:18:24
Alice Lovejoy
And hydrogen bombs work through, through fusion and not through fission. So thermonuclear bombs, hydrogen bombs, where something that became a reality in the 50s, and they were very, very dangerous. They’re much more powerful. They are much more powerful than the kinds of bombs that were being worked on at Los Alamos. And so I think this is part of the moral story.

00:05:18:27 – 00:05:37:00
Alice Lovejoy
Right, that’s operating in Oppenheimer at the same time as sort of scientific and industrial story, which is about what are the costs of working on a bomb this powerful. And so Teller’s character is there and to sort of, show what he would do later, which is accurate, right. Working on the hydrogen bomb really being responsible for a lot of that science.

00:05:37:02 – 00:05:54:18
Alice Lovejoy
But also to, to set up the, the, the ways in which this project would evolve and in, unforeseeable ways, right in the future that these bombs that they were making in Los Alamos and Oak Ridge, and Hanford would lead the way for things that couldn’t be seen at that point.

00:05:54:20 – 00:06:15:00
Dan LeFebvre
So because, yeah, they kind of they kind of talk a little bit about that. You know, I think the concept of the bomb just becoming a never ending explosion and that sort of thing is, is that kind of what you were referring to is, you know, some of the, the moral elements of it more than just, you know, World War Two, we want to end the war.

00:06:15:02 – 00:06:18:15
Dan LeFebvre
But what’s going to happen after that and that, that whole concept.

00:06:18:18 – 00:06:43:25
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah, I think that’s part of it. One of the the key parts of this film for me is that, is Oppenheimer is grappling with the the intersection between the scientific work he’s doing and the politics of this work and the real world consequences of this work. And we see that, as something that’s shared with the scientists as well, when they have a meeting, at Los Alamos and they say, hey, Germany has capitulated, why are we still making this bomb?

00:06:43:27 – 00:07:03:25
Alice Lovejoy
Right? You know how many people are going to be killed? And what does this mean for the future of humanity? That’s something that Niels Bohr, the, who the physicist who comes in earlier in a later in the film says, like who? What is going to happen with this? Are you going to destroy humanity with this? So it’s not just about the possibility that the film deals with, which is an uncontrolled chain reaction which could really destroy the world.

00:07:04:00 – 00:07:21:13
Alice Lovejoy
It’s also about, thinking forward to the arms race and to whether this would be used. And this is sort of one of the key debates of the Cold War, whether the existence of nuclear weapons would prevent countries from going to war or whether they would just create, more and more danger for the world.

00:07:21:16 – 00:07:50:00
Dan LeFebvre
You mentioned with Germany, the other the possibility of Germany doing it, too. And this is outside the scope of anything that we see in Oppenheimer. But it would they have the thought of, well, if somebody is going to do it, it might as well be us first, right? I mean, I know that’s a simplification, perhaps, but, you know, if they were afraid that Nazi Germany is going to be building this, then I could see how they’d be like, well, we want to do it first.

00:07:50:03 – 00:08:11:14
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah. And that is the logic right in there. And there was a logic behind this too, that, you know, there were people that this could end the war, it could end all war. And that we don’t want the Nazis to have, to be the ones to get there first, because it could be quite dangerous. And as we learn in the film and this is accurate, they were the Germans were not as advanced as people had feared, even though they had their Heisenberg.

00:08:11:14 – 00:08:30:09
Alice Lovejoy
And they had these, you know, great scientific minds working on the project. The allies were much more advanced with it. So it wasn’t, as much of a threat as had been feared. But there was a breakdown in scientific communication at this moment, too. Right. So people weren’t publishing in these international journals, as much there wasn’t as much circulation of knowledge.

00:08:30:09 – 00:08:48:18
Alice Lovejoy
And this is a real question, you know, in the history of 20th century weapons, it goes back to poison gas, right? Then the question of whether in poison gas for World War One was really the most destructive weapon. It was the thing that raised the most moral, qualms as well. Right? Because it’s a weapon of mass destruction.

00:08:48:20 – 00:09:05:25
Alice Lovejoy
And so there were discussions about whether this is, a weapon whose, development and circulation should be known about widely, so nobody else would develop it. Right, so the world could be protected. But those kinds of networks of scientific communication, which built up after World War One and after poison gas had really broken down by this point.

00:09:05:28 – 00:09:25:07
Dan LeFebvre
When you’re talking about how much goes into creating, you know, going back to the glass bowls and those being filled up, can you fill a little bit more? I mean, I, I don’t know much about what actually goes into creating those, but, I mean, it’s one thing that we see in the movie I it’s called Oppenheimer. Right?

00:09:25:07 – 00:09:45:09
Dan LeFebvre
So he’s he’s the main character, but it does kind of talk a little bit about what you’re, talking about before with what it takes to create these materials. You know, even at Los Alamos, which the movie focuses on, they talk about building a town, churches and schools and building this whole thing. You talked about, you know, Oakridge and Hanford being towns that they built in other areas.

00:09:45:09 – 00:09:50:18
Dan LeFebvre
So can you share some more historical context around the size of the Manhattan Project?

00:09:50:21 – 00:10:12:28
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah, it’s a great question because it was huge. And we see this, early in the film when I think, it’s a scene between when Leslie, our Groves, meets Oppenheimer for the first time, and Oppenheimer says, well, if we’re going to do this, we need to have these four spaces, and they need to be coordinated. And the the difference in scale between the number of marbles, you know, these tiny little marbles that you need to make enough charge material for a bomb.

00:10:12:28 – 00:10:36:09
Alice Lovejoy
And the the scope of the project across the United States is really a good way to look at it. So let’s just think about Y-12, the Y-12 plant in Oak Ridge, which is the one that I know the most about my my recent book, deals and in in detail with the history of Y-12. And it was run by the Tennessee Eastman Company, which was the main chemical subsidiary of the Eastman Kodak Company, the photographic and film company.

00:10:36:11 – 00:11:07:07
Alice Lovejoy
And at its height, there were 22,000 employees working for Y-12, 22,000, and this plant was only one of three at Oak Ridge. The plant itself was, at the time, I think, around 800 acres in size, which is, if we’re going to go by a football field, around 600 football fields, I think. And so there were multiple buildings within it, multiple calutrons, which are these, machines that separate, uranium 235 from uranium 238.

00:11:07:09 – 00:11:33:29
Alice Lovejoy
And all of these huge factories were what was needed to make this very small amounts of fissionable material. But that’s only part of it. Right? So it’s an engineering project. It’s a factory project. It’s a chemical engineering project. And you have major U.S. companies and, and, Canadian companies involved in this. Right? So not just Eastman Kodak, but DuPont, Stone and Webster Engineering for many, many other well known companies.

00:11:34:01 – 00:11:57:03
Alice Lovejoy
And, so this is a good example of the big science of World War two. And, and you bring up towns and that’s part of it too, right? Because big science and big industry is, something that, as they say, we can’t attract top scientists without bringing their families. So we need to make whole cities, that kind of company that can accommodate, these families, you know, these, civilians, really.

00:11:57:09 – 00:12:17:15
Alice Lovejoy
And so overnight, these cities are built and, since this is a podcast about movies, I can give you a statistic that at Oak Ridge there were seven cinemas plus a film society that were built to accommodate the 75,000 people who lived there at the town’s peak. And so the film society was showing all sorts of things.

00:12:17:15 – 00:12:48:02
Alice Lovejoy
They were showing 39 stops. They were showing Sergei Eisenstein’s Alexander Nevsky, there. And this is just part of the leisure offerings that the town, offered at the time. So bowling alleys, baseball leagues, etc. people were working 24 hour, the factories were working 24 hours a day. There was a patchwork of shifts. So you see these towns built very, very quickly out of nowhere, really, to accommodate these massive industrial projects, which is where I think Oppenheimer doesn’t quite get this right.

00:12:48:02 – 00:12:54:21
Alice Lovejoy
It doesn’t quite get at the massive industrial scale of what’s happening because it it really is a film about, about Oppenheimer himself.

00:12:54:24 – 00:12:57:24
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. It’s it’s not called Manhattan Project. Right, exactly.

00:12:58:01 – 00:12:59:10
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah.

00:12:59:12 – 00:13:31:00
Dan LeFebvre
I mean, that’s it’s mind boggling the amount of work and effort to create, like you said, just this tiny little that you splitting atoms literally, like, and and the amount of effort. And then on top of that, being top secret, I mean, I can’t imagine you have you said there’s 22,000 people working and then 75,000 overall. So all these, all these families, were they essentially locked in?

00:13:31:00 – 00:13:44:28
Dan LeFebvre
They’re like locked it. I’m thinking of like a military base. You know, there’s there’s housing on base. But, I used to work in a military base and you could go in and out. You had to have credentials, obviously, but you can go in and out. It’s not like you’re you’re stuck in there. But base wasn’t top secret.

00:13:44:28 – 00:13:54:26
Dan LeFebvre
And dealing with this top secret things in the middle of a world war. And so what was it? I mean, again, this is way outside the scope of acting either, but it’s just fascinating how much goes into it.

00:13:54:28 – 00:14:14:01
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah. And I think they were closed me people came to work from outside Oak Ridge as well. And, you know, there were busses that went long distances and, and, you know, labor was a huge issue because you have to remember, this is the draft is happening. They’re relying primarily on to a large degree on female labor because that’s what’s available.

00:14:14:03 – 00:14:31:03
Alice Lovejoy
And so, people are, you know, coming in and out, the secrecy works in part through something that comes up a lot in the film, which is called compartmentalization. Right? The idea that one area doesn’t know what the other area is doing and very, very few people have a sense of what the whole is of the project.

00:14:31:10 – 00:14:40:03
Alice Lovejoy
And so, that was really important. And, you know, many, many people who worked at places like Oak Ridge didn’t know what they were involved with until the bomb was dropped.

00:14:40:06 – 00:14:49:14
Dan LeFebvre
Oh, okay. Okay. Would that be why they had Los Alamos and Oak Ridge and Hanford? I mean, they’re not close to each other geographically at all.

00:14:49:16 – 00:15:07:19
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah, that’s a great question. I don’t know the answer to that. I think part of it was about available space and proximity to and really remote spaces, right? Was what they were looking for. And so, in Oppenheimer and I don’t know exactly the story behind this, he, he has a personal relationship to this area near Los Alamos.

00:15:07:19 – 00:15:13:17
Alice Lovejoy
And so they they put the project there. In the case of Oak Ridge, it was, through farmland and towns.

00:15:13:19 – 00:15:28:00
Dan LeFebvre
One of the other famous people that we see in the movie is Albert Einstein. And from the movie’s depiction, it doesn’t really seem like Einstein is involved in the Manhattan Project itself. But he does help Oppenheimer with some calculations. When we were talking about earlier, you know, the thought of triggering a chain reaction that destroys the world.

00:15:28:03 – 00:15:37:24
Dan LeFebvre
But in the movie, it almost seems like Einstein is just someone that everybody’s going to know. And so they just kind of throw him in there. Was Einstein involved in the Manhattan Project at all?

00:15:37:26 – 00:15:56:07
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah, I agree with you that it seems like he’s put in there just because, you know, we know his face, we know his hair, we know what it looks like. But he didn’t play a direct role in the Manhattan Project. But he did, however, and this comes up in the film, he famously signed a letter written to President Roosevelt by the physicist, Leo Szilard.

00:15:56:07 – 00:16:13:16
Alice Lovejoy
Edward Teller, who we see in the film and at Zealand as well, we see in the film, and Eugene and Victor, who are all, Hungarian scientists, I believe, in exile, warning Roosevelt that it was possible that the Germans would create an atomic bomb and explaining what that kind of a weapon might be and what its dangers were.

00:16:13:18 – 00:16:41:23
Alice Lovejoy
I think as a film scholar, my reading of Einstein’s role in the film, goes beyond the fact that he is so well known. I think, you know, in my reading, Oppenheimer is a great man film great. It’s not a Tatian of the biography. American Prometheus, about Robert Oppenheimer, and one of the key dramatic arcs in the film, beyond this kind of story of the bomb and how it’s created, is the tension between Louis Strouse and Robin Robert Robert Oppenheimer.

00:16:41:25 – 00:17:04:20
Alice Lovejoy
Right. And so to give some background here, for those who might not have seen the film recently, the film cuts back and forth between the story of Oppenheimer’s education, how he comes to the Manhattan Project, the process of creating the bomb, and then, what happens afterwards when the Atomic Energy Commission chairman Lewis Strauss, attempts to discredit Oppenheimer?

00:17:04:23 – 00:17:27:26
Alice Lovejoy
Who has since the bomb was dropped, develops very strong moral qualms about, the potential of this weapon and what and what it represents. And so, you know, Oppenheimer wrote this for this point has developed cloud. He’s developed a certain amount of power. And Strauss, I think, finds this threatening. And Strauss also has different political, you know, idea of what bombs can do than Oppenheimer.

00:17:27:26 – 00:18:05:00
Alice Lovejoy
Right? He’s he’s more conservative. He’s a Republican. And again, party, the party questions don’t work exactly like they do now. But, that he was, somebody who advocated for, building up the U.S. nuclear arsenal and for using weapons like the hydrogen bomb, which were quite destructive. So the film intercuts between these two stories, and it ends at the end of the film when Strauss loses his bid to become secretary of commerce, and Congress, because it comes out that he has orchestrated this, essentially a closed door show trial against Oppenheimer that’s designed to discredit him and show to prove that he was a communist.

00:18:05:00 – 00:18:30:10
Alice Lovejoy
And remember, this is McCarthy, and this is the moment of McCarthyism. It’s a second red scare, etc.. So this brings us back to Einstein, because there’s a key moment in the film at the very beginning where Oppenheimer and Einstein have a conversation on the grounds of the Institute for Advanced Study at Princeton. Strauss is working there at the time, and Strauss has invited Oppenheimer to consider coming to work as well, which he eventually does.

00:18:30:12 – 00:18:56:03
Alice Lovejoy
So Strauss doesn’t hear what the two physicists say to one another. But, as we learn at the end of the film, he’s paranoid that they’re talking about him. And, it turns out they’re not talking about him. They’re talking about something entirely different. And what they’re talking about is that Eisenstein. I like Eisenstein to me, Einstein, is offering Oppenheimer a warning about what happens when you reach such achievement as he has.

00:18:56:03 – 00:19:23:06
Alice Lovejoy
Right. He says that this kind of achievement is followed by great punishment, public punishment, which we’ve just seen him endure in the film. And so there’s a frame right at the end of film where we see the three men, Strauss and Einstein, and often hammer together right in against the same background. And we can see how much this is a story about power, about the costs of ambition and about the idea of the great man, which is something that this film was playing with a lot.

00:19:23:09 – 00:19:43:18
Alice Lovejoy
And how it’s sort of, created in contexts that are complicated, right, that do have to do with power and other people’s ambition. And so Einstein, I think, is kind of a foil to these two men, Strauss and, Oppenheimer, who has relationships to what we might think of as greatness are very different. Right. Oppenheimer is a very ambivalent.

00:19:43:18 – 00:19:54:03
Alice Lovejoy
At least the film shows it to the idea of being kind of a great man, whereas Strauss, wants that, right? He wants power. He he is very, very ambitious. And ultimately it’s not about him.

00:19:54:05 – 00:20:06:15
Dan LeFebvre
It’s the mere fact that he thought that they were talking about him when I, when I when he said that in the movie, I was like, oh, this is one of those guys that thinks the world revolves around him. Everything is about him. So they must be talking about him.

00:20:06:18 – 00:20:20:12
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah. And so I think that’s I think that’s one of the, the key points of why Einstein is there. Because he is a great man, right? He is sort of somebody that everybody recognizes and knows. And it’s sort of yeah, puts that into relief and interesting ways.

00:20:20:14 – 00:20:42:20
Dan LeFebvre
Well, if you have back to the movie’s timeline, there is immense pressure to use an atomic bomb to end World War two. And in the movie, we see that the movie, their military has a list of like, love and Japanese cities. They want to drop bombs on two of those cities. And there’s a tight deadline. So first, they need to detonate an atomic bomb for the first time ever to make sure it works one and then gather data about it.

00:20:42:20 – 00:20:52:01
Dan LeFebvre
And that’s how we get in the movie. The Trinity test. And quite in the movie, at least, it seems to be a massive success. How well do you think the movie did depicting the Trinity test?

00:20:52:04 – 00:21:13:09
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah, I think what is effective about the way Oppenheimer depicts the Trinity test is that it really drills down on two things. The first, that no one there knew what they were doing or if it would work. Right. So this is a scientific experiment, much like a laboratory experiment. But but it’s operating on a huge scale with huge consequences.

00:21:13:12 – 00:21:49:28
Alice Lovejoy
And so that’s the second thing really, that perhaps somewhat unusually for these kinds of laboratory experiments, this lack of knowledge meant a lot. Right? So the film has already shown us again, that at this point, Germany has already capitulated. So there’s this question of whether it makes sense to use the weapon. And then, and I don’t know the accuracy of this timeline right before the test, General Leslie R Groves, played by Matt Damon, speaks with Oppenheimer about the non-zero chance that this explosion is will set off a chain reaction that will destroy the world and, I think that’s a moment where it’s a little too late, right, for those consequences

00:21:49:28 – 00:22:13:11
Alice Lovejoy
to become clear. And so, in a cinematic sense, it really makes sense to shoot this scene in a very stark, dark way, right? Because it’s, it’s all shot in at night. I mean, it was happening very early in the morning. The sound, is taken away. There’s no sound or very little sound. In the moments around the explosion, it goes into slow motion.

00:22:13:11 – 00:22:37:22
Alice Lovejoy
So it’s really telescoping. The moments around the explosion into a longer period. There’s low contrast until we get to the explosion, which is very, very bright. So I think what the film so that the film shows us a depiction of the Trinity test that is about Oppenheimer and his own experience of it and these sort of like these moral accompaniments to the scientific questions.

00:22:37:24 – 00:22:53:28
Alice Lovejoy
But, you know, in fact, this this test had been planned for over a year. The planning was meticulous. You know, the film shows us, a moment where they say, oh, we have to hurry. We have to get this thing tested in time for the Potsdam Conference. But in fact, it’s been in the works for for a while.

00:22:54:00 – 00:23:18:29
Alice Lovejoy
And so part of the goal here was not just to see if it worked, but also to document its effects and to study it. Right. This is a scientific, feat as well as a military, endeavor. And so part of this documentation involved cameras. There were 55 cameras, at the tests. Most of them motion picture cameras, which were designed to be started by the same mechanism that trip the bomb.

00:23:19:01 – 00:23:47:01
Alice Lovejoy
And so they were recording what happened. And so we don’t see a lot of that right in the scene. It really you just go into the, the, the, the moral, ethical, psychological questions that surround it. And I think it does a very good job of that. And I think this is also why we get that quote from the Bhagavad which, Bhagavad Gita coming up at the end, that Oppenheimer first encounters with Jean Tatlock earlier in the film.

00:23:47:03 – 00:24:01:03
Alice Lovejoy
Now I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. Right. So in reality, this is a much more planned, you know, carefully documented event. Even if it does have all this moral significance.

00:24:01:06 – 00:24:24:11
Dan LeFebvre
It sounds like, again, I mean, kind of what we were talking about with the Manhattan Project. There’s a lot more than what we see in the movie. But again, the movie is called Oppenheimer. It’s also not called Trinity Test, you know? So, you know, it’s showing it. But, from, I’m gonna say from his perspective, but more from his perspective than from anybody else’s or from, you know, the test itself or any of that.

00:24:24:13 – 00:24:44:29
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. Well, during the Trinity test, the movie does show everyone’s watching the explosion using glasses to shield their eyes. Some of them take their glasses off, watch huge ball of flame. A moment later, the shockwave hits. And as I was watching this in the movie, I was thinking, what about the radiation? The movie doesn’t really talk about that that much.

00:24:44:29 – 00:25:04:03
Dan LeFebvre
And, you know, we think of the knowledge that we have now, you know, knowing that the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, more recently, like Chernobyl or Fukushima, you know, these disasters on nuclear scale that, you know, the radiation is a huge thing. Was radiation a concern for the scientists working on the Manhattan Project?

00:25:04:06 – 00:25:27:09
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah, the radiation, dangers of radiation were known. There was something that the Manhattan Project had studied. The historian Kate Brown has written about this in her work on Hanford, showing that the project studied, what radiation could do to animals, even in a very small doses. But there was a prevailing sense that there was a level under which radiation was essentially harmless.

00:25:27:09 – 00:25:48:02
Alice Lovejoy
And this is known as the tolerance dose, at the time. So, you know, we do see them talking about the dangers of radiation earlier in the film where the scientist Lilli Hornick, who is, a woman working on Oppenheimer’s team, is sort of told you shouldn’t be working on this. It’s dangerous to your reproductive system. And she says to one of the men most equally dangerous to yours.

00:25:48:04 – 00:26:05:26
Alice Lovejoy
Which is true. And, and this might be why, in the scene of the Trinity test, we see most of the project scientists just lying out in the open, right? That there was the idea that there was a tolerance dose might explain this. You know, they’re lying down, so they’re not knocked over by the shockwave.

00:26:05:29 – 00:26:30:00
Alice Lovejoy
And they have welder’s glass to hold up against, the the explosion, which is the same thing that we used to look at eclipses now, but, and then there’s one person, I think it’s Edward Teller who puts on what looks like sunscreen against the explosion. But, you know, this also gives a sense of just how little was known about, they knew it was dangerous, but but they didn’t have a sense of what the explosion would bring.

00:26:30:02 – 00:26:49:20
Alice Lovejoy
But there’s something else here. Which is the scene ends as the sun comes up. The sun comes up, it’s in the desert. They’re all celebrating, or most of them are celebrating, and, the wind is coming up. All right. So, this is something that’s, crucial here, but it’s not discussed, because even though the wind just seems like atmosphere at this moment.

00:26:49:20 – 00:27:22:25
Alice Lovejoy
Right? It’s the desert. There’s wind. That wind is really crucial because, as the project would find out later, the same wind was carrying radioactive fallout from the test site across the country. So the effects of this, were, of course, particularly stark near the test site. And this is something that, especially as testing moves in about in a desert, we know the really horrible cases of who were called the people called the Downwinders, who developed really terrible cancers and other health issues from being, in proximity to radioactive fallout.

00:27:22:27 – 00:27:44:02
Alice Lovejoy
But one of the things that I talk about in my book is that the radiation from these tests and from Trinity tests, the Trinity test as well, the radiation traveled much farther than the test sites themselves, even though the AEC and the Manhattan Project thought that they couldn’t. Right. So they were found, in Indiana. They were eventually found in the East Coast and beyond.

00:27:44:04 – 00:27:58:19
Alice Lovejoy
And it was traveling the fall. It was traveling on the same wind that we see start up there. So I see that as a really important kind of moment in showing the the effects of these weapons that went well beyond what anybody had imagined just from the explosion.

00:27:58:22 – 00:28:06:07
Dan LeFebvre
Wow. Yeah. You don’t really think about I mean, that’s one of those things. It’s a.

00:28:06:09 – 00:28:42:09
Dan LeFebvre
You don’t see it. So you don’t think that it’s something that will that will do. And I could see how, you know, back then this is one of those moments in the movie where it’s, it’s difficult to put myself back in the historical context of what it was like then, because we know so much. I don’t know a lot about the nuclear world, but, you know, things like Chernobyl and Fukushima, you know, hearing about that and learning about those, you hear about things like, I think with Chernobyl, if I remember right, you know, one of the reasons they learned about it was because other countries in Europe were detecting these things from the radiation

00:28:42:09 – 00:28:57:17
Dan LeFebvre
on the wind, you know, stuff like that, that obviously they knew more about then. But we’re talking, you know, in the 1940s, first, first time, I can’t imagine how much there was that. They weren’t they weren’t tracking it. So they would know basically. Right.

00:28:57:19 – 00:29:21:26
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah, exactly. And this is where Kodak comes in an interesting ways because, in after the Trinity test, Kodak realizes that there are spots of black spots or spots of radiation that are showing up on unexposed film. So film that’s been sitting packaged for a while, and they trace it back to, microscopic particles of radiation in the packaging material that’s containing the film.

00:29:22:02 – 00:29:38:05
Alice Lovejoy
And they realize that that material is from Indiana, and that it must have been harvested, it was made of straw, or it’s kind of straw bore that they had turn to after, cardboard waste paper during the war ended up having a lot of radium in it. Right. So they couldn’t use that either because it would expose the film.

00:29:38:05 – 00:30:01:08
Alice Lovejoy
So they started making the straw board and then the straw has radiation in it. And that is coming. They trace it back to the Trinity test. So that happens, in the late 1940s and then and the early 1950s, Kodak becomes really the first industrial site to alert the Atomic Energy Commission to just how far radiation is traveling, because our film factories are so attentive to radiation to begin with.

00:30:01:10 – 00:30:11:20
Dan LeFebvre
Wow. I mean, so that wasn’t even the you just mentioned. There were a lot of cameras there at Los Alamos. That wasn’t even the film that was there that was filmed. That was thousands of miles away anyway.

00:30:11:22 – 00:30:29:03
Alice Lovejoy
That’s right. Yeah. The film that was there was singed. It was burned. And so it definitely was affected by it. And they were doing everything they could to protect the film, you know, whether that was through glass or led led, cases for cameras. But this is something different where it shows up, really, as you say, invisibly.

00:30:29:05 – 00:30:33:01
Alice Lovejoy
And film becomes a way to, to track it that they didn’t, they weren’t expecting.

00:30:33:03 – 00:30:51:03
Dan LeFebvre
In the movie, the very next scene, after the successful military test, we see some military guys, saying with respect, Doctor Oppenheimer will take it from here. And then with that, they just pack up a bombs and drive away. It happened. So quickly in the movie. It’s almost as if, okay, we had this successful test and now Manhattan Project is over.

00:30:51:06 – 00:31:05:13
Dan LeFebvre
We don’t really see what happens to the town. Of course, we didn’t really see a lot of the town anyway, so we don’t really see what happens. We don’t see anything about what happened with Oak Ridge or Hanford. So can you fill in some more history around how the Manhattan Project actually came to an end?

00:31:05:15 – 00:31:20:08
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah, I think that’s I think you’re right that this is a moment that seems abrupt because it I think that’s what it feels like to Oppenheimer. Right. He’s all of a sudden this is a political thing. It’s a government thing. It’s no longer a scientific thing. And that’s really one of the tensions in the film, right, between Strauss and Oppenheimer as well.

00:31:20:11 – 00:31:46:01
Alice Lovejoy
But the, you know, all of the moral and scientific complexity that goes into this is kind of flattened by politics, right? You know, you have Germans saying, this is my weapon. You know, it’s my it’s mine now. And, and, you know, one of the thought things that film does, I think very well is to show us all of the sophistication of Oppenheimer’s thinking and how he was working within a context that had to do with modernist art, and that had to do with reading in multiple languages.

00:31:46:01 – 00:32:04:11
Alice Lovejoy
That had to do with poetry. That was really drawing on, multiple ways of thinking about the world. Whereas the world of politics is much more about power. Right. And Oppenheimer is not part of that world. So, we see that moment. I really think that’s a great scene because it just the weapon goes away and all of a sudden, it’s out of his hands.

00:32:04:11 – 00:32:23:16
Alice Lovejoy
It’s not his anymore. So the successor to the Manhattan Project was the Atomic Energy Commission, which Strauss was the commissioner of between 53 and 58. And the impression that we get from the film is that the AC was more directly politicized in the Manhattan Project, and I think that was true. Right. This is, again, the context of the Cold War.

00:32:23:16 – 00:32:43:22
Alice Lovejoy
The early 50s is the moment when, you know, the Soviets have the bomb. And so there’s the arms race. There is the anti-communist hysteria with McCarthyism in the US. And this really, changed, the context, right, for the kind of work that the Manhattan Project had been doing, which wasn’t about the Soviet Union, really at the time.

00:32:43:24 – 00:33:05:26
Alice Lovejoy
And so at the end of the film, we see this kind of abrupt ending, but it isn’t quite it wasn’t quite that abrupt. The Manhattan Project continue to work, continue to exist for a while. The AEC was founded on August 1st, 1946 with the Atomic Energy Act, and by 1947, the Manhattan Project’s work had been fully absorbed by the AEC.

00:33:05:29 – 00:33:30:29
Alice Lovejoy
But the Manhattan Project, was involved, for instance, with the atomic test Bikini Atoll in 1946, the operations crossroads tests, and eventually all of the infrastructure that the Manhattan Project had built. So at Oak Ridge, at Hanford, at Los Alamos was transferred to the AEC. And those installations still exist. And they’re a really important legacy of World War Two’s big science.

00:33:31:01 – 00:33:52:11
Dan LeFebvre
So it’s not like the the Manhattan Project name went away, mostly. But the technology or obviously the technology still exists. But, you know, a lot of even the facilities and things like that were just essentially transferred to, oh, now we had this new technology. Would it make sense? They wouldn’t have an EEC. There’s no Atomic Energy Commission prior to atomic energy not even being a thing.

00:33:52:11 – 00:33:56:10
Dan LeFebvre
So having that set up, I guess that makes sense. It just transitioned into that.

00:33:56:16 – 00:34:19:16
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah. So it’s really a governmental I mean, it’s it’s a it’s a movement from a wartime exigency. And an agency that is built really swiftly during the war by the Army Corps of Engineers, among others. And that’s coordinating things through this question of how do we institutionalize this now that we know we have this technology that’s both for weapons and for energy, and that’s the other part of the story that, you know, is crucial to how the AEC evolves.

00:34:19:18 – 00:34:48:06
Dan LeFebvre
Obviously, my audience is made up of a bunch of film lovers, and as I’m sure film lovers are aware, Christopher Nolan used Kodak’s 65 millimeter large format film to shoot Oppenheimer, and it was released and various other Kodak film formats for Imax in theaters around the world. So from a historical perspective, though, I found that kind of ironic that they used Kodak film to tell the story of how America entered the atomic age using technology from a company that was so closely tied to it all, Kodak.

00:34:48:13 – 00:34:58:24
Dan LeFebvre
And that’s something that you talk about in your book. Is it true that the actual Kodak film company was involved in the chemical production of weapons grade uranium back in the 1940s?

00:34:58:26 – 00:35:18:08
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah, yeah. And this is really at the heart of, of my my new book, Tales of Mines and Chemistry, which talks about how Kodak and specifically the Tennessee Eastman Company, which was its main chemical subsidiary. So how those two companies really one company, but two branches of one company came to run the Whitehall plant at Oak Ridge.

00:35:18:10 – 00:35:35:19
Alice Lovejoy
So again, Y-12 is a huge part of Oak Ridge. It has many, many buildings. It’s running the electromagnetic separation process. So why this Kodak, which is a company that we know for its film and for its cameras, is really the key figure in the history of photography, maybe globally. How does this come to play such a crucial role?

00:35:35:19 – 00:36:00:09
Alice Lovejoy
And the Manhattan Project and what’s interesting is that the answer to this stretches back to, the history of safety film. So the less flammable cellulose acetate film that has been basically universally used since the early 1950s and as a successor to cellulose nitrate film, which is, basically the same thing as nitrocellulose and was used in the first part of the 20th century, to make film based.

00:36:00:09 – 00:36:24:26
Alice Lovejoy
So the plastic that goes under film emulsion and what I point to in the book is that, so again, as you say, Oppenheimer, which is a story about one of the men behind the Manhattan Project, was shot on 65 millimeter, which is the Kodak format, on cellulose acetate that’s used, do one up to 70 millimeter production prints and 65 millimeter is the film that requires the largest amount of cellulose acetate.

00:36:24:26 – 00:36:48:07
Alice Lovejoy
And that’s the material that brought Kodak to the bomb. So there’s an industrial connection here that goes very quickly through weapons. Because safety film is made using cellulose acetate, safety film is made using the chemicals acetic acid and acetic and hydride. Those chemicals brought Tennessee Eastman from safety film to making the anti-submarine explosive RDX during World War two.

00:36:48:09 – 00:37:08:28
Alice Lovejoy
And this was happening at the Holston Ordnance Works in Tennessee, the world’s largest ammunition plant at the time, again operated by the world’s largest film manufacturer. And this is a project that was run by Leslie R Groves and the Army Corps of Engineers. And so Groves sees how well Tennessee Eastman is able to sort of build and operate the Holston Ordnance Works at the same time.

00:37:08:28 – 00:37:20:18
Alice Lovejoy
And he says, okay, this is a company that’s going to do a good job, running Y-12. They know how to put these projects together. They know how to operate factories. So let’s ask them to do it.

00:37:20:21 – 00:37:43:15
Dan LeFebvre
Wow. Yeah. So it wasn’t completely random at all. It was they were already doing something beforehand. And then. Yeah, Groves comes in and asks him, wow, it’s fascinating. Well, after everything we’ve learned today, it seems obvious that Oppenheimer is just giving us a small peek at the true story surrounding the Manhattan Project. So let’s say you’re put in charge of making a movie all about the Manhattan Project.

00:37:43:15 – 00:37:49:12
Dan LeFebvre
It’s not called just Oppenheimer. What’s one approach that you would take to telling the story on screen?

00:37:49:15 – 00:38:08:29
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah, and it’s a great question because I would take a different approach in the great man approach, which I think Oppenheimer does really well. I think it goes into this all these questions, as I’ve said with Einstein, with Strauss as the foil, etc. it’s a really good adaptation of the biography, but I think the smaller stories are stories of smaller or less famous people are equally important.

00:38:09:01 – 00:38:37:03
Alice Lovejoy
Because these are stories that were crucial to shaping the Manhattan Project and making it what it was. So one of the characters that I follow in my book is a man, named Alfred Dean, who is, known as the Kodak Spy. So slack was an employee of Kodak who, started in the Rochester, New York factory, moved down to the Tennessee Eastman factories in Kingsport, Tennessee, eventually moved to the Holston Ordnance Works, and then works at Y-12.

00:38:37:06 – 00:39:03:09
Alice Lovejoy
And from his time in Rochester onward, he was spying for the Soviet Union. While he was at Kodak, whether that was giving the Soviets color film technology formulas or whether it was, in the case of Holston Ordnance Works actually giving them samples of RDX, this explosive. So slack was not a spy, though, in a way, we might want to show a spy, if you’re like a the genre of the spy film, right?

00:39:03:09 – 00:39:20:07
Alice Lovejoy
He wasn’t in it for the politics. He was in it for the money. He really didn’t want to be doing it. He was kind of like stuck in this relationship. He wasn’t a very good spy. He kind of like, talk too much. And there are these, you know, things said about him at the plant where he would, you know, he would chat about the atomic bomb even though you were supposed to be doing that.

00:39:20:10 – 00:39:50:01
Alice Lovejoy
And I think that story is interesting because he paid for this. I mean, he went to prison in 1915, again at the height of the Red scare. And his story doesn’t really neatly fit into Cold War narratives because, again, his betrayal was pretty mild compared with people like class folks who we do see in Oppenheimer, who was a Soviet spy who was there, or David Greenglass, who was also at Los Alamos, and who worked for the same Soviet handler as Alfred Dean slack.

00:39:50:03 – 00:40:08:01
Alice Lovejoy
And he’s also slack is also interesting because he’s one of those many, many thousands of people who are working on the industrial processes of the Manhattan Project who don’t have these kinds of big names, but were equally important. And there’s been some wonderful work done to by historians on the women who worked on the Manhattan Project, whose roles were were absolutely crucial.

00:40:08:07 – 00:40:16:26
Alice Lovejoy
But I think the smaller story is the stories of people like slack are, interesting. And they tell us they tell us a lot about the nuances of that period.

00:40:16:28 – 00:40:37:07
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. That’s fascinating. I guess. You know, there’s always there’s always people that, don’t love their jobs. But you can I think of, you know, as spies. You don’t think of a spy as somebody that. Why would you be a spy if you don’t want to? If you don’t love what you’re doing? It’s such a high risk. But I guess the reward, if the reward is there and it’s monetary and that’s what you want, then.

00:40:37:09 – 00:40:52:28
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah. And I think he was persuaded. Right. I think there was there was persuasion. And that happened by convincing handlers and so yeah, it’s it is one of those odd stories. And he really gets stuck in jail for quite a while. His life is and is ruined by this. And, you know, to be fair, he did spy right?

00:40:53:02 – 00:41:02:24
Alice Lovejoy
He he did it. But it is, in the context of early 50s, where everything is so heightened as we see in Oppenheimer, it can have these consequences that might not have occurred at a different moment.

00:41:02:26 – 00:41:24:21
Dan LeFebvre
That would be a fascinating movie. Speaking of other movies, is it all right if I shift the conversation away from the Oppenheimer movie for a moment? Yeah. I’d like to get your take on current events that I’m sure will be a movie in the future. As a history podcast, it talks about movies and TV shows. We have covered a lot of political events in history, from the Watergate scandal in all the president men to the more recent Nuremberg movie.

00:41:24:23 – 00:41:41:04
Dan LeFebvre
And even with today’s topic, as we talked about Oppenheimer, his political views impacted not only his own life and career, but also impacted how we view his part in history. And all of that is to say, this is not a political podcast, but I think the current events of today will end up in the movies at some point in the future.

00:41:41:09 – 00:41:57:19
Dan LeFebvre
And when it does, I’m sure the events that took place in Minneapolis will play a big part. So as a film historian who lives in Minneapolis, what do you want the filmmakers of the future to know about the true story right now that they should make sure to include in their movies?

00:41:57:21 – 00:42:20:20
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah. Thanks. That’s a great and a really important question because I think, there is a widespread sense, among those of us who live in Minneapolis, in the Twin Cities, and Minnesota, that we are living through history in a way that is, very pronounced right away. That’s not too different from what happened in 2020 after George Floyd was murdered.

00:42:20:22 – 00:42:47:04
Alice Lovejoy
In a lot. It’s playing out in the same area of Minneapolis, in south Minneapolis. So I think what’s interesting about this moment, watching it from the inside, is that there’s so much documentation, there’s so many cameras everywhere showing what’s happening, whether these are, observers, legal observers, with cameras, whether these are, body cameras on federal officers, whether these are drones coming out with their photojournalists.

00:42:47:06 – 00:43:09:28
Alice Lovejoy
And there’s also a lot of national and international media coming here, right, flying in to document what’s happening. And what a lot of what we see in the media is pictures of, physical brutality. We see a lot of pictures of, tear gas, federal forces, use of tear gas and pepper spray, chemical munitions, and all this is happening.

00:43:09:28 – 00:43:33:09
Alice Lovejoy
It’s as accurate, but it also leads to the war zone comparisons that are made by, many media outlets, which are not incorrect. Those are those are correct in many ways, but they’re, the media isn’t able to get, to aspects of what’s happening that I think are fundamental but are less, less, attractive as subjects of documentation of filming.

00:43:33:11 – 00:43:55:25
Alice Lovejoy
One is and I will say, some journalists have done a very good job with this. One is the experiences of people who are in hiding, who cannot go to school or cannot go to work, can’t buy groceries, can’t seek medical care because, they’re afraid of being detained, many simply for the color of their skin. And so this is a less again, it’s a less, it’s a harder thing to document, right?

00:43:55:25 – 00:44:28:22
Alice Lovejoy
When you’re on the streets, when you’re when you’re somewhere that you haven’t been before. Because these are stories of isolation and fear and often deep need. And they’re playing out, you know, in the space of a house or an apartment. They’re one of the central stories of this moment. The second thing is, I think the deep and really extraordinarily, supportive and enthusiastic networks of people who are just there supporting their neighbors and their communities, whether that’s through helping people with rent, helping people with food, and so on.

00:44:28:24 – 00:44:48:17
Alice Lovejoy
There’s a lot of solidarity and, cooperation that’s just about taking care of your neighbors. That’s less dramatic. And it’s also quieter. But I think it’s also an essential story to the moment. So I would hope that future filmmakers, can see that the war like aspects of what’s happening here are one part of the story.

00:44:48:18 – 00:45:10:07
Alice Lovejoy
It’s real. It’s happening. But, I would encourage them to have the courage to make a film that can be quieter and less dramatic. And that would also see all of what’s happening with and longer histories of racial injustice and of community organizing, in Minnesota that are really informing what’s happening here. And we’re not that far off from 2020.

00:45:10:09 – 00:45:30:21
Alice Lovejoy
And I say courage because. Right. More films sell. They sell better. They’re, you know, they’re easy to picture. It’s easy to to, you know, to make these kinds of dramatic images. But it’s harder to make a film that is quieter, right, that is playing out inside a house or an apartment or that’s about neighbors just working together.

00:45:30:23 – 00:45:46:27
Alice Lovejoy
I will say this film could still be made on 70 millimeter. I would love to see a quiet film about, a changed everyday life made on 70 millimeter because you can include so much detail, even everyday detail. But would it be a great man story? It would not be a great man story. And I think that’s the point, right?

00:45:46:27 – 00:45:50:29
Alice Lovejoy
That this is a story that’s holding out, in everyday life in many ways.

00:45:51:01 – 00:46:15:27
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. Yeah, it’s it is easier to throw up, you know, action movies and explosions and, and big things that you see in war movies and, get an audience that way, as opposed to not saying the films can’t tell good stories, but it is difficult to tell a good story. And when you can just make big explosions, you know.

00:46:16:01 – 00:46:35:21
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah. I think there’s a commercial, right. There’s a, there’s a, you know, how do you make money making movies, too, is one of the questions. And I think, what happens if we make a movie that’s less dramatic but no less, urgent? Right. In terms of what’s actually happening? So I think it’s a great question, and it’s a question about and an accurate portrayal of reality that is many things at once.

00:46:35:21 – 00:46:37:21
Alice Lovejoy
And that’s hard to do in a film.

00:46:37:24 – 00:47:01:05
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, yeah. I’m just curious because something that we see in a lot of, historical movies especially, you know, talking about something like Oppenheimer, that’s, during World War II, you know, many decades ago is they use a lot of documentation. And for something, it’s I think it’s easier to do, like in a military film where the military documents everything.

00:47:01:07 – 00:47:21:14
Dan LeFebvre
So would you have a recommendation for what people now can do to help document some of those lesser known stories that aren’t going to get documented by, the military or the, you know, like in Oppenheimer. You know, they have documents of everything that happened there that filmmakers can then go back to, what do you think?

00:47:21:14 – 00:47:26:09
Dan LeFebvre
What would you recommend as being able to document some of those smaller stories for feature filmmakers?

00:47:26:12 – 00:47:48:27
Alice Lovejoy
Yeah, and I think part of this is about communities documenting their own work and individuals documenting their own work. We know that diaries have played a huge role. Written diaries have played a huge role in this over time. And Frank’s diary being sort of the most famous example of this. And, I think that the amount of, footage that’s being made every day will be crucial as well.

00:47:48:29 – 00:48:07:18
Alice Lovejoy
I think that, you know, the way we use images has changed a great deal, right? Images are being I as a huge part of this. But also the way images are being slowed down and analyzed forensically and used for identification and all sorts of things, you know, that law enforcement wears them too, like there’s all sorts of different ways that images are being used now.

00:48:07:25 – 00:48:21:24
Alice Lovejoy
And I think that’s part of the truth of the moment to the reality of the moment is that there are so many different ways it’s being, shown and represented. And the more that can be done to preserve them and to sort the I from the rest, I think that’s crucial too.

00:48:21:27 – 00:48:57:04
Dan LeFebvre
Well, thank you so much for coming on to chat about the movie Oppenheimer. Even though we’ve mostly talked about one movie today, it’s worth remembering that the entire cinema industry exists because of the chemistry and technology that made motion pictures possible. And when we’re watching a movie, a war movie like Oppenheimer, I think most people don’t really think about how the technology that made the movie itself possible intersected with war time weapon development, but that’s a connection that you’ve explored in your book called Tales of Militant Chemistry The Film Factory in a Century of War, and I’ve got a link to that in the show notes for everyone to pick up their own copy.

00:48:57:11 – 00:49:04:16
Dan LeFebvre
And while they do that, can you share something that you came across in your research that would come as a surprise to the average moviegoer?

00:49:04:23 – 00:49:30:22
Alice Lovejoy
Great question. I think beyond the fact that the Manhattan Project was so closely tied to Eastman Kodak and to film manufacturing, I think we can go back a little bit and think about George Eastman again, the founder of Kodak, somebody who was closely involved in, the the way that cinema evolved in the way it developed, that he, you know, he grew cotton, on a kind of gentleman’s farm in North Carolina.

00:49:30:22 – 00:49:54:20
Alice Lovejoy
Now, cotton as as many of your listeners will know, is a crucial ingredient in film. It’s, source of the cellulose that goes into much motion. Picture film. And it’s a it’s a material with a very, dark history, racialist history in the United States that goes back to, to, chattel slavery and, and to, to many, many other, you know, plantations, etc., and the United States.

00:49:54:20 – 00:50:20:12
Alice Lovejoy
And so thinking about those connections that, that existed between the, really the founder of film, somebody who made it into the mass of industrial products that became in the 20th century. And these materials is something that I wasn’t expecting to find. But that underscores for me just how, closely tied this material is to events in the 20th century that go beyond cinema.

00:50:20:12 – 00:50:34:06
Alice Lovejoy
Right? Which is something we see in Oppenheimer, to which we see, you know, the links between nuclear weapons and film is not something that we necessarily think of, but in my view, they are two of the most important technologies of the 20th century atomic weapons and film.

00:50:34:08 – 00:50:37:13
Dan LeFebvre
Well, I’ll make sure to add a link to that in the show notes. Thanks again so much for your time, Alice.

00:50:37:15 – 00:50:38:23
Alice Lovejoy
Thanks for having me. It was a pleasure.

The Movie

The movie fades up to the sounds of rain pattering as Cillian Murphy’s version of a young J. Robert Oppenheimer watches. Then, with a cut to a massive explosion, we get some text on the screen that reads:

“Prometheus stole fire from the gods and gave it to man. For this he was chained to a rock and tortured for eternity.”

Then, just as quickly as it cuts to the quote, it cuts back to an older J. Robert Oppenheimer.

The True Story

As you can probably guess, that comes from Greek mythology. It’s not really a direct quote of anything, though, but rather it’s more of a paraphrased synopsis of the Prometheus myth.

The whole story is thousands of lines of text, so I won’t include the whole thing here either, but I’ll add a link to it in the show notes if you want to read it all. The movie’s summary is pretty good, though, considering they’re breaking it all down into just a couple lines.

Prometheus was a Titan who was bound by Zeus’s servants Hephaestus, Power, and Force as punishment for stealing fire from the gods and giving it to the humans. That’s how humans were able to progress to a more civilized society with technology thanks to harnessing fire. When he was bound, Prometheus’s torture was basically being exposed to the scorching sun by the day, freezing at night, and then an eagle would eat his liver. The next day, the liver would regenerate and the cycle repeated itself.

The Movie

Back in the movie, we see Oppenheimer going to Europe to study under Patrick Blackett in Cambridge. He’s played by James D’Arcy in the movie. While Oppenheimer is there, the movie focuses on a rather curious moment when Oppenheimer injects Blackett’s apple with potassium cyanide. Then, the next day, he seems to have a change of heart and when he rushes back to the classroom while Neils Bohr is talking to Blackett, and Oppenheimer knocks the apple down just in time, claiming there was a wormhole in the apple.

The True Story

While the movie doesn’t really focus on Oppenheimer’s time as a student in the United States as it does in Europe, it is correct to mention him going to Europe to study under Patrick Blackett at Cambridge.

To back up for a moment, though, what we don’t see much of in the movie is Oppenheimer’s time at Harvard. He went there in 1922 when he was 18 years old and majored in chemistry. That’s how he got interested in physics, when one of his professors named Percy Bridgman taught a course on thermodynamics that interested Oppenheimer. And so, after graduating summa cum laude in 1925 after only three years, Oppenheimer went to Christ’s College, Cambridge, to study physics.

More specifically, that was at the Cavendish Laboratory at the University of Cambridge’s Department of Physics. Oppenheimer was there for about a year from 1925 to 1926.

And that scene with the poisoned apple? That really happened!

The movie implies that Oppenheimer was rather clumsy in the lab, and that’s a bit of truth that frustrated Oppenheimer. On top of that, Professor Blackett was an incredibly demanding teacher. This grew into a resentment for Blackett and by the time the autumn of 1925 rolled around, the then-22-year-old Oppenheimer was struggling badly and feeling incompetent with his lab work.

So, Oppenheimer used chemicals from the lab and injected them into an apple on Blackett’s desk. There’s some debate around exactly what he used and how much—after all, it’s not like this is the kind of thing that gets documented—but we know it happened because he confessed what he’d done to one of his friends. It was most likely cyanide, and probably wasn’t enough to kill him, just to make him sick.

But, that’s irrelevant, because just like we see in the movie, Blackett never ate the apple. Although the movie shows Oppenheimer having a change of mind and rushing back to toss the apple before Blackett can eat it, and that part of the movie seems to be a bit of dramatic license.

The sources I saw merely mentioned that Professor Blackett simply tossed the apple without ever knowing it had been poisoned. There’s nothing I could find that suggested Oppenheimer had a change of mind and rushed back, or that he was even there when the apple was discarded.

The Movie

Going back to the movie, during the apple scene we also see Oppenheimer talking to the visiting lecturer Neils Bohr. In that conversation and due to Oppenheimer’s lack of skills in the lab, Bohr recommends Oppenheimer go to Germany to study theoretical physics under Max Born because there’s no lab work required for that.

The True Story

Since we already learned the poisoned apple story didn’t happen exactly like that in the movie, it’s probably not a surprise to learn this other side of it didn’t happen the same way either.

What is accurate, though, is that the Oppenheimer did meet the Danish physicist Neils Bohr. While the movie doesn’t really mention much about who he was other than to suggest Oppenheimer was looking forward to hearing him speak. He won a Nobel Prize in Physics in 1922, so when he visited Cambridge just a few years later, I can only imagine how excited Oppenheimer must’ve been to meet one of the most respected minds in his field.

Unlike what we see in the movie, though, it wasn’t Neils Bohr who recommended Oppenheimer go to Germany to study under Max Born.

As you might expect, Max Born was a German physicist and he was also highly respected in the 1920s, and after World War II went on to become one of the people who was instrumental in the development of quantum mechanics.

So, probably the biggest change is the movie simplified the events.

In the true story, Oppenheimer actually met both Neils Bohr and Max Born while he was at Cambridge. Not necessarily at the same time, though, so it makes sense why the movie simplified it all. But amidst Oppenheimer’s depression from his poor lab work, and I’m sure the whole apple debacle didn’t help, but Oppenheimer decided to leave Cambridge to go to the University of GURT-in-en (Göttingen) in Germany so he could study theoretical physics under Max Born.

GURT-ing-en

Unlike his time in Cambridge, Oppenheimer flourished in his theoretical studies. Just six months after moving to Germany, Oppenheimer graduated with his PhD and co-authored the Born-Oppenheimer approximation with Max Born. He was making a name for himself.

The Movie

After studying in Germany, the movie talks about Oppenheimer returning to the United States where he sets up the theoretical physics department at the University of California, Berkley. Then after all of this setup of Oppenheimer’s education and early career are taking place while we see black and white sequences with Robert Downey Jr.’s version of Lewis Strauss hiring Oppenheimer to work at what the movie only calls “the Institute.”

The True Story

This is where we really start to see the movie bouncing around in the timeline, because Oppenheimer wasn’t appointed as the director of the Institute for Advanced Study until 1947. That’s clearly after World War II and the Manhattan Project. Since we’re following the movie’s timeline of events, we’ll be bouncing around a bit as well, but here is a quick overview of Oppenheimer’s timeline in the true story.

After graduating with his doctorate from the University of Göttingen in Germany in March of 1927, Oppenheimer stayed in Europe for post-doc studies where he spent time in Leiden and Zurich studying under the great minds of the day.

In the fall of 1929, he returned to the U.S. and accepted a position as an associate professor at UC Berkley. He stayed there, but in the spring of 1930, he also started teaching at Caltech. For the next twelve years he went back and forth, splitting time teaching as a full professor at UC Berkley while also being a full professor at Caltech, although he had a special agreement with UC Berkley to release him for six weeks out of the year to teach at Caltech for a term.

This is the time that he built UC Berkley’s theoretical physics program into something of renown that we hear Robert Downey Jr.’s version of Lewis Strauss mention in the movie. But that was in 1947 when Oppenheimer joined the Institute, as we talked about before.

So, from 1930 until 1942, he was splitting time at UC Berkley and Caltech. In 1942, he was given leave to work on the Manhattan Project, and then he returned to Caltech in 1946. He resigned both Caltech and UC Berkley in 1947 to take the job of director at the Institute for Advanced Study.

The Movie

Speaking of the Institute for Advanced Study, in the movie that’s where we see another famous scientist: Albert Einstein. If we’re to believe the movie’s version of history, Oppenheimer seems to think Einstein is a has-been. For example, there’s a line of dialogue early in the movie when Strauss tells Oppenheimer that Einstein is the “greatest scientific mind of our time.” Oppenheimer replies by saying, “Of his time.”

The True Story

While I couldn’t find anything in my research to indicate this exact line of dialogue about Einstein being the greatest scientific mind of “his” time, but the movie is correctly capturing the essence of the relationship between Einstein and Oppenheimer. Before he worked at the Institute, Oppenheimer visited Princeton in 1935. After that, he wrote a letter to his brother where he said, “Princeton is a madhouse: its solipsistic luminaries shining in separate & helpless desolation. Einstein is completely cuckoo.”

About ten years later, Einstein said of the theory Oppenheimer was primarily focusing on, “The quantum theory is without a doubt a useful theory, but it does not reach to the bottom of things. I never believed that it constitutes the true conception of nature.”

Despite these differences, they still had a mutual respect and were cordial with each other. After Einstein passed away in 1955, Oppenheimer wrote publicly that, “…physicists lost their greatest colleague…”

The Movie

Heading back to the movie’s timeline, there’s a line of dialogue from Lewis Strauss as he’s showing Oppenheimer around the Institute when he says the position comes with a house for his family: His wife and two children.

And that introduces us to the next major plot point, because the movie doesn’t focus on Robert Oppenheimer’s personal life a lot, but we do see two relationships that he has…and according to the movie they overlap. First, he has a girlfriend named Jean Tatlock, but then he gets a married woman named Kitty Harrison pregnant. Since Kitty is pregnant, Robert leaves Jean while Kitty leaves her husband to marry Robert. But then, later in the movie, we see Robert having an affair with Jean again.

The True Story

This back-and-forth sort of relationship that we see in the movie does a pretty good job capturing what J. Robert Oppenheimer’s personal life was really like. The key thing the movie does, though, is to mess with the timeline because once again it’s jumping around.

Remember, Oppenheimer’s job at the Institute was in 1947. So, his wife at that time was the woman we see in the movie: Kitty Harrison. She’s played by Emily Blunt.

Kitty’s surname in the movie is actually from one of her husbands before Oppenheimer. Her maiden name was Vissering. She married Frank Ramseyer in 1932, then had that annulled in 1933. The next year, she married Joe Dallet. That lasted until he died in 1937, and then in 1938 she married Richard Harrison. They were divorced in 1940 when she married J. Robert Oppenheimer.

The two children Robert and Kitty had together, Peter and Toni, were the only kids either of them had.

The Movie

In the movie, we see Robert having an girlfriend in Jean Tatlock. But he sleeps with Kitty Harrison, who was a married woman as we just learned, and gets her pregnant. So, Kitty divorces her husband, Robert breaks things off with Jean, and then Robert and Kitty get married.

The True Story

Once again, the movie gets the essence of the story correct, but the timeline was sped up and changed from history.

So, here’s a quick rundown to unravel the historical timeline.

Robert Oppenheimer met Jean Tatlock in the Spring of 1936 when he was teaching at UC Berkley. She was a student there, and it didn’t take long for a romance to blossom. And if you’re wondering, since he was a teacher and she was a student, he was 32 and she was 22. Their relationship developed quickly and Jean had a big influence on shaping Robert’s left-leaning political views. Robert proposed to Jean twice, both of which she rejected, and then in the Spring of 1939, she broke it off with him.

A few months later, in August of 1939, Robert met Kitty Harrison at a party hosted by another physicist. At that time, she was 29 and he was 35. Almost immediately, an affair started. They didn’t hide it, either, as there were reports of Robert and Kitty driving around together in the open.

In the summer of 1940, there was a notable event when Robert Oppenheimer invited Richard and Kitty Harrison to his ranch in New Mexico. Richard Harrison declined the invitation saying he was too busy with work, but Kitty accepted. So, another physicist named Robert Serber along with his wife Charlotte, picked up Kitty in Pasadena and drove her to Oppenheimer’s ranch in New Mexico where they found Robert’s brother, Frank, and Frank’s wife Jackie there.

So, again, the affair wasn’t really a secret. Oh, and at that time, Kitty was pregnant with Robert’s child…who would be Peter, their firstborn.

Well, you can probably see where this is going.

On November 1^st, 1940, Kitty divorced her husband. The very next day, on November 2^nd, 1940, she married Robert Oppenheimer.

But…things weren’t all sunshine and rainbows, because only a couple months after marrying Kitty, who should show back up in Robert’s life? Jean. She reconnected with him and the historical record shows that Robert’s first New Years celebration as a married man, he spent it not with his wife Kitty, but Jean Tatlock.

For the next few years, Robert and Jean maintained contact a couple times a year. While we don’t know the specifics of what happened each time, it’s probably safe to say they were romantic connections.

Despite this, from what we can tell, Kitty knew about Robert’s affair with Jean, and she seemed to tolerate it. Although, to be fair, some have debated just how much she knew. Maybe she only knew them to be friends at first. We don’t really know for sure where that line was crossed, but we know from the FBI tapping their lines in 1943 that Oppenheimer himself said he told Kitty about the affair with Jean, so we can assume she at least knew by then.

The Movie

Speaking of Jean, I’ll throw out a quick content warning here, because something else we see in the movie is a suicide. It happens when Oppenheimer tells Jean that he can’t do the affair anymore, she gets depressed and takes her own life. Robert is shaken by this, but Kitty tells him that he doesn’t get to commit the sin and then make other people feel sorry for him.

The True Story

Unfortunately, that’s true. That was in January of 1944 when Jean was discovered in her bathtub in San Francisco. There was an unsigned note that suggested suicide, and officially it was ruled to be the result of ingesting sedatives and alcohol.

The movie makes it seem like she did it because Robert broke off their affair, but there’s been a lot of controversies surrounding her death.

For example, the note was unsigned. An autopsy suggested she’d eaten a full meal before she died, which the doctor at the time found curious since it’d slow down the effect of the drugs she’d ingested. Her body was discovered by her father, John Tatlock, who moved it from the bathtub to the sofa and then burned a bunch of her letters in the fireplace before calling the funeral parlor—it was the parlor that contacted the police some four hours after she’d died.

Curious things, perhaps, and to be fair as with many debated events in history, not all of those are documented as well as others. But, if there was a conspiracy around her death, that begs the question: Why?

Well, to go down that road, we’d have to remember the timeline. January of 1944. At this point, Robert Oppenheimer was working at the top-secret Manhattan Project. Jean Tatlock was a known member of the Communist Party. If you recall, a moment ago I mentioned the FBI tapped Oppenheimer’s line in 1943 and those revealed that he talked to Kitty about the affair with Jean. The whole reason the FBI was tapping his lines to begin with was because of his association with the Communist Party. They started that in March of 1941, even before he was recruited into the Manhattan Project. Of course, it didn’t stop once he was heading up the top-secret project, so that’s why some think perhaps there was a government coverup to kill Jean Tatlock to keep atomic secrets from getting into the hands of the Soviets.

Then again, Oppenheimer himself believed Jean committed suicide. She was clinically depressed, and she worked as a psychiatrist, so she had access to sedatives pretty easily.

What do you think? If you have any other details or research you’ve done, let me know!

The Movie

For now, if we head back into the movie for the next major plot point, it’s Oppenheimer being recruited into the Manhattan Project by Matt Damon’s version of General Leslie Groves.

But the way we see this happening in the movie, Groves tells Oppenheimer that his name didn’t even come up in the search for a project director even though it was Oppenheimer who brought quantum physics to America. So, the impression I got from the movie was basically if it wasn’t for Groves then Oppenheimer wouldn’t be involved in the Manhattan Project at all.

The True Story

In the true story, that’s not really how it happened. To know what really happened, let’s go back to around the time of Oppenheimer marrying Kitty in late 1940, and then Peter being born in May of 1941. While that was going on in his personal life, in his professional life, Oppenheimer was collaborating on a radiation lab with Ernest Lawrence, who won the 1939 Nobel Prize in physics. That lab was where Lawrence had invented the cyclotron, a particle accelerator he’d patented back in 1932.

After the United States entered World War II, Lawrence recruited Oppenheimer to work on fission and fast neutron experiments at the UC Berkley lab. As you recall, he’d built the theoretical physics program there, so from July to September of 1942, Oppenheimer assembled a group of theoretical physicists to come up with the principles of a bomb design. Seeing as Oppenheimer was the one who built the theoretical physics program at UC Berkley anyway, over those few short months he became a leader of that group.

So, all of that is to say:

That is why U.S. Army General Leslie R. Groves recruited Oppenheimer on October 15^th, 1942 to head up something called Project Y. About a month later, the two men visited Los Alamos, New Mexico for what they called Site Y.

The Movie

And that leads us into something else about the movie, because for a movie called Oppenheimer, it makes sense to focus on him as the main character. We do see a few others, like Isidor Rabi and at one point Robert brings his brother Frank in on the project, but the movie also mentions having to build a town with churches and schools and such, so it’s obviously not showing us the full scale.

The True Story

Now would be a good time to clarify the term “Manhattan Project” and why I’m referring to something in Los Alamos, New Mexico. This project was a lot bigger scale than what we see in the movie.

So, General Groves was from the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, and in August of 1942, they created something they called the Manhattan Engineer District, or MED. On the surface, it was routine construction in New York City. The true purpose was to cover up the work required for the atomic bomb project.

Over time, that name morphed from the Manhattan Engineer District to the Manhattan Project even though the project itself had sites around the country. As we just learned, Los Alamos, New Mexico was considered “Site Y,” while Oak Ridge, Tennessee was “Site X” and Hanover, Washington was “Site W.”

The Los Alamos location was where the primary work for the bomb design. That’s where Oppenheimer was at, along with about 6,000 workers. The other sites, Oak Ridge and Hanover, were more for providing the materials needed and they were much larger in scale than Los Alamos. There were about 50,000 people working in Hanover that focused primarily on producing plutonium, while Oak Ridge had another 75,000 people focusing on enriching uranium.

So, all in all, the Manhattan Project was a lot larger than what we see in the movie. But again, it’s called “Oppenheimer” and not “Manhattan Project.”

Actually, if you want to learn more about this, I’ve got another companion episode to this one with historian Alice Lovejoy that focuses more on the movie’s portrayal of the Manhattan Project. You can find that over at basedonatruestorypodcast.com/oppenheimer.

The Movie

Back to the movie now, and something that’s very easy to do when we’re watching a historical movie is to look at it from today’s perspective with the knowledge we have today. With that in mind, I thought Oppenheimer did a good job doing was helping us get a sense for what it was like before the nuclear age, because we see Oppenheimer having a major concern that an atomic bomb might start a chain reaction that would just keep going and going until the entire atmosphere has been destroyed and, by extension, everyone and everything on the planet would die.

The True Story

While the movie dramatizes the specifics of it, it’s very true that Oppenheimer and other scientists working on the Manhattan Project considered the possibility that detonating a nuclear device might start an unstoppable chain reaction that’d basically ignite the Earth’s atmosphere and end the world.

Although, as scary as that sounds, it’s often described as more of a “nonzero” risk. So, technically it’s not zero percent chance, but a miniscule chance that from a practical perspective is basically zero.

Except, we’re talking about the end of the world here, so you can understand why even a “nonzero” risk is still worth making sure it doesn’t happen.

The fear was mostly from the physicist Edward Teller, who was worried that a fission bomb would ignite the nitrogen in the atmosphere, or perhaps the hydrogen in the ocean, and just keep using that as fuel to burn. That was as early as 1942.

So, they did the math.

It wasn’t until 1946 that two other physicists at Los Alamos named Hans Bethe and Emil Konopinski formally published a paper that proved the reaction couldn’t continue on forever due to dropping air density and temperature thresholds. That was after the Trinity Test in 1945, but they’d obviously been working on it before then and from what we can tell, they had the math figured out by the time of the test, just hadn’t published the formal paper before it.

The Movie

Speaking of the Trinity Test, let’s head back to the movie because we’re at the point of the test itself. According to the movie, there’s an immense pressure to just use the atomic bomb to end World War II. The military has a list of 11 Japanese cities, and they want to drop two bombs on two of those cities. With a tight deadline, they need to detonate an atomic bomb to make sure it works and gather data like what’s a safe operating distance.

That’s how we get the test. In the movie, Groves asks Oppenheimer what they should call the test, and Oppenheimer says, “Batter my heart, three-person’d god.” Groves replies, “What?” to which Oppenheimer replies, “Trinity.”

It’s the first time an atomic bomb has been detonated and according to the movie, the test appears to be a massive success. As he’s watching this is when we see Oppenheimer use the now-famous quote, “I am become death. The destroyer of worlds.”

The True Story

In the true story, there wasn’t really a list of 11 Japanese cities like we see in the movie. There was actually about 16 cities that were considered by what the U.S. called the “Target Committee,” which was made up of 12 people at its height. Oppenheimer was the chair of the committee, along with members of the military and other scientists in the Manhattan Project.

By the spring of 1945, the 16 Japanese cities were narrowed down to five cities: Kyoto, Hiroshima, Yokohama, Kokura, and Niigata. They were chosen for size, military value, surrounding terrain to help amplify the bomb’s effects, as well as minimal previous bombing so they could see what effect the atomic bomb would have compared to other bombings.

Then came Monday, July 16^th, 1945. The day of the Trinity Test.

The name itself is something the movie alludes to when we see Oppenheimer say, “Batter my heart, three person’d God.” That’s a line from the 17^th-century poem from John Donne called Holy Sonnet XIV, which refers to the Christian Trinity. Much later when Groves asked him about the name, Oppenheimer said he wasn’t entirely sure why he picked it other than to think that “Trinity” might fit in with common Western-style names like “Three Rivers,” “Three Peaks,” and so on.

So, he must’ve thought the name “Trinity” wouldn’t attract much attention. Until it exploded, of course.

And the way see the Trinity Test itself happening in the movie is a pretty good re-enactment of what really happened that weekend. There were about 425 people at the Trinity Test site, which was roughly 210 miles south of Los Alamos, New Mexico. That broke down into about 250 scientists and engineers running the test, another 150 or so military as security, and between 20 to 30 VIPs. That included General Leslie Groves, who joined Oppenheimer at the primary command bunker that they called S-10,000 because it was 10,000 yards south of ground zero. That’s about 5.7 miles.

There were also scientists at N-10,000, and W-10,000, but there were mountains to the east so there wasn’t an E-10,000 post.

As for the goggles we see in the movie, those were real as well. The standard gear was dark lenses that filtered UV, and people were ordered to lie face-down, backs turned and put your arms over your eyes. Of course, not everyone did that. Most famously, Richard Feynman chose not to wear goggles and instead watched through the windshield of a truck.

At exactly 5:29 a.m. Mountain Time, the “Gadget” as they called it, detonated on a 100-foot tower. To say the blast exceeded all expectations was an understatement.

Radiation was higher than expected and people at the posts some 5.7 miles away were knocked over by the blast’s shockwave, although there weren’t any major injuries.

That brings us to the line, “Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.”

That’s a line from the Bhagavad Gita, a 700-verse Hindu scripture that Oppenheimer paraphrased into that now-famous quote. Chapter 11, Verse 32 says, “I am Time, the destroyer of worlds, grown great, come to consume the worlds.”

Oppenheimer never uttered those words aloud, but in a 1965 documentary for NBC, Oppenheimer recalled that seeing how successful the Trinity Test was, he recounted that he remembered the Bhagavad Gita verse.

The Movie

Heading back to the movie’s version of events, the very next scene after the successful Trinity Test is some military guys saying, “With respect, Dr. Oppenheimer, we’ll take it from here.” And with that, they pack up a bomb and drive away. It happens so quickly in the movie, it’s almost as if that seems to be that they had a successful test, so that’s immediately the end of the Manhattan Project overall.

The True Story

That’s not really what happened. At least not nearly as fast as the movie makes it seem. So, once again, let’s unravel the true story’s timeline.

The Trinity Test was July 16^th, 1945.

About three weeks later, on August 6^th, the uranium gun-type bomb called “Little Boy” was dropped on Hiroshima, resulting in between 70,000 and 80,000 deaths instantly. The movie shows Oppenheimer finding out about the bombs through the radio, but he still worked at Los Alamos, where he found out that evening along with everyone else. Cheers erupted among the teams at Los Alamos on hearing the news, and Oppenheimer joined in the champagne toasts. Although, despite the celebrations, he also had moral qualms with the news.

Three days later, more news. The plutonium bomb “Fat Man” was dropped Nagasaki, with between 35,000 to 40,000 deaths instantly. Back in Los Alamos, there weren’t the same kind of celebrations. Oppenheimer was reported to say, “No, this is too much.”

On August 14^th, 1945, Japan announced their intent to surrender. That’s U.S. time, in Japan it was August 15^th. This effectively ended World War II, although the official surrender document wasn’t signed until September 2^nd.

Then, on October 16^th, exactly three months after the Trinity Test, Oppenheimer resigned from his position in Los Alamos. The Manhattan Project continued on without him, though, until it was disbanded on August 15^th, 1947. As for Oppenheimer, he returned to Caltech where he resumed teaching, but quickly realized his heart wasn’t in it anymore.

The Movie

That leads us right up to Oppenheimer’s meeting with President Truman that we see in the movie. You know, the one where Oppenheimer says, “I feel that I have blood on my hands.” Truman replies with, “You think anyone in Hiroshima or Nagasaki gives a shit about who built the bomb? They care who dropped it. I did.”

Then, as Oppenheimer is shown out of the Oval Office, we can hear Truman in the background saying, “Don’t let that crybaby back in here.”

The True Story

That was a real meeting that took place on October 25^th, 1945, not long after Oppenheimer resigned from Los Alamos. And the movie is correct to show that Oppenheimer told President Truman that he feels like he has blood on his hands. Truman’s reply was a little different than the movie, albeit with the same effect. Ray Month’s book called Robert Oppenheimer: A Life Inside the Center quotes Truman as saying, “Blood on his hands; damn it, he hasn’t half as much blood on his hands as I have. You just don’t go around bellyaching about it.”

Then, he called Oppenheimer a crybaby and said, “I don’t want to see that son of a bitch in this office ever again.”

Except, unlike what we see in the movie, all of that supposedly happened after Oppenheimer had already left so it’s not like it was something he heard as he was leaving like the movie shows.

The Movie

After leaving the Manhattan Project, the movie circles back to something it shows throughout with Lewis Strauss answering to Congress about hiring Oppenheimer for the Institute.

While I was watching that play out in the movie, it gave me the impression that despite Oppenheimer’s contributions to the war effort, his reputation was almost immediately tarnished after the war because of what the movie calls “left-wing associations” and being tied to communism. The movie also seems to imply that Strauss was orchestrating it all, which is quite a turn for the guy who hired Oppenheimer at the Institute.

The True Story

For the most part, the way the movie shows this happening is pretty accurate. It’s dramatized, naturally, but the core elements are there.

What the movie skips are a few years between that meeting with President Truman at the end of 1945 and Oppenheimer’s 1946, when he consulted in Washington on atomic policy and was appointed to the Atomic Energy Commission, or AEC. That leads us up to 1947, which actually takes us back to the beginning of the movie when we learned that Lewis Strauss recruited Oppenheimer to be the director of the Institute for Advanced Study.

What started out as a good relationship turned sour mainly due to Oppenheimer’s Communist ties, such as his wife Kitty and his brother, Frank, who was a confirmed member of the Communist Party USA from 1937 until around 1940.

After World War II, Oppenheimer was famous, but as the Cold War sparked what we now know as the Red Scare, people started to grow suspicious of him. Rumors spread, and anyone with top secret clearance like Oppenheimer had for the Manhattan Project was called into question.

As for Lewis Strauss, that relationship started to sour a couple years after he recruited Oppenheimer. In fact, now that the Manhattan Project is a National Park, here’s a quote from the National Park Services’ website to explain the exact moment Strauss stopped liking Oppenheimer:

Robert Oppenheimer, testifying before the Joint Committee on Atomic Energy including Lewis Strauss in 1949 on the military usefulness of Iron 59 said in part, “You can use a shovel for atomic energy. In fact you do. You can use a bottle of beer for atomic energy. In fact you do.” These and other comments by Oppenheimer, who was known for making biting remarks, caused people to laugh. Strauss looked foolish and was furious. “There was a look of hatred there [on Strauss’ face] you don’t see very often…” said one observer.

It wasn’t just that one comment, though, as you’ll notice that article talks about “other comments.” The Los Alamos National Laboratory’s website has another article that discusses another comment from Oppenheimer in that same hearing:

Strauss believed that radioactive isotopes had military value and argued against exporting them. However, with little patience for those he considered intellectually inferior, Oppenheimer publicly humiliated Strauss by saying, “My own rating of the importance of isotopes . . . is that they are far less important than electronic devices, but far more important than, let us say, vitamins.”

In response, Strauss didn’t hide his look of hatred. Oppenheimer had publicly revealed that Strauss knew little about physics, particularly nuclear science.

After that hearing, Lewis Strauss held a grudge against Oppenheimer. So, as Oppenheimer’s public image started to deteriorate into the Cold War era of the early 1950s, Strauss certainly didn’t want to do Oppenheimer any favors. Quite the opposite, actually, because Strauss asked the FBI to track Oppenheimer in 1953. They did, and delivered a report to Strauss on November 20^th, 1953, which Strauss sent directly to President Eisenhower. Upon reviewing the report, Eisenhower decided to revoke Oppenheimer’s security clearance. That happened on December 21^st, 1953, and Oppenheimer was given the choice to resign or appeal. He appealed the decision, which was heard by a three-man panel. They voted two-to-one not to reinstate the security clearance.

And with that, Oppenheimer’s government career was effectively over. But even though the movie doesn’t talk much about the rest of Oppenheimer’s life, let’s fill out the rest of the true story.

Despite his government career effectively coming to an end when his security clearance was revoked, Oppenheimer was still the director at the Institute for Advanced Study, but in 1954 he started taking vacations with his wife and daughter to the small island of Saint John in the U.S. Virgin Islands. They enjoyed sailing together, and they must’ve loved it there because in 1957, Oppenheimer bought some land and built a vacation home there.

He continued working for the Institute for Advanced Study and in March of 1963 he was awarded the Enrico Fermi Award. That’s kind of a lifetime achievement award for scientists with the medal physically given by the President of the United States. Oppenheimer winning that award was a big deal considering how he’d been shunned by the scientific community.

Unfortunately, though, JFK was assassinated before he was able to give the award to Oppenheimer, so President Lyndon B. Johnson formally gave him the award in December of 1963. Jackie Kennedy attended the ceremony and told Oppenheimer how much her husband wanted him to have the medal.

Oppenheimer was diagnosed with throat cancer in 1965. He tried radiation treatment, but it was unsuccessful, so he resigned from the Institute for Advanced Study in 1966 due to his health. Then, on February 18^th, 1967, J. Robert Oppenheimer passed away in his sleep at home in Princeton at the age of 67.

I thought I’d end our story today with more recent news from just before the movie’s release in 2023. Because in 2022, the U.S. Secretary of Energy Jennifer Granholm issued this press release:

Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer occupies a central role in our history for leading the nation’s atomic efforts during World War II and planting the seeds for the Department of Energy’s national laboratories—the crown jewels of the American research and innovation ecosystem.

In 1954, the Atomic Energy Commission revoked Dr. Oppenheimer’s security clearance through a flawed process that violated the Commission’s own regulations. As time has passed, more evidence has come to light of the bias and unfairness of the process that Dr. Oppenheimer was subjected to while the evidence of his loyalty and love of country have only been further affirmed. The Atomic Energy Commission even selected Dr. Oppenheimer in 1963 for its prestigious Enrico Fermi Award citing his “scientific and administrative leadership not only in the development of the atomic bomb, but also in establishing the groundwork for the many peaceful applications of atomic energy.”

The Department of Energy has previously recognized J. Robert Oppenheimer in other ways including the creation of the Oppenheimer Science and Energy Leadership Program in 2017 to support early and mid-career scientists and engineers to “carry on [Dr. Oppenheimer’s] legacy of science serving society.”

As a successor agency to the Atomic Energy Commission, the Department of Energy has been entrusted with the responsibility to correct the historical record and honor Dr. Oppenheimer’s profound contributions to our national defense and the scientific enterprise at large. Today, I am pleased to announce the Department of Energy has vacated the Atomic Energy Commission’s 1954 decision In the Matter of J. Robert Oppenheimer.

00:00:02:01 – 00:00:23:08
Dan LeFebvre
Hello and welcome to based on a True Story. The podcast that compares your favorite Hollywood movies with history. The new Year is upon us, and this is my first time talking to you in 2026, so I thought it would be appropriate to go back into the vault for a classic episode about the topic that got me interested in history to begin with, The Legend of King Arthur.

00:00:23:11 – 00:00:40:22
Dan LeFebvre
Now, I’ll share a little bit more about how that tale got me interested in history, as well as an update for 2026 at the end of the episode, if you want to hear about that. But let’s jump into today’s movie. And there are a lot of King Arthur movies out there, but one of them marketed itself as being a more historically accurate adaptation of the story.

00:00:40:24 – 00:00:59:26
Dan LeFebvre
So that’s why today we’re going to be learning about the 2004 movie starring Clive Owen and Keira Knightley. And let’s start by refreshing our memory of the movie with a quick synopsis. As the movie starts, we quickly learn why this is a little different than other King Arthur movies because Clive Owen’s version of Arthur isn’t a king at the legendary Camelot.

00:01:00:00 – 00:01:28:11
Dan LeFebvre
Instead, he is a Roman trained commander leading a band of some marching warriors stationed in Britain near the end of Rome’s occupation. Their years of service are supposed to be over, and they’re eager to finally earn their freedom papers and go home. The twist comes when Rome orders them on one last mission ride north of Hadrian’s Wall into dangerous territory to rescue a Roman family before a ruthless Saxon army sweeps down and destroys everything in its path.

00:01:28:14 – 00:01:54:20
Dan LeFebvre
That decision pulls Arthur and his men straight into the collision between Rome’s empire, invading Saxons and the native Britons caught in the middle. Arthur’s soldiers in the movie are many names that we’re familiar with from the legends Lancelot, Gwyn, Galahad, Bors and Tristan. They reluctantly accept the mission, knowing that it might be a suicide run. And in the movie, we see them battling brutal weather, ambushes and the constant pressure of the advancing Saxon forces.

00:01:54:22 – 00:02:16:29
Dan LeFebvre
Along the way, they encounter two other familiar characters from the legend Guinevere and Merlin. In this version of the story, Guinevere is a world warrior rather than the courtly queen that we might expect, and Merlin appears to be more of a tribal leader than a wizard. As alliances shift, Arthur is forced to choose between his duty to Rome and his growing sense that Rome has abandoned Britain.

00:02:17:02 – 00:02:38:18
Dan LeFebvre
The story builds to a large scale showdown when Arthur and his soldiers decide to make a stand alongside the Britons instead of retreating with the Romans. The Saxons launch a fierce assault, and the battle claims the lives of some of Arthur’s closest companions, but the defenders ultimately repel the invaders. And in the aftermath, Arthur marries Gwen and steps into the role of King.

00:02:38:24 – 00:03:04:09
Dan LeFebvre
Not by divine sword or mystical prophecy, but by leading the people who chose to stand and fight with him. So you can start to get a sense of how 2004 is King Arthur is trying to be a more realistic version of the Arthurian legend, but how well does it do from a historical perspective? Today’s episode is with Dorsey Armstrong, a medieval literature professor at Purdue University who specializes in Arthurian legend.

00:03:04:12 – 00:03:35:15
Dan LeFebvre
And you might recognize her name from her great Courses lectures, like one of my personal favorites called King Arthur History and Legend. She’s also the editor of the official quarterly journal of the International Arthurian Society called Arthurian. Before we start uncovering the true story behind King Arthur, though, let’s set up our game for today’s episode. Now, if you’re new to the show since based on a true story, it’s all about separating fact from fiction in the movies, you’ll get to practice your skills at separating fact from fiction in this podcast episode with a game of two truths and a lie.

00:03:35:18 – 00:04:02:23
Dan LeFebvre
So I’m about to give you three things that we’ll talk about in this episode. Two of those are true. And one of them, well, one of them is just an all out lie. Are you ready? Okay, here they are. Number one, the famous Round Table appears in early fifth century Arthurian stories. Number two. Merlin was not associated with Arthur until the 12th century.

00:04:02:25 – 00:04:22:10
Dan LeFebvre
Number three. No Romans lived in villas north of Hadrian’s Wall. Got them. Okay, now, as you’re listening to our story today, see if you can figure out which one of those is a lie. And if you’re watching the video version of this, you can see I’m holding up an envelope. This has the answer inside, and we’ll open this at the end of the episode to see if you got it right.

00:04:22:13 – 00:04:35:29
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Now it’s time to connect with Dorsey Armstrong. All about the historical accuracy of 2004 King Arthur.

00:04:36:01 – 00:04:54:09
Dan LeFebvre
As longtime listeners of based on a true story. No, I always like to kick things off with an overall historical letter grade just to get a sense of how accurate a movie is from a ballpark perspective. So with that in mind, today we are looking at the 2004 King Arthur movie. What letter grade does it get.

00:04:54:11 – 00:05:08:09
Dorsey Armstrong
As far as a letter grade for its historical accuracy? I think that you would have to break it into sections, and some parts would get an A, and many parts would get an F.

00:05:08:12 – 00:05:10:17
Dan LeFebvre
That’s quite a gap.

00:05:10:19 – 00:05:39:14
Dorsey Armstrong
So yes, it it’s there are moments that, are so carefully, scrupulously paying attention to what would have been going on in the fifth century and what we know about early chronicle accounts of who King Arthur was, that pay attention to details and then others. There are other moments where they’ve just thrown everything out the window and they’ve, you know, done something kind of crazy with the story.

00:05:39:14 – 00:06:15:02
Dorsey Armstrong
And so but I will say this, what is great about this film, the further away I get from it in time, the more I like it, because despite what it gets wrong, it gets the idea of Arthur right. So even if it’s not an accurate historical representation of King Arthur, the character who is noble, good, beloved by his men, willing to sacrifice himself, all of those are the elements that we find in the Arthurian legend that have made it so popular.

00:06:15:04 – 00:06:32:17
Dan LeFebvre
It sounds like the movie is more about capturing the essence of the character instead of specific historical events, which we see a lot in movies. So that gap makes a lot of sense. But as a movie, it still has to pull details from somewhere for us to watch. So let’s start digging into those exactly the same way the movie does.

00:06:32:21 – 00:07:01:03
Dan LeFebvre
I’m going to quote the movie. This is a direct quote from the movie quote. Historians agree that the classical 15th century tale of King Arthur and his knights rose from a real hero who lived a thousand years earlier, in a period often called the Dark Ages. Recently discovered archeological evidence sheds light on his true identity and, quote, so the movie specifically says historians agree instead of some historians or even most historians.

00:07:01:06 – 00:07:14:06
Dan LeFebvre
And that to me implies that the movie is suggesting this is just accepted fact. So having the chance to talk to a historian about this movie, I have to ask, do you agree with the movie’s opening statement?

00:07:14:08 – 00:07:47:14
Dorsey Armstrong
Again, it’s like my grade that I gave the movie parts of it. Get, any parts of it get enough. So yes, absolutely. The 15th century hero that we know probably has his origins in a real person, possibly persons who lived during the fifth century. And I will say as much as medievalist, hate the phrase dark ages if there ever was a Dark Age, fifth century Britain after the Romans have withdrawn, is it?

00:07:47:15 – 00:08:23:06
Dorsey Armstrong
It really does count as a dark age. So that part is true. The idea that recent archeological discoveries have located the Arthurian legend, in the north. That’s a little less plausible. I will say that every time a fifth century or thereabouts. Archeological discoveries made, no matter where it is in the British Isles, people attempt to connect it to King Arthur or the Arthur type figure on which he was based.

00:08:23:08 – 00:08:34:18
Dorsey Armstrong
But generally speaking, as far as the legend goes, most of Arthur’s exploits and tales and stories and legends are focused much more towards the South in the southwest.

00:08:34:20 – 00:08:56:08
Dan LeFebvre
Something that stood out to me in that opening statement was the mention of recently discovered archeological evidence. Of course, we have to keep in mind that the movie came out in 2004, so was there some sort of discovery around the 2004 time frame that sort of broke open? Who the real King Arthur was that the movie’s referring to?

00:08:56:11 – 00:09:25:07
Dorsey Armstrong
I what I believe happened in the years before that. Is that up near Hadrian’s Wall, there had been some archeological discoveries, that indicated that a local leader had remained in power and had consolidated a base of power there. After the Romans had withdrawn. But you can say the same about other parts of Britain as well. There are there are several people, understandably, who tried to step into that vacuum of power.

00:09:25:09 – 00:09:36:03
Dorsey Armstrong
And we don’t know much about them, which is why almost every one of them could be considered a candidate for the historical Arthur or, as I like to call him, an Arthur type figure.

00:09:36:06 – 00:09:59:29
Dan LeFebvre
Going back to the movie, we also get an explanation for another of the famous characters from the Arthurian legend, Lancelot. And according to the movie, in 300 A.D., the Romans were expanding their empire to the east. And that’s where the Samaritans live. The Romans defeated them, but they were so impressed with the bravery of the cavalry that they let them live in exchange for each generation of Somalian boys joining the Roman military as knights for 15 years.

00:10:00:01 – 00:10:18:12
Dan LeFebvre
And then fast forward to the year 452 A.D. then we see a young Lancelot being taken from his home to join the Roman military, and he is stationed under Arthur in Britain to defend what you just mentioned, Hadrian’s Wall. The movie describes that as being a 73 mile wall that’s separating the native fighters in the north, where Roman controlled Britain to the south.

00:10:18:14 – 00:10:35:13
Dan LeFebvre
And then, of course, the movie fast forwards 15 years after that to 467 A.D. and that’s kind of the timeline for the rest of the movie. So that’s how the movie sets up everything that we see in the movie itself. How well does the movie establish the timeline prior to the events that we see in the movie?

00:10:35:15 – 00:11:01:04
Dorsey Armstrong
So that’s an interesting question, because on the one hand, yes, wherever the Romans went, they did tend to try and co-opt or bring into the empire, or I’ll just say it, exploit, people who had skills that they thought were valuable and especially useful in fighting. And it is true that at one point very early on that included the formations to the east.

00:11:01:06 – 00:11:29:11
Dorsey Armstrong
But what’s really interesting about this film is that the summation theory, as far as King Arthur goes, is a theory, put forward by Linda melker and C Scott Littleton. And they wrote a book called From Scythian to Camelot. And in that book, they posit that there was no historical Arthur figure, that what happened is the summations are conscripted into the Roman army, which which we know happened.

00:11:29:13 – 00:12:01:27
Dorsey Armstrong
They ended up in Britain so that also did happen. But then their theory is that they’re there in the second century, serving under a Roman leader named Lucius Sartorius. Cassius, and that it is a mix of summation mythology with the reputation and the idealized figure of this leader that, centuries later, would get mushed together to create Arthur and many of the legends, that are associated with him.

00:12:02:03 – 00:12:23:21
Dorsey Armstrong
So it’s interesting that the movie says this is true, whereas the book argues that what a study of the summation question proves is that there was no Arthur and that he wasn’t a real person who lived in the fifth century. And so it puts those two things together in sort of uncomfortable juxtaposition. It makes for a good film.

00:12:23:23 – 00:12:42:01
Dorsey Armstrong
Absolutely. So part is partially true that there were summations, they were incorporated into the Empire. They did make it all the way to Britain, most likely. And they did serve in the second century under someone named Lucius. Our Tory is Cassius, where we get that Arthur name and his middle name.

00:12:42:03 – 00:12:48:15
Dan LeFebvre
That sounds like a perfect example of the contrast between the A and the F letter grade that you gave the overall movie.

00:12:48:18 – 00:13:10:00
Dorsey Armstrong
So I will say this again. The further away I get from the original screen of that film, the more I like it and the more I like what it does in how it encapsulates the essence of why Arthur has become such an important figure for, 1500 years.

00:13:10:03 – 00:13:34:22
Dan LeFebvre
One of the characters from the Arthurian legend that we see in the movie is Merlin. He is not the stereotypical wizard character from a lot of the other Arthurian legend, but in this movie, Merlin is set up as being a world leader. The first interaction that he has with Arthur’s soldiers is actually a fight against them. Although there is a line of dialog they call my year, I think it was Lancelot describing Merlin as a quote unquote dark magician.

00:13:34:24 – 00:13:40:15
Dan LeFebvre
Can you fill in a little more historical context around what we know about Merlin?

00:13:40:17 – 00:14:10:14
Dorsey Armstrong
So this is a really interesting question, because the Merlin character does not get associated with the Arthurian legend, until the 12th century, when a guy called Geoffrey of Monmouth, takes what he knows about one or possibly two figures upon which he bases his Merlin and decides to put it together with the Arthurian legend. Now, we do think that there are possibly two historical figures upon which this Merlin figure is based.

00:14:10:16 – 00:14:34:25
Dorsey Armstrong
One is Merlin Caledonia’s, who was a warrior who went mad and lived in the woods, and the other, is Merlin Ambrosius, who in some of the texts, fought by Arthur’s side early on and had skills maybe not necessarily of magic, but he was a great builder, a great engineer. And so what he did kind of looked like magic.

00:14:34:25 – 00:15:09:20
Dorsey Armstrong
And it appears that Geoffrey of Monmouth, riding around 1136 or so, puts what he knows of this Welsh bard slash warrior wandering through the forest and creates a merlin character, and then moves that Merlin character into the Arthurian legend. So before the 12th century, Merlin is not a wizard who’s in any way associated, with King Arthur and his story, which bums my students out so much every time I tell them that because they really want to believe that at least these two figures are true.

00:15:09:20 – 00:15:19:11
Dorsey Armstrong
And I say, you know what? They’re both probably fifth or sixth century. So they’re they both exist at the right time, but we don’t see them together until the 12th.

00:15:19:14 – 00:15:30:19
Dan LeFebvre
I suppose when it comes to a movie called King Arthur, people are going to expect to see Merlin in a movie about King Arthur. So maybe that’s why the filmmakers decided to add a merlin character.

00:15:30:21 – 00:15:51:25
Dorsey Armstrong
What I would say is that anyone who’s trying to make an historical King Arthur movie is going to run into the huge problem of audience expectations. If you hear Arthur, you’re going to expect that there better be a merlin, there better be a Lancelot. And as far as we know, Lancelot seems to appear fully formed in the 12th century.

00:15:51:27 – 00:16:18:04
Dorsey Armstrong
He’s not there in the original fifth century. If you’re going to have an historical Arthur film set in the fifth century, you can have an Arthur, you can have a Guinevere, you can have a bit of ear, a K, and an early version of Sir Gawain. Walk me. But that’s it. You can’t have a Lancelot. You can’t have a Bors.

00:16:18:04 – 00:16:39:11
Dorsey Armstrong
You can’t have a Galahad. You can’t have Merlin. So you can imagine that if you’re trying to tell the historical story of Arthur in the fifth century and people come to see this film, if there’s not a Lancelot, I think people are going to be very upset. So I sympathize with all movie makers who are trying to wrestle with that question, because it’s a hard one.

00:16:39:13 – 00:16:56:29
Dorsey Armstrong
Because for hundreds of years now, we have come to associate figures like Merlin and Lancelot with King Arthur. To such an extent that they’re really inextricable from each other right now. And you would disappoint your audience if you didn’t have them in the movie.

00:16:57:01 – 00:17:11:03
Dan LeFebvre
One of the concepts I gathered as I watched the movie was that Merlin’s people, the worlds, are a nomadic people who are fighting against the Roman occupation of Britain. Can you share a little more historical context around the words from the movie?

00:17:11:05 – 00:17:44:06
Dorsey Armstrong
So the worlds are based on, a real people, called the pick’s Picts, and their name comes from Picardy, which means painted because they did paint themselves blue before they went into battle. And the dye that they used is called woad. And so I think that’s where the movie gets that word. The reason that Hadrian’s Wall is built in the first place is because there are some really scary blue people up beyond it, and the Romans have said, no, thank you.

00:17:44:08 – 00:18:08:18
Dorsey Armstrong
South of here is good. We’re not going to mess with that up there at all. And so another way that the movie stumbles is that if they’re so scary that there’s a wall keeping them out of the South, why is there a Roman senator living in his lovely summer estate north of the wall, in the most dangerous territory in Britain at the time?

00:18:08:21 – 00:18:11:18
Dan LeFebvre
That’s a really good point. I don’t think they really even talk about that in the movie.

00:18:11:22 – 00:18:14:06
Dorsey Armstrong
What is he doing up there?

00:18:14:08 – 00:18:34:08
Dan LeFebvre
Just a summer home, right? Apparently heading back to the movie’s version of events, let’s shift focus from some of the legendary characters that we talked about so far. Instead, focus on an object that the movie shows from the Arthurian legend the Round Table, according to the way the movie shows the Round Table. Of course, we talked about Lancelot.

00:18:34:08 – 00:18:52:16
Dan LeFebvre
You mentioned Gwyn and Galahad and Tristan and all of these other knights from the legends. And there’s this scene in the movie where Bishop Germanus makes a big deal about needing to sit at the head of the table, to which the Knights reply with something like, of course you can sit wherever you want. And then he enters the room and there’s a round table there.

00:18:52:16 – 00:19:00:15
Dan LeFebvre
There is no head of the table, which obviously doesn’t make him happy. Do we know if the round table that we see in the movie was an actual thing?

00:19:00:18 – 00:19:23:26
Dorsey Armstrong
So it is when the legend starts to pick up in the 12th century. But again, as you may have noticed, there’s a theme here. A lot of what we think of as the foundational elements show up in the 12th century. Now, that does not mean that they weren’t present, perhaps in some form in earlier texts or stories that have been lost.

00:19:23:29 – 00:19:49:17
Dorsey Armstrong
It is just that we only have evidence for their existence in the 12th century. What’s interesting is, that this idea comes from somewhere, and that’s pretty early in the legend, this idea that Arthur, it’s a 12th century writer named Wass who says Arthur sat at a table. He was first among equals, but it was a round table, so no one was above anyone else.

00:19:49:19 – 00:20:15:02
Dorsey Armstrong
And that’s a remarkable idea for the 12th century. So I would like to imagine, that there might be some basis, or it might be an ancient memory of when this Arthur type figure gathered with his warband, because that’s what they would have been. They weren’t knights in the fifth century. They would have been his, his warband that they gathered in, a circle to discuss.

00:20:15:02 – 00:20:29:10
Dorsey Armstrong
And so it really it could have an origin there that they’re gathered around a fire or a half. But as far as a physical table, we don’t have any evidence of that. For sure before the 12th century.

00:20:29:12 – 00:20:46:21
Dan LeFebvre
That makes a lot of sense. I mean, thinking of whether or not a physical object would have survived that long. It’s it’s hard to know. But other than the physical object, there’s just a concept of it. I think we’re all familiar with, you know, the concept of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. We’re familiar with that in the legend and in this movie.

00:20:46:21 – 00:21:02:15
Dan LeFebvre
The impression that I got for how it presents that scene with the Bishop is basically kind of saying that Arthur sees everyone as equals. Nobody is above anyone else. Do we know if the historical Arthur had that concept of equality?

00:21:02:18 – 00:21:42:02
Dorsey Armstrong
So in the fifth century? That’s a really hard question to answer. If we’re talking about sub Roman Britain and the historical Arthur figure, would have been, as far as we can tell, if he existed. I think someone who was the basis for this figure, who had a name similar to Arthur, did exist. He might not have been all on board with the idea of equality, but whoever this person was based on archeological evidence that shows a Celtic warband led by a leader in the right time and the right place for the historical Arthur, this person must have been an amazing warrior.

00:21:42:04 – 00:22:09:06
Dorsey Armstrong
He must have been charismatic, and he must have just been a really good guy. Given how clear it is that in the wake of Rome pulling out, he was able to rally to his side. Something like a community of over 700 people. It’s estimated, when the average warband at that time. And so say the historians who know such things would have been more like 35 people.

00:22:09:09 – 00:22:35:19
Dorsey Armstrong
So he must have been a great leader, a great warrior, a good ruler, a just person. And I imagine that if you’re going to achieve that measure of success and maintain that level of leadership when the rest of the world is in chaos, that making people feel as if they are valued, even if it’s not actually that they’re being treated as equal with you, would have been important.

00:22:35:21 – 00:22:41:18
Dorsey Armstrong
So I think that there’s a little bit of truth hiding in there.

00:22:41:21 – 00:23:02:00
Dan LeFebvre
Speaking of the bishop, that makes me wonder about another plot point that we see in the movie regarding the Knights and their religion. The movie seems to say that the Knights are following the faith of their forefathers. In other words, they are pagans and not Christians as the Romans are. But they’re still fighting for Rome and the Roman Church, historically speaking.

00:23:02:03 – 00:23:07:17
Dan LeFebvre
Was there a tie between Arthur and the Roman Church like we see in the movie?

00:23:07:19 – 00:23:37:02
Dorsey Armstrong
So probably, most certainly since the Romans had firmly conquered most of what we think of as Britain or England today by the middle of the first century. And they were in power there until 410. So as the Empire went, so went all of the outposts within the Empire. So when the Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity, all Roman citizens would have been expected to do the same.

00:23:37:05 – 00:24:08:04
Dorsey Armstrong
And so by the time we get to Arthur’s lifetime, Rome had been Christianized for well over a century. And so we think that that’s the case, he certainly would have been a Christian as far as the tolerance for other faiths. It’s doubtful it is. It is doubtful, that as a Christian leader, anyone would have been tolerant of what they believed to be blasphemy or anathema.

00:24:08:04 – 00:24:32:28
Dorsey Armstrong
But at the same time, we have to remember that this is the early days of Christianity. So many of its rules, its regulations, its orthodoxy, they don’t exist. Yet. We see a great example of this. What I really liked was the use of, Pelagius. And Pelagius was, for a time he was he was a British monk in the sixth century.

00:24:32:28 – 00:24:59:11
Dorsey Armstrong
So he’s a little later than than Arthur would have been. And he was ousted, from the ranks of the church and declared a heretic because he believed and he preached, what came to be called the Palladian heresy, which was essentially do good works, and you’ll get to go to heaven on the face of it, that seems to make sense.

00:24:59:13 – 00:25:21:17
Dorsey Armstrong
But ultimately, when the church had to decide, they declared this a heresy because in the end, humans cannot earn their way into heaven by doing good. The final decision rests with God. Only God gets to decide who gets in and who doesn’t. So it doesn’t matter what you’ve done yourself during your lifetime, it’s God who makes the final call.

00:25:21:23 – 00:25:49:22
Dorsey Armstrong
But anything that’s a heresy we have to remember only gets called the heresy because a lot of people are believing in it and following it. So for quite some time, people would have believed in the message of Pelagius and, and striven to adhere to it and, and thought, I will do good works to get into heaven. And it’s only when the church decides, no, we can’t have this, this, this is contrary to our doctrine that he becomes a heretic.

00:25:49:22 – 00:26:07:09
Dorsey Armstrong
And so the idea that Arthur is a Palladian Christian is a great idea. I think that makes total sense. And that he is so upset when he discovers that Pelagius had been executed when he returned to Rome. Also makes sense.

00:26:07:12 – 00:26:17:18
Dan LeFebvre
Since you mentioned Pelagius near the end of the movie, I seem to recall that we find out Bishop Germanus is the one who had Plagueis executed. Is there truth to that, then?

00:26:17:21 – 00:26:42:12
Dorsey Armstrong
Yes. Palladio was declared a heretic. Any who believed in the pillage and heresy were, declared heretics. He might be subject to execution or torture and all kinds of nasty ways. And we know that this is a problem, for centuries afterward, because it’s such a popular idea that even in the 14th century, we have the church still trying to root out the Palladian heresy, in all kinds of places.

00:26:42:15 – 00:26:50:27
Dorsey Armstrong
Because who wouldn’t want to believe that if one does good, one gets rewarded. So, it’s an ongoing problem.

00:26:51:00 – 00:27:11:08
Dan LeFebvre
Maybe you already answered this question earlier, but we’re at the point in the movie’s timeline where it makes a big deal out of this final order from Rome to Arthur and his knights. And it’s the final order, because the movie’s concept is they will be done with their service to Rome after this mission. And the mission is for them to go north of Hadrian’s Wall to rescue a Roman named Marius.

00:27:11:11 – 00:27:30:01
Dan LeFebvre
As the movie explains it, one of the reasons that this mission is a big deal beyond just rescuing a Roman citizen is that Marius, his son Leto, is supposedly the Pope’s favorite godson. And then to top it off, there’s a timeline to it because there’s an approaching Saxon army, so Arthur and his knights have to rescue Marius, elected and his household before it’s too late.

00:27:30:03 – 00:27:36:13
Dan LeFebvre
Is there any truth to the scenario set up by the movie for Arthur’s final order?

00:27:36:16 – 00:27:43:00
Dorsey Armstrong
This is where I the the history goes off the rails.

00:27:43:02 – 00:27:46:28
Dan LeFebvre
This is the part of the historical let a great house.

00:27:47:00 – 00:28:10:15
Dorsey Armstrong
Yeah, yeah, the f. So first of all, there are no Romans in their luxurious villas north of Hadrian’s Wall. Also, when the Saxons invade, they are not invading up there. They’re invading much further south, in what’s England? So they wouldn’t have been up there to begin with. And so the movie is, is moving people around and creating a conflict.

00:28:10:17 – 00:28:32:00
Dorsey Armstrong
So there’s a family in distress. They just create a scenario which causes them to be in distress, which is the most implausible scenario, that I can think of. And then we have to add an extra, enemy in the form of the Saxons. Who? These were the people that the historical Arthur figure did rally against.

00:28:32:00 – 00:28:56:15
Dorsey Armstrong
Did fight against. Seems to have stopped and pushed back. And their encroachment across southern Britain from the east to the west. But they’re not up north. Threatening romance that that’s not happening at all. So, yes, Arthur versus the Saxons, but the geographic location is absolutely incorrect.

00:28:56:17 – 00:28:59:28
Dan LeFebvre
So not at all the way the movie portrays it.

00:29:00:00 – 00:29:02:15
Dorsey Armstrong
Right. Sorry.

00:29:02:18 – 00:29:21:22
Dan LeFebvre
There’s another element of Arthur’s mission I wanted to touch on, because in the movie, when Arthur finally gets to Marius is a state, we can see that Marius is using his position as a Roman to subjugate the people of the town. He’s telling you he’s a spokesman for God and it’s a sin to defy him. And then Arthur comes in and he tells the people that they are all free from their first breath.

00:29:21:24 – 00:29:43:15
Dan LeFebvre
And he goes on to try to rescue as many of the townspeople as he can, not just Marius, his family. That was the core of his mission. So in my mind, as I was watching this, it kind of goes back to the movie’s portrayal of the round table concept that we talked about earlier. Work. Arthur seems to favor equality because Arthur gets there and he kind of puts his money where his mouth is, so to speak.

00:29:43:15 – 00:29:58:07
Dan LeFebvre
It’s a stark contrast to the way that the Roman Marius is acting. So would it be fair to assume that Arthur was much more honorable as a person than most others were in that time period of history?

00:29:58:09 – 00:30:26:01
Dorsey Armstrong
I mean, I think yes, he as I said before, given the extent of what we think was his following in the number of people who flocked to his side and the length of time, he was able to rule and restore peace for a couple generations. He must have been a very just person at the same time, another area in which this film gets an F is this idea of all men are born free.

00:30:26:03 – 00:31:07:14
Dorsey Armstrong
No, in the Middle Ages, if you went back in time to the Middle Ages and you asked anybody, would you like to be free, or would you like to be beholden to this Lord, or and subject to him? The first question that anyone would ask would probably be how much land comes with either of those options? And generally speaking, everyone would usually have chosen to be not free because this society depended upon a hierarchy in which lords ruled over people.

00:31:07:14 – 00:31:34:21
Dorsey Armstrong
The people served their lords, and in return for that, they got the Lords protection. They were part of a social network. There was a safety net. So, for example, in times of famine, it would be expected that the Lord would find a way to help his people, to keep them from starving in times of warfare, in exchange for working his land, the Lord would take everyone he could into his fortress or stronghold or castle to protect them.

00:31:34:24 – 00:32:02:10
Dorsey Armstrong
If you are free and you are cut loose from this structure, who’s going to help you? You are alone in the world. How do you farm your land? Because much of farming was cooperative back then. So the villagers would come together to plants, to harvest. And so being all on your own. Well, what’s not impossible would not have been considered a desirable situation to be in at all.

00:32:02:12 – 00:32:35:22
Dorsey Armstrong
In fact, we have accounts, from some parts of the Middle Ages in which during a time of famine, people approached a particular lord and made themselves his slaves, on purpose, because in exchange, they would get fed. They would be clothed, they would be housed. And the seemed to have been a temporary arrangement, but they were happy to to give, you know, their lives up into the service of the Lord and be obedient to him as long as it meant protection for them and their family.

00:32:35:24 – 00:33:00:08
Dorsey Armstrong
So the idea that I am a free man, is absolutely incorrect. As far as the Middle Ages would go. But every age, I like to say makes an Arthur that that age needs. So in 2004, that’s that’s what we wanted to hear, that it’s all about freedom. It’s all about individual freedom. And that’s just it’s not the case.

00:33:00:08 – 00:33:02:02
Dorsey Armstrong
It’s historically inaccurate.

00:33:02:04 – 00:33:15:27
Dan LeFebvre
Speaking of freedom, that’s almost like what I mentioned a moment ago. With this being Arthur’s final mission, it’s his final mission because they were going to be given their own freedom afterward. But it sounds like maybe that wasn’t the case.

00:33:15:29 – 00:33:39:08
Dorsey Armstrong
That that would not have been something they wanted. They would not have wanted. First of all, no one gets papers of safe conduct to go through the Roman Empire in the fifth century. That’s not a thing. There are not checkpoints everywhere. There aren’t even enough people who can read to, you know, to tell you what this thing says that you’re carrying, that says you have the right to move throughout the Roman Empire.

00:33:39:10 – 00:34:02:24
Dorsey Armstrong
And so while they may have if we’re going with the summation theory, they may have wanted to go back to their homeland. They would not have wanted to be cut loose, from the Roman bureaucracy. In fact, the sack of Rome, which started around 410, and then the Empire sort of staggered to its final collapse around 476.

00:34:02:27 – 00:34:27:07
Dorsey Armstrong
The people who attacked Rome were, first of all, attacking, not because they wanted to conquer Rome, but because they wanted to get in. They said, yeah, give us some of that. So many of these people, these were, what we think of as the Germanic peoples that lived north of Rome. Many of them had already been fighting for the Romans as mercenaries.

00:34:27:09 – 00:34:55:25
Dorsey Armstrong
And they saw all the benefits that Roman citizens got. And they said, well, we don’t want to just be your hired hands. We would we would like roads and baths and, you know, reliable food and a functioning government. And so I doubt that many people would have wanted to move away from Rome or felt like Rome was somehow oppressive.

00:34:55:27 – 00:35:20:13
Dorsey Armstrong
And that’s one reason why the Arthur type figure, from what we know from many of the texts, is that apparently his parents had been Romans of some rank in Britain. And then after the Empire collapsed and the legions are withdrawn and called back to Rome, it is someone who has claims to Rome who can rise up and rally the people.

00:35:20:13 – 00:35:27:11
Dorsey Armstrong
And that’s what they were looking for, some sort of vestige of what Rome had done for that.

00:35:27:13 – 00:35:48:26
Dan LeFebvre
So I guess maybe the idea of Marius being the one that is oppressive to his people. I mean, I’m sure there were some leaders that were oppressive like that, but it seems like, historically speaking, that dynamic would have been very different because it’s beneficial to the Lords to have their people doing well.

00:35:48:28 – 00:36:15:11
Dorsey Armstrong
You are exactly correct. So I have no doubt that there, and history shows us that there were some terrible lords and that especially in the 14th century, much later, when there’s, a population crisis and, there’s no more land to be worked. And the Lords are trying, in this case, trying to oppress the people, to keep them on their land, to keep them beholden to them.

00:36:15:13 – 00:36:42:07
Dorsey Armstrong
We have the Peasants Revolt in England in 1381. And part of this is because after the black Death, the first wave of the Black Death swept through and killed up to half of the European population. What had been the land crunch suddenly became, a land free for all. And so there was plenty of land for the taking, so people didn’t need to remain on their particular plot of land.

00:36:42:07 – 00:37:00:18
Dorsey Armstrong
They weren’t so bounded by tradition, and history, because the world had changed overnight, practically. But up until that point, yes. For, for most, it would be considered a mutually, a mutually beneficial situation.

00:37:00:20 – 00:37:20:25
Dan LeFebvre
If we go back to the movie, there’s another character from the Arthurian legend that shows up at the village where Marius is at. I’m speaking, of course, about Guinevere. When she’s first shown in the movie, she’s actually a prisoner who must be sacrificed along with any of the, quote unquote, sinners. Again, going back to Marius, basically saying that anyone who defies him is defying God.

00:37:20:28 – 00:37:36:13
Dan LeFebvre
So in the movie, there’s actually two prisoners that Arthur and his men save. One is a little boy, and then Guinevere, who in the movie is a world woman. Is there any historical truth to the way that we see Arthur and Guinevere meeting in the movie?

00:37:36:16 – 00:38:05:27
Dorsey Armstrong
And a lot of that is really, really, lost in the mists of time. But there have been some suggestions that certainly the Arthur Gwenn of Year marriage, would have been, at that point, politically motivated, even if there, there was affection at the same time. And there seems to be, a situation that suggests that he married more than one woman named Guinevere.

00:38:06:00 – 00:38:10:27
Dorsey Armstrong
That was a very popular name. It’s the early version of Jennifer.

00:38:11:00 – 00:38:12:26
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Okay.

00:38:12:28 – 00:38:42:12
Dorsey Armstrong
So, so. And Gwen avere, in some instances, appears to possibly have come from north of where Arthur was. So closer to Scotland, probably northern Wales. She has a Welsh name. But as far as her being a pagan who lives north of the wall and is a Pict probably not.

00:38:42:14 – 00:39:02:18
Dan LeFebvre
Well, with that in mind, I’m just going to guess that the movie’s connection tying Guinevere to Arthur and Merlin is not correct. Remember, the movie shows Merlin as a world leader, so then Arthur and Guinevere start to kind of fall for each other. And then the movie strong suggests that that is why Arthur starts to ally with Merlin’s people instead of Rome.

00:39:02:24 – 00:39:17:27
Dan LeFebvre
After all, he’s about to be freed by Rome anyway, so might as well ally with Guinevere as people. At least that’s how the movie tells the story. But is there any connection between Guinevere, Arthur, and Merlin in the historical record?

00:39:18:00 – 00:39:41:06
Dorsey Armstrong
No, there is not. But I think we can safely say that, whomever the Arthur type figure married, that would have been a marriage that brought together, peoples, united them, and created, you know, a larger, network of support against the invading Saxons. So I think it would be safe to assume that.

00:39:41:08 – 00:40:07:07
Dan LeFebvre
Well, you mentioned the Saxons. And if we go back to the movie’s version of events, the first confrontation that we see with Arthur and his knights in the advancing Saxon army takes place on an ice covered light. Arthur and his knights decide they’re tired of running, so they’re going to stay behind and hold off the Saxons while all the civilians that they’re rescuing remember they’re going beyond just Marius and his family trying to rescue as many of the townspeople as they could.

00:40:07:09 – 00:40:28:04
Dan LeFebvre
So all these people, they’re going to try to give them a head start and hold off the advancing Saxon army. I call it a head start because the movie says that it’s seven knights against like 200. Well, I guess there’s eight of them because Guinevere joins the fight. But you have eight people against 200 Saxons in this battle, so they don’t really expect to win.

00:40:28:06 – 00:40:42:10
Dan LeFebvre
Except it’s a movie, so they find a way. But the way that this happened in the movie is by breaking the ice. So the Saxons fall into the icy waters. Is there any sort of historical truth to this battle on the like that we see in the movie?

00:40:42:12 – 00:41:05:20
Dorsey Armstrong
No. And in fact, that fight scene owes a lot to an earlier medieval film called Alexander Nevsky, which had a very similar scene. And I actually wasn’t aware of that film until after I saw the King Arthur film. And I was commenting to someone about how much I enjoyed that fight scene and how clever it was.

00:41:05:20 – 00:41:29:16
Dorsey Armstrong
And, people who know medieval film better than I do said, oh, no, that that’s lifted straight from Alexander Nevsky. That fight scene. And so then I went and checked and. Yes, indeed, it’s still a great scene. But no, there’s no historical basis for that, except for, in the sense that another movie did it before this one.

00:41:29:19 – 00:41:49:00
Dan LeFebvre
Earlier in our chat, we were talking about the kind of person that Arthur was, and we see this again in action during the lake battle, there’s a scene where Arthur is willing to sacrifice himself for one of his injured men. Arthur rushes out and breaks the ice under the Saxons, and then, as he’s exposed to enemy fire, he pulls the injured knight away from the icy waters.

00:41:49:02 – 00:41:54:24
Dan LeFebvre
Do we know if he would have sacrificed himself for his men like we see happening in the movie?

00:41:54:27 – 00:42:04:00
Dorsey Armstrong
We can only surmise. But again, my guess would be anyone who was able to,

00:42:04:03 – 00:42:29:24
Dorsey Armstrong
Arouse so much loyalty, from his people. Must have been someone who made clear that he was willing to fight and die alongside his men. And that is another thing the movie does get right is that in the Middle Ages, kings and leaders are not like modern day generals who are back looking at maps and plotting strategy.

00:42:29:27 – 00:42:36:08
Dorsey Armstrong
You’re right, they’re at the front lines with your men. Otherwise they wouldn’t have considered you, a leader worth following.

00:42:36:10 – 00:43:03:12
Dan LeFebvre
At the very end of the movie, Arthur is freed from his commitment to Rome. Guinevere convinces Arthur that her people are his people, so Arthur decides to stay and fight the main force of Saxons. After initially leaving with the Romans and the rest of the knights come back and decide to stay and fight with Arthur. So that’s how we end up having this big battle at the end between Arthur’s knights alongside Guinevere and Merlin’s woad army against the full Saxon army.

00:43:03:14 – 00:43:18:13
Dan LeFebvre
What’s interesting about this battle is that the movie actually mentioned it by name. It’s called the Battle of Baden Hill, and since it mentions it by name, I have to ask, was that a real battle and how well did the movie do showing what happened?

00:43:18:16 – 00:43:48:00
Dorsey Armstrong
The Battle of Baden Hill comes from a ninth century chronicle in. And we do believe it was a real fight. But at the same time, it wouldn’t have been at Hadrian’s Wall. People have been trying to find Baden for a while. And we think it’s in the south of, of Britain, somewhere in the south. And this supposedly was one of the key battles in which Arthur, the leader, pushed the Saxons back.

00:43:48:02 – 00:44:14:12
Dorsey Armstrong
But also the same text tells us that there were 12 battles. And he’s victorious at this one. In the final battle, which is at Hamlin. And no one can find Camelot. Exactly. There have been lots of theories, people trying to pinpoint it. That is where he is finally killed and defeated at the end. But, as far as the Arthurian legend goes, the Battle of Mount Baden.

00:44:14:12 – 00:44:34:04
Dorsey Armstrong
Yes, was attested very, very early on in the chronicles. Now, where it was exactly not so clear, but but it does show up. So naming that final battle after the battle in the Chronicles makes sense.

00:44:34:06 – 00:44:49:14
Dan LeFebvre
If we’re to believe the movie’s version of this battle, we see Arthur’s men die. Namely, Tristan and Lancelot are the main characters who die in that battle in the movie. And then that leaves Arthur with just four knights along with the World Army. Do we know what happened with his men?

00:44:49:16 – 00:45:16:17
Dorsey Armstrong
No. I mean, we know almost nothing about him from contemporary documents. That would be, you know, from the fifth century or, you know, even a century or two later. That’s as close as we can get. So, we can assume, though, that when Arthur passes away, certainly along the way, some of his men would have also been killed.

00:45:16:19 – 00:45:39:17
Dorsey Armstrong
But again, remember, they’re not knights. They’re warriors. He wouldn’t even have been called king. Probably. And tell maybe the end of his reign. If then. But earlier on, he would have been called either by a Roman title, like a Duke’s Balaram, a war leader. Or you might have been called, comas count. And not early on.

00:45:39:17 – 00:45:52:13
Dorsey Armstrong
Would he have been called King Arthur. And so one thing the movie does get right is that if he’s going to be called King, it wouldn’t happen until very, very late in his life if it ever happened at all.

00:45:52:15 – 00:46:19:17
Dan LeFebvre
That’s a great catch on my using the term knights. I’m so used to the legend of King Arthur and his knights, I just refer to them as his knights, even if they’re not actually that. But switching gears a little bit to another piece of the Arthurian legend from the movie, it’s about this point in the timeline that we see the legendary sword in the Stone, and in the movie, it’s shown in a flashback to Arthur’s childhood, when his mom is killed by Merlin’s people attacking their village, which is initially why the movie explains why Arthur didn’t like the world.

00:46:19:24 – 00:46:38:00
Dan LeFebvre
But in the flashback, Arthur pulls the sword from the stone so he can go and kill Merlin to have revenge for his mother’s death. And then the movie. Merlin says that it was Arthur’s love for his mother that allowed Arthur to pull the sword from the stone. In other words, it was not the hatred for Merlin, but it was love.

00:46:38:03 – 00:46:42:28
Dan LeFebvre
How well do you think the movie does telling the story of the sword in the Stone?

00:46:43:00 – 00:47:06:08
Dorsey Armstrong
So if we if we go to the 15th century and Sir Thomas Malory, which is my main area of study, what we learn then, and that’s sort of where the, the stamp is put on this part of the legend is that there is a sword in the stone, and it appears by magic, and Merlin helps to set it up and the stones in an anvil that says, who?

00:47:06:09 – 00:47:39:00
Dorsey Armstrong
Whosoever shall pull up the sword from the stone is right, wise, born king of all England. But that’s not Excalibur. Excalibur is a sword of Arthur’s very, very early on as well, especially in early Welsh legends. But it comes from the lady of the lake, so it comes out of the water. So she emerges from the water with the sword for him, and he is considered worthy of the sword, because she deems it so.

00:47:39:07 – 00:48:06:24
Dorsey Armstrong
So there are two swords, and later on they get conflated into one that Excalibur is the sword in the stone, but the idea of a sword being pulled out of a stone. I’ve seen a documentary on Arthur. I’ve seen several, actually historical Arthur. And one theory is that in early metalworking, you would use a stone mold and you would pour the metal into it to make, a sword.

00:48:07:01 – 00:48:35:25
Dorsey Armstrong
And that perhaps the legend comes from it being stuck in the stone mold and someone of great strength pulling it out, intact. So that could be the origin of the legend. But the magical sword Excalibur, it’s called Caliban. Or in Welsh or Caleb Burness, which means, cut steel. And, that shows up early on. There’s no mention of it being pulled out of a stone.

00:48:35:25 – 00:49:06:21
Dorsey Armstrong
If anything, it is gifted to Arthur by this mysterious faerie woman who has otherworldly power. And so that is how Arthur is sort of threading this needle between the real and the supernatural. And he has this sort of ordination, that he is meant to rule because he’s favored by people in the, in the fairy world. And he’s also, lauded and praised and held up to be a leader by real human beings.

00:49:06:24 – 00:49:13:04
Dan LeFebvre
So it sounds like, once again, the movie is mixing together a lot of different things to tell this story.

00:49:13:06 – 00:49:36:23
Dorsey Armstrong
Well, what I would say is that if you were doing an Arthur movie, you better have a sword in the stone or the audience is terrible. And so I thought that making it the marker on the grave, made a lot of sense that he is still withdrawing it from, you know, something that could be considered partially stone from the earth.

00:49:36:26 – 00:49:46:27
Dorsey Armstrong
And so that made that made a lot of sense to me to try and figure out how to represent this motif, the theme that is so important in the Arthurian legend.

00:49:46:29 – 00:50:08:15
Dan LeFebvre
At the very end of the movie, there’s a wedding ceremony that we see. Merlin is officiating the marriage of Arthur and Guinevere, uniting the people, and everyone is happy. It’s kind of a happily ever after. And in the movie, that’s when he is proclaimed to be King Arthur. Is there any truth to this single marriage ceremony proclaiming the leader?

00:50:08:18 – 00:50:13:23
Dorsey Armstrong
No. That is. And in fact, that wasn’t even supposed to be the original end of the movie.

00:50:13:26 – 00:50:15:21
Dan LeFebvre
Oh really? How was it supposed to end?

00:50:15:24 – 00:50:46:19
Dorsey Armstrong
That is an alternate ending. Originally, the movie ended with the death of his dies, and it ended on a much more down note. Which I think would be much more true to the legend. And I guess in test screenings the audience said, well, this is not how we want this to end. And so, they did what movie makers have done in order to bump up the happy factor for their audience and close with a wedding.

00:50:46:19 – 00:51:00:18
Dorsey Armstrong
And better yet, let’s have it out a fake Stonehenge, right? So all of that, all of that is, is made up. I understand why it’s there, but it is a it’s a bit over the top.

00:51:00:20 – 00:51:21:16
Dan LeFebvre
It sounds like kind of what we were talking about throughout our chat today, how a King Arthur movie has to have Merlin in it and has to have the sword in the stone. It has to have the round Table. Well, it’s King Arthur and he hasn’t been a king throughout the whole movie. So the movie audiences expect there to be an explanation why it’s King Arthur instead of just Arthur.

00:51:21:18 – 00:51:45:12
Dorsey Armstrong
And I don’t think you have any choice if you’re going to make a successful Arthurian movie, unless you choose to just go completely dark and historical, and it wouldn’t be a happy movie, I don’t think, and I don’t know that anyone would want to go see it. It’d be more like an art film, rather than any sort of popular blockbuster film.

00:51:45:15 – 00:52:06:22
Dan LeFebvre
Speaking of things that audiences expect, I’ll do a variation of what the movie did for my own audience, because even though we talked about the 2004 movie today, there’s been so many stories about King Arthur throughout history in all sorts of mediums, movies and TV, of course, but obviously plenty of books and writings long before movies and TV even existed.

00:52:06:25 – 00:52:17:23
Dan LeFebvre
What’s something that most people might think they know about the theory and legend, but when they learn the true story, it’ll surprise him.

00:52:17:25 – 00:52:40:11
Dorsey Armstrong
Well, I can tell you, what I tell my students every time I teach Arthurian literature. And what’s fascinating is I ask them to tell me on the first day of class, and many of them have not encountered the Arthurian legend in any sort of systematic way. So they haven’t read the early texts. They’d maybe have seen a film or read a story.

00:52:40:18 – 00:53:01:00
Dorsey Armstrong
And so I asked them to tell me everything they know about the legend. And I write it all up on the board. And so they’re telling me, Merlin, and he’s married to Gwen Vivier, and Guinevere commits adultery with Lancelot, and Arthur has knights, and they sit at a round table and they go on quests, including for the Holy Grail.

00:53:01:03 – 00:53:26:27
Dorsey Armstrong
And he lives in a big stone castle called Camelot. And then I have to tell them it’s the fifth century and Rome has left. So unless they’re occupying Roman structures, no big stone castles that smoky little huts. Although it’s possible that, you know, Roman buildings that were left behind could have been reused, reoccupied. That’s possible. We’re not sure where Camelot was.

00:53:27:00 – 00:53:49:24
Dorsey Armstrong
As I’ve said earlier, there’s no Merlin. There is a a vere, but there’s also no Lancelot. The idea of the Round table comes much later. The sword in the stone comes much later. Although he does have a sword with a name like Excalibur from very early on. And the Holy Grail shows up in the 12th and 13th centuries.

00:53:49:26 – 00:54:09:27
Dorsey Armstrong
And that’s another, it’s actually a French writer who says this is a great idea. Arthur’s knights need to go on a quest. What’s the best thing, like a quest for the Holy Grail? And so that wasn’t part of the original legend either. And so I usually have a student yell from the back of the room. Stop it!

00:54:09:27 – 00:54:39:17
Dorsey Armstrong
You’re ruining it. But then by the end of the semester, I think that they have learned to have a deeper appreciation for how and why the legend accreted, to it. All of these elements. Because I say the Arthurian legend is like a magnet. And as time goes by, is there a hero over here who’s fantastic? For example, sir Tristan Tristan had a long history as, a legendary figure all his own.

00:54:39:19 – 00:55:00:19
Dorsey Armstrong
But at some point late in the Middle Ages, someone said, you know what would be great? Let’s make him a knight of the Round Table. And then all of his adventures are connected to Arthur. And so he’s brought in. Same with the Holy Grail. It becomes a quest for the Knights. So you’re three legends like a giant magnet that attracts to it all the cool stuff.

00:55:00:21 – 00:55:20:12
Dan LeFebvre
And it makes some great stories along the way. Well, thank you so much for coming on to chat about King Arthur. I’m such a huge fan of your work. It’s an honor to get to talk to you. One of my favorites is King Arthur History and Legend. I picked that up from one of the audiobook services, so I’ll be sure to include a link to that one in particular in the show notes for my audience to learn even more about the true story.

00:55:20:14 – 00:55:26:15
Dan LeFebvre
But before I let you go, can you share a bit more about that one, as well as where they can find more of your work?

00:55:26:18 – 00:55:53:00
Dorsey Armstrong
So, the King Arthur, history or legend is a series of lectures I did for the Teaching Company, which is now part of Wondrium. And you can get those lectures. There’s 24 lectures. It’s about the evolution of the Arthurian legend from its origins to the modern period. It’s available on DVD. You can also download it online or you can purchase the book that goes along with the lectures.

00:55:53:00 – 00:56:24:12
Dorsey Armstrong
It gives some detail and bibliography. So that’s the easiest way to access that. My other books tend to be, more for a scholarly academic audience. They have lots of footnotes, if you like footnotes. Great. But one thing that I have done is I translated Sir Thomas Malory’s Morte d’Arthur into modern English, because every time I taught that text, I was not happy with the translations that were available to me, that I was sharing with my students.

00:56:24:12 – 00:56:54:02
Dorsey Armstrong
And I finally decided, well, I’ll just do my own. And it’s Malory’s text more than any other at the end of the 15th century, that gives us the shape of the legend that sort of codifies it, puts the template down for everything that comes after. And so that’s now available in a modern English translation. And, my goal was to make it as accessible as possible so that people could enjoy the, this huge book.

00:56:54:04 – 00:57:19:03
Dorsey Armstrong
It’s a massive work that took years for Malory to write, and in fact, it took me longer to translate it, I realized, than it took him to write it, which is a moment that when I hit that point, I realized, oh, well, I’m a little bummed out right now, but, I’m really proud of it. And I think that it conveys, the sense of the time and the culture while still maintaining, accessible language that anyone can read.

00:57:19:06 – 00:57:21:22
Dan LeFebvre
Thank you again so much for your time.

00:57:21:25 – 00:57:28:18
Dorsey Armstrong
Is my pleasure. I’m always happy to talk about King Arthur. Invite me back any time. Next time a movie comes out, invite me back.

00:57:28:20 – 00:57:33:09
Dan LeFebvre
We’ll have to make that happen.

00:57:33:11 – 00:57:43:22
Dorsey Armstrong
It was a pleasure chatting with you.

00:57:43:24 – 00:58:01:24
Dan LeFebvre
This episode of based On a True Story was produced by me, Dan Lapham. If you want to learn more about the legends of King Arthur and the true story behind them, I cannot recommend Doctor Armstrong’s work enough. I have links to that in the show notes so you can check it out. And actually, that leads me right into my own history that I was talking about at the beginning of this episode.

00:58:01:24 – 00:58:27:12
Dan LeFebvre
So the interview that you just heard with Doctor Armstrong was originally published in January of 2023 on based on a true story, and it’s obviously been remastered. I actually rerecorded my entire site to update both the audio and video quality for today’s version, but the origin of how this episode came to be started long before that. When I was in middle school, my mom used to take my siblings and me to the local library to help with researching for our homework.

00:58:27:14 – 00:58:44:24
Dan LeFebvre
One day we were at the library. I can’t remember the specific homework assignment that I had, but I remember going through my usual routine. I would look up the book and at the computer, well, whatever the topic was that I needed, and then I would write down the Dewey Decimal number so I could find the book in the aisle that it’s in.

00:58:44:26 – 00:59:02:19
Dan LeFebvre
Well, this particular day, as I was looking for the number, I happened to see a book about Camelot and the legends of King Arthur. You know the old adage, don’t judge a book by its cover, but obviously something about this book stood out to me. So I grabbed it. And then I continued to find the book that I actually needed for my homework.

00:59:02:21 – 00:59:16:28
Dan LeFebvre
Well, I ended up spending more time reading that book on King Arthur than whatever the book was for my homework assignment. Obviously, I can’t even remember what the book was for my homework assignment, but I do remember being fascinated by the legend of King Arthur, and that was the first day that I was.

00:59:16:28 – 00:59:17:14
Dorsey Armstrong
Actually.

00:59:17:14 – 00:59:36:27
Dan LeFebvre
Interested in something historical. I mean, I had done other homework assignments that required me to read history. It wasn’t my first time reading anything in history, but it was the first time that I remember doing it just for the fun of it. And over the years, that fascination grew into a love of medieval history. Overall, I used to spend countless hours as a child.

00:59:36:27 – 00:59:56:27
Dan LeFebvre
I would sketch out castle designs or mapping fictional land and coming up with various countries. Before long, that love of medieval history blossomed into a love for other historical time periods ancient Egypt, World War Two, Classical Greece and the Roman Empire, and so on and so on. So that’s why the legend of King Arthur has always held a special place for me.

00:59:56:27 – 01:00:17:12
Dan LeFebvre
It was the spark that started my love of stories from history at a young age. And this actually ties into today’s episode even more, because many years before I started, based on a true story, I picked up a few of Doctor Armstrong’s great courses over on audible, and I absolutely love them. I love learning about King Arthur and the real history behind the legend of King Arthur.

01:00:17:14 – 01:00:39:05
Dan LeFebvre
So after I started based on a true story, Doctor Armstrong was on my short list of people that would love to talk to, and it was an absolute honor to get to pick her brain about one of my favorite historical subjects. And I hope you had as much fun learning from her as I did. I’ll add a link to some of my favorite work from Doctor Armstrong in the show notes, so you can learn even more about the historical King Arthur.

01:00:39:08 – 01:00:55:02
Dan LeFebvre
And of course, as always, all of those links will be on the show. His home on the web over at. Based on a True Story podcast.com/381. Okay, now it’s time for the answer to our two truth and a lot game from the beginning of the episode, and it’s a quick refresher. Here are the two truths and one lie again.

01:00:55:05 – 01:01:21:12
Dan LeFebvre
Number one, the famous Round Table appears in early fifth century Arthurian stories. Number two Merlin was not associated with Arthur until the 12th century. Number three no Romans lived in villas north of Hadrian’s Wall. Did you figure out which one is a lie? I’ve got the answer in the envelope here. Let’s open it up. And the lie is number one.

01:01:21:15 – 01:01:39:07
Dan LeFebvre
As we learned from Doctor Armstrong, the legend of the Round Table actually starts around the 12th century, along the same time as Merlin enters the picture. At least as far as we know. As always, when you’re talking about history and legends that are that old, there’s a very good chance that there are some things that have been lost to time, or we just don’t have documentation of yet.

01:01:39:09 – 01:02:01:09
Dan LeFebvre
But that wraps up our look at the historical accuracy of the King Arthur movie before I let you go, though, since this is the first episode of 2026, I thought I would throw out an update on what my release schedule will be for the new year, and well, there isn’t one. If you are a long time listener based on a true story, you’ll know that there has not been a defined release schedule for many years now.

01:02:01:12 – 01:02:28:21
Dan LeFebvre
When I first started the podcast, I used to release every other week. That was back in 2016 when I first started the show, and then I went to a weekly release schedule, and then I think it was in 2019 that I officially announced the schedule would be when I get an episode completed, that’s when it gets released. And since then, I have had times where I’ve been fortunate enough to work on the podcast full time to crank out 1 or 2 episodes a week, and then other times it’s been 1 or 2 episodes a month.

01:02:28:24 – 01:02:47:25
Dan LeFebvre
But in 2026, I am sticking with the release schedule of as soon as I get an episode completed, that’s when it will be released. The biggest change this year from last year that I’ve gotten a new day job this year, so I can’t work on, based on a true story, full time anymore. But the podcast is not going anywhere, and I’ll keep releasing episodes as soon as I get to complete it.

01:02:47:28 – 01:03:04:24
Dan LeFebvre
Actually, I’ve already got some fun episode planned for 2026, so I’m excited for what this year will bring. And as always, you can reach out to me at Dan at based on a True Story podcast.com if you have any questions or comments. Thanks again for your continued support. Listening to based on a true story. Now chat with you again really soon.

00:00:02:01 – 00:00:30:17
Dan LeFebvre
Hello and welcome to Based on a True Story, the podcast that compares your favorite Hollywood movies with history. Today is December 7th, which means exactly 84 years ago is when the United States was violently rushed into World War Two with a surprise attack at Pearl Harbor. Now, if you’re a long time fan of the show, you’ll know that we’ve covered numerous movies depicting this event over the years, from 1970s toward toward Tora, and 2001 Pearl Harbor to 2000 and nineteenths midway.

00:00:30:19 – 00:00:53:03
Dan LeFebvre
Today, we’re going beyond what the movies show us, because most movies talk about the surprise attack at the harbor itself. But in the true story, that was just one part of the Japanese offensive on December 7th. And to do that, we’ll be looking at a range of different movies to get a sense of when and where the numerous attacks took place on that day, not just in Hawaii, but around the world.

00:00:53:05 – 00:01:15:11
Dan LeFebvre
Returning to based on a true story to help us unravel the true story beyond Pearl Harbor in the movies is Joshua Donahue, the adjunct professor of history at two different colleges, Suffolk County Community College and Farmingdale State College. Before we get started, though, let’s set up our game for today’s episode. Now, if you’re new to the show since based on a true story, it’s all about separate fact from fiction in the movies.

00:01:15:13 – 00:01:34:11
Dan LeFebvre
You’ll get to practice your skills at separating fact from fiction in this podcast episode with a game of two truths and a lie. So I’m about to give you three things that we’ll talk about in this episode. Two of those are true, and one of them is just an all out lie. Are you ready? Okay, here they are.

00:01:34:14 – 00:02:04:29
Dan LeFebvre
Number one, Wake Island was attack just a few hours after receiving word of the attack on Pearl Harbor. Number two, Phil Rasmussen went up in his P30 six wearing pajamas and landed with about 500 bullet holes in his plane. Number three in addition to military targets, the Japanese attacked numerous civilian targets around Pearl Harbor. Got him. Okay, now, as you’re listening to our story today, see if you can figure out which one of those is the lie.

00:02:05:02 – 00:02:28:09
Dan LeFebvre
And if you’re watching the video version of this, you’ll see I’m holding up this envelope. This has the answer inside, and we’ll open it up at the end of the episode to see if you got it right. Okay. Now it’s time to connect with Joshua Donahue to go beyond Pearl Harbor in the movies.

00:02:28:11 – 00:02:51:11
Dan LeFebvre
Today’s episode is a little different than the typical episode of based on a true story, because we’re not talking about just one movie’s timeline. Instead, we’re flipping it around to focus on the timeline of events before, during, and after the attack at Pearl Harbor and then pulling from an array of movies about Pearl Harbor to get a deeper understanding of history beyond what we see in the movies.

00:02:51:13 – 00:03:16:03
Dan LeFebvre
So let’s start today with a classic film from the year 1953 starring Burt Lancaster, Deborah Kerr and Frank Sinatra called From Here to Eternity. Most of this movie depicts life before the surprise attack at Pearl and it shows what life was like for the US military in 1941. And if we’re to believe the movie’s version of events, things in Hawaii before the attack were calm.

00:03:16:06 – 00:03:41:28
Dan LeFebvre
The movie throws in some internal drama among the men stationed there, but it’s soldiers chasing promotions and women. There’s no mention of the conflicts going on around the world, so after watching that movie, I was left with the impression that basically the average person on Pearl before the attack lived in their own little bubble. Is that a fair assessment of what it was like for the military before the attack at Pearl?

00:03:42:00 – 00:04:11:08
Joshua Donohue
Yes, it absolutely was. And you just mentioned the movie really kind of focuses more so on the, the love story. And as it really it compares in a lot of ways to, the 2001, Michael Bay film, of course, starring, Ben Affleck, Josh Hartnett, Kate Beckinsale. So, going into the film here, eternity, it’s a I really enjoy this movie and it has plenty of drama to it.

00:04:11:15 – 00:04:31:29
Joshua Donohue
And really with the backdrop and the climactic event, you know, I was thinking, you know, it’s the Pearl Harbor films are almost like in a lot of ways, it’s like the Titanic. All right. You know, you know what’s coming. But there’s all this buildup and all this drama that happens before it so gets to sort of, you know, pander to different audience, cater to different audiences, I should say.

00:04:32:04 – 00:04:54:18
Joshua Donohue
But from what I read, the novel is between 80 to 90% accurate. And it would take private James Jones’s. And it’s based on his memoirs, A Full Decade from the writing in the publication, from his first novel, From Here to Eternity, in the autumn of 1951. So the central narrative of the book draws upon Jones’s two years at Schofield Barracks.

00:04:54:25 – 00:05:23:15
Joshua Donohue
And this would, of course, culminate with the attack on Pearl Harbor. So he was a boxer or a bugler. Those things are touched upon in the film. And Ken played by his character, Robert Lee Prewitt. So there is definitely an air of confidence where I would say overconfidence that existed on Oahu. And what you notice in From Here to Eternity that you usually don’t see much in regard any way of concern, for a potential Japanese attack to occur.

00:05:23:18 – 00:06:00:18
Joshua Donohue
While the film largely centers on the two really separate romantic, themes between, Sergeant Milton Warren, played by Burt Lancaster, and Karen Holmes, played by actress Deborah Kerr, the other between Montgomery Clift character Robert E Lee Prewitt and the actress, binary, who plays Alma Lorene Burke. So what I did like about the film itself is this authenticity of especially the scenes that Schofield you see the military, mustering in the training and again, the marching that you see in the film, again, taking place on the parade ground and Schofield Barracks.

00:06:00:20 – 00:06:22:27
Joshua Donohue
So since the film was released in 1953, barely ten years after the actual attack, it really does. Well, as far as its authenticity of military light both on and off the off the base. So the men have the proper period gear. You see the World War One era, the Brody helmet, the 1903 Springfield rifle. That was period correct.

00:06:23:00 – 00:06:48:29
Joshua Donohue
The uniforms, the gear, etc.. Any sort of, you know, history nerd like myself is really going to appreciate those little details. And films. So Army life at Schofield was very regimented, as you see in the film. Revelry at 6 a.m.. Roll call at 630. Breakfast barracks detail, uniform inspection, calisthenics, Infantry drill, mail call, noontime lunch after work duties and 5 p.m. retreat.

00:06:49:06 – 00:07:11:06
Joshua Donohue
And then, the ceremonial lowering of the flag. Evenings were free, so Jones and his comrades would hang around the base or went into the neighboring village, of Louis. Wally, I should say, to drink and sort of view, you know, carouse and everything that they were doing in the film. So the, the men really made few trips to Honolulu since the bars.

00:07:11:06 – 00:07:38:26
Joshua Donohue
They’re really too expensive for the humble enlisted men. You know, maybe the officers went into town there. Schofield life there really emphasize also intramural sport, which is also a theme with each company fielding football, baseball, basketball, track, boxing, boxing. You see, as a theme as well. You can also reference that to the Pearl Harbor film of 2001, Doris Miller, the character played by Cuba Gooding Jr.

00:07:39:03 – 00:08:04:12
Joshua Donohue
And and all the heroics that, again, is also portrayed in Tora Bora. Tora miller was the, boxing champion heavyweight champion on this ship, the USS West Virginia, which was sunk, at Pearl Harbor. So during Jones’s time at Schofield Barracks, his company won three regimental championships, athletic mediocrity. You know, notwithstanding, they took part in boxing.

00:08:04:12 – 00:08:27:06
Joshua Donohue
Football. He would hurt his ankle in the latter. And this injury would continue to bother him for several months. So it also captures the typical nightlife in Oahu, in Honolulu with Oahu, the bars there, the, the brothels, etc.. Hawaii was far from home for the servicemen who were stationed there. So they wanted to make most of their time.

00:08:27:13 – 00:08:46:12
Joshua Donohue
It was a great obviously post during the there were a tropical, place. So the scene where the men were eating breakfast at the mess hall at Schofield Barracks, which was two miles, from Wheeler Army Airfield, which was again based on the accounts, Private James Jones, you see the great scene there where they’re having breakfast on the Sunday morning.

00:08:46:12 – 00:09:14:08
Joshua Donohue
They’re at Schofield, barracks, mess hall. And all of a sudden, you hear, the explosions, taking place, outside. And what I also really enjoyed about the film is that you see actual footage of the attack happening. Oh, the the Arizona exploding, which is obviously the most famous image, captured of the attack. So it’s, I think the the film does a good job really capturing what it was like.

00:09:14:08 – 00:09:22:07
Joshua Donohue
It really was not a whole lot of, you know, fear. And as it was after the attack, it was completely different climate altogether.

00:09:22:09 – 00:09:40:17
Dan LeFebvre
It puts a whole new spin on it. And we all know it as, you know, a surprise attack. But just the, the, the contrast of what we see in, you know, from here to eternity. And, and it’s like you’re saying a post to a tropical location. It’s, it almost seems like they’re on vacation and, you know, there’s really nothing to worry about.

00:09:40:17 – 00:09:45:11
Dan LeFebvre
And then all of a sudden they’ve got stuff to worry about. You know, a.

00:09:45:13 – 00:10:13:18
Joshua Donohue
Whole new ballgame. It’s it’s no longer a tropical, you know, I’ll get into a little bit later. But yeah, after the attack, the entire life on Oahu changes 180 degrees. And it goes from this, you know, great nightlife and great post and, and kind of getting into trouble and drinking women, all these sorts of things to blackouts, to drills to, you know, a martial law which will be declared, following the attack.

00:10:13:20 – 00:10:32:23
Dan LeFebvre
Well, you mentioned Tora, Tora tours. So let’s move on to that one. It’s a 1970 film, just probably one of the most common movies depicting the attack on Pearl Harbor. The first half of that movie is all about the events leading up to the attack, and we find the U.S. military trying to figure out where the Japanese are going to attack.

00:10:33:00 – 00:10:57:08
Dan LeFebvre
They think it might be the Philippines, or maybe Thailand or maybe Borneo. They don’t seem to think the attack will be at Pearl Harbor, which of course we know from history factored into why it was such a surprise attack like we were talking about, because the movie then focuses mostly on the surprise attack at Pearl. It seems to imply that perhaps those other locations that just mentioned weren’t targets.

00:10:57:09 – 00:11:09:20
Dan LeFebvre
Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the Japanese also launch attacks in other locations? Other than Hawaii, such as Wake Island? Can you give some more context around the scale of the Japanese offensive in December 1941?

00:11:09:22 – 00:11:42:11
Joshua Donohue
Yeah, that’s absolutely correct. And it at that point in time, the Japanese military between the ground, sea and air operations were seemingly everywhere in the Pacific, especially following the attack on Pearl Harbor. Keep in mind the midway, another film that depicts the attack, obviously, you know, fast forwarding into June of 1942, while that climactic battle will take place, actually, midway is struck also, during that that time period as well, that morning, by a pair of Japanese destroyers, you know, nominal damage.

00:11:42:11 – 00:12:09:03
Joshua Donohue
But again, it’s it’s again a multi-pronged attack. Wake Island, as you mentioned, located about 2000 miles, to the west of the Hawaiian Islands, was struck about four hours after receiving word by radio from Pearl Harbor that it was under attack. So all of these locations, really from, wake on over the Philippines, Hong Kong, obviously. Or it’s December 8th, 1941, since it’s lying on the other side of the International Date Line.

00:12:09:06 – 00:12:40:07
Joshua Donohue
So the story of wake itself is often forgotten amidst the attack on Pearl Harbor and bases on Oahu. The 1942 film starring Brian Dunne, Levy, Robert Preston and McDonnell Carey was the first time that Americans really had a visual sense of of somewhat what happened there. Although it was not accurate in many ways, especially the ending part, where the Japanese who says basically come and take, you know, come and get us and, you know, the island falls and the Americans fight to the last man.

00:12:40:09 – 00:13:13:06
Joshua Donohue
That’s obviously not what happened. Most of the wake veterans who later saw the film, after they returned home from Japanese P.O.W. camps, didn’t really think too much of it just due to the just the overload of inaccuracies in it. And, of course, wake would fall to the Japanese on the 23rd of December, 1941, after a fierce 16 day battle work in the American garrison, there was about 450 Marines, about 1200 civilians who are in charge of, you know, building, the government contract with the base facilities, road networks, these types of things.

00:13:13:06 – 00:13:42:26
Joshua Donohue
So, the island falls and the Japanese will capture and will be held, all the way through until the end of the war. So the, the Japanese forces also began landing, in the Philippines. And on December 8th, 1941, they would seize most of the island of Luzon by December, December 24th and more than 120,000 Japanese troops were committed during, the battle and against a force of about 150,000 American and Filipino defenders.

00:13:42:28 – 00:14:09:07
Joshua Donohue
So amphibious landings were there, were supported by air attacks, fighters and bombers, coming in from the island of Formosa, which is modern day Taiwan. So these air attacks devastated the Far East air Force, much of which was destroyed on the ground, as we see happened to Pearl Harbor. All of those aircraft just parked out in the open wingtip to wingtip, for fear, obviously, that was going on with Jack with, you know, fear of Japanese sabotage.

00:14:09:12 – 00:14:37:18
Joshua Donohue
So Japanese, you know, aviators were just looking at these targets out in the open. All they had to do is simply just press the trigger. So the invasion force that was sent to the Philippines consisted of, the Japanese 14th Army under the command of general Masaharu Homma. And at about 3:40 a.m. on December 8th, 1941, The Fallen Ring, Lieutenant General Douglas MacArthur’s lavish apartment atop the Manila Hotel.

00:14:37:21 – 00:14:57:15
Joshua Donohue
It was MacArthur’s chief of staff telling him about the news about Pearl Harbor and that MacArthur, again as the commander of American forces in the Philippines, he had sort of wrestled what what to do next? Should he attack Formosa? Should he not? And there was bad weather in the area which actually prevented the Japanese from attacking.

00:14:57:20 – 00:15:23:24
Joshua Donohue
So MacArthur doesn’t really seize the initiative here before he authorizes the strike. It’s it’s far too late. So, the Japanese, you know, would again eventually take the Philippines and again, you would have the fall of Corregidor, soon after the fall of Bataan. They had again occupied Korea, Southeast Asia, Malaysia, Formosa, and large portions of the Chinese mainland.

00:15:23:24 – 00:16:08:14
Joshua Donohue
And they would also occupy, the Solomons, the Gilberts, the Marianas, the Carolinas, the Marshall Islands. So there were literally, no bases between Hawaii and Japan. And the first Japanese landings also would take place in December 8th in northern Malaya, in southern Thailand. So, General Yamashita, on the 10th of December, had penetrated the Malayan frontier all the way, to the city of kata and eventually sinking the Japanese, to the two British battleships, I should say the HMS Prince of Wales and the HMS repulse, which enabled the Japanese now to continue landing their troops, establishing bases in Malaya with really without any limit, really limited Allied interference.

00:16:08:21 – 00:16:46:01
Joshua Donohue
So they, had again advanced all over Southeast Asia and in places all around, they continued. Then by February the 15th, the defenders had driven back to the suburbs of Singapore. And again, food and water supplies were low and that evening, British general Arthur Percival would surrender to the Japanese. So again on 8:00 on this eighth, December 1941, eight hours after the Pearl Harbor attack, again, it had been a disaster, and it would continue to be one bad piece of news after another.

00:16:46:04 – 00:17:07:10
Joshua Donohue
Guam would also be attacked and it would fall. Hong Kong, it would also form what would be termed, Black Christmas. When Hong Kong was surrendered to the Japanese on December 25th, 1941. So pretty much from, you know, the beginning of December, right from the Pearl Harbor attack on the Japanese were were everywhere. And really, we were really, really on the ropes.

00:17:07:13 – 00:17:30:27
Dan LeFebvre
And it sounds like, from everything happening on December or December 8th across the International date line, like with Wake Island and the Philippines, one unique thing about Pearl Harbor, other than being, you know, part of the United States instead of, you know, a territory, is they didn’t have boots on the ground like they did in some of these other places.

00:17:30:27 – 00:17:49:15
Dan LeFebvre
And so it seems like almost I mean, I don’t want to make it seem like Pearl Harbor wasn’t a devastating attack, but, you know, they didn’t land boots on the ground and and actually capture it and take it over, like they did in Wake Island. So, I mean, just the logistics of that of of all of that at once.

00:17:49:15 – 00:17:56:12
Dan LeFebvre
I mean, the logistics of the attack at Pearl Harbor alone. But the logistics of, of all of that just had to be massive.

00:17:56:14 – 00:18:28:04
Joshua Donohue
Yeah. And that’s that’s really where America found itself when Pearl Harbor was attacked. And again, things could have been much worse. A lot of people don’t really think about it as much of a disaster as the attack really seemed. And again, there was you didn’t have the real time information that we have nowadays, and news sort of still traveled really slowly back and, you know, 1941, but once the smoke starts to clear, the, you know, the Japanese didn’t sick of the aircraft carriers.

00:18:28:04 – 00:18:50:24
Joshua Donohue
Luckily that day there were, you know, the USS Lexington was, bringing fighters to midway at the time, and the USS enterprise was coming back from Wake Island. It had delivered the, forward echelon of VMF to 11, under, a major Paul Putnam. Those 12 fighters were b the only Air force that Wake Island would have throughout the the entire siege.

00:18:50:26 – 00:19:10:03
Joshua Donohue
Seven of them were completely destroyed on the ground when the Japanese hit. They really only had four aircraft. Really that the most at a time. And little by little, those numbers were kind of whittled down as the attack went on. They were literally scavenge scavenged, salvaged parts from, you know, derelict planes to put them on usable ones and fly them.

00:19:10:03 – 00:19:31:10
Joshua Donohue
And just the, the engineering and the ingenuity, on the ground there at wake in the stories I’ve read about the accounts there, it’s just it’s almost like a heavyweight fight and just two boxers just going at it, you know, the Marines being, you know, the the unmanned underdog. But they just kept fighting and fighting and fighting until the Japanese, you know, just, you know, brought everything to bear.

00:19:31:11 – 00:19:52:28
Joshua Donohue
They actually thwarted an amphibious invasion three days after that, sunk a, a destroyer. Henry Elrod sunk another following, few hours later with small bombs from little Wildcat fighters. And that’s how the that how much the fighting spirit you would get the, you would receive the Medal of Honor for that. He would not actually survive the battle.

00:19:53:01 – 00:20:03:28
Joshua Donohue
He was killed on the very last day in the morning, and from Japanese fire. So in the wake story, you know, it’s it’s tied to Pearl Harbor in many ways. And, it’s it’s pretty remarkable.

00:20:04:05 – 00:20:24:10
Dan LeFebvre
If we go back to Hawaii and back to to water to the first wave of Japanese planes that we see there, in the movie take off from their carriers as the sun is rising on December 7th, 1941. And we see them flying across Oahu’s farmland and right to Pearl Harbor, where they ultimately commence the first wave of attacks at Pearl.

00:20:24:12 – 00:20:43:00
Dan LeFebvre
And while the movie does show a few other things like USS firing on a Japanese sub just outside Pearl and the B-17s, it got mixed up in the raid on Pearl. Those are all tied to the attack at the base at Pearl Harbor. So I can see how someone watching that movie might think that Pearl Harbor was the only place surprised by the attack.

00:20:43:03 – 00:20:49:04
Dan LeFebvre
Were there any other military installations in Hawaii that were surprised by a Japanese attack on December 7th?

00:20:49:06 – 00:21:16:06
Joshua Donohue
Yeah, and the Japanese first attack, wave, was assigned many fighters and bombers, specifically, purpose for the air base, suppression of all the fighter bases around Oahu. So the fighters set the planes afire with the machine gun and cannon fire. As I mentioned, they’re all parked out in the open. And all of the, you know, all the installations across, you know, every one Wheeler, every field, Kaneohe Bay, all out in the open again.

00:21:16:06 – 00:21:35:07
Joshua Donohue
There’s that fear of the Japanese sabotage. So they want to have visual, you know, a look at every single plane that’s out there. And it turns out to be an absolutely terrible decision. So literally all of the Japanese pilots have to do is just fly right in a straight line. And for the wing tanks and the planes are destroyed.

00:21:35:10 – 00:22:01:07
Joshua Donohue
The second attack wave also had airfield strikes among its tasks. So the subject of my latest article in World War two, history magazine, which is on newsstands now, I wrote about the attack on the Marine Corps Air Station at, Mooring Mast Field. It’s about seven miles to the west of Pearl Harbor, home to several squadrons of clothing, as I mentioned, a VMF 211, which was the, again, the same squadron sent to Wake Island.

00:22:01:07 – 00:22:20:29
Joshua Donohue
And lo, we fought the very last aircraft, after the initial seven were destroyed on the ground and the initial Japanese raid. So the base there was attacked that morning, a few minutes prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor, by the feared Mitsubishi A-6, m2 zero fighter, which at that time was the most dominant fighter in the skies.

00:22:20:29 – 00:22:51:11
Joshua Donohue
At that point, the Americans had no, real answer for it at the time. So any zero or, D3, a Val dive bomber, which and expended its ordnance at Pearl Harbor against the ships and the other the targets there would fly back and use whatever, ammunition or bombs that they had against every field ever field, unfortunately, had the luck, the bad luck of being located right near where the Japanese rendezvous point was when they were going to form up to fly back to the ship.

00:22:51:12 – 00:23:16:17
Joshua Donohue
So all of that activity flying out of Pearl Harbor, going in and coming out ever was really caught in the middle of that maelstrom. So you also had Wheeler Army Airfield in central Oahu, which was Hawaii’s main fighter base. It was also heavily attacked. Some 140 planes were on the ground there, merely P40 and P30 six pursuit planes, nearly two thirds were destroyed or put out of action.

00:23:16:19 – 00:23:41:18
Joshua Donohue
So a similar, proportion of B-17, B18 and A20 bombers at Hickam Army Airfield, which was located right next to, just looking to the east, or Pearl Harbor Navy in that Navy yard. It was also wrecked and damaged enough to keep all of them grounded. So many of the men, killed at Hickam when the Japanese bomber barracks, smaller Bellows Field was on eastern Oahu, was also hit.

00:23:41:24 – 00:24:22:23
Joshua Donohue
Just really mostly straight. I the a couple of Japanese, zeros. They destroyed a couple of P-40s trying to take off. Two pilots actually tried, into the teeth of that enemy onslaught. It was a, you know, again, an active it just, you know, courage and bravery. So the U.S. Navy and Marine Corps air stations on Pearl Harbor, Fort Island, at and ever and the West Pearl at Kaneohe, Bay near Bellows Field, again received all sorts of concentrated attention from the Raiders and was aircraft complement mainly carrier bombers and fighters, was reduced to nearly 50 operational planes to less than 20.

00:24:22:23 – 00:24:45:23
Joshua Donohue
So nearly every plane was either damaged or destroyed. So Fort Island in Kaneohe were also home to several squadrons of long range PBY patrol. Sea planes also attacked heavily, with Fought Island losing about half its planes in Kaneohe, all but a few. So the Naval Air Station, at Kaneohe Bay was bombed very, you know, particularly hard.

00:24:45:26 – 00:25:08:17
Joshua Donohue
It’s to the on the east coast of Oahu. It’s a major Navy ship, sea patrol plane base. And one of the main reasons why the Japanese would target these bases is because they didn’t want to have the risks run the risk of having any long range planes. Follow them all the way back out to find where the carriers were, and then you know exactly where they’re at, and they can send war attack planes to out against them.

00:25:08:24 – 00:25:31:06
Joshua Donohue
So it was imperative to the Japanese that they were attacking every single plane on the ground. And you also touched upon, the USS Woodward and the B-17s depicted, in Tora, Tora, Tora, these events truly what makes that film so true to life? Because there are really otherwise other really overlooked and other films about Pearl Harbor.

00:25:31:14 – 00:26:03:09
Joshua Donohue
They’re important because of the sinking of the Japanese mini sub, by the ward’s gunners. Again, it was contrary to popular belief, but it was was the Americans who actually fired the very first shot at Pearl Harbor. And again, the the tour. Tora, Tora! You know, with the P-40s, you know, we talk about them with the, both the George Welch and, Kenneth Taylor, as we see in the film itself and loosely portrayed in the 2001 film as well, we loosely, loosely portrayed.

00:26:03:09 – 00:26:28:23
Joshua Donohue
Yeah, for a variety of reasons. Yes. Yeah. Michael Bay gets a little carried away with those scenes. But the one, the one scene in Tora, Tortuga, which always blows me away, is the one seen at Wheeler Field, where you have the P-40 that’s hit and it crashes in to the flight line of other P-40s. You actually see it from different scenes, shot from different angles, but it’s the same scene.

00:26:29:00 – 00:26:45:27
Joshua Donohue
That was actually an accident, that that scene was not supposed to happen the way it did. And you see the way that you see those guys running for their lives, they’re really running for their lives in that scene. So look at that scene again. That was not some not meant to happen the way it was supposed to.

00:26:46:01 – 00:27:06:21
Joshua Donohue
Total. Luckily, no one was injured. But yeah, that was that was an interesting one. Also to note, and just in addition to those other bases, Kaneohe Bay, Hickam Field, Wheeler Bellows, Ford Island and ever you also have a lot of smaller coastal defense, forts that are in and around the Pearl Harbor area.

00:27:06:27 – 00:27:29:02
Joshua Donohue
You have Fort Armstrong, you have Fort Barrett. A soldier there was killed by a strafing Japanese plane. Fort de Russie, you have Fort Kamehameha. Seven men were killed or four wounded there. A soldier was also killed at nearby Fort Shafter, by an errant U.S. Navy shell, which was meant for a Japanese plane, but would unfortunately not explode until it hit the ground there.

00:27:29:06 – 00:27:50:09
Joshua Donohue
So the Japanese didn’t really specifically target these in of these installations, but the men there were fighting back with everything they had. They really only had coastal defense guns, so they couldn’t aim them up in the sky and shoot them at the Japanese planes. But if there was a rifle or a machine gun to be had and loaded, you know, the men, they were going to be fighting back with everything they had.

00:27:50:12 – 00:27:59:15
Dan LeFebvre
And I have to go back and watch to our to our to Oregon now. Yeah. I mean, I guess it’s a war movie. So I guess if something like that happens and all your props are destroyed, you mind, you got to throw it in the family got it.

00:27:59:17 – 00:28:18:02
Joshua Donohue
And what’s great is they, they they had the wherewithal to shoot it from different camera perspectives. And if you look, they shoot that scene and, and put it in from different angles. So it looks like a different scene, but it’s actually taken from the same scene. I mean, you had to use that material because that you cannot capture that kind of drama.

00:28:18:02 – 00:28:22:10
Joshua Donohue
And, and in normal, normal, rehearsed kind of settings. So. Yeah.

00:28:22:13 – 00:28:44:16
Dan LeFebvre
Wait, we you talked a lot about the planes on the ground and something else that we see in some of the movies about Pearl Harbor are American planes that are already in the air when the attack happened, we talked about the B-17s. We touched on those, from Twitter, Tora! And 2019 midway. We see Clarence Dickenson casually flying his plane back to base when he notices explosions in the distance that he might be artillery training.

00:28:44:19 – 00:29:02:26
Dan LeFebvre
That changes a moment later when he shot it by the Japanese planes. In in towards moratoria again, there’s, actually a trainer. It’s that’s surrounded by the Japanese planes on their way to the attack. They don’t shoot at the trainer because it’s not a military plane. But then there’s movies like 1960s Storm Over the Pacific or 2001 Pearl Harbor.

00:29:02:27 – 00:29:18:06
Dan LeFebvre
We don’t really see any American planes in the air when the attack happens. So there seems to be a mixed message from the movies when it comes to planes already in the air at the time of the attack, can you unravel the historical side of things? Were there American planes already in the air when the attack took place?

00:29:18:09 – 00:29:38:19
Joshua Donohue
Yeah, there were and they were mainly civilian. That really, really ruined any military. The really the only military planes really in the air were the ones that were coming in. The B-17s were coming in from the West coast, from California, from the 38th and 80th Reconnaissance Wings, just a mixture of B-17 simply there were 12 of them.

00:29:38:21 – 00:30:09:06
Joshua Donohue
And recall that it was also on a Sunday before 8 a.m.. So really the only planes airborne that morning were were mainly civilians. So you mentioned the scene in Tora to our Tora. And that actually did did happen at John Rogers Airport, which is, current day Daniel K in a way, airport. This is just really, you know, right to right below where, Hickam Air, Army Airfield is just where the battleships were at the top of the target list.

00:30:09:09 – 00:30:34:28
Joshua Donohue
A Hawaiian Airlines DC3 had just boarded passengers as was preparing to depart. Local attorney, Roy V to second his son Martin, who was 17, were circling the airport about 800ft and ATC 65 and Aaron Cook, rented from what was was the Gambo Flying Service, one of three flight schools that had been established on the airfield to provide instruction under the civilian Flight training program.

00:30:35:01 – 00:31:00:18
Joshua Donohue
So the owner of that school, Marguerite Gambo, was teaching a student, in a myers OT biplane flying near another Japanese target, kind of yohe. So plumes of smoke rising now from Kaneohe made it clear to Gamboa at this point that the war planes were not American. Her and, her airplane was actually buffeted by the turbulence of the fighters pulling up from their strafing runs as they’re nearing her.

00:31:00:18 – 00:31:35:23
Joshua Donohue
So the fighters didn’t engage the biplane as accurately as you see in the film. However, Gambo, whose encounter was likely the one depicted in the film Tora, Tora, Tora, albeit the wrong aircraft. Again, there’s that history nerd stuff again. The it turned and raced towards John Rogers Airport. There were also a pair of Piper cubs that departed, John Rogers that morning at 740 and headed northeast, flying just off Waikiki Beach towards Diamondhead before turning west and then bound for, camp mahala Callaway on the other side of the island.

00:31:36:00 – 00:32:10:19
Joshua Donohue
And this was where the soldiers of the California National Coast Guard, 251st Coastal Artillery Regiment were based at that time. So the Cub pilots was a passenger of one of the aircraft. Were all members of that unit? So Sergeant Henry Blackwell, corporal Clyde Brown had both been taught to fly, in their off duty hours, by, Robert Tice, who was the, co-owner of the Katy Flying Service, one of three civilian schools and based at John Rogers Airport, and then Sergeant Warren D Rasmussen had come along for a sightseeing, excursion.

00:32:10:25 – 00:32:34:01
Joshua Donohue
So Tice and his wife and the had meanwhile arrived at the airport, not long after the Cubs departed and minutes before the fighters began to strafe the field. So Tice was standing next to his wife on the ramp and was hit in the head, in the first moments of the attack and killed instantly. And this would be one of the first of between estimates, I’ve heard between 47, 54 I’ve heard.

00:32:34:01 – 00:33:09:24
Joshua Donohue
And the number I see most is 68, civilians, struck down. So the soldiers had trained, and were flying about two miles offshore and at around 500ft, headed towards their base. And the V the sects were also circling overhead, having returned, from their flight. And they were, also again, another instructor, Cornelia Fort, was flying Interstate S1 a cadet with a local student, the defense worker and the cadet was approaching John Rogers Airport to practice touch and goes.

00:33:09:27 – 00:33:42:12
Joshua Donohue
So a sailor aboard a Navy tugboat whose account included in the Honolulu Star Bulletin story, which was published on December 20th, 1941. Had sworn in a deposition that they recalled seeing, two yellow cubs flying offshore about 500ft when the Japanese aircraft pounced on flight. There were about seven enemy warplanes, in that number, one Cub plummeted into the ocean, while the other circle for a moment also, before diving in the water, presumably hit, and the only really small fragments were ever found.

00:33:42:14 – 00:34:05:24
Joshua Donohue
So there were a number of, again, military aircraft around, Oahu’s airspace, as I mentioned, of course, the B-17s that were trying to land at Hickam Army Airfield, they’re low on gas. There are. Even when they see the smoke, there’s still not quite sure what they’re seeing until they start seeing Japanese planes flying all around them. It’s about as accurate as it gets when it when it’s shot.

00:34:05:24 – 00:34:30:07
Joshua Donohue
And Tora, Tora, Tora with major Truman landing and he’s trying to land. But he has got one real up, and the plane actually skids to a halt. That the plane they’re probably depicting is the one that’s actually, shot, a zero strafed as it’s landing, it’s splits in half and you see just the upright portion of it sticking up the the tail is completely you know, away from the plane.

00:34:30:09 – 00:34:52:24
Joshua Donohue
That photograph is quite, you know, you see that quite common. There’s also the story of the crew of the San Antonio Rose, B-17 e of the idiot Reconnaissance Squadron, who ended up landing on the seventh fairway of the Kahuku Golf Course on Oahu’s north eastern side. And I always think to myself, if I ever get a chance to play golf on Oahu, I’m going to play golf there.

00:34:52:27 – 00:35:12:24
Joshua Donohue
Or the one next to ever feel that might never come back. Yeah. So they’re that most of the many, you know, the planes were in the air were civilian that morning. And again, the among the first casualties, especially, as I mentioned, those military members who had lost their lives in that one civilian aircraft, were the first, to lose their lives that morning.

00:35:12:27 – 00:35:34:08
Dan LeFebvre
I think it was a I think it was in Tora, Tortuga when the B-17s, the pilots like, what a what a heck of a way to fly into a war or something like that as their, as they’re flying in. I mean, I can only imagine how terrifying and terrifying it would be. But also, like you look at it like there has to be moments of is is this real?

00:35:34:08 – 00:35:54:18
Dan LeFebvre
Like what is what is like just pure disbelief, especially for, you know, trainers and you know, that there’s, military. So you might not know if the military is doing exercises or like with Dickinson and in many ways, like, you know, maybe they’re doing artillery training and they’re I think one of the his, copilots like, oh, that’s, you know, it’s a weird time to do training, right?

00:35:54:18 – 00:36:00:03
Dan LeFebvre
And then they get shot at. So obviously it’s not training, but, can’t imagine what’s running through people’s heads.

00:36:00:05 – 00:36:23:14
Joshua Donohue
And there’s a, there’s a story even from wake Island, when the, when they first see the that flight of Japanese bombers approaching out of a low cloud bank only a few thousand feet off the ground, and they start dropping bombs. Some of the observers say, oh, look, they’re dropping their wheels. They’re, you know, they’re friendly planes. They’re dropping like, no, they’re they’re dropping bombs, open fires.

00:36:23:14 – 00:36:35:20
Joshua Donohue
So, yeah, I mean, right up until that, until the bombs literally started falling, people just couldn’t understand or comprehend that this was even possible. And here it here it was unfolding right before their eyes.

00:36:35:22 – 00:36:54:26
Dan LeFebvre
I’m reminded of you talking about, you know, dropping the wheels. I, I was it towards I think it was toward toward where, where, there is, a plane that’s flying over Pearl Harbor. Japanese plane. And the officer is like, I’ll get that guy’s name. We’re gonna write him up, right? And then they see the bomb start dropping and and it’s like, obviously, you know, so it’s like, yeah, that disbelief, that.

00:36:54:26 – 00:37:28:18
Joshua Donohue
Scene is actually very accurate to to that’s, that’s that’s actually based on, the very first bomb that’s dropped on Ford Island is what that scene is. And again, they’re they’re all in mourning, you know, the, the flag ceremonies, the other bands playing that was going on exactly at that moment. And when you see that first plane, a Val drop a bomb and explode, that bomb is actually on is dropped on hangar six, which is the very which is the seaplane base at the very, southeastern end of Fort Island.

00:37:28:24 – 00:37:32:09
Joshua Donohue
So that actual scene is based on reality.

00:37:32:12 – 00:37:55:07
Dan LeFebvre
Well, you might have already answered this question, but some of the movies about the attack show airfields away from the harbor itself. Toward toward. Toya shows an attack on what I believe is Wheeler Field. 2001 Pearl Harbor has a scene that I think might also be Wheeler Field, that it it doesn’t really mention it in the movie, because I think that part of the movie is mostly just an excuse to get Ben Affleck and Josh Hartnett’s characters in a plane to take off and fight back.

00:37:55:09 – 00:38:07:27
Dan LeFebvre
So for those of us who haven’t been there, can you give us, a bit of geographical context and an overview of the American airfields on Oahu in 1941, and then which ones of those were attacked?

00:38:08:00 – 00:38:32:27
Joshua Donohue
Yeah. So as I mentioned, Wheeler, you mentioned Wheeler Field, and that was the route that is the main fighter base Wheeler is on. The airfield is located in central Oahu, about 12 miles to the north of Pearl Harbor. And Wheeler again was the site of several major historic, actually aviation events, including the first, nonstop mainland to Hawaii flight by Army Air Corps Lieutenant Lester J.

00:38:32:27 – 00:39:03:07
Joshua Donohue
Maitland and Albert Helgenberger in 1927. There was also the great Gold Derby air race from Hawaii, California to Hawaii. Also in 1927, the first trans Pacific flight in the United States to Australia, the Australian squadron leader, Charles Kingsford Smith in 1928 and the first Hawaii to mainland solo flight in 1935 by none other than Amelia Earhart, who flew from Wheeler Field to Oakland, California.

00:39:03:09 – 00:39:36:12
Joshua Donohue
Amelia Earhart also, had an accident on Ford Island’s airstrip, which was, formerly Luke Field. She ground looped, her aircraft there. And we just completely just flipped it over and, you know, it was was again, very obviously active, in that area and during many of her, her flights and this again, also brings us to, every field, in is often pronounced Iowa field, but it’s actually every field, it’s that is several miles as I mentioned, to the west from Pearl Harbor.

00:39:36:14 – 00:39:57:23
Joshua Donohue
You also again have Hickam Army Airfield, which is just situated to the east of Pearl Harbor. That was hit hard during the attacks and again possessed longer range aircraft. It could potentially locate the Japanese carriers and attack them. So this is where the B-17s arriving from California were landing. Most of them were. Again, they were all meant to land there.

00:39:57:23 – 00:40:19:05
Joshua Donohue
All but I believe four landed there. So Tour Territory does a great job depicting the scene. So since Hickam set really to chase into Pearl Harbor, it was hit severely and it had the highest number of losses in comparison to ever Wheeler, bellows, Kaneohe and the Escort Island. So nice. Pearl Harbor lies directly in the middle of Pearl Harbor.

00:40:19:12 – 00:40:41:17
Joshua Donohue
There’s a little tiny island there, if you look on a on Google Maps, and the airstrip is actually still there, but it hasn’t been used many years. The battleships were lined up all along side for four islands the eastern side, the Nevada, the Arizona, the Vestal, the West Virginia, the Tennessee, Oklahoma, Maryland and California. The USS Neosho as well.

00:40:41:20 – 00:41:10:11
Joshua Donohue
The on the western side of Fort Island, you have the light cruisers USS Detroit, USS Raleigh, the former battleship USS Utah, which was converted to a, a target ship. Utah is actually one of the first ships that’s torpedoed. They actually initiated the Japanese, torpedo planes that attack Utah. Some of their pods think it’s actually an a carrier is parked there, and they mistake the Utah for me care, because normally a carrier is parked on that side of the island.

00:41:10:17 – 00:41:31:25
Joshua Donohue
So they, the Utah rolls over and capsizes, kills about 58 men inside of it. So in Tau Tau Tau, when the first wave arrives, you get to you just mentioned that great part about, you know, dropping the bomb and getting that guy’s number on the seaplane ramp. That, again, is depicted, at Ford Island on, the seaplane ramp there.

00:41:32:02 – 00:41:56:21
Joshua Donohue
And another lesser known base I mentioned it earlier was, Bellows Army Airfield. This is really a sub post for Wheeler Army Airfield until it became its own separate military post, in July of 1941. And it’s located on the southeastern side of Oahu. And it’s during the attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7th. Again, there were, two military members killed and six wounded at bellows.

00:41:56:28 – 00:42:17:01
Joshua Donohue
They didn’t kill three, included three pilots of the 44th Pursuit Squadron, who were at bellows for gunnery training and attempted to take off in their P-40s. Again, one was killed climbing into his play, in the second was killed, shot down immediately after getting into the air. And the third, Samuel Bishop took off in his P-40, but actually got shot down.

00:42:17:02 – 00:42:42:18
Joshua Donohue
Actually had to swim back to shore after his plane was damaged and crashed into the ocean. So if you really look at a Wahoo from a defensive perspective, because I mentioned they have a lot of other, coastal artillery defense, positions that were built, they had positions built in the side of mountains. There were casements. There were, you know, fire control bunkers all over the island.

00:42:42:18 – 00:43:17:16
Joshua Donohue
So Oahu is in a, in essence, a floating, land based, battleship. And it was bristling with guns, especially concentrated very heavily around the mouth of Pearl Harbor, because obviously, you have, you know, ships coming in and out of there. You have aircraft for Kamehameha was really the buffer, and fought Fort Armstrong with being the other, being two of the major, you know, strategic, coastal artillery positions that were again assigned to protect anything that was coming in and out of the harbor, anything that was coming out from the sea.

00:43:17:19 – 00:43:29:05
Joshua Donohue
You know, if this Japanese had ships that they were going to invade, Oahu that morning, those, you know, those sides would have been, you know, firing away at those ships and trying to, as many as they possibly could.

00:43:29:07 – 00:43:47:07
Dan LeFebvre
But you might have already answered my my next question because you talked a little bit about the, collateral damage, I’ll say, for the you know, civilian getting shot, movies tend to focus on what’s happening in the harbor itself, of course, but some of them do cut away to show scenes from a distance. First comes to -2019.

00:43:47:07 – 00:44:09:24
Dan LeFebvre
Midway shows Patrick Wilson’s character at Layton as he pulls his car over on the side of the road. For a moment, just to end. He sees, you know, numerous ships ablaze as more Japanese planes continue their attack. 2000, which Pearl Harbor also shows civilians around the island watching the planes fly over as the attack unfolds. And the way that these sequences in the movies play out, it almost seems to imply that the attack is at Pearl Harbor.

00:44:09:24 – 00:44:31:18
Dan LeFebvre
And you talked about some of the other airfields and stuff, but, maybe anybody who is now in one of those areas that’s a target must be safe, because they’re watching these explosions go from what seems like to be a safe distance. Can you help explain what the morning of December 7th, 1941, was like for people who were on Oahu, but maybe not actually at Pearl Harbor, even one of the targets themselves?

00:44:31:20 – 00:44:55:19
Joshua Donohue
Yeah, the, the it was not only an absolutely terrifying few hours and especially in the days, weeks and and really years after there were the blackouts, there was martial law declared on the entire city of Honolulu, was basically on lockdown. There were air raid drills, gas attack drills. You couldn’t go out at night. So life on Oahu was never really the same after the attack.

00:44:55:22 – 00:45:16:02
Joshua Donohue
And most civilians who had heard or saw the Japanese planes coming over just assume that it was another drill by the US Navy or the US Army Air Force, you know, conducting practice sorties, you know, and even with the the when the bombs started dropping and the explosions in thinking from here to eternity even say, okay, they must be blasting the coral heads.

00:45:16:05 – 00:45:37:01
Joshua Donohue
And then all of a sudden the explosions were right outside the window. Okay. Maybe not. So, I can going back to that, that this scene also in from here to Eternity and where they see the planes themselves and assuming that they’re American. But yeah, it’s odd for a Sunday. What are they doing? And again, it’s that scene in Tora, Tortuga where the flying over to get that guy’s number.

00:45:37:07 – 00:45:55:27
Joshua Donohue
They just couldn’t really imagine, you know, the Japanese, you know, attacking like that in, in the 2001 Pearl Harbor movie. Josh Hartnett’s character, Danny, makes a similar comment when he and Ben Affleck’s character are walking on the ice of the attack with a sleeping on the back of their car and said, why is the Navy running?

00:45:55:29 – 00:46:19:27
Joshua Donohue
You know, running, you know, drills on Sunday? And I think about also Daniel Inoue’s quote from a Ken Burns series when he when he sees the anti-aircraft fire and smoke coming from Pearl Harbor, he calls his dad out at that moment, sees three planes fly over, presumably zeros over their house. And in a way, he said, at that moment, he knew exactly what was happening.

00:46:20:00 – 00:46:41:18
Joshua Donohue
He was a 17 year old, you know, volunteer for the Red cross and had just the grim duty of having to recover. A lot of the civilians were killed that morning. So during the attack, there were incredible acts of courage and bravery taking place. Civilians were working alongside military personnel at all of the military installations which were attacked that morning.

00:46:41:18 – 00:47:07:28
Joshua Donohue
So they were exposed to the same dangers as the soldiers, airmen, sailors and Marines. So really, the most the most civilians that were killed by Japanese bullets were against civilians who were working in and around military installations. One story was George Walters, who was, civilian dockworker. He was a crane operator at the Pearl Harbor Navy Yard.

00:47:08:01 – 00:47:33:12
Joshua Donohue
The battleship USS Pennsylvania was in drydock directly in front of him with the two destroyers, the USS Carson and the USS Downes, ahead of the Pennsylvania drydock. So when the attack occurred, he positioned his crane directly over the Pennsylvania in an effort to shield the ship and its crew from the attacking planes. He would be injured by a bomb and struck, that struck the battleship, but only caused minor damage.

00:47:33:18 – 00:47:57:03
Joshua Donohue
So the cast and the downs were both hit by bombs that were seriously damaged. As a result, a lot of the, if you see a lot of them moving and, you know, the the the photographs of the attack, the biggest were some of the biggest columns of smoke, obviously coming from Battleship Row, but it as it goes over, further, you see the USS Shaw, which is on fire, and the castle and the downs and all of the, the planes, on the Hickam Field flight line.

00:47:57:10 – 00:48:34:00
Joshua Donohue
So again, you see a lot of this, take place, again, during the attacks. So smoke columns are coming up, everywhere. And more than anything else, there was this sort of unshakable belief amongst the civilian population that the Japanese were going to be back in some way, shape or form, whether that be another attack wave of planes and even rumors were flying at that night that Japanese soldiers are landing on Hawaii, that there are paratroopers that had been seen, though the rumors and the misinformation and the things that people don’t know and that that could be, you know, a dangerous thing, too.

00:48:34:02 – 00:48:56:15
Joshua Donohue
I especially felt for the Japanese Americans whose lives were really, again, completely upturned and again, and the events that occurred during Pearl Harbor and after you really notice it in Tora Bora tours, where the attack is going on, it’s almost over. And you see that one scene where there was an officer has that interaction. He was that male and with that young Japanese boy.

00:48:56:19 – 00:49:25:19
Joshua Donohue
And it gives him that real stern kind of like, you know, just, you know, just that his face is just all contorted. And the young boys just looking at him like just, you know, you can kind of paralyzed. But, you know, for civilians, it was, a scary situation and, a number that the majority of the civilians who were killed that morning are actually not killed by Japanese bombs were bullets, but by American shells that are being fired from Pearl Harbor.

00:49:25:23 – 00:49:57:11
Joshua Donohue
They’re not exploding in the air. They’re continuing to arc until they land. And many of those shells land in Honolulu and surrounding areas. So there’s about I would say, there was a one, person who did some research on and said it was about 57 or so impact sites in and around the city area. That again, you know, the stories of civilians who are, watching the attack, the planes or they’re standing outside and all of a sudden an explosion happens right down the street.

00:49:57:18 – 00:50:19:12
Joshua Donohue
And, you know, there was one where, there was a Packard that was driving was for, civilians inside of it. And a navy shell landed right next to it, and it just blew the car apart and killed all four of the civilians inside of it. Not only that, a piece of the shrapnel from that explosion kill the young girl who was standing on her front porch, watching it happen with her family.

00:50:19:15 – 00:50:44:16
Joshua Donohue
Her family doesn’t realize what happened to get her inside, and she just, you know, dies right there. So, Yeah, it’s for the civilians again. The Japanese aren’t targeting them. But there are instances. I mean, I even talk about, you know, look at, Ken Taylor and George Welch, the two P-40 pilots, as they’re driving from Wheeler to to Holly Eva field, which is on the North Shore where they get their planes, they’re strafed by Japanese planes.

00:50:44:19 – 00:51:08:04
Joshua Donohue
Colonel Claude Larkin, who’s the CEO. Whatever field he’s dragging from Honolulu to the base, he has the ditch his car twice because planes are strafing him all the way around. And the car still running. He’s lying in the ditch, waiting for the planes to pass away. Perhaps over, I should say so. The. You know, whether it be military, civilian, you know, if it was, you’re in a vehicle and you’re moving, you know, it was a dangerous place to be that morning.

00:51:08:06 – 00:51:26:21
Dan LeFebvre
Well, you mentioned something. They’re saying that that they weren’t targeting civilians. And, if we go to 1953 In harm’s Way, starring John Wayne and Kirk Douglas, when we see the first wave of Japanese planes attacking, part of the plot point finds Kirk Douglas, his wife, played by Barbara Bush, having an affair on the beach when the attack starts.

00:51:26:23 – 00:51:44:18
Dan LeFebvre
And then. But from the movie’s perspective, it’s obvious this was a key part of the plot. But as as I watched when I was watching, that is kind of like, well, from the Japanese pilot’s perspective, they’re just strafing it around a man and woman on the beach. So from their point of view, they’re just to civilians, but they’re clearly targeted because there’s nobody else around on the beach.

00:51:44:25 – 00:51:55:22
Dan LeFebvre
Otherwise it just be an empty beach and planes are shooting at them. So it’s not really a strategic military target. So would it be correct to say, yeah, the that there were no civilian targets that morning.

00:51:55:24 – 00:52:15:09
Joshua Donohue
Yeah. That’s correct. And there was you know, there were the civilians were really in the line of fire that morning, but they weren’t quote unquote targeted. But that didn’t stop a few of the pilots from attacking civilian areas. You know, out of 353 planes used that morning, you can expect every single one of them is just going to avoid civilians.

00:52:15:09 – 00:52:44:29
Joshua Donohue
It was the temptation to see a large kind of juicy target, whether it be, you know, a, you know, some of the plantations that were actually attacked ever being one of them right outside the base gates. So, some sources claim, that these were accidental. And ever feel, for example, just outside the base, one of the youngest victims of the attack, six year old, Yoko Lillian Oda was was the very last civilian to die from the attack.

00:52:44:29 – 00:53:23:11
Joshua Donohue
She passed away from a piece of shrapnel, which struck her in the head just outside of the ever field gate. She passed in February of 1942. So a few of the Japanese POWs likely saw, especially as I mentioned, the plantation, the sugar mills, which were located on these plantation villages, seeing those as targets of opportunity, one of the Marines outside the base, it ever was hit along with, I shouldn’t say that the, Marines, but one of the, civilians, killed on the town of Hawaii who it was, two sugar plantations was, the one there in the one it ever.

00:53:23:15 – 00:53:46:18
Joshua Donohue
So another thing to consider here is that there were also civilian workers in and around the epicenter of the attack. So there were civilians killed or wounded just due to them really being at the wrong place, at the wrong time. So the again, as I mentioned, the commanding officer ever, Lieutenant Colonel Claude Larkin, was driving his 1930 Plymouth, from his home to ever and again had to ditch his car on two occasions.

00:53:46:24 – 00:54:10:04
Joshua Donohue
And again, you mentioned that George Welch and Ken Taylor, pilot, the two three P-40 pilots were nearly killed as they make their way up to Oahu’s North Shore. So, as I mentioned earlier, there, between 49 and other estimates have 68 civilians who lost their lives during the attack. Most of the casualties, again, were caused by, falling anti-aircraft shells that were fired by the ships in the, the guns of Pearl Harbor.

00:54:10:06 – 00:54:45:25
Joshua Donohue
The fuzes on the shells were a time that properly so instead of exploding in the air at a predetermined altitude, they would simply continue to arc into the city of Oahu and other residential areas. And again, some of them would just explode on impact. So, as I mentioned, that one, where the, the the scene with the Packard, is, destroyed in, in Pearl Harbor, the 2001 will be again, one of those scenes that gets a little bit carried away where they’re just flying raw and just strafing people, just, you know, just in cold blood.

00:54:45:27 – 00:55:11:06
Joshua Donohue
That’s not really what’s going on. So, yeah, there’s there’s another instance where, and this is, this is quite, quite, striking, jutsu Ohara Saki, who is a 48 year old Japanese American who ran a restaurant in Honolulu on the morning of the attack. He was at his diner with his family when a five inch shell from a navy, ship explode, came to the window and exploded.

00:55:11:09 – 00:55:19:17
Joshua Donohue
Harris Sakai was killed instantly, as were his three children, 14 year old cousin and seven young men who just happened to be eating breakfast that morning.

00:55:19:19 – 00:55:41:03
Dan LeFebvre
Wow, wow. I mean, I, I would assume and correct me if I’m wrong, but I would assume that with the anti-aircraft, the fuze is not being set correctly. And then, of course, shooting towards a populated area. I imagine a lot of that was just from the confusion of everything that was going on and rushing to get to shoot it, whatever you could basically.

00:55:41:03 – 00:56:00:11
Joshua Donohue
Yeah, because a lot of their ammunition was locked up. They had to go through, you know, you know, bust open, you know, at every field and other places that I read stories where, you know, they’re basically trying to scramble to get these guns prepped and loaded. It’s a multi-person effort to get especially the larger caliber guns, that they have to fire it.

00:56:00:12 – 00:56:31:18
Joshua Donohue
It’s not just one person out there you’re doing this. All in all, it’s a it’s a time consuming process. And in that process, you’re probably not thinking, oh, yeah, let’s just try to maybe have the fuze explode and it would a preset altitude and the Japanese planes are going to be they’re just shooting blindly. And this would happen really throughout the attack, especially as we see with some of the military planes coming in, the planes from the enterprise and other P-40s and that are coming in and around, they’re taking you off trying to find the Japanese planes.

00:56:31:21 – 00:56:44:05
Joshua Donohue
They’re now being shot at by their own gunners on the ground because there’s stur, you know, there’s there’s such a frenzy of confusion and trigger happy gunners on the ground. They see something flying. They’re going to shoot first and ask questions later.

00:56:44:07 – 00:57:10:10
Dan LeFebvre
It’s Yeah. I mean, it’s interesting. I mean, it goes from assuming that the planes that are flying over must be doing some drill, and then all of a sudden it becomes anything flying in the air is a target. It must be the enemy. It’s just that that flip, that the chaos of war, I mean, I can, I can thankfully, I’ve never been in that situation, but I can I can understand how that, confusion is just everywhere and rampant.

00:57:10:15 – 00:57:29:27
Joshua Donohue
Yeah. And it kind of was just, you know, the streets of Honolulu were, you know, there were there were fires. There were they were having the civilians there. Again. It must have been terrifying. And they’re not thinking, of course, at the time. Oh, these are probably shells coming from Pearl Harbor, they think, and this is the Japanese trapping and bombs and killing, you know, innocent civilians.

00:57:29:27 – 00:57:54:07
Joshua Donohue
So thinking about that and and what happens, as I mentioned, after, you know, the fallout, especially for Japanese Americans who are living in Hawaii and, of course, on the West Coast and everything that happens with, you know, later on in World War two with the Japanese internment camps. And there’s that overall anti-Japanese sentiment. It’s starting to really build, I think of, Grace to Kuno.

00:57:54:09 – 00:58:13:08
Joshua Donohue
I believe her name was she was a student at Berkeley, in California when the attack happened. And she was going to, to a school that I get off the bus that morning. And the radio was just given the all the information about Pearl Harbor. And she’s looking around her, and everyone’s looking right at her and staring here and giving that that look, I was telling you, all extraterritorial.

00:58:13:15 – 00:58:23:14
Joshua Donohue
It was just instant. Like, all of a sudden, you know, everyone’s. It’s just the whole climate changes, literally with those, those, you know, in a matter of a few hours.

00:58:23:16 – 00:58:44:11
Dan LeFebvre
Well, one of the common themes in movies about Pearl Harbor is how the attack rallied American morale in support of joining World War two. Perhaps the most famous movie quote is at the end of Tora tour Tora! When Admiral Yamamoto says, I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.

00:58:44:13 – 00:59:02:18
Dan LeFebvre
Of course, as we’ve talked about a lot today, the movies mostly cover the attack at Pearl itself instead of the things going on elsewhere that we talked about. You know, like with Wake Island and such. But back in 1941, was there a lot of coverage for any of the other attacks that we’ve talked about today outside the base at Pearl itself?

00:59:02:21 – 00:59:24:28
Joshua Donohue
Yeah. And it’s it’s you think about, you know, the information, how quickly we get it nowadays. So we haven’t really the palm of our hand just was not the case back then. Americans in those days were getting their information via newspaper, radio or the newsreels that they would see being shown at local movie theaters. And newsreels would be shown before the film started.

00:59:24:28 – 00:59:49:19
Joshua Donohue
So American audiences were getting, you know, all the information that, you know, that was available to them at the time. So they’re getting an actual visual, not just, you know, hearing it and reading in the newspaper. So, as I mentioned, they were, you know, audiences were getting nothing but bad news from what was going on between Japan’s offensive, which we talked about earlier, all of their operations in the Pacific, but also what’s going on in Europe as well.

00:59:49:22 – 01:00:09:22
Joshua Donohue
And it unlike the professional armies of Germany and Japan, the US armed forces were completely unprepared to fight a major war. I think they said in 1940 the US Army was smaller than that of Romania and of about 174,000 men in uniform. I think they said there were more men in the NYPD than there were in the Marine Corps.

01:00:09:25 – 01:00:33:07
Joshua Donohue
So, the Army still own tens of thousands of cavalry horses. And so, you know, the war was so far away, it simply didn’t occur to most Americans that such an attack was even possible. And in the events of the outside world, which is seemingly impossibly far away, especially due to the fact that the country was still in the midst of a Great Depression and were now just trying to pull itself out of it.

01:00:33:09 – 01:00:50:21
Joshua Donohue
The country that really been hit hard, especially in the Midwest and a lot of the farming areas. So Americans would go to movie theaters where, again, they’d see these newsreels because you’d see what was going on with, you know, with Hitler coming to power. Then you can fast forward to, you know, the civil war in Spain in 1936.

01:00:50:21 – 01:01:20:11
Joshua Donohue
We see, you know, civilians being attacked and then the Nazis seizing Czechoslovakia in 1938, invading Poland in 1939 and officially starting the Second World War from that event, when both England and France would declare war on Germany. Then you, of course, would have the fall of France. You you you’d you’d see the news with Dunkirk, for example, with the massive retreat of the forces of the British and the French there, Denmark, Norway, Holland fell, Belgium was crushed.

01:01:20:13 – 01:01:46:11
Joshua Donohue
Fans of France would fall in 1940. Britain would fall under attack during the Blitz in 1840, British cities at Cannes being attacked relentlessly by the, the air, by German warplanes and other, you know, terror weapons like the V-1. And you’ll American we had reporters. Edward R Murrow was in London reporting on these attacks and giving Americans a real just an awful glimpse of what was going on.

01:01:46:18 – 01:02:08:22
Joshua Donohue
So the overall feeling in the country at that point was similar to that of the of the, you know, before the First World War, that was isolationism. You know, Americans were hoping that the country could stay out of the war. And from December 1941 until June, I would say, of 1942, Americans were getting nothing but bad news coverage, in all, in every way, shape or form.

01:02:08:24 – 01:02:27:02
Joshua Donohue
And once Pearl Harbor happens, you can. It really makes the news more and more urgent. It can. The Japanese were on the offensive in the Pacific. The Americans were starting to make some small gains in the interim. Again, you had the fight at wake that happens. And that kind of bolsters, America’s, you know, spirits a little bit.

01:02:27:08 – 01:02:54:16
Joshua Donohue
But once the island was surrendered, it was again, once, once again, back to a low point. But as you start to see, over time, you know, the Americans begin to turn the tide. The you, of course, have the, Doolittle raid on April of 1942, which again, is not a is depicted in, torture in, 2001 Michael Bay film, you know.

01:02:54:16 – 01:02:57:18
Joshua Donohue
Yeah, yeah.

01:02:57:20 – 01:03:00:04
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. It’s all you need to say on that one, I guess. Yeah, yeah.

01:03:00:06 – 01:03:05:27
Joshua Donohue
And I there’s there’s this there’s some liberties that were taken.

01:03:06:00 – 01:03:07:12
Dan LeFebvre
That’s a nice way to put it. Yeah.

01:03:07:15 – 01:03:32:16
Joshua Donohue
But, you know, but over time in really this, you have to sort of, you know, Americans start to see the gains that we’re making. You know, the Doolittle Raid as we the first major event that you have, the battle of the Coral Sea in May of 1942, which is really a some people would say a draw, a tactical victory for the Japanese, but more of a, you know, a sense of America’s navy is beginning to catch up to the Japanese.

01:03:32:16 – 01:03:53:09
Joshua Donohue
We lose a carrier. The Japanese, would lose, a carrier as well. And once you get to the Battle of Midway, which takes place in June of 1942, as we see in that and that film, again, we we, we have picked ourselves back up again. We are again using intelligence, breaking the Japanese code. We know where they’re going to be.

01:03:53:15 – 01:04:11:22
Joshua Donohue
You know, we have the proper people in place, intelligence gathering. You have, you know, Admiral Nimitz out there, you have a Bull Halsey at you have some great admirals out there who are again, going to take what’s left of the US Navy after the attack and bring it to the Japanese. And of course, we see what happens at midway.

01:04:11:22 – 01:04:23:08
Joshua Donohue
And, again, it’s it’s the decisive battle of the Pacific, I believe in the Pacific theater from the at that point in time and from really from that point on, the Japanese would never really recover.

01:04:23:11 – 01:04:42:20
Dan LeFebvre
Well, speaking of midway, the movie at least, a common theme that we see in a lot of movies about the attack at Pearl is how it ties into other battles after it, like in In Midway after the attack at Pearl is is at the beginning of that movie, then it obviously covers the Battle of Midway, the 1960 Japanese film storm of the Pacific does the same thing.

01:04:42:22 – 01:05:04:17
Dan LeFebvre
2001 Pearl Harbor you talked about, goes from the attack of Pearl to the Doolittle Raid. Interestingly, the main characters in those movies seem to also take part in the other battles. Correct me if I’m wrong, I’m pretty sure Ben Affleck and Josh Hartnett characters in Pearl Harbor are fictional. Yeah, we still see them as pilots during the attack at Pearl and then going on to take part in the Doolittle Raid in 2019.

01:05:04:17 – 01:05:23:24
Dan LeFebvre
Midway, we see pilots like Dick Bast and Clarence Dickinson taking part in the Battle of Midway after having lived through the attack at Pearl. So the impression that I get from the movies is that many of the American pilots who survived Pearl Harbor went on to some of America’s most decisive naval and air battles later on in the war.

01:05:23:26 – 01:05:27:21
Dan LeFebvre
Is there any truth to that concept? The movie seems to suggest so.

01:05:27:21 – 01:05:57:15
Joshua Donohue
To go back to the 2001 film, the characters played by Ben Affleck and Josh Hartnett, they’re really in that film. Are loosely based on George Welch and Ken Taylor, the pilots, you see that they’re actually portrayed as they are in Tora, our Torturer. And, you know, we’ll get into that in a moment. So those, the actions of those P-40 pilots, again, as I mentioned, that happened there, that that particular film, as I mentioned, offers the most accurate portrayal of their actions.

01:05:57:15 – 01:06:15:18
Joshua Donohue
So one thing to note is that neither pilot took part in the Doolittle Raid, as we see later on happening in the film with, you know, Affleck and, you know, Josh Hartnett piloting the B20 fives with, you know, Alec Baldwin and who was playing Jimmy Doolittle in the in the famous raid.

01:06:15:18 – 01:06:18:09
Dan LeFebvre
And they’re all planes are the same. You can just pilot. Yeah.

01:06:18:11 – 01:06:36:00
Joshua Donohue
Yeah, yeah, no big deal. Just we’re just going to go on to the carrier getting the planes and just here you go. But some of the, some of the, the story of that was in the film that you see is actually true. They had to lighten the load as much as possible, right down to, you know, having broom handles for aircraft.

01:06:36:04 – 01:06:56:11
Joshua Donohue
You know, any aircraft, you know, 50 caliber machine guns, I guess you could say. But as far as the the the real story of the pilots of George Welch, one of the, you know, the P-40 pilots who got up in the air and helps you down a number of Japanese planes that morning, he would actually go on to earn, the Distinguished Service Cross for his actions on December 7th.

01:06:56:13 – 01:07:21:26
Joshua Donohue
He would later go on to claim 16 victories in 348 combat missions. Malaria would actually end his war. He would later be killed in 1953, after his, aircraft. I believe he was flying a F-100 Super Saber. Would disintegrate, during a test. So a lot of these abuses, said I, Chuck Yeager, was another good example.

01:07:21:28 – 01:07:44:16
Joshua Donohue
Would go on to fly, you know, test out some of, you know, America’s newest, jet fighter planes. So Welch’s wingman and friend, Kenneth Taylor, he would go on to fight in the skies over Guadalcanal. He was later wounded in a Japanese airstrike on Henderson Field in 1943. He was able to down two more aircraft while he was stationed there, which would bring him to ace status.

01:07:44:19 – 01:08:09:16
Joshua Donohue
Another aviator who gained fame after the Pearl Harbor attack was a guy named Phil Rasmussen. He earned the name the Pajama pilot. He was literally in his pajamas when the attack happened. He jumped into his P 36 fighter and fought Japanese aircraft over Kaneohe Bay, where the naval air station was under attack. I think when he landed, they counted like 500 holes in his airplane.

01:08:09:22 – 01:08:12:29
Joshua Donohue
The tail wheel was shot away. I mean, how he was able to get.

01:08:12:29 – 01:08:14:01
Dan LeFebvre
He still landed?

01:08:14:03 – 01:08:40:28
Joshua Donohue
Yes. He somehow landed, at Wheeler Field. So after shooting down one plane, he was attacked by two more zeros, more shells and, 20 millimeter cannons and go! Fire blew away the canopy, destroyed his radio, severed the hydraulic lines, the water cable. He would sort you seek refuge in the cloud bank and begin flying back towards Wheeler and again, counting more than 500 bullet holes.

01:08:41:04 – 01:09:04:24
Joshua Donohue
And he is actually in the Air Force Museum. There is a, a p 36. That is, the paint scheme is just like his, like a silver. And as the 86 on the side and, Yeah. The other pilots you mentioned, Dick best and Clarence Dickinson, in midway. That’s more of an actual, you know, accurate portrayal of what happens.

01:09:04:24 – 01:09:42:26
Joshua Donohue
Dickinson’s plane is shot down by a Japanese zero as he is flying his SBD Dauntless from the Enterprise to Oahu. So his wingman was shot down. His plane was taking fire. He bailed out his rear gunner, William Miller, who had already claimed one zero, was presumably killed by, a second one. And he went down, with the plane, actually at every field, and number, including Clark, and witnessed this, they start to see, planes, Japanese planes and American planes, you know, kind of, you know, going into the skies just low over the over the field, a, I believe Revelle and a Dauntless, one of the Dauntless from the

01:09:42:26 – 01:10:15:28
Joshua Donohue
enterprise collide and crash right outside of Ever field, and going on to, the midway battle. You have, Clarence Dickenson, landing a bomb on the deck of the Kaga during the Battle of Midway. He would later earn three Navy Crosses, the first to do so, along with fellow aviator Lieutenant Noel Gaylor. So, many of the pilots has, you know, we mentioned especially Welch and Taylor, not taking place in the Doolittle raid, but they would again go on and fly, you know, missions and serve with distinction.

01:10:16:00 – 01:10:23:09
Dan LeFebvre
I just assume the, the uniform for pilots after that would just be pajamas, right? I mean, because apparently that’s what it takes to.

01:10:23:11 – 01:10:43:13
Joshua Donohue
Well, Welch, Welch and Taylor when they were tuxedo. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, yeah, they were, they were, they were partying the night before, you know, that just that’s kind of how, when Affleck and, Josh Hartnett were waking up from that, you know, they were fighting each other, drinking the night before. So it is similar to the circumstances of what Welch and Taylor did, you know, had to deal with that morning.

01:10:43:17 – 01:10:49:22
Joshua Donohue
And they. Yes, they were in their, their tuxedo, pants and whatever they else they had on from the night before.

01:10:49:22 – 01:10:58:28
Dan LeFebvre
Wow, wow. I guess it just goes to show, I mean, it was such a surprise. And then again, at being so early in the morning on a Sunday, I mean, yeah, you’d expect to sleep in.

01:10:59:00 – 01:11:02:10
Joshua Donohue
Exactly. You know, you expect to be talking about the Japanese. That’s.

01:11:02:12 – 01:11:04:13
Dan LeFebvre
Which is probably why they did it then.

01:11:04:18 – 01:11:06:10
Joshua Donohue
Yes. But,

01:11:06:12 – 01:11:11:01
Dan LeFebvre
Are you open to doing, a hypothetical what if type of question from a movie we haven’t talked about yet?

01:11:11:02 – 01:11:12:03
Joshua Donohue
Yeah, let’s do it.

01:11:12:06 – 01:11:37:12
Dan LeFebvre
The storyline of 1980s The Final Countdown follows the nuclear powered USS Nimitz as it goes through a storm that takes them back in time to December 6th, 1941, and they have the option to stop the attack before it happens. Ultimately, the time traveling storm come back before they’re able to do that. But let’s say the US did have a nuclear powered carrier like USS Nimitz during the attack.

01:11:37:15 – 01:11:47:26
Dan LeFebvre
Would that have been enough firepower to stop the attack, and if so, how do you think stopping the attack would have changed the course of history?

01:11:47:29 – 01:12:20:03
Joshua Donohue
That’s a good question. And, it would be interesting to see in one of those sort of war game simulations, those scenarios that play out, that they put. What would the most likely outcome of this type of, you know, hypothetical, what if scenario B, so if hypothetically, we you know, we can we had all of the advanced tech say if it’s just a carrier minus the task force, because especially if it’s a carrier and it’s task force, you’re going to wipe out that that opposing force pretty much a no problem at all.

01:12:20:03 – 01:12:41:07
Joshua Donohue
Because just a just based on your reach alone. Just what missile technology, how far it had come. So you could theoretically wipe out, I would say an entire Japanese task force with a few pursues and strikes, especially with guided missiles, advanced and advanced radar systems by this time. So you could really, you know, reach out and touch the enemy without them even knowing you’re there.

01:12:41:07 – 01:13:11:15
Joshua Donohue
You to the miles away. And again, missiles are starting to hit your ships and your the your aviators can’t land. You know, you’re going to lose all your air, your air support again. You’re going to attack the support ships as well. So I believe especially the biggest difference from the end of the Second World War, if you think about it, were you really have until it going up to the 1980s and the advances and guidance systems, you know, targeting systems and ordnance and things like that, things we’ve done with trial and error.

01:13:11:15 – 01:13:33:05
Joshua Donohue
You even had, drones in World War Two. Most people don’t realize that there’s actually a famous picture of Marilyn Monroe building a drone, I think, in Burbank, in the 19, 1944, I believe. So they were already experimenting with, you know, unmanned planes, guided weapons systems were already being, you know, like the Germans. I know we were very active with that.

01:13:33:10 – 01:14:04:02
Joshua Donohue
So you would need hundreds, in some cases, thousands of bombers on a single mission using these sort of unguided bombs, which is simply falling out of your bomb bay. You’re not guiding this ordnance to Earth. They’re just falling and causing untold casualties, especially in civilian areas, which, you know, of course, we find out later on, you know, that, the bomb damage assessment is, again, it’s considerable because you really wanted to, you know, have a precision strike.

01:14:04:07 – 01:14:42:06
Joshua Donohue
But when you’re putting up this many bombers at once and trying to drop, you know, thousands and thousands of tons of, you know, ordnance on a target, you there were times where they wouldn’t even be successful. It’s bad weather if they’re using smoke screens on the ground. And this would this would happen throughout the war with advanced systems on the, you know, with the planes that we have especially it’s maybe say go to 1984, 85 around that time and say you what runs how the movie was out, you had the F-14 Tomcat, you had the A-6 intruder, you have the, the E2, C Hawkeye, which with its radar dome, could detect threats from hundreds and

01:14:42:06 – 01:15:14:17
Joshua Donohue
thousands of miles away. So you could again reach out and hit the enemy. They would never even know you were there. And if it was it for it to be decisive, weapon and changed the course of the war. Yeah, I got to believe, you know, and again, in a hypothetical sense, that with the advancements that had been made really from the beginning of, you know, World War II to all the way through to the mid 1980s, and again by that time also, it was, you know, the 1980s were still like those last Cold War years.

01:15:14:24 – 01:15:39:00
Joshua Donohue
You know, the US military’s undergoing, you know, just a complete, you know, overhaul from, you know, the, from the end of the Vietnam War with new planes, you know, new bombs, new, you know, new theories, all of these things were just, you know, are always constantly changing and being upgraded, improved. So, hypothetically. Yeah, I think it could have been a decisive, decisive, outcome.

01:15:39:02 – 01:15:41:21
Dan LeFebvre
It would switch the surprise to being on the other side.

01:15:41:25 – 01:15:47:14
Joshua Donohue
Exactly. Yes. Yeah. Flipping that, flipping the script and flipping the tables on that literally.

01:15:47:16 – 01:16:05:19
Dan LeFebvre
Well, thank you so much for coming on to cover a lot of the things that we don’t see in the movies about the attack on Pearl Harbor. For anyone wanting to learn about another little known piece of history, you have a fantastic new article about the embattled Marines Air Station. Eva almost pronounced that you are, It takes a.

01:16:05:19 – 01:16:05:26
Joshua Donohue
Bit.

01:16:06:03 – 01:16:18:07
Dan LeFebvre
It takes a bit. I’ve got that linked in the show notes for everyone watching this to check that out. And while they do that, what’s something that you learned? One writing that article that might surprise someone who has only seen the movies about Pearl Harbor?

01:16:18:09 – 01:16:38:11
Joshua Donohue
There were, you know, once you start to get down to, you know, the individual stories. And when I was researching, I, I’d done quite a bit of research, as I do for all my written projects. I like to know that the little stories, the things you don’t normally hear about, you know, the things that were going on in Honolulu with the civilians were dealing with during the attack.

01:16:38:13 – 01:17:04:11
Joshua Donohue
One particular individual, and this took place at every field, was a marine who actually lost his life at the hands of his, his fellow Marines. His name is William Edward. Lou Sean. He was a marine, who was stationed at ever that morning. And there have been, many stories about and, about what really happened.

01:17:04:11 – 01:17:27:03
Joshua Donohue
There were, eyewitnesses who were there, you know, inside the base. Outside the base, from what, I found out, this particular marine that once the attack started to happen, the base starting to be hit. If he had maybe upset someone, if he had, you know, there would have been, you know, who knows what really happened.

01:17:27:06 – 01:17:54:22
Joshua Donohue
But from what, I read and researched, he was. They tried to apprehend him for whatever reason they thought he was helping the enemy. I’ve heard people say it was because of his German last name. His parents were German. That that had something to do with it. He was trying to help the Japanese. And this is kind of ridiculous, this story that he was running out into the cane fields, burning arrows into the cane field to help direct the Japanese planes towards ever.

01:17:54:25 – 01:18:23:22
Joshua Donohue
That’s probably not going to happen. But, what happens is he eventually, finds a weapon and the marine, his fellow Marines, and they go into a shootout towards the entrance of the base. Lushan is eventually killed as believe. What happens is they send a car, literally, like almost. This is something that kind of a Dick Tracy comic there in the back of the like a like a Packard with a Tommy gun, you know, out the window at them.

01:18:23:22 – 01:18:53:09
Joshua Donohue
And the one of the one of the, Marines who was there was Albert Caselli was one of the Marines who took part in the actual, the killing of Lucia and says he was filled with so many holes, we had no idea which one was the one that killed them. So that I looked into that and a solution was buried at a, a military cemetery, which in even, Claude Larkin Ebsco makes referenced in his report that there was one exception.

01:18:53:15 – 01:19:18:06
Joshua Donohue
Everybody else fought hard. And all this except with one exception, basically Lushan. And it’s not really known the circumstances of. So what happens is it was it it was he trying to collaborate that we did. We didn’t really get the full picture of what happened. I looked later on and it said that he was cleared of all wrongdoing and again, was, you know, it was, you know, buried in the military cemetery.

01:19:18:06 – 01:19:49:18
Joshua Donohue
So we don’t really we know, but we don’t know, kind of what happened in that in that case, another thing that people may not realize is that there was a second attack on Pearl Harbor. This takes place in March of 1942, and what’s known as operation K, the Japanese will send two, colonies a k Emily flying boats filled with bombs to try and hit Pearl Harbor at night, to try and disrupt the salvage and, the repairs going on there.

01:19:49:20 – 01:20:13:00
Joshua Donohue
They are unsuccessful. Oahu was under a total blackout, which proves effective. The bombs land either in the Pacific Ocean or on the side of a an extinct volcano. I think there was, I think Roosevelt High School. I think the windows were blown out or something like that, but they don’t get even close to their intended target. So kind of little stories that you find out as you’re doing your research, it’s it’s pretty interesting stuff.

01:20:13:03 – 01:20:15:28
Dan LeFebvre
Not so much a surprise anymore in 1942.

01:20:15:29 – 01:20:25:00
Joshua Donohue
Exactly. We were ready. We’re we’re ready this time. Or they actually had radar. They they believe the radar operators this time around, unlike the first time around.

01:20:25:02 – 01:20:30:22
Dan LeFebvre
Well, I’ll make sure to add a link to that in the show notes. And, before we started recording, you mentioned some things that you’re working on now.

01:20:30:26 – 01:20:55:15
Joshua Donohue
Yeah. So I am currently working on the sort of the last, phases of finishing my article about my uncle who fought in Vietnam. He was with the 17th Cav, 198th Light Infantry Brigade, the 23rd of Macao. He fought, from August 1968 to August 1969. So it’s it’s going to be focusing on his time there.

01:20:55:17 – 01:21:13:27
Joshua Donohue
And although I’ve interviewed a bunch of the veterans who knew him and they just, you know, they all rave about him. He actually passed away, about ten years ago. So it’s definitely a personal story. He was somebody I admired and looked up to my whole life, and he never spoke of the war. You know, I never once asked him about it.

01:21:14:00 – 01:21:42:15
Joshua Donohue
And, you know, now, hearing about what, you know, all of his exploits and how well-respected he was amongst his men in Vietnam was just saying, look, I have to write this story. It’s just it’s just too good not to. I am also in the early phases of writing my first book. That is going to be about a soldier, John Hollar, Lieutenant John Hummel, who fought, during the Battle of Bataan when the Japanese invaded the Philippines.

01:21:42:18 – 01:21:58:01
Joshua Donohue
So he was with the 194th Tank Battalion. And it’s about his story. And, it’s it’s remarkable. I was reading through his memoirs and the some of the stuff that I read, I was like, I have to tell this story. It’s just just too good not to.

01:21:58:04 – 01:22:07:26
Dan LeFebvre
Wow, I can’t wait for those. And for anybody watching this, check the show notes, because as soon as those are available, I will make sure to add those in there. But the Iva article is available right now. Thanks again so much for your time.

01:22:07:26 – 01:22:17:08
Joshua Donohue
Josh, thank you so much for having me on. Appreciate it.

01:22:17:11 – 01:22:35:23
Dan LeFebvre
This episode is based on a true story was produced by Dan the Fab. Thank you once again to Joshua Donohue for helping us learn the things we don’t get to see in the movies about Pearl Harbor happened in the show. Notes. To find a link to Josh’s latest work as of this recording, that is his article entitled Embattled Marines at Air Station Iva.

01:22:35:25 – 01:22:55:11
Dan LeFebvre
We talked about that throughout this episode, but if you’re catching this episode later, Josh talked about some of the things that he’s working on right now as of this recording. So as soon as those are available, I’ll be adding those to the show notes as well. As always, you can find the links to everything over at. Based on a True Story podcast.com/379.

01:22:55:14 – 01:23:20:10
Dan LeFebvre
Okay, now it’s time for the answer to our two tours and a live game from the beginning of the episode. And as a quick refresher, here are the two truths and one lie again. Number one, Wake Island was attacked just a few hours after receiving word of the attack on Pearl Harbor. Number two Phil Rasmussen went up in his 36 wearing pajamas and landed with about 500 bullet holes in his plane.

01:23:20:12 – 01:23:33:07
Dan LeFebvre
Number three. In addition to military targets, the Japanese attacked numerous civilian targets around Pearl Harbor. Did you figure out which one is a lie? I’ve got the answer in the envelope, so let’s open that up.

01:23:33:09 – 01:23:54:06
Dan LeFebvre
And the lie is number three. As we learned from Josh, there were not any civilian targets around Pearl Harbor. But that’s not to say that there weren’t civilian casualties. Josh told us stories of some of those civilians caught at the wrong place at the wrong time. And we also learned that many of the civilian deaths were actually caused by friendly fire and the chaos of the surprise attack.

01:23:54:06 – 01:24:15:21
Dan LeFebvre
Anti-Aircraft rounds shot by Americans in the harbor ended up landing in and around Honolulu. Thanks for sticking around to the end. If you’re watching the video version here, in a moment you’re going to see the credits roll, and if you want to get your name in the credits for the next video and on the website, you can learn how to become a base on a true story producer using the link in the description or over at based on a True Story podcast.

01:24:15:26 – 01:24:27:15
Dan LeFebvre
Combat support once again, that’s based on a true story podcast.com/support. Until next time. Thanks so much for spending your time with Josh and today, and I’ll chat with you again really soon.

00:00:02:06 – 00:00:28:21
Dan LeFebvre
Hello and welcome to Based on a True Story, the podcast that compares your favorite Hollywood movies with history. Today we’ll be learning about the new movie called Nuremberg, directed by James Vanderbilt. Nuremberg is set during the Nuremberg trials in the wake of World War Two. In the movie, we see Michael Shannon’s version of justice Robert Jackson as a main driver behind the trial in an attempt to force the Nazi leadership to answer for their crimes during the war.

00:00:28:24 – 00:00:47:17
Dan LeFebvre
The movie focuses mostly on Russell Crowe’s version of Hermann Goering, who was one of the most powerful figures in the Nazi Party. And that brings us to one of the other main characters in the movie. Rami Malik’s version of Doctor Douglas Kelly. In the movie, Doctor Kelly is tasked with assessing the mental competence of Goering and other Nazis to stand trial.

00:00:47:20 – 00:01:04:20
Dan LeFebvre
To help us unravel the true story behind the movie today we’ll be talking with none other than Jack ally. Jack is the author of the book that they used as a basis for the movie. That book is called The Nazi and the psychiatrist. And you can find a link in the show notes to pick up your own copy right now.

00:01:04:23 – 00:01:23:11
Dan LeFebvre
But before we dive in, just a quick heads up. As of this recording, Nuremberg is still playing in the theaters and if you’ve listened to any based on a true story episodes before, you know that we can’t really dig into the historical accuracy without getting into the movie’s plot. So consider this your spoiler alert. Okay, now let’s set up our game for this episode.

00:01:23:12 – 00:01:39:12
Dan LeFebvre
Now, if you are new to the show, since based on a true story is all about separating fact from fiction in the movies, you’ll get to practice your skills at separating fact from fiction in this podcast episode with a game of two truths and a lie. So I’m about to give you three things that we’re going to talk about at some point throughout this episode.

00:01:39:14 – 00:02:00:12
Dan LeFebvre
Two of those are true, and one of them is just a lie. And your task is to see if you can figure out which one is the lie. Are you ready? Okay, here they are. Number one, Doctor Kelly was fired for talking to a newspaper reporter in Nuremberg. Number two, Doctor Kelly delivered letters from Hermann Goering to his family.

00:02:00:12 – 00:02:18:23
Dan LeFebvre
Like we see in the movie. Number three Doctor Kelly talked to growing more than any of the other Nazi prisoners in Nuremberg. Got them. Okay. Now, if you’re watching the video version of this, you can see I’m holding up an envelope. And this envelope has the answer inside. So we’ll open this up at the end of the episode to see if you got it right.

00:02:18:26 – 00:02:34:22
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Now it’s time to connect with Jack ally about the historical accuracy of Nuremberg.

00:02:34:24 – 00:02:57:10
Dan LeFebvre
My audience knows movies aren’t expected to be 100% factual, but some movies do better at adhering to history than others for a wide range of reasons. So I always like to start off by getting an overall sense for how well, movie does from a historical perspective. So with that in mind, what letter grade would you give the movie Nuremberg for its historical accuracy?

00:02:57:12 – 00:03:00:05
Jack El-Hai
I would give it an A minus eight.

00:03:00:12 – 00:03:01:24
Dan LeFebvre
That’s very good.

00:03:01:26 – 00:03:31:04
Jack El-Hai
It is very good, I think. I feel good about recommending Nuremberg to my friends because it is mostly historically accurate. There are a few variations from fact, but they’re mostly, unimportant points. The the main way in which Nuremberg differs from my book, The Nazi and the psychiatrist is in its focus. The movie Nuremberg covers about one year of time.

00:03:31:05 – 00:03:35:09
Jack El-Hai
My book covers about 45 years.

00:03:35:12 – 00:03:45:11
Dan LeFebvre
Well, that makes sense. I mean, especially, you know, in a movie, it just being a different format, different medium. There’s only so much you can do before really confusing the audience.

00:03:45:13 – 00:03:47:24
Jack El-Hai
Exactly, exactly.

00:03:47:26 – 00:04:09:01
Dan LeFebvre
Well, at the beginning of the movie, it it sets up the situation. It says it’s May 7th, 1945, the last day of war in Europe. Adolf Hitler is dead. The Nazi high command is in disarray. 70 million people are died across the globe. And then in the opening sequence of the movie, we see, black Mercedes with Nazi flags honking to get what appear to be refugees along the road to move out of the way.

00:04:09:03 – 00:04:33:21
Dan LeFebvre
And then some American soldiers nearby immediately jump to high alert when they see the car. They have their guns pointed at the car and it just stops. And the movie is very careful to not show the face of the people inside. Quite. Yet he just. The man in the back of the car tears off a white piece of cloth from a woman’s dress next to him, hands it to the driver, shows it to the soldiers, and then as he gets out from the backseat, the American soldiers recognize who it is.

00:04:33:22 – 00:04:43:27
Dan LeFebvre
Russell Crowe’s version of Hermann Goering, and he seems to just kind of drive up and surrender himself and his family to the Americans. Is that really how Goering was captured by the allies?

00:04:43:29 – 00:05:12:18
Jack El-Hai
Yes. That’s almost exactly how he was captured. He surrendered to American troops. And that very scene is in my book, although it’s not at the beginning of my book. And, I was really happy to see that scene in the book because it even includes, a joke. When Goering asks the American soldiers to unload his luggage, that did actually happen as well.

00:05:12:18 – 00:05:16:26
Jack El-Hai
And that was kept in the in the screenplay.

00:05:16:28 – 00:05:38:13
Dan LeFebvre
What would the soldiers have known him? I mean, assuming that I mean, just the car itself kind of lends itself to being an officer or something like that. But the soldiers immediately recognized him in the movie. I’m assuming then Goering was well known enough among just. I’m assuming those are just average soldiers.

00:05:38:15 – 00:06:01:01
Jack El-Hai
One of the soldiers recognizes him in the movie, and I, my impression from watching that scene in the film is that the others didn’t necessarily know who he was, so one, one was enough. And but I think that Goering was quite recognizable to people who, had been, following the ups and downs of the war.

00:06:01:01 – 00:06:09:05
Jack El-Hai
But that doesn’t mean, perhaps all U.S. soldiers were that aware of who the German leadership was.

00:06:09:08 – 00:06:33:12
Dan LeFebvre
Soon after, during his capture in the movie, were introduced to Justice Robert Jackson. He’s played by Michael Shannon, and according to the movie, Jackson is pushing for putting the Nazis on trial for their war crimes. But the problem with that, according to the movie, is that would require an international tribunal requiring judges from the four main allies the United States, France, Great Britain and the USSR.

00:06:33:14 – 00:06:51:24
Dan LeFebvre
And that’s never been done before. Looking back on the events of World War two through a historical lens, I think we can all agree that it’s pretty obvious the Nazis committed countless crimes against humanity. And so it would seem obvious that if the Nazis were put on trial, they’d be found guilty at least looking at it through a historical lens.

00:06:51:29 – 00:07:09:11
Dan LeFebvre
But the impression that I got while I was watching the movie was that a lot of the evidence that we know about now is only because it was made public during the trials. So before the trials began, it seems like nobody really knew which way they would go. There seem that could be a chance the Nazis might actually be set free.

00:07:09:13 – 00:07:23:00
Dan LeFebvre
Goring himself in the movie, he suggested that in years to come, people would look back on the trial as a farce. Can you give a little more historical context around what people thought of the authenticity of the trial at Nuremberg at that time?

00:07:23:03 – 00:07:58:12
Jack El-Hai
This kind of trial had never been attempted before. So it was an international tribunal. The four largest Allied powers, U.S., USSR, France and Great Britain, got together to to hold these men accountable and responsible for their crimes. Not all of those countries, as he suggested, were, initially on board. Winston Churchill in particular, thought that the German leaders should be lined up and shot without a trial.

00:07:58:19 – 00:08:33:21
Jack El-Hai
But interestingly, it was FDR and Joseph Stalin who convinced him otherwise, and they wanted a trial that would present all of the evidence. So that, they feared that if the German leaders were simply shot without a trial, no one would really know the extent of their crimes and their legacy could live on. And that goering’s dream that there would be statues of them all over Germany in 15 or 20 years would come true.

00:08:33:23 – 00:09:03:24
Jack El-Hai
So, and, in the course of, developing this trial, the prosecution team, which was very large, unearthed in a very short amount of time, huge masses of evidence, the as much as the, German government tried to cover its tracks and destroy, paper materials. They couldn’t there was so much they could not get at all or even come close.

00:09:03:27 – 00:09:58:08
Jack El-Hai
So there was, a gigantic amount of evidence against them. And, this part of the film, Nuremberg is where there is a deviation from my book, The Nazi in the psychiatrist’s. It’s not that this part giving the background to the trial is not factual. It it is largely. But, I didn’t cover it as extensively as other parts, other areas of the story that I was more interested in and in in particular, I did not follow the adventures of Justice Robert Jackson because, in my book, because his big moments, came after Douglas Kelly, a psychiatrist, had actually left Nuremberg, even though in the film he’s shown to be there.

00:09:58:10 – 00:10:16:28
Dan LeFebvre
I mean, that sounds like that could be a whole book by itself. Just talking about Jackson and that the way the trial is all set up and everything like that. But it sounds like they wanted to get a lot of it was to get the evidence out there was one of the big drivers for for doing the trial.

00:10:17:01 – 00:10:45:21
Jack El-Hai
Get it out there, not just among the people who would be attending the trial or listening to it on the radio or watching in newsreels, but, into the wider world for years and years so that the, the real legacy of the Nazi regime would not be mistaken and, and nullified. So that was a big part of the purpose of the trial.

00:10:45:23 – 00:11:03:25
Dan LeFebvre
That makes sense. And I would say that it work that we definitely got to learn what they were actually about. You mentioned his name. If we go back to the movie, Remy Malik’s version of Doctor Douglas Kelly enters the picture. Around this time, he’s tasked with inspecting the mental health of the Nazi prisoners in anticipation of the trial.

00:11:03:27 – 00:11:29:06
Dan LeFebvre
But according to the movie, it’s not just Goering, but the movie really kind of focuses on Goering and then three others doctor Robert Ley, he’s the chief of the German Labor Front, who spearheaded the Nazi slave labor program. Great Admiral Carl Donitz, the German Navy commander in chief, architect of the U-boat attacks. And then Julia Streicher, the, movie, says he’s Hitler’s director of propaganda and publisher of the national anti-Semitic paper called Der Sturmer.

00:11:29:09 – 00:11:49:23
Dan LeFebvre
Not to get too far ahead of the timeline in the movie, but then later on, the movie does mention, I think, 22 Nazis going on trial. So it seems like there’s more that the movie just doesn’t show. And the true story. Did Kelly focus on the main characters, those four main characters that the movie shows us, or was he tasked with inspecting all the Nazis going on trial at Nuremberg?

00:11:49:25 – 00:12:19:29
Jack El-Hai
Well, yes and no. Kelly examined and interviewed the entire group. So that was 22 members of the Nazi high command, and, he found Hermann Goering to be the most intriguing of the bunch. And so he spent more time with Goering then with any of the others. And in fact, he spent more time with Goering than with several of the others combined.

00:12:20:02 – 00:12:48:11
Jack El-Hai
So, the three that, you mentioned that are also shown in the movie, and there’s another one, too, Rudolf Hess, is given some playtime in the movie. These were important figures in the trial, but there were many other important figures that Kelly dealt with and maybe here, it might be a good time for me to mention that because you addressed his role, Kelly’s role there.

00:12:48:13 – 00:13:17:20
Jack El-Hai
He was, brought in by the tribunal to ensure that the defendants were mentally fit to stand trial in. This is a very low bar of fitness, mental fitness. So it means can they understand the charges? Do they know the difference between right and wrong? Can they participate in their own defense? And in Kelly’s opinion, all of them satisfied that requirement.

00:13:17:22 – 00:13:47:15
Jack El-Hai
But he was there among these men who were considered the arch criminals of the 20th century, all in one place together. And he saw it as a wonderful opportunity to do more. So he set up for himself a more ambitious project to determine whether they shared a common psychiatric disorder or what Kelly like to call a Nazi virus that, could account for their behavior.

00:13:47:17 – 00:13:54:21
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Yeah. So he’s going above and beyond to take advantage of all of them being in one location. It sounds like.

00:13:54:23 – 00:13:56:04
Jack El-Hai
That’s right.

00:13:56:06 – 00:14:13:21
Dan LeFebvre
What? You mentioned his name, and Rudolf Hess does end up coming in. He I think he arrived at the prison a little bit later, but the movie briefly mentioned his story. It talks about how he flew a plane to Scotland in 1941, tried to negotiate a truce with Britain and Germany so they could both team up to defeat the Soviet Union.

00:14:13:24 – 00:14:41:12
Dan LeFebvre
That doesn’t work. Hess was then in prison and then conveniently got hit with amnesia, where he couldn’t remember anything for years. Then, in February of 1945, he said that he was faking his amnesia the whole time. Then after I think the movie mentioned in July of 1945, after Germany collapsed, the amnesia returned. So now in the movie, Kelly tries to get Goring to help, to get Hess to talk, and Goering agrees to do this in exchange for Kelly getting letters to his wife and daughter.

00:14:41:12 – 00:14:49:12
Dan LeFebvre
And we’ll talk about those letters in a moment. But is the movie correct to set up this scenario of Goering helping Doctor Kelly to try to get has to talk?

00:14:49:15 – 00:15:19:01
Jack El-Hai
Absolutely. Goering was offended by Hess’s behavior because Hess, he probably was not suffering from amnesia. So Hess was pretending not to recognize Goering. And, during found this offensive. And during did assist with Kelly’s efforts to determine whether has really had amnesia or not, I think.

00:15:19:03 – 00:15:32:11
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, I think in the movie, when they first he first sees him, Hess does the Nazi salute and then later, Russell Crowe’s version of Goering points that out and he’s like, yeah, he’s faking because he recognized me the moment that he saw me.

00:15:32:13 – 00:15:37:15
Jack El-Hai
That’s right. And I believe that event also. Did that truly occur?

00:15:37:17 – 00:15:42:00
Dan LeFebvre
Wow, wow. Even little details like that. That’s it. Yeah. Makes for the A minus.

00:15:42:03 – 00:15:42:28
Jack El-Hai

00:15:43:00 – 00:16:03:12
Dan LeFebvre
Well I’m assuming that the Nazis who were helping Doctor Kelley with other Nazis like with Hess were only doing that to get something out of it themselves. Kind of like we see with, you know, Goering getting Kelly’s help with the personal letters. Were there any other scenarios of the other Nazis helping the allies interrogate other Nazis, or was Goring the only one?

00:16:03:15 – 00:16:37:24
Jack El-Hai
Not that I can recall. Goering was the only one who who provided substantive help, in that way. And there were some, like you mentioned, Admiral Donuts, who resisted, being of any help at all. So, enduring was amenable at least to doing this one thing to, try and figure out what was going on with Hess, because during wanted something in return.

00:16:37:26 – 00:17:00:25
Jack El-Hai
And, maybe we’re jumping the gun here a little bit, but, it would Goring wanted was a closer connection with his, family, his wife and daughter, who were outside of the prison, living on their own for a while. And then there was a time when Mrs. Goering was imprisoned and her daughter, was being kept in a convent.

00:17:00:25 – 00:17:09:17
Jack El-Hai
And during was very upset about all of this and wanted to open a line of communication with them.

00:17:09:19 – 00:17:27:17
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. No, that makes sense. So that’s what the movie shows. I was actually going to be my next question about those letters because, we see in the movie, Doctor Kelly is delivering letters from going to his wife, Emmy Goring, and their young daughter Edda. And throughout the movie, we see Kelly taking multiple trips to the Goering household.

00:17:27:17 – 00:17:48:28
Dan LeFebvre
He’s even invited into the home to watch Edda play the piano, which then he recounts back to Hermann when they get back to prison, and as this happens, it seems, according to the movie, that that Kelly is forming a bond with the Goring family. And then later in the movie you mentioned, getting arrested. We see or we don’t really see it happen necessarily, but we see the aftermath of Emmy and Eddie getting arrested.

00:17:49:03 – 00:18:03:11
Dan LeFebvre
And then Colonel Andrews asks Kelly how he knew where they’re hiding out. And that, to me, implies that these were not really sanctioned trips. So is it true that one of the ways Kelly got through to Hermann Goering was by secretly delivering these letters to his family?

00:18:03:13 – 00:18:34:15
Jack El-Hai
Yes, he he several times delivered letters to Emmy and Edda, and they they were not sanctioned. And the prison administration did not know that he was doing this. And the reason why I know these these letters were passed along is that copies of them exist, and they were among the trove of Douglas Kelly papers that I found.

00:18:34:17 – 00:18:42:14
Jack El-Hai
About 15 boxes of stuff that that led to me being interested in writing about this story.

00:18:42:17 – 00:18:55:26
Dan LeFebvre
Do we know if that was something that, I mean, I’m assuming Goehring kind of initiated that and then Doctor Kelly going along with it. I mean, I assume he would get in trouble if he was found out.

00:18:55:28 – 00:19:19:09
Jack El-Hai
Goering definitely initiated it. It didn’t occur to Kelly to try something like that. And if he had been caught doing it, he probably would have gotten into trouble. How serious a trouble? I’m not sure. He certainly would have been scolded, but I don’t think it would have been a huge blot on his military record.

00:19:19:12 – 00:19:42:06
Dan LeFebvre
Well, that speaks to the trust, I guess, would be that the word between Goering and Kelly. Because at least according to the movie, it seems like the allies don’t know where his family is. And once they find out, that’s when they arrest them. So I’m assuming then Goering knew that they would be in trouble or have potentially be arrested.

00:19:42:06 – 00:19:46:28
Dan LeFebvre
If Kelly gave up that information and trusted that he wouldn’t.

00:19:47:01 – 00:20:10:18
Jack El-Hai
Yes it would. Goring was preoccupied by the worry that his family was vulnerable to all kinds of hazards and dangers. And, Goring was a man of action, and for him to be confined in prison and unable to do anything to help was immensely frustrating to him.

00:20:10:21 – 00:20:27:01
Dan LeFebvre
That makes me wonder, because he he surrendered himself, did he assume that his position would be that he would be able to keep in contact with them and everything? And then all of a sudden he’s put in prison and obviously not able to.

00:20:27:03 – 00:21:07:28
Jack El-Hai
When Goering surrendered, he had a vision of how things would go after that. He was the, last living very top dog among the German leaders. Hitler, Himmler and gerbils had committed suicide and, during envisioned a time when he would, he saw himself as the statesman. So he would, resume the leadership of the German government and negotiate with the allies and lead Germany through this very difficult postwar time.

00:21:08:01 – 00:21:31:26
Jack El-Hai
But that plan, was nothing like what the allies were expecting to happen. And when, General Eisenhower, who was in charge in Europe in that time, heard about Goering’s expectation that he would be treated like a statesman, he said no way. And Goering was summarily shipped to prison.

00:21:31:28 – 00:21:52:11
Dan LeFebvre
Well, throughout the movie, we see numerous mentions of Remy Malik’s version of Doctor Kelly, saying that he believes Hermann Goering is an extreme narcissist. For example, there’s one scene when he’s talking to Justice Jackson and a JAG lawyer, Colonel John. Amen. I believe. And Kelly tells him that, above all things, the only thing that Hermann Goering cares about is Hermann Goering.

00:21:52:14 – 00:22:13:01
Dan LeFebvre
He doesn’t care about the Jews. He also doesn’t care if they die as Russell Crowe’s version of Goering says in the movie, the anti-Semitism helped gather followers, focus their emotions and give them someone to blame. So as I was watching that, the way I interpreted the movie was that basically during was willing to do anything and everything to rise to power himself.

00:22:13:07 – 00:22:23:24
Dan LeFebvre
You know, if that meant lying about his beliefs about Jews and murdering millions of people in the process. How old do you think the movie does showing Doctor Kelly’s analysis of growing?

00:22:23:26 – 00:22:56:24
Jack El-Hai
I think it does a great job of showing the ambiguity of Kelly’s position regarding Goering. You know, anything Goering said had to be taken with a huge block of salt because he was in prison. He was. He knew his life was at risk. But the film does accurately show what Goering told Kelly. How much Kelly believed it all.

00:22:56:27 – 00:23:27:12
Jack El-Hai
It is open to question. So I don’t think in in the evidence presented later at the trial shows that Goring was much more involved in the very harsh, overt anti-Semitic acts of the Nazi regime. And, it would be hard, after looking at that evidence, to say, well, this is just something that Hermann played along with so that he could take the opportunity to grasp power.

00:23:27:14 – 00:23:47:02
Jack El-Hai
So I don’t accept Hermann Goering’s explanation in that sense. And I have a feeling that Douglas Kelly didn’t either. So I guess that’s a long way of saying that. What’s shown in the movie is a simplified version of of what Goering said. But there is more behind it.

00:23:47:04 – 00:24:15:12
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. Which speaks to how difficult of a job it must have been for, for Kelly to unravel these things of what somebody is telling you may not be the truth, and probably likely is not the truth. I mean, I mean, beyond just, you know, being politicians or things like that, but, you know, these people in a position where their life is at stake and they’re not really used to that.

00:24:15:15 – 00:24:17:12
Jack El-Hai
Absolutely.

00:24:17:14 – 00:24:36:27
Dan LeFebvre
There’s another story I wanted to ask you about from the movie that it comes from a discussion with Doctor Kelly alone in his cell with going I’m sorry in Goering cell not, not in, in doctor Kelly’s. No. But they’re alone together and and going tells the story from his childhood and the Jewish man that he was named after Hermann von Stein.

00:24:36:29 – 00:25:11:13
Dan LeFebvre
And according to the movie, Epstein was was Goering’s father’s best friend. And then Epstein was also extremely rich and let the growing family move in with him at the castle that he own goes to lend itself to how rich he was. He owns a castle, and he goes on to tell Doctor Kelly that living in the castle, the child, he started to realize just how rich, quote unquote, Uncle Herman was, so rich that he could move the Goering family into his castle, so rich that he could make Goering’s father live in a bedroom on the ground floor, while his mother lived in a bedroom just down the hall from Epstein’s own bedroom, and so rich

00:25:11:13 – 00:25:27:29
Dan LeFebvre
that whenever he wanted, he could walk down the hall and enjoy. Goering’s mother in the movie going, uses that story to tell Doctor Kelly that just because someone is your ally doesn’t mean they’re on your side. But how much of that story from Hermann Goering’s childhood really happened?

00:25:28:01 – 00:25:42:12
Jack El-Hai
I think all of it. I think that story is factually correct. And Goring did tell Kelly about it during their in the prison interviews.

00:25:42:14 – 00:25:46:15
Dan LeFebvre
Wow. Wow. I mean, that’s really.

00:25:46:17 – 00:25:53:05
Dan LeFebvre
It’s a peek into Goering’s mind, you know, childhood and.

00:25:53:07 – 00:26:09:27
Dan LeFebvre
How he I guess the way that it was still on his mind. But then using that manipulation. It sounds like he’s trying to manipulate Kelly in the movie using, you know, this, using this nugget of truth and using it to manipulate. I mean, that’s in there.

00:26:09:27 – 00:26:53:11
Jack El-Hai
That’s an important thing to remember about both of these men. They were master manipulators. Both of them. One of my big sources when I was researching the book was I had tracked down Doctor Kelly’s son, Doug. And, so he had all of his memories of his families. Plus he provided me with those boxes of documents. And when I have talked with Doug about this meeting of Goehring and Kelly, we always refer to them as King Kong versus Godzilla because they were both highly intelligent, both, the Egotists, both absolutely sure of their own opinions, stubborn.

00:26:53:13 – 00:27:29:04
Jack El-Hai
And so that were those similarities were part of the basis of their affinity. I won’t call it a friendship. Because Kelly, the entire time was very aware of Hermann Goering’s dark side. The his ruthlessness, lack of conscience, lack of empathy, all of that and would never, considered during a friend. But they did develop a bond just from spending all of those hours together and and sharing so much about their, their pasts.

00:27:29:06 – 00:27:32:29
Jack El-Hai
So that that is a big part of this story.

00:27:33:01 – 00:28:04:06
Dan LeFebvre
Well, that leads right into my next question, because if we go back to the movie’s timeline, the trial is beginning. And something that the movie focuses on is film of the Nazi concentration camps that they play at the trial. Those are just horrible images from the Holocaust, and I’m sure many of us have seen by now. But afterwards, when Kelly talks to Goering in his cell, Kelly is understandably shaken by what he just saw, and he flat out asks Goering how he could be the second in command in Nazi Germany and not know about this.

00:28:04:08 – 00:28:23:14
Dan LeFebvre
And Granger says, oh, Himmler was in charge of the camps. And then Kelly points out that it wasn’t Himmler who was second in command behind Hitler. It was Goering. And then Goering says, oh, well, the films were faked and, you know, comes up with more excuses. And then Goering uses another excuse. He says, you know, Americans bombed Japan, killing 150,000 Japanese.

00:28:23:14 – 00:28:52:08
Dan LeFebvre
That included civilians. And that’s when in the movie, Kelly just blows up at Goering and says, there’s a difference between bombing war factories and civilians dying as collateral damage, and Goering’s Nazi Party building 1200 camps designed to exterminate an entire race. So if were to believe the movie’s version of events, this kind of seems to be a turning point between Kelly and Goering, where I won’t call it a friendship, but they have this this connection going on.

00:28:52:08 – 00:29:06:03
Dan LeFebvre
And then once Kelly sees the films of the concentration camps in the trial and the reality of what the Nazis did, he kind of snaps back to reality. Was that a turning point in how Doctor Kelly interacted with Goering? Like the movie suggests?

00:29:06:06 – 00:29:50:23
Jack El-Hai
Yes, the movie presents, I would say, a concentrated version of that conversation all happening in one scene. In, in actuality, it happened over several days. And so it happened not exactly as shown in the movie. I think, one thing in the, in this scene that Goering is trying to do and something they actually did struggle with during his imprisonment is, was how is he going to present himself when it is his turn to testify in the forthcoming trial?

00:29:50:25 – 00:30:16:27
Jack El-Hai
And so he was strategizing different ways. And so, I’ve always thought that this denial that he makes at the beginning, you know, he had nothing to do with the camps. And then the films were fakes. These were trial balloons that he was sending up to see how Kelly would receive them. And then maybe Goering could make a determination whether to really use that based on Kelly’s reaction.

00:30:17:00 – 00:30:33:20
Dan LeFebvre
Oh, okay. Yeah. So using Kelly as, a guinea pig, almost of his use of his defense. Wow. Okay. Yeah, that that makes sense. Now that you mention that, I didn’t even think about that. There is a character that we see pop up here and there throughout the movie. We haven’t talked about much yet. And her name is Lila.

00:30:33:21 – 00:30:58:27
Dan LeFebvre
She meets Doctor Kelly on the train before he arrives at Nuremberg. Then, after blowing up at Goering and seeing the footage of the concentration camp, we see Doctor Kelly drinking at the bar, and then she shows up again. And that’s when we find out she’s a reporter. The movie seems to imply his drinking played a part, but in the next scene after that, we see a newspaper article with the headline that says Prison Doc Tells All, and that’s Colonel Andrus is not happy with Doctor Kelly talking to a reporter.

00:30:58:27 – 00:31:05:08
Dan LeFebvre
So he orders Kelly back to the States where he’s going to be discharged. Was that really how Doctor Kelly was effectively fired from the job?

00:31:05:11 – 00:31:37:27
Jack El-Hai
No, there’s that’s one place where the story in the film deviates from fact. The reporter character you mentioned is, as far as I know, the only completely made up person in the in the screenplay and in the film, Doctor Kelly did talk with a reporter and said some things that were probably imprudent for him to say, and it was reported in Stars and Stripes, the military newspaper.

00:31:37:29 – 00:32:08:13
Jack El-Hai
But, again, Kelly only got a scolding for that. He did not get him fired. In fact, Kelly was never fired. He left on his own initiative here and then was honorably discharged from the Army. And so, if if the movie gives the impression that Kelly left under some kind of cloud, then that is inaccurate. And in probably there for drama’s sake.

00:32:08:15 – 00:32:31:13
Dan LeFebvre
I know that. Yeah, that makes sense. Again, it is a movie. There’s a there’s another character that we see throughout the movie that we haven’t talked about much yet, and that’s Leo Whittle’s character, Sergeant Howie Triste. He’s the translator, has been working with Doctor Kelly this whole time. So after Kelly is fired in the movie and he’s about to leave, she stops him at the train station and tells him his own story.

00:32:31:16 – 00:32:50:23
Dan LeFebvre
According the movie, he is a German Jew born in Munich. His family was trying to get out of Germany with the rise of the Nazis and they managed to get exit visas in 1940. But only had enough money for one ticket to the United States. His sister was too young to go alone, so she stayed behind with the parents, and that left Howie alone in America, and he tried to enlist.

00:32:50:23 – 00:33:11:03
Dan LeFebvre
After Pearl Harbor, but he was refused because he wasn’t an American citizen. Then, two years later, he was drafted into service and ended up landing on Omaha Beach on D-Day in 1944. I loved the line in the movie where Treece looks at Kelly and says, four years earlier, I left this country scared and alone in the middle of the night, and I came back with the goddamn army.

00:33:11:05 – 00:33:28:20
Dan LeFebvre
And that’s when he comes back as he finds out, according to the movie, that his sister ended up in Switzerland with relatives, and the records show that his parents arrived in Auschwitz in 1942 and then camp was liberated 1945. And there’s no record of them. All of that ends up being the story after after Kelly is fired, he’s about to leave.

00:33:28:23 – 00:33:42:03
Dan LeFebvre
He hears this story, and he hears the importance of what he’s doing and how he can still help with this case against the Nazis. How well do you think the movie did, recounting the story of Sergeant Harry Treece?

00:33:42:05 – 00:34:16:24
Jack El-Hai
How he traced was a real person. He was one of several translators who worked with Doctor Kelly and others in having conversations with the German defendants. I interviewed him, and, I think the way the movie presents his life story is essentially correct. I, don’t have a record of this myself, but I do recall my phone interview with Howie that he did have a slight German accent when I spoke with him.

00:34:17:01 – 00:34:52:16
Jack El-Hai
And, as, Leo Woodall speaks in the movie, it’s completely, non accented, American English. So there there is maybe one, liberty taken there, but his story is, is as it happened pretty much. And and and he, how he Trieste did write a book of his own experiences, before my book was written.

00:34:52:18 – 00:35:06:27
Jack El-Hai
And I use that as a resource. And that line you mentioned, I came back with the U.S. Army. It sounds familiar to me, and I think it may be from how his own book. I may have used it in my own book. I don’t recall.

00:35:06:29 – 00:35:29:17
Dan LeFebvre
It’s a great line now. Well, after hearing this story, Kelly decides not to leave yet. Instead, we see in the movie, we see him giving all of his research on going to Justice Jackson and fight for justice from Great Britain. He gives him all his private files off the book conversations, everything that he’s gathered to put into his own book that he wanted to write after the war.

00:35:29:17 – 00:35:38:19
Dan LeFebvre
He hands over to the prosecutors to help them build their case. Did Doctor Kelly hand over everything he had on going to the Allied prosecutors the way the movie shows?

00:35:38:21 – 00:36:16:04
Jack El-Hai
No. He took it home with him. And and it ended up in those 15 boxes that that I had a chance to look at. So here, here, events do get a little factually murky here because by the time, Goering was going to appear at the trial and give testimony, Kelly was already long gone from Nuremberg. He left in January 1946, and I believe during made his first appearance on the witness stand in March or April of 1946.

00:36:16:06 – 00:36:52:04
Jack El-Hai
So Kelly did not present this stash of, valuable info to the prosecution and to to Justice Jackson. He did, however, during the months that he was in Nuremberg, provide a stream of information to the prosecution team and this was in the form of memos, that he sent periodically, mainly from his conversations with Goering and a lot of that information was about how Goering planned to conduct his own defense at the trial.

00:36:52:04 – 00:36:57:04
Jack El-Hai
So it’s partly factual part, partly not.

00:36:57:07 – 00:37:31:14
Dan LeFebvre
It sounds like a simplified and condensed for the movie. Did Kelly have a lot of off off the record tape conversations with Goering or and with the manner of his work? Because he was, as you mentioned before, kind of going above and beyond and and not just doing the bare minimum. But he was doing extra. Was that still officially documented or recorded, or is that something that he just kept in his own own stuff and never made it to anybody else?

00:37:31:14 – 00:37:32:02
Dan LeFebvre
Basically.

00:37:32:04 – 00:38:07:17
Jack El-Hai
This was his personal project. The court was not interested in it. And, even had they known it was going on, they wouldn’t have been interested in it. And the prosecution, same thing. Kelly was doing this for his own to satisfy his own professional curiosity and to, enable his own later personal glory, as he imagined it when he published his book in 1947, the book was called 22 Cells in Nuremberg.

00:38:07:17 – 00:38:17:17
Jack El-Hai
It’s really hard to find now, and that’s because it sold poorly at the time, and there were just not that many copies out there.

00:38:17:20 – 00:38:40:09
Dan LeFebvre
Well, that’s fascinating that they wouldn’t have been interested, but I guess they had plenty of other evidence to sift through and the whatever current things that they’re saying, you know, we’re talking about earlier, they might not be truthful anyway, whatever Goering is saying. So stick to the evidence, stick to the facts for the trial. It sounds like it’s basically what they were, right.

00:38:40:09 – 00:39:21:26
Jack El-Hai
And whether or not the, defendants, you know, shared a psychic common psychiatric disorder that really was of no import to the prosecution. They just wanted to know, are these men sane? And is it, you know, are they fit to be tried? This, what Kelly was after was really a of importance to, you know, to history or to he and his fellow psychiatrists and, what he, his what he learned from it all is important, because it affected him for the rest of his life.

00:39:21:28 – 00:40:04:11
Jack El-Hai
And it was that if there was no Nazi virus, that these men did not share a psychiatric disorder. In fact, they were not psychiatrically disordered at all in any way that their personalities fell within the normal range. Meaning not that everyone’s capable of doing what they did, but that there are, in every country, every era, all around us, people like that who, lack conscience, lack empathy, have no concept of public service in or out for their own power and glory, and will trample, many, many other people to get there.

00:40:04:14 – 00:40:25:12
Dan LeFebvre
What? You might have already answered my my next question, but if you go back to the movie’s timeline, it’s there’s another day of trial. And Justice Jackson from the US and five from Great Britain managed to get going to admit something that ends up being his ultimate demise, at least according to the movie. Throughout the whole case, he’d been denying knowledge of what was going on in the concentration camp.

00:40:25:15 – 00:40:45:27
Dan LeFebvre
But then, thanks to Kelly’s tip that Göring would never turn on Adolf Hitler, asks him point blank while Göring is on the stand, even if he didn’t know what was going on in the concentration camps. Now that he does, with the evidence presented to him in court, would he still follow Hitler? And Goering says yes, he would, at least according to the movie, I’m assuming.

00:40:45:29 – 00:40:47:25
Dan LeFebvre
Did that actually happen.

00:40:47:28 – 00:41:20:13
Jack El-Hai
That those, scenes are, were, are a little bit outside of the scope of my book because Kelly was already gone. And, and so, my impression, though, is that it wasn’t just five who helped Jackson out. It was the large prosecution team. It was a team effort. It is true that when Jackson was questioning Goering, Goering was scoring some very good points and making Jackson look bad and making himself look good.

00:41:20:15 – 00:41:44:16
Jack El-Hai
And so it did require, something of a rescue effort by the rest of the prosecution team, but that I think that mainly came in the form of an avalanche of evidence against Goering, contradicting, some of the claims he had made earlier that he didn’t know about the Holocaust. He had nothing to do with death camps, etc..

00:41:44:16 – 00:41:47:24
Jack El-Hai
And the evidence showed that that wasn’t true.

00:41:47:26 – 00:42:07:03
Dan LeFebvre
What after Goering’s fate is sealed along with the other Nazis in the trial, the movie shows Colonel Andrus addressing the men that the executions are scheduled for midnight, but to maintain discipline, the prisoners aren’t going to be told about it until 11:45 p.m., when they’re offered last rites. And while he’s telling his men this, he gets notification that Goring took a cyanide pill.

00:42:07:06 – 00:42:21:12
Dan LeFebvre
So the impression that I got watching the movie was Goering didn’t know that was the night of the execution, because he didn’t tell anybody. But he knew it would be soon. And somehow he managed to get this cyanide pill. Was that what really happened?

00:42:21:14 – 00:42:52:10
Jack El-Hai
Yes, more or less. When Goehring surrendered to the Allied authorities, he had cyanide capsules with him hidden in his luggage and maybe other places. And these were the capsules that, that Himmler and gerbils had used to to take their own lives earlier. And so nobody really knows how Göring got a hold of one of those capsules in his cell.

00:42:52:13 – 00:43:26:18
Jack El-Hai
But the most convincing theory I know, and this isn’t gotten into in the film, is that he made an arrangement with an American guard, and in exchange for the guard receiving some valuables, the during had, jewelry and rings and things like that. The guard provided Goering with access to the most hidden cyanide capsules. I think, aside from the one that Goering did take, to commit suicide, there was another one found in his cell at the same time.

00:43:26:21 – 00:43:46:02
Dan LeFebvre
Oh, wow. Wow. Well, I guess kind of what you’re talking about before, you know, King Kong versus Godzilla. But, you know, a guard is not King Kong or Godzilla or anywhere in that scheme. So I could see how somebody like Goering would be able to manipulate people to kind of do what he wanted.

00:43:46:05 – 00:43:57:26
Jack El-Hai
Absolutely. He was a charmer, and he could turn on the charm when he wanted it. And everybody was bored in prison. And charm could go a long way.

00:43:57:28 – 00:44:15:16
Dan LeFebvre
At the end of the movie, there’s a scene with Doctor Kelly being interviewed by a radio host back in the United States. And when the host mentions the Nazis are a unique people, I want to quote what Raymie Maltz version of Doctor Kelly replies with, because I think the dialog here was extremely well-written. He says, quote, they are not unique people.

00:44:15:16 – 00:44:42:22
Dan LeFebvre
There are people like the Nazis in every country in the world today. And then the host button interrupts them and says, Not in America. And then Doctor Kelly continues, quote, yes, in America, your personality patterns are not obscure. They are people who want to be in power. And while you say they don’t exist here, I would say I’m quite certain there are people in America who would willingly climb over the corpses of half the American public if they knew they could gain control of the other half.

00:44:42:25 – 00:45:05:15
Dan LeFebvre
They stoke hatred. It’s what Hitler and Goring did, and it is textbook. And if you think the next time it happens, we’re going to recognize it because they’re wearing scary uniforms. You’re out of your damn mind. And that’s the end of the quote. Now, even though this is not a political podcast, I do think that’s an important thing to keep in mind, because it seems like these days there’s a lot of hatred being stoked to try and gain control.

00:45:05:18 – 00:45:15:11
Dan LeFebvre
So my final question for you, what lessons do you think we can learn from the true story of Doctor Kelly’s work in the Nuremberg trials?

00:45:15:13 – 00:46:00:13
Jack El-Hai
Those words that that you repeated, that Doctor Kelly says in the movie were absolutely Douglas Kelly’s words. I don’t know if he actually spoke to them in a radio interview, but they’re in his book. And, I think there are two strands of, of contemporary resonance that this story has today. And one is how important it is for people in in positions of leadership, positions of responsibility to be held accountable by the international community, as happened at Nuremberg for crimes against peace, crimes against humanity, genocide, all of it.

00:46:00:16 – 00:46:29:24
Jack El-Hai
And then the other is the threat that we face, in our country, the threat to our democracy from these extremist ideologies. Kelly came back to the US and his perspective had been changed from, spending so much time with these defendants. And he saw, things very close to Nazi ism all around him. So this was in 1946.

00:46:29:26 – 00:47:05:07
Jack El-Hai
It was expressed, mainly in the form of the power grabs made by southern politicians, the racial segregationists who had very high state offices at the time, governors, senator, senators. And, but he made it clear and Kelly made it clear that this did not only apply to those people and that it applied to anyone who would use emotion, try and fight off, critical thinking as a way to make decisions.

00:47:05:10 – 00:47:36:25
Jack El-Hai
People who use, degrading terms. For of other of their opponents based on race, religion, where they’re from, all of that. Kelly saw it around him and was against it, and he even laid out a plan for fighting it. So it’s it’s a message. He was prescient, and it’s a message that I think we need to pay attention, especially now.

00:47:36:27 – 00:47:55:00
Dan LeFebvre
I agree. Thank you so much for coming on to chat about the movie Nuremberg. The movie is based on your fantastic book Nazi and the psychiatrist, which goes into a lot more depth than we ever could on a single podcast episode. So for everyone wanting to learn more about the true story behind the movie, I have a link in the show notes where you can get your own copy of Jack’s book right now while they do that.

00:47:55:00 – 00:48:03:12
Dan LeFebvre
And before I let you go, Jack, can you share one of your favorite stories from the process of making the movie?

00:48:03:15 – 00:48:46:14
Jack El-Hai
Sure. I, was was fortunate to be invited by the film’s director and screenwriter, James Vanderbilt, to come to Hungary. This was the last year in 2024 to, visit this the set. It was actually a gigantic soundstage on the outskirts of Budapest and, see some of the filming. So I got there, and on the first day of shooting that I was witness to the scene that they were shooting that day was a set built to look like a big transport plane, the inside of a big transport plane.

00:48:46:16 – 00:49:20:02
Jack El-Hai
And, this was used in a scene where all of the German defendants are being transported from Luxembourg, where many of them were initially held, to Nuremberg, where the trial would be held. And, I had written this scene in my book and had imagined it a particular way. And when I saw the cast and it was almost everybody crammed into this small space representing the inside of the transport plane.

00:49:20:04 – 00:49:45:13
Jack El-Hai
When I saw that, coming to life before my eyes, I was just dumbfounded because it played out exactly as I imagined it. And, you know, even to the point of the interactions between the defendants and Doctor Kelly, who was also aboard. So that was the first thing I saw. And it has really stayed with me all this time.

00:49:45:16 – 00:49:59:05
Dan LeFebvre
I mean, that’s that’s high praise that they nailed it what you had in your head. And it’s also high praise of what you had in your head, also came out in the book. Obviously, it translated to the other side too, where they were able to see what you had in your head as you wrote.

00:49:59:07 – 00:50:18:24
Jack El-Hai
Yeah. And James Vanderbilt, the screenwriter and director, is, very attuned to history as well as being an excellent screenwriter. And, I think he placed a priority, whenever possible, to make things as historically accurate as possible.

00:50:18:27 – 00:50:21:07
Dan LeFebvre
Well, thank you again so much for your time, Jack.

00:50:21:09 – 00:50:31:15
Jack El-Hai
Thank you. Dan, good to be here.

00:50:31:17 – 00:50:48:02
Dan LeFebvre
This episode is based on a true story was produced by me, Dan the Fed. Thank you once again to Jack ally for sharing his time and expertise to help us separate fact from fiction in the movie Nuremberg. If you want to dig deeper into the true story, I can’t recommend Jack’s book enough. It’s called The Nazi and the psychiatrist.

00:50:48:04 – 00:51:05:17
Dan LeFebvre
And as we learned, this is the book that they based the movie on. I’ve got a link to this in the show notes, so you can pick up your own copy, as well as on the shows home on the web over at based on a True Story podcast.com/378. Okay, now it’s time for the answer to our two truths and a lie game from the beginning of the episode, and it’s a quick refresher.

00:51:05:18 – 00:51:28:08
Dan LeFebvre
Here are the two truths and one lie again. Number one Doctor Kelly was fired for talking to a newspaper reporter in Nuremberg. Number two, Doctor Kelly delivered letters from Hermann Goering to his family like we see in the movie number three. Doctor Kelly talked to growing more than any of the other Nazi prisoners in Nuremberg. Did you figure out which one is a lie?

00:51:28:10 – 00:51:46:10
Dan LeFebvre
I’ve got the envelope here, so let’s open this up. And the lie is number one. As Jack pointed out, the reporter that we see Doctor Kelly talking to in the movie is a fictional character. And we also learned that Doctor Kelly left Nuremberg. I was on a court and he was never fired like we see in the movie.

00:51:46:13 – 00:52:02:01
Dan LeFebvre
Thanks for sticking around to the end. If you are watching the video version here in a moment, you’re going to see the credits roll, and if you want to get your name in the credits for the next video and on the website, you can learn how to become a based on a true story producer using the link in the description or over at based on a True Story podcast.

00:52:02:01 – 00:52:13:17
Dan LeFebvre
E-commerce support once again, that’s based on a true story podcast.com/support. Until next time, thanks so much for spending your time with Jack and I today, and I’ll chat with you again really soon.

00:02:13:01 – 00:02:40:00
Dan LeFebvre
Let’s start this off on D-Day, June 6th, 1944. In the movie, we find out from some text on the screen that we’re at Dog Green Sector Omaha Beach. And this is where we join Tom Hanks, his character, Captain John Miller, and the other soldiers as they’re heading toward the beaches and landing vehicles. This is an interesting look at what it might have been like for soldiers as they were nearing the shores.

00:02:40:02 – 00:03:11:26
Dan LeFebvre
They can’t see over the sides of the vehicles. All they can hear are the guns and explosions getting closer. There are splashes from the explosions that rain water down on top of them. Then, as it’s time to go, we see the front ramp lowered and the front soldiers are almost immediately mowed down by machine gun fire. Miller starts yelling for his men to jump over the sides, which causes even more problems because as they do, their way down by their packs, some of the men manage to get out of their gear underwater and make it back to the surface.

00:03:11:29 – 00:03:23:12
Dan LeFebvre
Others don’t. Can you give us a little more insight into the location that we get in the movie of Don Green Sector, Omaha Beach, and these moments up until landing on the beach?

00:03:23:19 – 00:04:07:29
Marty Morgan
Yeah, what they’re depicting is the moment of the greatest intensity during the battle for Omaha Beach. I would just mention that Omaha Beach was really six separate battles, each battle functioning separate and almost entirely autonomous, and disconnected from one another for the first half of the day on D-Day. And what the screenplay writer in the movie did was, he chose the battle that provided the greatest amount of drama because the U.S. Army Fifth Corps landings in the dark green sector of Omaha Beach, and those are landings primarily carried out by two battalions of the 29th Infantry Division and

00:04:08:02 – 00:04:42:28
Marty Morgan
Then, with a few Rangers thrown in. That is where the entire assault goes entirely wrong. In fact, the the the historical quote that I think most effectively communicates how bad it was there is what happens to a company of the 164th Infantry Regiment of the 29th Division, a company landed with 164 officers and men, and within five minutes of combat in front of the German Resistance Master Bunker complex at Dog Sector, they had suffered 91 killed and 65 wounded.

00:04:43:00 – 00:05:08:25
Marty Morgan
So that literally in the span of five minutes, an entire infantry company was reduced to complete ineffectiveness. And that’s a significant detail because the Yoma, the first wave at Omaha Beach, consisted of nine infantry companies spread out over the entire length of the beach and Omaha Beach is five miles wide. Out of the nine infantry companies that conducted that preliminary assault.

00:05:08:28 – 00:05:14:24
Marty Morgan
One of them is destroyed entirely in front of the defenses at Dark Green Sector.

00:05:14:26 – 00:05:25:08
Dan LeFebvre
I know you mentioned the number of, division, but just getting a sense of how many people are storming the beaches this five mile stretch of beach, how many people were there overall that were involved in the invasion there?

00:05:25:10 – 00:05:39:11
Marty Morgan
Or if you consider just the first wave? And of course, there were far more than just one way during the day on June 6th. But if you consider just the first wave nine infantry companies just as approaching 1800 to 2000 men.

00:05:39:13 – 00:05:40:00
Dan LeFebvre
Wow.

00:05:40:02 – 00:06:18:03
Marty Morgan
They’re going up against Germans and basically 13 resistance nest or bunker complexes. And the total number of Germans that were immediately in those fighting positions ready to resist the landings at right after dawn on D-Day. So the number of Germans is about 600. So our assault force, even with just the first wave, possesses numerical superiority. But the German defending force was behind concrete and then also, in positions that were built into terrain so that they had elevation over the battlefield.

00:06:18:05 – 00:06:40:14
Marty Morgan
The bluff at Omaha Beach is about 100ft tall. German positions were, at the water level, and they were on top of the bluffs. And the the effect of the elevation, the use of terrain, and the use of concrete fighting positions function as a force multiplier. That made it possible for those German defenders to inflict heavy casualties for a brief period of time.

00:06:40:14 – 00:07:05:03
Marty Morgan
A point I love to make when discussing the movie Saving Private Ryan is that you can go just a few hundred meters to the east, down the length of Omaha Beach, where you’re encountering US troops that are landing first waves, and they’re receiving a little bit of harassing fire at long ranges to where the fire is not entirely effective.

00:07:05:05 – 00:07:33:06
Marty Morgan
And in other words, you could you had Americans that landed that were just a few hundred meters to the east of dark Green Sector, and almost everyone gets out of the landing craft, gets, through the beach obstacles and makes it to the stand called the shingle with light casualties, that stands in strong contrast to what happens at Green Sector, which is, of course, what’s depicted in the opening scene of the movie, where you have effectively cataclysmic casualties.

00:07:33:08 – 00:07:55:09
Dan LeFebvre
The impression I got was that was essentially what was going on everywhere, because of course, that’s the only thing that we see is this just mass rain of of fire. As these people are getting out of the, the landing vehicles. And so I just assumed that that was happening everywhere on the beach. But it sounds like very, very different experiences.

00:07:55:11 – 00:08:26:21
Marty Morgan
That’s absolutely correct, because the movie will teach you the impression that it was a five mile wide slaughterhouse, and it simply was not that. It just wasn’t that at all. I make the larger macro argument that the depiction of the moment of the greatest chaos and casualties, it sort of fits something that’s been going on in the overall narrative of the war movie as a genre and cinema for at least 50 years now.

00:08:26:23 – 00:09:00:27
Marty Morgan
And I argue that the era of Vietnam introduced certain levels of disenchantment and cynicism to the way that Americans comprehend the experience of war, and that the Vietnam era changed the way that we understand war, and that we always think of it as being led by fools. Thing bureaucratically led to the point of producing a massive ineffectiveness. And we at a point I like to make do is that it takes up to the victimization of the lowest ranking people.

00:09:00:29 – 00:09:27:27
Marty Morgan
And so, in other words, since the era of Vietnam, we like to imagine sat, catch corrupted high ranking officers that are far removed from the experience of fighting on the front, who are planning of, planning the battles in which the best and brightest of American youth are slaughtered needlessly on the battlefield and Private Ryan, I find, is a movie that, at its core is very patriotic.

00:09:27:29 – 00:09:52:06
Marty Morgan
Which is why it came as such a surprise to me when the movie came out and I caught it for the first time in the theaters, it really felt like a change of gears, because it’s a movie that, in the end, is very patriotic, very, very romanticized. But at the same time, I find that it selects from some of what tropes that really characterize the era of the Vietnam War movie.

00:09:52:08 – 00:10:17:20
Dan LeFebvre
After the soldiers land on the beach again, going back to the movie, we get a look at how they advance inland. First, there’s some metal obstacles that the Germans set up to prevent vehicles from landing on the beach, but they use that as cover. Much cover, but it’s better than nothing. And one of the lines of dialog, as they’re getting shot at, they’re kind of struck me as interesting.

00:10:17:27 – 00:10:36:22
Dan LeFebvre
There’s a soldier that yells to Tom Hanks, his character, Captain Miller says something like, what are your orders, sir? And he replies, get your men off the beach. Like they had to be told not to just hang out there as as they’re being slaughtered. But from here, we see soldiers managed to take, berm in the sand.

00:10:36:22 – 00:10:57:11
Dan LeFebvre
They use that as cover, and then they use what they call Bangalore’s, which look like long metal tubes. You see them put an explosive in one end and then basically just throw the entire thing over. Almost seems like movie magic to me because it’s just like they throw it over, there’s a massive explosion, and then the men are able to advance closer to the machine gun nests.

00:10:57:13 – 00:11:19:27
Dan LeFebvre
And the next step of this advance inland here is on the movie is, Barry Peppers character, Jackson. He’s a sniper, so they use covering fire to get him into position to take out the men and machine gun nest. And then from there, the American soldiers make their way to the German bunker. They use a mixture of grenades and, flamethrowers to clear out the bunker.

00:11:19:29 – 00:11:45:26
Dan LeFebvre
And, of course, you know, we see the soldiers on the other side tell the other soldiers not to shoot them because they want them to burn up with the flamethrower, that, act of cruelty there. But, after this, we see Captain Miller sit down to survey the beach, and it’s just a very high level overview of how the movie shows, basically the troops gaining a foothold on D-Day.

00:11:45:28 – 00:11:55:11
Dan LeFebvre
How accurate is that depiction of how the soldiers advance from their landing craft to establish a foothold? How accurate was that?

00:11:55:14 – 00:12:32:15
Marty Morgan
Let me put it this way. It is the most accurate cinema depiction to date. That’s as nice as I can be. Because once you once you begin to pick this scene apart, with what’s with some advanced, like with an advanced course and knowledge and the history of D-Day invasion? It’s hard not to acknowledge the fact that there are some substantial errors and authenticity and the way that the scene is depicted, it feels almost wrong for me to harp on those, and I try to stay away from them as much as possible.

00:12:32:17 – 00:12:55:06
Marty Morgan
But because I believe that the scene I think that’s the most memorable takeaway of the entire motion picture, that whole first 20 minutes of that film is what galvanized everyone. It’s what grabs you by the throat and pulls you into that story. It’s such an effective moment in filmmaking, and it, I remember the first time I sat through it.

00:12:55:12 – 00:13:40:12
Marty Morgan
I mean, it was it took my breath away. It was it’s such an impactful, moment in cinema. With that said, it’s got lots of problems. And let’s just start with, the flamethrower. Don’t shoot. Let them burn. There is absolutely no use whatsoever of the flamethrower on Omaha Beach on Tuesday, June 6th, 1944. So right there, we got a big problem because, as a person who leads tours to Normandy many, many times every year and has been doing so for over 20 years, I have basically been doing so in the era since the movie Private Ryan came out, because it came out what was July 24th, 1998.

00:13:40:15 – 00:14:02:28
Marty Morgan
It’s been almost 22 years since the movie came out. I’ve been leading tours during that era. That’s sort of something that comes up basically with every tour. And I’m not saying that we did not conduct the interviews landing without flamethrowers. There were flamethrower was used on D-Day, just not on Omaha Beach. It was used in the British Canadian sectors, for example, with great effect.

00:14:02:28 – 00:14:41:07
Marty Morgan
They were used on armored fighting vehicles, particularly with great effect, not in the American sector and definitely not on Omaha Beach. So a scene that I believe provided this lasting impact for the viewer. Ammo, I should say a moment that provides a lasting impact for the viewer is built around a core level historical inaccuracy that I personally have to spend kind of a lot of time dealing with when I’m on the scene on Omaha Beach, taking people through the advanced course of what actually happened on D-Day, because what I’m finding is that people have maybe read a little bit about June 6th.

00:14:41:10 – 00:15:07:15
Marty Morgan
They’ve watched the movies, they’ve watched Private Ryan, and they come to Normandy. And it’s almost like when they get to Normandy, then the actuality of the learning experience can begin again. I feel like Saving Private Ryan did wonders for this subject. I think it created the era where there’s an enormous thirst for knowledge about D-Day. It put Normandy kind of back on the map as a tourist destination for Americans.

00:15:07:15 – 00:15:30:04
Marty Morgan
I can speak to that with authority because I might not have that tour guide work were it not for that movie. In other words, if Steven Spielberg had not decided that this was his next passion project, I might be working at the post office. But instead I spent. I get to spend a great deal of time on Omaha Beach every year, and I absolutely love every bit of it.

00:15:30:07 – 00:16:03:09
Marty Morgan
And I have to acknowledge and thank the movie Saving Private Ryan for making all that possible. Because these movies really offer such a powerful tool for getting people interested in the subject matter and getting people enthusiastic about the subject matter. So it feels. I feel bad when I harp on things like no flamethrowers on Omaha Beach, horses landed on Omaha Beach with flamethrowers, but a major moment for the landings of the US Army Corps on Omaha Beach, is that the troops are, for the most part, landed.

00:16:03:09 – 00:16:28:09
Marty Morgan
The troops of the first wave are landed for the most part on a sandbar off shore. That compelled them as they waited ashore to wade through water that got deeper and deeper. You can see this in this famous photograph that was taken by U.S. Coast Guardsman Bob Sergeant. And the sergeant. Photos show a group of men from 16th Infantry Regiment, first Infantry Division, landing in front of the easy Read sector of Omaha Beach.

00:16:28:12 – 00:16:47:28
Marty Morgan
And there’s a photograph that shows them on the landing craft right before they land. And then there’s a photo of the ramp down in the LCP, and the men are wading through water that comes all the way up to their chest. That, I think, provides a really powerful piece of evidence as to why things went wrong with things like flankers.

00:16:47:28 – 00:17:20:28
Marty Morgan
And also radios is where pieces of equipment that were never meant to be submerged in salt water, and yet they were submerged in salt water on D-Day. Which is why for the most part, radios and flamethrowers do not work on Omaha Beach. So you’ve got a big problem there with the flamethrower scene. Something that attaches nicely to the flamethrower point is that the depiction of the bunker from the don’t let them burn moment, that bunker is not something that appears anywhere on the landing area.

00:17:20:28 – 00:17:58:07
Marty Morgan
The 50 mile wide stretch of beaches in northern France, where the multinational coalition landed on D-Day. There is no bunker like that. There are none. Absolutely not. It’s a complete falsehood. There are bunkers that look like that, that are in the overall German system of of prefabricated design. But you don’t have one like that on Omaha Beach, so that when you see the flamethrower come into the back of the position and then he hits the flame and you see, a hardened position that’s on the face of the bluff, looking straight out to the water.

00:17:58:09 – 00:18:19:05
Marty Morgan
What? That looks more like an observation position than anything. You don’t have that on Omaha Beach. What you have are a series of fighting positions that present a much more modest profile. And when I say that, I mean a profile that’s a little bit harder to shoot and destroy. Their basic with two types, I should say three types of fighting positions.

00:18:19:05 – 00:18:44:27
Marty Morgan
On a small beach, there are fighting positions or heavy weapons like anti-tank guns, 88 millimeter guns, 75 millimeter guns, 50 millimeter guns. Those positions are, for the most part, oriented not out to sea, but oriented to direct info, lighting, fire gun, the length of the beach. And all of them have a traverse wall that protects the armature, which is the opening through which the gun points.

00:18:45:00 – 00:19:07:09
Marty Morgan
Then there are a series of fighting positions for automatic weapons. They’re much smaller in overall scale, and those fighting positions in some cases do point out to sea. But the Germans, also on Omaha Beach, had a large number of fighting positions that were, basically improvised, meaning they were dug positions that use logs and sandbags to to reinforce them.

00:19:07:11 – 00:19:48:18
Marty Morgan
Then you also have positions that concrete underground positions for mortars. And since I just spoke that word, I feel like I should jump ahead real quick and just address one other subject. There’s a there’s a very arresting moment in that opening scene of Private Ryan where you see an LCD landing craft on the beach. The camera perspective is over the right shoulder of a German MG 42 gunner, and that gunner is, just dumping a built of eight millimeter ammunition straight down through the ramp into the landing craft and slaughtering everybody on board the landing craft.

00:19:48:20 – 00:20:12:22
Marty Morgan
I’m not saying that there’s, a basic problem with that depiction, but I would say this, it has led people to believe that there were a very large number of MG 42 machine guns on Omaha Beach on D-Day, and it has led people to the further misapprehension that the MG 42 was a decisive weapon against Americans landing on Omaha Beach.

00:20:12:25 – 00:20:54:13
Marty Morgan
It certainly was not. That is definitely not what happened there. There were there was an assortment of different types of automatic weapons on Omaha Beach. Not all of them were MG 42. In fact, the minority of them were Ng 42 and the MG 42. Well, I should say this. The engine 40 and all of the other different types of automatic weapons, many of which were foreign, by the way, those weapons were far less effective than the opening scene of Private Ryan would have you believe, because what they what that scene but lead you to believe is that the entire area, everyone’s being slaughtered because the entire area is being swept by machine gun fire.

00:20:54:16 – 00:21:17:01
Marty Morgan
And it makes you furthermore think that the entire Al-hol Beach area was being swept with a machine gun fire and energy for it. There were MG 40 twos. They were the minority of all of the different diverse types of automatic weapons that were there. And automatic weapons fire did not produce anywhere close to the total number of casualties that the actual big killer on D-Day did.

00:21:17:03 – 00:21:32:20
Marty Morgan
And the big killer on Omaha Beach was a German model like 1934 80 millimeter mortar. That weapon does most of the dirty work against American forces landing during those early hours of June 6th.

00:21:32:22 – 00:21:50:05
Dan LeFebvre
There was a moment there, I think it was Tom Hanks, his character, when when the when the, I don’t remember the soldier’s name. I was talking to him, asking him what the orders were, but, he made a comment where they’ve cited in every inch of this beach, and I’m assuming that was referring to the mortars. Would that be correct?

00:21:50:07 – 00:22:17:26
Marty Morgan
That would be correct. And I should just mention this, that the one cool thing that Private Ryan does is that it borrows from stories from a number of actual living people, because I can see why Spielberg made the movie the way that he did, and I appreciate the movie that he made, and I like the movie that made, but he didn’t want to make a 100% pure and actuality based documentary the way that The Longest Day was.

00:22:17:26 – 00:22:40:29
Marty Morgan
For example, he wanted to create a story that he had some freedom to be flexible with, to create circumstances, to create tension between characters. He did the things that storytellers do, and it was all based on the story of Tuesday, June 6th, 1944, and a few days thereafter. One of the things he for the Tom Hanks character, he borrows from a few different people.

00:22:40:29 – 00:23:07:15
Marty Morgan
I’ll probably mention them as we continue speaking, but since you mentioned the quote of get your men off the beach, I would just say that in that moment, they borrowed from the story of the man who commanded the U.S. Army’s 16th Infantry Regiment on D-Day. His name was Colonel George Taylor and Colonel Taylor, and landing noticed that there were that the assault toward the beach had largely lost momentum.

00:23:07:17 – 00:23:29:24
Marty Morgan
And the reason that that momentum was lost was because that as men came off of their landing craft, they found that they were vulnerable to enemy small arms fire and more importantly, fragmentation from enemy mortar fire. The men then moved quickly through the built where the obstacles were located. And they found that when they reached the beach itself.

00:23:29:26 – 00:23:50:17
Marty Morgan
I’m not talking about the water line, but they’re reaching the basically the high water line. Because we landed at low tide as the tide was beginning to come in and at the high water line on Omaha Beach back then. It’s not like this today. But 75 years ago, there was this thing that they called the shingle, and the shingle was riprap.

00:23:50:17 – 00:24:16:27
Marty Morgan
So they were they were river rocks about the size of your fist by the millions. They were poured right at the water’s edge to prevent scouring of the beach from seasonal winter storms. The the shingle will as a result of wave action. It will sort of take the form of a little bit of a ledge. And there are only two places that I know of today on the overall length of Omaha Beach, where there’s a little bit of shingle still left.

00:24:16:27 – 00:24:38:13
Marty Morgan
The shingle has largely been removed. So the Omaha beach that you see today looks quite a bit different than the Omaha Beach did on June 6th, 1944. But what George, Colonel Taylor was finding was that as men came off the landing craft, as they made it up to the beach obstacles, they were being, hit by small arms fire and fragmentation from mortars.

00:24:38:15 – 00:25:02:28
Marty Morgan
The men pressed forward from there, and when they reached the shingle, they found that this ledge, created in the shingle by wave action, provided a degree of shelter, meaning that when the men reached that ledge at the shingle, that the enemy automatic weapons fire could no longer get to them, and the only way that the enemy could get to them would be to drop mortars and right on top of them.

00:25:03:00 – 00:25:28:04
Marty Morgan
And so what Colonel Taylor noticed was that the men had gotten off the landing craft, gotten through the obstacles, reached the shingle, and then the entire drive inland lost momentum right there because the troops had cover, ahead, cover and concealment. And I can’t say that I blame those men for stopping at the point where they were at least out of the small arms fire and the mortar fire.

00:25:28:06 – 00:25:49:18
Marty Morgan
The only problem was that the enemy could then begin dropping mortar fire in on them. And Colonel Taylor realized that so that when Colonel Taylor came off of his landing craft, as he moved across the beach through the obstacles, and when he reached the shingle and looked around and saw that nobody was moving inland, he realized, okay, we can’t stay here, because if we stay here, they’re going to get us.

00:25:49:18 – 00:26:17:28
Marty Morgan
They’re going to stop, start dropping mortar fire on us. And that’s where you see the first movement, the first moment that Tom Hanks’s character, John Miller, is inspired by something that was done by an actual historical character. And in this case, Colonel George Taylor and Colonel Taylor, he he he provided this quote right then that became memorable and is often cited in the quote was, there are two kinds of people who are staying on this beach.

00:26:18:00 – 00:26:39:28
Marty Morgan
Those are those who are dead and those who are going to die. Now let’s get the hell out of here. And that quote, as time goes by, has has changed and merged a little bit. And to a certain degree, it informs the Captain Miller character’s quote when he when he instructs Sergeant Horvath to get your men off the beach.

00:26:40:00 – 00:26:50:15
Marty Morgan
But there you have a moment where his experience is based on someone who actually survived the Battle of Omaha Beach on D-Day. There will be a few more, before the scene is over with.

00:26:50:17 – 00:27:07:27
Dan LeFebvre
Would you say it’s fair to say that what what they did and Doug Green Sector in the movie was basically take all of these different experiences that were happening on D-Day and, and compress them into as if they all happened in this one location.

00:27:07:29 – 00:27:36:17
Marty Morgan
It is a fair assessment. In fact, I would I would say that what happened there is I live in Louisiana and everything gets compared to a gumbo. It is a gumbo. It’s everything all mixed together to create a scene that provides the absolute greatest possible, tension, suspense, action and drama. I mean, and that’s the sign of good storytelling and therefore good filmmaking.

00:27:36:19 – 00:27:45:06
Marty Morgan
But we should also be careful that when someone tells a story well and provides excellence in filmmaking, we should understand it’s not a documentary.

00:27:45:09 – 00:28:04:09
Dan LeFebvre
Now, I’m curious because I did time it mentioned the first 20 minutes or so, and it was about 2020 one minutes or so, depending on where you start and stop, from when the landing craft drops the ramp to when Captain Miller is surveying the beach. How long did it actually take for them to establish that foothold?

00:28:04:12 – 00:28:25:24
Marty Morgan
It changes from place to place. I hate to give you typical story and answers because historians like to qualify things, but I recognize basically six battles for Omaha Beach. And in those six battles, you can mark how in each one of these pods of action men land, get off the beach, get up to the top of the bluffs.

00:28:25:24 – 00:28:52:21
Marty Morgan
And typically the point where we acknowledge that they’ve reached the end of the line is when they reach the top of the bluff, the first force to make it off the beach to the top of the bluff on D-Day. That was a cumulative period of time of, I’d say, a little over two hours approaching three, which says something powerful about what happened on Omaha Beach.

00:28:52:24 – 00:29:19:14
Marty Morgan
Because the plan was not that we would spend almost three hours bogged down by enemy machine guns and mortars. The plan was that we would land, overwhelm the enemy and move quickly into the interior, bypassing the enemy’s beach defenses, because we knew that once you move beyond the beach and you moved into the interior, the enemy’s ability to defend was greatly undermined by density of defensive forces and terrain.

00:29:19:16 – 00:29:45:04
Marty Morgan
We, in other words, we were not planning to lose a lot of great people trying to punch through the beach defenses. And that’s that’s what happened. So the first force is up and off the beach, way down at the far left, the far eastern end of Long Beach. And that is a force that was led for the most part by a lieutenant by the name of Jimmy Montes Lopes, on which Monteith gets his men off the beach.

00:29:45:04 – 00:30:20:00
Marty Morgan
He actually leads to Sherman tanks up the cardboard draw. They engage in intense action against a German bunker complex. At the top of the cardboard draw, the far eastern end of Omaha Beach in the Fox sector, a place called in 60. And they’re up some point between 9 and 9:30 a.m.. They’re the first off the beach, the air, the place where you get the men, the last group to get off the beach or to the top of the blast, that’s turning, that’s happening in the area, 16th Infantry Regiment.

00:30:20:03 – 00:30:38:15
Marty Morgan
And the eighth entry. That’s just to the, to the east, Green Sector. So that by 10:00, basically the entire first wave assault force has achieved the objective of getting off the beach and reaching the summit of the bluff behind the beach.

00:30:38:17 – 00:30:52:03
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. So it sounds like not only did they compress everything as far as the events themselves, but also the timeline was compressed some as well to tell. Like you said, end of the day, it’s not a documentary, but to tell the story.

00:30:52:06 – 00:31:14:11
Marty Morgan
Precisely like a great example of how it’s done. And another project that’s worked quite famous is people love to talk about episode two of the HBO mini series Band of Brothers, and in that episode, it depicts this battle at a place called Breaker Manor, where Lieutenant Dick winters leads his men in an assault on a German gun battery.

00:31:14:13 – 00:31:45:03
Marty Morgan
And in the HBO in episode two of the HBO series That attack unfolds over about a 20 minute time period when in actuality, the battle at Break Manor goes on for almost six hours during the day. On June 6th. Film making requires you to strip down timelines and compress fat, and that process of compression is something, but it exerting itself on the movie, Saving Private Ryan in a powerful way in that early scene.

00:31:45:05 – 00:32:23:14
Marty Morgan
But I would I would just say this, because as much as I like to go, actually, but and then point out a bunch of, of obscure facts that nobody cares about. So the fact that you do get a scene that is effectively 20 minutes of nothing but, combat and action, for all of its shortcomings, I would say that there is no living filmmaker on this planet that could get away with doing that, except Steven Spielberg, because any other filmmaker would be under the supervision of studio executives and studio executives.

00:32:23:14 – 00:32:44:17
Marty Morgan
One would want the film to conform to a more traditional action movie format. You can look at other movies that came out in the aftermath of Private Ryan movies that I always like to say, live in the shadow of Private Ryan Rubin’s movies that just didn’t perform like that, like that film movies that didn’t create the legacy that Private Ryan created.

00:32:44:20 – 00:33:06:04
Marty Morgan
I think of movies like, a movie that I actually really like, The Thin Red line. It just didn’t live up to the Private Ryan, like legend, the movie win talkers. I think it’s a great example that a film where the director was under a lot of studio pressure to conform to certain tropes of what an action movie, what they believe an action movie is supposed to be.

00:33:06:07 – 00:33:30:08
Marty Morgan
And the movie’s just it’s not memorable. It’s got a lot of problems with it, and it’s kind of not a good movie on every level. Private Ryan, on the other hand, is Steven Spielberg, who at the point in his career 22 years ago when he sat down to make this film, he was thinking about making that film almost 25 years ago when Spielberg sat down to make that movie.

00:33:30:08 – 00:33:51:02
Marty Morgan
He was at a point in his career where he could do whatever the hell he wanted to do. And it’s, it’s good to be the king, and I’m thankful for that because Spellberg, he did not have studio executives pressuring him to make the movie that they wanted him to make. He was making the movie he wanted to make, and he wanted that 20 minutes to do something to the viewer.

00:33:51:09 – 00:33:53:28
Marty Morgan
And I think it succeeds magnificently.

00:33:54:00 – 00:34:07:00
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, for sure. Even though there are some historical inaccuracies in there, it was. It throws you in the action and it, if nothing else, at the end of it, it makes you want to find out more about what actually happened.

00:34:07:03 – 00:34:34:01
Marty Morgan
And if I had to indicate an overall greater good served by the movie, that’s got some historical accuracy problems. I think you’ve just identified it. And that is that that flashed that flicker to like that movie caused interest and enthusiasm to flicker to life at a time when interest and enthusiasm in the Second World War was dying off pretty quickly, that movie breathe a new breath of longevity and true enthusiasm for World War Two history.

00:34:34:01 – 00:34:45:12
Marty Morgan
And I just wish that Steven Spielberg would make another World War Two movies as man, that that gave me 20 solid years of work. I could use another 20.

00:34:45:15 – 00:34:49:09
Dan LeFebvre
There you go. Well, it’s Steven if you’re listening to this and yeah.

00:34:49:11 – 00:34:53:15
Marty Morgan
Yeah. No listening. So no, better get out there and get to work with me.

00:34:53:18 – 00:35:15:20
Dan LeFebvre
There you go. All right. Well, after speaking of the movie, going back to it after the invasion, we see these events lead to what is it? What is the main storyline and the title of the movie, Saving Private Ryan. And it starts when we see some of the bodies of the soldiers lying on the beach. And one of them it kind of the camera focuses in on is S Ryan.

00:35:15:22 – 00:35:32:17
Dan LeFebvre
And then from there were taken to rows of desks where women are typing away on typewriters. They’re writing letters to families back home, letting them know that their loved ones are gone. One of the women notices something, and then before long, she’s heading with three letters to one of the offices, and we see some of the names here.

00:35:32:17 – 00:35:59:29
Dan LeFebvre
It’s it goes up the chain to, Colonel Bryce to General George C Marshall, who is the United States Army’s chief of staff. And then we find out that there are three Ryan brothers who have died. Two of them died at Normandy, one in New Guinea. And Colonel Brice explains to General Marshall that the four Ryan brothers, three of them, have passed, but they were all used to be in the same company in the 29th Division.

00:36:00:01 – 00:36:16:09
Dan LeFebvre
But then when the Sullivan brothers died on the Juneau, the Ryan brothers were split up. We don’t get a lot more context around that. He just mentions that in a lot of dialog there. And then he says that the last one left alive. Or maybe he’s alive. We don’t really know. It’s James Ryan and he’s part of the 101st airborne.

00:36:16:11 – 00:36:43:27
Dan LeFebvre
He was dropped about 15 miles inland near Neuville, which is behind German lines. And then that sets in motion the whole plot of the movie. General Marshall pulls out a letter from President Abraham Lincoln, addressed to a woman named Mrs. Bixby in Boston that he’s apparently been keeping stashed away in a book in his office, and after reading the letter, he decides they’re going to go on this mission and try to bring Private Ryan home.

00:36:43:29 – 00:36:55:05
Dan LeFebvre
So that’s how the movie sets up this entire mission. That’s pretty much the whole, plot of the entire movie. How much of that actually happened?

00:36:55:07 – 00:37:27:19
Marty Morgan
All of that is based on effectively two tragic stories. And that’s the stories of the Niland brothers and the Sullivan brothers. It’s most closely associated with what happens to the Niland, because the Niland, the Niland brothers family story has a pretty significant rendezvous with destiny in the Normandy invasion, and now ends with four brothers Edward, Preston, Robert and Fritz.

00:37:27:21 – 00:37:58:24
Marty Morgan
Those four brothers were all serving in uniform. Edward was serving with the B-25 crew in in the Pacific. Preston was serving as a as a platoon leader in the fourth Infantry Division. He landed on D-Day, up in Ireland, was serving in the company of the five Parachute Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division, and Fritz was serving in in the 501st Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division.

00:37:58:26 – 00:38:32:17
Marty Morgan
The four brothers, they have. Their story comes to the significant point on June 6th, and that’s because Edward was thought to have been killed in action. He was actually his B-25 was shot down, and he was captured on May 16th, 1944, right before D-Day. Preston Niland, who landed on Utah Beach with the fourth Division, was actually killed in action in the fighting in front of the the Chris Peck Battery, the largest of the German coast artillery batteries in the Normandy invasion area.

00:38:32:20 – 00:39:02:09
Marty Morgan
He was killed in action on June 7th. Bob Niland, Robert, who, jumped in, jumped in with D company of the Five Oaks, fifth. He was killed in action on June 6th. I mentioned the three of them because the Mrs. Niland was therefore in a position to receive three telegrams informing her of how Edward was missing. Preston was dead, and Robert was dead.

00:39:02:12 – 00:39:27:12
Marty Morgan
Fritz was initially missing in action because when he jumped into Normandy, the process of the experience of scattering of airborne units was such that not everyone reported in quickly. And so there was a period of several days during which Fritz was not even fighting with, what, 130? It ended up mixed in with the 82nd Airborne Division, and he was therefore carried as missing in action briefly.

00:39:27:14 – 00:39:55:13
Marty Morgan
And so what was therefore potentially going to happen was that Mrs. Ireland, back in Tonawanda, New York, was going to receive for, she’s going to receive four telegrams announcing the deaths of her four sons. Although, as it turns out, Edward survived eventually. But, Preston and Bob were both killed in action. And for a period of time, it looked like Fritz was also missing.

00:39:55:13 – 00:40:23:24
Marty Morgan
Just like Edward was. The story is loosely based on that. That story was told. It was a story that was well known before the 50th anniversary of D-Day. But the story was was recounted in Stephen Ambrose’s book D-Day The Climactic Battle of World War Two. And it was that book which compiled the stories of a large number of people from the German side, from the US, from the British side, from the Canadian side.

00:40:23:26 – 00:40:59:19
Marty Morgan
It was that book that Steven Spielberg gave to his screenplay writer. Robert wrote it and said, I want you to give me a screenplay that incorporates all of the elements that make this book great. And, and Mr. Spielberg and wrote at both recognized that the Niland story was powerful. It has and has some parallels with and it is influenced by also the story of what happened to the five Sullivan brothers and those five brothers George, Francis, Joseph Madison, and Albert, or L.

00:40:59:21 – 00:41:26:29
Marty Morgan
Those brothers were all serving aboard the, the the Atlantic class light cruiser USS Juneau. And that ship was sunk on November 13th, 1942, during the Naval Battle of Guadalcanal and Pacific Theater. All five of those brothers were lost with the sinking of Juneau. It was permitted in US naval service prior to that moment, or brothers or family members served together.

00:41:27:01 – 00:41:52:22
Marty Morgan
In fact, there were brothers and there were husband. I’m sorry. There were fathers and sons serving on board the USS Arizona, for example. And here you have five brothers serving on the same light cruiser. It’s lost in action, and all five brothers are lost. They become, something that patriotic spirit in the United States in the aftermath of the naval battle, Guadalcanal rallies behind.

00:41:52:24 – 00:42:22:13
Marty Morgan
We begin to wreck. Another country begins to recognize that that was an especially, precious sacrifice for our family to have made for the war effort. And that’s why, you see, you see posters that feature the Sullivan brothers during the war and the combination of the story of the Sullivans and the story of the islands come together to form the story of Ryan’s and the movie Saving Private Ryan.

00:42:22:15 – 00:42:37:23
Dan LeFebvre
I can’t imagine what that would be like to receive telegrams like that. I mean, that is such a any loss is horrible, but if you think of five losing five brothers at the same time.

00:42:37:25 – 00:43:02:19
Marty Morgan
I agree with you because I love to meditate on this idea of how times today are so very, very different. The wars that we fight today are wars that are characterized by significantly lower most. You have, you know, states now has 50 years of wars that are fought with relatively like casualties and with effectively no interruption of the civilian economy.

00:43:02:19 – 00:43:24:02
Marty Morgan
So it’s possible to be an American living during a time of war from 1969 to present. And there’s a war being fought and you can live your life with without having any, without experiencing any effect from that war. It’s it’s possible to live in the United States today without knowing anyone currently serving in the United States military.

00:43:24:04 – 00:44:13:04
Marty Morgan
In other words, the experience of the modern era has insulated us from of a powerful truism of the experience, the American homefront experience of World War Two. And that is that almost every single family in this country, during that conflict, they experienced loss. On some level. It was either a husband, brother, father or son, or it was someone who was a part of your extended family or the husband, brother, father, son of the next door neighbor to to some level, I don’t believe anyone in this country was not affected by loss during the Second World War, and I believe that is that’s something that Americans share in the 21st century.

00:44:13:06 – 00:44:40:22
Marty Morgan
I believe that we have to struggle to attempt to empathize with that and to comprehend that we had people killed in action last week. It gets it gets what I believe. I’m trying not to be cynical, but it’s, I believe, a passing mention in the news cycle only to be buried quickly by the other palace intrigues and high drama that goes on on a daily basis in this country.

00:44:40:24 – 00:45:04:04
Marty Morgan
And I mentioned the point only because I, I, I like to I’m, I spend most of my time trying to comprehend as best I can the American experience in World War II, you and the American experience. Conflict today is completely different because it’s possible to live your life today, being totally detached from the fact that the United States is fighting a war.

00:45:04:06 – 00:45:10:29
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, you have to put yourself in a different mindset in order to really understand the time. Back then.

00:45:11:02 – 00:45:31:00
Marty Morgan
Everyone was affected to some extent, and if you didn’t lose someone in your family or or among your friends, you were affected by gas rationing, food rationing, or you were part of the wartime economy to some extent, everyone, no one was overlooked in being affected by that conflict. And I believe that Saving Private Ryan addresses that subject powerfully.

00:45:31:00 – 00:45:38:21
Marty Morgan
But I creating the fictional Ryan family based on the violence and and inspired partly by the solvent.

00:45:38:23 – 00:46:06:15
Dan LeFebvre
Speaking of the characters there, I’m curious about some of the other characters that we see in the movie. You mentioned Miller, Captain John Miller, Tom Hanks, his character, being based on a few different people, but there are eight men in the squad that are sent out to find Ryan. There is Captain John Miller. Then there’s Sergeant Horvath, there’s Private Ryan, Private Jackson, Private Mellish, Private Capasso and the T-4 medic Wade and Corporal Upham.

00:46:06:18 – 00:46:09:20
Dan LeFebvre
Are those characters based on real people?

00:46:09:22 – 00:46:49:09
Marty Morgan
I would say they’re influenced by real people to certain extents. Because for example, in the film, the bar gunner, Private Rye, Ben, not Ryan, but Rye, Ben Ryan has painted on the back of his model 1941 field jacket. The words I think it says Brooklyn, New York, USA. And that was partly inspired by a man who actually fought on June 6th and survived D-Day, the late Harold Baumgarten, who painted a big star of David on the back of his jacket and put Brooklyn, USA on it.

00:46:49:12 – 00:47:36:18
Marty Morgan
And and reading Stephen Ambrose’s book Robert wrote at and I believe Mr. Spielberg had noticed it as well, had noticed that in the Baumgarten story that there was that painting on there. So there are elements of these characters that draw inspiration from people who actually lived. And then I should just mention that it’s an interesting series of choices that they chose to represent the American melting pot and our primary cast, a cast of characters, and Private Ryan, they also chose to provide some to serve certain Hollywood war movie tropes, and that you’ve got a Jewish guy and you’ve got an Italian, and you’ve got a guy that’s a mild mannered schoolteacher, and then you’ve

00:47:36:25 – 00:48:05:17
Marty Morgan
you’ve got guys that were kind of at each other’s throats, but they also their risked their lives to save each other in combat. It’s those are some, some core Hollywood war movie tropes in and of themselves. And then you’ve got, since you’re talking about Private Ribbon, the bar gunner, you’ve got the wisecracking louse bob mouth, which is something that, I mean, you can you can recognize that same character in just about every war movie that’s ever been made to get to a certain extent.

00:48:05:20 – 00:48:40:01
Marty Morgan
And so the, the this core group of U.S. Army Rangers with corporal up on the plaque type is thrown in, the unlikely character among Rangers, none of whom, none of whom look very Ranger, in my opinion, but whatever. They’re they’re all serving some, some standard Hollywood tropes about characterization, and they’re also simultaneously partially inspired by actual events, by actual characters who lived as a part of a beat invasion.

00:48:40:04 – 00:48:58:27
Dan LeFebvre
So, again, similar to the opening sequence, we have characters that are essentially composite characters that are trying to capture the essence of what it might have been like, not necessarily these. This was an actual squad of soldiers that were tasked to do this actual thing.

00:48:59:00 – 00:49:24:25
Marty Morgan
Right? Because the process of compositing those characters gives the filmmakers so much more freedom, because if you try to tell the actual story, you will get mired down endlessly in actuality and being held to people holding up the ruler of historical authenticity against your story. And that’s why I respect the filmmakers decision to create a fictitious storyline that’s inspired by actual events.

00:49:24:27 – 00:49:45:26
Dan LeFebvre
While there’s two events I want to ask you about, and this is after this squad makes their way to Neuville in search of Private Ryan. The first is Vin Diesel’s character. When, Private Capasso, he’s hit by a sniper. And then Barry. Jack. Sorry. Barry Pepper’s character, Private Jackson. He sneaks around to get an angle on the German sniper.

00:49:45:26 – 00:50:17:20
Dan LeFebvre
And from the we can see from the German’s perspective, we see him looking for the American soldiers among the rubble, and he sees Private Jackson’s rifle just in time to see him fire. And the shot goes right through the German sniper scope and hits him in the eye as one. And then the other event is when Paul Giamatti’s character, Sergeant Hill, he’s sitting down to try to get something out of his boot, and he accidentally knocks over a board, hits a brick wall, knocks down the entire wall, and then surprise, there’s a room full of German soldiers there and they just yell at each other.

00:50:17:20 – 00:50:41:10
Dan LeFebvre
They’re yelling at each other back and forth. Before then, the Germans are shot by Ted Danson’s version of Captain Hammer and some other soldiers. They’re both of those events to me. When I was watching this, it just seemed like these are movie moments that could never have actually happened. That seemingly impossible shot. And then a surprise stalemate between two groups of enemy soldiers on either side of the wall.

00:50:41:12 – 00:50:44:10
Dan LeFebvre
Are there any stories of things like that actually happening?

00:50:44:12 – 00:51:11:14
Marty Morgan
There are. There are a few instances of our troops and their troops being hopelessly mixed in together. I’m thinking of a of a, a story that was told to me by a veteran, the 507th Parachute Infantry, 82nd Airborne Division, who was trying to cross a hedgerow and hedgerows in Normandy are very dense there. They’re thick branches.

00:51:11:16 – 00:51:38:17
Marty Morgan
They’re, there are a lot of storms and hedgerows making it quite difficult to to push through, put your way through a hedgerow. And this, this soldier named Johnny Marr was. He was a lieutenant and got me 5 or 7. He was trying to push his way through a hedgerow. And as he was pushing his way through, coming from the right side to the left side, there was a German trying to push through at the same spot from the left side to the right side, and the two of them met each other right in the middle of this hedgerow.

00:51:38:20 – 00:52:02:29
Marty Morgan
I think of that sometimes, because that provides the kind of, combat tension that I think war movies love. They feed on that sort of a combat tension, the no random moment where something like that happens, as you see depicted with that moment in the film when when Sergeant Hill tries to he I think he says he’s got a burr and his boot, and that’s why he leans up against the wall to take his boot off.

00:52:03:01 – 00:52:24:06
Marty Morgan
And it just I giggle sometimes when I think about that cast. That cast is so wildly exceptional and great and weird ways. Ted Danson as an airborne officer, Ted Danson, who was, I don’t know how old was at the time, but he was too old to portray a U.S. Army airborne officer. But whatever. He may be your division commander.

00:52:24:06 – 00:52:52:06
Marty Morgan
Original commander or a division commander, maybe, but certainly not a company commander. Nevertheless, Ted Danson plays the role very nicely, I think. And then that you’ve got him there with the person who I think is one of the finest living actors today, Paul Giamatti, who has this bit throwaway role. He’s in there. I have to remind myself at times that Paul Giamatti was in Saving Private Ryan, and he doesn’t really fit the form of your average airborne infantryman.

00:52:52:09 – 00:53:18:02
Marty Morgan
Lee looks a little bit too well served at the dinner table. The stuff that that role. But then again, almost all of them kind of do in the movie. Nevertheless. Giamatti’s good. Danson’s good. It’s all weird. The whole scene, it provides something that Spielberg needs. I mean, there’s, there’s literally a formula to making the perfect action film and I don’t know that it’s fair to describe Private Ryan.

00:53:18:02 – 00:53:49:06
Marty Morgan
It’s just being a pure action film. It’s more than that somehow. It’s it’s suspense, it’s action, it’s drama. It’s it’s a different genre than just your standard action movie. The, the cornerstone that we always point to as perfection in action filmmaking is movie aliens, the sequel from 1986. And there’s pacing to the way that you deliver action and within that formula, and you can see how in private Ryan, they were living according to that formula.

00:53:49:06 – 00:54:11:22
Marty Morgan
Where you go, you go, you open with a bang with the big Omaha Beach scene. Then you pull back and you begin the process of exposition, and you begin laying out your story. And then and you lay out what you need. So you divide a movie into three things. And the beginning, presents what what’s needed, what has to happen.

00:54:11:24 – 00:54:49:00
Marty Morgan
The center point provides tension and drama, and you get you see that clearly in private Ryan and the scene we’re discussing right now, it’s into that center phase when drama is needed and it gives you a nice big, fat battle sequence. That’s totally different than the opening battle sequence of the movie. And it’s and it’s also showing you how combat and comedy is often at close quarters, that the quality and character of that combat is often under unpredictable circumstances, the evidence of which is the Paul Giamatti moment when the wall collapses and there are Germans on the other side.

00:54:49:03 – 00:55:17:29
Marty Morgan
And that then I we’re, we’re now at the point where I have to address the elephant in the room, because you mentioned the Barry Pepper, sniper sequence where the bullet comes through his rifle scope, which is based in fact, it’s based on something that reportedly happened, although it didn’t happen during the Second World War. That is a story that is well remembered from a sniper versus sniper duel that occurred in Vietnam.

00:55:18:01 – 00:55:50:02
Marty Morgan
There’s, there was a sniper by the name of Carlos, half Cock, who wrote a book called Marine Sniper and Half Cock related that exact story of of being stalked by an opposing North Vietnamese sniper who might have been a Russian sniper. It’s just never entirely clear. But he’s being stalked by an opponent’s sniper, and he catches a glint off of his sniper scope and fires a shot and travels right down the the the scope tube and strikes the opponent sniper through his eye socket.

00:55:50:04 – 00:55:55:18
Marty Morgan
So they borrowed something from Vietnam to make that moment and a World War two movie.

00:55:55:20 – 00:55:59:15
Dan LeFebvre
Wow. I would have just assumed it was completely made up.

00:55:59:17 – 00:56:28:10
Marty Morgan
No it’s not. There are some questions about whether or not it actually happened the way that it was reported it. And I read Carlos Hecox book when I was a kid, and I loved it. And I don’t want to question anything that that man wrote. But the problem with Jackson character and Private Ryan is that there’s a it’s believed that it would it would be a 1 in 1,000,000 shot for the bullets trajectory to align perfectly with that scope tube.

00:56:28:13 – 00:56:51:26
Marty Morgan
And also glass decelerates bullets very effectively. A glass, a particularly thin glass is not good at stopping them, but it’s really good at decelerating bullets. And so there’s a lingering question about whether or not a bullet would be able to travel down the entire length of the tube of a sniper scope, with objectives and ocular eyepieces on it.

00:56:51:28 – 00:57:15:26
Marty Morgan
I would just refer anybody listening. Do have a look at, MythBusters tested this twice as one of the cooler episodes of MythBusters, and they were concluding that the their conclusion was the bullet couldn’t get all the way through a sniper scope. Who knows whether or not those circumstances played themselves out in Carlos happy cops experience?

00:57:15:28 – 00:57:48:26
Marty Morgan
That’s less important. What I think is important for this discussion, though, is to say that incident is based on something that happened in Vietnam, and I now have to address this issue of the sniper in private. Ryan, because that’s Barry Peppers character. Jackson, is a complete abuse of power and a misrepresentation on every level of the way that snipers functioned within the United States Army in the European theater of operation during the Second World War.

00:57:48:28 – 00:57:59:28
Marty Morgan
And in addition to that, he’s carrying effectively a Frankenstein of a rifle that did not actually exist during World War Two.

00:58:00:00 – 00:58:06:16
Dan LeFebvre
Really. So so there really would not have been a way that he could have shot that because the rifle didn’t exist to begin with.

00:58:06:18 – 00:58:27:00
Marty Morgan
Right. Well, it’s weird because, I mean, it’s almost like the rifle, Jackson’s rifle. And Private Ryan is the perfect metaphor for Private Ryan. It’s very tough because the rifle kind of exists, but it doesn’t exist in the way that it’s depicted in the movie, and it doesn’t function the way that it’s depicted as functioning in the movie.

00:58:27:02 – 00:58:55:12
Marty Morgan
First of all, the US military really didn’t have a formal sniper approach. During World War Two, snipers were treated more as a squad designated marksman, more than anything with a a level of informality that you didn’t see during World War one. During World War one, we had actual sniper training, and we dissolved all of that sniper training in the interwar period, and when World War Two started, we didn’t actually create a sniper program, and that didn’t really even exist until Vietnam.

00:58:55:15 – 00:59:33:08
Marty Morgan
We had sniper rifles. Yes. But we didn’t have a formal program during by which we trained people to be these precise marksmen, as they’re depicted in Private Eye and, all the rifle did was, was provide a tool that was capable of delivering improved levels of rifle, rifle marksmanship. Now onto the rifle. So the way that the rifle is depicted in the movie for most of the scene is because if you look closely in the movie, you will see the Jackson character carrying two different rifles with two different scopes.

00:59:33:10 – 00:59:58:05
Marty Morgan
The scope that appears in almost all of the scenes. So there’s basically one continuity era error I think might maybe even two, two moments where they show him carrying a different rifle. And I think that’s just a little continuity error on the film. So that’s not really an issue that’s depicting him carrying the model. 19 03A4 sniper rifle, which existed during World War two and was used by the U.S. Army.

00:59:58:08 – 01:00:26:19
Marty Morgan
But it depicts him using it with an M82 scope. But that’s the one that sneaks in a couple of times. That scope was not used by the US Army during World War two, but that’s the rifle that only shows up twice that I think of during the war that I can think of during the movie. The scope that is on the rifle and 90% of the shots of the movie is the internal eight power scope, which was not used by the United States Army during the Second World War.

01:00:26:21 – 01:00:49:26
Marty Morgan
It was used by the United States Marine Corps in the Pacific Theater of Operations only, and then when it was used by the Marine Corps, it was used on a totally different version of the 1903 rifle. So the 1903 rifle was adopted by U.S. military forces in the year 1903. It served the World War One. It served importantly throughout World War Two, and it had a big role on D-Day.

01:00:49:28 – 01:01:16:21
Marty Morgan
The Marine Corps and the Army used that as their platform for sniper rifles, but the two guns were quite a bit different. They use different scopes first and foremost, and the Army version was different than the art, just the rifle. Not even talking about the scope, but the rifle itself was. The Army’s rifle was quite a bit different than the marine course rifle, and the Army rifle used a totally different scope, and they the right.

01:01:16:21 – 01:01:40:09
Marty Morgan
The Army scope was the 70 3B1, which was only a four power scope. It was a was a little bit weak in terms of magnification. And it’s got the scope tube itself is pretty modest in dimension. I think it’s one inch in diameter overall. And it, it has an ocular eyepiece where you would look through, but it doesn’t have the objective eyepiece.

01:01:40:16 – 01:02:24:20
Marty Morgan
It’s not bigger. Whereas the Marine Corps version, there’s a big, long, objective eyepiece on the scope, and it looks gratuitously a lot more like a powerful sniper scope. And and my understanding is that on the set, when they brought out an actual version of the U.S. Army in 1903, a four sniper rifle equipped with the appropriate and correct M 70 3B1 scope that apparently Mr. Spielberg looked at it and went, that doesn’t look very much like a sniper rifle, and that they looked at they did some photographs and that he saw the Marine Corps version, which is the 1903 rifle equipped with the eight power U.

01:02:24:20 – 01:02:57:29
Marty Morgan
Nurdles scope. Anyone? That’s what. That’s a sniper rifle. But can’t we get that scope? And so they took that scope, put it on the Army version of the sniper rifle, which was, for the record, different than the Marine Corps version, sniper rifle. And that’s the scope that you see Jackson hunting and shooting with throughout the movie, except for two occasions that I caught, and that is, of course, a version of the oh three sniper rifle that did not exist at all anywhere during the second World War.

01:02:58:01 – 01:03:25:16
Marty Morgan
And the scope that he’s using is something that did not exist, being used by U.S. Army forces in the European Theater of Operations during the Second World War. So for the keen eyed student of World War two, history and small arms and things like that, the Jackson character is something you kind of have to shrug your shoulders and just learn to live with, because he’s wielding this rifle that is a fantasy.

01:03:25:18 – 01:03:49:21
Marty Morgan
And then come on, guys, left handed sniper in World War two. That’s not the way the world works. 75 years ago, if you were a left handed shooter 75 years ago and you entered the army, you suddenly overnight became a right handed shooter. They really didn’t provide accommodations for people shooting left handed. But you’ve got Jackson there with the sniper rifle that didn’t exist during World War Two.

01:03:49:21 – 01:04:03:22
Marty Morgan
You shooting it is a left handed, marksman. And so those those are little bumps in the road of authenticity that create heartburn or the purest of World War Two history.

01:04:03:25 – 01:04:17:00
Dan LeFebvre
I loved what you said. Where like it’s just a great example of the movie overall. It’s it’s all a composite. Everything kind of thrown together. And that character is just a great it just continues the tradition.

01:04:17:03 – 01:04:19:27
Marty Morgan
Yeah, it’s based on a true story, but it’s obviously.

01:04:20:00 – 01:04:21:16
Dan LeFebvre
There you go. Yeah, exactly.

01:04:21:18 – 01:04:43:15
Marty Morgan
Oh shut up. But I love the sniper rifle thing. I like the fact that they were at least paying attention enough to, to, to depict the diversity of weapons army. Everyone. So within the squad of Rangers to include them the Clarke type of stop them that’s tagging along. You’ve got and you’ve got the diversity of firepower represented.

01:04:43:15 – 01:05:14:15
Marty Morgan
And then when you bring in like when the Matt Damon Ryan character comes in the 101st Airborne Division, paratroopers are brought in, you see another weapon come in, and that’s the 19 1930 caliber machine gun. Yeah. In other words, you’re seeing this diversity of the firearms that were used by US forces on D-Day. And I kind of like that because I find that a large number of the people that come on my church, for example, that they imagine that all Americans landed on June 6th carrying the M1, they shot rifle and that everybody fought with that.

01:05:14:22 – 01:05:41:00
Marty Morgan
But in private, Ryan, instead, you get you have someone with a sniper rifle, albeit wrong. You have Sergeant Horvath, four back carrying the M1 car. B although the sergeant probably carried something different. You’ve got Captain Miller carrying the m1A1 Thompson submachine gun. You’ve got ribbon carrying the 1918 A2 Browning Automatic Rifle. And then you have what, then you have is it three men armed with the M1 rifle.

01:05:41:00 – 01:06:16:00
Marty Morgan
You’ve got Capasso. Upham is carrying an M1 rifle and then Mellish just carrying an M1 rifle. And I like the fact that they’re representing the diversity of firearms that were being used during the era of, of the D-Day invasion. I just wish that that Captain Miller and Sergeant Horvath had switched weapons, because you would typically see an officer carrying the M1 carbine, and you would typically see a technical sergeant, carrying the Thompson submachine go.

01:06:16:03 – 01:06:17:27
Dan LeFebvre
Really? Why is that?

01:06:18:00 – 01:06:37:08
Marty Morgan
It’s just basically the way that the T&E, the table of organization and equipment for U.S. Army fighting units in the European theater, it authorized who would carry a weapon. And it it differed a corn according to the type of unit you were in, whether you were an infantry unit or a supply unit, or, for example, a Ranger unit.

01:06:37:10 – 01:07:00:14
Marty Morgan
And it off it typically authorized officers and ground units, non airborne carrying the M1 carbine. But you know, it’s Tom Hanks character John Miller carrying the Thompson. And then the Sergeant Horvath character armed with the Thompson. But I don’t know Horvath is carrying the carbine. Miller is carrying the Thompson. That’s right.

01:07:00:17 – 01:07:37:27
Dan LeFebvre
I would never have thought about who’s carrying who’s carrying what and whether or not that would have been correct or not. But it’s I like I, I do like that you pointed out the diversity there because that is something that I noticed when I saw the movie. Like it. You’re getting well. Well, again, I mean, it might be a, you know, a bit of a trope as far as the characters themselves are concerned and throwing it, you know, like you’re talking about, you know, you have the loudmouth character and you have, you know, the the different tropes that you get in a lot of war movies, but you also get a pretty good diversity

01:07:37:27 – 01:08:02:08
Dan LeFebvre
of the types of weapons that they’re carrying. And I, I like that about about the movie that, I hadn’t seen a lot of other I’m specifically thinking of, like The Longest Day. And in that where it doesn’t really focus on a single squad with that sort of diversity, I guess, is what I’m trying to say there.

01:08:02:11 – 01:08:24:20
Marty Morgan
Yeah, I absolutely love the fact that the movie did that, because in it, there’s one larger point that I could make about Saving Private Ryan that is that I believe that it is, to date, the greatest achievement and the authentic presentation of a World War Two subject. I’m not saying the movie’s perfect. I’m not even saying that it’s excellent.

01:08:24:20 – 01:08:28:28
Marty Morgan
It’s got lots of problems, but it’s the best that I’ve seen yet.

01:08:29:01 – 01:08:37:27
Dan LeFebvre
End of the day, it is still a movie. It’s not a documentary, so you’re never going to have something that’s going to be 100% authentic. That’s not what movies are.

01:08:37:29 – 01:09:03:22
Marty Morgan
And I believe that what they did achieve in that film, in terms of authenticity, was on such a higher plane than movies that were around it, that came before it, that came at it. I think that what they achieved in terms of authenticity spoke powerfully to a certain audience of people, that the world of World War Two reenacting was basically it basically came alive after that movie was released.

01:09:03:25 – 01:09:28:07
Marty Morgan
And I think it’s because there were people that appreciated the effort that they put into creating and authenticity that you haven’t seen in previous films, and that is I have to acknowledge respectfully the fact that that Mr. Spielberg, turns he turns over issues of authenticity to someone in the film business that that is and has a pretty good track record of delivering authenticity.

01:09:28:09 – 01:09:58:10
Marty Morgan
And that’s got Gale by. He was in charge of training the actors. He was in charge of, helping create the atmosphere of authenticity that generally accompanies the film. And while that atmosphere is not perfect, it’s pretty darn good. And I think that the the goodness up that, created a lot of enthusiasm among a younger audience that probably would not have been reached by World War Two history otherwise.

01:09:58:13 – 01:10:16:27
Dan LeFebvre
Now, there are a lot of iconic scenes from the movie, but I want to ask you about one of the scenes that really stood out to me, and that was the dog tag scene. The men in this squad are given a bag of dog tags to see if Ryan’s name is in there, and we see the men sitting down.

01:10:16:28 – 01:10:38:09
Dan LeFebvre
They start going through them. Before long, they’re joking around and almost being playful about it as they’re going through the dog tags. And then meanwhile, you can see other members of the airborne are watching on, and it’s Wade, the medic, who stops the other men. He reminds them they’re not poker chip. Each dog tag represents a fallen comrade in arms.

01:10:38:11 – 01:11:06:19
Dan LeFebvre
And this scene really stood out to me because I saw it as a turning point. You could clearly see that these soldiers were becoming, or already were desensitized to, the events that were going on around them, as they’re joking around with these dog tags, I can’t help but think maybe just, you know, a few days earlier, before D-Day, they might have had a very different reaction to sifting through a bag of dog tags.

01:11:06:19 – 01:11:21:23
Dan LeFebvre
It kind of shows how the events that they went through in those few days changed them. As people. Was this sort of desensitization common among soldiers in the days after D-Day?

01:11:21:26 – 01:11:53:23
Marty Morgan
I believe that it was. And although I’ve not been in the military, I feel like I have an understanding of it to a certain level in that I have seen how gallows humor typically, accompanies military units as they experience combat, and that the deeper they get into it, the more the gallows humor tends to come out. And that scene does something very powerful in that it humanizes the lost, in combat on June 6th, 1944.

01:11:53:25 – 01:12:31:14
Marty Morgan
And it also sets the stage for this this daunting task of trying to find one person. And I would just if I could sidetrack for one quick moment, I would say that if that scene had been turned over to a lesser actor, I think the scene would have fallen flat. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out who’s the best actor in the film, saving Private Ryan, and I believe it might actually be Giovanni Ribisi playing Wade the medic, because in that scene, he he just expresses subtlety in the way that he realizes that the guys are laughing and joking a little bit too much, and that there being a little inappropriate

01:12:31:14 – 01:12:51:28
Marty Morgan
for circumstances and the way that he rushes over and he snatches it from him, I just feel like his acting performance in that scene is excellent. I feel like his acting performance in the entire movie is excellent and acting and I, I he’s in another movie that I really love and it Miracle Lost in Translation, where he plays a totally different kind of character.

01:12:52:00 – 01:13:05:24
Marty Morgan
He’s just a really good actor. I really felt like he brought that scene to life. And Private Ryan, although the scene is completely historically inaccurate on every level, and it really gets under my skin and drives me nuts like I.

01:13:05:27 – 01:13:07:11
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, that was that was a that was a big turn.

01:13:07:11 – 01:13:24:04
Marty Morgan
There was, wasn’t it? Yeah. I’m conflicted. I am about this film because it’s so great. And at the same time I’m like, yeah. Where would you ever have one guy that just like, I’ve got 50 dog tags in this bag of people I’ve just been picking up over the last few days?

01:13:24:07 – 01:13:28:26
Dan LeFebvre
Oh, yeah. The chopper pilot, I think it was, was the one that that threw him the bag. Yeah.

01:13:29:03 – 01:13:30:14
Marty Morgan
And the glider pilot. Yeah.

01:13:30:17 – 01:13:31:10
Dan LeFebvre
Oh, yeah. Glider.

01:13:31:10 – 01:13:54:05
Marty Morgan
And he’s like, yeah, here’s here’s a bunch of dog tags. There was a general. There was a general order in place that, for combat casualties, you would not separate the dog tags from the casualties, because if you the moment everyone has two dog tags. But this was before the military was practicing. This, was tradition of wearing one around your neck and one tied in the laces of your boots.

01:13:54:05 – 01:14:24:06
Marty Morgan
That’s a big, thing. Not a World War two thing. So everyone had two tags suspended from a chain around their neck. You didn’t. You didn’t separate the tags from the bite. And that’s because those tags served a very specific purpose. And that those tags guaranteed that when the unit that came in that was responsible from the point that you would you were killed on the battlefield from that point forward, another unit was responsible for you, the unit you were assigned to up to your death.

01:14:24:06 – 01:14:53:03
Marty Morgan
That unit was in, was responsible for you while you were alive. And if you were killed, they were responsible for processing some paperwork about you. But your body then became fell into the responsibility of mortuary services and graves registration units. And those units had to collect remains, identify remains, and then keep the identification with those remains. And in order to do that, you had to have both tags with the remains.

01:14:53:05 – 01:15:17:10
Marty Morgan
There are extenuating circumstances. There were times when when human bodies were so shattered. As for the use of modern weapons that you no longer had a net for the dog tag to hang from, or you had body parts that were separated from the whole, and under those circumstances, yes, you would lose track of the tags, but when you had a complete set of remains, the tags, both tags stayed with those remains.

01:15:17:13 – 01:15:39:07
Marty Morgan
And that’s why that scene makes me kind of roll my eyes a little bit, because I can see how that scene gave them, a moment of tension in the story that they needed. But I also have to go. They would. That would never happen. Those tags had to stay with the bodies because they stayed with the bodies and the graves.

01:15:39:09 – 01:15:46:13
Marty Morgan
Registration mortuary services guys then knew what to do with the body and to identify that body.

01:15:46:15 – 01:16:06:02
Dan LeFebvre
Well, so were they with would they basically follow me with those divisions, basically following the front lines or how I’m curious how how that worked on that side? Because that is just a it’s a morbid job, but it’s a massive one to keep track of all that.

01:16:06:04 – 01:16:10:12
Marty Morgan
I can’t imagine the nightmares that those men must have had after the war.

01:16:10:15 – 01:16:12:03
Dan LeFebvre
Oh, I can’t, I mean, yeah.

01:16:12:05 – 01:16:36:29
Marty Morgan
Yeah, the men whose jobs it was to collect casualties on the battlefield, take them to a central point where they were being buried, and collect off, collect up, off and incomplete sets of remains. That that must have been traumatizing. And there’s been a great deal written about about that experience in the last few years. And that’s all extremely important and compelling.

01:16:36:29 – 01:17:07:03
Marty Morgan
And, in, in my personal work on one story that I’ve dealt with, I, I’ve had to investigate what happened with the specific graves registration unit and how they, after the fact, recovered the remains of men who were killed in action. And there’s footage associated with it. There’s footage of the men of the 603rd Quartermaster Graves Registration Company collecting bodies, that were that had been temporarily buried and re burying them.

01:17:07:03 – 01:17:52:26
Marty Morgan
And the footage? I can barely watch the footage. It’s so gruesome. And that was the everyday experience of uniform service of the United States Army for the men of these units. And, And I should just throw in one plug for them. I spent a lot of time tracking people who were killed in Normandy, tracking how they were killed, where they were killed, and where they ended up buried, and what overwhelmed me is that the men from the quartermaster graves registration companies and the mortuary services companies, those men carried out what I consider to be an extremely challenging mission, and they carried it out in an analog era of forms with carbon paper and

01:17:52:26 – 01:18:20:12
Marty Morgan
in triplicate and, and in the there with no digital assistance whatsoever. And they carried out that job with so much accuracy that and studying this subject intensely for about two, 20 years now, I have found very few mistakes, and I think all respect needs to be given to the men who picked up our war dead, made sure that they were identified, and made sure that they had a proper burial.

01:18:20:14 – 01:18:25:29
Dan LeFebvre
Well, yeah. Yeah, that’s that’s a side of it that I had never thought about before.

01:18:26:02 – 01:18:50:03
Marty Morgan
And that’s deep. So great for that subject makes its way into the grand narrative of Saving Private Ryan. And that’s almost I hate to criticize the moment because it at least addresses the subject, the subject. If the subject made it into Private Ryan, that’s basically a guarantee that here we are, more than 20 years later, people are still going to be talking about it, because that’s what blows me away about this movie.

01:18:50:05 – 01:19:22:09
Marty Morgan
It this I remember when I first started tour guiding. I remember thinking like 15 years ago, I remember I remember thinking that, I think interest is probably going to begin fading and, and I certainly won’t be able to find much of a livelihood in leading tours to Normandy, certainly not after about 2002, 2003. And here I am almost a decade later, and there’s more interest now than there was ten years ago.

01:19:22:12 – 01:19:25:24
Marty Morgan
I think Saving Private Ryan is to blame for a lot of that.

01:19:25:26 – 01:19:30:06
Dan LeFebvre
And to think that and but at the same time, it’s a conflict that.

01:19:30:09 – 01:19:47:19
Marty Morgan
You know, that movie did more than any book that has ever been written, any book that I will ever write, any book that smarter people than me will ever write. That movie did more than any of us ever could. To ensure the continuing popularity of that subject.

01:19:47:21 – 01:20:11:18
Dan LeFebvre
I want to shift a little bit to some of the geographical side, because we’re given some names in the movie, but we never get a lot of geographical context about the squad’s search for Private Ryan. They start on Omaha Beach, and then from there they head to what the movie says is behind enemy lines to Neuville, where the dog tag scene was.

01:20:11:21 – 01:20:40:26
Dan LeFebvre
And then I did a I look on online and as the crow flies, it’s about 21 miles or 34km between those two locations. And then from there they go to Rommel, which is on, the murder at River. And that’s another four miles or 6.5km. Since the movie makes multiple mentions that Neuville is behind enemy lines and that was their first destination, I can only assume that all of this is taking place behind enemy lines.

01:20:40:26 – 01:21:02:20
Dan LeFebvre
The entire time. Of course, there’s already other soldiers that mentioned the airborne who were already at Neuville, so it’s not like this rescue squad is the only Allied soldiers behind enemy lines. But can you give us a little more geographical context about where the German lines were in relation to these places that we see referenced in the movie?

01:21:02:22 – 01:21:26:09
Marty Morgan
Sure. The reason that they choose Neuville for the film, it’s there. What they’re doing is they’re giving a nod to the 10 million Oplan, which is the place where Bob Niland was killed on June 6th. And so they’re referencing that. Which brings us a little bit of a point of convergence with the story, the true story upon which the the fictional story is based.

01:21:26:12 – 01:22:03:00
Marty Morgan
But, Neuville is to the north and west of Sigma agrees. It’s a McBeal, as you have already calculated. Is pretty far from Omaha Beach. It is much, much closer to Utah Beach. It’s only about ten miles inland from Utah Beach. Maybe a little more, maybe like 11 miles inland from Utah Beach. But it is not located conveniently close to Omaha, which is why you have to suspend reality a little bit just to go with what Steven Spielberg and Robert wrote out want you to go with here.

01:22:03:00 – 01:22:30:14
Marty Morgan
And that is that this group of rangers that land on Omaha Beach at Doc Green Sector are then set far behind the lines behind Utah Beach to look for a missing paratrooper. Because the practical reality at work here is that this would have been a physical impossibility. And the reason I say, the reason I say that is that between Omaha and Utah, there’s this one town called Carrington.

01:22:30:17 – 01:22:50:11
Marty Morgan
Carrington was the point at which, the U.S. Army Fifth Corps landing on Omaha and the US Army Separate Corps landing on Utah were supposed to come together. They were supposed to come together late in the day on June 6th. Maybe on June 7th. They did not come together, for almost a week. It took time. That was not part of the plan.

01:22:50:13 – 01:23:26:24
Marty Morgan
But it’s not until 101st Airborne Division captures Carrington. It’s not even to occur that, actually. And that happens on June 11th. It’s not until after June 11th that Omaha Beach and Utah Beach are able to link up on their flanks. So for a group of rangers who landed on Omaha Beach on D-Day to make their way to the area, the drop zone area behind Utah Beach, I would challenge is a physical impossibility because it would have caused it would have called for them to not go straight as the crow flies 2020 miles, but more like 30 miles.

01:23:26:27 – 01:24:14:00
Marty Morgan
Circuitous. Lee is following terrain because the terrain in the area between Omaha and Utah is the area where there it’s, it’s a tributary area for several river systems. In fact, the dove River, the vier River, the river, those are all flowing into the English channels in the area between Utah and Omaha. So these guys would have not only had to have gone through enemy territory, but they would have had to have covered enemy territory, crossing rivers, going well out of their way to go, to move across flooded marsh areas because the Germans had seen to it that there was flooding that was beyond just the normal seasonal flooding in the area in

01:24:14:00 – 01:24:43:05
Marty Morgan
the tributary, the mouth area of the vier, the toilet and the dove and those men would been have had to have made their way without contact with either the enemy or other Americans for mile after mile after mile. And as we know from the film, they do contact other Americans if they do contact the enemy. But I believe it would have been physically impossible for them to move from the area behind Omaha to the drop zone area and land from Utah Beach.

01:24:43:07 – 01:24:50:26
Dan LeFebvre
That helps a lot. Put that into a little more perspective. Again, sounds like it was a a story decision.

01:24:50:29 – 01:25:24:08
Marty Morgan
Yeah, it’s a it’s a storytelling decision, as was the creation of the fictional village Rommel. That is a village that does not exist. That village was created just for the purposes of storytelling, and that what happens in that village is to an extent based on two, maybe three actual events. But there were no 101st Airborne Division Division paratroopers that were sent to babysit a bridge at a village called Rommel because there was no and is no village of Rommel and not interesting.

01:25:24:08 – 01:25:27:15
Dan LeFebvre
So yeah, they are a lot more made up.

01:25:27:18 – 01:25:44:24
Marty Morgan
Yeah, I respect the fact that they wanted to tell a story. They wanted that story to be a D-Day story. They wanted to do it with a level of authenticity that was unprecedented. And they did all of that. But to get there, they had to massage the actuality of the D-Day invasion, and they had to create a few things.

01:25:44:27 – 01:26:03:25
Marty Morgan
And they had they ended up, I think, unintentionally distorting a few things like, I’ve I’ve not gotten down in the weeds of picking out minor little authenticity details like how Spielberg had beach obstacles on Omaha Beach backwards. They were facing the wrong way. They were facing out to the water when they’re supposed to be facing the bluffs. I’m not.

01:26:03:27 – 01:26:28:00
Marty Morgan
I’m not carping on minor issues like like that. However, I mean, I know I mentioned the bunker and how the bunker on Omaha Beach was wrong, but, it there going to be little unintentional authenticity slip ups from time to time in a film. But then they also had to make some major decisions where they consciously departed from the actuality of the historical record.

01:26:28:06 – 01:26:32:14
Marty Morgan
And they certainly did that with the creation of a fictional village, remote.

01:26:32:16 – 01:26:54:09
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. Well, well, since you mention it, because that was something that I wanted to ask because according to the movie, that’s again where they find Private Ryan, and Captain Miller gives him the bad news about his brothers. But then Ryan, Matt Damon plays, Private Ryan and he refuses to leave. He says something to the effect of, you can tell my mother that when you found me, I was here.

01:26:54:16 – 01:27:13:24
Dan LeFebvre
And with the only brothers I have left, there’s no way I’m abandoning this bridge. And then we find out from the man in charge, Corporal Henderson, that Allied planes from the 82nd took out all the bridges across the murder at. Except for two of them. One of them, alone, and then the other one that they’re at now.

01:27:13:28 – 01:27:38:24
Dan LeFebvre
And their orders are to defend that bridge at all costs. So we’re left with, Captain Miller making the decision that they’re going to keep the squad there in order to help hold the bridge and then take Ryan back afterwards. Is the assumption. But you mentioned that there there were possibly a couple of stories that this was based on.

01:27:38:27 – 01:28:20:13
Marty Morgan
Yeah. And I would just say that they androgynous Lee kind of inform what’s going on with Rommel and the 101st Airborne Division troopers. They, they borrow a little bit from an action that the 82nd Airborne Division is involved in, where there is a bridge and it is over the major AA river, and it’s in a place that called Lafayette Air, and that is the 82nd Airborne Division’s primary battle for the first three days of the invasion from G6 all the way through the afternoon of June 9th, the 82nd Airborne Division is struggling with German units, in the vicinity of the the Mercury River crossing site at LA here.

01:28:20:15 – 01:28:50:10
Marty Morgan
So it’s sort of based on that, where there’s an old 1840s stone bridge. And then also on another story of a murder, a river crossing that was just about three miles south of there at a place called Ship Depot. And interestingly, Private Ryan, you can when you read a little bit about life here and shift and it all started, suddenly starts to make sense how Robert Rowe that was inspired by those two stories, in addition to another story that I’ll get into later if you want me to.

01:28:50:12 – 01:29:15:28
Marty Morgan
But he’s inspired by last and shifted to a certain extent. There is a there’s a moment at the part that makes its way into Saving Private Ryan powerfully, where, a battalion commander in the 507th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division, commanding Edwin Iceberg. They move down and they’re ordered to go and capture this bridge intact. So they move through the town, shift upon the madre River bridge.

01:29:16:00 – 01:29:39:08
Marty Morgan
A stone bridge is just south of town. Lieutenant Colonel Osbourne runs out onto the bridge, and when he’s just as he’s about to put his foot down on the bridge, he’s shot. He falls to the ground, rolls off the bridge, and splashes into the water, which is something that we see in the closing scene. The climactic battle scene in Rommel and Saving Private Ryan.

01:29:39:10 – 01:30:03:07
Marty Morgan
But then the next highest ranking officer takes over. And he was a friend of mine, a person I knew quite well. His name was Roy Creek, and Roy Creek was the iconic commander of the 507th Parachute Infantry Regiment, and Captain Creek took over the fight for the bridge at Shifter Park. And he takes the bridge. He has a small force.

01:30:03:09 – 01:30:30:07
Marty Morgan
It receives a note late in the day on June 6th, instructing him to hold the bridge shift. DuPont instructs him to specifically hold at all costs, and I find that Roy Creek’s story, from report to an extent, expired and inspires the imaginary story of the 101st Airborne Division paratroopers at the fictitious village of Rommel on the Madre.

01:30:30:09 – 01:30:44:24
Dan LeFebvre
Not to shift movies, but there’s the bridge and the longest day that they have to hold as well, and I. I don’t remember the exact line, but it’s, hold until relieved or something like that. Is that the same story.

01:30:44:27 – 01:30:55:10
Marty Morgan
In And Longest Day when you hear hold until really told until relief. That’s, Pegasus Bridge over the Cole Canal in the, Sword Beach area.

01:30:55:13 – 01:30:58:18
Dan LeFebvre
Okay, so not not related at all with with this story.

01:30:58:18 – 01:31:08:10
Marty Morgan
They’re not really, but I think maybe, philosophically and spiritually, it may have contributed some, inspiration to Robert Rota.

01:31:08:12 – 01:31:15:28
Dan LeFebvre
Well, yeah, I guess since it’s a fictional story and Saving Private Ryan, I guess there can be a lot of different, inspirations there.

01:31:16:00 – 01:31:34:20
Marty Morgan
Yeah. And, to me, what it looks like is wrote it, in a commendable way. I’m not criticizing him in the commendable way he treated the the broad story of D-Day as like a cafeteria. You can’t cram it all into one movie. There’s no way to do it. That movie would be 100 hours long and nobody would sit through it.

01:31:34:23 – 01:31:50:02
Marty Morgan
So he had to pick a choose. And as he went down the cafeteria line, he picked, I’ll take a little bit of lucky er, I’ll take a little bit of the part. I’ll take a little bit of rangers on Omaha Beach. I’ll take a little bit of George Taylor on Omaha Beach. I’ll take a little bit of Jenny Monty on Omaha Beach.

01:31:50:09 – 01:32:05:03
Marty Morgan
And he picks and chooses all of these things to create a story. And his objective was not to create a documentary, but provided a factual representation of D-Day invasion. His objective was to create a good story, and I think he succeeded.

01:32:05:05 – 01:32:23:09
Dan LeFebvre
With the strategy that they have in the movie around the bridge. Be correct, though, that, that they were a vital part of the war effort to to maintain those or to keep them. From being destroyed by the enemy.

01:32:23:12 – 01:32:51:23
Marty Morgan
This is where it gets a little weird and yes and no, again, the annoying historian qualified answer. Yes. And so far as the two bridge crossing sites of the murder a lot, the air and shutter port are elevated to an incredible level of importance after June 6th. And that’s because of the fact, particularly Lapeer, and that’s because of the fact that.

01:32:51:26 – 01:33:19:18
Marty Morgan
The Germans had purposely exacerbated seasonal flooding by manipulating locks on the beer River, the river and the Dover River by by manipulating these locks they tracked, they trapped a lot of water in the interior of the Cardington Peninsula, which is where the airborne force landed on D-Day. The American Air Force. And that trap water created a big lake where there normally was not a lake.

01:33:19:21 – 01:33:52:03
Marty Morgan
And by big lake, I mean big. I mean it is almost ten miles wide from top to bottom at a couple of places. It’s it’s two and three miles across. But at one critical point at last year, the flooded area was only about 700m wide, where there was the bridge over the river and then a raised roadway called the Causeway, reading from the east side of the flooded area to the west side of the flooded area.

01:33:52:06 – 01:34:30:09
Marty Morgan
And so this force landing on Utah Beach, the U.S. Army Seventh Corps, composed of multiple divisions of force of over 50,000 men. That force was to land on Utah Beach, push into the interior, and continue pushing westward all the way across the peninsula, the cotangent peninsula, the. By securing the peninsula by cutting up the peninsula, it would then become possible for the U.S. Seventh Corps to engage in maneuver warfare with four divisions that would then push from the south to the north to envelop and capture the port city at Cherbourg from its landward approaches.

01:34:30:09 – 01:34:54:22
Marty Morgan
That was the overall big picture Corps level strategy, and in order to carry out that strategy, the corps had to land all of its men and vehicles on Neutral Beach, and then they had to move westward, and in order to complete that westward movement, they had to get across this flooded area. And there was really only one good place to get across that flooded area.

01:34:54:25 – 01:35:16:26
Marty Morgan
And that was at lock here, which is why the battle of Locks here that unfolds on June 9th, 1944 is climactic and important because it opens up that artery. What was happening in the days before June 9th was effectively a building and growing traffic jam. Think of a traffic jam that’s being counterattacked by the enemy. That’s what was happening.

01:35:16:28 – 01:35:43:04
Marty Morgan
And then the 82nd airborne was given the task of punching through, the bus, recapturing the bridge and causeway, and therefore opening up a route for ground forces to move westward, which was the overall strategy of seventh Corps in the aftermath of the landings. So the stakes for the battle fought by the 82nd Airborne Division on June off year are extremely high.

01:35:43:06 – 01:36:15:10
Marty Morgan
They carry the field of battle. They are victorious. They open up the warfare Causeway, and those horses begin moving westward. And the aftermath of of that victory. And so if we assume that Robert wrote at base part of the fictional battle at Rommel, on what actually happened at Lapeer, you could say you could elevate the importance of that site to the highest level by saying, if we don’t hold this bridge and the enemy takes it, it changes the war.

01:36:15:12 – 01:36:47:06
Marty Morgan
Those those sort of, oh, sort of how dramatic. And I should note, I should say this, those sort of melodramatic terms typically accompany motion pictures and, and it’s a little bit of a Hollywood goofy thing to see moments like that elevated to these incredibly important terms. And it’s a little bit goofy in Hollywood to see, like, the lowest ranking people echoing these visions of grand strategy.

01:36:47:09 – 01:37:12:00
Marty Morgan
But that happens a couple of times in private, Ryan. And I think it had to happen, although it might be a little bit goofy and a little bit laughable. I think it had to happen because you had to have certain levels of character exposition, like there’s a moment where Tom Hanks is talking to Ted Danson, and they’re talking about Montgomery and Hal and Monty’s stall over there near corn, and we have to get to kind of get to Berlin.

01:37:12:00 – 01:37:35:24
Marty Morgan
And we have to get to Berlin to get to the big boat home. I think I’m quoting the movie correctly, and I find it a little bit peculiar that you would have two captains having these discussions of grand strategy. And also my big challenge to that idea will be, how in the world would two U.S. Army captains know all the details of what’s happening far away, and the area around Castle where the British were fighting?

01:37:35:27 – 01:38:01:16
Marty Morgan
I think that they wouldn’t. Maybe captains discussed grand strategy and down moments and Normandy, but I think they wouldn’t have had like up to date current events in terms of what the British were experiencing around Kong. And by that same token, when you see the 101st Airborne Division paratroopers and the fictional town Rommel discussing how we have to hold this bridge if the enemy takes this bridge, it’s all a little bit weird.

01:38:01:18 – 01:38:26:27
Marty Morgan
I’m not entirely convinced that the the ground troops on the lowest possible level are having discussions of grand strategy. I think that their conversations were probably, reflective of more immediate needs and more immediate concerns, like with this is how much ammunition we have, this is how much boom we have, how we do. We have communications established with anybody else.

01:38:26:27 – 01:38:35:26
Marty Morgan
I think they would have been discussing that sort of thing, rather than, we can’t let this bridge fall to the enemy, or else the entire invasion is undermined.

01:38:35:29 – 01:38:52:22
Dan LeFebvre
Well, it’s interesting you mention that, because that is something I wanted to ask you about, because in the movie they do the whole plan to defend the bridge. They do. There’s a mentioned where they talk about how they’re low on weapons and low on ammo, and they know the Germans are coming and they’re going to come with tanks.

01:38:52:24 – 01:39:08:24
Dan LeFebvre
And so, according to the movie side, Tom Hanks, his character, Captain Miller suggests that they make sticky bombs. And of course, they have no idea what those are. So he has to explain that you take a sock, you cram it with as much can’t be as it’ll hold. Coat it with axle grease, and then you throw it sticks to the tank.

01:39:08:24 – 01:39:39:00
Dan LeFebvre
Sticky bomb. That’s their best bet to take off a tank tread. And so we see a mixture of that. We see Jackson with his sniper rifle that we’ve talked about earlier. He set up and there’s a 30 caliber, machine guns that they use as well. And then, of course, there’s hand-to-hand combat. How well do you think that the movie did showing this strategy in this mix of weapons used to even though the bridge itself in the movie is fictional?

01:39:39:00 – 01:39:43:12
Dan LeFebvre
But how well do you think it did showing that battle?

01:39:43:15 – 01:40:08:12
Marty Morgan
Let me get the party pooper stuff out of the way first, and then I’ll give it a couple of minutes to compliment second party pooper. First. First of all, American airborne units within units of the American hundred and first and 82nd Airborne Division are not encountering Waffen SS planes are going to do ERS in that area because this area is androgynous along the length of the mayor de Rey River.

01:40:08:18 – 01:40:33:28
Marty Morgan
And I would just point out that there’s no point during the fighting in Normandy, where Waffen SS units engage American airborne forces along the murder. It doesn’t happen. 101st Airborne Division encounters and are going to doors of the 17th SS and the area of self guarantee and beginning on June 9th, but not up at the murder a river that’s just me being a party pooper.

01:40:34:06 – 01:40:58:28
Marty Morgan
And then also let’s talk tanks for a second, because what you see in the concluding climactic battle scene at mill is an assault gun. A really it’s not a really an assault gun. It’s actually, piece of self-propelled, self-propelled field artillery, C a self-propelled field artillery vehicle, and you see a tank that is supposed to be a Tiger.

01:40:59:01 – 01:41:21:03
Marty Morgan
And just for the record, that is a Soviet T-34 tank that has been modified to look like a German Tiger. It’s not an actual German tiger. They just need a big tank. And they there. There’s really only one functioning tiger anywhere in the world, and that’s in England. Number 131 that was depicted in theory. So they took a Soviet T-34, converted it to make it look like a tiger.

01:41:21:05 – 01:42:00:18
Marty Morgan
And it’s there present in the Rommel battle. Just for the record, no, Americans do not. Americans fighting in Normandy do not encounter a German tiger tank until the Mortein counteroffensive of in August. So from June 4th until August, we don’t encounter tigers. In fact, it’s not until, I think, July 28th that we encounter a pincer. It’s not until like July 28th that we encounter a German marked for tank.

01:42:00:20 – 01:42:28:13
Marty Morgan
I’m saying all of this because I think an important point for us to remember is that American forces, particularly American parachute infantry forces, do not encounter German made battle tanks until later. One. They encounter this this special German vehicle that we call a German or Stig. We encounter those around Saint Aragonese in the afternoon on June 7th. We encounter them in a few other places.

01:42:28:13 – 01:42:58:05
Marty Morgan
But that’s not a tank. It’s an assault gun. It doesn’t have a 360 degree rotating turret, and it is capable of quite a bit less than a Tiger or a Panther or even a mark four, for that matter. And we’re not seeing them. What we are seeing, though, in terms of German armored forces attacking American paratroopers shortly after the invasion, what we’re seeing are German armored forces that are attacking American paratroopers with French made tanks that were captured by the Germans in 1940.

01:42:58:07 – 01:43:29:13
Marty Morgan
In fact, there was a tank battle on the Lafayette Causeway in the afternoon on June 6th, and that tank battle consists of one German made Mach three tank and three French made tanks being used by a German fighting battalion. The battalion was called the Panzer Assets Update, and it was a training and replacement battalion that was almost completely equipped with these French made tanks, so there are no American paratroopers going jaw to jaw against the tiger.

01:43:29:15 – 01:43:51:25
Marty Morgan
It just doesn’t happen. I’m sorry. It’s a fantasy. It makes for a heck of a good scene, and it makes for a lot of tension. That whole tension associated with that. You know that moment in the movie where they show ribbon and Hanks and they’re in the hole and the ground’s shaking, and there’s literally like, rocks bouncing up and down from a rumbling of the approaching tiger that’s suspenseful and it’s almost visceral.

01:43:51:27 – 01:44:19:07
Marty Morgan
It’s just too bad it didn’t actually happen during D-Day, or any or any of the days that came immediately thereafter. So Americans are experiencing, German fighting vehicles, German armored fighting vehicles, but they’re not encountering the most frightening beast of them all, the German tiger. So there’s another license that the film takes with the reality of combat during the Normandy invasion.

01:44:19:09 – 01:44:48:29
Marty Morgan
So the idea of the SS carrying out this coordinated infantry and armor assault against the, village up on the Murdery River. It’s. That’s all a fiction created just for the movie. And it’s all based on, once again, a gumbo, a mixture of battles from different eras or areas of fighting in the European theater from different locations across the European theater.

01:44:49:01 – 01:45:22:06
Marty Morgan
It introduces some truths, and it introduces a lot of distortion and, and mythology. And just for the record, there was a sticky bomb during World War two. It doesn’t end up looking like a stock, stock with grease and composition being stopped in it. Although the training manuals did have a chapter on improvised explosive devices, where it instructed U.S. troops on how to create a bomb that was sort of like that, but not entirely.

01:45:22:06 – 01:45:58:11
Marty Morgan
And again, another fiction that was designed to, to it was designed, I think, to recognize an American, a unique American spirit of of being flexible, of being innovative, of working with what you got. And that is certainly a way that people tend to characterize the American army that fights in the European theater in World War two. But you don’t really see a battle where Tiger tanks come rumbling into the town, with airborne infantrymen.

01:45:58:11 – 01:46:21:28
Marty Morgan
And just for the record, airborne infantry is by its very nature, light infantry, airborne infantry with basically one anti-tank weapon. And that’s it. Because if you remember in the movie, the one anti-tank weapon they have is the one that was carried by, I think it was actually used by the the private Ryan character. It was a model m1A1 anti-tank rocket launcher, what we call the bazooka.

01:46:22:00 – 01:46:44:14
Marty Morgan
So you’re supposed to imagine this force of 101st Airborne Division paratroopers with a group of U.S. Army Rangers and then a 20 night division clerk typist, Browning, on top of it. They have one anti-tank weapon, and they’re supposed to hold off this coordinated assault by Waffen SS. Plans are going to be supported by armor. There’s a lot of fantasy going on in that scenario.

01:46:44:16 – 01:46:47:00
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, it sounds like it.

01:46:47:03 – 01:47:08:22
Marty Morgan
I forgot to give it compliments. I should give you a compliment. One compliment that I think it deserves is that that scene is an intense combat scene, but it’s got a totally different quality to the intense combat scene that comes at the beginning of the movie. It’s an intense combat scene, but it’s totally different. And I think it’s I mean, it had the first time I saw it having on the edge of my seat.

01:47:08:22 – 01:47:32:00
Marty Morgan
I mean, it’s visceral. It’s powerful. The hand to hand sequence is evocative, and I mean, it’s stimulating and all of the negative ways. I mean, you really empathize with the Mellish character when he’s trying, when he’s engaged in hand-to-hand combat with this top looking Waffen SS Panzer going to be going to mirror that and involves them beating each other and biting fingers off.

01:47:32:00 – 01:47:57:25
Marty Morgan
And then ultimately, the German bayonets. The Mellish character. That’s a powerful scene, and I think it’s powerful and thought provoking as well. That is a part of the exposition of that scene. It also addresses the idea of someone who is, who is traumatized by the experience of being in the middle of a battle because the Upham character is is atomized by this battle that’s going on around him.

01:47:57:26 – 01:48:21:19
Marty Morgan
He’s not ready for it, and he doesn’t cope with it well because he hears Mellish screaming for his life just up the stairs up there with a loaded M1 right click. He could go up and he could save Mellish, and he’s so paralyzed by fear that he doesn’t do it. And I think that is an interesting thing for the movie to have addressed, because that is definitely something that is a part of the American experience of fighting in the European theater, in combat and what we’re to.

01:48:21:19 – 01:48:50:01
Marty Morgan
Because not everybody, but there were Americans who, when it came time for them to to turn on their bravery in battle, some men were not capable of doing it. There are some people that in the face of combat, their instinct drove them to retreat. Whereas there are others who rise to the greatest levels of self-sacrificing courage. And you could imagine.

01:48:50:03 – 01:49:10:23
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. Well, yeah, you you hear all those stories about the, the heroic side and the people who do that, you know, they they rise to the challenge. But first time I saw Saving Private Ryan, that scene really stood out to me with with Upham. And because it was one of the first times that it was like, well, yeah, not everybody’s going to rise to that challenge.

01:49:10:23 – 01:49:24:04
Dan LeFebvre
It’s just there’s not everybody can. And so I think that they addressed that, really spoke volumes and told a completely different side in just those few moments.

01:49:24:07 – 01:49:51:02
Marty Morgan
Yeah, that’s that’s a subject I find myself talking about on my tour quite a lot. And just like you said, not everybody is cut out for it. And consider what we what’s the American military became what it had become by 1944. And that is that it wasn’t a military force that was composed of a large number of people that volunteered, and then also a large number of people who did not volunteer, a large number of conscripts, people who were drafted into uniform.

01:49:51:04 – 01:50:17:23
Marty Morgan
And among the draftees. I am fascinated by the way the U.S. Army draft the experience in World War Two. The volunteers are people who I think knew that they were cut out for it to begin with, and then experience basic training and experience during combat. They were cut out before they had been gotten through that evolution. And then a large number of men are drafted to the U.S. Army, put in uniform.

01:50:17:25 – 01:50:42:29
Marty Morgan
They go through accelerated basic training programs. They are delivered to fighting units in Europe. And sometimes the don’t do well. You have to book ends of experience. You have the complete polar opposite. And that I’m fascinated by the number of U.S. Army draftees who go to Europe and earn the Medal of Honor and some of the most amazing acts of bravery you can imagine.

01:50:43:01 – 01:51:08:08
Marty Morgan
And then you also have men like there was a man named Eddie Slovic. It was a the 28th Infantry Division who was a draftee. And once the battle of the bulge began, and there was disorder and chaos created by the German advance in the battle of the bulge, Slovic took the opportunity to desert his unit. It was ultimately found and was tried, or the desertion was ultimately, executed by firing squad.

01:51:08:08 – 01:51:43:26
Marty Morgan
The one and only U.S. Army soldier who was executed for desertion during World War Two. He was a draftee, and I he interests me. He deserted his unit in Luxembourg. There was another U.S. Army soldier in Luxembourg named D.G. Turner, who was a draftee, and who by the time he got to Luxembourg for the battle of the bulge, he had already earned a Bronze Star, and as a draftee he went on to earn the Medal of Honor, and then was engaged in another act of absolutely incredible bravery when he was ultimately killed in a combat on February 7th, 1945.

01:51:43:28 – 01:52:08:11
Marty Morgan
And he was a draftee. So when you when you assemble a citizen soldier army and the the American military ultimately becomes seven, 16 million people in uniform during World War two, whenever you a symbol of course of that scale and you get there by instituting a draft, some of them are going to be people that can handle it, and some of them are going to be people that cannot.

01:52:08:13 – 01:52:13:27
Marty Morgan
And interestingly, very much that the movie Saving Private Ryan addressed that very issue.

01:52:13:29 – 01:52:39:10
Dan LeFebvre
Going back to the movie, despite taking heavy losses at the bridge, the Americans are able to hold back the German assault just long enough. All hope seems lost. Captain Miller is mortally wounded, and he’s shooting at a tank with his pistol, and one of the shots results in a massive explosion. And then we see a P-51 fly over it, and they come out and take out the German tanks.

01:52:39:12 – 01:53:04:14
Dan LeFebvre
Other reinforcements arrive, and they push back. The rest of the German forces. But Captain Miller has been shot. Ryan makes it to him just before he dies and holding him close. Miller tells Ryan two words earn this. And then the movie takes us back to the beginning. We have the elderly man in the cemetery from the beginning of the movie, and this is when we find out it’s James Ryan.

01:53:04:16 – 01:53:29:00
Dan LeFebvre
He’s there with his family, visiting Captain Miller’s grave. He stand in front, says he never forgot what he said that day on the bridge, and we’re left with tears in her eyes as the movie comes to a close. Now, what I gathered from this was that James Ryan felt the pressure to live his life to the fullest, because he came home when so many did not.

01:53:29:03 – 01:53:45:23
Dan LeFebvre
Of course, in his case, it was a specific mission to save his life that cost the lives of others. Was this sort of survivor’s guilt that we see in the movie something common among veterans who managed to make it home after the D-Day invasion, when so many did not.

01:53:45:26 – 01:54:13:02
Marty Morgan
Make it was for my first and second books. I interviewed a couple of hundred D-Day veterans, almost all of whom are gone now. And they spoke to that right away. In addition to that, I was raised in a household by a Vietnam veteran and spent two years, two tours of duty in Vietnam, and he was traumatized. And I was raised by a man who obviously felt survivor’s guilt.

01:54:13:05 – 01:54:47:00
Marty Morgan
My father’s unit was attacked in Vietnam during the Tet Offensive at a place called coochie, right after my father had rotated out to go home. And his first sergeant, whom I’m named after, was killed. And, I saw the way that my my father felt guilt all the way until his life ended. And that guilt, I think, simultaneously tortured him and then admonished him to live the fullest possible life that he could.

01:54:47:03 – 01:54:56:17
Marty Morgan
And although he wasn’t a survivor of D-Day or the Second World War, I feel like the experience of combat between these conflicts is the same.

01:54:56:20 – 01:55:14:10
Dan LeFebvre
I’m not a member of the military. My dad was was in the Army, but, I think it’s just a great and great message. Overall, it still hit me even though I’m not in the military. It’s still hit me like, you know, live, live your life to the fullest because you never know.

01:55:14:12 – 01:55:33:07
Marty Morgan
You know, Dan, when that movie, when I saw the first time I watched it, Georgia. And when the credits rolled, I looked around and I was like, what the hell just happened in this theater? What I did when I went into that movie, that was not what I expected. I did expect an emotional drama. I did not expect the levels of authenticity.

01:55:33:07 – 01:55:59:17
Marty Morgan
Although they weren’t perfect, they were great. And I certainly didn’t expect a film where if you pay close attention to that movie, establishing shot number one as a waving American flag, it fades up from credits to the southern flagpole on the northern plughole at the Normandy American Cemetery. And when I saw that, my first thought was like waving American flag, what am what’s about to happen to me in this theater?

01:55:59:20 – 01:56:20:15
Marty Morgan
And then 2.5 hours later, I came out going, this is not what I expected because I felt like the movie Saving Private Ryan. Keep in mind the era, but my maybe I’m just unique in timing because my era of movie watching was the war movies that I got addicted to when I was young was stuff like Longest Day.

01:56:20:17 – 01:56:42:25
Marty Morgan
Stuff like Tor, Tora Bridge. Too far from an era when war movies were a bit different, but they were about to change. And then the movies that were new releases that dealt with World War Two subject matter. When movies like big Red won and then moved into the 1980s, and the movies that came out in the 1980s, really the one stand out World War two movie, the 1980s.

01:56:42:25 – 01:57:17:14
Marty Morgan
For me is Memphis Belle, and this Belle kind of I bleeds. It wasn’t celebratory, and romanticized in the way that Private Ryan was. I felt like Memphis Belle was a little bit of, a world War Two Vietnam movie. And of course, in the 80s, that’s when the big Vietnam movies were out, the biggest of them all, of course, platoon, which I argue established an overall narrative about the experience of Vietnam that is completely distorted and and not really factually accurate.

01:57:17:16 – 01:57:48:12
Marty Morgan
But regardless of what I think about these movies, these movies had a quality of, of of disenchantment and, and cynicism that you don’t see in the movie Saving Private Ryan. When I sat down in the theater before the credits, before the theater lights dimmed a bit, I, I was not expecting to go down the line of a movie that was going to be a little patriotic, a little triumphal.

01:57:48:14 – 01:58:17:06
Marty Morgan
I didn’t expect it to be quite as reflective. There are moments where it’s about as subtle as a barn door, but then there are moments where it’s pretty subtle and emotional. I did not expect the film that Steven Spielberg gave me, and it’s anything I feel like. Though the lasting popularity of Saving Private Ryan is because Steven Steven Spielberg did not give us a Vietnam movie that was set in World War Two.

01:58:17:08 – 01:58:33:14
Dan LeFebvre
I wasn’t expecting that either. The first time that I saw it, it was I wasn’t expecting it to be as emotional as it ended up being. I thought they did a great job of showing the human side.

01:58:33:17 – 01:58:54:25
Marty Morgan
It did, and I. I struggle with this because I, like every other historian out there, were a dime a dozen, and we all have added ideas of screenplays that we’re going to write and how we’re going to make the next Saving Private Ryan. And we’re going to be a responsible sport. And I, I often argue that it is not possible to match that, that achievement.

01:58:54:27 – 01:59:15:08
Marty Morgan
And here’s why I think it’s not possible. And I think it’s not possible because of Steven Spielberg. That movie happened because Steven Spielberg wanted to make that movie. And people didn’t tell Steven Spielberg how to make his movie. He made a movie he wanted to. So the man who brought us E.T. brought us the way the American flag and earned this.

01:59:15:10 – 01:59:27:29
Marty Morgan
And I don’t mean mentioned it to be negative or cynical. I mention it because he clearly makes movies that want to pull at your heart strings. And the movie Saving Private Ryan definitely did that.

01:59:28:01 – 01:59:53:03
Dan LeFebvre
Well, thank you so much for coming on to chat about Saving Private Ryan. I think one of the biggest takeaways that I’ve heard from people after seeing the movie and after our discussion, is just how it visualizes what it must have been like during D-Day. But that leads us right into an even better way to visualize D-Day with your book called D-Day A Photographic History of the Normandy Invasion.

01:59:53:05 – 01:59:58:06
Dan LeFebvre
Can you share a little bit of information about your book and where someone can pick up a copy?

01:59:58:08 – 02:00:24:03
Marty Morgan
Sure, yeah. The the book was released just early mid last year for just in time for the 75th anniversary of D-Day. It’s it features 450 photographs of the Normandy invasion. Something earlier some never been before. What I sought to do in the book was to bring, a greater level of specificity to captioning an explanation of where certain famous photographs were taken and what they depict.

02:00:24:05 – 02:00:45:27
Marty Morgan
I also do a little bit of then and now photography, and I do a little bit of storytelling in the book as well, and it was a compilation of my experiences of having conducted interviews with hundreds of D-Day veterans and spent a lot of time around the subject and spent a lot of time in Normandy. And, I’m just glad that it was rereleased in time for the 75th anniversary.

02:00:45:29 – 02:01:04:19
Marty Morgan
I think it is for the most part, the rerelease is for the most part sold out now, but I see that copies are available on Amazon. You can find it on there. The only Martin K Morgan that has published books on Amazon.com. And I hope that, somebody out there interested me, they might go buy it.

02:01:04:19 – 02:01:27:23
Marty Morgan
So that would mean that I have sold maybe at least two copies in 2020. I I’m proud of it. I like the book a lot. I, I look back on it as a positive moment. It didn’t really burn the world down in terms of reaching people, and it wasn’t a bestseller. But, the economics of publishing in the 21st century are pretty complicated, and I’m just glad to have a book out.

02:01:27:26 – 02:01:30:01
Dan LeFebvre
Thank you again so much for your time, Marty.

02:01:30:03 – 02:01:39:13
Marty Morgan
Well, it’s my pleasure. Thank you for the honor of inviting me to be a part of a discussion.

00:04:08:10 – 00:04:26:20
Dan LeFebvre
We have a few movies to talk about today, but before we do that, let’s start by flipping things around a little bit. Normally here on the podcast, we talk about things that filmmakers change from the true story. But I know you’ve been working to get your book called Not a Real Enemy About Your Father urban story told into a movie.

00:04:26:22 – 00:04:43:03
Dan LeFebvre
Of course, we can’t predict the future to know when or if that will happen soon, but let’s hope for the best and say it is turned into a movie. So what’s one key thing that you want to make sure the filmmakers don’t change from the true story in the film adaptation?

00:04:43:06 – 00:05:01:18
Robert Wolf
Well, hopefully all of it, of course. But, that’s the easy answer. My dad’s for escapes or what? For example, my dad was a four time escape artist, and he missed an escape, too. He was fortunate, and he sports enough to go to the wrong train station under communist Hungary. And everybody made that train got arrested, including his, medical school classmate.

00:05:01:18 – 00:05:08:07
Robert Wolf
So all of that. I’d like to be, as accurate as possible as, cinematography. Cinematography.

00:05:08:10 – 00:05:09:02
Dan LeFebvre
Cinematography.

00:05:09:04 – 00:05:29:27
Robert Wolf
Yeah, yeah, as close as possible. Color movie, color in color. Obviously, a lot of the older movies are black and white, like Schindler’s List, which I hope we talk about a little bit more. That movie I just saw the movie and a resonates very, very much so with the story that I’m that we’re telling here. And then his upbringing, you know, it doesn’t have to be a long part of his upbringing.

00:05:30:00 – 00:05:49:23
Robert Wolf
And if I could cast a movie, it’d be Tom Hanks playing my dad and Tom, or that Tom Hanks Tom cruise. Tom Hanks plays one of the nicer, guards in the labor camp, a forced labor camp. A lot of the movie should cover the forced labor camp, the beatings, getting urinated on, getting shot at by Russian planes, all that kind of thing.

00:05:49:23 – 00:06:09:12
Robert Wolf
So there’s a lot of content. And, you know, of course, we wanted as close as possible, but any good producer writer screenplay would, would switch it up a little. I just hope they keep the, you know, as they keep the fidelity as much as possible. I mean obviously you got to make changes to capture an audience and hopefully that would be the case.

00:06:09:16 – 00:06:29:04
Robert Wolf
And you know the other thing is some people say could be a feature film. Some people say a documentary docu drama series. I wouldn’t care as long as they did a good job with it. There’s 40 chapters in our book, so, you could. I don’t think it’d be a 40, 40, show series, but certainly 10 or 15 would be, you know, one season’s worth at least.

00:06:29:04 – 00:06:45:15
Robert Wolf
So it’s always up to the producer, or whoever gets a hold of, the story. The it’s not in a screen stand in a screenplay yet, but, I, I leave that to the I leave that to Hollywood or whatever, discovers whatever we’re doing here. And if they do so it’s a, it’s a wing and a prayer.

00:06:45:15 – 00:07:02:01
Robert Wolf
And I know it’s a such a long shot. It’s easier to get into medical school, which I’m a position. I’m a radiologist, recently retired. It’s easier to get into medical school than to sell a New York Times bestseller. A bigger story and a movie, as we well know, nobody knew Schindler was, you know, 20, 30 years ago and nobody knew who.

00:07:02:01 – 00:07:18:29
Robert Wolf
And Frank was way back in the day. And, the, Life is Beautiful story I never wanted I mean, I never even think about, Italy and the Holocaust until I saw that movie and both of them the second time. Both great movies. And we could talk about those details and how they resonate with what we’re doing.

00:07:19:01 – 00:07:29:01
Robert Wolf
And I’m glad I saw them after I wrote a book regarding the Holocaust and beforehand to what a what a different viewpoint or what a, what a difference that makes.

00:07:29:01 – 00:07:48:26
Dan LeFebvre
Certainly we’re going to we’re going to talk about those for sure. But as we shift into some of the movies that that have been made, there are a lot of movies that are set before and during World War Two. So what I’d love to do is to get your take on some of those and how they compare to your family’s experiences that you talk about in your book.

00:07:48:28 – 00:08:06:05
Dan LeFebvre
And the first movie that I’d like to start with is a classic film, The Sound of Music, and it tells the story of how life changes for the von Trapp family as Nazi Germany annexes Austria in 1938. And as we watch a movie like Sound of Music, it’s possible to see the warning signs when we watch the movie now.

00:08:06:05 – 00:08:26:00
Dan LeFebvre
But of course, anytime we’re watching a movie like that, we’re also looking at it through a historical lens because we already know what’s going to happen from history instead of being there in the moment. And correct me if I’m wrong, but Austria is like less than 100km from where your father grew up in Hungary, so he wasn’t that far from where the annexation unfolded.

00:08:26:03 – 00:08:30:24
Dan LeFebvre
What were things like in that region as Germany annexed Austria?

00:08:30:27 – 00:08:57:20
Robert Wolf
Well, as you know, the fact the rise of fascism almost simultaneously with the Great Depression, the Roaring 20s, were okay in Hungary and throughout the world. We think the war was over. Things were doing well. And meantime, of course, Hitler was it was a building, the military machine that he was, because Germany’s economy was, it was, that’s how they that’s that was their economy was the military, of course, 33 is where fascism was on a rise in 38, 1938.

00:08:57:20 – 00:09:17:28
Robert Wolf
And in Hungary, there were anti-Jewish laws were initiated. So you couldn’t on the radio, you could only go out at certain times. There was, no Jews or dog signs up, of course, Kristallnacht. If, I’m not mistaken, in Germany, Austria was 1938, a very big event. That’s where they started taking force.

00:09:17:28 – 00:09:39:06
Robert Wolf
Laborers, the men, the young men that were wealthy, they started to take them away to forced labor camps and, really didn’t affect Hungary. I mean, the anti-Jewish laws were there. So they were persecuted and shunned, if you will. But the the killings and the, the the the most of it didn’t really, happened in Hungary till 1943, 1944.

00:09:39:09 – 00:10:03:00
Robert Wolf
My dad ended up going to after his first forced labor camp in 1943 and October, and then his parents were taken away to Auschwitz, in 1944. So Poland got hit first, obviously in 1939, Kristallnacht before that, 1938. And then Hungary, a little bit later, what I’m told. And from when I’ve read Hungary had the fastest, the fastest pace of homicide, of genocide of any of them.

00:10:03:00 – 00:10:33:07
Robert Wolf
So, that includes Ukraine and Russia, which they were brutalized and the Polish, 1939 of the refugees went to Hungary. And, the Hungarian government sent the refugees back, unfortunately. And, and it really badly for them. And so this resonates with Poland, with the, with the Schindler idea too, because, a lot of similarities between that and what happened to Hungary, although we’re talking about 1941 versus 1943 and 1944, but it could be the same, the same idea that, you know, a little bit, a little bit different background, different scenario.

00:10:33:07 – 00:10:36:09
Robert Wolf
But, a lot of the common, a lot of common themes.

00:10:36:13 – 00:10:59:15
Dan LeFebvre
Since you mentioned it didn’t really touch Hungary, but it’s touching all these countries around. And I’ve, I’ve never visited Hungary, but I can imagine that the proximity isn’t that far. I mean, there’s borders, you know, it’s technically a different country, but there’s these atrocities that are happening. What was it like for your your father as a child and your your grandparents?

00:10:59:15 – 00:11:04:12
Dan LeFebvre
And when they’re, when they’re seeing, I mean, they had been seeing in the news what’s going on where they.

00:11:04:15 – 00:11:30:29
Robert Wolf
Well, what a great question. Well, you say seeing in the news, we realize that my dad in Hungary and his parents never own a car. They never owned a TV. You bring up a great point. Jews were not allowed to have radios. So. And so they had a radio. He, his dad had enough courage to hide a radio, and they would quietly listen to the BBC, during the uprise of the uprising, with a lot of hope and a lot of prayer that that it end soon and relevant to that.

00:11:31:01 – 00:11:50:08
Robert Wolf
During my dad’s first escape toward. They thought it was the end of Lord, they don’t get much news that the forced labor camp, but they’re in the middle of nowhere, about near the Austria Hungary border. And even though they escaped, the Jews first of four, which some are remarkable, they didn’t know whether to flee to Budapest or stay in Hungary or go to Austria because they didn’t know who’s going to win the war.

00:11:50:11 – 00:12:04:24
Robert Wolf
And, you know, the Nazis won the war and they end up in Austria. They’re dead men. And if there’s a chance in Hungary, not Hungary proper, but the West, turns out it’s not the West. It was Soviet Union. If they win the war, maybe they’re better off in Hungary. It turns out either way, you know, you’re a Jew.

00:12:04:24 – 00:12:28:23
Robert Wolf
You’re screwed. I mean, those men, only 5% of the forced labor survived, in the in that process, including my dad, because he was on the run and hiding at the time. He wasn’t the. The rest of them that survived were treated as prisoners of war. Unfortunately. So 5% of forced labor, they had death marches. And that’s why my my dad and his friend Frank decided to, escape the first time because they thought they were on a death march.

00:12:28:28 – 00:12:59:27
Robert Wolf
And nobody knows about death marches in Europe. They don’t. I mean, historians might know. We all know about Okinawa and, the Pacific, but not a lot of people know. So when they thought you weren’t useful anymore, they killed you. So. And that was true at the Danube, very end of the war. Unlike Schindler, where the guards just go home, I, I’d like to talk about that for a few minutes, too, but, it’s a fantasy that these people, because the, guardians were treated and my mom and dad said that, that, the the Arrow Cross, for example, was like a Hungarian Gestapo and the the White Terror or the Red

00:12:59:27 – 00:13:17:14
Robert Wolf
terror or the the Nazis. The communists, they didn’t treat if you felt like if you’re Jewish, you were still scared of whoever was in charge. And, the Hungarians, the police and the military treated the Jewish people worse than the Nazis themselves. And that’s another thing that resonates with some of these movies, too. Women versus men.

00:13:17:14 – 00:13:26:27
Robert Wolf
Women guards versus Benghazi, pets. A lot of the, you know, a lot of things, humiliation. There are a lot of compare, a lot of things to talk about that are that resonate, big time.

00:13:27:00 – 00:13:48:21
Dan LeFebvre
I love that you mentioned the the radio and the communications there, because that’s something that I think I kind of like what I mentioned before, you know, when we watch a movie, we’re looking at it with a historical lens. So we think of, oh yeah, you can get news from all around there. And in my question I ask, you know, seeing things, but there’s that there has to be that almost added level of fear.

00:13:48:21 – 00:14:06:13
Dan LeFebvre
I would imagine, of not knowing, like, you know, that there’s some bad things going on, but you don’t know the full extent of it. And you then there’s that fear of just not knowing, because then your mind would start to go make things up that, I mean, there were some horrible things, but I, I mean, and it’s something I have a hard time wrap my head around.

00:14:06:14 – 00:14:12:26
Dan LeFebvre
What, like put yourself in the historical context of what that must have been like. It had to have been just terrifying for your for your father.

00:14:12:28 – 00:14:31:13
Robert Wolf
Well, part of the reason. Yeah. No intervention for many, many years, after the war started, it, because the United States had the, for example, had the, had the, the duty to protect its own citizens. So getting involved with the war, it was, was tough communications. I couldn’t say it better. You know, the real cell phones there, no lawyers or no courtrooms.

00:14:31:15 – 00:14:50:23
Robert Wolf
The cops and the. And the military pointing guns. It. Yeah. And fortunately, in this country, we. That’s not happened yet. So there’s one thing. No communication, just the radio, which was illegal. It probably would’ve been shot and killed if they got caught with it. And, and forced labor camps out in the middle of nowhere, even less communication than we had a regular camp in the US growing up, you know?

00:14:50:23 – 00:15:11:04
Robert Wolf
So, word of mouth. So things got a little easier for the men? Not much. But as the their guards got bribed, dental treat, free dental treatments. But, yes, there was a dentist. Obvious, obvious threat to society, killed at Auschwitz and his mom as well. And Deb didn’t find out about two months afterwards. Another miracle, from an eyewitness.

00:15:11:06 – 00:15:29:04
Robert Wolf
And, that’s another point that, the witnesses besides no cell phones, no video, a lot of photographs taken, as we know, the Nazis took many, many photographs. So denying the Holocaust and even communist Hungary just. There’s no way you can’t sell that. But the witness, the witness was the next victim is how it turned out.

00:15:29:04 – 00:15:46:14
Robert Wolf
Like at the Danube walk and death marches. Or as we’ve seen, these mass burial, sites, in Ukraine for example, or in the concentration camps. So the witnesses were literally the next victim. So very, very hard to, to wrap my arms around that. And like you said, very hard to get information again.

00:15:46:20 – 00:16:07:03
Dan LeFebvre
I it’s it’s hard to wrap your head around, but but putting yourself in that context of what that must have been like, I, I love the like in your book when you’re when you’re telling that story, it, it it does a really good job of, of helping to put the, the reader in that place of what that must have been like in there.

00:16:07:07 – 00:16:23:18
Dan LeFebvre
And I’m curious because there are a lot of details of your, your father’s earlier life were those things that he that he told you specifically or were they things that you had to research after the fact? Or how did that part kind of come together for that story as you’re putting all these pieces together?

00:16:23:21 – 00:16:41:21
Robert Wolf
A little bit of both. I can’t imagine the boredom in living in quarters like that packed when with people or even hiding out in your own home, with, you know, yellow stars, yellow armbands, the anxiety, the depression, the fear. I can’t imagine that. And but like you say, you can feel it, like during my dad’s first escape.

00:16:41:21 – 00:17:00:02
Robert Wolf
So, Yeah, my dad. Mom wrote an autobiography. They wrote the his story, from World War one. The of World War one to the end of the Hungarian Revolution. So literally 1916, 19 1718 to the end of the Revolution, 1956. They wrote the story in the 1970s. They they wrote it as though it happened the previous day.

00:17:00:09 – 00:17:17:04
Robert Wolf
Sharp. Chris. And I turned into a biography many, many years later. Growing up, the first half of my life, not so much as I went to college and medical school at a career as a radiologist, family, all of that things. So I didn’t, but I did read the it went from paper and pencil to typewriter to computer to disk.

00:17:17:06 – 00:17:36:04
Robert Wolf
And, when it was a manuscript maybe 30 years ago, I read it once and didn’t think much of it and didn’t remember much except my dad’s first escape. But then when I reread it after my my dad passed and fortunately my mom, a historian friend, handed me the story on the disk, and I turned his autobiography to biography and, just doing that alone.

00:17:36:07 – 00:17:52:25
Robert Wolf
Long story short, I went back to radiology, and that brought me to the book. And, long story short, the stories were so amazing. At least 20 miracles in my dad’s life and hungry for escapes and 20 miracles. I couldn’t leave it on a computer. I couldn’t leave it on a disk. I wanted to share it with the world and,

00:17:52:27 – 00:18:07:18
Robert Wolf
And so I did. And that’s been my that’s been my charge. That’s been my mission the last 6 or 7 years. The book’s been out a little while now, but, that doesn’t stop me from trying to fight antisemitism. So, this is my main thing, the why I’m doing this, and, but, yeah, it’s my own little corner.

00:18:07:18 – 00:18:23:07
Robert Wolf
I need help with that, obviously, but, no, my my mom and dad, they did this as though they knew I would like if you know me, six years ago, and my mom was a Holocaust educator, by the way. My dad, too, but he was an ObGyn, by the way, deliver 10,000 babies in the Detroit area, which is so a form of redemption.

00:18:23:10 – 00:18:41:06
Robert Wolf
That’s the punch line. It doesn’t bring back 6 million and doesn’t beat back 50 million that died in World War two. But at least he brought some life back in jovial and jolly. No PTSD. My mom to they they educated. They were well-rounded people. And the stories like I said, they were crisp and and then they had a lot of friends in the unlike what’s going on in the world now.

00:18:41:06 – 00:19:00:00
Robert Wolf
They had a lot of friends where I grew up in Michigan and throughout the world, from continental Africa, Asia had Indian friends, a muslim, Christian, Jewish, fellow Holocaust survivors. They shared the stories and, and I, I bought into it. I got a little burnout from it. And then, I brought it back to life, at least in my own legacy towards my family.

00:19:00:00 – 00:19:15:00
Robert Wolf
So, I got this app, you know, Superman’s Kryptonite. You just sort of called out to me, you know? It’s summoned me back in me. So. And so I’m doing it, and I. I couldn’t leave this on a disc. I couldn’t leave it on computer. And so that’s why we’re sharing it. But, very well done by my mom and dad, you know.

00:19:15:00 – 00:19:16:09
Robert Wolf
So.

00:19:16:11 – 00:19:43:12
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, well, I’m glad that you are telling that story to to because the world does need to know. And the part that kind of made me think that was when you talking about the the photos and things like the Nazis and the Soviets took. But again, putting yourself in that perspective, a difference from watching a movie today versus versus being there when you like the people that took the photographs to document a lot of that, those wouldn’t be photographs that you’re parents and grandparents would have had access to because they were taken by the people doing a lot of it.

00:19:43:12 – 00:19:53:06
Dan LeFebvre
So it’s not something that they’re going to show. So I was very curious how that story then survives despite trying to be suppressed.

00:19:53:09 – 00:20:12:02
Robert Wolf
Yeah. No, you’re right. I mean, but very, very little, belongings left over, from my dad’s side of the family. My mom saved a lot of photographs, and somehow they were preserved, by my mom. So it was a little less harrowing. My mom was in hiding, you know, with her mom, grandma, uncle, grandfather who’s different, you know, on farms and sometimes in Budapest.

00:20:12:02 – 00:20:35:14
Robert Wolf
So she was able to preserve more things. And as a and she also was into genealogy. And I wish I followed it a little bit more, but I do at least have back to World War one. I can’t go back there beyond that. But no, it’s unimaginable. The fear that my mom must add in hiding to and and the fear my dad must have had every day competing and starving and and doing forced labor for hours from, you know, dawn to dusk.

00:20:35:16 – 00:20:52:07
Robert Wolf
Can’t. I can’t imagine it. So, the reality and also photographs. So the Nazis were they took a lot of photographs. They, they sent them home to their families, let them know what they’re doing. And I have a collection of about 18,000 photos on my phone, and some of them are exceptionally disturbing. The last guy surviving in Vilna.

00:20:52:09 – 00:21:18:00
Robert Wolf
They’re about to kill him, and he’s surrounded by, mostly Nazi, officers. And there’s a gun pointed aside, and he knows he’s next. Reminds a little Schindler to you, but he’s the last survivor. They’re a very disturbing photo. I haven’t shared it because they’ll probably kick me out of X and meta and LinkedIn. If I were, were to, the, you know, the burning synagogue is another one, the smashed in homes, the burning homes, one disturbing one.

00:21:18:05 – 00:21:40:09
Robert Wolf
Well, they’re marching off the Jewish people. And I’m thinking, well, who’s taken a picture of all of this and not helping? You know, and these people lived in fear, of course. Another, disturbing photo. I’ve got some from juror. My dad’s home town. Very, very few, very few available. Another one is Kristallnacht. Whether the business, the glass is all broken up and the lady’s walking by the business smiling, I mean, I.

00:21:40:10 – 00:22:00:02
Robert Wolf
How do you smile when she got what? Are you, Jewish? You’re not smiling. If you’re Christian, you smiling, then, Well, I, I guess I know what party you’re in. You’re in the Nazi party or the Christmas party are very sadistic. Some and Christians were afraid for their lives, too. So the ones that helped the Jewish people or the gays, you know, almost sexual, LGBTQ, disabled, they’re there to be loud.

00:22:00:02 – 00:22:15:03
Robert Wolf
It, including guys like Schindler and Raoul Wallenberg is another one that comes to mind. So a lot going on. I can’t imagine being so remote and, and, secluded from the truth, let alone the news.

00:22:15:06 – 00:22:50:28
Dan LeFebvre
If we shift back to the movies you mentioned life is beautiful, and that’s another movie I want to talk about. That one starts in 1939, just after the annexation of Austria. And it follows the story of how life changes around a Jewish man named Guido before and during the rise of fascism in Italy. And the movie, it starts off with everyday life, but one of the key differences between life is Beautiful and the Sound of Music that we talked about before is that Life Is Beautiful shows how life changes for the main character because he’s an Italian Jewish man, whereas the Von Trapp family in the sound of Music, they’re not so well.

00:22:50:28 – 00:23:12:22
Dan LeFebvre
I, I we see little signs here and there and Sound of Music. We can see the signs in life and beautiful. Life is beautiful. Those signs are clearly the rise of anti-Semitism. They’re going on in Italy now. In particular, there was a scene where Guido pretended to be an inspector of Rome teaching children in school how they are pure Aryan, the superior race.

00:23:12:25 – 00:23:34:00
Dan LeFebvre
He doesn’t have very comical way in the movie, similar to later in the movie, when Guido’s young son just reads a sign in business window that says no Jews or dogs, and Guido makes a joke about there’s just saying. There’s also a drug store nearby saying that I’m not going to let Chinese in with kangaroo. Right. And he’s making a joke out of out of this very serious situation.

00:23:34:03 – 00:23:49:21
Dan LeFebvre
And that storyline in like Life Is Beautiful is a fictional one. Guido is not a real person, but how old do you think life is beautiful? Did showing signs of anti-Semitism slowly growing in everyday life before the outbreak of World War two?

00:23:49:24 – 00:24:06:05
Robert Wolf
Great question. I mean, that’s an our answer, but fantastic movie. Beautifully done. The cinematography is outstanding. I’m glad you mentioned that scene, because to me, that’s the turning point in the movie. The better part of the first half of the movie is about It’s a Beautiful Life. It’s a wonder it’s not It’s a Wonderful Life.

00:24:06:05 – 00:24:27:20
Robert Wolf
That’s a different, fantastic movie, too. But life is beautiful there. He falls in love with this lady. He’s on the bicycle. It’s a lot of humor. I mean, a lot of humor in that movie. Even to the end. And, you know, it’s admirable how he hides the truth from his son throughout, but, yeah, that’s the turning point in the movies when he’s up there talking about the the perfect race or our rewards it.

00:24:27:27 – 00:24:45:01
Robert Wolf
And then the poor, his relatives horse getting painted, I think was green and purple. I forget the color. Maybe green. That’s good. And. Yeah. And and that’s the turning point there. And then all of a sudden, boom, they’re, they’re in prison and they’re going off to, to concentration camps, different some different things.

00:24:45:09 – 00:25:04:29
Robert Wolf
Some of the similarities with my, my parent, they don’t talk about women that much, but both that movie and similar, the, the women, the women guards, especially at Auschwitz and then in these concentration camps were to me more sadistic and more brutal to the prisoners than, than otherwise. Interestingly, a lot of Nazis, the people that were guarding them were the Germans, the Nazis.

00:25:04:29 – 00:25:22:27
Robert Wolf
So where were the Italians? That’s that’s a little bit different than Hungary, I think, because the Hungarians were the ones who keep an eye on the force. Laborers, and child, my dad’s parents were taken from their home. That was, that was a Nazi. Blue striped pajamas. Interesting. It’s a, you know, we don’t know what color stripes they have in general because black and white movie, but it’s blue stripes.

00:25:22:27 – 00:25:39:21
Robert Wolf
But we all know that, you know, outfits in other places, they were, red stripes. So that was, another thing that, that was those was a familiar, but, or different, I should say. I thought, one thing similar with the both of those movies is the language was a little fast for me. It’s in subtitles.

00:25:39:24 – 00:25:56:13
Robert Wolf
Well, I think they just talked a little bit faster. Was a little. Because, you know, we can read fast, but it just won’t have the pace or the how they talk. Maybe at the very beginning, speed it up because it makes the humor, the humor scenes a little more humorous, so to say, so to speak. But, yeah, they kind of slow that down a little bit, too.

00:25:56:15 – 00:26:12:21
Robert Wolf
What else are we? Yeah. I mean, that’s, just a fact. The met the end was unbelievable. The way the they say, do they want or try? They’re playing in a game to win a tank and they won. You know, the kid survives, but he doesn’t. The mom survives. Was a Dora. And, you know, of course you gets shot.

00:26:12:23 – 00:26:31:18
Robert Wolf
He gets shot for warning. The ladies, including his wife, as are being hauled away in a truck. So another thing that may not be realistic is the son and the father in the same bunk. Because the kids were separated, like in Auschwitz and other places, and like a and Schindler, you know, the kids are all the way, in bundles.

00:26:31:18 – 00:26:52:14
Robert Wolf
And boy, are the parents freaking. They’re all running towards the fences and trying to follow the trucks and talk about learned helplessness and senior kids being all the way to who knows where. So that part may not have been as realistic. But yeah, it was such a well-done movie. And, and I don’t know that much about the Italian history in, in World War Two, so that’s that.

00:26:52:14 – 00:27:11:10
Robert Wolf
But comparing what you to the other movie and to what I’ve read and done, and learned about pretty realistic, I mean, in their own way. Obviously not every concentration camps will be the same. Not a forced labor camps going to be the same. The different guards, different, food supply, who knows? Different amounts of sadism.

00:27:11:12 – 00:27:21:00
Robert Wolf
It’s people to take orders and people that delight in torturing others. And that’s so hard to put your arms around to. It’s just. I don’t know how people could be like that at all.

00:27:21:02 – 00:27:41:21
Dan LeFebvre
But you mentioned Schindler’s List, and whenever we think of movies that depict the Holocaust, that’s probably the first one that does come to mind. In that movie, we see what life is like in the Jewish ghetto. Of course, Schindler’s List depicts the ghetto in Krakow, Poland, but your grandparents were forced to move to another Nazi controlled Jewish ghetto in your Hungary.

00:27:41:23 – 00:27:44:15
Dan LeFebvre
I’m probably mispronouncing that, but.

00:27:44:18 – 00:27:49:18
Robert Wolf
My Hungarians not so. They never taught me, so I. It’s fine. That was their shooting around which.

00:27:49:20 – 00:27:57:21
Dan LeFebvre
But based on the research that you did for your book, were there similarities to what we see in Schindler’s List and in the ghetto there, and what your grandparents dealt with?

00:27:57:24 – 00:28:19:27
Robert Wolf
Many, many, many. First, I want to talk about, so many. I mean, unfortunately, the movie was in black and white, but the cinematography in that movie is unbelievable. Like I said, they talk a little fast, especially when they’re talking about people’s names a little fast for me, some of the conversation, but, amazing. Some overlap when when they’re taken to Auschwitz, we don’t know if it’s accidentally or if it’s on purpose.

00:28:20:04 – 00:28:37:05
Robert Wolf
And they put them in the chamber and they think that that’s it. The gas chamber and the relief showers. I can picture my mom, my my grandmother, in the in the gas chamber. And, of course, when they’re on trains, when I visit Holocaust museums, when I do book talks, book lectures, I can’t even go into the I.

00:28:37:05 – 00:29:01:10
Robert Wolf
It’s hard to even look in the train, let alone go in the train just because. Just because that imagery. So, so that resonates. The dramatic irony. I guess I can get that, in a minute, but, the random shooting. Okay, so dramatic irony. I’m going to mention the three things where I well, first of all, the turning point is when they’re horseback riding and they’re randomly shooting all the people in the ghetto, the people that stayed, the people that that tried to hide very, very sad scene.

00:29:01:10 – 00:29:18:21
Robert Wolf
Because every. And you know, another thing that’s not talked about is pets. You know, how many did the pets get left behind and the pets get killed. And we know in, life is beautiful. There’s a little kitten, is strolling around the, the clothes that were stolen. Another thing. And I’m going to go back to the dramatic irony, another thing that resonates.

00:29:18:24 – 00:29:35:21
Robert Wolf
With all of it is the stolen luggage. They bring your goods, leave them here, and they’ll come. They will arrive. Big deception. And when my dad’s parents were all to Auschwitz, it was to be they were going to go to forest or farm, plant flowers, trees. Do you know, do, work on the foliage? That’s what.

00:29:35:21 – 00:29:53:15
Robert Wolf
That’s how they were to see. And they end up going to Auschwitz. So. So three points of dramatic irony, not necessarily related to my, my dad, but one is actually. So when, the, engineer they’re building the they’re constructing the building and the engineer comes up to, I think it’s almond goes, I don’t know if I’m pronouncing or I’m on both.

00:29:53:15 – 00:30:09:27
Robert Wolf
He’s the I think he’s a lieutenant, but he’s the most sadistic guy around. And, she says to me now, the structure is not sound, and we need to do this and maybe even start again. And, what does he say? We are not going to argue with these people. And and then he asks the guy shooter, shooter.

00:30:09:27 – 00:30:28:01
Robert Wolf
And it’s one of the few scenes where somebody gets shot and it’s not him doing it. So amazingly enough. And then the irony is that he decides to he changes his mind and, and decides to, to take it down and start all over again. Another irony was, the the lady that comes to Schindler, I don’t know if that was Helen Hirsch.

00:30:28:04 – 00:30:50:13
Robert Wolf
Helen, her hair, shoes, how to pronounce it. I don’t know if it’s her or the other one, but she comes to Schindler and says, can you get my parents into this? Into the factory here? And he says, you know, he’s practically screaming at her, saying, no, I can’t save everybody this and that and that. And then the guy escapes from the camp and, and just, randomly shoots 25 guys and then just Clarkston.

00:30:50:13 – 00:31:23:23
Robert Wolf
If I’m pronouncing Sharon I love, they really did their best trying to do the correct pronunciation and I think an accurate job. But stern tells Schindler that, you know, 25 people died. So Schindler, goes out of his way to bring in, the lady’s parents, which is which is pretty cool, too. I mean, and, so the other irony and oh, that resonates with my dad in the forced labor camp where, an officer would get drunk and some, some little piece of malfeasance, like somebody chirping a word or or moving in the line, and the guy gets past and he’s,

00:31:23:25 – 00:31:40:18
Robert Wolf
And he’s got the he’s got the gun. And, you threatened to shoot every tense man, in his drunk, in his drunk, state, and, in the end, doesn’t. But imagine the fear. You know, you dad, it can seem like that. And everybody else counting 1 to 1 through ten, you know, every 10th man they’re going to kill.

00:31:40:20 – 00:31:58:01
Robert Wolf
And, And the guy does that, too. He’s got the whole line of the men, and he shoots the guy with the, with the, I don’t remember. It’s a gun shot. I think it was a, shotgun. And then they shoot him in the head and and that, like, that scene is so vivid. The way that was bleeding, it would’ve been even more so in color.

00:31:58:04 – 00:32:16:22
Robert Wolf
But the irony there is the same thing. Just like when he randomly shoots the 25 men and, also the one person, and then he says, who’s, you know, who’s next? And then the kid smart enough to step forward and said, you know, you who did this? Who’s the one who created the malfeasance? And the kid points at the dead guy and probably saved a lot of lives, just by doing that.

00:32:16:22 – 00:32:36:01
Robert Wolf
So that’s more irony. And then and, and comparable with my dad had to go through, you know, random threaten to be killed randomly and thank God, they, they didn’t carry that out. The other piece of irony, which is almost redemption itself, is when, the I think it was the rabbi, was one of the older men making the parts, and his productivity was on the low side that compared it.

00:32:36:01 – 00:32:52:17
Robert Wolf
You know, it took some a minute to make the part, which is where you got so few partially take him out to shoot him and his gun jams and, you know, his backup gun jams, and he gets a gun from his, mother, the fellow officers and or soldiers, I don’t remember. It was an officer. And that gun jams and there’s 15 or 20 clicks.

00:32:52:19 – 00:33:08:03
Robert Wolf
We shoot this guy, and the poor guy’s got his neck going down. He knows he’s going to die any second. It reminds me of that, the Vilna, the Vilna photograph. And then he ends up just sitting with the butt of the gun and and lets him live. Imagine going through that kind of trauma and not having PTSD.

00:33:08:05 – 00:33:23:13
Robert Wolf
It’s amazing. But the irony is, when they hang golf, they have a trouble date. They’ve got him by the rope, but they have trouble checking out those. The step stool underneath him, it takes some at least like a half a minute. They can’t do it in the guy. So that’s a little bit of redemption too. But, more dramatic irony.

00:33:23:13 – 00:33:42:17
Robert Wolf
So I it’s a fantastically bad movie. And and so, so similar in in his point, you know, the trains and the, or the, forced labor and, you know, we see forced labor, of course, in concentration camps to sometimes women, sometimes men. We don’t talk about much about forced labor in, with women in our story.

00:33:42:17 – 00:33:48:08
Robert Wolf
But lately I’ve been taught and enlightened about that part, that part of it as well.

00:33:48:10 – 00:34:06:19
Dan LeFebvre
Something that we don’t see in Schindler’s List much is, is how others in the city reacted to the ghetto being set up and the Nazis moving the Jews into it. How did the civilians in and around Europe react to the Jewish ghetto being established for when your your grandparents were there?

00:34:06:21 – 00:34:23:12
Robert Wolf
Well, once they were in the ghetto, they had no access to the outside world. They had limited food, limited medical supplies and my dad, being a dentist, brought what he had. But it wasn’t enough. And ultimately it was to carry him off to Auschwitz to kill them. Most of them immediately, unfortunately. So I don’t think they had much time to even think about it.

00:34:23:12 – 00:34:48:26
Robert Wolf
But during, I’ll say this, that, but they were shunned. No doubt it was hard to go out shopping without being, bullied or picked on or even mugged. We talk about that in the or the fear of it. And also when my, my dad and his friend Frank were out on leave or whatever it was in town, or in that they were on camp, for one thing they didn’t have, then my dad needed a haircut.

00:34:48:26 – 00:35:06:12
Robert Wolf
And if you remember that scene, the anti-Semitic barber. But, they had the yellow bands was ridiculous hats that they had to wear and yellow bit unarmed paramilitary. And yeah, a couple what beautiful women walk by and they, they, they won’t even look at them. And believe me, the matter, they’re dying to meet A and B with a a warm blooded girl.

00:35:06:12 – 00:35:26:18
Robert Wolf
And it just didn’t happen. You were shunned. So, in its learned helplessness. I mean, people feared for their lives, for sure. And, they did what they were told, and and it’s scary stuff. So, and then. Oh, that remind me of another scene where in Schindler, the young girl, is yelling out, Goodbye Jews, goodbye Jews!

00:35:26:18 – 00:35:44:17
Robert Wolf
And, it’s awful to see that, because I think it reminds me of, what we just talked about. The Christians turning on the Jews. It also reminds me of what’s going on in Gaza at the, these children are being educated to hate Jewish people, hate Israel, hate Americans. And it’s that’s got to stop. That really has to stop.

00:35:44:20 – 00:36:03:18
Dan LeFebvre
There is a scene in in Schindler’s List where we see the Nazis going in there clearing everyone out of the ghetto, to take them to the concentration camps. You talked a little bit about that in the movie. The camps they take them to first is off, and then later in the movie we see Auschwitz, which you mentioned, and we’ll talk about Auschwitz in a moment, because I know your grandparents were there.

00:36:03:18 – 00:36:22:07
Dan LeFebvre
But according to Schindler’s List, seeing the brutality of the Nazi soldiers during the liquidation of the ghetto, that’s what leads Liam Neeson’s version of Oskar Schindler to start working with one of his employees. You mentioned him earlier. Is Doc Stern, Ben Kingsley’s character, to hire more and more Jews to help save them from being murdered by the Nazis.

00:36:22:09 – 00:36:36:13
Dan LeFebvre
Were there any transformational points like this for the civilians in Darfur in Hungary, where they started to change their minds about what they’re seeing? But the brutality of the Nazis, like, we kind of start seeing it happening in Schindler’s List with Oskar Schindler.

00:36:36:16 – 00:36:52:09
Robert Wolf
Well, great point. You know, that’s the turning point of that movie. If I haven’t already mentioned, when they’re horseback riding. Yeah, they’re looking down at that. One thing that resonates, too, is, the humiliation, the the general, the the men, the rabbis, you know, religious with the pious ain’t undercutting it. And they’re cutting their hair and laughing.

00:36:52:15 – 00:37:11:18
Robert Wolf
So that kind of humiliation, was there so humiliation we don’t talk about, as much. I think the Aryans were. And Hungary gets mentioned later that they were bringing in Hungarians, to one of the camps late, later in the movie. And that was true later in time, during at least a couple of years later. But that humiliation really, really resonates.

00:37:11:18 – 00:37:30:24
Robert Wolf
Well, what else is it? Yeah. The marching, the other humiliation is that, Gough has his own personal woman slave that he ends up abusing y’all. She’s. She goes the food and probably sex. Well, there is there is a sex scene or two in there. And of course, at the end he beats her up and but she survives.

00:37:30:27 – 00:37:46:29
Robert Wolf
But he beats her up and it’s drunk or whatever. It’s the wine cellar. I basically remember that scene, but, humiliation is a big thing about it. So, and then, of course, starvation is another one thing that resonates people to didn’t have food to eat. There was no there was no trade. There was nothing coming in. So shunned is the best word.

00:37:46:29 – 00:38:08:15
Robert Wolf
And like we said before, the the witness, the witness was the next victim. I also remember, golf shooting randomly at people that were sitting down and taking a break. So, Oh, and know the dramatic irony. He has a kid cleaning out his bathtub, and he’s trying to put the saddle on his horse. I don’t know if it’s the same kid, but, the guy that the kid that can’t put the kettle on the horse properly.

00:38:08:17 – 00:38:25:12
Robert Wolf
It’s right after Schindler talks about power and the power of the power, if you can forgive. And he remembers that for a while. So he forgives the kid, for the for the saddle. But then when he screws up using the wrong material to clean his bathtub, he ends up shooting him. And, it’s just, What a sadistic guy.

00:38:25:12 – 00:38:40:24
Robert Wolf
I mean, I was a guy who deserved to be executed without, without trial. I mean, so many witnesses. So, Yeah, that whole process, of course, it’s never going to be the same at every camp, but what? People running around in fear that they might get shot or killed, or if they take a break, they’re going to get killed.

00:38:41:02 – 00:38:48:14
Robert Wolf
You can’t. It’s just, some furthermore that what people had to think in their minds and stay strong while they’re doing it.

00:38:48:17 – 00:39:11:18
Dan LeFebvre
That those, those types of things are, like you said, unfathomable. Like it’s I, it’s what I’m trying to unravel. A lot of this. But, you know, in our discussion here, but also there are just some things like we there’s only so much that we can do as we’re talking here in this conversation that just it’s not. It will never be enough.

00:39:11:18 – 00:39:20:03
Dan LeFebvre
I mean, there’s to to to tell the true story of it. I mean, it’s yeah, I’ve tried to have words, but yeah, I can’t even do that.

00:39:20:10 – 00:39:42:08
Robert Wolf
Well, it was talk about Christians. You know, if we had Hamas, we had Hamas tanks and armored armored cars, guns, tanks, then that horrible flag, you know, marched in the streets here and, and, Florida or where you’re from, Oklahoma. God bless, the heartland. We would be thinking different then, it would affect us more then we would have.

00:39:42:10 – 00:40:03:26
Robert Wolf
We’d have a lot more fear. Yeah, but it’s it’s patchy areas. It’s Canada, Australia, parts of the U.S anti-Semitic. So it’s not it’s not directly in our face. But that’s why I’m doing this is so that it doesn’t happen. I mean, that’s why, 99% of us are good people. 99% of us believe in work, family, occasional vacation, religion, and if possible, whatever the freedom to vote, freedom speech.

00:40:03:29 – 00:40:26:01
Robert Wolf
Is that 1% or less that the ruins are for everybody and not just Hamas, you know, Osama bin laden and Saddam Hussein? Hitler, Pol Pot, the list goes on and on. We can counteract with better names Jesus, Moses, Noah, MLK, Gandhi, that. So there’s a nice there’s a balance there. But, we’re still talking about hate and war rather than these other guys.

00:40:26:01 – 00:40:41:27
Robert Wolf
I mean, unless you’re a staunch Christian or Jewish or Muslim, I don’t think a lot I meant for this to happen. Where? I don’t know, I don’t know much about the Muslim religion, but I do have Muslim friends, and they’re peaceful, and, So what’s going. I mean, I can’t get my arms around it. And, the thing about this book.

00:40:42:01 – 00:40:59:15
Robert Wolf
Yeah. And the story is my parents knew that it would be necessary to share it because they didn’t think that the hate and the Jewish scapegoating issue would go away. And each year they’re right, 60, 80 on our years. And the disturbing part is people find different ways to maim and torture, punish, kill each other. And it’s really sad.

00:40:59:15 – 00:41:16:27
Robert Wolf
And I just I can’t feel it because as a radiologist, we’re into preservation of life. The beauty of the human body, the beauty of the anatomy, the cell and all this training to go through it. There’s no room for racism or prejudice in my field. But these people would just. They would think nothing about chopping your head off or killing somebody instantly.

00:41:17:00 – 00:41:37:07
Robert Wolf
No respect for human life. And I can’t wrap my my hands around that. It’s just not that. It’s not what I was built for. And so we educate, we try to spread the word. We do podcasts, we do, book talks, book presentations, TV interviews, in some cases radio. And, we get the point across while sharing good stories, amazing stories throughout.

00:41:37:07 – 00:42:05:13
Dan LeFebvre
A lot of if you go back to Schindler’s List throughout a lot of that movie, it it does recreate the I mentioned your passion and and Auschwitz and where there were hundreds of thousands of people that were murdered. And unfortunately, that number also includes your grandparents, which is a very moving story told in the book. I think a lot of people base their knowledge of concentration camps today on what we see in movies like Schindler’s List.

00:42:05:15 – 00:42:23:23
Dan LeFebvre
But I remember the story of like The Latrine. And in your book, we don’t ever see in the movie Schindler’s List at all. So there’s obviously other things there that we don’t we’re not going to see in the movie. But based on what you know of your grandparents experience, how well do you think Schindler’s List does capturing the horrors of Auschwitz?

00:42:23:26 – 00:42:44:19
Robert Wolf
I think it’s amazing. Like I said, the cinematography is amazing. The storyline and the brutality. We’ll go back to the women guards that were were tougher than one thing that resonates. So, I mean, I don’t like spoiling too meaning, but my my dad’s a miracle. And my dad found out what happened to his parents. An eyewitness who happened to survive Auschwitz and meet, meet up with him in his hometown of Jura.

00:42:44:19 – 00:43:06:28
Robert Wolf
I mean, all of those. That’s a miracle after miracle that that happened. But, Yeah, being in the train reminded me of, my my my grandmother, the grandparents I never met, but my grandmother, was an orphan, a little girl orphan. And they went straight to the chamber. So, and actually, when I did that, when I first did this project, turning it from autobiography to biography, I had to walk away from from the book.

00:43:06:28 – 00:43:25:24
Robert Wolf
I had to walk away from the story for at least a week, ten days, because it profoundly affected me. So, so. And, you know, I hate to say this, but fortunately, she didn’t have to it. Her life didn’t have to linger on for months, months at a time. And where you’re starving and you’re trapped and you were on your forced labor, and you don’t know when your last day is going to be, Schindler.

00:43:25:24 – 00:43:40:00
Robert Wolf
I think they capture all of that pretty well. I mean, everybody’s going to have a different story. But it didn’t go well. And then another thing that resonates is my my grandfather, who was a dentist who told the the, the intake people at the intake that he was a dentist was a doctor, and he might be useful.

00:43:40:06 – 00:43:55:27
Robert Wolf
So they assign him to cleaning latrines, and we don’t see that in Schindler. But we sure see all these kids hiding in Auschwitz, including the one that you get shut out by every other letter, every other kid. And then he’s up, he ends up diving into the feces and he hides in the latrine or whatever you want.

00:43:56:04 – 00:44:07:07
Robert Wolf
It’s disgusting. I mean, I can’t imagine what was the movie with the kid from India who does the same thing. He ends up diving into the, into the feces, and it just, the. Joe, remember that movie?

00:44:07:07 – 00:44:07:24
Dan LeFebvre
Yes.

00:44:07:29 – 00:44:10:07
Robert Wolf
And he’s on jeopardy or something like.

00:44:10:09 – 00:44:11:14
Dan LeFebvre
Slumdog Millionaire.

00:44:11:16 – 00:44:15:27
Robert Wolf
Yes. Very good. Thank you. I knew you were. No, you got a brilliant memory. I can.

00:44:15:27 – 00:44:17:01
Dan LeFebvre
Go on.

00:44:17:03 – 00:44:35:10
Robert Wolf
And that’s the. Yeah. That’s good. I mean, I need more people like you helped me with the message. This is why we’re doing this, too. But, talking about great movies and and a story that could be a movie. At least some people say that, so, so that resonate. Yeah. And then. So these were I went by at least my, my dad’s parents, didn’t have to endure all that.

00:44:35:12 – 00:44:51:20
Robert Wolf
I mean, if you’ve ever fasted just one day without food, it’s tough enough. I can’t imagine week after week, we would bury little food. And, you know, you’ve seen the pictures of the people that are skin and bones. Those that were lucky enough to survive. But, what a what a terrible life. They must have adapted and they had to live then.

00:44:51:22 – 00:44:56:13
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, it goes back to the words don’t really do it justice to to.

00:44:56:15 – 00:45:13:09
Robert Wolf
Not only that that personal. It’s the light. The light. So. So my dad’s father died probably of cholera week from the feces, you know. So that was, but there’s tuberculosis. There’s lice. My dad had a foot infection, when he was in, when he was forced labor camp, and he had lice a couple times. He had hepatitis.

00:45:13:09 – 00:45:30:10
Robert Wolf
He had a bad back. He had a lot going on. And then. And then recently talking about women in forced labor camps. There’s this guy in England, super nice and super dedicated to what we’re doing. He’s turning black and white photos into color photos, and he’s doing a good job, and he’s trying to get financial support for that.

00:45:30:12 – 00:45:48:13
Robert Wolf
But he did a, it was a short it was a short little documentary, maybe 2 or 3 minutes, maybe five, with conversion from black and white to color. And it was the forced labor. The women forced laborers from Hungary. And a lot of them had gangrene. They had gangrenous legs and gangrenous feet. And they actually, they depicted, what their skin look like.

00:45:48:13 – 00:46:12:14
Robert Wolf
And it’s brutal that. So, you know, you’d never think of gangrene. I mean, so a lot of health issues besides the starvation and lack of water to, of course, dehydration and, you know, electrolytes going to be off and, and, muscle mass goes and eventually you die because you’re, you’re malnourished. So I’m sure many, many people died from, I don’t know the exact numbers, but malnourishment, I’m sure, was not just getting shot or put in the gas chambers.

00:46:12:14 – 00:46:33:06
Robert Wolf
Just. Or other sickness, malnourishment, sickness. It’s just too much. It’s too much to think about. It’s 200. It is. And that need doesn’t need to happen. And it also resonates with Gaza. It with what’s the prisoners that are still there? I can’t imagine even if they released them today, the ones that are still alive, just talk about PTSD, talk about trying to overcome that kind of trauma, not knowing when your last day is.

00:46:33:06 – 00:46:38:03
Robert Wolf
Mostly that’s that’s the big thing, the wait and the boredom and, horror fun.

00:46:38:05 – 00:46:49:06
Dan LeFebvre
If we shift back to the movie, there’s, we’re talking about Schindler’s List, and that’s going to be the most popular movie about someone saving Jewish lives during the Holocaust. But it’s not the.

00:46:49:08 – 00:46:56:08
Robert Wolf
The Ten Commandments. Well, I gotta say, that’s a fantastic movie, too. But, I don’t mean. Sorry to interrupt. Yes.

00:46:56:09 – 00:47:01:15
Dan LeFebvre
No no no no no, that’s a that’s a classic a little bit outside the time frame that we’re talking about now.

00:47:01:15 – 00:47:07:18
Robert Wolf
And I’m kidding then Fiddler on the roof was another one. But it was a Rorschach. But, you know, that was a lot of anti-Semitism there too. But go ahead. I’m sorry.

00:47:07:18 – 00:47:41:02
Dan LeFebvre
I know you’re there’s another movie, called walking with the enemy about a Hungarian Jew named Ella Cohen, who he dresses up in an SS uniform to help rescue other Jews. Now, Ella Cohen is another fictional character, but he is based on a real person. Again, with with pronunciation. I believe it’s, Pincus Rosenbaum. He was disguised. He disguised himself in uniforms of the SS, the Hungarian Arrow Cross, which you mentioned earlier, the the Hungarian Lavant and the with the purpose of of saving, I believe hundreds of Jews.

00:47:41:04 – 00:47:51:15
Dan LeFebvre
During your research, did you come across other stories like Oskar Schindler or like Rosenbaum, of people who risked their lives to save the lives of others?

00:47:51:18 – 00:48:11:04
Robert Wolf
Raoul Wallenberg, my my, my dad and his friend Frank had those, passes, those forged papers. And he did, I don’t know, hundreds, thousands of them to help save people. Wallenberg was from Sweden, if I’m not mistaken. And I believe he was Jewish, but fantastic what he did. You going back to Schindler real quick is the way he laments.

00:48:11:04 – 00:48:26:23
Robert Wolf
You know this. Amongst all the murders he did no lamentation. You know. No. No sense of, of of, of mortality, no sense of, what’s the word I’m looking for? It just does. It doesn’t bother. And it doesn’t affect you.

00:48:26:25 – 00:48:29:21
Dan LeFebvre
No sense of decency. I mean, humanity, like Mr..

00:48:29:25 – 00:48:49:17
Robert Wolf
Schindler saving all these people. And he’s still got his car and he’s still got, like, enough jewelry or whatever. Yet on on him, he used his rings and he still your e remorse about. That’s the what I was and will remark you remorse is he elements about how he could have saved another eight or 10 or 12 Jewish people and and they had to console him because of that.

00:48:49:17 – 00:49:19:28
Robert Wolf
He cries, he breaks down. It’s a real it’s a real irony too. So, Yeah, but, but so he helps. So like Wallenberg, probably countless, Christian people, the Christians out, my dad, I mean, he wouldn’t survive without a lot of Christian help. Now, these aren’t famous stories, but being able to go to a casino, and hide in a casino, hide in a, a nunnery or, nursing home, with demented people and and, where else did he, his friend, hiding in a haberdashery and a hatbox, that kind of thing.

00:49:19:28 – 00:49:36:08
Robert Wolf
A lot of Christians help them. And then even after that, during communist Hungary, my my dad was getting, a few shekels sent, from Israel, from my mother’s mother and stepfather at this point, who was a Marky Mark in Israel, a consulate to Hungary. So they’d sneak them a few shekels, to, to this place in Budapest.

00:49:36:08 – 00:49:53:03
Robert Wolf
And my dad, it was a cloak and dagger story, the way my dad had to weave in and out of buildings to sneak to get that money, because he could have been in prison for that, too. So, a lot of people helped Jewish and Christian. Those that could a lot didn’t, again, fear for their lives. Not a lot of famous, well, here’s one actually.

00:49:53:03 – 00:50:14:15
Robert Wolf
Sorry. In communist Hungary, though, it’s not. My parents had an illegal Jewish wedding in 1953. My mom’s uncle, what? He sponsored that in his home. And like I say, it was illegal, and KGB was there, so, and my parents, when my parents, were on their honeymoon, the. He got arrested. He was a surgeon, chief of surgery in a Budapest hospital.

00:50:14:18 – 00:50:30:28
Robert Wolf
And they Waldemar for 13 months tortured him and, try to get him to confess to the to the murder. I think it was Wallenberg, if I’m not mistaken. So. And he wouldn’t he wouldn’t do it. And he was he came back a broken man, and obviously. And then they put him out in some rural clinic or something.

00:50:31:00 – 00:50:55:22
Robert Wolf
He ended up, ironically, in Sweden, where he had a successful career, and, solo daughter Susie, who was the last survivor in my book and just died in Jerusalem. Couple that soon after the attacks. 12 or 7. So she was comatose at the time and long standing on. And so as bad as that was, and it was great busier the year before, at least enough to know, about what was happening in Gaza and Israel.

00:50:55:22 – 00:51:22:01
Robert Wolf
So, all of them rest in peace. But yeah, so there’s famous and there’s not so famous in the autobiography. My dad mentions Mengele, that that is that Mengele greeted his father. But, the research that we this was a lot of research in our book, multiple people, historians, but, Berenbaum, Michael Berenbaum, who was one of the professors who wrote a tremendous, testimonial to other professors, did too.

00:51:22:02 – 00:51:38:06
Robert Wolf
They’re all good. But he mentions that don’t mix up where we’re talking about an Auschwitz because he had been there. He knows the history. And so we we took out Mengele. But, it may well be. And this is speculation that my dad’s father met Mengele, and he was the one that appealed since he was a doctor, too.

00:51:38:08 – 00:51:54:27
Robert Wolf
He was brutal himself, right? I mean, taking our feelings and using, humans as, for experiments and all that. But, if it was him or whoever it was, I guess I can’t call it nice, but got him a week’s worth. Two weeks worth of life, even though that week was miserable. So there are people that,

00:51:54:29 – 00:52:04:00
Robert Wolf
Yeah, the circles there are overlapping circles, for sure. And, as soon as we are done, I’ll probably think a couple more or two, but, you never know. And that’s a great question.

00:52:04:02 – 00:52:23:15
Dan LeFebvre
I think it’s great to know that. I mean, there are the famous one. Oskar Schindler obviously is famous, but he’s famous because of the movie and and the book and the as well. But he wasn’t doing it for fame. And there’s, you know, a lot of these stories, like you’re talking about the they’re not well known now, but that’s not why they were doing it.

00:52:23:15 – 00:52:54:21
Dan LeFebvre
They were doing it to help fellow humans. And I think that’s that in and of itself is a little bit of a light in, you know, in this dark time of history where there’s all this going on. But there are some people that will help. And I I’m happy to hear that. Yes, there were others that even though we might not know their names and whoever’s listening to this may not know their names, but they were still hoping because it was the right thing to do, not because they wanted to get their name, you know, a movie made about them.

00:52:54:26 – 00:53:00:16
Dan LeFebvre
So that we’d be talking about them on a podcast later. But, you know, it’s just the right thing to do.

00:53:00:18 – 00:53:20:26
Robert Wolf
Yeah. No, it’s it’s very palpable. And, you know, you really identify with Schindler and you always have the it’s another ironic thing. You have the swastika. Yeah. The little swastika on a super all the time. But it was, it was this guys, you know, that was it. But you’re right. He just did it out of, the love for human beings and and that that goes for Moses and that goes for Jesus and Gandhi and all these other former leaders.

00:53:20:26 – 00:53:35:03
Robert Wolf
And, of course they got some recognition, of course. But, and another one that comes to mind is Captain Khomeini. If you remember his, he’s the one who got them the forged papers. And, and I believe if I did my memory short, I’m going through my book again. You have to. Every so often. There’s never all the details.

00:53:35:11 – 00:53:54:17
Robert Wolf
But, he might have been Jewish, but since he was a big guy in the military, he had, privileges. So he helped my dad out to more than once, too. So that was another one. You may have been Christian, maybe Jewish, but, I’m glad that my parents didn’t know more famous people because. Or my grandparents, I should say, because, that to me, been more apt to be killed.

00:53:54:19 – 00:54:10:25
Robert Wolf
It didn’t matter anyway. But, if they lived in the out in the middle of nowhere, which Jer was, and it was a, pretty, very populated, industrial town. So, and that was it. They were they were in Transylvania first. And Albert. Julia, if I’m not pronouncing that right, might be I mean, if it was Spanish would be Albert.

00:54:10:27 – 00:54:42:04
Robert Wolf
Julia, I guess, or Julia it might be, but. Albert. Julia. So they they loved Mother Hungary, as do my parents. And, they decided to go back to George. So instead of living Transylvania. So. And that might have been an ill fated decision to my mom and dad. Love mother Hungary, too, by the way, and would have probably stayed if the Americans had taken over rather than the Soviets, because they had had enough with the two wars and, and and countless persecution, illegal weddings, torture, deaths and, deception.

00:54:42:04 – 00:54:58:18
Robert Wolf
You know, their, their colleagues and friends and fellow doctors were trying to get them to convert to the communist ideal. And my parents wouldn’t buy into that. And, and that state, the the Soviets, in their arrogance, called my dad not a real enemy. And that’s what they really were. They love Mother Hungary, but they weren’t going to stay.

00:54:58:21 – 00:55:13:17
Robert Wolf
My mom was a med school, by the way, to winning them. So. And dad was already in okay. And and he had to double down as a trauma surgeon during a revolution. So they’re both frontliners. And after that they said and they were closing the borders and people were leaving in droves. But they managed to get out.

00:55:13:21 – 00:55:19:13
Robert Wolf
That’s my dad’s fourth escape, which is they’re all harrowing, but, memorable for sure.

00:55:19:15 – 00:55:42:17
Dan LeFebvre
Right. Mentioning Hungary and, earlier I mentioned Ben Kingsley and Schindler’s List and that how that movie started in 1939. But Ben Kingsley is in another movie called walking with the enemy, and he plays another person that you mentioned, Regent Horthy, the Hungarian leader. That movie takes place in 1944, when the Germans finally occupy Hungary. And Regent Horthy doesn’t want to let the Nazis take the Jews.

00:55:42:17 – 00:55:58:02
Dan LeFebvre
So he’s trying to sign a deal with the Soviet Union to get the Nazis out of Hungary. But then in a group called Arrow Cross, which you had also mentioned earlier, takes control of Hungary up until the Red Army pushes the Nazis out of the during the siege of Budapest. This is all as far as the movie is concerned.

00:55:58:02 – 00:56:03:09
Dan LeFebvre
But what really happened with Hungarian, Polish artists during World War Two?

00:56:03:11 – 00:56:20:21
Robert Wolf
Oh well, that’s you. And you kind of said it yourself. I mean, you needed a guide. You needed it literally. So Horthy takes over after he was an admirable admiral in World War One. He takes over Hungary again. The Jews feel like he’s he’s not, friendly to the Jews, even though what if what you say is true, that might be the opposite.

00:56:20:21 – 00:56:23:24
Robert Wolf
But, kudos to him for for trying to prevent that.

00:56:23:26 – 00:56:26:25
Dan LeFebvre
Well, I was in the movie. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but that’s the way the movie presents.

00:56:26:25 – 00:56:40:06
Robert Wolf
Oh, yeah. Got to see the movie in and review the book and compare notes. There’s not a lot in the book about there’s a lot of history, but it’s it’s history light. I call it my coauthor, Janice. If it weren’t for her, I wouldn’t be here. She’s a fantastic writer, but helped me turn the book and something really special.

00:56:40:06 – 00:56:56:26
Robert Wolf
But, if you were a junior school, they had the red chair. There’s a white chair. You know, you didn’t have communism. It was in then. They’re trying to say communism is no good. They’re beating up people. They’re going door to door. And then, of course, the rise of fascism, the Nazis entering, the, entering Hungary.

00:56:56:26 – 00:57:27:26
Robert Wolf
So the political climate then was you did what the Nazis said or you’re screwed. You know, that was Hungary trying to fight Germany. It was horse horses versus tanks, you know. How does that let me know how that goes for you. Right. And then, finally 1944 or 45, you Arrow cross, tremendously anti-Semitic. In my, I, maybe like a Gestapo or KGB type thing, they were worse to the Jews and they went out of their way opposite of Schindler, where, you know, the last day of the war and all the guards you only day, that’s all the guards.

00:57:27:26 – 00:57:42:24
Robert Wolf
And, in with the, prisoners, the laborers, and, he openly invites them to, to do what they want with them. Kill them or not. Or you can go home to your families, he says, and they all even go, well, that’s not what it was like in Hungary that at the end of the war, they went out of their way to kill as many Hungarians as they could.

00:57:42:27 – 00:58:07:09
Robert Wolf
And we all know about this. The Danube River, 21,000 Jewish people were shot to death, in cold blood, without their clothes on in the winter. December 43rd, January 44th. And, so that’s, it’s complete. Opposite of Schindler and it’s very set. So that’s the politics then. And of course, communism takes over. And, you know, we get the Stalin years and, and they wouldn’t go away.

00:58:07:09 – 00:58:25:20
Robert Wolf
And the irony is, like if the Americans had one or the West, the allies, then I probably wouldn’t be here. And I’d probably been born and raised in Hungary and maybe got lucky enough to go to med school. But they they left for the U.S., so. And then obviously, the Soviet, the Red Army and Soviet stayed on for forever and ever and ever.

00:58:25:23 – 00:58:45:13
Robert Wolf
Maybe now it’s a little bit of a democracy, but I don’t know much about recent Hungarian politics. But what I’ve seen and heard, the, Orban is, is Putin’s puppet. And, I could see him doing land for people. Deal, without dropping out. And let’s listen on. Jared’s never got a break for 80, 100 years, the most the majority of the 20th century was.

00:58:45:20 – 00:59:03:23
Robert Wolf
And the sad thing is, Hungarian Jews were. Well, if we’re going to flash, flash back to before World War one, 1890s, you know, the gay 90s and all that, Hungarian Jews and Jews in Europe were well treated. They were well respected. And and that boy that that climate turned, between world War one, World War two and and beyond with the Communist.

00:59:03:23 – 00:59:21:27
Robert Wolf
So, so Stalin dies in 53. That was good news. Hungarian, because he was really brutal, and I and Hungary in 56, they have their revolution. And, it goes badly for them. And then the hard liners became even more so because they were clamping down on the citizens. They didn’t want people to revolt.

00:59:21:27 – 00:59:37:12
Robert Wolf
And and they almost they didn’t almost win, but they almost got the Soviets out of there. And then just something changed about it. But instead of less, it became more with all the tanks coming in. And, that’s something that my dad said to the were that the men that were driving the tanks were from the Far East.

00:59:37:12 – 00:59:55:04
Robert Wolf
They were from, I don’t think it was Malaysia, maybe Burma. But they thought they were in Egypt. They thought they were in the Sinai, the Sinai War in 56. But they weren’t. They were. They were in Hungary fighting. So, that’s that was an interesting little tidbit. So it’s kind of like, oh, sorry, the North Koreans, you know, going to fight with the Russians kind of sounds like that, right?

00:59:55:04 – 01:00:01:08
Robert Wolf
They, they, you know, they recruit, they recruit people from other countries. Well, World War II was all about that, too.

01:00:01:08 – 01:00:26:05
Dan LeFebvre
But you you mentioned World War One and even before World War One, and that lead right into the last movie that I want to talk to you about, today’s, 1999 film, epic film called sunshine. I know up until now we’ve mostly talked about World War Two, but sunshine focuses on three generations of characters, all played by Ray finds across generations of a family called the Sun Shines, a, Hungarian Jewish family.

01:00:26:11 – 01:00:44:23
Dan LeFebvre
And the movie goes from the end of the 19th century with Hungarian nationalism through World War One, World War Two, and then into the Hungarian Revolution in 1956. And the first generation of the movie we see refines version of ignite, Sun and Shine. He wants to be a judge, but to do that he has to change his last name to something.

01:00:44:23 – 01:01:03:18
Dan LeFebvre
According to the movie is more Hungarian, so he changes it to show where there pressure even before the rise of fascism. Because in the movie this is happening, you know, before World War one and 19th century, was there pressure for Hungarians to hide their Jewish heritage?

01:01:03:20 – 01:01:18:12
Robert Wolf
Yeah. I’m thank you for reminding me of that movie, because I’ve heard of it recently and I didn’t remember the title. So if you don’t mind, please email me that, because that’s something that sounds like. But it’s totally, it’s encountered distinction too. Oh, he was in Schindler. I mean, that that kind of, that kind of wants to be a judge.

01:01:18:18 – 01:01:37:27
Robert Wolf
And he’s an excellent actor, don’t get me wrong. But, and so is the guy that played Schindler, you know, Liam, Liam Neeson, and we back to Ben Kingsley. But yeah, my dad’s parents converted. They converted to Christianity, reluctantly, but they did. And, it was so he could practice dentistry and hide his heritage. And my dad’s mother hated it, and.

01:01:37:27 – 01:01:55:00
Robert Wolf
But they did. So, and I’m sure a lot of other Hungarian Jews did. I mean, I’ve read about it and heard that other Hungarian used it in it, and of course, hiding certain valuables, hiding radios, hiding your religion. That was a part of your heritage. And it’s horrible thing. Now, they weren’t that religious, but for the Orthodox Jew either.

01:01:55:00 – 01:02:14:14
Robert Wolf
Good luck having that up. And, until they got to Auschwitz and you weren’t allowed to practice religion or do anything, they shaved off all your hair, humiliated you, killed you, clowns too. Not just the religious were clowns. But they were fortunate enough to convert back. My. I’m a mr. Cronenberg. My dad’s father’s, his cousin, just turns up.

01:02:14:14 – 01:02:30:21
Robert Wolf
I forget how the circumstances of how they meet, but he’s he’s wealthy, and he helps him open up a private practice, and they’re in their home and, lends the money or whatever. Maybe if ghost money and we don’t really talk about how it’s returned, if at all. But he has to convert. They have to convert back to Judaism.

01:02:30:21 – 01:02:45:13
Robert Wolf
And as soon as they get that news, my dad’s mom’s taking the cross off the wall. And, not that they didn’t like Christians because most of their friends were Christians, no doubt. Because they didn’t always share in with the Jewish people, especially the Orthodox. So, and so they converted back. So it was a big sacrifice for them.

01:02:45:18 – 01:03:02:19
Robert Wolf
I can’t imagine converting to Christianity. I love Christianity, I think it’s great religion and theory. I think, that Christians have had a hard time over the last, you know, thousand, 2000 years in certain cases. The Bible talks about the Spanish Inquisition. We talk about the Crusades. So all of that, both at both ends of it. Right.

01:03:02:19 – 01:03:23:06
Robert Wolf
And also Muslims and Jews as well, too. So, yeah, a lot of sacrifices they had to make, to finally get a life going, finally having my dad, who grows up, not wealthy, but, you know, upper middle, grows up as a spoiled kid, ironically ends up forced labor and gets through that. But, so the 20s were kind of easy on them.

01:03:23:09 – 01:03:37:02
Robert Wolf
But, in between where during, during certain times they had to convert at the either. And then of course, you couldn’t if you didn’t wear your yellow star or a yellow band. In my dad’s case, in the forced labor, you’d be punished or shot for sure. You’ll.

01:03:37:05 – 01:04:00:04
Dan LeFebvre
Well, you might have already answered my my next question on that one, because in sunshine, the next generation is very finds plays the same. He, he plays different characters in each generation. So in the first generation refines, character is ignites, and he’s trying to become a judge. And then the next generation, once the child grows up, they have a younger, you know, different actor playing the younger version, and he grows up.

01:04:00:04 – 01:04:18:27
Dan LeFebvre
And it’s also a great find, you know? But this time he’s Adam Shaw. And in Adam’s timeline, this is during World War two, and he has to convert. He converts to Roman Catholicism because Jews aren’t allowed to join the fencing club, which is what he wants to do. But then in the movie, obviously that doesn’t work. They find out about his Jewish ancestry.

01:04:18:27 – 01:04:31:29
Dan LeFebvre
And so you can’t just convert. It doesn’t doesn’t really work. So would it be with the movie’s concept there be correct that switching religions wouldn’t work as far as the brutality of the Nazis to escape that?

01:04:32:02 – 01:04:51:13
Robert Wolf
Probably not. I mean, I don’t even know how people know who’s Jewish and who is. And I mean, I have no idea what’s happened once the traumas, on the door. I mean, I, you know, I don’t know how they, how they could masterfully and systematically find them all and exterminate them. But, you bring up a good point, because my dad, my dad’s father, was Jewish.

01:04:51:13 – 01:05:13:02
Robert Wolf
He lost a government job as a dentist. They he had to be, first of all, let them do part time. And then they laid him off and they said, you know, no pension, no benefits. And then ultimately laid off. We talked about the sign. No Jews or dogs. That was out there in Hungary, too. So you weren’t allowed to fencing, you know, certain, bars, restaurants, places of worship, places of business.

01:05:13:02 – 01:05:27:14
Robert Wolf
So Jews weren’t allowed to go to. So and that same sign that we, we talk about in, life was beautiful and, also my dad was not allowed to be on the swim team because he was Jewish. And, my dad loved to swim. I was a pretty good swimmer in high school. I guess I got that from my dad.

01:05:27:14 – 01:05:44:23
Robert Wolf
I swam for four years, and, he did breaststroke, me butterfly and freestyle. But anyway, he had he was kicked off the swim team because he was Jewish. So, yeah, ramifications were there. And, very sad. And it’s too bad because his coach liked him and and his friends like them. And they were very sad for him, but there was nothing they could do,

01:05:44:25 – 01:06:02:03
Dan LeFebvre
Those sort of things. Again, it’s hard to wrap my head around because. So what does that have to do with swimming? Like it? Like you’re swimming in a pool in water. I mean, you’re competing in not to not to take away from how serious it can be for competitions and stuff, but it’s it’s still a sport and it’s similar.

01:06:02:03 – 01:06:21:02
Dan LeFebvre
We see the similar sort of thing in, in the movie with sunshine, except it’s fencing. He’s, you know, he’s fencing. He’s like, that’s part of the reason why he ends up he converts is because he’s like, this doesn’t really it doesn’t affect my how good I am at fencing and with my practicing. And I imagine a similar thing for, for swimming like it does, it doesn’t affect that.

01:06:21:02 – 01:06:29:17
Dan LeFebvre
And so it’s, it’s, it goes back to that concept of what as we’re talking about, it, there’s so much more that, you know, it’s just it’s hard to wrap your head around.

01:06:29:18 – 01:06:48:00
Robert Wolf
And so it’s awful now, you know, ironically, the Olympics came up in a recent podcast too, and y can every day be like the Olympics? Yeah. Why can’t we do peace negotiations and tear off negotiations in the hot tub, or over find a nice table with a tablecloth and, you know, nice silverware? The the Olympics, exemplifies that.

01:06:48:00 – 01:07:06:14
Robert Wolf
It’s the one time where for the 2 or 3 weeks that the all these countries get together, they compete, they put all the bibs, all the politics, all the disagreements off you know, back. They leave it on the field or behind them and they compete. And it’s great sportsmanship. And why can’t, why can’t our politicians, why can’t our leaders, do that?

01:07:06:14 – 01:07:24:14
Robert Wolf
I mean, it’s such a such a great lesson. So I love the Olympics, not only because I love sports, but also just that concept of, worldwide, a worldwide peace and, the amicable feeling that you got, and I just love it. I mean, third place, person congratulating the first on the gold medal winner, that kind of thing.

01:07:24:17 – 01:07:44:16
Robert Wolf
Arm in arm in arm, holding our flags. Just the fact, you know, we’re talking about kneeling and and, during, it’s not a big thing lightly, thank God. But kneeling or not respecting the national anthem, my mom and dad would spit in those people. They would be. How dare you? You know, we we were barely allowed to practice what we want in a free country.

01:07:44:16 – 01:08:04:15
Robert Wolf
How dare you do that in this country? And they would, think. I mean, they got to their dad, but they. I got the narrative experience, the the the people kneeling and and not respecting the flag, multi-millionaires, people that are privileged, privileged enough and talented enough, and marketable enough to to be in sports and make lots of money, be very popular.

01:08:04:15 – 01:08:24:06
Robert Wolf
And when they do that, it’s it just doesn’t hurt the snarling. And so those kind of things, that’s what we’re battling here. You know, we got to respect our country and our freedoms, and our luck and realize that what happened to my dad could happen to any one of us. Could be a bad neighbor. Bad local government, federal government, foreign government, natural disaster, bad business deal.

01:08:24:06 – 01:08:39:07
Robert Wolf
Whatever it is could happen to us where we’re on the run not knowing where your next meal is. So not only are we going to sleep, not not knowing if you’re going to get a job or where you will, and you still you’re still, you don’t know. You can’t meet people. You can’t be around people that that spot you and say, oh, there’s a Jew.

01:08:39:07 – 01:08:47:24
Robert Wolf
There’s, Because you hear that. So there’s we talk about the light at the end of the tunnel. Even during escapes, there was no such thing.

01:08:47:27 – 01:09:11:23
Dan LeFebvre
If we go back to sunshine, the last generation in that movie is Adam, son Ivan. And he survives World War two. But then he joins the communists because they seem to be the liberators of the brutality of the Nazis had inflicted in Hungary. But then, as the Hungarian Revolution breaks out in 1956, in the movie we see Ivan, he realizes the communists are brutal and corrupt also.

01:09:12:00 – 01:09:38:14
Dan LeFebvre
And then at the very end of that movie, Ivan learns from an old letter from his great grandfather, who was at the very beginning of the movie. It’s it’s a long movie. But he finds out that in this letter, it’s the goal is not to be accepted by others. And in this letter, as you reads it, Ivan then has the inspiration to change his name from shores back to sunshine to embrace his Jewish ancestry.

01:09:38:16 – 01:09:58:14
Dan LeFebvre
And like a lot of the movie characters that we’ve talked about today, the Shine is high. Family from the movie sunshine are fictional. They’re not real. But of course, the unimaginable hardships that they faced in the movie were real events that generations of of your family faced as well. So just like Ivan took lessons from his family’s past at the end of the movie and build a better life for himself.

01:09:58:14 – 01:10:09:04
Dan LeFebvre
As we kind of start to wrap up our discussion today, if you took a look at your family’s history, what’s one lesson that you’ve learned that people today can apply to create a better future?

01:10:09:06 – 01:10:26:04
Robert Wolf
I have to see that movie sunshine. It sounds. I mean, it sounds like they stole my stole my own story. Now, would you remind me? Because I do want to, but yeah, my, my mom’s uncle, Zoltan was she. He converted. He was a communist because he wanted to. He wanted to survive. And, my mom probably hated it, but he was.

01:10:26:04 – 01:10:43:18
Robert Wolf
It helped him. He was a he was a monkey in the government and in the economic the economic plan after World War two. And, I read some of the notes, those turned up and I it was really and I don’t mean to get off the subject, but it was really poignant and depressing actually saying, well, what what do we do with our, our Jews?

01:10:43:25 – 01:11:03:10
Robert Wolf
And they are mostly farms and factories. I’m not going to talk about military. I’m talking about the civilian Jews because they couldn’t work. They couldn’t be educated. Finally, they let my dad get into medical school, 10%, quota, which is 10% quota, which is amazing that he even got in. But, so but he was a communist, so he, you know, resonates really, really well with whatever.

01:11:03:10 – 01:11:23:24
Robert Wolf
My mom and dad wouldn’t buy into it as we already mentioned, that, like I said, this country is amazing. Accountability is an important. It’s an important message. Don’t point at people. It just, you know, after 911, we had Islamophobia. After the coronavirus epidemic. We had the Asian eight. Now tober seventh. That’s the Jewish people.

01:11:23:24 – 01:11:39:12
Robert Wolf
Well, what do I have to do with Gaza? And October 7th, I support Israel, I support peace, and, that that that unnecessary. You know, you’re wasting your time, with these protests, these kids in Colombia, you don’t know how good you have it. You know, I, I think people would tell the end of Harvard or Columbia or privilege.

01:11:39:12 – 01:12:03:24
Robert Wolf
They would be. And, people that are doing this and and protesting and calling for the death of Israel and America, it’s just there’s no room for it. Not for me, not for you, and not in this country. And so I identify with the peaceful people, try to get a handle around, at least. Finally, they’re curtailing funding for universities everywhere I could in there, I’d be showing them and and suing them and suing them and and doing more talks in the area.

01:12:03:24 – 01:12:20:28
Robert Wolf
I mean, believe me, that’s all I’m doing anyway, but we need to, appreciate what we have. Accountability. And if you’re bored with what you have, you got if you’re complaining, change vectors. If you don’t like your job, change jobs, work part time, write a book. Everybody’s got a story. Write a poem, write an opera. Go to the library.

01:12:20:28 – 01:12:37:28
Robert Wolf
Go to the museum. Spend more time with your family. Give back to the community. It’s not just about food, shelter, clothing. Unlike for my mom and dad and, all the victims, it’s all food, shelter and clothing. But for now, for us, I put a little more into your life, put a more pot, and, love your neighbor, you know, and I don’t I don’t mean to be corny.

01:12:37:28 – 01:12:57:02
Robert Wolf
Bring a neighbor some macaroons or whatever. Invite them for the Seder. Just get to know them better and embrace them. And things. And things. Well, it all starts. Leadership starts from within. You know, you’re not going to be a leader if you’re not a good person. If you’re not. And I don’t mean no Hitler leader because he just led by charisma and, and, all his, his garbage is, propaganda.

01:12:57:04 – 01:13:14:01
Robert Wolf
But, you can lead by example, and it’s never too late to do the right thing. There’s no substitute for experience. I got a lot of, you know, the trend is your friend, you can learn something from every case, as we say in radiology. But as now, I’ve been on both sides of the needle. You can learn something from every person you know.

01:13:14:01 – 01:13:30:13
Robert Wolf
You can learn from every situation. And don’t forget that, don’t be that. That dead shark swim in the water. Just keep on moving. And if you don’t like what you’re doing and don’t don’t watch and complain, do something else. Life is short here. It’s our only commodity. It’s. You know, time is. Our time is our only commodity.

01:13:30:13 – 01:13:41:24
Robert Wolf
It’s not gold or silver stocks, real estate. It’s time. So use it. Use it wisely. Like my dad used to say. Enjoy every moment. And now I understand why.

01:13:41:26 – 01:14:02:10
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, I love that I love that, and that’s one thing as we’ve talked about you just looking back to some of the movies we talked about, the concept that I get is a lot of the things that led to like the atrocities Auschwitz that we talked about. It didn’t jump right to that. It was there were steps that they got there.

01:14:02:13 – 01:14:26:01
Dan LeFebvre
And although we’ve we talked mostly about historical events that took place around World War Two today, a lot of people have compared the current climate here in the United States as I’m recording this, similar to the rise of fascism that resulted in Nazi Germany. And I’m just curious, from your perspective, do you think there’s any truth to those comparisons, or is that kind of overblown just, extremism?

01:14:26:03 – 01:14:44:26
Robert Wolf
That’s such a great question. It’s hard to know. I hope not. That’s why there’s people like me trying to prevent that from happening. Call Congress, call you local government. What are you guys doing about anti-Semitism? I’m still doing it. I hate getting ghosted. That’s a big part of it being rejected. I don’t mind getting rejected like people that are apathetic, but too much apathy is going to be the danger to us.

01:14:44:26 – 01:15:04:25
Robert Wolf
And if the Jewish population doesn’t survive, you know, the LGBTQ, the criticize the Jewish and African-Americans, if you guys are next and and those those that glorify Hitler, you guys were next. You just don’t even realize it. So, now in some ways, yeah, in some countries worse than here. But even in America, in World War two, there was the rise of anti-Semitism.

01:15:04:25 – 01:15:23:16
Robert Wolf
And, fortunately not fascism. But until the guns are pointed at me, I feel relief. As long as the government and the local police are protecting us, then I feel safe. Whatever. If it starts to turn. And we talked about the your armored trucks and tanks going down the streets with the flags. If it ever comes to that, then I’d say, well, no, we’re doomed.

01:15:23:16 – 01:15:45:23
Robert Wolf
But, at least for the short term. But, hopefully that never happens. I can’t see that happening. But you never know. I mean, Australia and Canada, Europe, it’s still going on. So it’s up to the government, the people that are supposed to protect others. As Reagan said, that’s what government’s job is not to and not to, to to take from others or its or to use the people.

01:15:45:23 – 01:15:52:00
Robert Wolf
It’s, it’s I’m paraphrasing, but a government’s job is to protect us. Jewish. Christian doesn’t matter. Muslim.

01:15:52:03 – 01:15:58:26
Dan LeFebvre
We’re all human. We’re all. We’re all. What is it? The JFK quotes, we all share this planet together or something. Something along.

01:15:58:26 – 01:16:17:23
Robert Wolf
Those lines. Exactly. No. It’s true, it’s true. And we’re we’re getting beyond that. Why are the Soviets and the Americans get along in space stations and the moon or whatever, but they can’t get along and Mother Earth, right? I mean, so that’s, it’s another thing like the Olympics. Yeah. It doesn’t even make sense to me. And probably Antarctica and Greenland and everybody is going to set up whatever.

01:16:17:25 – 01:16:33:08
Robert Wolf
And that works for me. You know, it’s so how about annexing Canada? What about that kind of concept? I, you know, people are thinking out of the box lately and maybe I like it, maybe I don’t, but it’s worth a look because things have to change. Canada needs a security alternative to the US. On and on and on.

01:16:33:13 – 01:16:55:13
Robert Wolf
And maybe it’s good economically too, unless it’s come up. And I don’t know that it would be so complicated. And I know our resistance. The natives would be, Mexico. Maybe not so much, but that would be scary for me because I think it’s a it’s got it’s violent areas and etc.. But interestingly, a Jewish woman is the new president of Mexico, so and a Jewish lady is, is the new mayor of Beverly Hills.

01:16:55:13 – 01:17:15:18
Robert Wolf
So, that gives me hope. I think that’s great. I mean, I love California, and if it weren’t so expensive, I maybe I would live there instead of Florida. But, with who knows? And it’s one of the liberal for me, too. But, you know, it’s a great state and, many, many people. So it’s good to see that some people that are in leadership positions are going to be on the side of peace, not just because they’re Jewish.

01:17:15:18 – 01:17:29:03
Robert Wolf
That’s the side of peace. So they get it. They care. That’s another lesson. It’s good to care. It’s important to care if you, you’re doomed if you don’t. So whatever is your own life or the life of others? It’s important.

01:17:29:05 – 01:17:44:00
Dan LeFebvre
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show to chat about all these various movies. I know we’ve mentioned your book called Not a Real Enemy The True Story of the Hungarian Jewish Man’s Fight for freedom. We’ve mentioned a few times throughout our discussion today, but there’s so many things in the book that we didn’t even get a chance to talk about.

01:17:44:00 – 01:18:01:06
Dan LeFebvre
I’m going to add a link to it in the show notes, so anyone watching or listening to this right now can pick up their own copy. As I was reading your book, it really read like a movie and I can’t wait until it is turned into one. And since all movies have teasers and trailers before I let you go, can you share a teaser of your book for everyone watching this?

01:18:01:06 – 01:18:03:06
Dan LeFebvre
Now?

01:18:03:09 – 01:18:23:14
Robert Wolf
Wow. Yeah, yeah, from your mouth to God’s ears. Because, we we’ve been trying to clear some producers. Like I mentioned earlier, it’s a long shot, but a teaser. A man who escapes four times, I can’t imagine one escape. I mean, I’ve been reading books, guys escaping, and they’re not even Jewish. They’re. They’re prisoners of war from Poland or whatever, escaping from thousands of miles away.

01:18:23:16 – 01:18:40:12
Robert Wolf
And that’s like a one big, huge escape. But for escapes, 20 miracles in this book, like you as you know it. Or the way my dad got into medical school, cloak and dagger stories, arguing with armors and soldiers. That’s a scene I’d like to see, and winning the argument, but bluffing his way through it.

01:18:40:15 – 01:19:03:19
Robert Wolf
Of course, his first and last escape. But I think all of them would need to be included. Split second timing. The luck of God. What else? I mean, the fact that my dad was spoiled, but he was also beaten as a kid. It’s another interesting, interesting tidbit. Tidbit? So many, the way the table set, the way the way that you went from, being an upper middle says to starving and how life could change on a dime.

01:19:03:21 – 01:19:24:18
Robert Wolf
So many messages. Resilience, determination, hope, integrity, and ultimately redemption. So it’s it’s loaded. It’s packed with it’s history. It’s an adventure. It’s a biography. And, trials and tribulations. My dad and family and, must read and hopefully, more and more people read it. This is all I do is my charge is fighting anti-Semitism. You help me with that.

01:19:24:18 – 01:19:48:24
Robert Wolf
10% of my, I’m on socials across the board, so please, finally, Robert J. Wolfe, MD, or Google not relented me 10% of my proceeds henceforth and even when I’m gone and my trust are going to the Holocaust Museum in DC. So not only I’m educating in my own little corner, but I’m also contributing. And people that buy the book are contributing to education through the, to the mothership, as I call it, the U.S. Holocaust Museum in DC.

01:19:48:27 – 01:20:06:02
Robert Wolf
I’ve been fortunate enough to be there twice or two to the book signings. I could do that every day, educating kids and families about what’s going on now and then, genocide, etc.. So, it’s a must read. And, I hope that you do enjoy it and reach out to me. I do podcasts and and presentations programs.

01:20:06:02 – 01:20:09:03
Robert Wolf
Please help me fight antisemitism. Can’t do it alone.

01:20:09:05 – 01:20:16:27
Dan LeFebvre
I love education is is the key. Thank you so much for everything you do for educating. Thank you for for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.

01:20:17:00 – 01:20:24:22
Robert Wolf
Pleasure. I learned a lot today to.

00:03:43:04 – 00:04:02:21
Dan LeFebvre
Before we look at some of the details of the movie, I always like to kick things off with an overall letter grade. Now, our movie today adds a little extra challenge since it’s ancient history, and that often means there’s a mix of myth and legends as well. What letter grade would you give 2004 as Troy for its historical accuracy?

00:04:02:23 – 00:04:28:04
Neil Laird
I mean, it’s a tricky one, and we’ve talked before in other podcast, and it’s easier when you’re looking at something it happens and not in the full light of history, certainly in history and the Trojan War, as we would talk about is numbers on this, though we know there’s a Troy and other things. So I would say on that level, looking at how it’s based, we say how it is, based on Homer and the story we know.

00:04:28:06 – 00:04:38:25
Neil Laird
I probably give it a C. We’d make a lot, take a lot of liberties, which we’ll get into. Again, we’re not talking about history. We’re talking about are they sticking to the source material?

00:04:38:28 – 00:05:06:19
Dan LeFebvre
Not the beginning of the movie. We see two princes of Troy named Paris and Hector visiting King Menelaus of Sparta to solidify a peace between Troy and Sparta. That piece is short lived in the movie, when parents falls for the Queen of Sparta, Helen, and brings her back to Troy with him, that understandably enrages her husband, the King of Sparta, who happens to be the brother of a Greek power hungry warlord named Agamemnon.

00:05:06:21 – 00:05:21:21
Dan LeFebvre
So that’s basically the Cassius belly that Agamemnon needs to attack Troy. Which the movie also seems to suggest is something he’s always wanted to do anyway. How much of this justification for war between the Greeks and Trojans really happened?

00:05:21:23 – 00:05:45:05
Neil Laird
Well, here’s an interesting, you know, answer to that, because some of that is based on Bronze Age life, and they get that right. Most of the stuff that you talked about didn’t happen at all in Homer. There’s this thing about the Iliad for those who haven’t read it, even though we think about the Iliad as the Trojan years of Trojan War that ends with Achilles death and and the Trojan horse and all that.

00:05:45:08 – 00:06:08:27
Neil Laird
None of that happens in the book. What happens in the book is about the last 50 days of a ten year siege. So when we open up, it’s already the 10th year. Trojans are already frustrated and tired, and they want to go back to Greece. And the Trojans are looking down and thumbing their nose. So all this stuff we talk about is really that great drama between Achilles and Hector and Agamemnon.

00:06:08:27 – 00:06:30:17
Neil Laird
Everything. So we don’t know what spurred on the war. Other than two sources, one is in the Odyssey, if you would call it a sequel, or I suppose the world’s first sequel is about Odysseus getting coming home after the war, also being lost for ten years, and then finally getting back to Ithaca and trying to get Penelope back and all of that.

00:06:30:19 – 00:06:56:29
Neil Laird
And it’s only there we get some information about how Achilles died if we talk about and also about how Paris and Helen shacked up and why. And the little he says with just a few lines is that there was some sort of of meeting in, Mycenae where Agamemnon, the, the king lived, and Paris and Hector were there, and then Helen left with Paris.

00:06:57:01 – 00:07:20:14
Neil Laird
We don’t know. Under duress. We don’t know she fell in love. Most sources suggest that, she actually went willingly. Homer is very ambivalent about it. Helen is barely a character in the play, which is interesting, even though she’s the one that launches a thousand ships. She’s rather passive, so, you know, she knows she loves, Paris. Or if she was dragged off and she’s trying to get out.

00:07:20:16 – 00:07:49:01
Neil Laird
She’s very, very much in the shadows. But conversely, how they describe Agamemnon and how they describe all the tribes of, of, of Greece is quite fascinating as a historian, as someone who loves history. That’s pretty close to how Bronze Age life was. It was very much a series of city states and the Bronze Age, you know, for those who don’t know, it was 2 or 300 years, maybe a bit longer, when bronze was obviously the key weapon.

00:07:49:04 – 00:08:15:14
Neil Laird
And that’s when you had these great empires like the Hittites, the Egyptians, the Mycenaeans, the Phoenicians. It all collapsed around 1100 BC, and Troy was part of that. So we think that the Trojan War happened probably around that around 1180 BC. Towards the end of the Bronze Age. But the way they all basically function at the time was dealing with each other, making pact with each other, and then breaking those pact and then going after each other.

00:08:15:19 – 00:08:41:20
Neil Laird
Troy was a very big city at the time. It was the gateway to the East. Mycenae was one of the biggest cities on the Greek mainland, so it’s highly likely they wanted to form some sort of pact, some sort of economic pact. And if Agamemnon’s modus operandi was to bring down, you know, the greatest empire there, then he had his he had his reasoning in Menelaus, his brother being slighted when his wife is taken.

00:08:41:25 – 00:08:54:29
Neil Laird
So although that’s all liberties taken by the film, by Wolfgang Petersen in the film and whoever wrote it, it is very true to life of what Bronze Age culture could have been. Do it.

00:08:55:01 – 00:09:15:02
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Well, it sounds like basically they’re just taking a few lines of text and then turning an entire movie into a few lines. So obviously a lot is going to be filled in and fictional, but that leads into something else I’ve always been curious about when it comes to ancient texts and such. Do we just assume that they didn’t have fiction writers back then, that everything that they wrote actually happened?

00:09:15:09 – 00:09:20:04
Dan LeFebvre
And when we think of movies today, there’s so many movies that are strictly for entertainment purposes.

00:09:20:12 – 00:09:37:00
Neil Laird
And in a way it’s more that in the Amazon, they say the first historian is Herodotus, and he doesn’t come around to the fourth century BCE. So people didn’t give a toss about the facts back of the day. If you look at mythology of mythologies, the Greek gods and all that stuff, they’re all crazy. They’re all they’re all fantastical.

00:09:37:07 – 00:10:03:01
Neil Laird
People did not pick up a book for veracity. They did pick up, and it did get a gut check on what life was like. So while there was no novel per se, Homer or Homer is called an epic poet. And he’s, you know, he’s he’s, ascribed to these two great pieces. But, of course, remember, in the Greek time, few years later, after Troy, you have, all of the Greek playwrights, the, Sophocles and Eurydice and all those kind of people.

00:10:03:01 – 00:10:20:09
Neil Laird
And those are all fiction. So people very much love to escape into the world of fiction, more so than fact historians and even then was a word yet. So I think when people sat there under a tree listening to Homer tell the Iliad, and it was almost all oral, which is why things changed. They weren’t looking for facts.

00:10:20:09 – 00:10:26:22
Neil Laird
They weren’t saying, wait a minute. Last time you told me that was in life, and it’s 1080.

00:10:26:24 – 00:10:30:21
Dan LeFebvre
And no historical letter grade for for them.

00:10:30:24 – 00:10:35:11
Neil Laird
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exact. You know, in these books, man. Tell me a day. Oh, that’s a good one.

00:10:35:13 – 00:11:01:06
Dan LeFebvre
Well, a couple other key figures in the movie on the Greek side are King Odysseus of Ethical, you mentioned. And then the greatest warrior in the world, Achilles. At Agamemnon’s bidding, Odysseus convinces Achilles and his elite fighting force called the Myrmidons to fight for Greece against the Trojans. And it’s not until later in the movie that we find out Odysseus is doing Agamemnon’s bidding, basically out of fear.

00:11:01:08 – 00:11:11:09
Dan LeFebvre
If he doesn’t, then Agamemnon is going to destroy Ithaca. Does the movie do a good job showing the way Odysseus and Achilles fit into the story?

00:11:11:12 – 00:11:32:15
Neil Laird
No they don’t. They do a pretty dodgy, representation. And again I say again, we talk about the film itself. I think one of the great strengths of the film that I enjoy was Brian Cox’s performance as Agamemnon. He’s this bullish little pug of a man going around. He’s funny, he’s enjoyable, and you know, you like him being a villain in The Iliad.

00:11:32:17 – 00:11:55:02
Neil Laird
He, Agamemnon, is very much full of himself, and he’s very much, full of bravado and makes mistakes, some key ones, which is the crux of the book. But he’s also a hero. He’s still one of the greatest heroes of the day. In fact, I remember when there’s one scene where Hector is asked, you can fight anybody. On a one on one, you know who who would you fight?

00:11:55:03 – 00:12:19:16
Neil Laird
He goes, well, I won’t fight Achilles, Odysseus or Agamemnon. They’re all better than me. So even in the Iliad, Agamemnon is killing men by the dozens. By the thousands. He is a he is definitely a formidable foe. He’s not quite the buffoon, the blustering buffoon that he is in the film. And there’s no there’s no suggestion in the book that Odysseus is his patsy.

00:12:19:16 – 00:12:40:09
Neil Laird
Now, Odysseus, you know, again, he has the great sequel comes up. And if you and I just we read the Odyssey just a few weeks ago, and reminded how many stupid mistakes Odysseus makes, he was often his own worst enemy. But in the Iliad he is not some sort of like patsy for Agamemnon. He very much wants the war to end.

00:12:40:11 – 00:13:05:04
Neil Laird
He wants to get the bloody hell home. And the only way to do that after ten years is to get to to get Achilles, who they cannot win without to rejoin the war. So he is doing Agamemnon’s bidding because he wants to go bloody hell, back to Penelope and he’s sick of it all. So that is kind of whitewashed in the film, and it makes it more like Agamemnon is sort of this big warlord that everybody else sort of like, you know, kowtowed to.

00:13:05:06 – 00:13:07:26
Neil Laird
That’s not quite the way it is in the book.

00:13:07:28 – 00:13:41:01
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Well, that might answer my next question, because that’s I was watching the movie. Something that really seemed odd to me was how clear it was that Odysseus and particular Achilles really don’t like Agamemnon. That’s why Agamemnon doesn’t go to Achilles himself, because, as the movie says, there’s only one man he’ll listen to. But all I could think of was, if Achilles is the best warrior and he and Odysseus and maybe all of these other Greek provinces conquered by Agamemnon really don’t like Agamemnon, why don’t Achilles and Odysseus lead a revolt against Agamemnon instead of fighting Troy?

00:13:41:03 – 00:13:50:01
Dan LeFebvre
Is there anything from history that helps fill in some more context around why so many who didn’t like Agamemnon would still fight for him?

00:13:50:03 – 00:14:11:18
Neil Laird
Because at the end of the day, this is the age of heroes. And when people listened to the play, it was all no, no one, you know, you know, no one’s going to go home. You know, no one is going to go with their tail between their legs and go back. So Odysseus and all the others, Nestor and all the other people, the Ajax, all these other people that are in there, none of them want to disappear.

00:14:11:18 – 00:14:37:11
Neil Laird
None of them. None of them want to end the war. They want to win the war, but they don’t want it. So despite his bluster, they’re still there. They’re on Agamemnon’s side because they want the same thing. They’re all fighting for the same thing, and they’re all heroes. Keep in mind, this is mythology. So everybody is, you know, painted in a way where they’re making great sacrifices and they’re doing it for posterity and that kind of stuff.

00:14:37:14 – 00:14:59:26
Neil Laird
So writing roughshod over the King and then going around him wouldn’t be something that a Greek warrior would do. The Greeks were together. They were a unified force, you know. That said, the key tension in the the both the I keep talking about the book, but of course, the film too is the tension between Achilles and Agamemnon, which is very personal.

00:14:59:26 – 00:15:26:21
Neil Laird
It’s all over a woman, and it’s all like two thin skinned men who can’t get on with it. Thousands die because these two people have these petty problems. So Agamemnon definitely comes across if there’s any villain in the book, like the film, and I think the film wisely chose him as a villain, it is Agamemnon because he sets the whole, slaughter of the Greeks and sets the whole tragedy in motion.

00:15:26:23 – 00:15:49:27
Neil Laird
He he’s too proud to apologize to Achilles after he slighted him. So those are all very personal things. So I think I just see us in the other just kind of want to stay clear of it. It’s going to get back to war. So I don’t think, you know, going around the king who’s who’s the leader of men is this keep call in the book would be the way to do that in a Greek play.

00:15:49:29 – 00:16:12:13
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. That makes a lot more sense because in the movie, it just kind of seems like, Achilles is in the center of it all. And whatever side he’s on, he’s going to win. So why would he bother to fight for somebody he doesn’t even like when he, you know, he can turn the tides as the greatest warrior of all to fight against Agamemnon if he wanted to, whoever, whatever side he’s on is going to win.

00:16:12:16 – 00:16:30:01
Neil Laird
And it’s true. And he is. And certainly in the play, too, they talk about how he’s a fleet footed greatest warrior of all time. He can kill a thousand with one slice. So, you know, and we buddy, you know, the, the, the whole weak army starts to die because he decides to sit the war out of. That’s how important one guy’s.

00:16:30:05 – 00:16:54:06
Neil Laird
So he certainly could take over for Agamemnon. But there’s also in terms of, you know, the one thing, the one thing the film did and it’s got a lot of controversy from, I guess, people who know the place. So well or the poem so well is that got rid of the gods, and I understand why they do. But the one thing that you get when you read Homer that is not in the films is the gods are always meddling.

00:16:54:09 – 00:17:23:01
Neil Laird
So someone is always whispering, you know, Athena is always whispering in and, and, Agamemnon’s ears do this, do that. So they’re all being spurred on by the gods and and of course, the others don’t want to piss the god off by going against their favorite. So you have that key element where all of this is the reason all of these people are the gift of men is because they have help from Mount Olympus and, you know, want to piss off Mount Olympus.

00:17:23:03 – 00:17:26:16
Neil Laird
So you just kind of ride it out.

00:17:26:18 – 00:17:46:24
Dan LeFebvre
You don’t want to piss off Mount Olympus, I like that. Well, back in the movie, the Greeks launched their attack, sending a thousand ships bearing 50,000 soldiers to Troy. The battle begins with Achilles and his Myrmidons landing on the beaches of Troy first, and he leads them in slaughtering the defending Trojan archers. Then they move on to the nearby temple to Apollo.

00:17:47:02 – 00:18:10:29
Dan LeFebvre
Their Achilles kills all the priests and desecrate the temple itself by cutting off the head of a statue and telling his men they’re free to take whatever treasure they want. Hector’s soldiers arrive, but they’re all killed as well, and there are only two Trojans who survive this initial battle. One is Hector, who Achilles lets go free because he says it’s too early in the day for killing Princess.

00:18:11:02 – 00:18:20:06
Dan LeFebvre
And the other is Hector’s cousin Perseus, which Achilles takes as a captive. Is that how the Battle of Troy really began?

00:18:20:08 – 00:18:37:11
Neil Laird
None of that. None of that happened. In fact, I think it’s one of the weakest scenes in the film. I can only imagine they put that in there to show Brad Pitt, you know, being strong willed to get a battle scene early on to show he almost a Troy, all muscled up, annoyed up. And he’s taken charge. Okay.

00:18:37:16 – 00:19:01:09
Neil Laird
You know, remind you again, the Iliad opens in year ten. So they’re already been entrenched in the muddy, you know, camps for ten years. But even then, it’s a very curious and I think a very, very weak sequence because a historically, it’s it’s a mess. Those are, those are Greeks, the Egyptian statues in the back there, basing them more on Egyptian myths rather than anything Greeks.

00:19:01:09 – 00:19:23:21
Neil Laird
And they’re, they’re borrowing from Abydos and, and Abu Simbel and a lot of Egyptian and messing it up with some of the Syrian stuff. They’re making it up by making it look a little Greek, but it’s very much an Egyptian motif, which is totally wrong there. And then also the whole thing just seems so crude for Achilles to come in and start killing the gods and killing the priest and everything.

00:19:23:23 – 00:19:44:02
Neil Laird
It feels like it was done by committee to show an action sequence early in the film, and it does nothing to advance the plot. None of that is is in the book. Achilles and Hector don’t meet until they’re one on one. You know, out front there’s there’s a scene that there’s no sense of that. So no. So actually none of that is accurate.

00:19:44:04 – 00:20:02:21
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Well, maybe it’s like you’re saying doing an action sequence right up front, for entertainment purposes. But also they just mentioned Achilles being the greatest warrior. And so they have to show him being the greatest warrior. And they also point out that in the movie, at least, they point out that clearing the beaches is this great feat.

00:20:02:21 – 00:20:05:16
Dan LeFebvre
And Achilles is basically able to do that by himself.

00:20:05:19 – 00:20:25:04
Neil Laird
That’s true. It’s a good point because you got to show if he is the greatest warrior. We got to see why early on we can’t just talk about it. But of course, all he kills is a bunch of priests in one temple. It’s not exactly the most impressive, win of all time. That’s the whole thing is is a very curious sequence that just rang hollow to me.

00:20:25:06 – 00:20:45:18
Dan LeFebvre
That’s a very, very good point. Well, after that vicious start to the battle on the beaches, Paris offers to end the war in the movie before it goes any further, he wants to fight King Menelaus of Sparta in this one on one battle for Helen. And in this fight, Menelaus gets the advantage of Paris, who then turns to his brother Hector for help.

00:20:45:20 – 00:21:04:27
Dan LeFebvre
Menelaus is about to kill Paris when Hector ends up killing Menelaus, and this just enrages Agamemnon and the Greeks, who then launch a full scale attack on Troy. But according to the movie, they’re driven back and forced to retire to their camp on the beaches. Did this battle between Paris and Menelaus actually happen?

00:21:04:29 – 00:21:30:25
Neil Laird
It did, but not. It doesn’t end the way it does in the film. And another very curious change they make. And again, I think because the filmmaker is just another doing a one off, they’re not they’re not talking about Gregory cos they’re going to be around forever. They’re making one. They’re done. So the beginning starts the way it does in the book where, where Paris, and Menelaos fight.

00:21:30:27 – 00:21:55:08
Neil Laird
And what’s interesting in the book is it’s also makes Paris out to be sort of like the dweeb he is, because he’s very much mismatched by Menelaos. And, what happens there is Menelaos is about to kill him, and I forget which goddess it is, comes and saves them and cocoons them so he doesn’t die. He doesn’t call underneath his brother’s, legs.

00:21:55:08 – 00:22:16:00
Neil Laird
But he’s he is about to be killed by Menelaos, and he survives. That’s how it ends. Menelaos does not die. In fact, Menelaos goes on and he goes back, and he’s a big character in the Odyssey. He goes back to his, his family and his wife and his Greek kingdom, and he has Helen in his arms. Helen goes back with them.

00:22:16:06 – 00:22:38:25
Neil Laird
So when the Odyssey, when Odysseus popped by to say hello, he’s there with Helen and she’s like, you know, mixing up drinks for them is kind of like just popping by. Menelaos does not die. There’s a very curious thing that they did to kill him off. And I guess it is because the characters to it, to a film audience in 2004 don’t have quite the resonance they do to a Greek scholar or something.

00:22:38:25 – 00:22:57:17
Neil Laird
So it’s like a Greek people and they make him very much. He is kind of a crass character in Homer too, so they they kind of get that right where he’s not exactly. He’s he’s not like his brother. He’s a brute. And while he’s strong, he’s not bright at all. He’s definitely a hothead, if you don’t mind. Is probably seeing him die.

00:22:57:23 – 00:23:05:17
Neil Laird
He’s a good person to kill off, but, he is not killed off the way he is. He is, in the book by Hector.

00:23:05:20 – 00:23:11:14
Dan LeFebvre
Okay, okay. It just seems a tad bit different than what we see in the movie.

00:23:11:16 – 00:23:13:22
Neil Laird
But.

00:23:13:24 – 00:23:38:26
Dan LeFebvre
According to the movie, a relationship starts to form between Achilles and the Trojan priestess Perseus. That’s how they pronounce it in the movie that he captured Achilles seems tired of fighting for Agamemnon, so he orders his men to stay while Agamemnon goes to battle. But then, while Achilles is in his tent with Perseus, Achilles belove cousin Patrick List wears Achilles armor and leads the Myrmidons into battle.

00:23:38:27 – 00:23:57:17
Dan LeFebvre
They think it’s Achilles that they’re following, and then when these soldiers fight their way to Hector, Hector ends up killing the man they all think is Achilles until taking off his helmet, and it’s revealed that it’s Patrick was. So that’s how the movie shows Achilles ending up recommitting to the fight against the Trojans to avenge his cousin’s death.

00:23:57:19 – 00:24:00:08
Dan LeFebvre
How much of that is based on real history?

00:24:00:10 – 00:24:17:14
Neil Laird
That is a very, very key point in the book, and that’s very close to what happens. The emotional core of the book is just that. It is it is, and and they say brass, brass. This is different ways of saying it. But essentially the whole plot of the Iliad in nutshell is in the 10th year of the war.

00:24:17:21 – 00:24:39:11
Neil Laird
They’re sitting around, they’re trying to bring down Troy. And one way to do that is to do a bunch of raids and attack the villages and fill up the, the gates with, refugees and then take a bunch of war brides and then, you know, have their way with them. Brass actually comes in that she’s not related in any way to anyone inside the, Troy that is, Achilles.

00:24:39:13 – 00:25:02:25
Neil Laird
War booty from from a recent raid that happens off camera. And, at the same time, Agamemnon gets his own. I forget her name. What is it? Christmas? Or I forgot to say it. And, her father come by and and he’s he’s a priest of Apollo and says, give her back. And he says, as we joke, and I’m going to kill you if you don’t leave right now, I need I need my daughter back.

00:25:02:25 – 00:25:32:24
Neil Laird
I will give you everything I own. Just give me my daughter back. So she’s the daughter of a priestess, not a priestess herself. Agamemnon. And his bluster sends him out, says, I will kill you if you don’t leave now. And as he leaves, he curses them and says, you will regret this. And they do so as soon as the priest leaves, he he calls out to Apollo, who sends a plague down and wipes out half of the Trojans or half of the Greeks, and kills them until his daughters return.

00:25:32:27 – 00:25:56:06
Neil Laird
Agamemnon refuses for a while and then eventually says, oh, you know what? I’ll give her back. I’ll take I’ll take Achilles war bride instead. So he takes braces, brass as as his, as his concubine instead. And that pisses Achilles off so much. He sits out the war, he stops and that’s when things go to shit. So basically, that is all of the unity is really about these.

00:25:56:12 – 00:26:29:10
Neil Laird
These two men and these two women and and these women are pretty powerless. Unfortunately, in the book. But because his, his war bride or his war booty with her car has been taken away, Achilles refuses to fight and they start to suffer a they come and they beg him and they beg him. And it’s only when Patrick class who and in my book and in many other, in many other, historians believe it was, was, Achilles real lover.

00:26:29:12 – 00:26:49:29
Neil Laird
He’s his fucking cousin, but also his same sex lover and they say, well, we have to get them out there if you will not fight. How can we get the Greeks to go out there and fight as if you are? They need to believe you’re with them. So he and Patrick Kless form a, you know, major decision.

00:26:49:29 – 00:27:13:15
Neil Laird
You go out there, you wear my armor, and they think it’s me and they will win. And I still won’t fight because he’s that. He’s because he’s a petulant child, too. Unfortunately, Patrick isn’t as strong as them, and he goes on and gets slaughtered by Hector. So all of that happens. And then then, then when Achilles finds out that his beloved has been killed by Hector, he rejoins the war effort.

00:27:13:15 – 00:27:16:05
Neil Laird
And then Troy falls.

00:27:16:07 – 00:27:22:26
Dan LeFebvre
So many people killed just because of these yes egos.

00:27:22:28 – 00:27:43:04
Neil Laird
It all comes down. These two, these two arrogant men who just refuse to think about anybody but themselves. First, Agamemnon let thousands die because of a plague. Because he won’t give up some random chemical. You got ten women in his tent, and then Achilles watches all his brethren die because they took away this woman who he barely has any relationship with.

00:27:43:06 – 00:28:00:21
Neil Laird
If they’re in love, Homer doesn’t suggest it as much more love, even in Homer between him and Patrick, less than it is in him and her. So it’s a very it’s a very it’s a very strange thing that he just sits out the war and lets thousands and thousands of people he grew up with die because of one woman.

00:28:00:24 – 00:28:24:24
Dan LeFebvre
It almost sounds similar to what we were talking about before, with Agamemnon using the slide against Menelaus as an excuse to do something he already wanted to do attacking Troy. It sounds like maybe Achilles might be doing a similar thing, and using just this minor slight against a woman that maybe he didn’t even really care that much about to do something he didn’t want to do anyway, which is set out to fight.

00:28:24:24 – 00:28:29:11
Dan LeFebvre
Or, you know, he didn’t want to fight, so he’s just going to do that anyway.

00:28:29:13 – 00:28:50:19
Neil Laird
Well, there was there’s one other. And again, the Greek, the Greek writers wouldn’t say this because I think the age of the other hero wouldn’t allow it. But some other people have interpreted his sitting out the war memory as a very early scene in the film where Julie Christie as as his mom, comes and says, if you go to Troy, you will die.

00:28:50:21 – 00:29:14:28
Neil Laird
It is, you go to try, you will live forever, but you will die. Or you can not go to Troy. You will be anonymous and you will have a full life. So? So some have speculated maybe when the reason he sits it out as he realizes, why do I want to die? I’d rather anonymity and live like a human being, then be a hero and then die at age 18 or whatever the hell he is.

00:29:15:00 – 00:29:51:08
Neil Laird
You know that that is not in Homer, but certainly there is. The book is shot through with this idea of everyone becoming immortal. So just by him being there, he will die just by him partaking, because everything is written by the gods. So you could argue that maybe one of the reasons he did it, if you’re if you’re adding some elements and maybe you human but necessary in the Homer original is that he’s sitting it out again because he’s decided that, you know, living forever isn’t worth it.

00:29:51:09 – 00:30:21:10
Neil Laird
There’s a wonderful scene in the Odyssey where, Odysseus is looking. Has he go to Hades? I forget the reason why he goes to Hades, looking for his way home or something. And he meets all the people who died after the war, including Agamemnon and, Achilles. And Achilles says quite famously, I’d rather be a beggar to some man up above than the king of the gods down below.

00:30:21:12 – 00:30:45:01
Neil Laird
And it’s. And then that basically said he’s regretting dying. So when he’s in Hades, when you basically you live forever, but you’re no longer human. He regrets that he would rather be up above being a nobody than down below and being a hero forever. So that is something is very much a theme throughout all of Homer. This idea of destiny, this idea of fate, fate is really what it is.

00:30:45:03 – 00:30:58:02
Neil Laird
And he is fated to die. And if he had one chance to do what it would have been then by sitting at the war. It isn’t until his lover is taken from him that he realizes he has to see his fate through.

00:30:58:05 – 00:31:21:10
Dan LeFebvre
I could see that too. You mentioned this scene in the movie with his mother where he’s, you know, talking about living in immortality. But, you know, in that moment before the fighting actually begins, especially being that young, you might think, oh, this is such a great thing, you know, living in immortality. And then once the fighting begins, you might have a change of heart.

00:31:21:12 – 00:31:26:03
Neil Laird
And keep in mind for what, at the end of the day, they’re all fighting so one guy can get his wife back.

00:31:26:08 – 00:31:30:21
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. And yeah, not even fighting for yourself. You’re fighting for somebody else? Yeah.

00:31:30:24 – 00:31:52:10
Neil Laird
So there’s a bunch of boorish, brutish men that really should just get over it, you know, that he’ll go over and spend ten years and die. And certainly there’s a lot of sequences in the end, home or where people are already sick and they want to go home, and it’s very unpleasant. They’re living in rain among rats and and pestilence, and they’re living in the boats and tents along the shore.

00:31:52:17 – 00:32:06:24
Neil Laird
And, you know, it’s is an ugly existence. They’re away from home. They’re all dreaming about their wives and their families. Most of them don’t make it. So certainly it’s not a rosy picture, what life is like and what war is like in the Bronze Age.

00:32:06:27 – 00:32:31:13
Dan LeFebvre
Well, if we can go back to the movie as soon as Achilles finds out his cousin has been killed, he races to the Trojan city walls and yells for Hector to face him in one on one combat. Hector complies and goes out to face Achilles, and it’s a valiant fight between two great warriors. But Achilles is the better warrior, so he kills Hector and then drags Hector’s body from his chariot in front of the city walls for all the Trojans to watch.

00:32:31:15 – 00:32:37:25
Dan LeFebvre
Do we know if this fight between two legendary warriors happened? The way we see it in the movie.

00:32:37:27 – 00:33:05:12
Neil Laird
It happens that way in the book. They got that right and you call right or wrong again, it’s not. They have to be gospel when it comes to interpreting a 3000 year old. You take liberties that they want, I suppose much, you know, but that is very much what happens. There’s a very strong sequence in the chapter in the book, and by that point it’s very interesting because what what Homer does is he has created sympathies on both sides.

00:33:05:19 – 00:33:25:02
Neil Laird
Hector is a man of honor. And they kind of they kind of do that in the film. They make they make, Paris much more of a dweeb, which maybe he is. But certainly Hector, in both the film and in the poem, is very much the strongest man in Troy, and he is obviously meant to take over from King Prime, his father.

00:33:25:09 – 00:33:46:12
Neil Laird
So his loss would be a great thing. So it is a it is not an evenly match because Achilles is Achilles, but Hector is a very strong and formidable opponent, and he has a lot of people on his side who respect that. So, you know, it is probably the one of the most powerful scenes in the play, or an example in the, the poem.

00:33:46:12 – 00:33:50:25
Neil Laird
Because because you have sympathies on both sides. You really care about the characters.

00:33:50:28 – 00:34:08:05
Dan LeFebvre
Well, that leads you to another question I want to ask about at this point in the movie, because at this point, we’ve seen a few one on one fights, right? And the movie starts with Agamemnon calling on Achilles to fight the Thessalonians champion a guy named boy Grace. Then later, there’s that one and one fight between Paris and Menelaus that we already talked about.

00:34:08:11 – 00:34:17:21
Dan LeFebvre
And now there’s this one on one fight between Achilles and Hector. Historically speaking, were these one on one fights that we see sprinkled throughout the movie? What they common.

00:34:17:23 – 00:34:40:19
Neil Laird
Historically know was certainly in ancient literature. They’re a trait. They were much a trope, like any book you read today. Like any rom romantic comedy, whatever has their own tropes, an ancient ancient story had their troubles and one on one because it’s mano a mano. The first one in the film doesn’t happen at all. Where, Achilles fights whoever that character is, I think it’s only fictional.

00:34:40:22 – 00:35:01:11
Neil Laird
And then you think about it, probably the most famous 1 or 1 fight and all literature, certainly if you read your Bible growing up is David and Goliath. So you have that one that’s already then that’s probably what that was based on. They probably would steal it from that. But then you also have, even in the very obscure Egyptian text called The Tale of Sin, you’re about a guy who leaves Egypt and tries to come back to die.

00:35:01:18 – 00:35:26:18
Neil Laird
He has a one on one battle with an Egyptian, warrior to get in Romulus in the in the Roman legend fights, this warrior name Akron to to bring supremacy, to bring the tribes of Rome together is a trope. And it’s all about kind of like it shows the prowess of one man up against the best and winning.

00:35:26:20 – 00:35:41:27
Neil Laird
So certainly. And you have two of them in the Iliad. And the first one, of course, goes against Hector, and he kind of becomes a, a slobbering dweeb. But the other one is a very emotional crux of the entire, story arc, where you take the two biggest characters and bring them together.

00:35:42:00 – 00:36:08:11
Dan LeFebvre
I could see that, and we even see that in movies, too. If you think about it, you know, you think of these movies with the huge epic battles of thousands and thousands on either side. It’s really hard to honestly care about these huge, just numbers of people on either side. And so you focus in on just a few people on either side, whether it’s ensemble or, you know, composite characters or just these one on ones.

00:36:08:12 – 00:36:13:10
Dan LeFebvre
And so I could see if that’s the case in movies, that would be the same thing in writing two.

00:36:13:13 – 00:36:30:01
Neil Laird
You read The Iliad and, and I recommend everybody. Sure. Because there’s some beautiful stuff in there and it can be very dramatic. There’s a slog to where they go on and on and talk about somebody killing somebody, killing somebody from a small town in eastern Turkey. You don’t know who they are. And it’s boring because yet no emotional connection with them.

00:36:30:03 – 00:36:53:14
Neil Laird
Like any Marvel movie, it’s when the hero fights the villain is that when you think of the classic end of good, the bad and the ugly, where the good, the bad and the ugly have a Mexican standoff and a bunch of close ups and all their eyeballs back and forth. That’s what you want at the end. You want all the noise to go away, and you would have come down on the most primal, which is it’s mano a mano fight to the finish.

00:36:53:17 – 00:37:03:04
Neil Laird
Look me in the eye. And that’s certainly something that goes all the way back to again, David and Goliath and these ancient texts that still resonate today.

00:37:03:07 – 00:37:26:10
Dan LeFebvre
Well, back in the movies storyline, after Hector is killed, the Trojan king Priam sneaks into the Greek camp to ask Achilles for Hector’s body. They remain enemies. The movie makes it clear, but Achilles seems to have respect for both Hector and Priam, so he grants the request. He turns over the body and offers a 12 day peace because, according to the movie, the Funeral Games lasts for 12 days.

00:37:26:10 – 00:37:38:15
Dan LeFebvre
That’s both an Achilles country as well as Priam’s, and so there’s a peace for 12 days. Was there really a 12 day piece during the Trojan War for the funeral of Hector, like we see in the movie?

00:37:38:17 – 00:37:57:17
Neil Laird
What’s interesting is that’s also how the book ends. The book ends right there. That is the last scene of the Iliad, and I think it’s probably the best scene of the movie, too. It helps the a Peter O’Toole in there who can act up a storm. Right. And everybody else have these veterans in there that just by walking in the room, you’re interested in them because they have such presence.

00:37:57:19 – 00:38:03:26
Neil Laird
You know, I wish there was a more prime and maybe less of of, who’s the cipher of the played pairs.

00:38:03:28 – 00:38:08:07
Dan LeFebvre
Orlando Bloom, Legolas from Lord of the rings. Yeah.

00:38:08:10 – 00:38:26:23
Neil Laird
Let’s move forward more. O’Toole would have been my review. That’s very much how it ends. And is also, it finally shows Achilles breaking down because he’s brooding and angry. The entire he can’t get over Patrick Bliss’s death. So, you know, find. And then that’s why he kills Hector. But this man comes to him and I think it’s the best line in the film.

00:38:26:23 – 00:38:45:27
Neil Laird
I forget how it is. It’s kind of I’m paraphrasing again, but it’s something like, Achilles says, if I do this for you, you’re still my enemy tomorrow. And O’Toole’s character, Prime says, you’re still my enemy tonight, but we can still be human or something like that. It’s what so wonderful scene. And I wish there was more of that emotion in the film.

00:38:45:27 – 00:39:09:16
Neil Laird
I think that reminds you of the Achilles. Could have been a real character, as opposed to this sort of pin up, you know, greased up muscle boy. So I think that that suggests to what the film could have been. But yes, there’s very much how the book ends. And in terms of the 12 days, whether that was a whether that was, typical in Bronze Age culture, I don’t know, but that is what they say in the Iliad.

00:39:09:16 – 00:39:26:22
Neil Laird
It is 12 days. And the book ends with Prime getting up, thanking him, taking his boy’s body. And then there’s a paragraph after. Then what? You you hear them burning, you watch them burning Hector’s body and people watching it. And that’s how the book ends.

00:39:26:24 – 00:39:54:27
Dan LeFebvre
Oh, okay. Well, the movie keeps going, so we’ll keep going to, It’s not too much of a surprise at this point in the movie that Agamemnon is just furious when he finds out that Achilles agreed to a 12 day piece without his approval. But then again, the movie also points out that Troy was built to withstand a ten year siege, so it’s not like they can do a lot to get past the city walls anyway, at that point is the movie’s claim of Troy’s city walls being built to withstand a ten year siege.

00:39:54:27 – 00:39:56:27
Dan LeFebvre
Historically accurate.

00:39:57:00 – 00:40:15:11
Neil Laird
I mean, ten years seems outrageous for any kind of war, certainly any war that took place back then. Again, it’s kind of like, you know, 40 days and 40 nights and all these kind of cliches. You Alexander’s 40 thieves. There are some numbers that just fit. And ten year, it’d be a nice long chunk of time where people get a bit miffed.

00:40:15:13 – 00:40:43:19
Neil Laird
So there was no true. I mean, certainly some cities can withstand with withstand sieges forever. Others will fall straight away depending on duplicity or or a crack in the in the wall. So it’s hard to know what the Troy, prime was like. Now, you know, they have found, you know, as we were talking earlier, Troy, we do know Troy exists because, archeology just named Schliemann, found in the 1880s, is some turkey, and you can go there.

00:40:43:19 – 00:41:03:09
Neil Laird
Today is a very disappointing site because it’s all denuded and ripped apart. There’s nothing except for really cheesy, wooden horse in the car park, which is 1970s y, like some Turkish filmmaker making a TV movie. It’s even got a little window. It looks like something out laugh. You know, it’s so cheesy. Got big knobs on it, the stairs going up.

00:41:03:11 – 00:41:28:02
Neil Laird
It is not is not the authentic thing. But Troy stood for a thousand years at some point of Troy up 8000 years now. What level was the Trojan War at? Was probably somewhere in the lower third, maybe like the fourth or fifth layer. They have different strata and I forget right now which one it is. So Troy itself lasted a very long time and Troy was rebuilt after, prime time.

00:41:28:05 – 00:41:51:26
Neil Laird
So it’s, it’s we don’t know how strong it was then. There’s there’s actually Roman ruins there too. So it’s still around in Roman times, so to say that it can withstand a siege X years long, I think is impossible to say. And of course, they saw that. Anyways, with the Trojan horse through duplicity, by getting those doors open, which is one of the most, it’s hard to believe anybody falling for that ever happened in ancient times.

00:41:51:26 – 00:42:01:27
Neil Laird
It’s like, oh, he’s a enormous, enormous wooden horse outside my door. Let’s bring it inside the gates that we’d kept closed for a decade.

00:42:01:29 – 00:42:20:17
Dan LeFebvre
I mean, we still have people filing for Trojan horses today with computer viruses. But that leads right into my next question. Because if we head back to the movie, we’re at the point where we see perhaps the most famous part of the war, the Trojan Horse. The movie shows this idea coming to Odysseus as he’s watching one of his soldiers carve a wooden horse for his son back home.

00:42:20:23 – 00:42:40:20
Dan LeFebvre
And then after the 12 day funeral for Hector, the Trojans come out and they find the Greeks are no longer on the beaches. Instead, they just find some dead bodies with what they think is the plague. That’s something that the Trojan priest there says is retribution from Apollo for the way the Greeks desecrated the temple, alluding to the attack on the beach that Achilles did.

00:42:40:20 – 00:43:00:09
Dan LeFebvre
We talked about earlier when they first landed, when the Greeks first landed. And then they also find this huge wooden horse which they think was built by the Greeks as an offering for Poseidon to grant the Greeks a safe return home. That same priest convinces King Priam to take the horse to their own temple of Poseidon, and that brings the horse within the city walls.

00:43:00:09 – 00:43:14:19
Dan LeFebvre
And then that night, Odysseus, Achilles, and maybe a dozen or so Greeks sneak out of the horse, kill the sleeping guards, and open the city gates for the waiting Greek army. Does the movie accurately portray what we know of the Trojan horse now?

00:43:14:19 – 00:43:35:13
Neil Laird
I mean, again, we don’t even know if the Trojan War happened. And and so you’re asking, asking my reporting on a thesis that’s already flawed. It’s hard to imagine a Trojan War happening, isn’t it? Something torn from met. And it was quite interesting. Otho is definitely the most famous thing from the Trojan War. That and maybe the heel.

00:43:35:15 – 00:44:03:08
Neil Laird
It only gets about 3 or 4 lines. Not in the Iliad, but in the Odyssey, which is asking Odysseus and one of his islands where he’s stuck. How did you get away? And he chose them over like a, like a lamb or whatever. What happened? It’s like a paragraph long. It is a cliff note. So it’s very interesting that, it becomes the most famous name for it because it’s so dramatic and so cinematic and it’s it’s a great ending.

00:44:03:08 – 00:44:22:08
Neil Laird
It’s a great ending on no matter how ridiculous it is. And as you described it, is as how it’s described in the Odyssey. That pretty much is how they do it. I don’t know if it’s a plague. They say they leave, but they wake up and the Greeks all hide behind a, a, promontory out in the bay.

00:44:22:08 – 00:44:39:25
Neil Laird
All the ships, and they act like they’ve left. And they left. They’ve left this, wooden horse behind. Not for the Greek for for Apollo to say, you know, sorry. We’ve been mucking up the earth and mucking about with things. And when we’re out of here and Prime thinks that it’s for them, and he takes it in and they sneak out.

00:44:39:27 – 00:45:06:11
Neil Laird
So yes, that happens as described, in the Odyssey. Did it happen in real life? I think I could hazard or no. We know we don’t know any of these people existed. You know, Neeleman also claimed he found a, the city of Agamemnon. He calls it Agamemnon’s mask in central, Greece. My senior. But we don’t know if it’s Agamemnon.

00:45:06:11 – 00:45:19:16
Neil Laird
He very much wanted to be Agamemnon. These are mythological characters that might have been based on fact. But they were heroes. They were. They were, you know, touched by gods. So they could be as real as Apollo and Athena and all the others.

00:45:19:18 – 00:45:35:00
Dan LeFebvre
Sounds a lot like to, you know, characters like King Arthur and Robin Hood. You know, these stories that there might be fragments of truth here and there, but they’re just built upon for thousands of years that it’s really hard to separate fact from fiction, or how much of it is actually fact at all.

00:45:35:03 – 00:45:54:13
Neil Laird
It could have been an amalgamation of several different people, and they could have been totally invented again, the Trojan War. So, I mean, if you look at the ruins of Troy, it was destroyed many times and burnt, and they think they found the or when Troy of Priam’s Priam’s Troy collapsed. But we don’t know how or why and all those kind of things.

00:45:54:13 – 00:46:04:15
Neil Laird
So it’s impossible to say it happened because of a ten year war of the Greeks. Or it was just spurred by because someone had a space heater out overnight.

00:46:04:17 – 00:46:11:05
Dan LeFebvre
It was the Trojan horse you’re talking about with the window. You know, the sun going through the glass and everything, causing the fire to ignite.

00:46:11:07 – 00:46:14:18
Neil Laird
Anything could have,

00:46:14:21 – 00:46:37:06
Dan LeFebvre
Well, at the very end of the movie, we see the Greek soldiers within the city walls. And once they’re inside, it’s all over for Troy. The city is burning. When Achilles searches for Perseus, she ends up killing Agamemnon when he tries to take her captive. But then Achilles kills the Greek guards to rescue her. And then Paris shows up and he hits Achilles in his heel with an arrow.

00:46:37:08 – 00:46:57:02
Dan LeFebvre
Achilles gets up and Paris ends up hitting Achilles with four more arrows in the chest, but Achilles isn’t quite dead yet. He manages to pull the arrows out of himself, and then Paris and Perseus follow the path that Hector, his wife in drama, shows them out of the city into the island deeper in the island where the Greeks won’t follow.

00:46:57:04 – 00:47:12:09
Dan LeFebvre
And then once they leave, we see a bunch of Greek soldiers showing up to find Achilles die, and the only arrow left because he pulled the others out of his chest. The only one left is the one stuck in his heel. How much of the way the movie ends holds up to historical scrutiny?

00:47:12:16 – 00:47:38:18
Neil Laird
None of that happens except for Paris does kill Achilles with an arrow to the. And I think it is off. It is off camera as well, or off the page. And again, this is from the Odyssey, not from the Iliad, I think. I think maybe when he does, I think when Odysseus goes to Hades and he’s talking to his dead friends, that’s when Achilles tells them, oh, I was I was duped by that little snot, and he killed me.

00:47:38:21 – 00:47:52:08
Neil Laird
But everything else it was didn’t happen. And then, particularly Agamemnon does not die there. Agamemnon is killed, I think, by brass who who kills him in the film.

00:47:52:10 – 00:48:02:16
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, yeah. It’s Perseus. Yeah. Because Agamemnon was going to take her as his own prize. And then she had, like a dagger head, and she ends up pulling it out and stabbing him. Yeah.

00:48:02:19 – 00:48:24:04
Neil Laird
Yeah. And that when he lives and he goes back to, Mycenae. And of course, it’s a very famous great play about that, where he’s killed by his wife and her lover. She’s with someone else for the last ten years. So when he comes back, he’s coldness tub, I believe, by his own wife and. And his wife’s new lover.

00:48:24:04 – 00:48:28:27
Neil Laird
So he goes all the way back to his homeland, only to die that ignoble death.

00:48:28:29 – 00:48:44:28
Dan LeFebvre
I guess I shouldn’t laugh at somebody dying, but, you know, we think of this guy is responsible for how many thousands of deaths because of his own ego. And just the way all the deaths caused. And then he goes back and dies that way, kind of gets what’s coming to you.

00:48:45:00 – 00:49:04:07
Neil Laird
And it is like it happened that way. APT. We’re just kind of like, you know, slipping on a banana. Pause. You’ve taken on the whole world. But all those characters go on to have sort of sequels. Again, as I mentioned, a lot of them show up in The Odyssey, but but other plays are mentioned about some of the survivors after the fact.

00:49:04:07 – 00:49:26:02
Neil Laird
Now Helen disappears from history. Perseus disappears from this. You all the women, women tend to do that. Achilles is dead. Except for his cameo in Hades. Odysseus goes back and becomes a hero, but Priam and even now Prime dies. We assume Priam dies. I think in the book he’s killed by Agamemnon. Doesn’t happen in the book.

00:49:26:09 – 00:49:29:04
Neil Laird
So we can only imagine if a city falls. So does the King.

00:49:29:06 – 00:49:34:29
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, he kind of got the idea of, you know, the captain going down with the ship was the impression I got from the film.

00:49:35:02 – 00:50:02:26
Neil Laird
And the reasoning that you have on. There’s people leaving at the end sneaking out. Paris wasn’t among them. We don’t know if he left, but there was a very famous, Roman play by Virgil called The Animate. And that is basically trying to connect themselves to the Greeks and saying they are the descendants of the famous Greeks. But one could be the one comes to us and starts the Romans, you know, so a hero from Troy.

00:50:03:01 – 00:50:18:13
Neil Laird
So basically when them leaving, that’s pretty much how the army begins. It begins. It begins with them, with with them leaving and picking up the story from the fall of Troy. So that’s sort of setting up for if there was a sequel would have been that the Roman version of what happens next?

00:50:18:16 – 00:50:26:06
Dan LeFebvre
Okay, maybe that’s where King Arthur comes into it, because I know there’s, thought that he might have actually been a Roman centurion. Then led to the the myths that we know now.

00:50:26:08 – 00:50:31:09
Neil Laird
Yeah. If anybody wants to be Roman because they were the top dog for so long.

00:50:31:11 – 00:50:47:20
Dan LeFebvre
Well, the movie does talk about it being like 30, 200 years ago. And you talked a little bit here and there about the Trojan ruins and then talked about some other ruins that obviously you’ve been to as well. Do you think the movie does a good job transporting us back in time 30, 200 years?

00:50:47:22 – 00:51:10:24
Neil Laird
You know, it’s funny, because I’m writing a book about Troy. I talked to some archeologist who’ve dug there, and they put me on to a book. I think it was by Michael Woods, who is an archeologist. An old book back in the 80s. Did a bunch of BBC docs you might have seen back in the day, British Guy, and they said, we all, kind of look at him as being the perfect example.

00:51:11:00 – 00:51:32:02
Neil Laird
He created mock ups of what Troy might have looked like, and the filmmakers must have got that same book because it looked a lot like that. So I think the sets are quite nice, I think, except for mixing up the gods. As I mentioned the first scene, and anytime you see ancient history, those of us who were snobs with that and I’m no archeologist story and I’m a filmmaker and a novelist, do spend a lot of time with those people.

00:51:32:05 – 00:51:50:00
Neil Laird
You see a bit of a Hittite, a bit of Egyptian, a bit of a Phoenician, whatever is cool looking, winged, all the Syrian winged bulls, you know, next, next up ball and all this stuff it all makes are exotically ancient. But I thought in terms of how the walls looked and how the city looked, it captured it quite a nicely.

00:51:50:00 – 00:51:54:21
Neil Laird
It transported me. I wasn’t sort of like sniffing my nose at it.

00:51:54:23 – 00:51:57:10
Dan LeFebvre
It’s whatever looks good on camera, right?

00:51:57:12 – 00:52:03:20
Neil Laird
Yeah, it has epic. It has to look epic. And I think they did that. Yeah.

00:52:03:22 – 00:52:21:04
Dan LeFebvre
Well, you mentioned you’re writing a book and this is just been a lot of fun to dig into the myths, legends and history behind Troy. Now, before I let you go, I think anyone who is a fan of historical stories that we talked about today would love to read your historical novels. So can you share a little bit more about those?

00:52:21:09 – 00:52:29:24
Dan LeFebvre
For anyone watching the video version of this, I am holding up Prime Time Pompeii. But you also have prime time travelers. And could there be a prime time Troy on the way?

00:52:30:00 – 00:52:33:14
Neil Laird
Maybe.

00:52:33:17 – 00:52:59:06
Neil Laird
Yeah, it’s a series and it’s not hard. You know, I have a TV producer by trade. I’ve been to the last 30 years making historical documentaries for BBC, National Geographic right now, working for the History Channel. So I work for all of them. And my bailiwick has always been history archeology. And I’ve been to some 70 countries and, you know, after traveling and all, doing all these footnoted scripts, that it were all the, all the facts had to be exact, like we’re talking about right now.

00:52:59:09 – 00:53:14:26
Neil Laird
I’m doing exactly the same thing the filmmakers are trying to do, and I’m making shit up. And I wanted to have some fun with what I know. So Prime Time Travelers is about a TV crew, kind of, you know, fairly cheesy, ancient aliens, like TV crew who find order to the past and it allows them to tour the ancient past.

00:53:14:26 – 00:53:33:22
Neil Laird
Hopefully to win an Emmy, and they get sucked into the great events of ancient times. The first book is them going back to ancient Egypt during the times of Ramses the Great, and they have to find a mummy in the Duat, which is the 12 hours of hell, before the sun rises. So I get all the mythology of Egypt.

00:53:33:22 – 00:53:57:01
Neil Laird
I was able to bring in there and recreate ancient Egypt in that the New Kingdom under Ramses the second book, they time travel back to Pompeii and the eve of Pompeii. With that, with a snooty, TV host, you know, along with that, you just can’t wait to die. And I won’t do it anyway. Yeah, well, let say let’s just say, you know, things happen.

00:53:57:03 – 00:54:19:21
Neil Laird
And when I mean, in the third book, which I’m writing right now, prime time Troy, they go back to ancient Troy, with the invite of Achilles, and they set up there is exactly what I’m talking about before Achilles realizes, oh, you people can change history. You can make documentaries, make people live for forever without being in a without being in an epic poem.

00:54:19:28 – 00:54:26:13
Neil Laird
I don’t want to die. And I will give you a ringside seat to Troy if you figure out how to let me live.

00:54:26:15 – 00:54:34:06
Dan LeFebvre
Okay? And that’s like living forever. Like, literally living forever or like living forever throughout legend.

00:54:34:08 – 00:54:50:25
Neil Laird
So he wants. He wants it. He wants to become a human being used to go for Patrick and live a life of happy the Patrick list. So. But but he’s also, you know, a hero of the book and he basically wants them see if you if anyone can change the past the time travel TV producers can because you’ve done it twice now so that the hope and see it.

00:54:50:25 – 00:55:14:14
Neil Laird
Of course he’s got a few tricks up his sleeve, but you can’t quite trust him. So basically all these books are in a way to kind of have fun with the past, with mythology, with history, don’t screw with time and all that stuff. But I also it’s I just want to be able to take all this stuff I know about the ancient world around Greece and Egypt and just get people excited about it was not a heavy treatise on,

00:55:14:16 – 00:55:31:07
Neil Laird
And, you know, you don’t have to read Homer. My book is you get a reading, Homer, let’s just say. And it’s fun, it’s comedic. So obviously it’s if you skewers television as much as anything else. So it definitely is a lighthearted way of time traveling to, very violent, distant times.

00:55:31:09 – 00:55:43:28
Dan LeFebvre
I imagine maybe thousands thousand years from now, you know, people will take just a few lines from your book and make another movie similar to what they did with Troy and with Homer’s writings from thousands of years ago.

00:55:44:01 – 00:55:51:27
Neil Laird
Or, oh, this is the only thing he survived. And I assume that time travel was real and that the gods are really a bunch of TV producers. The cameras.

00:55:51:27 – 00:55:54:07
Dan LeFebvre
Yes, yes.

00:55:54:09 – 00:56:09:12
Neil Laird
Yes, the incidents of history are amazing. It’s I love like what survives and what doesn’t. And that’s all sometimes we know about entire culture because one papyri, you know, was, was, was, you know, saved underneath a falling pillar. So that’s all we know about an entire culture.

00:56:09:14 – 00:56:25:18
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. I sometimes it’s just luck. Right. Well, I make sure to add a link to all your books in the show notes. So that we can increase the chances of it living forever. Thank you again so much for your time, Neal.

Dan LeFebvre
Looking at Black Hawk Down from an overall perspective, what letter grade would you give it for its historical accuracy?

Joshua Donohue
>> So I’m gonna give Blackhawk down at A minus. And the minus just for, you gotta have a little bit of criticism, a little bit of critique, you have the whole Hollywood versus history. Blackhawk now does that in a lot of different areas with characters and things that were said, things that weren’t said, you have things based on actual events as you see in the film. But overall, the most impressive grade that I heard was from the actual veterans themselves who were there. They say that the film really is about 75 to 80% accurate as far as what happened. So really getting that stamp of approval from the guys who were actually there, I thought was pretty profound. So I would say definitely, in terms of military history films, it’s a top 10, maybe even the top five film for me. Ridley Scott, the director, is of course famous for such legendary films as Alien, Blade Runner, the Gladiator films. So this shoot, I restretched, it was quite complex in terms of its logistics. They wanted to give a real urban setting. Of course, Jerry Bruckheimer and his production team involved. His body of work really speaks for itself. So they were actually originally going to shoot in Jordan, but they felt that the city area had kind of long walls. They really didn’t give it that appearance that they wanted. They felt that they wanted to go to Morocco, where actually the year prior Scott had shot scenes for Gladiator there. So I think he really did a great job as far as the landscape there, giving it more authenticity from really from what a true African country, especially Somalia in 1993, what would it have looked like. So Scott was nominated for Best Director at the Academy Awards. The film won two Oscars for Best Filmmaking, Editing, and Best Sound. So the helicopter scenes were real. I mean, didn’t really see a whole lot of CGI in there. Those helicopters were real. They used them. They have all professional pilots in the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment. You’re in the Blackhawks with the Rangers, on the Little Birds with the Delta guys. So it’s a terrific mix of casting too. It’s, for me, one of the best, maybe the best in terms of casting for a war film. You have Sam Shepard, who plays General William Garrison. Tom Sizemore plays Colonel Danny McKnight. Established actors, younger guys, kind of come up, like Eric Bana, who plays Norm “Hoot” Hooten. You also have Ewan McGregor in there, Jeremy Piven, younger core of actors, like Orlando Bloom, who plays Todd Blackburn. Tom Hardy in there. Josh Harnett, who’s really one of the central characters, plays the Army Ranger Matt Eversman. So Eversman, just so people understand, his character is really the central character really throughout the film. He’s a sort of composite character. He’s actually himself and Lieutenant Larry Perrino. So he’s sort of this composite character. And another character to mention as well is the character played by Sanderson, played by William Fichtner. That’s actually based upon Delta operator Sergeant Paul Howe, who we’ll get to in a moment. He’s quite an interesting guy. So again, the film, I think, really, as far as authenticity, gets the grade A there. What’s interesting about it too is there’s an extended version that’s out there. That’s the one that you watched. And when I first saw the film originally, a lot of those scenes– I mean, I almost felt when I watched the extended version for the first time, I felt like I was watching the movie all over again. It was like, oh, I don’t remember that scene. It was all throughout the film. They had literally made a much longer film, but it tops out over two hours. And it’s difficult to sort of condense an 18-hour battle into a two-hour film. So there’s certain things that are going to get left out, things that the veterans say, oh, that should have made it in. So you’re trying to jam in a lot of people and a lot of different situations and different events to one. But overall, I really think they really scouted, and Brock Harman just did a phenomenal job on it. [AUDIO OUT] Yeah. And I think most people would agree in terms of the authenticity of it. He really pays special detail and special attention to all of those little– right from the weapons that each soldier had. Take the two snipers, Randy Chigart and Gary Gordon. Gary Gordon was carrying a specific type of– it was called an M733. It was a modified M4 rifle. It had a silencer. It had the scope on it. Randy Chigart would carry around an M14 sniper rifle, which was an old Vietnam-style gun. And the guys used to tease him all the time about it. But it had stopping power. It shot the 7.62 millimeter round. And as we’ll discuss in a little bit, in terms of the battle, the heavier round would have made a difference in terms of– especially the militiamen they were going to be fighting up against.

Dan LeFebvre
>> Before the movie jumps to October 3rd, 1993, it uses a lot of on-screen text to kind of set up the situation in Somalia in 1992 and leading into the events that we see in the movie. So I’m gonna read out this before asking my next question. This is a direct quote from the movie, kind of the text that sets everything up. Years of warfare among rival clans causes famine on a biblical scale. 300,000 civilians die of starvation. Muhammad Farah Adid, the most powerful of the warlords, rule the capital Mogadishu. He seizes international food shipments at the ports. Hunger is his weapon. The world responds. Behind a force of 20,000 US Marines, food is delivered and order is restored. April 1993, Adid waits until the Marines withdraw and then declares war on the remaining UN peacekeepers. In June, Adid’s militia ambush and slaughter 24 Pakistani soldiers and begin targeting American personnel. In late August, America’s elite soldiers, Delta Force, Army Rangers, and the 160th SOAR are sent to Mogadishu to remove Adid and restore order. The mission was to take three weeks, but six weeks later, Washington was growing impatient. And that is the end of kind of the introductory text. Since we’re setting up the historical context, is there anything that you would change or add to the way that the movie sets up this situation?

Joshua Donohue
Maybe a few things, but I think overall, again, you’re trying to give people the central themes of what’s– the main events and what’s going on. And I think it does a really good job there, really from describing the events from 1992 into 1993. And I think even before that, again, it pretty much sums up the major sequence of events leading up to the battle. There are other important events within the timeline, especially after, as you mentioned, the Pakistani peacekeepers are killed. So to sort of delve into the history of the events leading up to the Battle of Mogadishu during what’s known as Operation Gothic Serpent, and that’s really when the mission changes from a sort of a humanitarian one to one that are– we’re now going after Mohammed Farah Aidid. It’s also referred to sometimes as the Battle of the Black Sea. So there were a number of sort of geopolitical events which affected Somalia from inside out, really from the year 1991 in particular. So from January 1991 to March of 1991, you have the spectacular victory that America gets in Desert Storm, Operation Desert Storm, defeating Saddam Hussein’s forces in Iraq, driving them out of Kuwait after they invaded there in August of 1990. So that victory had really bolstered American confidence. I remember it very well. It was the first really conflict that I remember growing up as a child. I remember everyone tying the yellow ribbons around the trees. It was–you know, from what I had been told, it was a much different experience of what happened after the Vietnam War, which was really the last major war that we had fought. So in many ways, that victory helped heal a lot of those old wounds from the Vietnam War that had been left, you know, since their bloody campaign there. Ironically, the Battle of Mogadishu would be the largest firefight that the American soldiers would experience since Vietnam. And one of the commanding intel officers explains that it was worse than what he had experienced. Just that 18-hour battle was worse than all of his four combat tours in Vietnam. So that’s a pretty telling description. Another particular geopolitical event was the collapse of the Soviet Union at that time as well. That had a wide-ranging effect on other countries. They had held influence over Somalica in terms of the geopolitical sphere of influence. So the communist sphere had been lifted, no longer a threat to the international sort of order of things. So with the absence of the old Soviet order, we start to see a profound Islamic influence begin to channel its way through the streets of Mogadishu and throughout the country in that particular region. So as for Somalia itself, the country was soon embroiled in civil war when the president of what was known as the Somali Democratic Republic, Mohamed Siad Barre, was the president who had been ruling since 1969. He was overthrown and the central government effectively collapsed and Mohamed Farah Aidid was instrumental in this occurring. So when civil war begins, you have these rival clans beginning to fight it out on the streets of the city. The country is plunged into a terrible famine and the results in the deaths of estimates over 300,000 men, women, and children dying from the effects of starvation by early 1992. So there were attempts by non-governmental organizations or NGOs as they’re known to alleviate the suffering of the Somali people. They were greeted by attacks by the militiamen, especially those belonging to what was known as the Habergeer clan, the most powerful clan in Mogadishu. Mohamed Farah Aidid was the head and was instrumental in initiating the coup which overthrew Barre, as I mentioned, and he was now the leader of what was known as the Somali United Congress during the Somali civil war. So in addition to the 300,000 Somalis who perished during the famine, tens of thousands more are killed in the intense fighting that’s going on in the city between these rival clans. So another major thing to talk about is you have what’s occurring in the United States at the time. George H.W. Bush 41 lost the election that November, so this is one of his last major decisions as he’s going out. Of course, President Bill Clinton will take the White House over in January of 1993, so one of his last major decisions, President Bush will order 20,000 U.S. Marines to Somalia to really spearhead a new peacekeeping initiative known as Operation Restore Hope. So the Marines are instrumental in restoring order and making sure the food supplies are making it to the Somali people, especially to the people in the sort of the outlying areas, the remote areas outside the city of Mogadishu. So when I was researching it, there was a great documentary that ITN News did, and they followed around the progress of the UN mission and following the food deliveries to these stricken areas. One aid worker there was commenting on how the deliveries of wheat would not have been possible without the aid of the United States Marines. So as a result of the Marines being there, the attacks on the peacekeepers became less and less. Once the Marines were drawn, again, in the middle of 1993, Aidid literally launches an offensive and trying to seize power immediately right afterwards, setting up attacks once again. He launches control of the city, and on June 5, 1993, the Pakistani contingent of UNISOM inspecting one of Aidid’s Radio Mogadishu stations comes under attack by militiamen belonging to the SNA, the Somali National Alliance. A crowd gathers outside, and they absolutely slaughter these 24 Pakistani peacekeepers. Between 16 and 25, Somalis are killed. And in the aftermath of this, in the chilling foreshadowing of the events we’ll see in the aftermath of October 3, the Pakistani peacekeepers’ bodies are butchered. They are desecrated, hacked apart, dragged through the city. I saw one news clip where these two guys are just holding a piece of an arm, and it’s just flesh and clothing hanging off of it. So this is really the central turning point. Now the UN begins to scale down their presence in Somalia, and the media is now questioning whether the UN is even capable of controlling the situation there. Even the people at the food shipment ports are saying the UN is not going to be able to maintain control of it. So as a result of the Pakistani peacekeepers being killed, a squadron of AC-130 Spectre gunships will answer the June 5 attack, hitting four weapons arsenals and the radio station also owned by Aidid. So the UNISOM mission effectively changes from a humanitarian mission into one now, we’re starting to see special forces move in in August of ’93. It’s changing now to a hut for Aidid. So it becomes–the humanitarian mission is at a standstill. UNISOM is eventually replaced by widespread anger at the continued military presence there of the United States. So tensions would further be exacerbated by the raid in what was known as the Abdi house. An American Cobra gunships and OH-58 Kiowa helicopters will fire tow missiles into the house where there’s a meeting of Aidid officials taking place. Between 20 and 70 people are killed, and many people say that that meeting was actually–there were some peaceful Klan leaders and they’re trying to resolve the situation. And again, we never really knew the real story there. So you have August 10, 1993, an IED will detonate under a U.S. military police vehicle, killing four U.S. servicemen. So Somalis were particularly bothered by this constant American presence, especially of helicopters flying over the city all the time. And Aidid’s men are slowly but surely stepping up their attacks on the Americans leading up to October 3. And this comes to a height, and this is about a week shy prior to it, of September 25, 1993, Somali militiamen will shoot down a Black Hawk helicopter over Mogadishu, killing three U.S. personnel on board. So this particular attack will mark a significant psychological victory for the Somali militiamen. They had now successfully–American helicopter– and now are seeing that these pilots are going to go on these raids. There have been six of them conducted before October 3, but the pilots are now being more aware that, yeah, we could be hit by one of these, and we could fall victim to a pretty serious attack.

Dan LeFebvre
>> Well, that’s, I mean, thank you for sharing a lot of that more, more context because there were a few things that you were saying there. Just thinking of perhaps one of the biggest manhunts, you know, that the military did for Osama bin Laden, right, which will be much later. But it wasn’t, you know, sending 20,000 Marines in. And so understanding how this is different, you know, before that and then how it changed too. And I’m sure this will come up later as we start to dig in some of the more details of this particular mission. But the idea of whether or not they could actually shoot down the helicopter and their strategies for that, it sounds like the movie doesn’t really mention that other Black Hawk being shot down in September. But that had to have been top of mind for everybody there.

Joshua Donohue
Yeah, absolutely. And they had to, of course, have a contingency plan for this. They knew as soon as going into any of these raids that this was becoming more and more of a possibility. You’re seeing Aidid’s forces– they’re going to go toe-to-toe with the Americans. And again, they’re well aware of every street, every alleyway, how to bottle forces up, how to keep reinforcements from coming into the city by using roadblocks. We see that throughout the film as well. So again, a mission that’s supposed to take 30 minutes, it’s going to be a lot longer than that, unfortunately, for the Americans. But again, there was a lot of tension building up, especially once the mission changes from not so much a humanitarian one now to going after Aidid. It was Admiral Jonathan Howe, I think, was the one that put up the reward poster for Aidid, I think $25,000. His husband, Otto, the guy they capture early on in the film, mentions it when he’s having that cigar conversation. He’s like, “Miami is not Cuba.” You know, that whole thing where they’re having tea and all that stuff. And that raid actually did happen, and he was captured in a little bit different circumstances. And Otto actually himself said when he saw the film, “That’s no way who I am.” And they sort of didn’t really get that character really the way that– in real life the way it was. But you start to see that we’re going after more high-value targets, people who are directly in contact with Aidid. We’re starting to nip away at his network over time, and that comes to an end on October 3rd.

Dan LeFebvre
>> You mentioned taking 30 minutes and that leads right into my next question. Because according to the movie, the goal of the mission is to capture some of ID’s high ranking officials at this secret meeting. And they have a local guy, you know, parking his car near the building where the meeting is taking place so that they know where to drop in the helicopters. The plan is to take the officials prisoner and then signal the Humvees to come pick them all up, the soldiers as well as the prisoners, and then head back to base. And as you said, you know, the mission is supposed to take 30 minutes. Of course, as the movie title suggests, things do not go according to plan. But before we talk about how things go wrong, how well do you think the movie did kind of explaining the mission of October 3rd, 1993?

Joshua Donohue
So as I mentioned before, Task Force Ranger had conducted six missions before October 3rd, and two of Aidid’s men, Omar Salad, who was Aidid’s top political advisor, and Abdi Hassan Awali, who is Aidid’s interior minister, they are considered by the intelligence community there as what are known as Tier 1 personalities, and you hear that mentioned in the film. They were both in regular contact with Aidid, are important to the operation, the daily operation of his militias. So Salad would be observed entering a house, which was located about a block from what you see in the film is called the Olympic Hotel. You see them when they fly in, they’re right above it. A Somali spy actually confirmed that both men were present at this meeting that morning, which also meant that Aidid also could possibly be there as well. And there was no– I should say the afternoon, not the morning, but there was no confirmation. So intelligence was not really– it was kind of scattered. They’re having to rely on locals to kind of work their way around the city. So to locate the precise location of the meeting, the Somali informant– in the film, he’s known as Abdi. He drives this sort of silver sedan with red stripes. In the film, he has black tape on the roof, whatever. In the film, he’s driving a white sedan with a cross over the car so the helicopters can see him.

Dan LeFebvre
So they could see, yeah.

Joshua Donohue
Yeah, so he was then instructed to park and stop his car in front of the Olympic Hotel and lift the hood as if giving the impression that he’s having an engine problem, and if Aidid’s militiamen suspected him for any reason, they would simply dismiss him once he’s seen looking under the hood of the car. So he does show some fear that, okay, if I get too close, they’re going to shoot me. So from there, the informant would get back in his car, park directly in front of the target building. So there was a helicopter. They had multiple layers of intelligence assets flying over the city from P-3, Orions, and again, Blackhawks are circling the C-2 bird. They’re monitoring this whole sequence of events that’s going on. So there was a helicopter flying and monitoring his movements, as you see in the film. This is where things start to go a little wrong. So the helicopter that was supposed to track the informant’s car had actually lost sight of him, and he tried to perform the engine check too quickly. He got back in the car and drove away. So by the time that the helicopter tried to reacquire him, he was already gone. So he had only caught the location where he was supposed to still be, but they couldn’t lock back onto his car. So Garrison then has the informant drive around the block, do it again, open his hood once he parks in front of the target building. So Garrison is watching this all unfold at the JOC, the Joint Operations Center. This is being fed live to him. As I said, there’s intelligence assets monitoring what’s going on, indicating now that the informant will park in front of the target building, open his hood. So this is relayed back to the Ranger, Task Force Ranger. Rangers and Delta are beginning to kit up back at their hangar at the Mogadishu Airport, and they start to strategize their plan of attack. So the CHOC leaders, the Rangers, were given detailed plans of where their blocking positions were going to be. They were going to have four Blackhawks basically surround the building, have the Rangers fast rope down. The Delta were all going to be going into the building, landing on the roof, landing on the streets, going right in. So Garrison at this point then has to call it off again. And as you see in the film, Abney makes the comment, “There are too many militia. If I get any closer, they’re going to shoot me.” So the car is parked short of the target building. So the task force was literally minutes away from launching a raid against the wrong house. So a similar event had actually occurred prior when the wrong house was raided, and it turned out to be a UN personnel gathering. There’s questions whether they were corrupt or whatever the case is, but you mentioned Washington in the beginning. This is one of the events that Washington sees, “Okay, we’re losing our patience with this whole thing now. We want to start seeing results. We want ID captured. We’re wasting time. The American public is starting to– We’re going to lose some support over this.” So Garrison then convinces the informant to park his car in front of the building on Hawatig Road. He then drives past the Olympic Hotel one block north, and that turns out to be the same building that Salon was seen entering by American observers from the air. So UN Second-in-Command General Thomas Montgomery, who’s also in charge of the 10th Mountain Division, Quick Reaction Force, or QRF as it’s known, says that the mission is a go to be sure that all UN personnel were cleared from the area. Garrison also gives the order to arm the MH-6 Little Bird helicopters with rockets, which will turn out to be a smart decision in light of what happens next. So when Garrison gives the mission briefing, a combined group of Rangers and Delta, this meeting more than likely didn’t take place, and may have in some levels, but you really had just all the main film characters that you had. Eric Band is there, Josh Hartnett’s there, Jeremy Piven’s there, all the stars are assembled into one place, of course, Tom Sizemore. So you get this sense that the mission is routine, but then you start to get the impression that it’s not going to be an ordinary mission. They go into further specifics about where they’re going to be going in the middle of the day, to Bacara Market, and as McKnight’s character says, it’s the Wild West. So you see the character Hoot, played by Eric Band, he sort of rolls his eyes at Garrison when he asks him, which exactly, which building is it? He says, well, somewhere in the Bacara Market, and he goes, well, it’s not my decision to make these targets, basically. It’s not my fault. So you sense there’s a little bit of a disconnect before the mission even begins. He then brings up another important aspect of the mission, which really did happen. Garrison says he requests light armor and an AC-130 Spectre gunship. I mentioned that earlier. And it says Washington and all of his wisdom decided against this too high profile. So Secretary of Defense Les Aspin actually used the one that is, you know, the Clinton administration, saying, no, we’re not going to give that kind of support. We don’t want this to get out of control. We don’t want these things going, shooting people up in the streets. It’s going to– the optics on it aren’t good. So that was really the impetus beside– you know, on that decision there. So the AC-130 had been in active service since leading up to the Vietnam War and during the Vietnam War. It carried two 20-millimeter cannons, a 40-millimeter cannon, and a 105-millimeter howitzer. So it’s an impressive and lethal weapons platform, and the option that might have changed the course of Operation Gothic Serpent and really the Battle of Mogadishu in total. Another moment is when we see that when McKnight walks out of the tent and he talks to Colonels Harrell and Matthews, and they say, what’s the matter, Danny? Something you don’t like? And then he goes into his whole spiel about middle of the day. Indeed, come out a serious counterattack on a moment’s notice, and I’ll talk about in a moment the plant cot, as it is mentioned a little bit in the film, but there’s more to that story.

Dan LeFebvre
>> Going back to the movie, as we see the mission start, almost right away, you’re talking about how things were, you know, even in the meeting, they were like, okay, things might not be rigid, but we start to see hints, too, as the mission’s starting, that things are probably not going to go right. There’s a line of dialogue I’ll point out from Ewan McGregor’s character, Grimes. He asks if the amount of fire that they’re getting is normal, and somebody with a soldier next to him says, “No, this is about 10 times worse than anything I’ve seen before.” Were there indications that early on that things might be worse than usual?

Joshua Donohue
Yeah, so as I mentioned, the scene with McKnight voicing his concerns to Colonels Harrell and Matthews, who are going to be in the C-2 bird, saying, you know, life’s imperfect for you to up in a bird a couple hundred feet up in the sky, but out on the street, it’s unforgiving, and you see that happen. So there’s that moment of almost foreshadowing of what he tells them. No Spectre gunship, middle of the day, and as I mentioned, cot. It’s a widely dispersed drug that is given out to the militiamen. It’s almost like it has a cocaine effect. Basically, it heightens your senses. You’re high on this drug. You’re chewing on it in the middle of the day. About an hour or so later, you’re twitching.

Dan LeFebvre
>> Just what you want with a gun.

Joshua Donohue
You’re ready to go, and yeah, exactly, and you’re not– your fear factor is brought down significantly. So many of the young men that were patrolling the streets of Mogadishu on what were called technicals– you see them in the film, these pickup trucks with a large caliber– whether it be a .50 caliber machine gun, whether it be an American or a Russian gun, or what’s called a recoilless rifle. So the drug, as I mentioned, many of the men were addicted to it. It’s really a mild amphetamine, so they would start again chewing on it, and it basically increases your aggressiveness, lowering your fear factor. So as the Americans will see once they hit the streets of Mogadishu, these men will sometimes take multiple hits and still keep coming at you, almost like zombies in a way. Those documentaries you watch, even young children, young boys– I vividly remember just seeing these young children. The rifle is practically bigger than they are. They’re in an AK-47. They’re practically dragging it. And they’re fighting literally every able-bodied person in the city. So as we go to the scene where Irene, the call to launch the mission, is given, garrisons going from one helicopter to another, telling the men good luck, no one gets left behind. This actually did happen. So there’s a little bit of a saying, “Okay, he doesn’t really do that,” and kind of giving a sense that, okay, he might have an inkling that this mission might be a little bit more risky. So when we see the Delta Force operators hit the ground at 3.42 p.m. and make their way into the target building, the meeting is taking place, the Rangers begin to fast rope down, and there’s that unforgettable scene where Army Ranger Private First Class Todd Blackburn misses the rope and falls almost 70 feet to the street. This indeed does happen, not because the pilot– in the show, an RPG is fired and Eversman yells to Walcott, “Jeremy Fibbon,” he kind of jerks the helicopter, it flies past. Yeah, it doesn’t really happen that way. Blackburn just–whether he missed the rope and he falls. Again, Eversman–I read his description of it– he doesn’t really see him fall, but as he’s roping down, he sees Blackburn motionless in the street, and that heavy rotor wash, the dust that’s whipped up and the dirt that’s flying around from the Blackhawks rotor wash is already being worked on there by two medics, Private Good and there’s another. They’ve already stabilized Blackburn, opened his airway. Eversman sees first-hand how bad Blackburn’s injuries are. He’s unconscious, he’s bleeding from the ears, nose, mouth, and Sergeant Jeff Strucker and the rest of the ground convoy have already reached their objective and are tasked with loading the prisoners, blocking the assault forces, and taking them really out of the city. So they’re really a mix, the convoy of Humvees, these M939 flatbed, these 5-ton trucks that would be moving in and out of the city. One of the Humvees was a cargo Humvee. They were also carrying a mix of Delta and Navy SEALs as well, so the SEALs were actually involved in this operation too for extra security on the convoy. So McKnight was leading the convoy, Strucker was then ordered to evacuate Todd Blackburn, and one difference that we see is Blackburn is evacuated– he’s actually evacuated in the SEAL Humvee, driven by Master Sergeant Chuck Eswine. So at this point, they have actually seized the objective. They’ve gotten a number of prisoners. They were hoping Idene was going to be among them, but unfortunately he’s not. But again, these two top Tier 1 personalities were the objective at the time. They got them. Obviously, besides the fact that Todd Blackburn’s severe injury, everything is going to plan, but things will, as we’ll see, fall apart pretty quickly.

Dan LeFebvre
>> In the movie it seems like things have just started there when we see the first American soldier getting killed. It’s Sergeant Pilla. He’s operating one of the machine guns on one of the Humvees going — as they’re going to pick up the prisoners. And then he’s shot in the neck and killed almost immediately. Was he the first KIA on the mission?

Joshua Donohue
Yeah, he was. He is– and I– Jeff Strucker tells the story of it, and he is– when they make the turn of the Humvees onto National Street, Jeff Strucker tells this with just such clarity. He says, “They– every side, all sides above them and on either side is just absolutely lit up with machine gun fire. They were just driving through a gauntlet as they were trying to get out of the city.” So Dominic Pilla was indeed the first KIA of the mission. He is shot and killed as the movie depicts. It’s a little bit different than I think you see, somewhat similar. Strucker describes it as they were driving through, and there was a Somali militiaman that stepped out with his gun. He was actually pointing it at a Paulson who was on the .50 caliber, and that Pilla had seen him, and they literally pointed their guns at each other. Pilla fired, killed the militiaman. The Somali fired, killed Pilla. So they literally shot each other dead at that moment. And again, that’s what Jeff Strucker describes. So when Pilla’s death, as you say, Pilla was a guy who was just a jokester in the hangar as he’s depicted in the movie, poking fun at Captain Mike Steele and Lieutenant Larry Perino. So when Strucker confirms Pilla’s death, and you see when McKnight keeps asking, “What’s the status? What’s the status?” and he says, “He’s dead,” all the veterans say the same thing, “What happens next?” The radio went absolutely silent for a couple of seconds, and then radio traffic picks up again. And that’s another thing that we’ll talk about. Just the communications that day were pretty chaotic and nonexistent in a lot of areas, which were the complicated things. So Pilla’s death comes as a bit of a shock for the task force, task force ranger. Strucker, when they pull in back to the base, talks about having to clean out the back of this Humvee, the scene where Eric Banner’s character looks into the back, sees all the blood, all the empty shell casings, the damage to the vehicle, the bullet holes in the glass of the vehicle. So when these Humvees arrive back with Pilla and Todd Blackburn, the activity at the ranger hangar is beginning to step up significantly. So they have to go back in the city because, obviously, what occurs next?

Dan LeFebvre
>> You mentioned — not to go back to Blackburn, I mean him being injured, but you mentioned the SEALs. And maybe one of the reasons why they didn’t really show that — I don’t — did they mention the Navy SEALs in the movie at all? I know they mentioned like the Delta Force and the Rangers, but I don’t remember the SEALs. So maybe it was just simple.

Joshua Donohue
They were there, but they don’t really– there’s no mention of them in the film at all. But during research, they definitely had a bit of a presence there, not nearly as pronounced as Delta Force and the rangers, obviously. But they were there, as I said, as really a backing force, extra security on those convoys. If you’re operating on the streets and you’re in the middle of a firefight and there are a couple of Navy SEALs around, you’re going to feel a little bit better about things. Absolutely, no discredit there either. So it was quite a bit of a mix of special operations groups all sort of intermingled at once. What’s interesting about the rocket-propelled grenade is that it’s actually not meant to be used in an anti-aircraft capacity whatsoever. It’s extremely dangerous and almost suicidal to point an RPG skyward because the violet backblast that’s emitted once the round is fired, if you’re facing a wall, the back of that concussion, that energy can just kill you. There’s been plenty of instances, I’m sure, where some unsuspecting RPG operator may not realize someone’s behind them and that thing goes off and that’ll kill you outright. So the pressure wave that’s created behind the RPG tube itself would basically hit a solid wall in a split second and then the wave comes back at the shooter. So Durant and the other Black Hawk pilots were becoming more mindful of the RPGs as they began to see more and more of them being shot at them in the missions leading up to October 3rd, as I mentioned, the one that happened in September of ’93. So another danger which faced the militiamen firing an RPG in the street was that if they, indeed, lived to tell the tale, they got really well adept at sort of firing quickly in an open area without worrying about killing the operator and quickly ducking away in the best sort of manner because they could be easily seen by an MH-6 Little Bird pilot or a minigunner or one of the crew chiefs on the Black Hawks and they’re immediately going to shoot right at them. So when Cliff Walcott’s Black Hawk Super 6-1 is hit by an RPG, the shooter is actually seen, and this is in real life, by Staff Sergeant Charlie Warren, who was one of the crew chiefs with Staff Sergeant Ray Dowdy in the back of their helicopter. So Super 6-1 will lose sight of the shooter for a few moments as it’s going into its turning orbit. Seconds later, the RPG is fired and strikes Super 6-1’s tail rotor. The film does a good job showing what happens in this particular instance. Walcott’s Super 6-1 will crash into a narrow alleyway on its side leaning up against a brick wall. And to fast forward a little bit, in 2013, CBS News 60 Minutes did a report on– they dug up a lot of the wreckage of Super 6-1. We’ll go to that later on. They show actual footage of Super 6-1’s crash. It’s out there. And you see it immediately starts to spin, and the violence, the horrific impact you see, it takes your breath away. And the film does a good job of depicting this. And when it happens, there are Delta operators also in the back of Super 6-1. Jim Smith, Jim McMahon, and Dan Bush all survive the impact along with the two crew chiefs, Dowdy and Warren. Unfortunately for the two pilots, Cliff– Elvis Walcott and Donovan Bull-Briley, his co-pilot, both are killed in the impact instantly. Delta Staff Sergeant Dan Bush would lose his life defending the crash chopper. You see this depicted in the film. You also see it once in the actual footage of Super 6-1’s crash. They show the camera as it kind of comes around, and you can see right down the narrow alleyway. You can just make out Dan Bush standing at the end of the alleyway firing his machine gun down at the Somalis. As you see in the film, Richard Tyson plays him in the film. He’s all bloody. He’s standing outside defending the chopper. That’s a true story. Dan Bush died defending Super 6-1. He shot multiple times. So as I mentioned earlier, I.D.’s militiamen were getting much more aggressive, but there were attacks on the American helicopters. And again, as I mentioned, the one on September 25th and then the week prior. So there was indeed a plan to go get these guys. And as you see, Star 4-1, the MH-6 Little Birds, ordered to go down, land right at the crash site, and evacuate wounded. This is a true story. Chief Warrant Officer 3, Carl Meyer, and Chief Warrant Officer 4, Keith Jones, both fly in in the middle of this firefight. Literally, I believe it’s–I think it’s Meyer might be the one– is literally his arm is out–you see in the film, his arm is out the window shooting an MP5 with once the stick of the helicopter and his gun out the window shooting back. They would be awarded the Silver Star for their efforts there. So the Dan Bush defense of the helicopter, it did indeed happen. And again, the footage of Super 6-1, as you can see, but when it was released in 2013, is about as close to the actual– what you see in the film–happen.

Dan LeFebvre
>> Wow, wow. Well, obviously, once Super 6-1 goes down in the movie, Yeah, they really had to, because what had happened, it’s going to be obvious to everybody. This is no longer the 30-minute mission that we had talked about earlier. And maybe you already answered this somewhat, but what — did they have a contingency plan in place for, like, when this helicopter goes down?

Joshua Donohue
obviously, as I mentioned the week prior, they immediately send out a quick reaction force to get forces to the site as quickly as possible, because they’re, in effect, in a race against time. And that’s why you see when the helicopter goes down, there’s that immediate–Garrison’s looking at this whole thing happening, and he makes that great quote, “We just lost the initiative.” And that changes the entire landscape of the battle. You now are going from this mission where we’ve just captured a big group of IDID’s top officials, and we are just close to getting everything squared away and out of the city, and then the mission changes once Super 6-1 is shot down. So from that point on, and then obviously later on when Super 6-4 is shot down, the mission will just go right from getting survivors out, seeing what we can do as far as if anyone’s trapped inside, we don’t even know who’s alive. And obviously with Super 6-4, we’ll see a different set of circumstances happen there. It’s a little bit further south of Walcott’s crash site. So they definitely had a plan to go in, get these guys out, and what they do is the survivors, the U.S. Air Force pararescue men come in, Wilkinson and others, as you’ll see in the film, are inside the Black Hawk trying to get the crew chiefs out, both the Dowdy and the other, and literally the helicopter’s on its side. Everything’s just been thrown out of the helicopter. It’s laying in a really tight alleyway. So they literally will use Super 6-1 as a casualty collection point. They’ll put up armor plating and anything they can dig out of the helicopter to defend it. There’s machine guns already in the helicopter. There’s M16s and other rifles in there in case this happens. So they definitely were planning for in case this does happen, we have to consolidate our forces, move them into the crash site, and defend it the best way we can until we can get a ground convoy in there to get everybody out. But as we see in the film, and this does happen in real life, they are able to get Donovan “Bull” Briley’s body out of the helicopter. He’s kind of up, leaning up on its side, so they’re able to kind of pull him down. But for Cliff Wolcott, the crash, the violence of the crash is when he’s driven the helicopter into the ground. He is trapped by the frame, really the front panel, instrument panel of the helicopter. So getting his body out of the helicopter will take some time. But as the military of the United States of America, we strongly adhere to no soldier left behind.

Dan LeFebvre
>> Yeah, and we’ll talk more about that as we get further into the movie. But I’m curious cuz the movie really focuses obviously on the United States side of things. But there are hints that we’ve talked about already about more gunfire than they expected. And so from the Somalian side, again, just being movies being movies, they often tend to exaggerate things. But it just seems like there’s constant waves of the Somalian militia. Can you clarify what the Somalian resistance was like?

Joshua Donohue
Well, as you can see, Aidid’s militia were well-armed and prepared to go toe-to-toe with the Americans on the streets of Mogadishu. One of the key strategies was what we see happens when crowds are gathering. Roadblocks are being quickly put into place. They’re using the burned-out hulks of cars. They’re using anything they could possibly use as a deterrent and preventing American reinforcements from getting in and out of the city. So these tire fires start burning up and going up in the sky. That’s also a signal saying that whoever’s in the immediate area that come to where this tire fire is, and there’s going to be activity where this is going to be. So while it might seem sort of in many ways primitive and shaking their head, “How can we let this possibly happen this way?” They’re not a technically advanced force. But if you’re using simple tactics, they will bring…

Dan LeFebvre
>> It’s their home ground too, so they know, yeah, the ins and outs too, yeah.

Joshua Donohue
Yeah, the simplest things can make a biggest difference on the battlefield.

Dan LeFebvre
>> Yeah.

Joshua Donohue
So another thing is, if you’ll notice throughout the film, the Somalis are using both Soviet and American-made weaponry for the most part. The predominant is the Kalashnikov, the AK-47, with its signature banana clip. You definitely see American Browning .50 caliber machine guns mounted on the back of Somali technicals. You also see Russian Dushka heavy machine guns as well. So during the Cold War, there were huge stockpiles of both American and Soviet-made weapons at their disposal. Both countries were major arms suppliers at different points during the Cold War. So there were also numerous amounts of weapons, ammunition going in and out of the city, acquired before and after the regime of the former president, Mohammed Sayyad Barre. So weapons begin to filter through the Somalia from Egypt, from Libya, Kenya, from countries near the Persian Gulf, through the black market. So these heavily armed militias were known as the Moriyan. They’re basically these young Somali gunmen who are recruited from refugee camps and trained as militia. So they fell also into the drunk trade and with warlords controlling the flow of cot, as I mentioned as well. They would hand out the drug to these militias and giving them, obviously, as we talked about, the much more aggressive potency of the drug. You’re basically creating these soldiers who are not going to run away from the fight. As you see, they are standing firm, going out of windows, rooftops. Every which way they can conduct an effective urban combat type of battle, they’re going to do that. So Aidid was able to really round up, organize, an effective fighting force within really minutes or maybe even a few hours. As Major General David Meade noted, he was the command of the U.S. Army’s 10th Mountain Division in August of 1993, and only really a quick reaction force of reinforcements, again, preventing the engineers and the tankers from being under attack, overwhelmed and killed, he wrote. So the attack was troublesome, as he mentioned, because of the boldness and the commitment to Aidid’s forces to the apparent planning that went into it. So General Meade estimated between 300 and 500 Somali fighters had assembled, bringing peacekeepers in particular at that point in time under fire on a regular basis. So this is before even a major combat operation is launched. They’re putting these forces against peacekeepers. So they have these really well-coordinated, well-rehearsed scenarios. Okay, when this group comes in, we’re going to hit them here, or we’re going to hit them here, we’re going to trap them here, we’ll let them out here. So when that– really what has changed is that the militiamen, as far as when they were better organized, where the United Nations had sort of took over the Somalia operation in May of ’93, they saw them far more ready to use command-detonated mines, making it more difficult for U.S. forces to attack. You worry about mines and IEDs, you’re really going to– they’ll pay attention using roadblocks, mortar attacks, and ambushes to great effect as well. So it’s also important to note that Somali fighters were also highly experienced. They’ve been fighting the civil war for the better part of the last five or six years. They handle large caliber weapons. Women and children are also fighters as well. So most of the Rangers and even a lot of the Deltas did not have that continuous, sustained combat experience. There were some who had obviously probably seen Operation Desert Storm to a limited degree, but for the most part, in the 1980s, you had these sort of limited operations. The 160th Delta and Rangers were involved in Operation Just Cause, which happened in 1989, taking Manuel Noriega and that whole situation there when George Bush had just become president. So again, most of the Rangers and Delta are fighting an experienced– the average militiaman, even a small child might have experience, and you really don’t know. So it can certainly complicate a typical battle where you’re trying to search house to house for the enemy and try to limit civilian casualties at the same time. That’s something that’s not easy to do, as we see. The scene where Eddie Uric is kind of– he gets lost down an alleyway. He ends up in a school with some young children and a teacher, and he’s telling them to be quiet, and the father and his son are hunting them outside with their AK-47s. He slips, and the son shoots his father on accident and goes to hug him, and he’s dying there as the son, whose arms are around him. That’s the kind of thing that they would experience. It wasn’t just 20-, 30-year-old men. They’re fighting men and children of all ages and all genders.

Dan LeFebvre
>> That really puts a lot more into perspective too, I mean, cuz you think of, if you’re just watching the movie and you think, okay, there’s Delta Force and they’re fighting battles against just civilians that just have been armed with weapons, but there’s more to it than that, than just they’re handing out. Not in this movie, but you see movies where they just have weapons that they just hand out to people as they’re running to the battle, right?

Joshua Donohue
Yeah, you see that in the film.

Dan LeFebvre
And you almost think that that might.

Joshua Donohue
Like right when they are launching the mission and you see where the young child is holding up the phone, and then he calls to the other young boy. He throws the phone down, and it gives it to the head Somali– one of the head Somali militiamen there, and then they go right into– Bacara Market is really what it is, but it’s a market for weapons. They’re just selling assault rifles and ammunition right on the streets, and they’re just going– at any given moment, if there’s an attack, they can gather a good amount of weaponry and use it at their disposal at pretty much a moment’s notice.

Dan LeFebvre
>> Earlier you mentioned Super Six Four, and if we go back to the movie, we see everyone is trying to secure Super Six One’s crash site. And then the unimaginable happens, another Black Hawk helicopter, Super Six Four, is hit. And at first, according to the movie, they think at first it’s gonna be okay, but then we see the tail rotor kind of sputters a little bit and then it flies off. And now there are two Black Hawk helicopters down. How well does the movie do showing the second crash?

Joshua Donohue
So a number of years ago, I read Mike Durant’s book. It came out about 10 years after the battle. It’s called In the Company of Heroes, and he details the sequence of events that occurs. So he describes the RPG hitting his Black Hawk. He definitely feels the impact, but he and his co-pilot Ray Frank are able to continue flying the MH-60 for, as he describes, and then hearing Matthews in the C-2 bird telling him, as you see in the film, that you’re hit pretty bad. You might be okay trying to sit down on the airfield and have it get checked out. He recalls that conversation, and Durant then describes how he wants to try to avoid landing anywhere in the city. He doesn’t want to land right in the middle of a firefight. He makes the decision to try and land– make the landing field, which is about 2 miles away from Mogadishu. So a few seconds later, the tail rotor assembly completely explodes and disintegrates. Again, they show a really good visual of that as it’s kind of flying through that column of smoke, and it’s kind of–you see it’s rotating, and it’s off-center, and it eventually disintegrates.

Dan LeFebvre
>> Kind of wobbles a little bit and then just, yeah.

Joshua Donohue
Yeah, so the tail rotor basically counters the torque that’s created by the main rotor. So once that balance is effectively disrupted, the helicopter is going to spin like this. So Durant and Ray Frank are wrestling the controls, trying to counter the spin, trying to pull the engine levers above them offline, but the centrifugal force created from the spin makes it nearly impossible to pull the engine levers, which the pilots were attempting to do at the time. Ray Frank, I think, gets a few of them, but not all of them. And in a chilling sort of audio, when Super 64 crashes, as happens in the film and also in real life, you hear Mike Durant yell “Ray” as soon as the helicopter goes down, and Durant and Ray Frank have managed to land the helicopter flat. It actually comes down and crushes a dwelling that they land right on the middle of it, whereas Super 61 landed with much more of an uncontrolled sort of violent impact. So whatever Durant and Ray Frank were able to do, they were able to somehow, someway, in this cluster of tin roof air in the middle of a neighborhood, just land it right down flat. So Durant then recalls waking and realizing how badly he’s injured in the crash. Two of his vertebrae are crushed together. His right leg is broken on the edge of the seat of the Blackhawk. The seats that were meant to actually absorb a hard landing do its job, but Durant crashes extremely hard, and they basically say he tested that seat well beyond its limits. So Durant then recalls a conversation that he has with Ray Frank, who has suffered similar injuries as he has. They have a brief exchange, then Ray Frank tells him, “I’m gonna step out of the helicopter.” He moves himself out the door, and that’s the last time that Durant would ever see him alive. So in the back of Super 64, our crew chiefs, Bill Cleveland and Tommy Field, are grievously injured by the crash. It’s believed that both men will die not too long afterwards. Durant quickly realizes that the Somalis are on their way to the crash site. He can hear gunfire getting closer, and he’s preparing then to fire his gun out the window at any oncoming militiamen. So there were several photographs taken of Super 64 in the days after the battle. One photo that I came across that I’d never actually seen before, it’s rare, it shows the tail section of Super 64, and you can see the shrapnel damage created by that RPG right in the back of the tail. So it’s pretty striking how much, how successful they are, getting not one, but two, and as we’ll talk about a little bit, there are other Black Hawks that will sustain hits from RPGs as well, not just those two.

Dan LeFebvre
>> Well, I guess it kind of goes to, I mean, they’re not, different crashes, they’re not gonna be the same, the way they’re hitting stuff. But for RPGs, correct me if I’m wrong, but they don’t target, it’s not like you think of a heat seeking missile or anything, it’s not anything like that. So it’s almost like, I’d say pure luck that they hit it, that sounds wrong. But how is the accuracy of that? I mean, I would assume that it’s just kind of, you shoot up and you hope that it hits.

Joshua Donohue
Yeah, it’s not a guided weapon. I think a lot of, probably some of the concerns of a lot of the commanders there at the time where there’s what’s called NANPADS, or what’s called a Stinger missile, which is a shoulder-launched, heat-seeking guided missile that once you lock on to an aircraft or a helicopter and that missile’s fired, that thing is going to go straight at its target where…

Dan LeFebvre
>> Use that one in Call of Duty, yeah.

Joshua Donohue
Yeah, exactly. Where you have an RPG, it simply, you fire it, it has a rock, sort of like a motor, a spinning propeller motor at the end of it, and it makes that very distinct whirring sound as it goes by you. But once it loses its momentum, it just basically, it just arcs over and just kind of drops down and then it explodes. So you kind of have to be in a spot where the momentum is going to, that projectile is going to go straight up into its target and you’re not really going to have to be sort of lobbing it or arcing, you have to make a really direct shot at the helicopter. And if you see in the film, a couple of RPGs are shot at Durant’s helicopter, one hits and another kind of shoots over it, and it kind of, the physics of it gives you an idea of what the flight of the rocket around itself would do in flight. So I think that, you know, that really Scott just does a phenomenal job there. And again, it’s not a, it’s a dangerous thing to fire one of these things. You’re supposed to shoot it straight ahead, not up. But they’ve again, rehearsed and practiced this and it is again, successful and it turns out to be successful again, as I mentioned, multiple times, not just against Super 6-1 and Super 6-4.

Dan LeFebvre
>> Yeah, I’m glad you mentioned the other one that the movie shows missing. And we talked about it before with Blackburn, the movie shows another one that gets shot and missing. So you get to see this sense of, it’s not just like they shot twice and happened to hit two helicopters. It was, you’re shooting and just you happen to hit some of them, but you’re shooting a lot in the air.

Joshua Donohue
Because these Blackhawks would fly in such a low orbit that if there’s somebody, if someone’s on a roof or has direct line of sight and you’re out in the open and you’re brave enough to go out there and not get caught off guard by a Little Bird or another Blackhawk or the Blackhawk you’re shooting at, you have a pretty good clear line of sight and you can certainly, as the Somali militiamen prove, make that shot and again, to great effectiveness that they know just by the lessons that they’d learned. And this is all playing right into Adid’s strategy because he knows that they’re not going to run away. They’re going to go right to those crash sites and he now has the ability to effectively trap the Americans inside the city itself.

Dan LeFebvre
>> Well, at this point in the movie’s timeline, there’s two crash sites. And according to the movie, there’s a scene in the Joint Operations Center where they kind of lay out the situation once the second Blackhawk goes down. It’s laid out to General Garrison there. And according to the movie, there’s ground forces in several buildings. They’re all kind of spread out. Eversman’s Chalk 4 has a perimeter set up around Super 6-1’s crash site. They were the first helicopter to go down. And then Captain Steele has about 40 men a couple blocks away, but they’ve suffered a lot of injuries, so they can’t all move. And a small Delta Force team under Sergeant Sanderson is leaving Steele’s position to go try to establish a perimeter around Super 6-4’s crash site. Is that a pretty good snapshot of what the situation was like after Super 6-4 went down?

Joshua Donohue
Yeah, it is. As conditions continue to deteriorate and the mission had effectively bogged down because as I mentioned, as the Super 6-1 crash site, Cliff Walcott’s body is crushed inside with the helicopter so they have to literally cut the helicopter apart. They tried digging him out from below. That’s not successful. So they are frantically trying to get his body out. So that is kind of complicating things. Keeping the perimeter around the crash site. There’s about 99 Rangers taking up defensive positions within the buildings in the growing shadows of now nightfall is starting to happen on the city of the northern crash site. So they treat their wounded. They work to free, again, Super 6-1 pilot, Chief Warrant Officer Cliff Walcott’s remains from the wreckage. And while all holding off these frantic Somali militias that were trying to get to them as quickly as possible. So as I mentioned, you see in the film where Star 4-1 with Meyer and Keith Jones coming in to get Dan Bush and a number of the other guys out of there, the severely wounded guys out of the crash site. There’s another part that you don’t see in the film. A combat search and rescue, or CSARBUR as it’s known, was dispatched in Blackhawk Super 6-8. So this one was led by Captain Bill Coltrop and a 15-man CSAR team, including, as I mentioned, the United States Air Force Sergeant Scott Fales and Sergeant Timothy Wilkinson. They are USAF para-rescue men. So they, Staff Sergeant Jeffrey Bray is among there, to mention him as well. They fast-roped down to Super 6-1’s crash site, and rappelling down an SNA RPG would hit Super 6-8 as well. It nearly severs the main rotor blades, and Super 6-8 is piloted by Dan Gelada, Chief Warrant Officer Dan Gelada, and Major Herb Rodriguez, and they’re able to limp the helicopter back to base. I think Rodriguez is knocked unconscious, and Gelada has to fly the helicopter pretty much single-handedly and limp this thing, fuel’s pouring out of it. That helicopter takes a major hit as well. So Wilkinson then moves quickly to the front of Super 6-1 on the ground. Delta soldier Sergeant McMahon, who was in the back of Super 6-1 when it crashed, he is already on top of the bird, trying to pull out Donovan “Bull” Briley out of the passenger seat, out of the co-pilot seat, and Briley was obviously dead. He had suffered a major injury, a head injury. His body was, again, brought out. Wilkinson then helps McMahon pull other survivors that they carry them over to, as I mentioned, the casualty collection area in around the crash site itself. So then McMahon goes to get medical attention for his own injuries. So the helicopter itself had not exploded. There was no major fire. It had just simply dropped, and it was just quiet. There was no violent fire or explosions or anything like that. Captain Steele’s primary objective at this point was to consolidate his forces and gain some semblance of order on the ground and to pinpoint exactly where his men were in relation to his position in a courtyard area, which had been set up as a casualty collection point where the dead and wounded were being assembled. Delta operator Sergeant First Class Earl Fillmore had been killed on the way to the crash site, and this also came as a shock to many of the men who knew him. Tom Satterly, one of the Delta operators there, talks about his death and Dan Bush and the Delta guys as the Rangers. We’re all really, really tight with one another, and all of these guys are getting killed out there, and they’re thinking to themselves, “These guys who I’ve been training with and have known all these years are dying, where’s that–what am I going to– where does that leave me?” So Captain Mike Steele had lost contact with Matt Eversman’s Chalk 4. As you see during the battle, Lieutenant Larry Perino’s men would occupy a small tin shed. It was only a few yards away from Super 6-1. So it was around this time when Corporal Jamie Smith was shot, as you see in the film. Medic Kurt Schmidt and Larry Perino would drag Smith into a courtyard where the horses realized the bullet had severed his femoral artery. So that pretty much stalls any kind of rescue operation that’s going–because now they have Smith, who’s bleeding out in the middle of the street of Mogadishu. He’s dying, and Perino, then, radios Captain Steele and tells him that he has many wounded, he cannot move. So in the film, it’s actually Kurt Schmidt and Eversman, as you see working on Jamie Smith’s leg wound, but in reality, it’s actually Larry Perino, not Eversman, that’s with Kurt Schmidt, as they’re trying to clamp his arteries shut, and they can’t find it, it’s retracted up into his hip. So as dust begins to settle over Mogadishu, and one of the many examples of the brave pilots of the 160th Special Operations Aviation Regiment risking their lives to help their fellow soldiers on the ground, a Blackhawk Super 6-6, piloted by Chief Warrant Officers Stan Wood and Gary Fuller, would hover their Blackhawk over Marahan Road for a much-needed resupply. Delta operators in the back are literally shoving kit bags out of the helicopter with water, ammunition, IV bags. The helicopter was hit several times by gunfire, even damaging the transmission. So the pilots of the bird kept that thing steady right above the city, and they were able to resupply successfully and bring the bird back out again. So if you were flying a helicopter, especially a Blackhawk in low orbit over that city that day, you were going to draw fire, an intense amount of fire, as you see, as soon as they get in that vulnerable hold, that hovering pattern, they’re just a sitting duck. Yeah, they really are. And it just kind of gives you a snapshot of exactly what the situation on the streets of Mogadishu were going into from the evening of October 3rd into the next morning of October 4th. So part of the– when I was researching it, I came across one of the Delta operators who was there. I’ll mention him a little bit later on too. His name is Paul Howe, and he’s actually the character that Sanderson is, William Fichter’s guy, I mentioned that earlier. And I mentioned Tom Satterly, who was one of the Delta operators there. And this particular document– it’s almost a documentary, but it’s just Paul Howe talking for three hours about how the Deltas basically conducted the operation, how the Rangers’ leadership was, in many words, inept. He really goes after Captain Steele. So there’s a bit of a disconnect there between the guys on the ground, between the Deltas and the Rangers, a little bit of, okay, Paul Howe talks about he was along that same roadway hunkering down that night, and Satterly says, “I just remember how angry Paul Howe was that night. He was fuming that the mission had gone so badly, and he was literally taking his anger out on every possible person. He sees a Ranger in a wrong spot. “What are you doing? You’re not fighting. Dude, go over there and do it this way.” So he was literally lecturing the Rangers that night that he was just so– had all this pent-up energy, and things had just gone so badly that that description of it– and as I mentioned, that documentary is quite telling, Speaking of the different helicopters, if we go back to the movie, but we’ll get to that later on.

Dan LeFebvre
we see Sanderson’s team can’t get to the Super 64 crash site before another Black Hawk in the area notices that there’s hundreds of Somalian militia just heading to the crash site. So in the movie, we see two Delta snipers, Sugar and Gordon, requesting permission to cover the crash site until ground troops can get there. But they’re denied that request because command doesn’t want to risk another helicopter. Of course, in the movie, we see two of them crash, but as you’re talking about, there’s even more that got hit as well, so it makes sense. But then in the movie, they volunteer to go on the ground after they acknowledge that this means they’re probably going to be on their own. But we see the two Delta snipers, Sugar and Gordon, go on the ground, and they manage to pull out one of the surviving pilots, Durant, away from Super 64’s crash site. But then despite some heroic fighting on their part, the two snipers are overrun by militia. Durant is almost killed, but he’s taken captive instead. And at the end of the movie, we don’t have to go too far ahead, but we find out that Durant was released after 11 days of captivity, while Sugar and Gordon were the first soldiers to receive the Medal of Honor posthumously since the Vietnam War. How well does the movie do telling this part of the story?

Joshua Donohue
It’s about as close to the actual story as you could possibly get. The Black Hawk, which carried Randy Chigart and Gary Gordon, which was Super 6-2, followed by Mike Grafina, who was a good friend of Mike Durant’s, and Jim Racone. When Super 6-2 drops the two Delta snipers on the ground, the helicopter is also hit by an RPG. So this makes four Black Hawks hit by RPGs, and Super 6-2 is hit, and CSAR Bird Super 6-8 is hit. And then this RPG severely damages the Black Hawk and also severely wounds the Delta operator who’s in the back, Delta operator Brad Hauling. He loses his left leg as a result of this RPG hit. So Mike Grafina is able to limp his stricken Black Hawk back to the airfield. Again, it is severely damaged by this RPG. And Durant recalls when he’s at the helicopter and he’s trying to reorient himself, and he sees the Somali militia coming at him, as you see in the film. He sees Chigart and Gordon come around the aircraft and say, as you see in the film, he knocks on the helicopter, says, “Friendlies,” and they start firing. So he actually refers to them as Batman and Robin. They just had that, almost that superhero-like aura about them. They had just come out of nowhere and had this, again, this heroic presence about them. It lifted him out of the Black Hawk, placed him down just a short distance away, propped him up against the wall, and gave him a loaded MP5. So Durant says that they didn’t really say much to him other than ask him about his injuries. They went back around the front of the helicopter and started firing at the gathering crowd that was converging on the helicopter. So Durant actually recalls that Chigart and Gordon took Bill Cleveland, who was one of the Super 64 crew chiefs, placed him near Durant. Durant said that he was kind of incoherent. He can hear him talking but couldn’t really make out what he was saying. Obviously, he was severely injured from the crash, and that he knew he was in great pain, and he was soaked in blood. So Durant, as badly injured as he was, kept his head and really thought to himself that he was going to be rescued at any moment, and that he recounts the volume of AK-47 fire increasing as Chigart and Gordon kept up their fire against the large crowd. So as we see, Gary Gordon is killed, and then eventually Randy Chigart is killed as well. And I think the sequence of events that occurs is pretty accurate. Durant tells the story in such vivid detail. He says he was out of ammunition. He took the weapon, he put it on his chest, crossed his arms over his chest, and just looked up to the sky as the mob ascended upon him. And they just were beating him and just were yanking his gear off. He has a compound fracture of his leg.

Dan LeFebvre
I was going to say, he’s already injured, and then, yeah.

Joshua Donohue
His back is severely injured. I mean, he’s now in this predicament where you also see somebody come over and just absolutely hit him square across the face. It breaks his nose, his eye socket, his orbital, his cheekbone, and this actually does occur. He thinks to himself, “This is it. I’m done. I’m never going to be able to–this is going to be my last couple of breaths on Earth.” And as you see, the mob is quickly broken up by a couple of shots to the air. One of the Somali militiamen realizing that if we capture Durant alive, he could be of good value to us in terms of some kind of ransom. They were using food basically as currency. The more food shipments they’re receiving, that’s basically as good as money. You’re controlling the money, the food, and you’re controlling the entire power base more or less. Ideed’s men did have this sort of awareness of, “You know what? How could this benefit the militia? How is this going to benefit Muhammad Farah Ideed?” So there was that sense that capturing one of the Americans alive will not only have great propaganda value, but will also sort of shift the entire midi, the mood of the public opinion to our side more or less.

Dan LeFebvre
>> I’m assuming then the other, Cleveland, I think you said, right?

Joshua Donohue
Bill Cleveland did not survive.

Dan LeFebvre
I’m assuming he didn’t survive.

Joshua Donohue
And from all accounts, from what I can tell, as we see what happens in real life– and I remember this very well when I was– I had just started high school when this happened. And I vividly remember two things. I remember Mike Durant’s face in captivity, the picture of his face in the picture of his face is bloody, you can see the fear in his eyes. And I remember, and I believe by all accounts, Bill Cleveland is one of the American servicemen that’s dragged to the streets. And that happens. CNN showed those images right after the battle. So that part of it, the soldiers being dragged to the streets, those are the men of Super Six Four. [AUDIO OUT]

Dan LeFebvre
>> Wow.

Joshua Donohue
[AUDIO OUT]

Dan LeFebvre
If we go back to the movie, we had talked earlier about kind of what the original plan was, and we talked a lot about what happened in the skies with the helicopters,

Joshua Donohue
[AUDIO OUT]

Dan LeFebvre
but according to the original plan in the movie, Sergeant McKnight’s convoy of Humvees

Joshua Donohue
[AUDIO OUT]

Dan LeFebvre
was supposed to take everybody back to base camp, including the prisoners. But then in the chaos of the battle, McKnight’s convoy takes heavy fire.

Joshua Donohue
[AUDIO OUT]

Dan LeFebvre
Many of the soldiers are killed or wounded.

Joshua Donohue
[AUDIO OUT]

Dan LeFebvre
They’re low on ammo, and so we see Garrison asking McKnight for a no-BS analysis

Joshua Donohue
[AUDIO OUT]

Dan LeFebvre
of whether or not he can actually get to the crash site. McKnight says, “We’re going to do more harm than good if we do that,”

Joshua Donohue
[AUDIO OUT]

Dan LeFebvre
so they go back to base camp to rearm and regroup. Can you give an overview of how accurately the movie portrays McKnight’s convoy?

Joshua Donohue
[AUDIO OUT] In terms of the communications that day, as I told you earlier, as the situation on the streets of the city got more and more chaotic and confused, while I was researching it, I was able to hear some audio of the transmissions that were going on. And as I mentioned, you see in the film, “McKnight’s Convoy,” there was a delay from the JSOC to the C2 bird, from JSOC, from the surveillance to the C2 bird with Colonel Matthews and Harrell, then down to the ground elements. So this proved to be costly. And I listened to some of these transmissions, and you really get a clearer picture of exactly what these communication issues were plaguing, how they were plaguing the operation. In one transmission, you hear, quote, unquote, “Continue to take the next right. Turn southbound.” Then you hear a relay, “Next right, next right.” And then all of a sudden you hear, “Alleyway, alleyway.” And then if a long period of silence occurs, “Turn right.” And then you hear a garbled transmission, then all of a sudden, “King element, they just missed their turn. Roger. Take the next available right. Uniform.” Then, “Take the next available right.” That can be blocked. It can be, you know, whatever the case is. Then they have to completely take the convoy back around and what you see happens in the film, in the points where McKnight’s saying, “We just drove through there. Where are you taking us, basically?” And as they’re driving through, still, they’re getting shot to pieces. And another piece of communique you hear is, “Be advised, they’re coming under heavy fire.” And a long delay, then you hear, “Damn it, stop. Damn it, stop.” That they had missed the turn, that they have to hit the brakes, turn back around. And then you hear the relay, “Call me when uniform links up.” We’re still trying to get them into the area. You’re going to have to mark with smoke. Hopefully, we’ll get them close enough to where you can link up. Then it’s again, “Right turn, right turn.” Then they’re always, they’re taking more and more fire. So, as I mentioned, McKnight talks about armor and Garrison mentions armor. Defense Secretary Les Aspin denies that request. And you have to sort of enhance the Humvees with this armor because Hal brings up, as I mentioned, another Delta operator who the last one to lose his life, Matt Ryerson. He appears, Hal appears frustrated with this operation. And since information wasn’t really being passed to the convoy, there was a seven to eight second delay. So, they may really go through one or two intersections not realizing that they’d really missed their turn. So, the radio transmission you hear from McKnight is, “I’ve got a lot of vehicles. It’ll almost be impossible to move with all these casualties that I have getting to the crash site. It’s going to be awful tough. We’re pinned down.” And the reply back, most likely from Colonel Harrell is, “Danny, I really need you to get to that crash site. I know you turned west on Armed Forces Road. What’s your status?” And McKnight replies back, “This is Uniform 64. I have numerous casualties. We have vehicles that are halfway running. We’ve got to get these casualties out of here ASAP, back to the base. We need to get to the K4, over.” So, the fire was just so intense. And McKnight himself is actually hit in the neck, as you see in the film. And they tried a movement from the K4 traffic circle, which they’d also mentioned in the film. But that particular area, as the 10th Mountain Division found out, it was like running a gauntlet. They would have taken even more casualties if they continued to try and push towards the crash site. So, listening to more of that radio traffic going back and forth from the JOC to the C2 burn, McKnight continues to cause– this really causes issues for his convoy getting around. They’re completely lost at this point. And it goes to the point where you hear the transmission, “K55, stop giving directions.” And for a second, you’re talking to the wrong convoy. So, that’s really how badly things are deteriorating. It’s also important to remember that I.D.’s forces were quite effective in positioning, again, as I mentioned, the roadblocks for both Super 6-1 and Super 6-4. I.D. wants to trap the Americans inside the city and not allow any rescue attempts from the outside. And again, it’s– most of the prisoners that they capture, the 20 or so prisoners, are either shot or killed on the way back from their own men. They’re only shot in the back of these trucks as they’re trying to get through the city. So, a lot of these guys they capture in the initial stages of the operation, they don’t make it. [end]

Dan LeFebvre
>> Wow. I think we do see a little bit here. At this point, we see some of those blockades that you were talking about, like, as they’re trying to navigate down the road. They’re like, “Oh, can’t go that way. Nope. Can’t go that way. We have to go almost all the way around the city.” And it just — I’m thinking of, you know, nowadays when I’m navigating, you know, with GPS, it’s like, “Turn right,” you know? But you have — if you just throw that delay and then also streets that you’re not familiar with, some of them are blocked, and then you’re being shot at the whole time. It’s just chaos, I can imagine.

Joshua Donohue
And it really makes you go back to that conversation where McKnight tells Harold and Matthews, “Life’s imperfect for you to circle it above it at 500 feet.” And it’s, again, one of those things where, you know, they just didn’t have that familiarity with the city. Again, the Somalis knew exactly where to pinpoint those roadblocks, where to go, which alleyways, which streets led to where, using those tire fires to get people to those areas as quickly as possible. So, they–credit to them, they really knew how to effectively trap the Americans because, again, this is playing right into the hands of Muhammad Farid Deed’s goal, is to trap the Americans in the city because they know they’re not going to leave their fellow soldiers behind.

Dan LeFebvre
>> Well, you mentioned the 10th Mountain, and if we return to the movie’s timeline, with things going from bad to worse, General Garrison makes the decision to call the 10th Mountain Division with the UN tanks, APCs, whatever it takes to get the stranded soldiers out of there. But the catch, according to the movie, is that the UN doesn’t know anything about this mission. It seems like the mission was kept secret from the UN troops nearby, and that’s why, at least according to the movie, when they talk about how it’ll take a couple hours at least to mobilize the 10th Mountain and 100 vehicles, since they didn’t know about this mission, so they weren’t really prepared for it, of course, General Garrison says they don’t have that long. But the movie doesn’t really talk much about the 10th Mountain’s preparation and role in the American soldiers being rescued. Does the movie do a good job of showing how and when the 10th Mountain got involved?

Joshua Donohue
Well, that’s probably the one part where I might have to push it into why I gave it the A-, because the 10th Mountain

Dan LeFebvre
[ Laughter ]

Joshua Donohue
had a really prominent role in the battle, and there’s actually quite a bit more to the story as far as the 10th Mountain’s division in the battle. They are based out of Fort Drum, New York. They are deployed alongside the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force out of Camp Pendleton, California, when George H.W. Bush authorizes the deployment of Somalia in December of 1992. So the actions of what’s known as Task Force 214 during the Battle of Mogadishu in this time period, shortly after the murders of the Pakistani peacekeepers, the 2nd Battalion, 14th Infantry, serves as– as I mentioned earlier, the quick reaction force, QRF. So the 10th Mountain had engaged with IDID’s militiamen and firefights on numerous occasions leading up to the battle. They had been really a liaison to Brigadier General Craig Nixon from Task Force Ranger. So he had helped coordinate operations between the 10th Mountain and Task Force Ranger. So QRF units are sent to respond to any needs of the UN mission, conducting raids, helping security down aircraft. So 214 was supposed to come to the aid of the Rangers and Deltas when Super 6-1 was shot down. They came–they drove from the airfield in an area, as I mentioned, known as the K4 Traffic Circle, where they see a group of Rangers in another column approaching from the opposite direction. So as the Ranger convoy and the other elements from the 10th hit the K4 Traffic Circle, they’re attacked immediately by Somali gunmen. So the convoy of the 10th Mountain gets to National Street where the right turn into there is cut off by a roadblock. They proceed north to a milk factory, which is completely blocked off and surrounded by flames. They then had to turn around and reassemble, and they didn’t have the equipment to break through these barriers. They had to turn and run back through the hail of fire the opposite way. So the 10th Mountain divisions then ordered to link up with a few of the Malaysian mechanized infantry companies and pick up a couple of Pakistani tank platoons at the new port, which is located just outside of the city. So it did, as you mentioned, take quite a bit of time to coordinate with the other tanks, the APC commanders, letting everyone know what the plan is. So they decide to take the route through the city staging area to avoid the chaos of the KFOR traffic circle. So they move into the city or turn onto National Street, which literally puts them in an area between both crash sites. So they commandeer these white armored vehicles that have giant UN on the side of them. So nothing like a giant target, especially when it’s dark out. These white vehicles stand out against the darkness. Because Ewan McGregor’s got that thing where he says these things are bullet-magnets, and that’s the truth. And so they’re going to have to fight, again, in these white vehicles standing out in the darkness. So they’re getting hit on all sides. They’re getting hit with RPGs. So Alpha Company has to dismount their vehicles during this firefight, and that’s when the 10th will lose a prior first-class James Martin, and he will be hit in the fight. They’ll also lose Sergeant Cornell Houston, who was wounded in the chest by gunfire and dies a couple of days later. So Lieutenant Colonel Lee Van Arsdale, a Delta leader who is on the ground, began to organize an exfil from the crash site. Once Wolcott’s body is pulled out of Super 6-1, he then puts the 10th in the lead. He describes this pretty well, that he felt that they, the QRF, should be the element that leads everyone out of the city. He also praises the company commander, Captain Drew Marovitch, and First Sergeant David Meena. Delta operators would be directly behind the 10th, and the Rangers would be the very last out of the city, as we’ll find out later on.

Dan LeFebvre
>> The way that the movie seems to portray it, I guess I understand you’re knocking it from A to A minus here, but it seems like there’s so much more there, but the movie is focusing more on what’s happening there in the city and not so much, you know, all of this preparation outside of it. But was the movie correct to suggest that they didn’t know anything that was going on? So, I mean, the impression I got, I guess, from the movie was you have these helicopters that crashed, but then there also just happened to be all of these troops over here that were completely oblivious to it and didn’t know anything about what was going on.

Joshua Donohue
And there is definitely truth to that, because, and they talk about it, how you get the sense in the film, when Captain Steele opens the door, and they tell people, “Kate, you’re going to have to go up on the roof.” And it’s like, “I’m not going up on the roof. Are you kidding me?” And they already have so many dead and wounded, they’re literally stacking them on top of these vehicles, that there’s no room on the inside. I mean, they had just barely enough space to get these men out. So, there’s that hesitancy that you sense from the Pakistani and Malaysian contingent of the forces there. And the other thing to note is, a lot of the, I think this was one of the, it may have been Eversman or one of the other, maybe Craig Nixon mentioned this, but there wasn’t, they kind of give you the sense that there wasn’t that fighting spirit in their Pakistani counterparts, that they say that a typical patrol mission for one of the, either the Pakistani peacekeepers or the armored crews, they would go out on a convoy, go maybe a few miles down the road to an area where they would think dangerous, turn right back around and come back, and that was the mission. So, that was about the extent of the mission from that standpoint. So, there was a bit of confusion and delay going on, saying, “Okay, we have to get these forces into the city right now. There can’t be any hesitation. Lives are at stake.” So, the film definitely does give you an accurate depiction of what goes on. They’re assembling inside of a Pakistani soccer stadium. So, that’s really where the rendezvous point is, or the staging area, I should say, where they’re going to channel all this armor, all the convoy that’s going to blast their way into the city and get everybody out.

Dan LeFebvre
Well, speaking of, at the very end of the movie, we do see the 10th Mountain extracting the American soldiers. We see Sergeant McKnight, who made the decision to go back. He was back at the camp, but then he ends up deciding to go back with them to try to get everybody out. Unfortunately, as you alluded to, the APCs and vehicles fill up fast with the wounded, so there’s not enough room for everybody. So we see some of the soldiers actually forced to run alongside the vehicles, and it doesn’t take long in the movie. It seems in the movie it’s like they’re just — like the vehicles are trying to get out of there as fast as they can, and it doesn’t take long for these guys who are running along beside — they can’t run as fast, so they have to fight their way back to the base almost. And then the movie seems to imply that everybody has returned to base, but then at the very final scene — you mentioned him earlier, the character of Hoot, Eric Bannis’ character — he mentions that he’s going back out. There’s still more men out there, so he’s going to go back out with another team, but we never really get to see that because the movie comes to an end. So how well does the movie do showing this extraction, and then were there really soldiers out there like the movie seemed to imply at the end?

Joshua Donohue
Yeah, yeah, there was. The soldiers who had to literally run out of the city, and it’s been… The one thing I was looking more into, that’s called the Mogadishu Mile. Even given the term, which was a running out of the city, it’s been sort of… I’ve heard different accounts of it. Kenny Thomas has a pretty good description of it, saying basically, “We were trying to get… All of a sudden, the vehicles just took off, and we were basically out in the open.” And that’s really what you see depicted in the film. So, the rescue convoy launched multinational forces between 12 and 1 o’clock in the morning. They come under intense fire, as I mentioned, coming down national. They get to the trapped men. The volume of the fire was preventing them from being reached, and the dead were being stacked on top of the vehicles, the wounded inside. They were still trying to get Cliff Walcott’s body out of Super 6-1 at the time. It was nearly 6 o’clock in the morning on October 4, 1993, as the last of the convoy begins to depart to the Pakistani soccer stadium. And as I mentioned, Paulson, one of the gunners in the convoy, also Jeff Strucker, they were leaving, and he’s saying to them, “Hey, I got some guys running behind us.” And Strucker’s response was, “Okay, shoot them.” And Paulson says, “No, I think there are guys.” And sure enough, they were. So, as I mentioned, the Mogadishu Mile, where the Rangers and, as you see, also Delta Force guys are having to run out of the city being fired on from all directions. So when they get to the Pakistani stadium, the scene of what you see is indescribable. The dead and the wounded are just laid out in the open. Bodies are just everywhere. And the adrenaline is effectively worn off from them getting out of the city. But yeah, there are still men trapped in the city, and there will be more men who will go in. I’ll mention Matt Ryerson again. He’s one of them. And again, as I mentioned, he’s the very last of the men who die during the battle. He dies a few days after the battle from a mortar round that strikes and wounds a number of other people. He dies not too long after that. So really from the time that the helicopters were shot down, the time they got out of the city, it is a nightmare having to get in and out of that and having to go to not one, but two crash sites. And as I mentioned, to kind of bring Super Six Four back into the picture, by the time they reach Super Six Four’s crash site, they find nothing. They find pools of blood, spent ammunition shells, no guns, no bodies. Everything is gone. And you see in the helicopter, it’s not a Hooten they show arrives. It’s not him. I think it’s a number of 10th Mountain guys get there, and I believe some of the Deltas will be there at some point as well. They will be in charge of placing thermite on the helicopter to basically destroy any sensitive equipment that might fall into enemy hands. That’s part of the mission as well of any down helicopter. Take Operation Neptune Spear, which is the mission to get Osama bin Laden. If you recall, they use these two stealth Black Hawks, as depicted in the film Zero Dark Thirty, and one of them crashes on the edge of the wall outside of the Abbottabad compound where bin Laden is inside. They have to destroy that helicopter, especially no one even knows that this thing exists, and obviously everyone finds out about it in the days after. That was part of the procedure is they have to destroy the helicopter, but they get everyone out of Super Six One, but they know and they’re well aware that the crew of Super Six One, there’s no sign of anyone. They immediately send up helicopters that night and the next morning calling on a loudspeaker, “Mike Durant, Ray Frank, Bill Cleveland, we’re not leaving you behind,” and you hear that when Durant is captured as well. Yeah, you know, I go back to a moment in the film that occurs when Jeff Strucker’s convoy first gets back with Dominic Pilla’s body and Todd Blackburn in the back of the other Humvee. And there’s a moment, and this really did happen as they show in the film, where Strucker gets out and Hooton is there. They are trying to regather themselves, get more ammunition. There’s a scene where Dale Sizemore has the cast on his arm. He goes to cut it off. He goes, “Okay, okay, okay. Go get your cape out. You can come with us.”

Dan LeFebvre
[laughter] [laughter] No hesitation whatsoever.

Joshua Donohue
That, no hesitation, and which also did happen as well. So that’s the kind of spirit that Yeah.

Dan LeFebvre
Wow.

Joshua Donohue
you’re seeing. Another part of that scene is quite poignant as well, where Strucker comes up to one of the Rangers. It’s Brad Thomas, and he says, “I can’t go back out there again.” He goes, “Listen, it’s what you do right now that makes a difference.” And again, who can blame Thomas? I mean, these guys are going, this is the first combat that these guys have ever experienced, and it’s going to affect people in different ways. I can’t imagine, I’m sure Thomas, he was probably the one that just vocalized exactly how everyone was feeling at the time. “Oh my God, I may not live through this. If I go back into that city and it is where I just came from, it’s going to be worse.” And you’re seeing these guys, Delta guys being killed, the Rangers being killed, the pilots and whatnot. I think it’s fair game. They’re not just going to, someone’s going to hesitate to see a Raider. They are there to kill you. So there’s that moment where Strucker tells Thomas what you do makes a difference. And he gets back in the Humvee, and he distinctly recalls looking in the mirror, as you see in the film, Thomas kind of hesitates, puts his K-Pod back on, grabs his rifle, and gets right back in the Humvee, and he kind of shakes his head. So again, it’s not to bring up any kind of cowardice in any way. Who could blame them? This was something that they had never experienced before. And you also get the sense that these guys know how desperate the situation is. They’re going to go in, and no matter how long it takes, they’re going to get the very, every single person is going to come out of that city one way or the other. As far as the conversation between Eversman and Hooton, a little bit of poetic license there. I think that kind of gives a little bit of a summary of, “This is why we’re doing this.” But I think it also drives home that point as well. And another good, again, this is probably creative license as well, is you have that earlier exchange with the two of them before they go. And he goes, “You don’t think we should be here?” And he goes, that whole thing, once that first bullet goes past your head, politics and all that shit goes right out the window. So there’s this bit of the sense you get from the Ranger element to the Delta element. And I think that’s probably true on some levels, that these Delta guys are just, they’re elite. We’re the cream of the crop, we’re the elite guys of the US Army. And the Rangers, obviously, they’re not an elite unit per se. They’re the cream of the crop as far as the summary for the Ranger. Rangers are the same ones that were scaling the cliffs to point to Hock on Normandy on June 6th, 1944. So Rangers have a pretty proud past and the whole Rangers lead the way all the way, that they’re all bonded together in that situation. I think you start, really Scott gives you that sense that this is why. We will risk our lives to go in, whether we know these guys are alive or dead. If there are people in that city, we are not going to quit until the very last one brought out. Exactly. Yeah, I think that it, as far as I’m concerned, I think that’s the way it’s going to be. As far as the competition element goes, it’s really there from the outset. And once you see the more elite groups emerge within the US military, like Delta Force, of course the Navy with the Navy SEALs, the Green Berets and so on. And even before that, you have competition between just the branches, between the Army versus Navy, Army versus Marines. Competition, oh yeah, it plays out on the athletic fields and on basketball courts You have that on the football field too. I mean, oh yeah. everywhere. Yeah. So there’s always that competitive element. And I think competition is what drives and defines this country in a lot of ways. And especially within the military, it’s even to a higher degree. So the young Rangers naturally looked up to the older Delta operators who exuded this sort of irreverent air of any Army norms. And you see that where with Hooton in the hangar where he’s saying, “Oh no, the Delta Safari? Well, not if General Garrison is asking basically, right? The whole, this is my safety, sir, and all that.” So Delta were strongly encouraged individual initiative. Rank was largely shunned and really with deference to only with the most experienced. This did not really sit well with the Rangers and their company commander, Mike Steele, who by all accounts, who was a really die in the wall Army traditionalist. He saw this as a negative and did the utmost that he could to keep the two units separate. And really he was fearful of any influence of the Delta operators. So the Ranger captain was by all accounts, from what I could tell, a divisive figure in a lot of ways. He actually tried to stop the training sessions that involved Deltas, which wouldn’t really would have helped the Rangers in the battle. And it got to the point where the Rangers would sneak out after dark and attend secret training missions with the Delta operators. So Ranger Kenny Thomas gave his own account of the issues between Steele and some of the members of Delta. Perhaps strikes at the heart of the issue. We quoted Steele as telling him, “It’s not Steele dislike the men of Delta. He believed them to be undisciplined cowboys as the film portrayed. He felt that their methods were quote unquote, not our methods.” In the movie they mention that once the bullet goes by, you know, politics are out the window. Yeah. And from the time the mission launched, each individual soldier knows what he or she But to some degree too, I mean, you still have chain of command and you still have all these structures that still need to be in place.

Dan LeFebvre
But also sometimes you got to do what you got to do to get out of this situation where it’s literally life or death.

Joshua Donohue
has to do, where they have to go. When Super 6-1 went down, it didn’t matter if you’re a Ranger or a Delta or a 10th Mountain, a Navy SEAL, Air Force pararescue, they were all performing their assignments under extremely difficult conditions. And everyone is on the same page when lives are at stake and the military follows again, that creed of no one gets left behind. So the word competition seemingly disappears under these circumstances. And it’s about helping the soldier next to you and bless those medics. They never get the attention that they deserve. Guys like Kurt Schmidt, who feverishly tried to save Corporal Jamie Smith’s life, who he would eventually die from his injury. Or Private Mark Good from 3rd Ranger Battalion, who was the first medic to get to Todd Blackburn when he missed the rope and fell from the Black Hawk. And then I mentioned Delta Sergeant First Class Paul Howe and that three-hour documentary he did about his experience in the military and his time in Somalia. He brings up something interesting. He talks about how training aspects or SOPs or standard operating procedures that the Deltas and the Rangers should have been sort of honing was undermined by the actions of Captain Steele. And he actually calls Steele a rogue captain and arrogant, and that he wanted to do things his own way. And he goes on to say that his chain of command should have reeled him in. And during an after action rehearsal, Steele was told by an E7 about the mission problems, but Steele felt that it should have been handled by officers. Howe then describes how his team were attempting to explain to Steele about the mission, which Steele replies, “Mind your own business, we’ll mind ours.” So in Howe’s opinion, he believes that Steele should have been handled by Howe’s chain of command, but failed to do so. So it also does explain this tension between the Steele character played by Jason Isaacs and the Sanderson character played by William Fechner. So the Sanderson character, as I mentioned, is based on Howe. And the two scenes in particular that are striking, the first is when we see Sanderson conferring with Steele and McKnight as the prisoners are being loaded once before Super 6-1 goes down. Steele asks Sanderson if he’s receiving the order, and Sanderson’s kind of like looking off, not even really paying attention. He goes, “Yeah, I heard you. We should be getting out of here soon.” So you detect that there’s some tension right off the bat. And I think there is some deafened credibility to that. So Sanderson, the other scene is where Sanderson defies Steele’s order to get men into the building and he’s yelling, “What the F are you doing out there?” And he goes, “We got to get people to that crash site.” Howe said that this did somewhat happen during the battle and saying that Steele was saying that Howe had really left him behind. So what’s interesting, because after watching Howe’s assessment of Steele as a combat leader, you can see why there’s this tension between how it plays out on the film itself. So this really did exist. So I think even back to the scene where they’re in the hangar and they’re roasting the wild boar, the whole, the Hooten says, “This is my safety, sir.” It did happen, but not in the same sort of context. It was a little bit more drawn out of a conversation that wasn’t as that whole, that they show. But it does have some truth to it. So Howe even says that Steele should have even brought up on UCMJ and thrown out of the military completely. You were from code of military justice and brought up on court martial. Pretty intense feelings there. So he then talks about McKnight, saying he wasn’t counseled properly, which led to the disconnect that you see. So in many ways, I get a lot of Howe’s points. It does seem to be a bit of a Monday morning quarterback thing where he’s kind of grand stings saying, “Well, the Rangers are here, Delta’s here. And if he did it Delta’s way, things would have been different.” So it’s a bit self-serving, but it also reveals quite a bit. And you can tell that a lot of those deeper interactions that did indeed happen play out in the film. [AUDIO OUT] Yeah. And I wanted to mention also earlier too is one of the main impetuses of getting more special forces is what happens during Operation Eagle Claw in 1980. Paul Howe’s daughter is a man named Chargent Charlie Beckwith, his daughter. He married Beckwith’s daughter. We did the We Were Soldiers thing. Beckwith actually interacts with Joe Galloway and is a part of the special forces base there. So Beckwith is part of the planning, the operational planning for Operation Eagle Claw. Eagle Claw is the mission, a special forces mission that’s organized to try and rescue the US hostages being held in Iran. So this mission fails. There are C-130s involved. One of the helicopters crashes into the planes on the ground. It gets caught in a sandstorm at one point. Five of the helicopters are not operational. So the mission is called off. And then this horrible accident happens. Eight people are killed, the eight Marines and some airmen are killed as well. So the failure of that mission, Eagle Claw in 1980s, right at the end of President Jimmy Carter’s presidency, that is a pretty big wake up call saying, you know what, let’s really refocus our energies on how the lessons from the loss, the tragedy of that mission, what are we going to learn from those lessons and how are we going to apply them to future special operations missions in the future? So that particular mission, the failure of that mission is really what drives the reconditioning, I would say, of Delta Force and the SEALs and all those types of special operations.

Dan LeFebvre
Well, thank you so much for coming on to chat about Blackhawk Down.

Joshua Donohue
Yeah, so I was just in touch with the editor and my article about Everfield is an aspect I believe the last time we talked, you were working on a new article.

Dan LeFebvre
So before I let you go, can you give us an update on what you’ve been working on recently?

Joshua Donohue
of the Pearl Harbor attack that’s a little bit less known about. That’ll be coming out probably towards the end of the year in World War II magazine. Also relaunched my YouTube page at the Freelance Historian. So I plan on doing some big things there probably coming up over the next couple of months. So I’m just kind of doing some odds and ends, some history stuff here and there on there. So I’ve got that going on. And I’ll also be doing a podcast on World War II TV with Paul Woodage, who’s a great historian. He’s based out of France and I’ll be talking about the 70th Infantry Division, March 15th, that’ll be at 2 p.m. So I’ll be doing that. And I also have a book that I contributed to that I wanted to mention. It’s called Son of Wake Island. And it’s sonofwakeisland.com. It’s the second volume of that book as I contributed to the forwarded bunch of photographs that have rare, never been seen before. And I wrote some other stuff in there as well. So that same author, that I’m also working on some other stuff with. We’re collaborating on a new book that’s probably going to come out over the next year or two.

Dan LeFebvre
Fantastic. Well, make sure to add links to those in the show notes Absolutely. Thank you so much. so people can check them out. Thanks again so much for your time.

Joshua Donohue
Thank you. [end]

Dan LeFebvre  03:05

As we always do here, on based on a true story. Let’s kick this off with an overall historical letter grade. What grade does The Bridge on the River Kwai get for historical accuracy?

Jon Parshall  03:17

D, maybe, maybe a C minus, if you’re lucky, I mean, yes, there was a bridge on a different river that got blown up by airplanes much later, you know. But that’s, that’s about as far as you can go. And, you know, if you’re like, one of these real world war two gearhead kind of people, you know, you’re gonna look at this thing gonna say, Oh, come on, the Japanese Okay, yeah, they’re in Japanese uniforms, but they’re using British Lee Enfield rifles and Vickers 303, machine guns inside, you know, British lorries. You know, there’s not a lot of a lot of capital being expended here on on realistic kit and equipment and that kind of thing.

Dan LeFebvre  04:05

You talk about there was a bridge that got destroyed, I feel like that happened a lot in World War II.

Jon Parshall  04:13

And the really, the really funny thing is, okay, so the author of this book, Pierre Boulle, who’s a French guy who was actually in what is now Vietnam during the war, and was collaborating with the Japanese because they were running that place too, you know, he heard about this bridge being built on a place called the river Kauai. But the actual bridge is not on the river Kauai. It was on a river at the time that was called the meikong, which was close to the river Kwai. And so what ends up happening, actually, is that this movie is so successful, it comes out in 57 and it’s just a global phenom, right? And so the Thai government ends up renaming the river in 1960 Oh, so that the 20. Tourists can find it. So that’s a whole thing, you know, try and nail down what actually was the name of the river at that time. But yes, the bridge that we’re talking about is actually still there. It was not a wooden structure. Well, there was an original wooden structure that was then replaced by a concrete and steel structure. It was blown up, but the concrete and steel bridge is now still in that location. So there you go. Well,

Dan LeFebvre  05:28

you mentioned the author, Pierre Boulle. The movie’s based on a novel, so I’m gonna just guess that a lot of the main characters are fictional people. I’m sure we’ll talk more about them throughout this episode, but I’m thinking of like commander shears, major Warden, of course, Colonel Saito and Colonel Nicholson. Are they fictional people? Then,

Jon Parshall  05:45

by and large, yes, there, but there are some interesting sort of nuggets here, and that there were some kind of analogs to real life guys in the movie. So our colonel Nicholson here. There actually was a British colonel of senior officer on this project. Was a guy named Tuesday, and so he’s real the camp in question. There was an actual guy named Saito there, but he was a sergeant, and he was actually one of the more compassionate Japanese guards in the camp, which is kind of weird, because compassion and Japanese guards didn’t often go well together during this war. And then one of our four commandos in this movie is a guy named Chapman, and we’re going to talk about him a little bit later on, but it’s interesting because in the novel, it’s a three person commando team, and there is no Chapman. But this Chapman dude gets added to the screenplay in the 50s, because the real life Chapman was actually a very famous British commando during the war, and we can talk about him later at

Dan LeFebvre  06:58

the beginning of the movie, we would kind of get introduced to the whole plot with Colonel Nicholson and his men arrive at the Japanese POW camp called Camp 16, that’s run by the Japanese Commander, Colonel Saito. That camp, according to the movie, Camp 16, is there were some prisoners already there, but then on arrival of these new prisoners, Colonel Saito explains that there’s no need for barbed wire or watchtowers at the camp because they’re on an island in the jungle. Escape is impossible because they die in the jungle even if they leave. So the purpose for being way out in the middle of nowhere, according to the movie, is to build this bridge that we talked about in the River Kwai connects Bangkok to Rangoon, according to the movie. And I’m sure we’ll talk a lot more about the details in a moment. But can you unravel just kind of overall, how this plot actually, how much of this actually happened?

Jon Parshall  07:44

Okay, so let’s do a crash course in the early part of World War Two. Okay, so the the initial Japanese campaign that happens right at the same time at Pearl Harbor, the Japanese invade Malaya, and they begin moving down the Malayan peninsula to capture the critical bridge Port of Singapore. That’s the prize of this whole thing, and and they they do that. It’s a total curb stop of a campaign. They just route the British and at the end of that campaign, then on February 15, Singapore falls, and it is one of the most catastrophic British defeats in their history, something like 160,000 POWs go into captivity. The majority of them are Indian. But there are a lot of British troops, Australian troops as well. And at the same time, even as the Malayan campaign is unraveling, the Japanese then invade Burma as well, because Burma is right up next to India. India is the biggest, most important colony in the British Empire, and the Japanese do exactly the same thing to the British forces in Burma as well. They route them, drive them out by about april of 1942 so now you’ve got the situation where the Japanese have got three or four divisions in Burma, and they need to keep them in supply. And instead of wanting to sail ships all the way around the tip of the Malayan Peninsula and then up the coast to Rangoon, which is exposed to British air attack and submarine attack, gee, wouldn’t it be nice if instead, we could just sail our ships to Bangkok in Thailand, unload our stuff, put it on a train, and run that train over to Rangoon. Great. The only problem is that you’ve got about 200 miles worth of absolutely virgin jungle here with not a road or anything in sight. So they got to build this 200 mile long railroad. So what they end up doing is they start working from both ends, you know, west to east from Burma and then east to west from Thailand and Malaya. And they end up rounding up about 200,000 indigenous laborers to work on this railroad, both. Burmese and Thai and Malayan. And then they also bring in about 60,000 Allied POWs. Again, the majority of them are British, a lot of Australians. There are some Dutch who were captured in Java and Sumatra and places like that, who are also put to work. And there are smattering of Americans who were either captured from the cruiser Houston, which our guy here is supposedly a member of that’s legit. That’s true. And there were also some American troops in Java, some but any aircraft and artillery guys that get captured, and all those dudes end up on this railroad, and it’s horrific. So of those 200,000 indigenous laborers that are going to work on this thing, about half of them die. Okay, it’s horrible. It’s horrible, and the POWs do better. Only one in five of them die, but you end up within about 13,000 dead Allied POWs and around 90,000 dead civilians, which means that over the course of this railroad, it cost about 350 to 400 dead for every mile or a grave about every 15 feet. So that’s sort of the backdrop to this thing. It is. It’s a horror show. It’s disease mostly that gets rid of these people. You had these massive cholera outbreaks in the camps because there isn’t adequate sanitation, and it just mows people down. So malaria, dengue, fever, tick, typhus, cholera, all of the maladies of the jungle are preying on these people. So to Saito’s comment that, you know, I don’t need, you know, watchtowers and that kind of stuff, there’s a certain element of truth in that there were guards, obviously, but they didn’t have to invest the same sort of human capital in guarding these camps, particularly the ones that are way out in the jungle there. Because, yeah, if you escape, what are you gonna do? Do you know enough to get food and water and that sort of thing? That’s not a trivial problem. That really

Dan LeFebvre  12:10

puts it in perspective of just the lies lost in order for, I mean, which I’m sure they didn’t care about net. I mean, that’s they knew it. They knew it was gonna happen.

Jon Parshall  12:21

Wow, and that’s important to keep in mind, too, there, there. This is actually one of the more benign railroad projects that the Japanese undertake during this war. There are a couple others that happened down in Sumatra and Java that are almost 100% indigenous labor, and the the cost per mile are even higher, which is, is almost incomprehensible. But from the Japanese perspective, their supply of labor is unlimited, and so they don’t care about these people. You know, it’s amazing what you can accomplish when you you know, I’ll just throw human death and suffering at it until it’s done. You know, I just, I don’t, I don’t really care. And so they had no incentives to take care of these labors. They knew they could just go to Rangoon or wherever and just impress another gang of local laborers, and I’ll just refresh the crop. I just don’t care, which

Dan LeFebvre  13:12

probably just added even more to it. Like you’re talking about the illness being one of the main things that killed like, well, if you’re not going to take care of them, that because you are just replacing them, then not going to invest in hospitals or things like that, you know, sick days and things like that. That’s

Jon Parshall  13:30

exactly right. And so the interesting thing here, though, is the reason that the pow casualties were actually lower than the civilian casualties is because these military units maintained discipline sufficiently that they could tell the men, okay, we’re building latrines over there. You must use the latrines, you know. So there was, there was still discipline and order in the military camps, whereas the civilians didn’t have anybody telling them how to take care of themselves in the face of a cholera outbreak, and so they just died like flies.

Dan LeFebvre  14:05

Going back to the movie, when Saito tells Nicholson that even the officers have to work on the bridge, we see Nicholson pulling out a copy of the Geneva Convention. He points Saito to Article 27 it says officers aren’t supposed to do manual labor. Saito doesn’t care. His orders are to finish the bridge by May 12. So he says, all the prisoners will work. Nicholson refuses, and even goes so far as to put in a little box they call the oven. And when that punishment doesn’t work, Saito tries to bribe Nicholson with a nice dinner of English corned beef. But Nicholson still refuses, and he even gets to the point of Saito or he’s actually threatening Saito of reporting him, although he doesn’t really say in the movie who he’s going to report him to he’s the prisoner here, or how he managed to do that. Do we know of any situations like this, where the British officer tried to hold the Japanese officer to the Geneva Convention? I

Jon Parshall  14:54

am not aware of any, and I cannot imagine that. That would have been six. Successful, among other things. It’s really the history here is super convoluted, but in a nutshell, the Japanese they signed certain articles of the second Geneva Convention, but they didn’t ratify them by their own government, and so they weren’t they were not really legally held to those agreements they did announce in 1942 that, yes, we will adhere to them, but that was all a bunch of baloney. I mean, they they flagrantly did not hold to those conditions throughout the war anywhere. There was a famous incident during the Malayan campaign where a group of British and Australian wounded get left behind by a bridge called the parrot Sulong bridge, and the Japanese captured them there and killed them all, you know, 145 wounded POWs, and they just, you know, burned them and shot them and did whatever they did. So the Japanese, you know, the notion of being held to, uh, a Western document telling us how to make war when we have defeated you is just laughable to the Japanese. They’re not going to adhere to that at all. Yeah,

Dan LeFebvre  16:14

when I saw, I mean, I don’t, don’t know the history there, but when I saw that in the movie again, just watching it again. And I was just like, article really, like he even pulled it out, like he brings it with him, you know.

Jon Parshall  16:30

Sorry, no, wow, yeah, it would take a pretty ballsy, uh, British officer to do that. And again, we should. We should contrast that with the real life British colonel, this Tuesday guy. He did not collaborate with the Japanese. In fact, when this movie comes out, there are a lot of British veterans who was just like, What the what? You know, you’re portraying our beloved Colonel to z as a collaborator. And he was not too Z was actively and subtly trying to sabotage this bridge. With every opportunity that he had, they would do things like surreptitiously gather termites and try to put them on the bridge pilings and stuff like that to weaken the structure. Um And toosie was a real Gent. When he finally gets rescued at the end of the war, he weighs, I don’t know, 90 pounds or something like that. They’re like, Okay, we’re gonna evacuate you down to Singapore. He’s like, No, you’re not. We’re going out into the jungle now, and we’re gonna make sure that all of the POW camps are liberated. And I’m not gonna be relieved until I know that all of the men are safe. So, yeah, he was a very upright stand up guy. And you can understand why there would be some tension here between the POWs and, you know, the real life POWs and the portrayal of the British colonel in the movie as being, you know, willing to work with the Japanese. They didn’t like that at all

Dan LeFebvre  18:04

right, around this point in the movie, was something I know you wanted to chat about, when Saito is about to murder Nicholson and his officers for refusing to work. So let me play that Clip real Quick here. Yeah,

Dan LeFebvre  19:00

I obviously want to ask you about that, but even what you had just talked about, you know, with the civilians that died and everything like that. I can already tell that this is, is this your code, right? I mean, yeah, yeah, it’s

Jon Parshall  19:27

our code. This is what we do. This is how we roll. And the notion that, oh yeah, the witnesses in the hospital saw it, yeah, okay, we’ll kill all them too. We don’t care. We have a limitless supply of labor. We will kill you all, and we will get new laborers if you’re going to be uppity. So don’t get me wrong. I mean, it’s a beautiful scene for a movie, but from a realism standpoint, you know, the notion that a guy like Saito would have even batted an eye at gunning these dudes down, in my opinion, is, is laughable.

Dan LeFebvre  19:58

Yeah, yeah. And. It really plays a lot more into you’re talking about, not even with the soldiers there too, but civilian life and they just their code, code. Didn’t care,

Jon Parshall  20:12

right? But, but, of course, the centerpiece of this whole movie is the developing relationship between Nicholson and Psycho and so you can’t very well, you know, do away with that. You know. The bottom line is that a movie is is telling a story, and unfortunately, this story is, as I say, largely made up. I hope you appreciated to the British truck with the British machine gun.

Dan LeFebvre  20:39

I wouldn’t have pointed, I wouldn’t notice that, but yet, that’s

Jon Parshall  20:43

couldn’t even bother getting ourselves, you know, a Nambu machine gun to put in a truck. I mean, anyway, it’s just all kind of funny, as far as I was concerned,

Dan LeFebvre  20:51

even though Saito said that escape was impossible earlier, we do see an escape happen in the movie. It’s the American shears. He manages to escape. Eventually, he’s helped by local villagers, and that’s the first that we see any locals. But it’s not the last, and we’ll get to when shears comes back with the British commandos later. But when they do that, they meet a local man named Yai. He says he’s helping the British because he hates the Japanese for taking all the men in the village. How realistic would it be for local villagers to help against the Japanese, like we see in the movie?

Jon Parshall  21:21

That happened all the time. Actually, what’s happening throughout the course of this war is that the local economies in this neck of the woods are just falling apart because the Japanese are terrible administrators, and they gave no thought to civil administration before they started this war. This war was a very pickup kind of affair on the part of the Japanese. They had to really hurry up and throw together some plans just to get a military operation put together. Who the hell cares about you know, how we’re going to actually administer these countries after we take them over? So what you see in places like Malaya, for instance, Malaya was the world’s largest rubber exporter, and when the Japanese came in at the end of the campaign, they just plundered about 160,000 tons of rubber from the plantations, and they took it all back to Japan. They didn’t have an auto industry that was big enough to actually utilize that amount of rubber in the first place. That was pretty much the last rubber they ever bought from the Malayan economy. And so now you’ve got all of these. You know, used to be rubber farmers who are now like, where am I getting money? And they have to turn to subsistence farming. And this happens again all over Southeast Asia. The same thing happens in Java, the same thing happens in Burma. All of these economies collapse by, like, more than 50% it’s one of the biggest economic collapses in recorded human history. So you can imagine that. You know, first of all, layer this, this economic malaise in all of these countries, against the backdrop of just continued Japanese cruelty, because these indigenous labors are being shanghaied out of theaters and, you know, grabbed off the streets, in some cases, with their families a you’re gonna work on a railroad now and half of you Are gonna die. You know, word gets out of that kind of stuff. And so very quickly, a lot of the indigenous populations, guys are bastards, and, you know, they’re worse than the, you know, the colonial governments that they replaced. And so yes, in a lot of cases, the it was, it was dicey. You never know. I mean, there were plenty of collaborators too, but there were certainly instances where you had native peoples who were just like, Yeah, this is baloney. And I hate these guys. Something

Dan LeFebvre  23:53

else we see kind of around this point in the movie is, I have another clip for this. It’s the British soldiers as they’re working on the bridge. It kind of looks like a lot of looks like a lot of them are just kind of splashing around in the river. Let me go ahead and pull this clip here,

Jon Parshall  24:12

cheering, cheering. You have a piece of the bridge is just falling down right. Here are boys out in the river.

Jon Parshall  24:38

Right see the soldiers scampering around in the back, around there,

Jon Parshall  24:54

splashing around, swimming, diving in it’s.

Jon Parshall  25:07

Splash, yeah, this is ludicrous, okay, instead, put yourself in the mindset of what it would have been like to have worked on a sugar plantation in the deep south in the 1860s Okay, so there’s a quote from one of the books, the the economic travails in this region at this time. He says, let’s see if I got my notes here. Do to do? To do worker management favored pain incentives rather than ordinary rewards, to a degree extreme by the standards of slave labor, extreme to this already. Wow, yeah. So we, and we have another uh, account by a British survivor, who says it is necessary to note that most of this continual beating was not disciplinary, but was used to drive men as beasts to efforts beyond their strength. So these projects were horrific. These guys were sick, they were undernourished, and, yeah, the Japanese whipped them and beat them with, you know, bamboo canes and, you know, prodding them with bayonets and yada yada yada these. It’s, it’s, you couldn’t put this on a movie screen. What actually happened? You know, no one would be able to tolerate it. You’d walk out of the theater in five minutes because it was just grotesque. You really have to, you know, fast forward to a certain amount of emotional remove, until you get a picture like Schindler’s List or something like that, that even even that sort of obliquely refers to what’s going on. It’s the same thing happening on these on these railroad projects. They’re just, they’re horror shows. And so the notion that, yeah, you’ve got these British troops splash around in the river and, you know, splash fights and that kind of stuff, no way. Man, not at all.

Dan LeFebvre  27:11

I can’t. I can’t even wrap my head around how that would would be. It wouldn’t, it wouldn’t be entertainment like a movie, for

Jon Parshall  27:17

sure, exactly, exactly, yeah, yeah, you can’t make entertainment out of what actually happened there, so you can only sort of allude to it. But yeah, that that scene is completely unrealistic in that respect,

Dan LeFebvre  27:32

according to the movie, even though he was stubborn at first, Nicholson does end up cooperating with the Japanese to build a bridge. Actually, it’s, it’s more than just cooperating because we see a conference, and I have a clip for this too. We have a conference between the British prisoners and the Japanese soldiers, where the British talk about how they’re going to build a proper bridge, and it’s essential that they take pride in their job, referring to the British prisoners. So let me pull up that clip here.

28:02

Yes,

Jon Parshall  28:13

such a great actor. Oh,

Jon Parshall  28:25

okay, so pause it here too. There’s so much to unpack here. Obviously, what we’re doing is we’re we’re casting aspersions on Japanese engineering prowess, which is ludicrous. I mean, the Japanese have been building bridges, you know, all over Asia, in the colonies that they have already, you know, been occupying. They’re very competent engineers. They knew exactly what they’re doing. They can certainly do soil studies. And so this is all being filmed, of course, in the basking afterglow of a victorious, you know, World War victory, when the British are very self congratulatory. And I say, you know, but you know, the notion that the British would have any ability to lecture the Japanese on how to build a bridge is laughable. And furthermore, just the notion of having any sort of a conference like this, where a bunch of, you know, sort of smarmy British officers would sit down with the Japanese and lecture them on more than just take them out and shoot them. It would never have happened. But anyway, that’s,

Dan LeFebvre  29:28

I mean, that is, that is a great point of, I mean, the Japanese, even, I keep comparing in my mind, you know, the the different theaters, you know, you have the European theater with with the Germans, and they had to build bridges too. But the Japanese, especially, you’re working on islands and jungles and I mean, but I can’t remember what they said in the movie just before this little clip here, it was like, Oh yeah, I’ve worked on like, five or six bridges. I know how to do this, like the British guys, right,

Jon Parshall  29:55

right. Well, I mean, the British were good engineers too, but, but as you say, I mean the Japanese. Been in places like Formosa, for instance, and had built great big agricultural irrigation projects there and that sort of thing. I mean, they they were very, very competent and knew what they were doing. That said the route that they end up picking for this particular railroad does go through probably some of the most challenging terrain to make it over the hills and into Burma. They picked a really challenging route to do that, but again, they could do that because I have unlimited labor that I don’t care about, so I’ll just do it. And

Dan LeFebvre  30:39

another point too, I’m curious about because the Japanese would have sent the engineers to do that work, whereas the prisoners are kind of, like they just happen to be there, like they’re not. Don’t necessarily have to be, oh, there happened to be an engineer that worked on bridges here. So you’re talking about, you know, the British were good engineers, but it’s not like the British were sending engineers there. Would the Japanese have known who the British engineers were to send them to these particular camps to help at all?

Jon Parshall  31:07

I really, really doubt. Again, if I’m the Japanese, I’m just like, Yeah, I’ve got 60,000 units of meat here. You know, I need 2000 units at this place. And you know, I don’t care what you do. You’re, you’re a defeated English soldier, and you have no honor. And I don’t want to know what you your your job is not to think, for me, your job is to, is to lift that rock over there, shut up and go do that.

Dan LeFebvre  31:33

Even though the movie shows most of the British prisoners going along with Nicholson’s desire to build a proper bridge, there are some who don’t seem to like the idea, and probably the most outspoken of them in the movie is the doctor clipton. There are a lot of times where clipton points out that they’re collaborating with the enemy, but Nicholson says his the men are happier. Morale is improved. In the movie, those conversations usually end up with something along the lines of Nicholas, no, I’m sorry Nicholson saying something like honestly clipped in. There are times when I just don’t understand you at all, and then that’s just the end of it. And I’ve got another clip of that here to Play you.

32:57

So well i

Jon Parshall  33:41

There is so much to unpack In this clip, because there’s a really interesting interweaving of things that are true and things that are imagined on the part of Nicholson, Again, the reason that the military units suffered less cruelly than the civilian laborers is because of the maintenance of military discipline in those units. And so Nicholson is absolutely right that it’s essential to the survival of his men, that they retain this self identity as soldiers, and that we are part of a unit and that we stick together and we help each other. So Nicholson is correct that idle hands are the devil’s workshop in this case, and that just keeping the men busy and doing something and focused on surviving and making it through is super important. That’s all correct. But then you also notice this sort of mirroring, mirroring of his language. He talks about other men not happy. And we had the clip of Saito at the beginning of this movie, saying, be happy in your work. And so you can see the sort of convergence of these two kernels here into this sort of, you know, one meta human being who. Um, the medical officer is absolutely right in saying that this could be construed as collaboration on our part, and we should be trying, by implication, to make sure that this bridge is as crappy as possible, so that it falls apart, so that, you know, the Japanese can’t use it to resupply their forces. That’s legit, too. And the other thing at the very end, when, when Nicholson is talking about, you know, one day the wall will be over. And I want the people who live here to remember who built this bridge, because we the British, want to come back and reclaim all of our lost colonies. That’s sort of an underlying subtext here too that, and the only way that we can do that is by establishing a sort of moral superiority of the British soldier. What Nicholson doesn’t realize, and that the movie won’t acknowledge, even though that was made in 1957 is that by having lost the campaigns in Malaya and Burma as disastrously as the British did, and in the case of the Burma campaign, there were a lot of civilian casualties as well, that the British have permanently ceded any sort of moral superiority in this neck of the woods and the the indigenous populations are never going to allow the British to reassume colonial control for any extend period of time. So that’s all a pipe dream, as far as as that’s concerned. Anyway, I just found this as a really interesting clip, because there is a lot of tension there. Nicholson does have to keep his men on. I want to say under control is, you know, the nature of it, but as a cohesive military unit that is very, very important. It’s just that the way he’s doing that is kind of dubious in terms of collaborating with the enemy.

Dan LeFebvre  36:54

When I watch this movie, I can’t help but compare the, you know, the Japanese prisoner camps, to what we see in a movie like The Great Escape, where it’s a similar concept of the prisoners have to keep themselves busy and their morale up, and they do things like, you know, learning about birds. And, of course, they’re building these tunnels too, but like, like, they’re doing things that are not helping the enemy, but they’re trying to keep their minds, you know, going which makes sense, so I can understand it from that point

Jon Parshall  37:23

of view, absolutely. So anyway, yeah, it’s a really interesting passage there. And just the tension between these two guys and they they both embody, you know, correct tendencies in terms of military officers and clipton. Clipton knows more about the army than Nicholson thinks he does so anyway, honestly,

Dan LeFebvre  37:43

Clifton, I just don’t think I understand you,

Jon Parshall  37:47

though. Yeah, he’s such he was such a great actor, too. Oh my God, just it’s a wonderful performance. Anyway, circling

Dan LeFebvre  37:53

back to the shears, character who escapes in the movie, he ends up back in Ceylon, or modern day Sri Lanka, that’s where shears gets recruited by a team of British commandos called force 316 the commanding officer of force 316 is major warden. And through a discussion with spears, we find out that shears was never a commander. He admits to being a swab jockey on the Houston, which I believe is slaying for a petty officer. Second Class swab jockey

Jon Parshall  38:18

is anybody who pushes a mop that and so, I mean shears very well could have been an enlisted man. Yeah, you know, who knows. But he’s obviously very bright and and, you know, clever and adaptable, and has managed to figure out how to survive in this sort of, you know, Lord of the Flies environment that he finds himself in. I do find it questionable, you know, he says he put on the uniform of an officer hoping they would get him better treatment. I don’t really see that as a ticket to the cushy life under the hands of the Japanese. Again, the Japanese, you’re a meat unit. I don’t care what you are, you know, and you’re so, although that said some of the very senior officers, like, Oh, who am I thinking of the guy who was captured on Corregidor, the senior officer Wainwright there, he he’s not sent to war camps. He’s a general, you know, and so you would have been sequestered, but by and large, being an officer wasn’t going to shield you from anything, but cheers, is interesting, cat. Okay, so, so then the question, you know, how much of that is real, okay, so force 316 there was no force 316 but there was a force 136 and that was the actual commando organization the British established in Sri Lanka and Ceylon, as it was called at the time, to run operations in the occupied zone. And we end up running into this character named Chapman, as part of this commando team. And there was a very famous guy named Freddie Chapman, who. Is incredible. He was a British mountaineer and adventurer who decided he wanted to set up a school to train saboteurs that would these parties of saboteurs would be left behind enemy lines and would do things like blow up railways and ambush troop convoys on roads and, you know, do that kind of stuff. And so Chapman goes into the jungle after Singapore falls. He is left behind with a team of four. And there’s a couple other of these teams scattered around here, and he and his men go on kind of a a two week long rampage where they are blowing up bridges and doing all these things. But in the immediate aftermath of the war, a lot more of the malayans were happy to have the Japanese come in. The full horrors of the Japanese occupation hadn’t really, you know, come to the fore, and so a lot of these teams end up getting betrayed by the malayans, one by one, Chapman’s men either get captured or killed. And finally, Chapman is left alone in Malaya. He ends up hooking up with the Chinese Communist guerrillas who were living up in the hills. And Chapman survives in Malaya for three plus years. He is He gets horribly sick. He gets malaria a couple of times. He gets tick typhus. He nearly dies. He gets captured by the Japanese and escapes a couple of times. So he’s a phenomenal physical specimen, but really also a phenomenal mental specimen too. He writes this famous book right after the war in 1949 called The jungle is neutral. My dad had that book as a teenager. He gave it to me as a teenager, and still on my bookshelf, it’s a marvelous account. So there is this real life dude named Chapman, and the fact that there was no Chapman in the novel, but there is a Chapman in the screenplay, hmm, coincidence, I think not. Of course, the Chapman in the movie ends up, you know, dying almost immediately, but nevertheless, there are a couple of interesting scenes with him. That’s sort of the the formulation of this commando team here. So, yeah, not completely historical, historically realistic, but there are some definite echoes of things that actually did happen in the war real.

Dan LeFebvre  42:22

Since we mentioned force 316, if we go back to the movie, we do see it is four British commandos. But then when they parachute in, Chapman ends up dying. His parachute lands in one of the trees and kills him. But the remaining soldiers hook up with the local guy that talked about earlier, guy to get to River Kwai, where the bridge is, and the movie shows this as this long, treacherous journey through the jungle. I’ve got, I got a clip of that too that I’ll show that it’s made even more dangerous when they’re discovered by a Japanese patrol. They kill those soldiers, but it leaves Warden injured. That comes into play at the end of the movie. Maybe it’s just me, but I found a few things about the trip implausible because they parachute into the island. Ei sees the plane dropping the team, and then he says there’s a Japanese outpost that’s just like, three miles away. But apparently they didn’t notice the plane as it’s coming in later on, Japanese patrol happens upon the group of 4316, they shoot at the patrol, but then the movie makes a point of showing how 1000s of bats or birds and trees take to the skies. But again, no other Japanese outpost or anybody really seems to notice any of this.

Jon Parshall  43:31

And I was also going to say there’s also sort of this humorous scene in the movie when they’re still back in Sri Lanka, where they talk to shears about, you know, we should get cheers here some some parachute training, you know, and and then they come back later, and they’re like, well, they tell us that the odds, you know, you’re likely to get injured if you do more than two of these drops. And so it’s actually more efficacious just to not practice at all. We’ll just put a parachute on you and basically shove you out of the plane. That actually happened to the real life Chapman, okay, so he was going to be parachuted back into Malaya at the very end of the war, and the only way to get him in there was to parachute him, and they asked him about training, and that’s exactly the word that came back. I’ll just, you know, after two of these, you’ll probably be injured, not be able to go, so it’s just better to, you know, to put you, uh, in the plane, and just basically shove you out the door. So, you know, you’re laughing about that, and they laugh about it in the movie as well. But that’s an actual that actually did happen to Freddie Chapman, and he ended up surviving his jump. The Chapman in the movie does not the jungle is weird, though. You’re right in saying, Okay, there’s supposed to be an outpost only three miles away, but yeah, if it’s in the jungle and you’ve got crappy trails, man, that might as well be on the moon. There were. Yeah, here’s, this is a great clip. Go ahead and cue this up. Yeah, I love this clip defines the Triple Canopy jungle, crazy birds, if you’ve ever been in jungle, and this was filmed in Sri Lanka, but they’ve got legit serious jungle there too. The density of the undergrowth is just astonishing. If you go to places like Saipan or Guadalcanal. I mean, my God, you can’t see 10 feet in front of your face, you know, so and actually, let’s continue here, because I think we’re, we’re going to be able to get some clips of them using their their machetes as they’re hacking their way through this. Yeah, here we go. I love how the camera is so close in on them, and it’s so dark, because it is dark down on the jungle floor. You’ve got, you know, all these the canopy above you. It’s often very, very gloomy and very dense. See, I really like this. This particular scene of them popping the way through. The other thing you’ve ever actually picked up a machete. They’re heavy as hell doing 10 or 15 minutes worth of machete work, even for a fit man, will leave you exhausted. We have accounts from the Marines on Guadalcanal and the soldiers on Guadalcanal, you know, hacking their way through the jungle with machetes and whatnot. You had to do it in relays because it was just so exhausting. So you can see why. In some cases, if you don’t have a trail to follow and you’re actually having to do some hacking, you’d be lucky to make a mile a day through this stuff. It is just super, super dense, and it’s really easy to get lost and so forth. So yeah, I really liked this clip,

Dan LeFebvre  46:58

and I like that they also showed, I mean, I showed the monkey there, but it’s showing that it is a clear sky, like it’s blue sky. It’s daytime, but this almost looks like nighttime because it’s so dark in there. And

Jon Parshall  47:08

that’s one of the things that Chapman remarks upon in his book The jungle is neutral, which is still a great read, even today, that, yeah, it’s dark down here, you know? And it’s a really intimidating environment, particularly for a Western soldier who was not used to fighting in this sort of environment. Well, earlier

Dan LeFebvre  47:26

I mentioned the local village in the movie, The villager named ya and he talks about how the Japanese took all his men, and that’s why, in the movie, as we see them going through the jungle, force 316, going through the jungle, we see some women there to help. Speer seems to be a little bit player, not only with the Thai women, but with some of the women back in Ceylon as well. So I’ve got a clip of that too that we can see them.

Jon Parshall  47:59

So all of these women were Thai actresses, and actually, a couple of them ended up being very well known in Thailand after the war of the one of them Villa Lane, who ends up running the mortar up on the top of the hill with warden at the end of the movie, she’s still alive as may 2024 I have a picture of her, you know, sipping a chai. But, yeah, this movie, this movie was very female challenged in that there just weren’t a lot of roles that that they could bring women in. So we saw when shears is is on Ceylon, yeah, we have a couple of scenes, gratuitous scenes with a very fetching nurse there and then here in the jungle, we have, you know, four or five very fetching Thai women as well. In the original book, there is not a single female character. They’re not even, you know, even alluded to. So, you know, I guess the movie is a step forward in that respect. At least we have some women, but obviously they’re, you know, we have this later scene where the women are bathing in the river, and, you know, that’s kind of gratuitous to funny how all five of them are just incredibly beautiful, you know, and that’s who we just happen to have in the village, you know, five babes. But anyway, yeah,

Dan LeFebvre  49:27

talking about the the jungle and chopping through. I do have another clip of combat in the jungle there, and I want to ask about, I

Jon Parshall  49:40

lo and behold, one of them is not dead.

Jon Parshall  49:53

Clearly there would have been a trail or something that this guy is boogieing down. I. Yeah.

Jon Parshall  50:21

Again, can’t see the hand in front of your phrase, practically super dense vegetation. Sound is incredibly important.

Dan LeFebvre  50:42

I so I notice here this is it’s a little bit different from what we just saw before, where the jungle is. I mean, it’s dense, but it’s not as dense. And I kind of got the sense that maybe that was partially for the movie to be able to see a little bit easier, but I think so. How well do you think it does with the jungle combat there? Well, I think it

Jon Parshall  51:34

conveys the tension level of that sort of combat very effectively, which you which you end up reading about when you’re talking about land combat in South Asia and any of these places in the tropics is, yeah, sound is incredibly important, and in many cases it was just incredibly confusing. You didn’t know where your enemy was. In fact, in the culmination of this clip, our man, Joyce here is going to, actually, of course, has to encounter the Japanese soldier. And it happens under relatively unrealistic terms, because the Japanese soldier just stands up right in front of him. He never would have done that. He would have shot him, you know. And you know, there were many, many instances where God, particularly in the combat down in New Guinea, around buna GONA, you’d be advancing along a path with a team of, you, know, a squad of 10 or 1112, guys. You can’t see anything in front of you. And the Japanese would have these bunkers that were beautifully camouflaged. The first indication that you get is as to whether there’s a Japanese fortification out there is when it opens up on you and murders the first you know, couple guys in your column, and now you all go to ground and are trying to peer ahead and you know, is there any telltale smoke that will show you where you know, the Japanese firing slit is, or whatever. And not only that, but the Japanese they had very good flashless powder for their rifles. The Arasaka rifle was a piece of crap in general, and it was too big and unwieldy for jungle combat. But because it had pretty good flashless powder. It made it even more difficult to figure out where the hell you’re being shot at from. So I do like this clip in that it, it gives that sort of claustrophobic sense, which is true to life, but the fact that the Japanese soldier then stands up in front of Joyce at the end of this clip and doesn’t murder him, instead, he would have murdered him. And then, you know, left, left warden to try to figure out, you know, whether he could kill the enemy after that. Anyway, yeah, when

Dan LeFebvre  53:50

the commandos actually do reach their destination, we get the first glance at the Bridge on the River Kwai as it’s finished, and they’re impressed with how nice it is. They say it’s not like the bridges the Japanese usually throw together. Earlier in the movie, they talk about how some of the British, we talked a little bit about that British, have experienced building bridges, and they don’t think that the guy that Japanese assigned to design the bridge actually knows what he’s doing. But then this scene with the Commandos, and they talk about how it’s not like the bridges the enemies usually throw together, it suggests to me that the British were overall better at building bridges. I know we talked about that, but it kind of goes back to the British desire to build a proper bridge, and they seem to do that, at least according to the movie. But do you think that the movie actually does a good job, since it’s the title of the movie, I have to ask we talked a bit about here and there. But is there any truth to the way the movie shows the Bridge on the River Kwai. No,

Jon Parshall  54:41

not really as as I say that the eventual steel and feral concrete bridge that gets put in there, if you look at it today, it’s pretty unimpressive, whereas the bridge pretty unimpressive, but very well engineered and very sturdy, because it’s made. On the concrete, you know, whereas this bridge in the movie is super it’s really interesting looking, because it’s got all these trestles and all that good stuff, you know, it’s so it’s a good looking bridge. But again, I think what you’re seeing here is the sort of rank prejudice on the part of a British American movie having to portray ourselves. Well, we build proper bridges, you know. And the Japanese, we’re simply incapable of that, which is all Balderdash, but, yeah, but they have to make it look that way again in the afterglow of our triumph in World War Two. So

Dan LeFebvre  55:35

I’m assuming that’s, I think you sent me a picture of that bridge, and I’ll make sure to add that the actual bridge, right? Yeah, that looks quite different that. I mean, the bridge is beautiful in the movie, I will give it that. I mean, beautiful wood and

Jon Parshall  55:49

wooden bridge, and it’s not a model. That’s the other thing that’s kind of cool about it. It was, oh, wow, yeah, it’s full size. And they actually drove a real train over it and blew it up, you know. So, so that’s, that’s kind of cool, and actually, it’s even worse than that. They, they when they were about to film the demolition scene. Spoiler alert, the bridge gets blown up. Feel

Dan LeFebvre  56:12

like that’s spoiler trying to spoil that Titanic. Hopefully people know by now. Yeah,

Jon Parshall  56:18

they there was a, there was one of the actors was in the shot as the train is starting to come over, and he couldn’t get out of the shot in time, and so they couldn’t actually detonate the bridge then. So they had to let the train just, which is unmanned, just roll across the bridge, and it ends up, you know, running into a wall, and ends up really beating up the train. So then they, the next day, there were going to be a whole bunch of muckety mucks there from the Sri Lankan government to witness this thing. And so they had to patch the train up real fast overnight, you know, get ready for its demolition The following morning. But, yeah, the reason that the demolition scene is as impressive as it is because it’s a real bridge with a real train.

Dan LeFebvre  57:00

We will talk a little bit about the way the movie ends there, but after the bridge is completed on time, in the movie, we see it was an interesting scene. There’s British soldiers celebrating with performance and kind of a makeshift theater. But meanwhile, there are some cutaways, and I have a clip here of Colonel Saito. He’s writing a note cuts off some of his hair to put it in the note. Saito doesn’t really say anything in this scene, and I can’t read Japanese, so I’m not really sure what his note says. But the way this all kind of plays out in the movie, it seems to imply that Saito is about to commit suicide. For some reason, it seems almost a little bit odd. Well, I

Jon Parshall  57:33

think that no, the implications are clear, that he is going to commit suicide, but what he’s doing here is he’s composing his final letter home, and I find it a very poignant scene, because we’re sort of humanizing Saito here, and that we see him writing, we see a picture, presumably of his wife sitting on that desk there. He’s then cutting off a lock of his hair. This was very common. When the Japanese would write their final letters home, they would either send some of their hair or fingernail clippings. In some cases, you know, something to remember me by. But yeah, all of the the unspoken under underlying context here suggests that Saito is going to kill himself, and I think it’s because, okay, I’ve made my my bridge building date in time, but the only way I was able to do it was by throwing in my lot with these uppity British officers who have essentially taken over this project from me. At this point, they’re in control of this thing. I’m sort of the nominal figurehead, which is incredibly shameful. And so, yeah, I think that he’s, he, he feels he has disgraced himself. And he is, he is going to be taking himself off stage right here at as soon as that bridge is in commission.

Dan LeFebvre  58:58

And I mean, we’ve already talked about how it’s implausible that the British would actually take over a command like we see in the movie. But in a what if scenario, if this had happened, would that be something that a Japanese commanding officer would do is as because being so shamed?

Jon Parshall  59:15

Well, I mean, the Japanese, the Japanese kill themselves all the time. I shouldn’t laugh when I say that one of the sort of enduring, what I want to say, fascinations around the Imperial military for us as Westerners, particularly people like myself who study them, is just how completely different the Japanese think about a lot of different things, and they have a completely different mindset and a completely different moral code that we as Westerners often find utterly baffling. And so to a pragmatic Westerner, you know the fact that I got my bridge build, everybody’s happy, right? Everyone’s. Would be cool. The fact that Saito is is actively considering killing himself is kind of weird. But throughout this conflict, the Japanese, if they felt a sense of shame or failure over military setbacks and so forth, yeah, there was an absurd mortality rate amongst the officer corps, and frankly, among the the enlisted men as well. You know, a lot of viewers probably don’t know this, but anytime we went into an island fight in the Pacific and had to capture an island that the Japanese held, we typically had to kill between 97 and 98% of that Garrison before that piece of real estate was ours. Okay? And a lot of the prisoners that we would end up taking would have been prisoners who were too injured to have killed themselves, or had been knocked unconscious, or what have you. The number of Japanese who willingly surrendered to us was around 1.3% on average. So this is a very different military. They just have a completely different mindset when it comes to actually doing combat. And it was one that made this war just incredibly terrible, because that obdurates, you know, and unwillingness to be captured, didn’t do anybody any good. Didn’t do them any good, because in many cases, they were fighting to the death when there was no recognizable military benefit from having done so, and yet, that’s just how they were trained and how they had been indoctrinated, frankly. So yeah, it’s a very different military culture than we as Westerners are used to

Dan LeFebvre  1:01:47

what you talked about. The actual during the movie, the bridge being blown up. And at the end of the movie, we do see the train coming across the bridge, but just before it arrives, it’s actually Nicholson, who is the one who spots the explosives wired up to the bridge that the British commandos had set up, and then it’s Nicholson who calls attention to the Japanese that the bridge is mined, and even when they come across, when the force 316, members, Joyce, he’s coming across, Nicholson’s trying to stop Joyce from blowing up the bridge. Japanese soldiers are alerted in the ensuing gunfights, all the commandos are killed, except for Warden, because he’s the one that was injured earlier in the movie. So at this point I talked about, you mentioned this earlier, he’s kind of providing distracting fire using a mortar. Well,

Jon Parshall  1:02:30

yes and no, although in the final, the final mortar shell that Warden fires is the one that kills Nicholson. And it’s and it’s deliberate. And you know, because you see the horrified looks on the part of the Thai women, it’s just like you just killed those dudes. And he turns around and says, I had to do it. They might have been captured alive, yada yada yada. And you can see right there, a lot of sharks have gotten jumped in that section of the movie, Nicholson has obviously gone completely over the line. You know, you’re no longer just sort of skirting collaboration. You’re you’re working with the Japanese now to preserve this bridge and are actively collaborating against armed soldiers of your own army who are trying to accomplish a militarily legal and, and, you know, correct sort of thing, they’re trying to blow up an enemy asset here. So that’s weird, you know, Nicholson has gone crazy. And of course, he realizes at the end, you know, what have I done? You know, right? But then you also see Warden jumps the shark too, in that he ends up killing Nicholson, and arguably, also ends up probably putting the coup de gras to shears as well.

Dan LeFebvre  1:03:51

I was going to say I think he was, he was injured there. We don’t really see him dead, but yeah, the mortar seems to take him out there too. Yeah,

Jon Parshall  1:03:57

right, so there’s just a lot of nobody, nobody ends up winding up happy as a result of this. You know all, all of the characters are dead, except for Warden, who has kind of gone insane and is completely destroyed any relationship with with his his Thai porters, who have also lost their village head man as a result of this fight as well. Yeah, I is also killed in this movie. So you can see why, you know, clipton comes in at the end and just says, madness, madness, you know, because that really is the culmination of this movie. And even

Dan LeFebvre  1:04:38

though Warden is alive, he barely even made it there, so that trip back, I mean, I don’t know that he would, especially without the help of the women, if they don’t end up helping him.

Jon Parshall  1:04:49

Yeah, you don’t, and we don’t know that’s all sort of unspoken at the end, whether or not he makes it back or not, but yeah, his odds if he has to go alone, no, he’s. Not going to make it. He is not going to make it. I was

Dan LeFebvre  1:05:02

going to say you sent me a picture of the real bridge. So I’m assuming the way the movie ends is not anything like what historically actually happened at all.

Jon Parshall  1:05:09

Right? So what ends up actually happening is that we use a much more viable military asset than a commando team to blow up this bridge. We use airplanes, because that’s what airplanes do. And so in 1944 there is a campaign that is going through Burma. The British Army eventually counter attacks into Burma at the end of the war, and really puts the hurtin on the Japanese it’s one of the biggest defeats the Japanese army suffers during that war. And obviously one of the things they’re trying to do is shut down the supply line, and so they send army aircraft over, and they bomb the bridge, and they eventually knock the bridge out. So that puts paid to that portion of the railroad. And actually that railroad no longer really exists, because the route that it went through was so rugged and whatnot that, you know, there are segments of the railroad still left but, but by and large, it’s not used today, other than to take tourists up to the bridge and, you know, show them portions of that sort of thing. Um, there’s another sort of little Danu mA here in that one of the very first engine the Japanese used to run over that railroad is preserved today in the ushicon Museum in Tokyo. And when I take tours with with guests from the World War Two Museum, we go to that museum, and it’s the first thing you see when you walk in the door of this museum is this sort of, huh, you know, the railroad engineer, you know. And the English placards don’t really say anything about it. They say, Oh, this engine was manufactured in Japan, and it was used in Thailand for economic development after the war. And it doesn’t mention the fact that, yeah, it basically was the first rent engine that went over this railroad that cost the lives of 102,000 civilians and POWs and whatnot. But that’s the you should con museum for you. It’s got a very hard, right, sort of interpretational slant, and so as far as they’re concerned, you know, it’s a lovely railroad engine. But anyway, yeah, that’s how the historical bridge ends up getting put paid to we bomb it with airplanes. So

Dan LeFebvre  1:07:24

then I’m assuming, since they take people on tours there, I’m assuming, did they rebuild it then for tourist purposes? If it’s not really being used, or is it, I think

Jon Parshall  1:07:33

that segment of it they actually do use. The actual historical bridge is actually by a fairly large town. It’s not actually out in the middle of the jungle, as movie portrays. So. So it is still in use, so far as I know. But as I say, they ended up renaming the river to be to be KY so it would be more in keeping with what, you know, what the tourists want to see typing

Dan LeFebvre  1:07:56

into GPS, you’re not going to find it if it’s not even who

Jon Parshall  1:08:00

wants to go to the river over the big long you know, nobody wants to go there yet.

Dan LeFebvre  1:08:06

Well, thank you so much for taking time away from your new book to come on the show. I’ll make sure to add a link to your book’s website so everybody can sign up to get updates on your new book. The Bridge on the River Kwai, covering that movie. It’s been highly requested here on my podcast, and I’m sure a lot of people want to learn more about the railway of death, Japanese occupation and more, and I know you’re touching on a lot of those subjects in your new book as well. So can you share a peek for what fans of the movie bridge on river Kwai can look forward to when your book is published? Sure. So

Jon Parshall  1:08:35

it is a new history of the year 1942 just basically talking about how the Allies turned around their train wrecks worldwide. So I’m talking about Battle of the Atlantic, the Eastern Front, the Mediterranean, but also a lot about the Pacific. And I’m fascinated by these early campaigns in the Pacific in places like Malaya and Burma. So yes, I do talk about that. And I also do have a segment in one of the chapters that talks about just how badly the Japanese mismanaged this whole, their whole new empire that they conquered. You know, they have this, this phrase that this is going to be the the Asian co prosperity sphere. That’s sort of the propaganda phrase that they use, and really what it ends up being is sort of the Asian co impoverishment sphere, as all of these economies fall apart, and so I do delve into some of that as well.

Dan LeFebvre  1:09:27

Wow, yeah, it sounds like a fast, a lot of stuff to cover there. I can’t wait to check that one out.

Jon Parshall  1:09:34

Yeah, it’ll definitely, it’ll definitely occupy the reader for a while. But yes, it should be, it should be coming out from Oxford University Press in the early part of 2026

Dan LeFebvre  1:09:44

Fantastic. Thanks again. So much for your time, Jon.

Jon Parshall  1:09:53

Thank you, I appreciate it.