00:00:02:01 – 00:00:32:21
Dan LeFebvre
Hello and welcome to Based on a True Story, the podcast that compares your favorite Hollywood movies and TV shows with history. With spooky season upon us. Today we’re pulling another classic episode from the vault. Actually, more than that, we’re going to do three episodes all about the same TV series History Channel’s Project Blue Book. In case the title alone doesn’t tell you what it’s about, Project Blue Book was the codename for the United States Air Force’s systematic study of UFOs.

00:00:32:23 – 00:00:56:27
Dan LeFebvre
Perhaps the best way to summarize it is from this fact sheet from the Air Force themselves, and I want to link to the whole thing in the show notes. If you want to read it all. But it starts like this. From 1947 to 1969, the Air Force investigated unidentified flying objects under Project Blue Book. The project, headquartered at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, was terminated December 17th, 1969.

00:00:57:00 – 00:01:28:06
Dan LeFebvre
Of a total of 12,618 sightings reported to Project Blue Book, 701 remained unidentified. Now, if you’re watching the video version of this, you might notice some of my little corrections to that document, because technically, Project Blue Book itself didn’t start in 1947. The truth is a little more complex than that, as we’ll hear throughout this episode. But as you might imagine, the TV show that shares the name of the Air Force’s Project Blue Book covers some of those reports created by David O’Leary.

00:01:28:07 – 00:01:51:00
Dan LeFebvre
Project blue Book ran for two seasons of ten episodes each. The first season was in 2019 and the second in 2020. So that means we have a lot to cover today. And to kick this off, we’ll get to hear from the host of one of my all time favorite UFO related podcasts, Rob Christofferson. He’ll help us separate fact from fiction in each episode of the entire series, both seasons.

00:01:51:04 – 00:02:10:08
Dan LeFebvre
So that’s two episodes, one for each season. And then for the third episode, we’ll get to go behind the TV show itself as we hear from the creator, David O’Leary and the showrunner, Sean Blonsky. Before we kick this off with Rob Christofferson, though, let’s set up our game Two Truths and a lie for the first season of Project Blue Book.

00:02:10:10 – 00:02:28:10
Dan LeFebvre
Now, if you’re new to the show, since based on a true story is all about separating fact from fiction in the movies and TV, you’ll get to practice your skills at separating fact from fiction. In this podcast episode, with the game of two Truths and lie. So I’m about to give you three things that we’ll talk about during the first season of Project Blue Book.

00:02:28:13 – 00:03:01:03
Dan LeFebvre
Two of those things are true, and one of them is just an all out lie. Are you ready? Okay. Here, there. Number one, Project Blue Book was the first time the government investigated UFOs. Number two, former Nazi Wernher von Braun teamed up with Walt Disney to promote the U.S. space program after World War two. Number three, the term Foo Fighters was used by World War Two pilots who saw unexplained phenomena.

00:03:01:06 – 00:03:20:25
Dan LeFebvre
Got them. Okay, now, as you’re listening to our story today, see if you can figure out which one of those. It’s a lie. And I’ve got the answer in the envelope right here. And we’ll open that at the end of season one of Project Bluebook to see how well you did. Oh, and speaking of the video version here, just so you know, these episodes are from the vault.

00:03:20:25 – 00:03:47:18
Dan LeFebvre
They were recorded in 2020 and 2021, respectively. And that was before I did video episodes. So these are remastered audio only episodes. But with that, now it’s time to playback my chat with Rob Christopherson from 2020 about the historical accuracy of Project Bluebook Season one.

00:03:47:21 – 00:04:24:15
Dan LeFebvre
I’d like to start by setting the stage for Doctor J. Allen Hynek and his work on Project Bluebook. Now, according to the TV show Doctor, Hynek was an astrophysics teacher at Ohio State before he he’s recruited by the US Air Force to investigate flying saucers, what they called Project Bluebook. Now, there’s one little bit of dialog in the show where they give a very vague reason as to why they picked Doctor Hynek, and it’s when General James Harding tells Captain Michael Quinn that Hynek, quote, did some things for us in the war, end quote.

00:04:24:18 – 00:04:45:24
Dan LeFebvre
So not a lot of details there about that. But they do give some details about why they started Project Blue Book itself. Now, the reason that the show gives for that was because there are Hollywood movies about aliens coming out, and the public know something’s going on, but no one knows exactly what, including the government. According to the show.

00:04:45:25 – 00:05:08:00
Dan LeFebvre
So they want to find out, but they also want to cover it up. We get the sense from the show that the military picked Hynek because of his scientific background, because he’s not in the military, they’re hoping that they can give a little bit of some scientific proof to the public for flying saucers. That’s outside of the military.

00:05:08:03 – 00:05:30:12
Dan LeFebvre
Now, in the show, Doctor Hynek agrees to join Project Bluebook on three conditions. One is that he stays on staff at Ohio State. Two is he gets a paycheck from the government, some extra money for his family. And the three is that he gets recognition for whatever he finds. So that is, according to this TV show, a kind of setting all of this up.

00:05:30:14 – 00:05:36:19
Dan LeFebvre
How well do you think the show did depicting the way that Doctor Hynek got involved in Project Bluebook?

00:05:36:21 – 00:06:08:19
Rob Kristoffersen
So Doctor Hynek, joining Project Bluebook was kind of a matter of convenience for most. So, when Project Bluebook comes into being in late 1951, this is essentially the government’s third attempt to study the UFO phenomenon. And doctor J.L. and Harnick was part of the government’s first UFO study, which is called Project Sign, signed commenced in January of 1948 and was shuttered later that year.

00:06:08:21 – 00:06:40:11
Rob Kristoffersen
He joined the project in the spring of 48, for a few different reasons. He was at the time the director of the observatory at Ohio State University. All of the government’s UFO projects were run out of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, which was about 60 miles away from him. And Hynek already had a high security clearance from his work on the proximity fuze during World War two, which is what they kind of allude to him doing things for us during the war.

00:06:40:14 – 00:07:06:05
Rob Kristoffersen
And when you factor in all of these things, Hynek was kind of the guy they needed an astronomer to rule out any kind of astronomical explanation that there could be for the sightings. And, he was a perfect guy to do it. So, as our good friend Sam stated on the Not Alone podcast, right place, right time, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.

00:07:06:08 – 00:07:10:27
Dan LeFebvre
I love that. So,

00:07:10:29 – 00:07:46:27
Rob Kristoffersen
When Hynek took the job, he believed that this would be a quick one. He was pretty sure that what the UFO phenomenon was at the time was just Cold War nerves, world War two, latent nerves, you know, stuff left over. So, one of the most important cases that Hynek worked on, and that will come full circle for his involvement in Project Blue Book is a case involving a pilot by the name of Thomas F Mantell, who died while in pursuit of a UFO in January of 1948.

00:07:47:00 – 00:08:25:29
Rob Kristoffersen
Mantell and a few other pilots were taxiing planes from Marietta, Georgia, to Stanford Field in Kentucky. And while they were doing that, Godman Air Force Base, which was located near Fort Knox, had received a few unidentified blips on their radar and asked Mantell and his crew of a few other pilots to go investigate it. Well, Mantell pursued the object, but, unfortunately, he didn’t have oxygen on board, so when his plane climbed too high, he suffered from epoxy, which basically caused him to crash his plane.

00:08:26:02 – 00:08:50:15
Rob Kristoffersen
And Hynek was the one that kind of made his determination on this case. And he claimed that he was chasing the planet Venus. So really just kind of debunking mentality. And that was at the start of Project Sine. That was the mentality that, and Hynek had. So.

00:08:50:18 – 00:09:17:06
Rob Kristoffersen
Project sine was basically shuttered largely because of a document called The Estimate of the situation, which basically said that these crafts were extraterrestrial in origin. No surviving copy of this document exists, though, like, the generals that this report went to basically said, you have to destroy every single one of these, documents. There’s no way that we’re going to the president or anybody with this kind of information.

00:09:17:06 – 00:09:54:02
Rob Kristoffersen
So no surviving copy has ever been found, but there have been people who have attested to it, including Doctor Hynek himself. So signed was shuttered and was reactivated as Project Grudge. Now, grudge was strictly a debunking campaign. They downplayed reports and at times just threw them out. Didn’t even bother to investigate them. Grudge officially lasted for about a year, but they kind of kept somebody on staff so that if somebody did want to report UFO sightings to there, there would be somebody there.

00:09:54:02 – 00:10:25:14
Rob Kristoffersen
And that guy’s name was Lieutenant Jerry Cummings. And in 1951, there was a sighting at Fort Monroe, Monmouth, new Jersey, and Air Force personnel witnessed a disc shaped object. And a report was, filed, but was ultimately dismissed by Cummings under the directive that he had been working with. And this report made its name to a general by the name of CP Campbell, who requested to see the report and didn’t really like the looks of it.

00:10:25:15 – 00:10:55:04
Rob Kristoffersen
He didn’t feel like people were being honest with him, and Cummings basically told him how the project had been handled up to this point, that it was there just to debunk reports. And, at that point, Cummings got or sorry, Campbell got pretty angry and, he ordered that, Project Grudge be reactivated in full force. Unfortunately, Cummings was on his way out, back to a civilian life.

00:10:55:04 – 00:11:08:09
Rob Kristoffersen
So he got a gentleman by the name of Captain Edward Rupert, who was the first Project Bluebook head to, spearhead this project. So.

00:11:08:12 – 00:11:32:16
Rob Kristoffersen
Captain Rupert was essentially the backup pilot, for the crew of the Enola Gay. So if any, of the pilots that were involved in that flight couldn’t, somehow make it, for whatever reason, he was the guy that was going to fly that plane, and he had worked with Doctor Hynek before on Project Sign, and he quickly got in there.

00:11:32:16 – 00:11:52:15
Rob Kristoffersen
He whipped this project into shape, and it soon it would be relabeled Project Blue Book. But one of the things that he did was he went back into the old reports just to see what was there, to see how things were ruled. And Rupert was the kind of guy who was going to give you his objective opinion.

00:11:52:15 – 00:12:14:20
Rob Kristoffersen
He wanted this to be as objective study as possible. So if you leaned one way, either one way to one side or the other, you were kicked off the team. So, one case report that he looked at was the Thomas F Mantell case, and he saw that Hynek was the one that made the determination on that one.

00:12:14:22 – 00:12:47:00
Rob Kristoffersen
So he basically called him up and said, I need you to come back in here. We need to reexamine this case. They determined that what Mantell was chasing was a Project Mogul balloon. This was a newly declassified project. As of 1951, that essentially set up weather balloons to, with audio equipment attached to them. And they were basically there to detect Soviet atomic bomb tests.

00:12:47:03 – 00:12:56:29
Rob Kristoffersen
And that’s basically how Hynek made his way onto Project Bluebook. He stayed, after that, through the entirety of the project.

00:12:57:01 – 00:13:14:26
Dan LeFebvre
So just to make sure I’m understanding there was a captain, because in the show, there’s Captain Quinn, and we also meet a couple generals. General Harding and General Valentine are the character names. Were they also were they based on those, those generals and the captain that you were referring to, or they just completely fictional?

00:13:14:29 – 00:13:55:22
Rob Kristoffersen
They’re inspired. They’re not, totally those people. For instance, Captain Quinn is kind of based on to Project Blue book heads, Edward Powell, like I mentioned. And, another one by the name of Colonel Robert Friend, who was a Tuskegee Airman, and he served, I think, for about a year. But he was he had had that Edward Pelt mentality, which was he they were skeptical, but they wouldn’t let their, skeptical beliefs really shatter any kind of, reports or anything like that or, you know, lead them down a road.

00:13:55:22 – 00:14:24:12
Rob Kristoffersen
They didn’t think they should be going. In general, Valentine, I do believe, is based on General Nathan Twining, who was the general that actually created Project Sign, and he was kind of a figure in the background during the government UFO research project. So he was always kind of there in the background, always kind of got Intel and he’s, you know, made some interesting statements on UFOs and such.

00:14:24:14 – 00:14:36:05
Rob Kristoffersen
The there’s some funny interviews with him. There’s one in which he alludes to UFOs kind of thwarting U.S. forces in Vietnam and stuff like that. It’s, there’s a lot of fun stuff out there.

00:14:36:08 – 00:14:49:19
Dan LeFebvre
Well, yeah. Okay. I was just curious because obviously Doctor Hynek being real. I was just curious who on the military side of it would have been real. But it sounds like they’re more just composite characters, which is very common that we get for movies and TV shows.

00:14:49:22 – 00:14:59:18
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah, for the most part, the only, real to life characters on the show are Doctor Allen Hynek and his wife, Mimi. Mimi Hynek.

00:14:59:21 – 00:15:25:25
Dan LeFebvre
You mentioned the pilot there, and that leads right into the next question that I have, because in episode one, it kicks off with something that they call the Fuller Incident. Now, I’m going to assume that’s not necessarily the the same incident that you were referring to, because this in the show at least happens in Fargo, North Dakota, and it’s named after Lieutenant Henry Fuller, who is the pilot who gets into this dogfight with a flying saucer.

00:15:25:27 – 00:15:48:18
Dan LeFebvre
And according to the show, that was essentially the reason why they started Project Blue Book. But then after the investigation of the incident, Doctor Hynek concludes that the object the lieutenant was chasing was nothing more than a weather balloon. And you mentioned something similar to that. So was the fuller incident that we see in the show. That event that you were referring to, is that something else?

00:15:48:20 – 00:16:20:04
Rob Kristoffersen
No, that’s a little bit different. It has some of the hallmarks of the Thomas F Mantell case, but the Fuller incident is based directly on an incident called the Gorman dogfight. And, this involved a man by the name of George F Gorman, who was an Air National Guard pilot out of Fargo, North Dakota. And on October 1st, 1948, his squadron was returning from a flight at night, and Gorman decided he wanted to stay up in the air for a little bit, longer for some night flying practice.

00:16:20:04 – 00:16:42:06
Rob Kristoffersen
And after circling around a football stadium, this was around 9 p.m. that night. He was approaching Hector Airport and was notified by the tower that there was a Piper Cub plane below him. And, he was forced to circle the airport for a short period of time. And on one pass, he saw what he believed to be the tail light of another craft.

00:16:42:06 – 00:17:10:26
Rob Kristoffersen
Pass the cape, the Piper Cub plane on his right. It was white and color, blinking in intervals and approximately 6 to 8in in diameter. So this object was not registering on radar in any way. But, he went into an investigate it. And when Gorman made his approach, the light stopped blinking and basically just took off. And Gorman engage with the object.

00:17:10:26 – 00:17:40:28
Rob Kristoffersen
He pursued it. He found himself out, maneuvered basically at every turn, but was able to get behind it at one point. But when he did, the object basically turned around and flew straight in his direction. It passed right over his canopy and turned around to do it again. But before it seemingly was supposed to make impact, the light abruptly turned upward and shot straight up into the air.

00:17:41:01 – 00:18:04:22
Rob Kristoffersen
Now, Gorman attempted to pursue the object, but it was such a steep climb that his plane stalled out at 14,000ft. He was able to restart it, though, and landed. So, it’s not like it is. It’s depicted in the show. It’s the. He doesn’t crash the plane or anything, but, what makes this sighting so powerful is that there were numerous eyewitnesses to it.

00:18:04:29 – 00:18:28:05
Rob Kristoffersen
The two men manning the tower that night, Lloyd de Jensen and H. Johnson attested to the object’s fast speed, maneuverability, and the Piper Cub plane. The pilot of it, doctor A.E. cannon, also saw the light and testified to basically the same thing. And here’s a here’s a fun quote from, Mr. Gorman, quote.

00:18:28:05 – 00:19:08:18
Rob Kristoffersen
I am convinced that there was definite thought behind its maneuvering. I am further convinced that the object was governed by the laws of inertia, because its acceleration was rapid but not immediate, and although it was able to turn fairly tight at considerable speed, it still followed a natural curve. End quote. So this case was one of the Landmark Project’s nine cases, the other being The Test, the death of Thomas F Mantell, and another account known as the Child’s Weighted Account, which involved two civilian pilots that witness basically a long cigar shaped object fly alongside their plane at night.

00:19:08:21 – 00:19:18:01
Rob Kristoffersen
So that’s really what, that incident and, what that, episode was based on.

00:19:18:03 – 00:19:22:08
Dan LeFebvre
Sounds like movements that you would expect from a weather balloon. Right.

00:19:22:10 – 00:19:32:18
Rob Kristoffersen
Kind of. It kind of reminded me of, like, if you think about it, like, maybe like an alien playing with a laser pointer, you know, it’s it’s got those hallmarks there, I like that.

00:19:32:19 – 00:19:33:21
Sean Jablonski
Yeah.

00:19:33:23 – 00:19:36:03
Dan LeFebvre
There you go. And we’re just the cats following along, right.

00:19:36:05 – 00:19:37:13
Rob Kristoffersen
Absolutely.

00:19:37:15 – 00:19:57:13
Dan LeFebvre
Well, something that happened after this in the show was when Doctor Hynek used the term UFO for the first time. And, it was I thought this was funny because when he used it, the Captain Green character, you kind of looks at him as like a what? And then he goes on to explain, well, I’m kind of trying to coin this term to explain what we’re investigating.

00:19:57:16 – 00:20:02:13
Dan LeFebvre
Was he the one that actually coined the term UFO? And was it after that incident?

00:20:02:15 – 00:20:28:26
Rob Kristoffersen
No. Actually, the person that coined the term is it’s one of the people that coined is based on, Edward Rupert. He actually coined the term and early 52, he was looking for a different term because, flying saucer had such, negative, connotation associated with it. So he wanted a fresh term to go in with an unidentified flying object, is what he came up with.

00:20:28:28 – 00:20:36:25
Dan LeFebvre
I guess. Makes sense, too, because it’s not. You mentioned earlier a cigar shaped craft. They’re not always saucer shaped.

00:20:36:27 – 00:20:37:29
Rob Kristoffersen
No.

00:20:38:02 – 00:21:05:05
Dan LeFebvre
Now, in episode two of the show, Doctor Hynek and Captain Queen go to investigate a case in West Virginia where a mother and her children see something strange. And this is the case, according to the show called The Flatwoods Monster, because it’s not a flying saucer. This time or a UFO use that term, but it’s also involving a creature of some sort.

00:21:05:07 – 00:21:25:11
Dan LeFebvre
Maybe an alien creature. Well, that’s what Doctor Hynek and Captain Queen are there to find out. Ultimately, Doctor Hynek once again gives a rational explanation for the strange things that were seen. He stands up in front of the town and gives this speech. Captain Quinn and Doctor Hynek explained that the spaceship they saw was just a meteor.

00:21:25:14 – 00:21:47:00
Dan LeFebvre
The creature that they saw was a great horned owl. And Doctor Hynek goes on to give a scientific explanation about hot air and cold air, causing light to refract in different directions. It’s why stars twinkle and mirages are formed in the desert, according to his explanation. And it’s also how you can see an owl in a burning forest and think it’s a monster.

00:21:47:03 – 00:22:00:28
Dan LeFebvre
So that’s how the the movie or I’m sorry in the movie, the TV show sets up the flatwoods monster case. Was that a real investigation and how well did the show do explaining those events that happened?

00:22:01:00 – 00:22:30:04
Rob Kristoffersen
The flatwoods monster case was a real case that, took place in September of 1952. And it really is almost something out of a horror movie, especially when you look online at the images that were created once the eyewitnesses described what they were seeing. So, a group of kids, Eddie and Fred Mae and Tommy Heyer, witnessed this fireball in the sky in September of 1952.

00:22:30:07 – 00:22:55:29
Rob Kristoffersen
And they saw it go down in the forest. So they gathered a small group that included, the Mae’s mother and Gene Lemmon, who was a 17 year old National Guard member. And Lemmon led the charge into the into the forest. And they had first see what they believe was just two lights. But the more that they stare at them, the more that they realized that they look more like eyes.

00:22:56:02 – 00:23:23:29
Rob Kristoffersen
And then they see this large metallic looking creature that had, they described it like a spade behind its head, but it was completely red and apparently everyone in this group, which consisted of seven the seven people witnessed this creature. The town was kind of on edge a little bit, but not as bad as they depict it in the show.

00:23:24:01 – 00:23:54:09
Rob Kristoffersen
But, Project Blue Book really didn’t play much of a part in this case. This was really more investigated by civilian, UFO groups and, independent investigators. One of the most prominent was a an investigator named Gray Barker, who, did and investigated a number of cases, including the, famed Mothman flap in, West Virginia in 1966 and 1967.

00:23:54:11 – 00:24:32:06
Rob Kristoffersen
But basically all Project Blue Book did was looked at the, sighting of the object in the sky and just basically determined that it was a meteor. But they didn’t seem to acknowledge the creature at all in their, in their files. So, yeah, they didn’t really play much of a part, but, I did enjoy the depiction, of the way that they did things the skeptics have pointed to, an owl in a tree as being the culprit of this, but, I don’t necessarily pi that.

00:24:32:09 – 00:24:35:19
Dan LeFebvre
But it’s but it’s just, you know, the hot air and the cold air and.

00:24:35:21 – 00:24:36:02
Sean Jablonski
Well, the.

00:24:36:02 – 00:24:48:27
Rob Kristoffersen
Cool thing is the, when he’s talking about how stars twinkle, he was the astronomer that discovered how stars twinkle. So. Oh, it’s kind of fitting for him, you know?

00:24:48:29 – 00:24:58:00
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, well, that’s cool. I didn’t realize that. That they. I’m sure they they pulled that in as a as a little, little nugget there too, for somebody to find that cool.

00:24:58:03 – 00:25:25:22
Rob Kristoffersen
Or the, the cool thing about this show is that his children, Paul and I think another one of his children actually consult for the show. So it’s a lot more it’s it has its, you know, dramatic elements, but it’s, pretty accurate, as best as they have been able to contribute, there are some mannerisms that Aidan Gillen will do that, apparently are the same ones that Doctor Hynek would do.

00:25:25:22 – 00:25:54:04
Rob Kristoffersen
And, and, they’ve actually used like, personal items that, Jalen Hynek and maybe Hynek had for their characters in the show. So, you know, it’s a cool it’s a cool nod. And, the show is very respectful of his legacy. So I, I appreciate it for that because he is this really monumental figure in UFO research.

00:25:54:07 – 00:26:20:04
Dan LeFebvre
Well, let’s, continue on because there’s more episodes that we need to cover. After the flatwoods monster case, we see that Doctor Hynek is he’s taking his role very seriously, and he’s he’s really trying his best to come up with some scientific rationale behind both the faller incident and the flatwoods monster. But then the next case is the Lubbock Lights.

00:26:20:04 – 00:26:40:11
Dan LeFebvre
And that’s when things start to change as far as the show is concerned. And this is episode number three in the series. It’s the first time that both Captain Quinn and Doctor Hynek experienced something themselves. They’re out in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere, and Captain Quinn is inside the car and Doctor Hynek is outside of the car.

00:26:40:11 – 00:27:13:16
Dan LeFebvre
When the car just starts going crazy, lights are flashing, the radios tuning frequencies, the entire car is shaking, and then a massive V-shaped crack with blue lights fly over, and they both see it now in the show. General Harding and General Valentine in the military give Quinn and Hynek the explanation that what they saw was a top secret experimental craft that has a V shape wing, and they show some photos that look like they could be real from that time period.

00:27:13:18 – 00:27:38:12
Dan LeFebvre
But despite this explanation, Doctor Hynek doesn’t believe that this is true. Doesn’t really believe what the military is telling him. And so he’s starting to get the sense that perhaps he’s not getting the full story. At the very end of episode three, we see him writing in his notebook. He writes possible government cover up. So was the series correct?

00:27:38:12 – 00:27:49:27
Dan LeFebvre
And showing that Doctor Hynek started to have experiences of his own that he couldn’t explain around the time of the Lubbock Lights? And did he start to suspect that he wasn’t being fed the full story from the Air Force?

00:27:49:29 – 00:28:15:20
Rob Kristoffersen
Hynek, as far as I know, never witnessed a UFO while investigating any cases during Project Blue Book. There’s a really great biography of him called The Close Encounters Man by Mark O’Connell, and in it he talks about a sighting that he may have had while looking, through a telescope. He claimed he saw, like a strange object, fly over the face of the moon or something like that.

00:28:15:20 – 00:28:56:17
Rob Kristoffersen
But, he never had an overt UFO experience during his time. In regards to what the Air Force was letting him in on, Hynek was the one of the people that was on the inside. So it they never really kept anything from him. If anything, he knew things that he couldn’t really talk about. And, in 1953, there was a CIA led panel called the Robertson Panel, which basically came in, and the reason why they came in, we’ll, it’ll be coming up later in, in the line of questioning.

00:28:56:17 – 00:29:32:19
Rob Kristoffersen
And then it pertains to an episode like the last episode in the season. But they came in, they assessed the work of, Project Bluebook, and they basically determined that, like Project Grudge, they had to now downplay reports in order to keep the public calm. So, in order to prevent mass hysteria, they were going to have to misidentify things and, essentially Project Blue Book from 1953 onwards became Project Grudge all over again.

00:29:32:21 – 00:30:17:15
Rob Kristoffersen
But Hynek was there. He was he was doing the best that he could. He couldn’t really come forward and say what he wanted and not. Or he would be losing access to the Project Blue Book Files, which at the time were the best place to get UFO files from. There weren’t civilian organizations as of yet. They would pop up not long after, but, essentially in 53, that was a turning point for Hynek, where he had started to change from this total skeptic there to debunk reports to, okay, now I’m being told that I can’t do my job properly.

00:30:17:20 – 00:30:41:23
Rob Kristoffersen
I don’t like this, so I don’t really trust the CIA at this point. And, he would essentially go through this metamorphosis over time where he would become a believer in the phenomenon. So the way that they kind of depict it in the show, his turn doesn’t happen that quickly, but, it does it does happen over time.

00:30:41:25 – 00:30:57:08
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Yeah. It sounds like they, again, we see this a lot in movies and TV shows where they simplified it. It sounds like they just gave him an experience. Instead of trying to explain the CIA panel and all of these other, aspects, perhaps.

00:30:57:10 – 00:31:26:11
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah. Absolutely. And, the Lubbock Lights photographs are real photographs. I do believe the ones they show in the actual episode are the real Lubbock Light photographs. And, that case took place in early 51. That was during the transitionary period from when Rupert was coming in. But, that was a case that stumped a lot of people.

00:31:26:13 – 00:31:50:18
Rob Kristoffersen
There were scientists that studied it, and, the the individual that actually took the photographs. He was a student, I do believe, at one of the universities. They took these photographs over a couple different nights, but they essentially show a group of lights in an arrow type shape, in passing over the skies of Lubbock, Texas.

00:31:50:18 – 00:31:55:19
Rob Kristoffersen
It’s, it’s really fascinating case. Then, go look up those photos online.

00:31:55:19 – 00:31:56:20
Sean Jablonski
They’re fun.

00:31:56:22 – 00:32:14:26
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. And in, in the show, don’t they kind of pass it off as possibly a flock of birds or something like that, reflecting off lights. Was that a, an excuse or a, natural reason that was kind of thrown around there as one of the possibilities.

00:32:14:29 – 00:32:42:22
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah, that was an actual reason that, investigators pinned, and they did end up doing a test and taking photographs. And what happened was you could see one speck of light from one bird. There wasn’t enough, reflection to actually pick it up. So it’s not clear exactly what the Lubbock lights were. They actually traveled quite fast.

00:32:42:25 – 00:32:51:11
Rob Kristoffersen
They determined, when they flew over them, that they were traveling at somewhere near 1800 miles an hour or so. Pretty sure birds can’t do that.

00:32:51:18 – 00:32:55:04
Sean Jablonski
Not many birds that they come across. Okay.

00:32:55:06 – 00:32:58:21
Dan LeFebvre
I hope not. At least that would be, the fast flying birds.

00:32:58:24 – 00:32:59:08
Rob Kristoffersen
That is a.

00:32:59:08 – 00:33:02:14
Sean Jablonski
Flat like work.

00:33:02:16 – 00:33:33:02
Dan LeFebvre
Well, the the next episode, episode number four, brings in Operation Paperclip. And this is when we’re introduced to Verner von Braun. He is a former Nazi who built the V-2 rocket and post-World War II two. He’s heading up America’s space program. So Doctor Quinn and or. I’m sorry, doctor Hynek and Captain Quinn get a firsthand look at von Braun’s work, as they think that maybe one of the UFOs that they’re investigating is just one of his rockets, and it’s a top secret rocket.

00:33:33:04 – 00:34:00:17
Dan LeFebvre
So during this on the show, von Braun pulls Doctor Hynek aside and offers him a job to work with him. But Doctor Hynek doesn’t trust the former Nazi. I wonder why. But then, regardless, von Braun tells Doctor Hynek that he can’t explain the sightings. He knows about anybody. He can’t explain them. And then at the end of the episode, we see von Braun overseeing a test with an American pilot being forced into a giant flying saucer.

00:34:00:19 – 00:34:23:12
Dan LeFebvre
And as the saucer starts to take off, there’s some massive rings rotating around it. Obviously, you know, we have some effects going on there and then, you know, poof, it just disappears. And then von Braun simply says it worked like he’s not. The IT show is implying that he’s working on a lot more than just rockets. Can you give us an overview of Operation Paperclip?

00:34:23:12 – 00:34:31:26
Dan LeFebvre
And did Project Bluebook cross with paperclip and take Doctor Hynek to meet up with, Verner von Braun?

00:34:31:28 – 00:34:33:12
Sean Jablonski
So.

00:34:33:15 – 00:35:02:21
Rob Kristoffersen
For Operation Paperclip? Basically, as World War Two was winding down, American, British and Russian forces were racing to scour Germany for military resources, technological advances and anything that they could get their hands on that the Germans may have created, the Germans at the time were known for, really high technological advances, especially in, in rocketry.

00:35:02:23 – 00:35:30:17
Rob Kristoffersen
And, the allies actually discovered a list called the Ozen Berg List that contain the names of every single scientist, that had worked for the Third Reich. Funny enough, they found it in a toilet. So let’s take that for what you will. Okay. The allies, essentially tracked down 1600 scientists and brought them to America. The OSS, the sponge, expunge their records.

00:35:30:19 – 00:36:04:29
Rob Kristoffersen
So they were basically given a slate clean slate to work for the government. And the most infamous individual was, Wernher von Braun. And he is basically the father of modern rocketry. He designed the V-2 rocket, and he was instrumental for us, in the space race. He pretty much got us to the moon. So, I got to say, Dan, I didn’t really expect to find anything because I didn’t think that Hynek had done anything with V-2 rockets or had met Wernher von Braun.

00:36:04:29 – 00:36:21:15
Rob Kristoffersen
But, you brought out the best to me, Dan. So I got to thank you for that. Now, I discovered this blog post on, I think it was Ohio Moo Funds website. And let me tell you, this website looks like it’s from the 90s. I love it.

00:36:21:18 – 00:36:23:13
Sean Jablonski
Hey, nice.

00:36:23:15 – 00:36:55:16
Rob Kristoffersen
And it was written by John Hynek secretary, a woman named Jenny Zeeman, and apparently Hynek worked on V-2 rockets while at White Sands Missile Range after the war. Now, he had imagined he had allegedly met Wernher von Braun at that time. But nothing. Nobody has ever come forward with this information like it’s not even in his biography. And even Heinrich’s closest friends do not know anything about this.

00:36:55:18 – 00:37:07:18
Rob Kristoffersen
So, yeah, apparently he may have worked on, V-2 rockets at one point. So, Yeah, that that’s new information to me, man. So good job.

00:37:07:21 – 00:37:18:07
Dan LeFebvre
Wow. Yeah. No, I mean, there are two high profile characters. I mean, I’m I’m not intimately familiar with Von Braun, but he’s kind of the the face.

00:37:18:07 – 00:37:19:19
Rob Kristoffersen
Of.

00:37:19:22 – 00:37:42:03
Dan LeFebvre
The US after the war, getting a lot of of Nazi scientists to to work on American technology. And for me, he was always kind of the face of that. So when I saw them together on the show, I knew that was something I had to ask, like, did they actually meet each other? Or is this just a show, having two names that people might recognize and using it as an excuse to put those two together?

00:37:42:06 – 00:37:47:15
Rob Kristoffersen
Right. Yeah. And, apparently they did cross cross paths at one point.

00:37:47:18 – 00:38:05:29
Dan LeFebvre
Well, speaking of crossing paths with names, I’m going to ask you another one here, because in the show there’s one point where Doctor Hynek tells Captain Quinn, as you know, he doesn’t trust Von Braun. And he’s like, you know, how do you make a Nazi look legitimate? You have Walt Disney give him his own special and Beemer right into your living room.

00:38:06:01 – 00:38:13:13
Dan LeFebvre
And we see this happen on the show. Did Von Braun and Walt Disney actually team up for a TV special?

00:38:13:15 – 00:38:37:24
Rob Kristoffersen
Oh, yeah, a number of times. The first time was on an episode, what they called Disneyland back at that time. Today, you would know it as the wonderful world of Disney and he appeared on screen to talk about plans for the American government to go to the moon. So, he would also appear in a number of Disney specials after that.

00:38:37:24 – 00:38:51:01
Rob Kristoffersen
So Wernher von Braun was the face, early on of the for the space race. So, yeah, he definitely did team up with, Walt Disney a time or two.

00:38:51:03 – 00:39:17:05
Dan LeFebvre
Wow. That’s that’s fascinating. Wow. Okay, so moving on to the next episode. This is episode number five, and it’s entitled Foo Fighters. And in this episode, we see that Lieutenant Fuller from the very first episode, he’s back. And this time he’s in a group of people who have experienced something similar to him. You know, lights in the sky, maybe not the exact same thing as him, but they’re all similar experiences.

00:39:17:07 – 00:39:46:02
Dan LeFebvre
And Captain Quinn explains the title of the show. He explains that during World War Two, pilots would see lights that they couldn’t explain, and they called them Foo Fighters. That’s why they named the episode that. But in the episode, Lieutenant Fuller and his group of experiencers show Doctor Hynek and Captain Quinn the lights themselves. They bring out this contraption that they’ve built, and they seem to be able to call the lights, to them.

00:39:46:05 – 00:40:12:11
Dan LeFebvre
But Doctor Hynek is quick to dismiss these as just car truck headlights bouncing off the fog in the distance. They’re not really calling them to them. And then at the end of the episode, Doctor Hynek runs across Fuller at a secret hospital in Cedar Rapids, Iowa that’s now abandoned. And Doctor Hynek shows Fuller something and almost immediately, Fuller douses himself in gasoline and sets himself on fire.

00:40:12:13 – 00:40:37:24
Dan LeFebvre
Now, after this, the show cuts to General Harding and General Valentine. This is very stereotypical, secret government. They’re just kind of sitting around this table in, you know, very dark room and just kind of what you would expect for a secret military government, I guess. But, but they talk about how somebody or something must have flipped Fuller’s off switch, whatever that means.

00:40:37:25 – 00:41:01:03
Dan LeFebvre
It doesn’t really explain a lot right there. It just says, oh, it must have flipped him off, which sounds like something else, but that’s. But, in the show, they said, flip the off switch. Now, when I was watching this episode, it was one of the first episodes that I was thinking, am maybe this really wasn’t based on something real.

00:41:01:06 – 00:41:24:27
Dan LeFebvre
After all, the episode itself was claiming that Foo Fighters were was a term used in World War Two, and this is, after all, after World War Two. And so I just assumed that maybe this was the show stretching things, and I got the implication just watching the show, that Doctor Hynek probably never actually investigated Foo Fighters because those were during World War Two.

00:41:24:27 – 00:41:32:03
Dan LeFebvre
And this is supposed to be happening after World War two. Or am I wrong there? Did he actually investigate Foo Fighters like we see in the show?

00:41:32:05 – 00:42:04:25
Rob Kristoffersen
He did not investigate Foo Fighters. He was really busy working on the proximity fuze by that time. But, Foo Fighters were a real phenomenon during the war. And it was experienced by both Allied pilots and axis pilots, and they both believed that this was, technology from both sides being thrown at planes. But, that’s kind of confusing because like, clearly it’s not none of them, you know, claimed responsibility for it.

00:42:04:27 – 00:42:33:17
Rob Kristoffersen
And, if we’re talking about, like, the Germans, the Germans would totally take responsibility for that back in the day. There’s no way that they wouldn’t. But yeah, the Hynek never investigated the Foo Fighters. There wasn’t really a lot of, resources to investigate the Foo Fighters at the time. They there was a brief investigation done by American forces, but they couldn’t come to any definitive conclusion.

00:42:33:17 – 00:42:49:11
Rob Kristoffersen
But, yeah. Doctor Hynek, he was working on that proximity fuze, which I do believe time magazine ranked it as the third best innovation to come from the Second World War.

00:42:49:14 – 00:42:51:04
Dan LeFebvre
What is the proximity fuze?

00:42:51:07 – 00:43:14:08
Rob Kristoffersen
Basically, it’s a fuze that sends out radio waves. And when the radio waves bounce off something and come back and that signal gets shorter and shorter, the bomb basically explodes and realistically, you see that same technology in, like, noise cancellation headphones. Now.

00:43:14:11 – 00:43:16:00
Dan LeFebvre
We have Doctor Hynek to thank for that.

00:43:16:02 – 00:43:17:18
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah.

00:43:17:21 – 00:43:42:25
Dan LeFebvre
So I’m curious though, because in the in the show, when we see Lieutenant Fuller, his off switch flipped or whatever happens there and he it’s a very tragic death. It you know, he sets himself on fire. But if his experience was based on, a pilot named Gorman, I believe you said, was that what essentially what happened to Gorman?

00:43:42:27 – 00:43:57:28
Rob Kristoffersen
No. There’s not a lot known about Gorman, but he seemingly lived a normal life after the Gorman dogfight. He served in the, forces for a little bit longer, and then, went off and did his own thing.

00:43:58:00 – 00:44:26:24
Dan LeFebvre
Okay, well, the next investigation in the show covers green fireballs. They’re sighted over a nuclear testing ground. And Project Bluebook is called in to verify that these are, in fact, meteors, a perfectly natural explanation. But something happens during the investigation, and Doctor Hynek sees the fireballs in the sky himself. And they are very clearly not meteors. Now, with another super secretive character on screen.

00:44:26:27 – 00:44:47:00
Dan LeFebvre
Man, that is simply cast. I had to look them up afterwards, he just to see if he had an actual name. But they just call him the Fixer. He shows up and, Doctor Hynek theorizes out loud that perhaps the green fireballs are some sort of craft monitoring our nuclear testing sites, because that’s where they were seen.

00:44:47:03 – 00:44:53:23
Dan LeFebvre
Can you give us an overview of the the real event that this episode had based on and what Doctor Heinrich’s reaction was to it?

00:44:53:25 – 00:45:23:04
Rob Kristoffersen
Sure. In November of 1948, reports started to trickle in, out in the west of of the phenomenon known as green fireballs. They were at first quickly dismissed as green military flares, but on the night of December 5th, 1948, two separate plane crews, one military and one civilian, in New Mexico, each attested to seeing a green fireball while in the air.

00:45:23:06 – 00:45:41:29
Rob Kristoffersen
Each of them described the object resembling a green meteor, but ruled out meteors when the object basically abruptly turned, turned up, and then leveled off, which I’ve never heard of a meteor doing. But, you know, the those fancy meteors, they just do what they want these days.

00:45:42:00 – 00:45:44:10
Dan LeFebvre
Well, you’ve never heard of birds that fly that fast either, so.

00:45:44:10 – 00:45:46:10
Sean Jablonski
No meaning.

00:45:46:13 – 00:46:17:04
Rob Kristoffersen
So, three days after that sighting on the eighth to Air Force Office of Special Investigations, pilots witnessed similar phenomena while they were in the air. And they described it as resembling a military flare. But it was too big and it was a lot brighter. And then four days after that, a man by the name of Doctor Lincoln LaPaz, he was an astronomer with the University of New Mexico, had his own sighting of the green fireballs.

00:46:17:04 – 00:46:40:29
Rob Kristoffersen
A lot of people were seeing them in and around military bases in New Mexico, mostly. And, he basically was able to triangulate their position over Los Alamos National Laboratory. And in a letter to the Air Force, he stated that they could not be a meteor because it was traveling too slow at the time, and it didn’t have a tail coming off of it.

00:46:41:02 – 00:47:14:19
Rob Kristoffersen
So those sightings would continue from, yeah, November of 1948 until April of 1949, and most of them were centered in New Mexico. Now, Doctor LaPaz was tasked by the government to study the phenomenon. So it wasn’t carried out by this would have been, Project Grudge at this point. Went from project sign to Project Grudge. But the military was growing concerned that this was, foreign weapon, which could, you know, would make sense for them.

00:47:14:21 – 00:47:39:28
Rob Kristoffersen
It seems weapon like. So, a lot of their top secret projects were also conducted in New Mexico. So it makes sense that they would be, interested in it. And there were also similar objects sited over nuclear storage areas in Fort Hood, Texas. So, Doctor LaPaz determined that whatever these objects were, they were not natural.

00:47:39:29 – 00:48:16:00
Rob Kristoffersen
Most, or. Yeah, they were not natural. Most of the sightings were centered. Yeah, really in Los Alamos National Laboratory and many of the staff there, he interviewed and many of them claimed to see these green fireballs. Now, the sightings would become more sporadic after April of 49, but, they still continued on to the point where, in December of 1950, the government decided to set up an instrument observation station at Holloman Air Force Base, and it was only manned by two officers.

00:48:16:00 – 00:48:22:23
Rob Kristoffersen
But they, classified this project as Project Twinkle.

00:48:22:25 – 00:48:57:09
Rob Kristoffersen
So, LaPaz, you know, had other ideas. He felt like this deserved a more rigorous study. And ultimately, when the government was done in 1950, they would downplay the sightings in their final report. But the sightings still continued on after that for a little while. Every witness that saw them claimed that it could not have been a natural phenomenon, which is, you know, rare because you’re talking about trained observers, scientists and the such.

00:48:57:11 – 00:49:20:17
Rob Kristoffersen
Another fun fact about Doctor LaPaz. He had an earlier UFO sighting in 1947. And it was in Roswell, New Mexico. So he may have witnessed the actual Roswell craft crash, maybe, I don’t know, but, it’s just an interesting little tidbit there, but, Hynek, we’re not really sure of what Hynek thought about these.

00:49:20:17 – 00:49:37:27
Rob Kristoffersen
We’ve never gotten any comments from him about it. And the investigation wasn’t carried out by Project Sign or Grudge. It was something that the government was trying to keep under wraps. So, yeah, not really sure what happened and what Hynek thought there.

00:49:38:00 – 00:50:03:26
Dan LeFebvre
Do we know if there were many other, cases like that that were outside of Project Sign or garage or Bluebook? I guess I’m assuming that those projects were the kind of the official official government investigation. And it sounds like this one was kind of, and off the books. Not really. I mean official, but not really official, if that makes sense.

00:50:03:26 – 00:50:10:22
Dan LeFebvre
You know, in that way, to kind of not throw it in with all the others where there are a lot of other cases like that that we know of.

00:50:10:24 – 00:50:42:11
Rob Kristoffersen
Not really. There isn’t a lot of declassified information that I’ve ever come across that really points to additional, government studies. Though Hynek later in his career, after really Project Bluebook was shuttered, he would make these comments that he was like the public face of like the UFO investigations, but he always made it seem like there was something else going on behind the scenes that the public didn’t know.

00:50:42:11 – 00:50:46:21
Rob Kristoffersen
So there’s a possibility that there are projects that we don’t even know about.

00:50:46:24 – 00:50:47:15
Dan LeFebvre
Of course.

00:50:47:17 – 00:50:49:14
Sean Jablonski
Yeah. Okay.

00:50:49:16 – 00:51:11:29
Dan LeFebvre
Well, moving on to the next episode. We’re up to episode number seven, and we come across the first hoax in this series. And according to the show, it’s with a Boy Scout troop leader who claims to see a UFO and even claims to shoot at it and hit the alien that comes out of the craft. And for some time, the Scoutmaster disappears.

00:51:12:03 – 00:51:35:03
Dan LeFebvre
But then he staggers back into town, just as Doctor Hynek is explaining that the lights that they saw were caused by swamp gas. And before long, though, Doctor Hynek and Captain Quinn are able to figure out that the town’s sheriff sent a telegram to Hollywood about having proof about the flying saucer story. And that happened before the scoutmaster came back into town with that proof.

00:51:35:03 – 00:51:49:00
Dan LeFebvre
So it would seem that the sheriff and the Scoutmaster were in on this, trying to make a bunch of money on, what clearly was a hoax, trying to sell the movie rights. Did this hoax really happen the way that we see in the show?

00:51:49:03 – 00:52:17:24
Rob Kristoffersen
Man, this is one of my all time favorite cases. This is a really fun one. This is the case of a Florida scoutmaster by the name of Sunny divergence uncorked on August 19th, 1952. Divergence was, driving a group of Boy Scouts home, when he saw a bright light flash over. It’s a trail called Military Trail near West Palm Beach, Florida.

00:52:17:27 – 00:52:42:19
Rob Kristoffersen
He thought it could have been a stranded motorist or a plane that had gone down. So he pulled over onto the shoulder and basically went in to investigate. He told the three boys that, he was driving home to remain in the car, and he basically took a machete and a, flashlight with him, and he instructed the boys to run to the farmhouse that was nearby.

00:52:42:19 – 00:53:09:21
Rob Kristoffersen
If he didn’t come back in 15 minutes or so from the car, the boys claimed that they could see like a ring of lights, descending into a grove of trees. And they could also see, the flashlight as well. And when they saw that his flashlight had gone out, the boys ran to the farmhouse, and soon an officer arrived on scene and they were, about to commence a search.

00:53:09:24 – 00:53:38:23
Rob Kristoffersen
And it had been an hour or so, but divergence emerged from the, palmettos and was frantically waving his machete in the air and just, like, raving like a mad man. But, according to his testimony, he had been searching for about four minutes when he started to smell this nauseating odor. He also said that you felt like he was being watched, and he next claimed to feel this really intense heat that was coming down from above him.

00:53:38:23 – 00:54:03:12
Rob Kristoffersen
And when he looked up, he could not see the stars above him. There was this object that was just hovering over him, and it was, he described it as a dull black object in the shape of a saucer approximately 30ft in diameter. Divergence moved back from the object. And when he did, he claimed to hear this metallic scraping sound.

00:54:03:14 – 00:54:31:07
Rob Kristoffersen
And when he looked up again, there was this hatch that was opened on the side of the object. He noticed a red light coming from the inside it, and it soon developed into a mist that engulfed his body. And, the divergence lost consciousness not long after that, and he woke up a short time later and he was propped up against a tree, but he couldn’t really remember propping himself up against a tree.

00:54:31:09 – 00:54:57:17
Rob Kristoffersen
And his eyes were apparently so burned that he couldn’t see out of them. But, divergence underwent questioning with the local police, and they had noticed that the hairs on his arms were actually singed. So, they also went back to the area of where it where it occurred, and they discovered burnt patches of grass on the ground.

00:54:57:19 – 00:55:27:02
Rob Kristoffersen
Now, when Project Bluebook was notified, Edward Ruppel went to investigate and he took samples and then had them tested. They found that the soil had only been burnt at the top. So whatever had happened to them, it wasn’t some kind of natural rot from underneath that or anything like that. But Rupert would come to call this entire case a hoax, and in fact, he would call divergence the best hoax or that he had ever seen.

00:55:27:04 – 00:55:47:22
Rob Kristoffersen
He was painted as media hungry and also an opportunist willing to sell his story. But the problem was, is that they were never able to explain how he did it. They were never able to explain the burnt patches of grass, or like they couldn’t explain anything that this guy did. They just did hoax.

00:55:47:24 – 00:55:57:29
Dan LeFebvre
Oh, wow. Okay, so even after the investigation, they’re just like, we’re not going to even bother to try to figure out exactly what happened here. Just assume that he’s he’s hosting it.

00:55:58:01 – 00:56:24:06
Rob Kristoffersen
It those kind of cases. And they were very rare at the time like case cases, something very extreme. It’s on the level of like, a flatwoods monster kind of incident. And the government didn’t really want to get involved with cases like that. And you would see, from time to time that, if they were reported, they would downplay them almost immediately.

00:56:24:06 – 00:56:30:12
Rob Kristoffersen
So, yeah, the government really didn’t want to talk about weird cases like that.

00:56:30:15 – 00:56:52:25
Dan LeFebvre
I’m curious, though, because one of the things that we see in the show, I mentioned very briefly, but, is when Doctor Hynek is when he’s explaining lights, he uses that says it was, caused by swamp gas. And that’s I have to ask about that because it’s something that I’m familiar with from, that movie Men in Black, of course, because they use that an explanation of, you know, swamp gas.

00:56:52:25 – 00:57:05:19
Dan LeFebvre
You know, that’s pretty much the explanation for UFOs. And so I think it’s something that’s kind of caught on in popular culture as a common explanation for UFOs. Was that really an explanation that started with Project Bluebook?

00:57:05:21 – 00:57:32:15
Rob Kristoffersen
It mostly started with Hynek. One of the most infamous investigations that he did occurred in Michigan in 1966, in the Dexter Hillsdale area, for approximately a week, sightings had been taking place in that area. It began on, March 14th, of 66. The police and Washtenaw County first witness strange lights in the sky over, Lima Township.

00:57:32:17 – 00:57:56:10
Rob Kristoffersen
And they chased these lights for a period of time. But, they were outmaneuvered every single time they tried. And throughout the week, people in Washtenaw County reported seeing similar objects in the sky. Some went on to report them as resembling like a spinning top. But the culmination of these sightings occurred two nights, later that week, on March 20th.

00:57:56:12 – 00:58:20:06
Rob Kristoffersen
Frank Manor of Dexter Township reportedly saw a strange object in the swamp behind his home. He described it resembling a pyramid with a porthole on it, from which this bluish green light was emitting. And then the next night, at nearby Hillsdale College, over 80 female students witnessed a strange light rising and falling in a swamp near their dorm.

00:58:20:09 – 00:58:49:28
Rob Kristoffersen
Hynek was sent to investigate that case and was basically forced to conduct a rushed investigation. He didn’t have a lot of time and, was forced to give a press conference. One of the witnesses in that case had mentioned that at first, because they ended up witnessing what the girls did at the college dorm room in Hillsdale believed it to be at first swamp gas, which is a real phenomenon.

00:58:49:28 – 00:59:45:07
Rob Kristoffersen
Basically, what happens in a swamp is when vegetation is dying, it will release methane into the air. And sometimes, you’ll basically see like a, short flash of light that it creates. So Hynek basically was forced to say that what happened in Dexter Hillsdale was swamp gas, and he was ridiculed heavily for it. And in fact, it was his determination on that case that really shuttered Project Bluebook toward the end, because what happened was, I believe he was governor at the time, Gerald Ford, he was not happy with the determination that Hynek came to and basically ordered for a panel and an independent panel of people to investigate UFO sightings.

00:59:45:07 – 01:00:17:04
Rob Kristoffersen
And this led to the Condon Committee, a, group of scientists out of the University of Colorado that studied UFOs for a couple of years and ultimately determined that, UFOs were not a threat to national security. In fact, they couldn’t determine what they were at all. And, that was the end of Project Blue Book. So the swamp gas thing is essentially Doctor Hynek probably most fumbling move during his time at Project Blue Book.

01:00:17:06 – 01:00:48:07
Dan LeFebvre
Going back to the TV show, the Nixon investigation that we see when I was when I was watching this, it really started to turn the entire series a little more sinister in my mind. It gave the idea that the military is trying to cover up some psychological tests that they’re doing on their own soldiers. We see a group of Army soldiers who got a UFO attack on the platoon on film, and we’re watching this.

01:00:48:09 – 01:01:11:20
Dan LeFebvre
Doctor Hynek is watching this, and the and the military is watching this. And that’s kind of the what kicks off the investigation. But then in the end, we find out that the soldiers were shell shocked from experiences in World War Two. And at the end of the episode, there’s a scene where the two generals, Harding and Valentine, are upset that the Secretary of Defense has been testing chemical weapons on their own.

01:01:11:20 – 01:01:15:15
Dan LeFebvre
Soldiers. How much of that actually happened?

01:01:15:18 – 01:01:52:09
Rob Kristoffersen
This incident is based on testimony from a private first class named Francis P wall during the Korean War. This is like one of the most harrowing tales that, you will ever hear. And there’s some really messed up stories from, soldiers during a war about UFOs and such. And, while was stationed near shore, one which, is was roughly 60 miles from Seoul, and his regiment was prepared to bombard a nearby village with artillery.

01:01:52:09 – 01:02:22:22
Rob Kristoffersen
And right before the attack was set to take place, this UFO appeared in the sky right above the village, and, they just started firing off. Artillery burst after artillery burst and, there were shells that exploded right next to this object, but it didn’t seem to take a hit. And, at the time, the object was emitting an orange light and it just was hovering over the village.

01:02:22:24 – 01:02:51:24
Rob Kristoffersen
That’s when wall basically asked his commander for permission to fire at this thing. And when permission was granted, everybody opened fire. The object changed to a blue green color. And it started to make these eerie arcs in the sky. And then it started to shoot beams at these people. They all reported feeling a burning and tingling sensation as the beams of light were shown at them, and were all forced into underground bunkers at the time.

01:02:51:24 – 01:03:24:28
Rob Kristoffersen
They had to take refuge from what this whatever this thing was, most of the men were trucked out by ambulance. They were actually too weak to walk. And doctors, once they got back to a hospital, noted how all of their white blood cell counts were really high. So, they never explained what happened to these men. Some have pointed to, like, a Soviet weapons test, but even that’s kind of out of the realm of possibility, even for me.

01:03:25:00 – 01:03:46:06
Rob Kristoffersen
As far as we know, it wasn’t a government chemical weapons test, but I wouldn’t put it past the government to have done that at any point in history. Like the the government has done some shady stuff in the past. If you want a, a good example of that, there’s a, book that came out, last year.

01:03:46:06 – 01:04:17:11
Rob Kristoffersen
It’s called Poisoner in Chief, and it’s all about a, one scientist’s work during, a project called MK ultra. He was basically tasked with, seeing what if they could use LSD? To basically as a form of mind control. It was a very is a very dark project for the government. So, I really wouldn’t put it past it at any point for the government to have done tests like that.

01:04:17:18 – 01:04:28:04
Rob Kristoffersen
There was the Tuskegee experiment, which I really don’t want to get into, because it was some pretty sick stuff. But yeah, I, I really wouldn’t put it past the government to have done tests like that at some point.

01:04:28:06 – 01:04:29:12
Sean Jablonski
Wow, wow.

01:04:29:14 – 01:04:52:07
Dan LeFebvre
Well, let’s get back to the show then, instead of getting even darker. But, yeah. So in episode nine, Doctor Hynek and Captain Quinn come across their first abduction case. And this is the case of someone named Thomas Mann, who claims that he was abducted by aliens. And there’s a few key things from that episode of the show that I want to get your insight on.

01:04:52:09 – 01:05:25:20
Dan LeFebvre
First is during this episode is when we see Doctor Hynek hypnotize Thomas to help him remember more about the abduction experience. Now, through hypnosis, Thomas is able to remember things that he couldn’t remember otherwise. When I saw this, it hit me that this is similar to what we talked about when we covered the movie communion. When you were a guest on the show to talk about what these strippers experience, there, and I, I wasn’t sure if Doctor Hynek kind of started that idea.

01:05:25:20 – 01:05:46:17
Dan LeFebvre
We get the when I was watching, Project Blue Book, I got the idea that nobody was really familiar with using hypnosis in that way. When he’s using this on on Thomas Mann. So was Doctor Hynek using hypnosis in his investigations? And was he one of the first to do that for abductees?

01:05:46:19 – 01:06:12:22
Rob Kristoffersen
So this episode is loosely based on the Betty and Barney Hill incident, which is, an incident that we recently covered on, a two part episode. And, essentially this New Hampshire couple reported having a close encounter with a strange object within the White Mountains. At one point, Barney had this dramatic sighting in a field, of this object through a pair of binoculars.

01:06:12:25 – 01:06:47:27
Rob Kristoffersen
He claimed to have telepathic communication with the occupants of this UFO. And they also claimed to have, suffered from missing time during this encounter, too. There was, period of time that they just couldn’t account for. They started to conduct their own investigation almost immediately after coming home. And, they read books voraciously, talked to experts, you know, from scientists to UFO investigators, until they ultimately decided that they wanted to explore their experiences through hypnosis.

01:06:48:00 – 01:07:12:24
Rob Kristoffersen
And they ultimately found this individual named Doctor Benjamin Simon. He was a Boston based hypnotherapist and through their work with him, uncovered an abduction narrative that involved the hills being taken on board a UFO, subjected to medical tests, and then returned to their car. Now, Doctor Benjamin Simon, was, pretty heavy hitter when it came to hypnosis.

01:07:12:24 – 01:07:41:01
Rob Kristoffersen
He set up a hospital, and I believe it was Long Island to treat soldiers coming home. From the war, from World War two with, with, all sorts of, mental problems, basically treating soldiers with PTSD before PTSD was known as anything. And he would use hypnosis to do that. Doctor Simon was the first to hypnotize an abduction witness.

01:07:41:06 – 01:08:07:09
Rob Kristoffersen
Hynek didn’t really do that. He did advocate for it in a couple of cases, but, he was, not a trained hypnotist in any way. The, probably the most infamous person to start doing this within the UFO community was a gentleman by the name of Doctor Leo Sprinkle. And, he used hypnosis on a number of, witnesses.

01:08:07:11 – 01:08:33:04
Rob Kristoffersen
And then later on in the 80s, man by the name of Doctor or not? Doctor, just, Bud Hopkins, he was a, New York based artist. He kind of put abduction cases on the map in the 80s by conducting hypnosis sessions and, working with, experiencers. So, yeah, Doctor Hynek never practiced, hypnosis in.

01:08:33:04 – 01:08:33:29
Rob Kristoffersen
Anyway.

01:08:34:01 – 01:08:54:15
Dan LeFebvre
Something else I want to ask you about with that, episode was when we see Doctor Hynek talk about this, a scale that he’s been working on. How’s it, close encounter. The first kind of close encounter. The second kind. Well, that’s what happened to Thomas. Their abduction, and then close Encounters of the Third Kind being even beyond that.

01:08:54:18 – 01:09:03:23
Dan LeFebvre
And that’s a term that I think we’re familiar with it from nothing else. The movie, was was that a scale that Doctor Hynek invented?

01:09:03:26 – 01:09:28:08
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah. Doctor Hynek did invent, that scale. It’s what we call the, Hynek scale these days. There were actually six classifications. The first was a nocturnal light, which is basically your mundane sighting of a UFO at night. And then there is what he called the daylight disc, which is a sighting of an object during the day from more than 1000ft away.

01:09:28:10 – 01:09:56:13
Rob Kristoffersen
Then there is a radar visual sighting, which, is primarily, you know, witnessed by civilians and military pilots. It’s basically when a pilot sees something and it’s confirmed by radar data. And then, we get to the heavy hitters, close encounter, the first kind of the sighting of an object from approximately 1000ft away or less, close encounters of the second kind is a sighting, where an object leaves a physical trace of some kind.

01:09:56:13 – 01:10:24:27
Rob Kristoffersen
So in the Florida scoutmaster case, there was the burnt grass. And even in the Betty and Barney Hill case, there was, really strange readings that they got from their car on the back trunk. They noticed these semicircle, these circles, about a half dollar size that they don’t know where they where it came from. And, they ended up testing the trunk with a compass, and they found that it was magnetized.

01:10:24:27 – 01:10:56:22
Rob Kristoffersen
So that was a physical trace case. And then a close encounter of the third kind is when an object is an object is seen in an occupant of that object to scene. So some kind of humanoid being is seen at the same time. And the interesting thing about, the film Close Encounters of the Third Kind is that, when Steven Spielberg was working on that and he wanted to use that title, he actually had to go through J.L. and Hynek because that was his copyrighted title.

01:10:56:22 – 01:11:04:09
Rob Kristoffersen
So JL and Hynek ended up consulting on, Close Encounters of the Third Kind, and he even has a cameo at the end.

01:11:04:12 – 01:11:11:20
Dan LeFebvre
Oh, nice. Nice. I’ll have to watch that again and and look for him. I don’t remember, because I don’t know that I would be able to pick him out without finding a photo, but.

01:11:11:22 – 01:11:18:00
Rob Kristoffersen
Here’s, here’s the, hint that I’ll give you look for the man with the healthy Van Dike. You will notice him.

01:11:18:02 – 01:11:20:23
Sean Jablonski
Okay.

01:11:20:25 – 01:11:21:28
Sean Jablonski
Nice.

01:11:22:00 – 01:11:43:04
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Well, at the very end of episode nine, in the TV show Doctor Hynek gives, he’s he’s given a head up by that mysterious fixer guy that something’s going to happen in Washington, DC. So he flies there just in time to see a show of lights over DC. Now, in the show, this happens in the middle of the day.

01:11:43:06 – 01:12:05:24
Dan LeFebvre
And then later, Defense Secretary Fairchild, he was the one who was, doing the chemical testing on the soldiers, that we saw in an earlier episode. He’s killed as his car burst into flame just before he’s about to reveal the truth to the world. And then meanwhile, we see that lights come back and the military scrambles some Sf90 force to respond.

01:12:05:26 – 01:12:31:22
Dan LeFebvre
They have trouble keeping up with the objects as they’re flying around Washington, DC. And at the very end of the episode, which is the end of the season, Doctor Hynek tells Captain Quinn that he’s come to the realization that the only way they’ll be able to find the truth is to keep the jobs that give them access to information in more cases, but to convince the government that they don’t believe because that’s clearly what the higher UPS wants.

01:12:31:22 – 01:12:50:27
Dan LeFebvre
They’re given this cover up. So we get the sense that Doctor Hynek is pretty much just going to play the game and keep trying to find the truth. So how well did the TV show explain the lights over Washington, DC and what happened to Doctor Hynek and Project Bluebook after this?

01:12:51:00 – 01:13:19:09
Rob Kristoffersen
So 1952 was a big year for UFO sightings in the United States. Three incidents covered in the first season of the show happened in 1952 the flatwoods monster case, the Florida Scoutmaster case, and the most significant of them, which was a pair of incidents that came to be known as the Washington merry go round, as, Edward Pelt would call it.

01:13:19:12 – 01:13:48:03
Rob Kristoffersen
In July of that year. And over the course of two weekends, objects were seen by numerous eyewitnesses over and kind of outside Washington, DC. The first major incident took place on July 21st, just outside the city. Pilots and radar personnel, reported objects nearby. A pilot by the name of Casey Spearman of Flight 807 described the object resembling a falling star without a tail on it.

01:13:48:05 – 01:14:13:26
Rob Kristoffersen
And then on the 28th, objects were sighted again over Washington, D.C. this time, the Air Force scrambled jets to chase them down, but the objects outmaneuvered them very easily, and Rupert was summoned at the time by president Harry Truman for an explanation, but hadn’t been able to conduct an investigation at that point, and he didn’t have answers for them.

01:14:13:26 – 01:14:42:19
Rob Kristoffersen
So, ultimately, they rushed to call a press conference and quickly quelled all the excitement. The government blamed it on, weather. Yep. That’s right. Weather. But it’s basically because of this incident that the Robertson panel, which I mentioned previously, led by the CIA, was convened and then ultimately decided that UFO reports had to be downplayed.

01:14:42:21 – 01:15:11:00
Rob Kristoffersen
Edward Bruce Pelt would leave a Project Blue Book by the end of 1953 because of it. And, he ended up retiring. He wrote the first, really landmark book about his time, on Project Sign and Project Blue Book. It was called The Report on Unidentified Flying Objects. He actually died very young, at the age of, I believe, 37 of a heart attack.

01:15:11:00 – 01:15:39:17
Rob Kristoffersen
So, yeah, it’s, I think they did a good job of playing up the hysteria aspect. That’s the government was generally operating under the nature of cover ups when it comes to this phenomenon. And when it comes to the UFO history, it’s this question of, you know, you’re tackling this question of whether they downplayed reports to keep the public calm or because the government was hiding something that they had.

01:15:39:19 – 01:16:01:08
Rob Kristoffersen
And it’s never really ever been cleared up. But I’ve always leaned towards the government was just trying to keep the public calm. I don’t think the government really has any, definitive information about this stuff, but you never know. It could be wrong. The government could come out and say, you know, we got aliens hanging out at area 51.

01:16:01:08 – 01:16:02:24
Rob Kristoffersen
I don’t know, you never know.

01:16:02:26 – 01:16:04:18
Sean Jablonski
You never know. Yeah. Yeah.

01:16:04:20 – 01:16:30:04
Dan LeFebvre
Well, in that episode, which is episode ten, when we see in the show his name is Secretary Fairchild, the defense secretary, when he dies of very suspicious circumstances. That led me to think that maybe there was it was based on somebody that might have died in similar circumstances that they showed that. So, so plainly, there was that based on something that actually happened.

01:16:30:07 – 01:16:59:00
Rob Kristoffersen
Secretary Fairchild is based on the first Secretary of Defense, James V Forrestal. Forrestal died in 1949, well before the Washington merry go round. But he died under very mysterious circumstances. He was receiving treatment at the Bethesda military Hospital in Maryland for a mental breakdown, and his body was found having fallen from a great height from his hospital room.

01:16:59:03 – 01:17:42:02
Rob Kristoffersen
It’s unclear if he committed suicide or if he was actually just thrown from the window, but his death has been lumped into, conspiracies involving a group that most likely didn’t investigate UFOs, but was an actual group within the government. And, they were called majestic 12. Most point to majestic 12 as a group that essentially were studying the effects of radiation after bomb tests, but many have lumped them into this government conspiracy where, they were essentially trying to keep, the proof of extraterrestrial life from the public.

01:17:42:02 – 01:17:56:12
Rob Kristoffersen
And many believe that Forrestal was killed, because he wanted to come forward until the public about, extraterrestrial life being real and having visited us. So.

01:17:56:14 – 01:17:58:03
Sean Jablonski
Kind of darker.

01:17:58:03 – 01:18:03:11
Rob Kristoffersen
A little darker in the, in the real sense of, what happened to Forrestal here?

01:18:03:13 – 01:18:24:12
Dan LeFebvre
Well, one thing that we didn’t get to cover that I just want to ask you about real quick, is a storyline that goes throughout the entire show, and that’s the character of Susie Miller. And, in the show, while Doctor Hynek is off on his investigations, it cuts back to home life with with Mimi, his wife, a lot.

01:18:24:15 – 01:18:44:25
Dan LeFebvre
And we get this sense that the character of Susie is a Russian spy of some sort. We hear some, her speaking in Russian over the radio to someone with her quote unquote husband, which we know is not really her husband. We get the feeling that it’s not really her husband, but that’s what she introduces him as.

01:18:44:28 – 01:18:59:16
Dan LeFebvre
And we get the overall idea that they’re probably Russian spies trying to infiltrate Project Blue Book through Doctor Heinrich’s wife. Was there any truth to that side of the whole show?

01:18:59:19 – 01:19:39:14
Rob Kristoffersen
Not really. There was no real, indications that the Russians were trying to infiltrate Project Blue Book. But interestingly enough, Andy Jacobson, who wrote a book about area 51, has this theory that the Roswell crash was a Russian craft designed to basically cause mass hysteria. And what she points to is that, her source claims that, Joseph Stalin really got a kick out of, the Orson Welles War of the worlds broadcast.

01:19:39:14 – 01:20:14:16
Rob Kristoffersen
And so he, he has said, her theory is that he essentially wanted to cause mass hysteria in that kind of way. Of course it didn’t pan out that way. Roswell was the case that was shuttered for over 30 years. So before anybody really started to know, that anything had crashed in Roswell, New Mexico. So, yeah, not not really there there was no real, attempt by the Russians to infiltrate this program.

01:20:14:19 – 01:20:18:18
Dan LeFebvre
Interesting. I never heard that, that possible theory about Stalin there.

01:20:18:20 – 01:20:20:00
Rob Kristoffersen
It’s a wild one, man. It’s a.

01:20:20:00 – 01:20:21:26
Sean Jablonski
Wild one.

01:20:21:28 – 01:20:32:14
Dan LeFebvre
Nice. Well, is there anything from the show that, as you were watching this, first season that you just wish that they had put in their.

01:20:32:16 – 01:20:37:06
Rob Kristoffersen
Listen, Hynek needs a van. Dike. Somebody get a van dike on Aidan Gillen.

01:20:37:06 – 01:20:38:04
Dan LeFebvre
We need it. There you go.

01:20:38:08 – 01:20:41:13
Sean Jablonski
Okay. Awesome.

01:20:41:15 – 01:20:57:03
Dan LeFebvre
Well, thank you so much for coming on to chat about Project Bluebook. I know we didn’t cover season two that much on this episode as we’re recording this, the season is still ongoing, but you’ll have to come back on once that season is over and chat about whatever the events are that we see there.

01:20:57:05 – 01:21:00:00
Rob Kristoffersen
Oh, absolutely man, I’d love to.

01:21:00:02 – 01:21:20:11
Dan LeFebvre
In the meantime, if you’re listening to this, Rob has an awesome podcast that covers a lot of UFO related events in history. Go open up the app that you’re listening to this on and subscribe to Rob’s podcast called Our Strange Skies. Can you give us a little bit of an overview of your podcast and some of the great stories that you cover over there?

01:21:20:13 – 01:21:41:18
Rob Kristoffersen
Sure. So, for a long time I had the impetus to cover, singular UFO stories, and I had seen that nobody really did it. And a lot of podcasters just kept coming to me for, like, content. They just were like, hey, what’s a good UFO case to cover? And I’m like, I’d usually give them something, but I’m like, why don’t I just make a.

01:21:41:18 – 01:21:42:16
Sean Jablonski
Podcast of my own?

01:21:42:16 – 01:22:18:09
Rob Kristoffersen
So I, I created the Strange Skies podcast and we’ve been through a couple of transformations, but right now what we do is, we devote singular episodes or if, some require multi-part episodes to, UFO stories throughout history, from the United States, we’ve covered stories from Brazil and, a few other places, but, we just covered the Betty and Barney Hill incident, the Leilani Suborn incident, which is, another famous, New Mexico UFO sighting.

01:22:18:11 – 01:22:38:19
Rob Kristoffersen
We covered the first abduction case, which was occurred in 1957, in Brazil. And, there’s a lot of great episodes over there. So, yeah, if you want to know more about UFOs, come on over to the, our Strange Skies podcast. We got plenty for you.

01:22:38:21 – 01:22:42:00
Dan LeFebvre
Awesome. And you started a new show recently, too, right?

01:22:42:02 – 01:23:11:02
Rob Kristoffersen
Yes. It’s called the Coda, a music podcast. And every other week I’m joined by my buddy Brian Hastie of the Double Density podcast, and we discuss music news. And, we generally have a main feature or main topic where we discuss something from music. We’ve talked about our favorite opening tracks to an album. We’ve talked about our best albums of 2019, and we recently had a couple of guests on to talk about, a new album that they dropped.

01:23:11:02 – 01:23:17:11
Rob Kristoffersen
So, if you’re interested in music, talk, check out the The Coda, a music podcast.

01:23:17:13 – 01:23:19:22
Dan LeFebvre
Awesome. Thanks again so much for your time, Rob.

01:23:19:24 – 01:23:29:20
Rob Kristoffersen
Well, thank you.

01:23:29:22 – 01:23:47:06
Dan LeFebvre
We have a lot more to go. But I do want to point out that even though Rob was talking about his podcast are Strange Guys that’s not actively in production. Remember that chat with Rob was in 2020? You might still be able to find it online now if you want to go through the archives. If it is available, I’ll be sure to add a link to it in the show notes so you can check there.

01:23:47:08 – 01:24:13:20
Dan LeFebvre
Before we move on to season two of Project Blue Book, let’s find out the answer to our Two Truths and a lie game for season one. And as a quick refresher, here are the two truths and one lie again. Number one, Project Blue Book was the first time the government investigated UFOs. Number two, former Nazi Verner von Braun teamed up with Walt Disney to promote the U.S. space program after World War two.

01:24:13:23 – 01:24:26:23
Dan LeFebvre
Number three, the term Foo Fighters was used by World War II two pilots who saw unexplained phenomena. Did you figure out which one is a lie? I’ve got the answer in the envelope, so let’s open that up.

01:24:26:25 – 01:24:52:24
Dan LeFebvre
And the lie is number one. While Project Blue Book is typically the most popular investigation, the US government had into UFOs, as we learned from Robert, was actually a follow up to Project Sign and Project Grudge. So even though there were a lot of the same people involved in these different government projects, Project Blue Book was not the first time the US government investigated UFOs or what people these days called UAP.

01:24:52:29 – 01:25:21:25
Dan LeFebvre
Unidentified aerial phenomena instead of unidentified flying objects. Okay, now let’s set up another game of Tetris in line for season two of Project Blue Book. Are you ready? Okay, here they are. Number one. In the 1950s, the U.S government illegally experimented with LSD on unwitting U.S. citizens. Number two, the phrase little green men comes from a close encounter in Kentucky.

01:25:21:27 – 01:25:48:02
Dan LeFebvre
Number three, Project Blue Book was commissioned by JFK. All right, I’ll be back after the season two discussion with Rob to see if you got it right. And now here is the remastered version of my 2020 chat with Rob Kristofferson about season two of Project Blue Book.

01:25:48:04 – 01:26:17:15
Dan LeFebvre
All right, well, then, let’s dive into the second season and the first episode of the second season. We’re introduced to the Roswell incident. If there’s one name that just about everyone knows it’s connected to UFOs, it’s Roswell. But that doesn’t mean everyone knows the details of what happened there. According to the show on July 5th, 1947, there was a major storm around Roswell, New Mexico, and then the next morning, a rancher by the name of Mike Connors found a field covered in strange metal.

01:26:17:18 – 01:26:44:19
Dan LeFebvre
By the end of the day, his neighbors were collecting pieces of the debris, and he wasn’t really convinced that it was manmade. So he contacted authorities. They swooped in, but someone leak the story out, it hit the wire. And then it started to run worldwide. Newspapers in Europe even ran with this story. The show doesn’t really say how the authorities shut the story down, but it does say that once Harding got involved two days later, Connors bought himself a brand new car and the town stopped talking.

01:26:44:23 – 01:27:08:11
Dan LeFebvre
So I’m going to assume that they were paid off. The wreckage was flown to Texas, where Harding held a press conference explaining the saucer was nothing more than a weather balloon. Now, I know we could have an entire episode, entire podcast just dedicated to the Roswell incident, but in a nutshell, how? What did the show do depicting the events of the Roswell incident?

01:27:08:13 – 01:27:37:14
Rob Kristoffersen
Well, with this particular episode, the bare bones are there. You know, some details have been changed, but, the storm in question, that starts the episode occurred on the night of July 2nd, 1947. And the man in question, they call him Mike Connors in the show. Well, his real name was Mac Brazel. And on that night, Brazel claimed to hear a strange sound that didn’t quite sound like, thunder and lightning.

01:27:37:14 – 01:27:59:13
Rob Kristoffersen
So, he was the foreman of a sheep ranch owned by a man named JB foster. And the next morning, when he woke up to get started, he discovered a debris field outside. It was about, three quarters of a mile long by about, I think, like 20ft wide or so. So this was a really remote area.

01:27:59:13 – 01:28:20:11
Rob Kristoffersen
The closest town to the Foster Ranch is, a town called Corona, which is about 30 miles away. But, he showed the debris to his closest neighbors, which were Floyd, and were at a proctor who owned the ranch themselves. And, they tried to cut it, and they tried to burn it, but they were not successful in doing so.

01:28:20:13 – 01:28:55:09
Rob Kristoffersen
So, the doctors urged Mac Brazel to report the debris to the authorities. And Brazel ultimately did four days later. It’s not exactly clear why he waited as long as he did. It could have been a combination of the July 4th holiday and the hesitation on Brazil’s part to do anything with it. But, on Monday, July 7th, he brought the debris to the Chaves County Sheriff Department, who in turn notified the Roswell Army Airfield, which is, known today as the Walker Air Force Base.

01:28:55:12 – 01:29:18:10
Rob Kristoffersen
The base dispatch two officers, Major Jesse Marcel Senior and Captain Sheridan Cavett, to actually retrieve the material. They Brazel escorted them to the ranch, and, they actually ended up spending the night there before they headed back into town. They gathered up as much as they could, and they also tried to cut it. They tried to burn it.

01:29:18:12 – 01:29:49:09
Rob Kristoffersen
They also tried to hit it with a sledge hammer, and they found that they couldn’t make a dent with it. So it wasn’t until long after they brought it back that the military swarmed the place. And before Jesse Marcel junior there. Jesse Marcel senior. Sorry, actually brought it. To the, airfield. He brought it home. Where, his son, Jesse Marcel Jr and a few of his other family members claimed to have actually seen the wreckage.

01:29:49:12 – 01:30:18:00
Rob Kristoffersen
Some of them, some of the pieces, Jesse Marcel Jr claimed had, these, like, weird hieroglyphic writings on them that were in, like, this purple kind of script. But he said that it was more closely resembling metal. It’s kind of one of those things that gets debated a lot. But, the, military just swarmed the place and, they actually sent out a lot of this wreckage.

01:30:18:00 – 01:30:44:05
Rob Kristoffersen
It was ultimately going to be flown to, Wright Field, which, later became, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, which is where Project Blue Book was, stationed out of. But, in the meantime, while they were collecting all this stuff, the military decided to send out a press release. And, and the man that made that decision, was a man named Colonel William Blanchard.

01:30:44:07 – 01:31:07:22
Rob Kristoffersen
And he informed the base’s information officer, Lieutenant Walter Hot, to, send a press release into town. And like, he, hot physically brought these press releases to, like, the Roswell Daily Record and a few other places in town, which, seemed kind of odd for the times, considering that they could just send it, you know, via wire.

01:31:07:24 – 01:31:35:04
Rob Kristoffersen
But that’s, like one of the weird parts about this case, one of the tiny, weird things, but, they you that, ends up making the paper, the date, like, later that day saying, you know, Roswell Army Airfield recovers flying saucer. So, yeah, while this was all happening, Major Jesse Marcel, junior, he made a stop at Carswell Field in Denton, Texas.

01:31:35:04 – 01:32:04:20
Rob Kristoffersen
As he was accompanying this wreckage to right field and a gentleman by the name of, Roger Ramey, who was general. He, had Jesse Marcel senior pose with pictures of what, they were claiming was a down weather balloon. And ultimately, the next day, they would, retract their initial headline saying that they recovered a flying saucer and saying, no, it was all just a weather balloon.

01:32:04:23 – 01:32:27:13
Rob Kristoffersen
Now, Jesse Marcel Senior attested to the to the effect that it wasn’t the same stuff. He was saying that, they kind of made up this, mock weather balloon, had them pose with it, but it was not the actual wreckage that made its way to right field. And he went to his grave saying the same thing.

01:32:27:13 – 01:33:15:16
Rob Kristoffersen
Same with, Jesse Marcel senior. What’s interesting about this case is after it was retracted in 47 people, in the UFO community, by and large, forgot about this case for about 30 years. Wasn’t until 1978, when, independent researcher named Stanton Friedman was actually told, while he was conducting an in radio interview that he should talk to Jesse Marcel senior and from there, Roswell has become this big household name when it comes to UFOs and, you know, not trusting the government because the government has changed their mind as to what was recovered on multiple occasions.

01:33:15:16 – 01:33:19:14
Rob Kristoffersen
And, yeah, it’s just this big cultural touchstone now.

01:33:19:16 – 01:33:37:04
Dan LeFebvre
Wow, wow. So the I mean, I’ve seen the, the picture of him kind of, I’m assuming Marcel at on the front page of the paper he’s got holding something in his hand that would then be what they kind of staged as the weather balloon, not the necessarily the material that was actually recovered.

01:33:37:06 – 01:34:04:23
Rob Kristoffersen
Right? Yeah. That’s, that’s what Jesse Marcel both Jesse Marcel claimed is that it was not the same stuff. It was, swapped out. You know, they were trying to keep this thing, you know, on the down low, covered up. And that’s really why Roswell is as big a thing as it is. Because given that the, Air Force has changed their mind as to what it was on multiple occasions, now, nobody really trusts their explanation.

01:34:04:23 – 01:34:39:28
Rob Kristoffersen
So you have a ton of explanations out there. Now, there’s, a book called, area 51. It was written by a woman named Andy Jacobson. And she proposed at one point through one of her sources that what the Roswell wreckage was was a Russian craft that, had been sent over into American territory to cause hysteria because apparently Joseph Stalin was a big fan of, George Orwell’s or, sorry, not George Orwell.

01:34:40:00 – 01:34:40:29
Dan LeFebvre
Orson Welles, the,

01:34:41:03 – 01:35:01:09
Rob Kristoffersen
Orson Welles, for the War of the worlds broadcasts. Apparently, he was a huge fan, according to her source, and that this was a mock thing, dreamed up by the Russian government. That’s probably like the low end of believability on this. But, there are a lot of interesting theories when it comes to Roswell, I think.

01:35:01:09 – 01:35:23:21
Dan LeFebvre
I don’t remember if it was in episode one, but I do remember the the show actually mentioning that very, very briefly. I think that the two generals are talking to each other, and one of them talks about how, the things that Doctor Mengele did to those children and, you know, and the saucer was Soviet propaganda or whatever.

01:35:23:21 – 01:35:46:18
Dan LeFebvre
Like they just kind of imply that that’s what it was was it was Soviet. And then, of course, Doctor Mengele, the, the Nazi, doctor doing something to the bodies to kind of make them look like aliens or whatever it was. I just remember that very, very briefly in, in the TV show. So it sounds like maybe that that’s where that comes from.

01:35:46:20 – 01:35:59:18
Rob Kristoffersen
There are, you know, other theories like that out there. There’s, there’s some that get really, really dark, but, yeah, yeah, it seems like everybody has a theory on Roswell these days.

01:35:59:21 – 01:36:38:14
Dan LeFebvre
Well, heading back to the show in episode number two, it’s the part two of the Roswell incident. And during this episode, we find out about a resident in town named Duncan Booker. And he crashes a massive UFO into the center of town to try to draw attention to what he says is the real story. General Harding agrees to go on TV with Booker to tell the world that this was nothing more than a hoax, but once they go live, Booker’s friend at the TV station starts playing footage of an alien autopsy, and then Doctor Hynek comes to the rescue and he realizes that, oh, you look the studio lighting in the footage is the

01:36:38:14 – 01:36:59:15
Dan LeFebvre
same. This is this footage is a hoax. But then Booker insists that, yeah, they recreated the footage, but it was actually from something that they actually saw. And I thought I remembered something about some alien autopsy footage that showed up quite some time ago, but I don’t remember if it was supposed to be from Roswell or related to that or not.

01:36:59:18 – 01:37:04:23
Dan LeFebvre
Is that real footage, and was it tied to the Roswell incident like the show implies?

01:37:04:25 – 01:37:45:28
Rob Kristoffersen
So the, alien autopsy video was huge. It was a real video that, came out in the, mid 90s. During that time, that’s where UFOs were kind of hitting their cultural balloon. This was when Roswell had really blown up in popular culture, and it was actually all thanks to Unsolved Mysteries. Unsolved mysteries was the first show to really give that case its do so by by this time, aliens and and UFOs are big and they’re appearing on a lot more television shows.

01:37:45:28 – 01:38:20:23
Rob Kristoffersen
And, one of the networks that really ran with it was Fox in the, in the 90s. And, they ran a program in 1995 called Alien Autopsy Fact or Fiction, and it was hosted by, Jonathan Frakes of Star Trek The Next Generation fame. And, a man by the name of race until he came forward saying that he found footage of an alien autopsy and he had at the time been looking through a retired military cameraman’s footage searching for, actually, footage of Elvis for, like, some documentary.

01:38:20:23 – 01:38:57:23
Rob Kristoffersen
And, he claims that he stumbled upon this autopsy of an alien being that he says was one of the bodies at Roswell. So the Fox airs this special, and it is huge. So much so that they re-air it a couple months later and, it kind of just dies down for about a decade. When in 2006 recently claimed that the footage was a recreation of footage that he had seen in 1992, it a degraded so bad that he couldn’t actually save it.

01:38:57:23 – 01:39:35:03
Rob Kristoffersen
So instead he he has this convoluted explanation that, in fact, he actually reshot the footage, recreated everything, in order to like, you know, bolster his claims. But, you know, it’s it definitely didn’t help his case. But, in 2018, a filmmaker named, Spiro Smulders revealed that he was actually the creator of the film, and he claimed that he created the alien sculpture using foam and stuffing the insides with, basically animal parts.

01:39:35:03 – 01:40:02:00
Rob Kristoffersen
So, this video footage kind of keeps, like, reappearing every now and then. There was a, leaked government document, about, I want to say maybe, late last year in which two guys, one of them was a, a high ranking military member. The other had been a consultant with the government saying that this footage was real.

01:40:02:00 – 01:40:06:09
Rob Kristoffersen
But, nobody at this point buys that. It’s actually really.

01:40:06:11 – 01:40:23:03
Dan LeFebvre
Well, it sounds like the show is is taking that concept, but there I mean, this is happening in the. Well, I remember Roswell being in 47, but then, you know, this happening after the fact in the 50s and stuff like that. With the as far as the TV show timeline, it kind of bounces back and forth. But none of that.

01:40:23:03 – 01:40:33:13
Dan LeFebvre
It sounds like if it surfaced in the 90s, it sounds like they’re taking something from decades later and kind of throwing that in there just to add to the narrative.

01:40:33:16 – 01:41:02:13
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah, pretty much, you know, there’s always been like UFO hoaxes. They’ve always been prevalent. The first UFO hoax goes back to 1947, in these kids, and I forget exactly what town they lived in. I think it was called Woodworth, and they ended up at, this is when, Kenneth Arnold had his famous sighting. It was shortly after that, and sometime in July.

01:41:02:15 – 01:41:21:19
Rob Kristoffersen
And these kids mocked up this UFO, and they put it on this one lady’s lawn. And the reason that they put it on that one lady’s lawn is because she was known as the town gossip. And she knew and they knew that, word would get around really quickly. And to the point where the, National Guard actually ended up coming to town and these kids got in trouble.

01:41:21:19 – 01:41:30:10
Rob Kristoffersen
So, I mean, there’s always been hoaxers and there’s always been people trying to make a buck. And, I mean, recently probably made a killing selling video tapes.

01:41:30:14 – 01:41:50:13
Dan LeFebvre
So I wanted to ask you about something that the show has. And when they’re investigating on the show, Hynek and Quinn, they come across a soldier who was at Roswell, and soldiers name is Stuart Terry. He tells them that there wasn’t just one crash site, but there was a second one. And at that second site, Terry talks about how he shot something.

01:41:50:15 – 01:42:08:02
Dan LeFebvre
Later, he recovered the remains buried in his land. And then Hynek and Quinn go to where it was buried, and they find some skeletal remains. But then I think there was a mention as well, where someone mentions how the authorities asked for five child sized coffins. So maybe there was more than just the one being that we see, shown on the actual TV show.

01:42:08:02 – 01:42:16:29
Dan LeFebvre
But what about this concept of two crash sites at Roswell where there were there actually two crash sites with multiple being supposedly found?

01:42:17:02 – 01:42:46:16
Rob Kristoffersen
There have been a few different narratives concerning, you know, the crash saucers at Roswell, one being that the craft in question was hit by lightning over the Foster Ranch, and it created this debris field, and that the actual saucer crashed 150 miles away in a place called the Plains of Saint Augustine in the late 70s, early 80s. As Stanton Friedman was researching this case, he learned of a story through a second hand and third hand sources.

01:42:46:16 – 01:43:18:27
Rob Kristoffersen
A lot of people came forward saying that this guy named Barney Barnett discovered the crash saucer and alien bodies at this place called the Planes of Saint Augustine. And Friedman was never actually able to talk to him directly. He had died, about a decade before he started researching it. But a lot of people came forward, I want to say like maybe 5 or 6 people came forward and said, oh, yeah, Barney Barnett, he told me the story about how he saw these, alien beings in this crash saucer all the way in this at the site.

01:43:18:27 – 01:43:42:27
Rob Kristoffersen
And there was also, allegedly an archeology class that had walked up upon it at the same time that he did. Now, there’s also speculation that what had happened was that there were two saucers that crashed, and one ended up at the planes of Saint Augustine, and the other allegedly crashed 2 to 3 miles away from the Foster Ranch.

01:43:42:27 – 01:44:18:18
Rob Kristoffersen
But nobody’s ever really been able to like and, you know, pin it down to one. And again, that’s what makes Roswell this like narrative that has been built on, over and over again upon time. The child sized coffin portion of this comes from a man named Glenn Dennis. He was a part time assistant at the local funeral home, the Ballard Funeral Home, and he claims to have received a call from the Army Air Force, inquiring about the availability of child sized coffins.

01:44:18:18 – 01:44:42:23
Rob Kristoffersen
He claims to have delivered 3 or 4 of them to the base, and, he also claimed to have ran into a nurse on the base who had witnessed the alien bodies, and even drew a sketch of them on a napkin, of which, Dennis actually recreated. I don’t think like there are photos if you Google Glenn Dennis, you know, alien sketch, you’ll see.

01:44:42:23 – 01:45:03:08
Rob Kristoffersen
You’ll come upon like this. There’s like, four small images on what looks like, you know, a piece of, like, white stationery. I think he ended up recreating it, but his testimony has been called into question, simply by the fact that they’ve never been able to confirm who this nurse was. At the Roswell Army airfield.

01:45:03:08 – 01:45:17:14
Rob Kristoffersen
So, Yeah, these, these are, this just attests to the reason why, Roswell is this, like, ambiguous mound of, testimony at this point, while.

01:45:17:14 – 01:45:38:17
Dan LeFebvre
Moving right along. We’re in episode number three now, and Project Blue Book has a case at area 51. It involves two soldiers, Willingham and Miller. And they were doing a routine patrol when Miller was abducted by a UFO. When Hynek and Quinn get to the site of where it happened, you can see the sand there was turned to glass.

01:45:38:20 – 01:45:52:24
Dan LeFebvre
Other than Roswell, of course, everyone knows about area 51 and how it relates to UFOs and top secret cover ups and things like that. But was Doctor Hynek ever there to investigate an abduction like we see in the show?

01:45:52:26 – 01:46:19:00
Rob Kristoffersen
Abductions were something that Project Blue Book tried to distance themselves from. And we really didn’t get, our first abduction account until 1961, when Betty and Barney Hill had their experience, you know, which we briefly talked about in episode 153. It was the inspiration for one of those episodes, and they tried to, explain away certain portions of their sighting.

01:46:19:02 – 01:46:42:19
Rob Kristoffersen
So, for instance, the only parts that they investigated were the sighting and the actual craft in the sky, which they claimed was, I believe, like an advertising search later, an advertising like plane or something like that flying at like midnight or whatever, which was a really ridiculous explanation. It’s a great time to realize.

01:46:42:22 – 01:46:45:03
Sean Jablonski
Yeah.

01:46:45:06 – 01:46:52:06
Rob Kristoffersen
It’s a great, great time. Let’s advertise to that. That single folk, you know, the single couple that are just driving on the highway, they.

01:46:52:06 – 01:46:54:01
Dan LeFebvre
Call that targeted advertising. That’s that.

01:46:54:01 – 01:46:57:03
Sean Jablonski
One. Yeah.

01:46:57:06 – 01:47:51:14
Rob Kristoffersen
Absolutely, absolutely. But, the only abduction investigated through, like, the guise of Project Bluebook was the abduction of a police officer named Herbert Schirmer in 1967. And it wasn’t exactly investigated by Project Blue Book, personnel, but by an independent body that had been brought in to study the phenomenon called the Condon Committee. And, this arose this committee arose in 1966 after a series of sightings in Michigan to which, Doctor Hynek, probably made the biggest, what many would consider career suicide at that point by, labeling a UFO sighting as the, product of swamp gas, which is where that that term came from.

01:47:51:17 – 01:48:03:05
Rob Kristoffersen
These, sightings occurred in, Dexter Hillsdale in the Dexter Hillsdale region of, Michigan. But this,

01:48:03:08 – 01:48:33:19
Rob Kristoffersen
Shurmur’s case is, is kind of fascinating because he’s a, he’s a police officer with the a, Ashland, Nebraska police Department. He was fluent in multiple language. He was a very intelligent man. And, in this on December 3rd, 1967, he was on a routine patrol. He was, on a rural road when he saw a light, which he assumed to be, a vehicle having trouble.

01:48:33:21 – 01:49:04:06
Rob Kristoffersen
And when he drove up on it, it was a UFO. And he stopped his car. And in the next moment, he appeared to be missing time. But, through the Condon Committee, he was subjected to hypnosis. It was later revealed that he had, been taken on board this UFO been shown around by some really interesting looking aliens, and he was ultimately returned.

01:49:04:06 – 01:49:31:09
Rob Kristoffersen
But, this case, like, caused such an uproar to the point where, Sherman was driving to Colorado, the University of Colorado, where this project was being handled. And during one trip, a group of people actually ended up destroying his car for, no real reason. I still don’t understand it. To this day. It was, it caused it seemed to cause some kind of uproar.

01:49:31:09 – 01:50:03:16
Rob Kristoffersen
But, Shermer ended up serving for a little while longer in Ashland, Nebraska. And then he ultimately moved to the Pacific Northwest, where he, died in 2017. But, there’s actually a really cool graphic novel created about his sighting. It’s called December 3rd, 1967, an alien counter by a guy named Mike. Jessica, and Shermer claimed that, yeah, he he eventually read it before he died.

01:50:03:16 – 01:50:32:13
Rob Kristoffersen
And he claimed that, he had come to see his see his sighting in kind of a religious sense. So, that’s really the only abduction case that Project Blue Book ever gave the light of day. Most of them really went unreported, until the 80s, when, you know, more and more people started to come forward. Before then, you had scattered incidents.

01:50:32:13 – 01:51:02:19
Rob Kristoffersen
Most of them would be, you know, relegated to the, UFO journals and such. But, abductions just weren’t something that Project Blue Book wanted to handle. And really, any incidents involving sightings of alien beings, they would downplay, they would, only investigate certain portions of it, especially when it came to like the UFO sightings itself.

01:51:02:19 – 01:51:09:28
Rob Kristoffersen
But when it comes to animate beings, Project Blue Book said, no, we’re out. We’re done with this.

01:51:10:00 – 01:51:31:24
Dan LeFebvre
Well, it sounds like they’re almost the TV show is almost doing something similar to what they did with the autopsy footage, where they’re finding an excuse to, in this case, bring in area 51, because everybody knows what area 51 is. So we need to have a reason for Doctor Hynek and Captain Quinn to to be there to basically have area 51 on the show because it’s a show about UFOs.

01:51:31:24 – 01:51:33:24
Dan LeFebvre
And so you have to have area 51, right?

01:51:33:27 – 01:52:00:22
Rob Kristoffersen
Area 51 is just kind of the hot gossip around town. And it wasn’t until a, journalist named George Knapp, he started talking to a guy named Bob Lazar and Bob Lazar. He his credentials have never fully been proven, but that has not stopped him from speaking on the record many times, saying that, he had, worked briefly for the government.

01:52:00:28 – 01:52:15:18
Rob Kristoffersen
He had worked like, maybe less than two months, 2 to 3 weeks or so. Reverse engineering. This, UFO, which he, affectionately called the sport model, which, it’s always been kind of funny.

01:52:15:18 – 01:52:19:24
Dan LeFebvre
Oh, cool. They have, like, SUVs and the sport coupe versions and.

01:52:19:24 – 01:52:20:23
Sean Jablonski
Yeah.

01:52:20:25 – 01:52:27:23
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah, I would assume so. You know, like, there’s got to be a caravan somewhere in there. And area 51, I was. Yes.

01:52:27:25 – 01:52:51:01
Dan LeFebvre
Of course you travel in style. I wanted to ask you about something with area 51, because the show kind of gives the indication that, there’s more than just the base there. I think there’s, there’s a scene where we see Doctor Hynek and Captain Quinn. There’s like this massive, complex, massive doors opening in the side of a mountain.

01:52:51:01 – 01:53:06:01
Dan LeFebvre
And Quinn says something to the effect of what we saw back there at the base with just the cover. This is the real area 51. Is there any evidence to suggest that the base that everyone knows is at Cream Lake is just a cover for some sort of massive hidden base nearby?

01:53:06:03 – 01:53:45:15
Rob Kristoffersen
Bob Lazar claimed that he didn’t exactly work at area 51. He worked at a portion of Groom Lake nearby that they called S-4, and S-4 was supposedly this huge underground complex went down for miles, and that’s where they were storing all of these, UFOs that had crashed and that the government was trying to reverse engineer. And they also housed apparently aliens that worked with the US government in the evening, like there are many places, many bases that, people claim aliens work with the government on technology and stuff like that.

01:53:45:22 – 01:54:15:06
Rob Kristoffersen
So, really that extends from Bob Lazar and his claim to work at, S-4. And the interesting thing is, is that George Knapp, in the introduction to, Bob Lazar’s autobiography, which came out late last year, he claims that he called up Nellis Air Force Base and said, is there a nest for, anywhere out there? And the guy’s like, yeah, there is.

01:54:15:06 – 01:54:21:17
Rob Kristoffersen
So it’s like, well, if if George Knapp can call up and ask if there’s an S-4 out there, why can’t anybody do it?

01:54:21:18 – 01:54:23:24
Sean Jablonski
Like, come on.

01:54:23:26 – 01:54:27:02
Dan LeFebvre
I was going to say, is that all it took somebody just picking up the phone and making a.

01:54:27:02 – 01:54:29:19
Sean Jablonski
Call. So it just.

01:54:29:19 – 01:54:41:10
Rob Kristoffersen
Seems to be. That seems to be it like, all you need is a phone and, you know, some in some, you know, liquid courage. And they’ll tell you that S-4 does.

01:54:41:10 – 01:54:43:02
Sean Jablonski
Exist.

01:54:43:05 – 01:55:08:03
Dan LeFebvre
If we head back into the TV show. Episode number four covers an event in Hopkinsville, Kentucky. According to the show, Jimmy J. Shoemaker is in the woods near his house when he sees a UFO fly over and at the house, his entire family sees creatures in the woods. We can see a shot where, his family’s all lined up with rifles, and they’re shooting through through the walls of the house at the creatures outside.

01:55:08:05 – 01:55:30:18
Dan LeFebvre
Shoemaker tells Hynek and Quinn when they get there, that aliens landed there and tried to kill them all. And then later, we find that Shoemaker happens to run a circus. He has monkeys, he has costumes for them, and a green glaze to make it look like alien handprints on the trees we saw. So Project Bluebook determined that this was all a hoax, even though again, we have the same sort of theme.

01:55:30:18 – 01:55:44:06
Dan LeFebvre
Shoemaker is claiming that he was just recreating the things that actually happened. It’s similar to what we saw with Duncan Booker in the Alien Autopsy a couple episodes earlier. So how well did the show do depicting this event in Hopkinsville?

01:55:44:08 – 01:56:10:03
Rob Kristoffersen
The Kelly Hopkinsville incident is one of the most fascinating UFO related incidents. Since the 50s. It’s, kind of one of those cultural touchstones to the point where it inspired a, a character, a Pokemon. So I mean, it’s, it’s one of those cases that, you know, it perks up a lot of people’s ears.

01:56:10:03 – 01:56:36:01
Rob Kristoffersen
So, you know, they got, there’s there’s the bare bones there. It occurred in the hamlet of Kelly in Kentucky on August 21st, 1955, and it occurred on the farmstead of the Sutton family at 7 p.m. that evening. A friend of the family, the the guy’s real name was Billy Ray Taylor, claimed to see a UFO with this colorful exhaust.

01:56:36:03 – 01:57:01:11
Rob Kristoffersen
It passed over him. It hovered near some trees nearby and it came down. And this was as he was going outside to collect some water. Now, these folks, they did not have electricity. They didn’t have running water. They had an outhouse. You know, this is rural life to the fullest. So Billy Ray, he comes inside and he tells everybody, oh, I saw this UFO.

01:57:01:14 – 01:57:27:21
Rob Kristoffersen
You know, it came down, it’s out back. And, nobody believed him. But an hour later, he and, his friend, the one lady was there to visit Lucky Sutton. He lived in the house. They went outside when, their dogs just started to bark uncontrollably. And at first they saw what they believed to be a strange glow coming from behind their property.

01:57:27:24 – 01:57:53:22
Rob Kristoffersen
And as it moved closer, they were able to make out small humanoid creatures about 3.5ft tall. They claimed that its head was, it was oversize, it was round in it, and it had really large ears, which was one of the more curious features of this creature, because you don’t often see ears reported on aliens. But, in this case, we do.

01:57:53:24 – 01:58:21:09
Rob Kristoffersen
And their arms were almost as long as its entire body. They they hung really low and, its hands had talons on them, of all things. So this thing is scary as hell. They had eyes that glowed, pale yellow color. And the, the two men immediately went inside, grabbed firearms, and pointed it toward the this creature that was coming toward them.

01:58:21:11 – 01:58:53:08
Rob Kristoffersen
And this creature had its hands raised as if it’s saying, don’t shoot at me. But they fired anyway. This creature did a flip. It fled under the cover of darkness and disappeared. Now, mind you, there are 11 people living on this farmstead at this time, and it’s really in a small three room shack. So you have eight adults and three children, and many of them saw creatures appearing at the window after this.

01:58:53:08 – 01:59:18:03
Rob Kristoffersen
So it was about maybe a half hour to 45 minutes later that one of these creatures appeared at the window. They fired again and again. This creature just flipped and fled into the trees. So it fully escalated. After Billy Ray Taylor stepped out the front door and had his hair pulled by one of the creatures who had climbed up on top of the roof.

01:59:18:05 – 01:59:43:22
Rob Kristoffersen
So the family, they all packed inside their house. They holed up for a few hours, listening to the footsteps on the roof, until they eventually fled to their cars and drove to the police station. Now, the officer that accompanied them back, he claimed that these are not the kind of people that would go to the police to solve their problems.

01:59:43:24 – 02:00:14:10
Rob Kristoffersen
So they were really, scared. They were shook up, and they accompanied them back to their house, but all they found were some spent shell casings. There were holes in the, screen windows. But after the police left, the creatures actually came back, and it was so dead. Approximately 2:30 a.m., the matriarch of the household, miss, Glennie Lankford, saw one of the creatures near her bedside window, and it put a hand on the window screen.

02:00:14:10 – 02:00:18:05
Rob Kristoffersen
And I would be scarred for life if I saw it.

02:00:18:08 – 02:00:20:12
Dan LeFebvre
I mean, I’ve seen horror movies that start this way.

02:00:20:12 – 02:00:22:10
Sean Jablonski
This is.

02:00:22:13 – 02:00:46:08
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah, exactly. This. This is a horror movie movie in the making. It’s happening in real time. So it was about 530 when these creatures backed off and they were never seen again. And, the family’s ordeal made national news headlines. And because of the way this case was portrayed in the news, there were a lot of details that were blown out of proportion.

02:00:46:08 – 02:01:14:04
Rob Kristoffersen
Like they, a lot of papers said that there were like, up to 11 of these aliens when, the family claimed that they only saw three of them. But, it’s from this case that, the term little green men is something that, entered the vernacular. And it’s something that kind of exists still today because, if you look at many of the popular images of, alien heads, they’re usually green.

02:01:14:04 – 02:01:39:27
Rob Kristoffersen
And it’s, because of this case, according to documents, Project Blue Book never took an official interest in this case, though Hynek did later write about it in one of his books. But, this, this is definitely, I would say the, the real true to life case is a little more interesting than the way it, was displayed in Project Blue Book.

02:01:39:27 – 02:02:00:00
Rob Kristoffersen
I think the the problem that, they have with Project Blue Book is, there really isn’t a lot of mystery left over when you start to explain everything away. And, you know, I think that’s, one of the fatal missteps of the second season is they just start to explain things more and more.

02:02:00:02 – 02:02:13:18
Dan LeFebvre
One thing they did mention in this episode was, program in the CIA called MK ultra, and they’re supposedly doing some work with precognition. Is there anything about MKUltra, like, was that an actual program?

02:02:13:20 – 02:02:51:28
Rob Kristoffersen
Oh, yeah. Project MKUltra was a real project. It was a CIA funded study pertaining to mind control through the use of LSD and other psychological measures. MKUltra is a whole other can of worms, and like, you could probably do, I could go on for ever talking about it, but, I want to direct people to a few different resources because it is one of the more, it’s one of the darkest, kind of portions to the work the CIA has ever done.

02:02:51:28 – 02:03:22:29
Rob Kristoffersen
But our friends at the Not Alone podcast did a three part series back in 2019 on, MKUltra and just the, the, extent that, that project went to. There is another great podcast that just, made a five part series, on, a Canadian physicians part in that program. It’s called, madness. And that’s from the, the podcast Endless Thread.

02:03:22:29 – 02:03:39:24
Rob Kristoffersen
And it’s a really great series. And, one book I’ll recommend to that just came out last year because more and more people are starting to take an interest in this case. And it’s, a lot of it has to do with the death of a man named Frank Olson, which was the subject of a Netflix series called Wormwood.

02:03:39:27 – 02:03:57:13
Rob Kristoffersen
But, there’s a book that came out last year called Poisoner in Chief by, Stephen Kinzer, which is a really fascinating book. So, yeah, if you really want to see, like, the dark end of some of the, CIA’s research, go check out those things.

02:03:57:16 – 02:04:20:17
Dan LeFebvre
We’ll we’ll leave those for there. And, after the show, if we head back to the TV show and episode number five happens at a place called Maury Island. And according to the show, it happened on June 21st, 1947, two weeks before the Roswell incident. A man, a fisherman by the name of Ernest Reed, was out on Puget Sound checking his traps.

02:04:20:20 – 02:04:41:29
Dan LeFebvre
After about an hour, something appeared overhead. He described it as round. There’s, silver craft with holes in the middle and there were bigger than his boat. There were multiples of them. We see kind of a recreation of it and on the show, and they’re hovering less than 100ft over his boat. But there’s no noise. And then something seemed to go wrong.

02:04:41:29 – 02:05:01:18
Dan LeFebvre
We couldn’t tell if one of the ships was breaking apart or if it was trying to bomb him on purpose. But there’s pieces falling all over hitting his boat. And that’s when he called in a mayday, claiming that he was under attack from alien ships. But then, soon after the event, Reed recanted his story and said he was just trying to get some insurance money for fire damage on his boat.

02:05:01:20 – 02:05:18:13
Dan LeFebvre
And then the show says that this was the first time that, quote unquote, men in black hats were reported. When they showed up to silence the town. How much of that happened? And was this the first time that anyone saw the Men in Black?

02:05:18:16 – 02:05:49:28
Rob Kristoffersen
So this is, the the Maury Island incident is, one of the more controversial UFO cases. But as the story goes, that the gentleman’s name was, Harold Dahl. He was recovering logs in the Puget Sound on June 21st, 1947. That’s when he noticed, six donut shaped objects that were heading in his direction. And one of the objects appeared to struggle maintaining altitude.

02:05:50:01 – 02:06:15:11
Rob Kristoffersen
It dropped to about 1500 feet, and it floated directly over Dahl’s boat. And it started to drop what he claimed was slag like metal down into the sound. And some of it ended up hitting his boat. The debris ended up hitting his son Charles, breaking his arm, and some of the slag actually killed their dog too. Dahl claimed to take a photo of the craft, though.

02:06:15:11 – 02:06:55:06
Rob Kristoffersen
No, it’s never surfaced. Nobody’s ever seen this thing. So, you know, that’s, sketchy, sketchy as hell. But, he showed it to his supervisor, which was a man named Fred Christman. Christman didn’t believe him, though, and he went to investigate it for himself and claimed to have seen a UFO while he was out there investigating. So the next morning, a man wearing a black suit showed up at doll’s house and escorted him to a diner, and he proceeded to recount Dahl’s experience the day before as proof that he knew all about his experience.

02:06:55:08 – 02:07:24:06
Rob Kristoffersen
So Dahl was told by this man, don’t ever speak of it. Don’t ever tell anybody. Otherwise bad things are going to happen to you. So eventually, I mean, Dahl ended up telling his story to to a lot of people, but he eventually recanted his story. But it was investigated by two people. Kenneth Arnold, who I, you know, previously mentioned he was kind of the first, like, independent UFO investigator.

02:07:24:06 – 02:08:01:14
Rob Kristoffersen
And I think people looked to him just because he had a sighting and he was accompanied by a number, another man named captain EJ Smith, who had witnessed a UFO while piloting a passenger plane, sometime in July. They didn’t believe Dahl or Christman, though. The alleged debris that they had, they they had, I believe it was Kenneth Arnold had talked to a couple of, Army intelligence officers who ended up coming down.

02:08:01:14 – 02:08:32:04
Rob Kristoffersen
They were going to escort some of this, debris back to have it analyzed. And shortly after takeoff, their plane actually did go down in the Pacific Northwest. And, there’s been a lot of conspiracies that have come up, because of that. But, the reason this story and the Men in Black Angle itself was popularized was because of a book written by a man named Gray Barker called They Knew Too Much About Flying Saucers.

02:08:32:06 – 02:08:59:07
Rob Kristoffersen
The book featured the Murray Island case and a handful of and a handful of others in which individuals had contact with shady men wearing black suits, telling UFO witnesses not to talk about what they saw. And I think the interesting thing here is that after Dul kind of talked about his experience, he, his work, which was on the Puget Sound, kind of started to dry up.

02:08:59:07 – 02:09:45:22
Rob Kristoffersen
And his son went missing for a period of two weeks and was discovered working in a diner in Montana. And he had no clue how he got it, how he got there. And we know that portion of the story is true because there was an FBI file, opened on it. So there are some elements of this story, which are true, but, I think they’re used to fuel, like the more sensational aspects of this case because, I do believe at one point, Harold Dahl’s wife also attempted to stab him, because of all of the, controversy revolving around the case, you kind of just wanted to cut it out,

02:09:45:22 – 02:10:13:17
Rob Kristoffersen
but, yeah, almost stabbed him. But, this is like, one of the more controversial cases in that not a lot has been proven. And if I recall correctly, Fred Crispin was one of it was actually one of the people subpoenaed by the, Warren Commission when they were investigating, the assassination of JFK. And he has had ties to, the military and I think maybe the CIA.

02:10:13:17 – 02:10:23:23
Rob Kristoffersen
But, don’t don’t quote me on that. Exactly. But, yeah, it’s, it’s a kind of a whole can of worms. The the Maria Island incident.

02:10:23:25 – 02:10:42:13
Dan LeFebvre
Speaking of can of worms, I want to ask you about something else. About the the men in Black, because during this episode, we learn more about someone from season one. And in that season, he was simply known as The Fixer. In this episode in particular, we find out that his name is William and he used to be part of a remote viewing program for the CIA.

02:10:42:18 – 02:11:10:02
Dan LeFebvre
But then he left that program and joined a group simply known as the Men in Black. The idea that I got from this show was that the Men in Black isn’t a part of the CIA or the military, but they still seem to have powerful resources. And after I watched the, the show, this episode and kind of how they explained it, I still really, really wasn’t sure if William left the CIA to start The Men in Black on his own, or if he just joined the already existing group.

02:11:10:02 – 02:11:23:18
Dan LeFebvre
Somehow. I’m sure Men in Black can be, again, entire series by itself, but how well do you think the show did? Just explaining kind of the men in black themselves and who they’re supposed to be.

02:11:23:21 – 02:11:53:00
Rob Kristoffersen
There are a lot of different theories when it comes to The Men in Black. That’s definitely one that these are kind of government agents. Some believe that they are, independent agents that work of their own accord. Some believe that they are actually aliens as, when, during the, Mothman, series of sightings which you’ve covered with, our good friend Sam Fredrickson.

02:11:53:03 – 02:12:18:18
Rob Kristoffersen
They the people had encounters with men in black, and they would act as if they didn’t know what random mundane items were like. Pens. Like, there was one, case in which, the, maid reporter of the town, her name was Mary Hier. She was kind of the woman who led the charge on, reporting the Mothman sightings in the paper, printing the the reports.

02:12:18:18 – 02:12:44:01
Rob Kristoffersen
And she ended up having an encounter with, the strange man who, when he came into her office, he started asking strange questions like, what do you think John Keel would do if I. If, they told him to stop talking about the Mothman and stuff like that. And, at one point he reached for a pen and he was holding it as if he didn’t know what it was.

02:12:44:03 – 02:12:51:27
Rob Kristoffersen
And, Mary Higher said that, you know, he could have the pen, at which point he turned around and laughed and ran out.

02:12:52:02 – 02:12:54:15
Sean Jablonski
So like that. Yeah.

02:12:54:15 – 02:13:21:23
Rob Kristoffersen
There’s a lot of weird stuff around the Men in Black. There is even one theory that, guy named Paul Cornell who wrote this, this comic series called Saucer Country. And in it, his, take on the Men in Black was that, they were actually Air Force agents that would, as part of a hazing ritual, go and harass UFO witnesses that, their reports ended up in the news.

02:13:21:26 – 02:13:45:08
Rob Kristoffersen
So they’d show up on their door, you know, pretending to act like government agents and stuff like that. It’s, you know, there’s a lot of takes on, the, Men in Black and, they never cease to amaze me. Here’s another interesting account from this woman who claimed to be a remote viewer who said, at one point she was going to review remote view.

02:13:45:10 – 02:14:21:18
Rob Kristoffersen
The, Men in Black. So, like, remote viewing is kind of like, it’s sending your, like, body or out into the world to like, kind of like, see things from a distance, you know? So, this woman claimed that, these beings were, extradimensional beings from a different dimension. They, they kind of kept balance, you know, making sure that, evil, aliens didn’t interfere in human affairs.

02:14:21:20 – 02:14:24:00
Rob Kristoffersen
And they also had a ton of paperwork to do.

02:14:24:00 – 02:14:30:18
Dan LeFebvre
Well, it sounds like at least the at least the show is going off one of those theories, even though there’s a lot of them.

02:14:30:20 – 02:14:58:16
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah, there’s so many there’s so many angles that they, had to, work with on this and, they could, you know, go a million different places. And, you know, I’d say I’d say Project Blue Book went to the more mundane route. Now, I had a I had a conversation with, with my buddy Rich Hatem, the guy who wrote, the screenplay for The Mothman Prophecies.

02:14:58:23 – 02:15:21:13
Rob Kristoffersen
And he said that, when they were first, pitching this idea for Project Blue Book, he actually went in, and he was trying to, pitch himself as a showrunner for Project Blue Book. He didn’t get it, obviously, but, you know, it would have been it would have been fitting, seeing as how, you know, he’s, he’s well versed in this stuff.

02:15:21:16 – 02:15:46:25
Dan LeFebvre
Speaking of the show, if we head back, we’re in episode six now, and this is where we learn about the Robertson pal, as well as someone named David Dabrowski. The storyline in the show suggests that there’s a battle between control over UFO investigations between the U.S. Air Force and the CIA. The CIA puts the Air Force on trial with the Robertson Panel, which looks into the validity of Project Blue Book’s work and the hearing.

02:15:46:25 – 02:16:15:18
Dan LeFebvre
It seems no one is interested in really diving into the reports from Blue Book. They pretty much just skim them and then close them as if they already have the answer that they want. And this is just a formality. But that’s when David Dabrowski comes to the story. He convinces Hynek and Queen to let him talk to the panel, where he says that he was directed to be there by beings from another planet, planet Ventus, which is two galaxies beyond ours, and he leaves the room.

02:16:15:18 – 02:16:29:22
Dan LeFebvre
And then Quinn says, we’re doing our part by stopping people like Dabrowski from inciting panic around the nation, from people who might actually believe that they’re telling the truth. How well did the show do depicting this? Did any of that happen?

02:16:29:24 – 02:17:02:09
Rob Kristoffersen
So, the Robertson panel was a real panel. It was led by the CIA. And that did, in fact change Project Blue Book’s mission from, like, an open minded investigation to skeptical debunking. But it didn’t really happen. It didn’t really go down like this. Robertson panel was led, by the head of the CIA’s Office of Scientific Intelligence, and they saw the potential hysteria that these sightings could cause.

02:17:02:09 – 02:17:46:27
Rob Kristoffersen
Life magazine at the time was claiming that, the evidence of alien life was around the corner. They were, you know, pretty, they they believe that alien life was going to show up at any second. And, and in the last episode that I was on, there was a pair of, dramatic sightings, during two consecutive weeks over Washington, DC, that I talked about, that, really got the government a little worried, to the point where they, the CIA felt like they needed to step in and kind of gauge Project Blue Book and dictate its mission.

02:17:47:00 – 02:18:17:01
Rob Kristoffersen
The, number of UFO reports in 1952, right before the Robertson panel came in, went up dramatically. Most years after 1947, they would get like maybe 30 reports a year, 30 to 50. That year they got over 130. So they saw this as a huge concern. And they thought it could be used as, kind of like psychological warfare tactics.

02:18:17:03 – 02:18:45:09
Rob Kristoffersen
So they recommended educating the public on debunking sightings. And, and, you know, this isn’t to say that Dabrowski s character didn’t exist in the UFO, world. In the UFO culture, there were a number of people that were dubbed the contacts who claimed to have contact with Venusian aliens, who wanted mankind to basically get rid of its nuclear weapons to protect the environment.

02:18:45:11 – 02:19:01:24
Rob Kristoffersen
So, yeah, it’s, didn’t really go down the way it did on the show, but it’s, it’s close. I mean, the Robertson panel’s there, but, I as far as I know, there were no contacts that were led in front of the Robertson panel to testify at any one point.

02:19:01:26 – 02:19:28:11
Dan LeFebvre
Okay, well, that was I want to ask you about that, because in the show, the Borowski character, he is claiming that aliens directed him to go help prove the validity of Project Bluebook. But if aliens wanted to prove the validity, couldn’t they just like, show up to the hearings themselves? I think there is even a line in an earlier episode where Captain Quinn says something like, why are all these sightings happening way out in the woods?

02:19:28:11 – 02:19:39:20
Dan LeFebvre
Couldn’t they just come to like, Times Square? Why? Why do they have to be so cloak and dagger about everything? Are there any examples of stories where the the logic like that just kind of doesn’t make sense?

02:19:39:22 – 02:20:10:01
Rob Kristoffersen
So many contacts, especially in the 1950s, had stories like this, and they would also use that kind of similar logic to, in fact, pretty much all of them did. When it comes to these stories, like they’re never truly about going to the government with, this information, it’s usually about like, proving the validity of their own sightings.

02:20:10:01 – 02:20:45:03
Rob Kristoffersen
But I pretty much every single one of them, the Georgia Dembski, who was one of the most well known, contacts of the 1950s, basically, you know, reported the same things. There was George Van Tassel or Lucci, even during the the the Mothman stuff. Woodrow Darren Burger was that type of individual. And, despite the fact that Woodrow wasn’t coming to the government to say, you know, to kind of with the nuclear stuff.

02:20:45:06 – 02:21:07:04
Rob Kristoffersen
A lot of them did, a lot of them did, and a lot of them faked evidence to bolster their claims. And a lot of them made money doing it. So, in the 50s, that seemed to be the contact kind of thing, you know, make money claiming that you had contact with the aliens, that they’re peaceful, but they just want us to cut it with the nuclear crap.

02:21:07:06 – 02:21:28:29
Dan LeFebvre
Back in the show where it episode number seven now, and it is the Curse of the skinwalker. This case takes place at a ranch in Utah owned by the Chapman family. One night, their son, Billy is sleepwalking outside when three orbs of light fly over. And then they fly into the ground, forming a creepy sort of shadow monster or something of some sort.

02:21:29:02 – 02:21:48:18
Dan LeFebvre
The family runs away, of course, because that’s creepy. And, Bluebook is called to investigate. Our heroes are looking at the case. Hynek and coin are told the story of the skinwalker. As legend goes, the Ute nation used to abduct Navajo and sell them on the New Mexico slave market. So the Navajo put a curse on them.

02:21:48:18 – 02:22:14:04
Dan LeFebvre
And the land. And that land happens to be where the Chapman’s ranch is now. Skinwalker is the name of the that the Navajo gave to a medicine man who’s chosen to take the form of an animal in order to inflict pain and suffering on others. The explanation that the show gives for all of this is that the scientists at an Air Force base some ten miles east of the Chapman Ranch, are drilling down in the caverns under their ranch.

02:22:14:06 – 02:22:39:15
Dan LeFebvre
They’re using a high powered water mixture into the fault line, and these release pockets of ethylene gas that can give people oral and visual hallucinations. So it’s quite a connection from the skinwalker to just being a hallucination. But was Bluebook involved in Skinwalkers and this idea that they’re just a hallucination like the show indicates?

02:22:39:18 – 02:23:15:08
Rob Kristoffersen
The basis for this episode is an actual ranch in the Ute Valley of Utah. And, it’s it’s called Skinwalker Ranch. It was owned by a couple named Terry and Glenn Sherman, and they claim to have experienced rather large wolves, strange UFOs, portals, poltergeist like phenomenon, and a variety of other phenomenon on their property. The skinwalker, has kind of become this concept appropriated by from like Native American culture.

02:23:15:08 – 02:23:41:28
Rob Kristoffersen
And it’s largely because of a book called hunt for the skinwalker, which was, chronicled the Sherman’s time on the ranch. It’s safe to say that Project Bluebook never investigated this case and never really would have, either. It wouldn’t be in their wheelhouse at all. They were really more concerned with investigating, like single sightings as opposed to like long term areas and stuff like that.

02:23:41:28 – 02:24:13:16
Rob Kristoffersen
But, yeah, in many ways, this episode seems like a plug for the new show that they had started that was airing after Project Blue Book. The season finale. It was called, The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch. It’s a Brandon Fugal show. It’s, it’s definitely a moment to cash in. That sighting didn’t come. Well, the property didn’t really come to the forefront until, the mid 90s.

02:24:13:16 – 02:24:28:19
Rob Kristoffersen
And really, it didn’t come to the public conscious until about 2006, ten years later. But, yeah, it definitely seemed like more of a money grab. And, Project Blue Book wouldn’t be, investigating a place like this.

02:24:28:19 – 02:24:29:21
Sean Jablonski
Yeah, yeah.

02:24:29:23 – 02:24:52:09
Dan LeFebvre
Well, if we head back to the show, we’re on episode number eight, and it introduces another concept that is familiar with, UFOs. And that would be hangar 18. Hynek and Quinn are told about it by a mechanical engineer named John. He explains that hangar 18 looks more like a storage building than a hangar, but the real lab is six floors deep.

02:24:52:12 – 02:25:09:03
Dan LeFebvre
That’s where they reverse engineer Soviet technology. But this time, John says they have something that’s not Soviet. The suggestion they’re being that it’s extraterrestrial. What is hangar 18? And are there reports of reverse engineering UFOs there?

02:25:09:06 – 02:25:41:02
Rob Kristoffersen
The idea of hangar 18 is actually connected to the Roswell crash, and in particular to a few pilots who claim to have flown wreckage and alien bodies to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. One of them is a man named, Oliver Henderson, who, told his story to a number of, Roswell investigators, claimed that, he actually flew the, the child sized coffins, all the way to, Wright-Patterson.

02:25:41:04 – 02:26:08:05
Rob Kristoffersen
And there’s a World War two flying ace named Marion Black. Mack Magruder, who, also claimed to actually see living alien beings walking around in this, fictional hangar. There is really no hangar 18. It’s just kind of been this myth that has been propagated ever since, like the Roswell investigation. But, I mean, it did inspire a megadeth song, so I that’s that’s got to be worth something.

02:26:08:05 – 02:26:11:01
Dan LeFebvre
It’s gotta be worth something. Yeah.

02:26:11:03 – 02:26:11:12
Sean Jablonski
There you.

02:26:11:12 – 02:26:26:11
Dan LeFebvre
Go. What about the idea that Hynek was there? Because we see in the show that Hynek actually gets there. Is there anything to suggest that Hynek himself was at any place like that?

02:26:26:13 – 02:26:47:03
Rob Kristoffersen
No, no, there’s, Yeah. There’s nothing. It’s, Hynek was really close with his secretary, and he seemed to tell his secretary pretty much everything. There might have been some secrets that Hynek, you know, kept to himself, but, Yeah, I don’t think Hynek visited any kind of facility like that.

02:26:47:05 – 02:27:07:20
Dan LeFebvre
Well, back in the show now we’re at episode number nine, and this case is a Soviet bomber carrying a nuclear bomb that gets cut into by a UFO over Canadian airspace. And Bluebook is called in because the Canadian Air Force doesn’t have a UFO program. So Hynek and Quinn make their way to a small logging community in a place called Hartley Bay.

02:27:07:23 – 02:27:25:26
Dan LeFebvre
Way out in the middle of nowhere, they find the plane along with the two pilots that survived. One is just called Alex, but the other pilots given a full name, Lieutenant Colonel Yuri Alinsky. And that makes me think that maybe Alex is made up, but maybe Yuri is real. How much of this case really happened?

02:27:25:28 – 02:27:55:24
Rob Kristoffersen
So the the actual case that this episode is based on is, it’s a little, it’s honestly a little more terrifying than, than the one on, this, this particular episode. So, on the night of November 23rd, 1953, the U.S Air Defense Command near the US Canadian border detected a blip on radar over Ristic and over restricted airspace above Lake Superior.

02:27:55:26 – 02:28:26:26
Rob Kristoffersen
The Air Force scrambled an F 89 C Scorpion jet from Kinross Air Force Base, piloted by First Lieutenant Felix Moncler and Second Lieutenant Robert Wilson, and from the start, Robert Wilson had trouble tracking this thing once he got in the air and it kept changing course, like, really quick. But with the aid of, ground control, they were eventually able to kind of get a lock on this object, and they pursued it for over 30 minutes, getting closer and closer.

02:28:26:29 – 02:29:03:21
Rob Kristoffersen
Eventually, Michael and Wilson were guided down from 25,000ft to about 7000ft. They watched, the radar operators watched as the, you know, one radar blip chased the other, and a short while later they lost radio contact with Montclair and Wilson, and the witnesses there claimed to see on radar. These two objects merge into one and fly off. Now, Monreal and Wilson have never been seen again.

02:29:03:24 – 02:29:28:27
Rob Kristoffersen
Nobody knows what happened to them. Wreckage from their plane has never been found. They just disappeared. And, you know, there have been some like hoaxers coming forward. There was 1 in 2006. He claimed to be from a company called the Great Lakes Diving Company. They claim that, they walked up, they found something like, you know, a plane in Lake Superior.

02:29:28:27 – 02:29:48:03
Rob Kristoffersen
There was never it was ruled a hoax. But like Moncler and Wilson have never been seen since. And if you look at, McCullough’s, tombstone, his memorial, it’s, it’s explicitly states that he died while in pursuit of a UFO.

02:29:48:06 – 02:29:54:29
Dan LeFebvre
What about the idea? In this episode, we see Doctor Hynek actually neutralize an atomic bomb. Did he ever actually do anything like that?

02:29:55:01 – 02:29:57:10
Sean Jablonski
Probably not.

02:29:57:12 – 02:30:18:06
Rob Kristoffersen
You know, he was, he had worked with rocketry, but I don’t think he had worked with the atomic bomb specifically. And, you know, maybe in a situation, he’d be able to know how to disarm it. But I don’t know. What I love about this show is like, they they kind of treat JL and Hynek as if he’s like a jack of all trades.

02:30:18:09 – 02:30:22:18
Dan LeFebvre
He’s the hero of the show. So of course he’s going to save the day no matter what.

02:30:22:21 – 02:30:23:06
Sean Jablonski
Yeah.

02:30:23:06 – 02:30:25:14
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah, absolutely.

02:30:25:16 – 02:30:56:07
Dan LeFebvre
Well at the end of that episode, episode nine, Doctor Hynek and Captain Quinn get to meet Senator John F Kennedy when he stops by the Project Bluebook office. And the case from Kennedy takes place during Operation Main Breaks. This goes into episode number ten. There’s, massive multinational military exercise. It involves some 200 ships, 80,000 men. And if anything happens during a war exercise that size near Russian territory, it could spark World War three.

02:30:56:10 – 02:31:23:13
Dan LeFebvre
So Heineken, Quinn, investigate aboard USS Wisconsin in the North Atlantic near Norway. They find out that this UFO experience that this, sighting that’s happened, it’s not coming from the sky like all the others, but it’s actually coming from under water. But there’s something else about this. There’s a fishing trawler that was there. It left Shanghai some 11,000 miles away just two days ago, and the fuel tank is still almost full.

02:31:23:15 – 02:31:44:02
Dan LeFebvre
Needless to say, that’s impossible. And at the end of the episode, Quinn takes a mini sub underwater to where the flying crafts are coming from. But the admiral orders depth charges dropped anyway, and the last we see of him is a massive explosion outside his sub. We assume he’s dead, except Doctor Hynek believes maybe he’s not. Maybe he was transported somehow.

02:31:44:02 – 02:31:49:21
Dan LeFebvre
Like that boat from Shanghai. Did any of that happen?

02:31:49:24 – 02:32:18:06
Rob Kristoffersen
Operation Main Brace itself was a real operation. Like the sensational part, you know, definitely didn’t didn’t happen. But, Operation Main Brace at the time, was composed of dozens of NATO organizations that, had sent ships to participate. At the time, it was the largest peacetime military exercise since World War two. And it was meant to, simulate a mock attack on Europe.

02:32:18:09 – 02:32:57:12
Rob Kristoffersen
It was involved, 200 ships, a thousand planes and over 80,000 men. And during this exercise, UFOs were spotted. The first sighting came on September 13th, 1952. The crew of a Danish destroyer spotted a triangular shaped object with blue lights on it, moving through the night sky at high rates of speed. Seven days later, aboard the USS Franklin Delano Roosevelt, a reporter named Wallace Litwin claimed that several pilots and flight crew members saw a silver colored sphere in the sky.

02:32:57:14 – 02:33:23:11
Rob Kristoffersen
Following behind the fleet. There is an actual photo of this object as well, though. Many have tried to debunk it as a weather balloon. It doesn’t appear to be a weather balloon. And, the only, places that it could have been launched from have, denied launching weather balloons around this time. It was also moving way, way too fast to be a weather balloon.

02:33:23:13 – 02:34:03:08
Rob Kristoffersen
An object had been seen the day before of that sighting, on September 19th, as a British meteor jet was returning to an airfield after conducting exercises in the North Sea. And, the pilot of that flight claimed to see a strange silver circular craft following the meteor. They described its movements as that of a falling leaf from a tree, which, is a common, thing reported in a lot of UFO sightings, is that some of these objects appear to be like, doing this slow, the slow falling pattern at times.

02:34:03:10 – 02:34:24:19
Rob Kristoffersen
The objects stopped in mid-air, rotated, and then took off fast away from everybody else. But, yeah, maybe this was a real exercise. They saw some UFOs. I don’t know that Kennedy really played a part in it, but, it is, pretty fascinating. Set of sightings.

02:34:24:21 – 02:34:28:15
Dan LeFebvre
Was Kennedy associated with Project Blue Book at all?

02:34:28:17 – 02:34:54:21
Rob Kristoffersen
No, he was not. There have been, theories that people have suggested, claiming that Kennedy knew alien secrets that he had told them to Marilyn Monroe and that that’s why the both of them were assassinated. But there’s really no, truth behind those statements at all. It’s just, conspiracy theory.

02:34:54:24 – 02:35:16:18
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, I think the this show kind of alludes that it was, I think at the end of episode number eight, there was a brief line of dialog with Daniel Baker in the CIA talking to General Harding, saying, when it comes to the CIA, no one is untouchable, right? It kind of tie in my mind ties. Okay. It’s something with the JFK assassination as a CIA plot somehow tied to Blue Book.

02:35:16:20 – 02:35:51:05
Rob Kristoffersen
Right? Right. And that’s the thing. And that’s also like the ambiguity that the, assassination of John, John F Kennedy is kind of, lended itself to the Warren Commission, really didn’t do a good job explaining themselves and explaining, everything that happened. But, yeah, it’s just it seems like with some conspiracy theories, and the longer that they are around, the more they get added to and the more people come out of the woodwork saying, well, you know, this happened or that happened.

02:35:51:07 – 02:35:59:10
Rob Kristoffersen
Yeah. It’s always it’s always interesting to read them sometimes, but, yeah. So I don’t put a lot of stuck.

02:35:59:12 – 02:36:17:10
Dan LeFebvre
Well, that makes sense. I did want to ask about, I think was in episode three, there was a scene where we saw Heinecke and Queen in a Jeep and a big UFO flies over light, shine down. And then by the time the camera focuses on the Jeep again, Heinicke and Queen are gone, giving the impression that they were both abducted.

02:36:17:12 – 02:36:20:13
Dan LeFebvre
Was Doctor Hynek ever abducted himself?

02:36:20:15 – 02:36:54:18
Rob Kristoffersen
No. You. He was never abducted. He, He. When he came to, present his theories and stuff like that, he was very guarded. He was always very, skeptical. He was never rash to point to one thing. He had his theories and and he had his leanings. But when it came to a case by case basis, he, he would never he would never go there, per se and say, you know, that this is true or that is true.

02:36:54:18 – 02:37:11:19
Rob Kristoffersen
And, given that, Hynek even disputed the one UFO sighting that he claimed to have while looking through a telescope. So, yeah, he’s always been that skeptical kind of guy. But, as far as I could tell, and through all the research, he has never been abducted.

02:37:11:23 – 02:37:34:14
Dan LeFebvre
But we have talked about a lot of different concepts and things that they put into the show, things like area 51 and, and Skinwalker Ranch and these other elements. If you were in charge of this season of Project Bluebook, was there anything that you wish would have made it onto the show that they left out? I think there.

02:37:34:14 – 02:38:03:28
Rob Kristoffersen
Are a lot of other interesting sightings that they could have really gone to. And and like I say with, especially with the Skinwalker Ranch episode, you look at that and you see that it’s, you know, just, kind of a walking advertisement for another show that’s, that’s coming out. But, I’m glad that they included things like the the Kelly Hopkinsville incident.

02:38:03:28 – 02:38:07:18
Rob Kristoffersen
If I could,

02:38:07:21 – 02:38:52:05
Rob Kristoffersen
Trying to think, what would I have them include? I think the Herbert Shermer sighting is fascinating in the fact that we’re talking about a police officer that, claims to have been abducted by aliens. I think that would have been a more interesting case to present. In. That means there’s a case known as the, RV 47 case, and it’s kind of a the one case that many have put up as, like, the best scientific evidence for a UFO because it it literally involved a UFO following a, radar plane in the sky over, like, hundreds of miles.

02:38:52:06 – 02:39:11:25
Rob Kristoffersen
It’s, it’s a pretty fascinating case. Really, I think they did the best that they could with the season, but, Yeah, the. I can’t think of any other cases off the top of my head right now, but, those two are, I think would have made for interesting episodes.

02:39:11:28 – 02:39:18:18
Dan LeFebvre
Well, thank you so much for your time to come on to chat about Project Blue Book season two. I’ve learned a lot. It’s been it’s been a fun chat. Yeah.

02:39:18:18 – 02:39:29:26
Rob Kristoffersen
Thank you again for having me on this. Been so fun.

02:39:29:29 – 02:39:48:19
Dan LeFebvre
And that brings us to an end of the two seasons of the History Channel’s Project Blue Book. But stick around because we still have the chat with Project Blue Book’s creator, David O’Leary and showrunner Sean John Belinski to get another angle of the whole show that’s coming up right on the other side of our Two Truths and a lie game for season two.

02:39:48:23 – 02:40:16:08
Dan LeFebvre
And as a quick refresher, here are they two truths and a lie for season two of Project Blue Book number one. In the 1950s, the U.S. government illegally experimented with LSD, an unwitting U.S. citizens. Number two, the phrase little green men comes from a close encounter in Kentucky. Number three, Project Blue Book was commissioned by JFK. Did you figure out which one is a lie?

02:40:16:10 – 02:40:38:00
Dan LeFebvre
Again, I’ve got the answer in the envelope, so let’s open that up. And the lie this time is number three. As rat pointed out, President Kennedy was not associated with Project Blue Book at all. There has been some speculation that maybe he knew about alien secrets, but there really hasn’t been any proof of that. Okay, now I’ve got one more remastered episode for you today about Project Blue Book.

02:40:38:00 – 02:41:00:04
Dan LeFebvre
Coming up soon will be my chat from 2021 with the creator of Project Blue Book, David O’Leary, along with the showrunner, a Project Blue Book, Sean Job Lynskey. But first, let’s set up one final game of Two Truths and a lie for that episode. Number one, they wrote a season three, a Project Blue Book telling stories beyond the United States.

02:41:00:07 – 02:41:26:11
Dan LeFebvre
Number two, the Roswell Incident was made famous by Project Blue Book number three. David and Sean have both had unexplained experiences. Okay, now let’s hear from David O’Leary and Sandra Belinsky about creating Project Blue Book.

02:41:26:13 – 02:41:49:03
Dan LeFebvre
Or UFO mention either they just won’t believe what you say, or they’ll simply watch it to find a way to tell you that you’re wrong. I can only imagine how difficult that is when you layer that on to the normal difficulties of trying to pitch and create a show that’s based on UFOs. So my first question is simply why Project Blue Book?

02:41:49:09 – 02:41:59:13
Dan LeFebvre
Why did you decide to create a show around UFOs when you could create a show that doesn’t have nearly as much controversy surrounding it? David, as the creator, want to start with you?

02:41:59:15 – 02:42:23:25
David O’Leary
Yeah. Sure thing. And, hey, everybody’s there. And, Dan, thanks for having us. Thanks for having us on. Yeah. You know, I mean, listen, for me, and for Sean as well, I, I, we like UFOs have been sort of a life long obsession interest. I’ve always, always had a deep interest in the subject matter going all the way back to when I was a kid.

02:42:23:28 – 02:42:45:15
David O’Leary
I’m not sure why, but I just, like, was always. You know, fascinated with the unknown. And it always rang true to me. I would watch, you know, Unsolved Mysteries in the 1980s or scare the hell you know, scare the crap out of myself and read Whitley Strivers Communion when I was like 9 or 10 years old. And it just it always felt authentic and true.

02:42:45:15 – 02:43:08:24
David O’Leary
So like especially, you know, some of the more famous cases in terms of, in terms of bluebook, you know, I, I, you know, as I became an adult and moved out to LA and pursued a career in writing and all that kind of stuff, I wanted, you know, this was sort of right before I, you know, to enter 2017 and, like, UFOs kind of really hit the news again.

02:43:09:01 – 02:43:48:01
David O’Leary
And there wasn’t actually, frankly, a lot of UFO stuff on TV. X-Files had sort of come to its end and I become a bit of, of, of a UFO history buff. And Project Blue Book always just felt like such an interesting, ripe sort of world for TV in that it was period. You know, it had all these other interesting elements in the 1950s in terms of the Cold War and the rise of the atomic age and all that kind of stuff, and then just a plethora of like incredible pieces and then really just a focus on the characters who who sort of led that effort with doctor J and Hynek and, Captain

02:43:48:01 – 02:44:10:10
David O’Leary
Ed Peltz, sort of the first director of Project Bluebook boat who basically shifted sides and, and, and became these, you know, adamant believers that there was something worthy of rigorous scientific study here. So, I think it began with that idea of, of could retell, could we tell a story, you know, sort of historical drama through the lens of these characters?

02:44:10:13 – 02:44:34:22
David O’Leary
And, I was fortunate that, like, I guess there wasn’t a lot of UFO stuff at the time. And, I think Project Bluebook presented a certain, certain natural engine with sort of a, a kind of a different case every week with a really interesting sort of backdrop of getting to kind of tell it in this sort of noir 1950s, sort of shadowy sort of way.

02:44:34:22 – 02:44:46:21
David O’Leary
And, and we were just very, very fortunate that, you know, it took some time, but that eventually, it found a home, with eight studios and, and and history.

02:44:46:24 – 02:44:48:04
Dan LeFebvre
How about you? How did you.

02:44:48:09 – 02:45:16:28
David O’Leary
Kind of get involved in this? So I came a little later. You know, once David had, you know, sort of researched and written the script and had connected with, Robert Zemeckis, and I think they had had a series order by that point. And, you know, I’ve been in the television business for it’s like 25 years plus at this point, I think, and so I’ve, you know, every TV show needs to have a showrunner at some point.

02:45:16:28 – 02:45:38:11
David O’Leary
And David is talented as he is. Had not been in that position before. And so if you’re going to start any business, you’re generally going to want somebody who has that experience to sort of be in there and help help guide the process and understand what’s coming up in front of you and how to run a writer’s room and just, just all of the things you’re not going to know if you haven’t done it.

02:45:38:12 – 02:45:59:02
David O’Leary
So, I essentially interviewed for the job, which began with, meeting with David at a diner. And we realized very quickly that, like him, I, I’ve kind of been obsessed with UFOs my whole life. It’s been something that since I was a kid, I remember seeing one when I was ten years old that. Swear to God.

02:45:59:04 – 02:46:17:04
David O’Leary
And so it’s just something I’ve always been fascinated with. So we were trading stories to the point where we stayed so long. I got a parking ticket. And then, of course, you got to go. You got to go through the gantlet of meeting the studio and the producers and the network and all that stuff, and it just felt like such a very sort of natural, match.

02:46:17:06 – 02:46:47:15
David O’Leary
And then we just sort of move forward from there that, you know, we really connected on having the same passion, you know, in terms of that. But, so I’m just happy to have had the opportunity, to meet, you know, someone who shares that, and, you know, in terms of how I look at just even the phenomenon and want to tell those stories, I feel like, I mean, it’s very much in vogue right now for, for people to be talking about UFOs in a very serious way.

02:46:47:18 – 02:47:11:21
David O’Leary
And I think, like any new science and it is a bit of a science now because we’re just starting to discover it, because we have sort of the minds that are being applied to it and the science and the technology, and the, credibility of the people who’ve come forward. But for people to go back to your earlier point, for people who can, you know, when you talk about is there controversy around UFOs or why stir that up?

02:47:11:21 – 02:47:28:19
David O’Leary
Or when people say that, you know, my first question is like, well, what do you know about UFOs? I would ask, like, what do you know about the history of UFOs? Because a lot of people want to throw it off as something, you know, tinfoil hat wearing silly. Like, if they were here, they’d be landing on the front lawn of the white House and blah, blah, blah.

02:47:28:20 – 02:47:52:01
David O’Leary
But when you really understand the history, and the amount of cases and the amount of credible people that have come forward, physical evidence, you know, visual evidence, all of this, it is without a doubt something that exists. And I count myself as a true believer. And the second question I would ask somebody is, what do you believe about it?

02:47:52:08 – 02:48:11:16
David O’Leary
What do you have to believe to believe that it doesn’t exist? You know, and oftentimes people will sort of stumble and go, well, I just think that this would happen if there would be this, that the aliens would have said something by now. And then when you dig into that, you realize it’s just sort of a, a belief people have that sort of based on an like on a feeling.

02:48:11:19 – 02:48:28:23
David O’Leary
Right? Which is just like, oh, I don’t know. I just feel like it wouldn’t happen this way, blah, blah, blah. And it’s like when you sort of dig into that, it’s, I would imagine the way people would have felt before, I don’t know. We discovered bacteria when we didn’t have a microscope. You know, it’s demons inside your body.

02:48:28:24 – 02:48:45:29
David O’Leary
You know, that’s what it’s got to be. And then when the science caught up and we were able to see what was actually going on, there’s still a bridge that has to happen where people have to get on board and understand that the facts that are there and the people that are studying it are not crazy, and then all of this stuff gets borne out.

02:48:45:29 – 02:49:13:22
David O’Leary
So I feel like that’s a very important, pursuit right now, especially in a world where truth is such a, malleable concept. And so I love the idea that David and I, you know, again, I think found, a path and the passion towards wanting to get those ideas out there that it’s, it’s it’s be part of that notion of getting the truth out to an audience.

02:49:13:24 – 02:49:22:10
Dan LeFebvre
What was your interest kind of starting with that? You said you had an experience that at ten, it was that kind of when your interest in UFO started?

02:49:22:12 – 02:49:43:05
David O’Leary
100%, I, I was in, I was in New York City, which, where I grew up and saw lights in the sky moving, you know, silently information. There were these long sort of hexagonal type lights. And I remember very clearly, I can still see it very clearly. The moment where you look up and I’m like, am I seeing what I’m seeing?

02:49:43:07 – 02:49:58:28
David O’Leary
Could it be what I think it is? It has to be something like just this. You go through this whole range of emotions and, and of course, I was a kid, you know, but I still remember it very clearly to this day. So. Yeah, I mean, that’s where it had to start for sure.

02:49:59:01 – 02:50:01:27
Dan LeFebvre
David, have you ever had an experience?

02:50:01:29 – 02:50:25:21
David O’Leary
So I so I had something weird happened to me much later. And it was actually after I sold the, the show, but before the show got picked up to series and I actually, like, didn’t share it for a while, except with like, my wife and like basically I was walking home. It was I was walking home, I lived, I lived, then I lived, kind of near the grove for people living in Los Angeles.

02:50:25:24 – 02:50:40:28
David O’Leary
I was walking home through my neighborhood, and I was weirdly, I had a park a couple blocks away because of street parking, which was sort of a rare thing, and it was a quiet night. It was kind of late. And then the other strange thing was I was actually on the phone at the time, late with a friend of mine, which was also kind of just not use it.

02:50:40:28 – 02:51:04:11
David O’Leary
But I’m so glad I was that I wasn’t by myself, because I think I would have freaked out even more. And I saw what looked like a teardrop shaped sort of self luminescent, almost like a green kind of Chinese lantern emerge from out of the trees, like 25, 30ft above me. And I stopped and I did exactly what Sean does.

02:51:04:11 – 02:51:29:27
David O’Leary
And with so many UFO witnesses do and sort of be like, is that a drone? What is that? I’m not hearing anything like worrying, then I don’t know if this happened or not, but it felt like it started. It sort of stopped and it was kind of flickering and it sort of started to move towards me. And, I panicked and I, I’m on the phone with a friend of mine, and he sort of black, and he doesn’t understand what’s going on.

02:51:29:27 – 02:51:49:05
David O’Leary
I’m like, dude, I’m like. And I duck under it. And then it just sort of like continued on, kind of floating over the, sort of the, like the air I lived in in a sort of two storey house. So it’s just like, you know, like 30, 40ft in the air just over the houses and continued behind, behind, you know, some line of trees and stuff.

02:51:49:07 – 02:52:09:18
David O’Leary
Other than, like, talking to my wife about it, I didn’t share it for like a year. Because I, I don’t know, like, I, I, I like, didn’t want to be the guy with, like, a UFO show who, like, suddenly had this weird UFO variant, but, I eventually, did sort of talk about it because I also realized served to Sean’s point, too.

02:52:09:18 – 02:52:27:13
David O’Leary
And just like in terms of getting the truth out, like, I don’t know exactly what it was. And hey, maybe it was a drone and I was just like, I freaked myself out or something, but it was very oddly shaped, and it was very weird and sort of how it moved. It was sort of like a balloon, like a lit up balloon.

02:52:27:16 – 02:52:49:22
David O’Leary
But, you know, so that that was sort of the, that’s the only time I think I’ve seen something where I really couldn’t identify it, you know? And then I think so much about UFOs is sort of how it makes you feel. It definitely felt strange. Like it felt. It felt like something as opposed to just like, oh, that’s, you know, I just I couldn’t place what that would be.

02:52:49:24 – 02:53:06:23
David O’Leary
Especially because it was like, in the branches of trees and sort of like, you know, and then later on, like, actually when we were doing the show, like we found out there are like, you know, these cases of green fireballs, we even did an episode on them. And that’s a little bit of what it I didn’t actually know that at the time.

02:53:06:23 – 02:53:13:29
David O’Leary
And that’s sort of like what it came out like to me. So I don’t know. I don’t know what that was. Yeah.

02:53:14:00 – 02:53:17:06
Dan LeFebvre
You don’t usually don’t try to fly a drone through the trees.

02:53:17:10 – 02:53:27:27
David O’Leary
Yeah. Right. Yeah. It was very weird. It almost looks like it came out of the tree. Like it was very like I saw it in the branches and kind of emerged from, like. It was very sad. Wow.

02:53:28:01 – 02:53:44:23
Dan LeFebvre
That’s weird. Well, go back to the show. You’ve both worked on shows that are not based on true events as well as, of course, Project Bluebook, which is what are some of the differences in the ways that you approach a show when it’s based on true events compared to a completely fictional story? Sean, me let’s start with you this time.

02:53:45:00 – 02:54:03:29
David O’Leary
Sure. I, I’m going to steal a quote, and I don’t know who to credit it to, but, I you know what I think it was? Mark Twain is like, never let the truth get in the way of a good story. And I think you find that out right away. Now, I’ve had the the the. I tend to love historical pieces.

02:54:03:29 – 02:54:27:03
David O’Leary
I’ve done a few development wise, you know, over the years, Tesla and Edison, the Bonaparte’s. There’s been a couple other in there, and it’s been a bit of a learning curve trying to apply storytelling to what actually happened. And, whether it is the network exec saying, I don’t care, we need better television. And what exactly happened in that moment?

02:54:27:05 – 02:54:31:28
David O’Leary
Or just an instinct from a storytelling point of view? You know, look.

02:54:32:01 – 02:54:33:18
Sean Jablonski
It.

02:54:33:20 – 02:54:56:11
David O’Leary
Taking history and making a story of it. You can do a documentary right there. That’s why they exist. Because and a lot of times there’s great history that you couldn’t write this stuff. But when you’re trying to make a television show and you need to sort of hit your brakes and you need to engage an audience and you want to give your characters an emotional arc, you kind of have to.

02:54:56:11 – 02:55:16:24
David O’Leary
And it sounds like simple, but it’s actually kind of hard. You have to sort of really give yourself permission to, expand on it. Because otherwise you’re sort of I, I remember feeling almost, you know, I definitely had a lot of deference to the history and the people, and you never want to mess with that.

02:55:16:24 – 02:55:38:09
David O’Leary
But at the same time, you have to again, do your job and and sell it to an audience. So, I feel like I’m rambling a little bit, but I just think you have to have the courage to kind of get out there and really tell the story that you’re wanting to tell and have respect for the people in the material.

02:55:38:12 – 02:55:57:28
David O’Leary
But be a little fearless in how you do it. Otherwise, you know, you’re never going to you never going to cross the boundary and just say, nobody’s ever going to say what? What a really wonderfully factually accurate television show. Do you know what I mean? And get you get yourself ratings and an audience. And I even know, like, something like the Queen.

02:55:57:28 – 02:56:21:23
David O’Leary
I mean, how much can they have been in those rooms where those people were talking and understand what was said? And, lastly, I had a really good mentor. I grew up under basically Tom Fontana, who was sort of my mentor into the business, and he said, if you’re going to do something historical, look for those, look at the history, and then find the moments in between that might not necessarily even be written about.

02:56:21:26 – 02:56:45:00
David O’Leary
Get in there and use your writing ability to figure out what could have happened, what could have connected those dots, how could have, though? How could those characters have moved from point A to point B? That’s not being written about, you know? And thankfully, audiences are very forgiving these days. And I, I have to say like, Quentin Tarantino was a big inspiration in a weird way.

02:56:45:00 – 02:57:03:05
David O’Leary
When I saw Inglorious Bastards, I went, wait, you can’t kill Hitler in a theater? That never happened. And yet at the same time, I remember as an audience thinking, this is the most exhilarating thing I’ve seen because it felt like he was having the courage to go. I want to tell the story that’s going to get people excited.

02:57:03:05 – 02:57:27:05
David O’Leary
And I think if you set the table for your audience that way and say, look, this is inspired by true events, we are not telling that, you know, accurately. We’re inspired. You know, we’re inspired by it and doing it. I think you’re okay. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I think we, we we quickly realized is exactly what Sean said, that we needed to put entertainment and emotion first.

02:57:27:12 – 02:57:46:02
David O’Leary
You know what I mean? Like, people are going to tune. Otherwise you’re you’re just going to watch a documentary on Project Blue Book. If you just want to know the facts, you know it’s all there. You can read. There’s wonderful books we have. We’ve read them. What? You know who we need to tell a story that about about people, about human beings going through these events.

02:57:46:05 – 02:58:04:22
David O’Leary
You know, we kind of quickly realize the heart and this, you know, the heart and soul of the show was Hynek and Quinn. That relationship, along with all of our other, you know, sort of six primary leads, the generals, you know, Susie and Mimi, all that stuff. Mimi and Hynek. So, but you know what?

02:58:04:22 – 02:58:33:09
David O’Leary
You what we found a way to do, I think rather hopefully rather well, was take those kernels of truth and, you know, and and put them into and then and then weed them into a narrative yarn that was hopefully enjoyable, entertaining, emotionally evocative, while while having but but also encouraging people to be like, hey, like that. Like every week was a case that really happened, within within an episode, we we’d have little Easter eggs of things that were really going on at the time.

02:58:33:09 – 02:58:59:08
David O’Leary
We’d explore other things that were sort of in the social fabric of the 1950s, bomb shelters and, and, you know, paranoia. And, and you know, this. Yeah. You know, like, people tapping your phones and all that stuff. Russia’s interest, interest in UFOs, all that stuff. So, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. One other quick thing to we also had Paul Hynek, who was, you know, Jalen Hynek son, as a consulting, producer on the show.

02:58:59:08 – 02:59:18:21
David O’Leary
And, you know, that felt like any time we were, you know, doing something that made us a little squeamish or whatever he was, he would always say, which is wonderful. He’d say, I think my dad would love this, you know? And so that really gave us a lot of, you know, permission. It felt like to kind of run with it and get a blessing.

02:59:18:24 – 02:59:19:05
David O’Leary
Yeah.

02:59:19:12 – 02:59:22:21
Dan LeFebvre
Just for that, that topic. Are you talking about UFO? Was it, you know.

02:59:22:24 – 02:59:23:09
Sean Jablonski

02:59:23:12 – 02:59:31:17
Dan LeFebvre
Unexplained. Right. And then government cover ups where obviously we don’t know a lot of stuff that’s going on there. Did you find.

02:59:31:19 – 02:59:32:03
David O’Leary
Bluebook.

02:59:32:03 – 02:59:40:13
Dan LeFebvre
To be more challenging to fill in some of those gaps, then completely fictional? Because there is just a lot of it that we don’t know.

02:59:40:15 – 03:00:01:28
David O’Leary
Did SAR de. I’ll jump in. Yeah. The thing we talked about very early on was that it’s we’re riding a line between we can never say they exist or the show goes away because the whole idea is they’re searching for the truth. Right. So that was always a hard line to kind of kind of deal with. And something we were very aware of every episode.

03:00:02:01 – 03:00:25:11
David O’Leary
And one of the challenges too, is like, you realize it’s not a, it’s not a cop show where you show up and there’s a body, our guys show up and somebody’s saying, no, no, no, I saw it in the sky. You know what it’s like. So how do you how do you tell those stories? In, in, in give it all of that sort of energy and interest and, and, you know, a revelation, every act kind of thing.

03:00:25:11 – 03:00:48:20
David O’Leary
So that’s right. And, and the thing we realized was that we had to thrust our leads and our audience into the case, you know, we had to thrust them into these events to some degree. So things would happen to Clinic and Quinn as they would investigate a case that would often not start with, you know, a civilian witness or a military witness or multiple witnesses seeing something they couldn’t explain.

03:00:48:20 – 03:01:10:11
David O’Leary
It wouldn’t the case wouldn’t be over. It would lead down a rabbit hole of of more revelations. But as Sean said, it’s exactly right. We would always want to walk that line like we’d always have, like a plausible other, answer, no matter how deep. And we went. I mean, there’s an episode early on where we go to, you know, Operation Paperclip.

03:01:10:11 – 03:01:44:12
David O’Leary
We go into, like, the sin base and there looks that it’s like they’re staring at what looks like an alien. An alien in a tank, you know, but there’s an alternate explanation there that’s given as well, so that there was always this sense of like, you know, am I am I seeing you know, which you know, which truth are you going to are you going to believe, you know, because I think one of our goals, too, was obviously we wanted to attract audience members who were interested in this subject matter, but we also wanted to, you know, we were also very cognizant that, like, half the population, you know, you know, doesn’t

03:01:44:12 – 03:02:06:25
David O’Leary
think there is much to UFOs. And we wanted to make sure that we we presented an interesting sort of like dilemma where both sides could be like, oh, maybe, maybe it was maybe, maybe the, you know, the Lubbock lights were plovers, you know, or like, or maybe it was temperature over inversions. In episode 2 in 110, you know, at the in the season one finale or things of that nature.

03:02:06:25 – 03:02:19:18
David O’Leary
So, so that there was always this balance because like, yeah, as soon as you just say it’s, it’s real definitively it’s the mystery is gone. The truth is, you know, that the quest is, is is Oak.

03:02:19:21 – 03:02:20:27
Dan LeFebvre
Park part of.

03:02:21:00 – 03:02:21:21
David O’Leary
Blue Book like.

03:02:21:27 – 03:02:35:18
Dan LeFebvre
From from history was to come up with some of those stories, some of, some of the plausible explanations for that. Was it can you give an example, maybe of a plot point in there where you, you did depart from the history that they.

03:02:35:21 – 03:02:36:04
Sean Jablonski
That.

03:02:36:07 – 03:02:41:06
Dan LeFebvre
Maybe the example that Blue Book gave and had to kind of come up with your own?

03:02:41:09 – 03:03:15:18
David O’Leary
Oh, God. I mean, listen, you know, I mean, well, there were certain threads that we, you know, as far as we know, the high necks were never infiltrated by a Russian. A Russian email a Russian spy, as Claude would say, I don’t know. I don’t think that ever happened. But, you know, you know, so certainly we were adding certain narrative drama, but but like, what is well documented was that Russia was very interested in, in not only their own UFO programs at that time, but in what America knew about UFOs at that time because they were like, is this top secret, you know, technology, things of that nature, that, you know, that

03:03:15:18 – 03:03:45:13
David O’Leary
we have yet to release and we, we always were excited by the idea that, like, oh, the Hynek family could be a soft target into sort of an intelligence gathering mission from Russia about that. And then things obviously complicated from there because even our, even our sort of Russian spy character is sort of become sort of morally torn about like which side she should be fighting for and all those, all those wonderful things, I think from a case standpoint, though, I think we always tried to reverse engineer what became the official explanation.

03:03:45:13 – 03:04:12:27
David O’Leary
You know, like the plovers, like temperature inversions with the stuff over DC. Even, you know, Hopkinsville where, you know, as crazy as it scene with the there was like a monkey that was dressed up in the space outfit that that’s all based on fact. Actually, they’re one of the got one of the guys in the family worked at a circus, and there was, like, monkey trained monkeys there, like, because in a way that’s almost too absurd to make up.

03:04:12:29 – 03:04:46:12
David O’Leary
I would be embarrassed to like bits that in a room. So I think we always started with something, you know, that, you know, we’d kind of reverse engineer it. And again, to go back to your very first question and try to sort of honor what was the initial, you know, truth of the actual story. Yeah. One of the joys of the, of the show for me was like, when we would air, I would like live tweet the show, and I would beforehand kind of put together the list of all the things, all the cool little, like, you know, truth nuggets that we had, we had sort of pulled from here and there and

03:04:46:12 – 03:05:06:28
David O’Leary
maybe turn them in a bit of a blender to tell a cohesive, compelling drama. But so that but really to invite audience audiences to go like, research this, like, hey, this really was a real thing, or like you wanted this case based off this event, so that there was always these sort of like footings that audiences could had and like, oh, okay, great.

03:05:06:28 – 03:05:26:11
David O’Leary
And then they can go off, they can go off and see the case. And then even at the end of every episode, if you watched it on history, there was like a 2 or 3 minute documentary piece about the case that inspired this week’s episode of Bluebook, and that was sort of conceived from the very beginning. Once we landed at history, to draw a line in the sand so that we could clearly be like, listen, we’re not trying to deceive.

03:05:26:18 – 03:05:46:03
David O’Leary
We want to like, tell a cool story, compelling, compelling narrative. But here’s here and then here’s the route of of where this comes from. Now go off and like, you know, do your own research and come to your own your own conclusions. So it was nice to have that other sort of piece that would help plant it in historical context.

03:05:46:06 – 03:05:48:18
Dan LeFebvre
I like what you said, John, about the, the monkeys.

03:05:48:18 – 03:05:50:20
Sean Jablonski
Being that I mean.

03:05:50:22 – 03:06:03:02
Dan LeFebvre
There and that’s one of the things I love about the, the show that I do, being able to dig into some of that, because knowing that that’s based on fact, like that’s, that’s something that somebody could easily look at and be like, oh, what?

03:06:03:07 – 03:06:05:21
David O’Leary
I mean, that’s that’s kind of happened, but well, yeah.

03:06:05:21 – 03:06:07:23
Dan LeFebvre
Actually some of the crazy stuff does.

03:06:07:23 – 03:06:09:03
Sean Jablonski
Happen.

03:06:09:05 – 03:06:34:25
David O’Leary
Yeah. It’s it’s a yeah. And it’s, it’s you know, I think Chernobyl is probably what like the gold standard in terms of trying to sort of tell like an accurate story based on a historical event. And, you know, we again, had to sort of decide early on that we, you know, there’s there is, there’s got to be a slightly different version of the show and, and also just we knew too, that, you know, and David had put it in there.

03:06:34:25 – 03:06:39:09
David O’Leary
There’s so much family. And so going on to that, we could also sort of lean on that.

03:06:39:11 – 03:06:54:28
Dan LeFebvre
Well, you mentioned a couple of them earlier, some of the, stories that you got to cover, like the Lubbock Lights and Operation Paperclip, area 51 even got, high involvement in Close Encounters of the Third Kind. What was your favorite episode in the series?

03:06:55:00 – 03:07:17:14
David O’Leary
Oh, gosh. I mean, I would say, I would say I’m torn between three. I think both Sean and I share deep, deep love of the Close Encounters upset, which in many ways, in some ways feels almost like the culmination of the show. Like you could almost like, like end it there because like, we end we, you know, we end obviously in a very different way.

03:07:17:16 – 03:07:36:13
David O’Leary
But and I was thinking about that actually this morning. Why that that episode registers so much, I think, for all of us. I mean, some of it was just, you know, the magic of it all coming together, intercutting between two different time periods. But I think one of the things for us, too, is it was one of the one of the clearest departures in tone for us.

03:07:36:13 – 03:08:03:09
David O’Leary
We were a rather conspiratorial, dark, noir tone, which is like, I love that tone, like most of the things I write are like sci fi mysteries, supernatural mysteries, like, I, I can’t get enough of that. But this episode, the case is ultimately has this wonderful sort of positive spin, you know what I mean? Like, it’s so much captures a sense of wonder instead of a sense of of fear.

03:08:03:11 – 03:08:20:22
David O’Leary
It sort of it stands out because that’s the other side of this thing. Like, we don’t want to forget that it’s not just about conspiracies and being deceived and and public denial and disinformation, misinformation, all that stuff. But it is about the wonder of what’s out there. And I think that that episode in some ways encapsulated that, that wonder.

03:08:20:24 – 03:08:41:19
David O’Leary
And then and then the other two episodes, I’m really, I really love I love our like, big finale episode. So like, like one town into town for me also stand out as just like cinematic, like movies. You know what I mean? Like, I think I think Sean and I are both really proud of how those episodes turned out as well.

03:08:41:21 – 03:08:59:05
David O’Leary
But I don’t know. I mean, like, I could go on like, we did two quote unquote bottle episodes. I think Sean wrote them both, which are also some of my favorites. That was abduction in season one. And, I forget where we oh, what lies beneath in in season two, in season two, sort of the revelation of who Susie really is and all that kind of stuff.

03:08:59:07 – 03:09:19:00
David O’Leary
And that’s like, that’s we put all our characters just in a room, essentially, and had to tell it, tell an amazing story there. So, I don’t know, it’s hard. I yeah, I love all of them. I definitely the bottle episodes are fun because it’s so character based and, you know, the challenge of we’re a show that has to go out and look at UFOs.

03:09:19:00 – 03:09:47:22
David O’Leary
How do you actually how do you keep people in the house in order to tell the same show? So yeah, those bottle episodes are great close encounters. Yeah, I mean that and and do exactly what David said. The finale’s just there’s so much fun and and and happened you know, that’s the other thing everyone yet like the the Close Encounters based on George Adamski, who was a guy who was just like that character, who we sort of had in the show, which was so much fun.

03:09:47:22 – 03:10:11:02
David O’Leary
And then, you know, Paul Hynek makes a little cameo as a camera operator in the Close Encounters scene, which was so nice as a way, you know, to sort of in homage to his father. And he was saying just even being on that set was meant so much to him. And and yeah, as David put it perfectly with it, it took a break from the usual town and showed the wonder of it, which was wonderful.

03:10:11:04 – 03:10:31:18
David O’Leary
Paul Heinrich’s cameo in an episode about his father serving as a like. There are so many meta parallels because Paul was a consultant for us on the show, and then we did an episode about his father being a consultant for Steven Spielberg, who’s like, Zemeckis’s close friend. It was just like that for me. I’m just like, oh, wow.

03:10:31:18 – 03:10:42:06
David O’Leary
Like, that’s just like some incredible, incredible miracle that that that we were, like, somehow able to, like, pay that, pay that all off and then do it, do its injustice.

03:10:42:09 – 03:10:45:01
Dan LeFebvre
And I’ll just fits perfectly together. Just.

03:10:45:03 – 03:10:45:13
Sean Jablonski
Yeah.

03:10:45:14 – 03:10:46:15
Dan LeFebvre
Almost right itself there. Yeah.

03:10:46:15 – 03:10:47:28
Sean Jablonski
Wow. Okay.

03:10:48:00 – 03:11:10:03
Dan LeFebvre
Well, if there is one UFO related incident and pretty much everyone is heard of, it is the Roswell incident, and that’s the case. You started season two with with, two episodes covering it. Did you feel it? Because that is so popular. Roswell is so popular that it was more difficult to cover than some of the others on the show, like you had to be more accurate to the story.

03:11:10:03 – 03:11:16:09
David O’Leary
And in a way, it was it was hard to do because Bluebook didn’t investigate Roswell.

03:11:16:11 – 03:11:16:26
Sean Jablonski
Yeah.

03:11:16:28 – 03:11:57:12
David O’Leary
That was our biggest challenge at first. You know, was having to go back and you go, well, how can we tell Roswell when it happened, you know, five years before the book was even born? And so we kind of had to have a Roswell 2.0, but you had to take all the facts from the original, and sort of make it feel current, you know, and so that probably more ironically, more than any other episode had the most kind of, I guess, would you say fiction to it because they never investigated it going back and sort of interviewing those witnesses well, after the fact and then sort of making it feel current.

03:11:57:15 – 03:12:18:15
David O’Leary
You know, it was it was intimidating. But, you know, because we’re such research fans and loved the story so much, we knew right away it was a two parter just because there’s so much information in there and, you know, you’ve added with it’s opening season two, you want to be, you know, a big sort of, you know, a way to sort of come back in which, you know, interesting story.

03:12:18:15 – 03:12:39:04
David O’Leary
We, you know, wasn’t our initial impulse to put Roswell as a season opener and that, you know, gradually true, you know, breaking of story and then input from the network, we got to, a place where it was like, nope, we’re doing Roswell to open season two, which was ultimately the smartest choice. Yeah, as a way to sort of bring the show back.

03:12:39:07 – 03:12:55:07
David O’Leary
Yeah. That’s right. At one point and for a while, actually, we would we really wanted to do more island as, as as our, as our opener. I remember that which we eventually, you know, but it all sort of works out like it sort of reveals itself as you break it. Like we found a much better way to do it.

03:12:55:07 – 03:13:19:14
David O’Leary
You know, ultimately down the line, you know, I think that episode was like, I it’s six or something like that. I think 2 or 5. Yeah. Or 205. Yeah. And, but yeah, I think for us, I cracking the case on Roswell just became about, well, you know, we, we done a bunch of research on Roswell and it just became, well, okay, if a town was really, you know, silenced.

03:13:19:16 – 03:13:42:02
David O’Leary
Yeah. And traumatized in this way, what would be the symptoms of that six years later? And once we saw a real. Well, what if somebody was trying to get the truth out of Roswell and staged, like, you know, like this crazy event in the desert where this where, where a saucer allegedly went down and sort of, you know, held the held the US government kind of hostage, like, I’m going to unleash the truth.

03:13:42:04 – 03:14:06:01
David O’Leary
It created a way for like, our guys to go back in there and then, and then the other thing we sort of had the revelation of it was like, oh, what a great character. A journey we can take with no on his character. And as a general returning to a scene of a crime, something that he’s never fully been able to square, and also delineating, you know, for those who watched the episode between Valentine and.

03:14:06:07 – 03:14:07:29
Rob Kristoffersen

03:14:08:02 – 03:14:32:03
David O’Leary
Oh, I’m like, yeah, thank you. Hardy. In terms of like, who knows what and who might really be in control because for season one we play, you know, we we need to sort of be, you know, the face of it a little bit more. But but then we sort of flipped the script a little bit like, oh, perhaps Valentine, who’s more the veteran, more of the senior is actually sort of hiding some things from, from, from Harding as well.

03:14:32:03 – 03:14:43:14
David O’Leary
So is, you know, it just it gradually reveals itself to us as we find, as we found a way to do it, you know, of like, oh, here’s a way to do it that really is interesting.

03:14:43:16 – 03:14:49:23
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. It was really interesting that, I because I think a lot of people, when they think of the government cover up, it’s like.

03:14:49:25 – 03:14:51:07
David O’Leary
The government and they’re.

03:14:51:07 – 03:14:52:10
Sean Jablonski
All in it.

03:14:52:16 – 03:14:58:21
Dan LeFebvre
In it together. And as I was watching it, yeah, I definitely got the sense that even these two generals, they don’t even.

03:14:58:25 – 03:15:02:06
Sean Jablonski
They don’t know everything that the other one knows.

03:15:02:09 – 03:15:08:07
Dan LeFebvre
And so you start to get that sense in there as well. Just really, really, really well done to put that together.

03:15:08:10 – 03:15:32:29
David O’Leary
And so what’s not you know, the general that wound up going into Roswell from outside was Twining, who Harding is based on and was credited a lot with, you know, some of those strong arm tactics that were used in and the idea of when Brazel gets brought onto the base, you know, the idea of somebody who had been in charge of terrorizing an entire town.

03:15:32:29 – 03:15:58:07
David O’Leary
And there’s, again, I’d encourage anybody who has even an inkling of curiosity to go to look at it. There are plenty of firsthand accounts of people who were there. And then you know, are you going to choose to believe somebody saying, I was there? My life was threatened by a military official, and I was told if I spoke, I would be killed and go, okay, there’s dozens and dozens and dozens of those witnesses who came forward and said the exact same thing.

03:15:58:07 – 03:16:22:15
David O’Leary
So you have to ask yourself, am I going to choose to believe they’re all crazy? You know, they’re all making this up for the sake of, you know, a story? You know, it’s fascinating. And also with, you know, Valentine, who was based on Hoyt Vandenberg, you know, ultimately, he went on to be part of the Atomic Energy Commission, which was like an ultra super secret, you know, in charge of our nuclear program.

03:16:22:15 – 03:16:39:13
David O’Leary
And I think he was that did he become head of CIA or was brought into the CIA or something? So it again, it felt like we were fortunate enough to find this truth in the history and really try to bring it out in the in the storytelling. Yeah.

03:16:39:19 – 03:16:57:16
Dan LeFebvre
There is a petition going now to bring the show back for a third season. I’ll make sure to add a link to it in the show notes. If anybody wants to sign it. But let’s say that petition is successful and you’re able to make a third season of Project Blue Book. Have you thought about some other stories that you might like to cover that you didn’t get to in the first two?

03:16:57:18 – 03:17:00:04
Sean Jablonski
David, go.

03:17:00:07 – 03:17:28:17
David O’Leary
Okay, only a little bit right here. Well, some of the fans been murdered, but other listeners may not. We actually had a third season writers room that, ended where we basically broke, all of season three. So for us, it’s been particularly hard, I think, to, you know, and then and then basically Covid hit and I mean, literally like the last day of our writers room was like the day like kind of the world world shut down like it was lockdown.

03:17:28:19 – 03:17:50:20
David O’Leary
In 20th March or 2020, mid-March of 2020. So, yes, I mean, we have, you know, listen, we, we, we would love nothing more than to then to continue that journey. So especially because for us it we for in a weird way, the show lives in our heads. Like a season at the end of season, like we kind of knew where we were going.

03:17:50:23 – 03:18:19:00
David O’Leary
We we mapped out a whole past, and that makes it hard to because I know how, excited we, Sean and I are about that season. I mean, that season, that season is like some of our favorite stuff. And like, we the guys to do it like, so. And I mean, we can tease it a little bit too, because it’s, you know, it felt that, it felt like such a natural progression again.

03:18:19:00 – 03:18:48:02
David O’Leary
Also history on our side. There was the great UFO wave of 1953 54 in Europe. Yeah. And so we decided to go, you know, as you know, to sort of make it bigger and, you know, it a lot of it takes place over in Europe. Because that’s where, that’s that’s where the sightings were. It was it went from like, you know, a handful of sightings in Europe to thousands a day.

03:18:48:02 – 03:19:07:24
David O’Leary
All of a sudden it was like off the charts. And when you dig into the history of Europe and the history of some of those cases, again, it for us it felt like this is what the show is. It is about the phenomenon. And it’s not just an American phenomenon, it’s a worldwide phenomenon. And so we we got to explore some seminal cases.

03:19:07:24 – 03:19:31:02
David O’Leary
And, it really I mean, like anything, it felt like we were hitting our stride and we we broke every single episode. So. Yeah, but there’s some wonderful. Yeah, England, France, Italy, Italy, Russia. Roswell. Yeah. Like it was just like we. Yeah, we it was, it was, you know, heartbreaking. Yeah. It was heartbreaking. Utterly heartbreaking. I don’t really.

03:19:31:02 – 03:19:31:25
Sean Jablonski
Heartbreaking.

03:19:31:27 – 03:19:55:19
Dan LeFebvre
Well I hope hopefully we’ll get to see some of that in the future. But, I wanted to ask you about, Doctor Heinrichs perspective on UFOs, because in the real Project Blue Book, he kind of started pretty skeptical. And then his position changed as he was investigating these. So as you were researching and writing and putting together this, did your opinions change at all?

03:19:55:19 – 03:20:01:22
Dan LeFebvre
I know you were both big into UFOs beforehand, but did it change at all as you were creating the show?

03:20:01:24 – 03:20:41:03
David O’Leary
What changed for me was doing research on Hynek and realizing how smart he was in terms of hypothesizing the multitude of answers that might exist. Right? Even in like, his book, you know, I think, like, you know, the UFO experience or, you know, his numerous books, he, he would hypothesize, you know, like, especially with some of these cases that delve into, like, you know, Close Encounters of the Third kind or, you know, seeing, seeing actual occupants or entities or whatever you want to call them, you know, I mean, he he Hynek entertained every theory under the sun from the day, you know, interdimensional in some way, like the planet is also theirs.

03:20:41:03 – 03:21:21:09
David O’Leary
Somehow today, our interplanetary spacecraft do. They are us in the future today are like I. I remember like you spoke a little bit about sort of the robotic nature of that of the how these creatures are described. Like, are we dealing with artificial extraterrestrial artificial intelligence, right. Like, on and on. And I think that that, that, I mean, I, you know, you know, just I always love that the notion that, like, maybe, you know, the answers could be as complicated, complicated as the questions we could be dealing with a multitude of, sort of phenomena happening simultaneously.

03:21:21:09 – 03:21:43:17
David O’Leary
We’re just not we’re just not sure, you know, what what sort of the answers are. But, that was the shift for me. Was like, you know, don’t hang your hat on. Really? Any one theory, because it could be. It could be something else. It could appear one way, but actually, I actually did something else. I always love that, you know, I would say of anything to that.

03:21:43:19 – 03:22:04:29
David O’Leary
To that end, there’s like it only expanded. I mean, I was already having had knowledge of it sort of, you know, believed in the phenomenon. And, you know, I, I couldn’t profess to have the answers, but had certainly done the research. But if anything, it just expanded it expanded the scope of what was possible, like, especially with interdimensional beings.

03:22:04:29 – 03:22:33:25
David O’Leary
AI from alien civilizations. Are they even here? You know, old that stuff. The biggest thing for me that I found doing this was the, sort of how the sightings ticked up right after an around the time of our, you know, us basically getting nuclear capabilities. There are so many incidents of UFOs in and around nuclear missile sites turning the missiles on and off.

03:22:33:27 – 03:22:57:20
David O’Leary
And, you know, in and around Los Alamos at once. We got the bomb. This. That’s when everything shut up. That’s really when that’s what really when Roswell happened. And that is one of the most fascinating stories to me, because to me, it’s the clearest evidence yet. And this is coming from high ranking military officials who’ve testified in front of Congress about this.

03:22:57:20 – 03:23:21:20
David O’Leary
Again, this this stuff is all available to go. You can watch it, you know, and decide for yourself. Yeah, yeah, decide for yourself if like the, you know, the high ranking colonel who said I was in the missile bunker when the this, you know, object came and basically cut the power then turned it back on said our missiles to launch and we couldn’t do anything, then took it away.

03:23:21:22 – 03:23:48:14
David O’Leary
Yeah. And you can decide if this guy just decided to make it up and ruined his entire career. But to me, that’s the clearest evidence. It’s one thing for a civilian to see something dark across the sky and go, I saw something I can’t explain. It’s another thing for military personnel who are overseeing our nuclear weapons to have these objects come in and around and and basically control them, because to me, that’s communication, right?

03:23:48:14 – 03:24:06:18
David O’Leary
I know what that is like. It’s it’s them saying, we can do this to you. And now it’s up to us to go. Are they benevolent? Are they they or are they saying they can destroy us or they trying to start a war? Like what is happening? It’s not just like, oh, I saw something. I don’t understand it.

03:24:06:18 – 03:24:30:02
David O’Leary
They’re communicating in a way and have the ability to affect our world. That phenomenon blew my mind. And if you go down that rabbit hole and look at all the instances not just in America, but in Russia at the same time, it’s it’s fascinating. It’s really fascinating. And it goes all the way back, all the way back to the beginning of this, of this phenomena.

03:24:30:05 – 03:24:53:04
David O’Leary
I mean, Ed repels in his book, talks about it, how they would expect to see UFO sightings over like, like, atomic detonations in the South Pacific on top secret military, sort of weapons testing programs in the 40s and then late 40s and the 50. So it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s a fascinating, sort of aspects of this.

03:24:53:12 – 03:25:02:16
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. That’s a really interesting point to bring up, because if you put it kind of in a historical context, World War Two had just happened. So there was a lot of.

03:25:02:19 – 03:25:03:18
Sean Jablonski
Explosions.

03:25:03:21 – 03:25:06:09
Dan LeFebvre
Going on, you know, and that didn’t.

03:25:06:09 – 03:25:08:07
David O’Leary
Bring anything out.

03:25:08:10 – 03:25:14:23
Dan LeFebvre
But it but the nuclear side of it does it just interesting that World War Two didn’t seem to really.

03:25:14:25 – 03:25:40:18
David O’Leary
You had the Foo Fighters in World War Two really that, that, that that, that was a very a sort of a big thing back then. All the pilots describing what these objects were. And we touched on that, I think a little bit in the first season. And historically, it’s not like UFOs began right then they you Columbus talked about UFOs, you know, so but there was a clear, like explosion of sightings, you know.

03:25:40:21 – 03:26:05:14
David O’Leary
Well, maybe pun intended. Right around the time we got the bomb, that is when the wave just took off. And it’s also where the military, you know, had really, you know, gotten involved. And again, you know, the really it began with, you know, why am I forgetting his name? The sort of, you know, first thing, flying saucers in Oregon.

03:26:05:16 – 03:26:06:16
Sean Jablonski
Yeah.

03:26:06:18 – 03:26:28:06
David O’Leary
And the army. Arnold. Yeah. In 1947, which happened literally three weeks before Roswell. And one of the things in Roswell that that, is interesting. They did nuclear tests in and around there, but that was also the Roswell was the home of the final ninth Bomb Squadron, which was the squadron that dropped the Enola Gay was in Roswell.

03:26:28:08 – 03:26:46:06
David O’Leary
That’s what dropped the bomb on, you know, Hiroshima and all those all in and around their the White Sands missile base, the Allen Knoll, I can’t remember the other one, but all those nuclear testing things were around there, and the the amount and saucer sightings were just off the charts.

03:26:46:08 – 03:26:52:09
Dan LeFebvre
Wow. That’s fascinating. I, I guess I never had put it together that the Enola Gay was there in Roswell.

03:26:52:11 – 03:27:13:24
David O’Leary
When people think of Roswell, they always think of it as a kind of a sleepy desert town, kind of random, small thing. It’s got it had huge Roswell Army Air Force airfield had huge, huge sort of, military significance at that time. It was very important. And in that whole area, that was it was a massive testing ground for for top secret weaponry and stuff like that.

03:27:13:24 – 03:27:22:12
David O’Leary
So it’s not a I don’t think it’s at all, you know, for shrines to transport in any way a coincidence that this was a hub of sort of UFO activity at the time?

03:27:22:15 – 03:27:30:25
Dan LeFebvre
Well, I know I asked you about your your favorite episode. It’s hard to pick a favorite, but do you do you have a favorite story from the set as you are creating the show?

03:27:30:27 – 03:27:46:28
David O’Leary
I have to, and I’ll tell I’m really briefly. One is in abduction, which Shawn wrote, but he unfortunately was, for whatever reason, not able to be on set for. But I got, I got to be up for like nine and ten or maybe he, he was up for a little bit, but I don’t think he was up there for this part.

03:27:47:01 – 03:28:07:27
David O’Leary
When the character is recalling his sort of abduction experience, because it was what’s called a bottle episode, we had to do it. We couldn’t rely fully on VFX as we were trying to keep the but the budget down. That’s what a bottle episode is. And our director, Alex Graves, had this brilliant idea of like, he’s supposed to be levitating in a ship, right?

03:28:07:27 – 03:28:31:01
David O’Leary
And like, sort of finds himself in this alien environment. So they really strung up, the actor’s name, I think, is Malcolm. Good, good, win or good will forgive me if I. It’s. Yeah. And they strong him up and they shined all these shimmery lights on on him in the background on a screen and they, they blasted the entire sort of soundstage with, with, with smoke.

03:28:31:04 – 03:28:50:03
David O’Leary
And it was this magical alien kind of like experience come to life. But you could not see in front of you. The camera guys are like, you know, all the crew was so quiet and it was it just it looked incredible. You’re like it felt like you’re watching a VFX shot happen in front of your eyes. You know, it was like a portal open to another dimension.

03:28:50:07 – 03:29:16:12
David O’Leary
If you are looking at what we were actually filming. So that was incredible. And then I, you know, I mean, obviously all the like, fun kind of anecdotal moments with the cast are amazing too. But the other thing was in 110 we blew up a car and that was that was up just like we we all sat around and like literally had popcorn and like blew it up on our wound up in a, in a sort of an outside in an amphitheater, kind of an environment against a green screen.

03:29:16:15 – 03:29:42:21
David O’Leary
And, that was that. It blew up a nice 1950s car to boot. And that was just a fun, a fun, a fun day to see all that happened to. I have a zillion photographs that I’ll just say briefly. I think it was literally day one of episode 101. We showed up on set and it was the, you know, it was, the farm that what played for the farm house in the, in the first episode.

03:29:42:21 – 03:30:08:12
David O’Leary
And it was early morning cold Canada, and there was this fog that had just blanketed the entire area. And with this sun piercing through, it was some of the most dramatic looking landscape I’d ever seen. And it was the arrival of our characters through this fog. You know, up to this farmhouse, I it’s like, I don’t think we could have gotten we couldn’t have wished for anything better.

03:30:08:12 – 03:30:24:13
David O’Leary
And it was day one. So it’s just basically everybody’s connecting, everybody’s, you know, come in with their A-game. And so excited to be there. And it felt like, you know, felt like the gods were smiling on us saying this is the right way to begin. So we talked a.

03:30:24:13 – 03:30:35:16
Dan LeFebvre
Little bit about, potential season three. But in the first two seasons, was there anything that you wanted to add in there but you couldn’t for one reason or another?

03:30:35:19 – 03:31:12:10
David O’Leary
Oh, gosh. Well, we had like whole episode ideas that for one reason or another, we had we had to scrap, you know, I mean, there was all all kinds of like, you know, periods where I mean, there were sort of like UFO cold spots popping up in there in the early 1950s. And like, we thought about doing an episode that sort of explored that idea about sort of like how people how people might sort of use this arrival of this sort of new phenomena into the public consciousness, towards their own sort of self-serving ends and how people could get kind of roped into that to that kind of thing with, you know, gosh,

03:31:12:10 – 03:31:43:05
David O’Leary
I mean, there was all, you know, there’s always things there’s even within episodes, there’s scenes we had to kind of course, or little moments like for what timing purposes? We’re like, we just can’t. We can’t. We got to pick and choose. I’d say to David, you know, you’re his very first, his early draft of the script, you know, and it was always described as, you know, X-Files meets madmen because he had a really wonderful touch with the soap that was in there and is in it again, it was as much about personal life.

03:31:43:05 – 03:32:01:06
David O’Leary
And Joel, who was the kid, there was even a storyline with him. And, you know, it’s through the natural process of any TV show creation, development, you know, where the rubber meets the road. You got to start leaving, pushing things aside in favor of, you know, the engine of the series, which is our two guys in the cases.

03:32:01:06 – 03:32:17:21
David O’Leary
And I think we tried hard to make sure that we, you know, with like Susie and, and, Mimi and all of that to kind of create, you know, another world that we could go into that reflected the Cold War era times. But, I mean, for me, you know, I, I, I loved as much the character stuff as anything.

03:32:17:21 – 03:32:37:02
David O’Leary
And I thought there was certainly more stories to tell with, you know, me, me and Susie, and to have a female perspective as well as a home perspective, and to see what’s really going on, you know, during the Cold War, back home, you know, we tried a little of that with the bomb shelter early on in season one, you know, which was a real thing.

03:32:37:05 – 03:33:03:02
David O’Leary
You know, they would put ads in the newspapers for that stuff and how the kids would feel at school and bomb shelter. Yeah. Buy your own bomb shelter. Reminded me of we. Yeah, we had it. We came up with this whole storyline with Joel as, like, this 1950s boy kind of stand by me as sort of storyline with, like, he had a crush on his, like, neighbor, either on the radio or and then like, but then they and you get to sort of explore the fear of Russia and the Cold War through the lens of children.

03:33:03:04 – 03:33:23:24
David O’Leary
The irony being, of course, that they’re like while they’re like sitting while Joel’s at his neighbor’s, there really is a Russian spy next door having dinner at his house like all this, like wonderful stuff that like a just, you know, you got to pick and choose or a UFO show. So it was like, you got gotta, you know, but it would have been nice to, you know, to do some of those things as well, you know.

03:33:23:25 – 03:33:27:26
Sean Jablonski
Yeah, I forgot about all that.

03:33:27:28 – 03:33:37:25
Dan LeFebvre
Thank you guys so much for coming on to chat about Project Bluebook. I know until there’s a season three, hopefully there’ll be a season three, but until then, can you share a little bit about what you guys are working on?

03:33:37:27 – 03:34:04:27
David O’Leary
Sure. Well, I mean, you know, again, it’s it’s a you know, the world is such a passion for us. David and I are working on something right now that we’re we’re, you know, don’t want to say too much because we’re, in the early stages of, let’s say, negotiations. But, it’s back in the UFO worlds, and, we look forward to bringing, you know, those stories back to television, hopefully in the, in the coming, in the coming year, I should say.

03:34:04:27 – 03:34:23:10
David O’Leary
So, you know, if Blue book. What? Our appetite. We’re excited to serve it. Another meal coming up soon. Yeah. We just wanted to also give, you know, in regards to the safe Blue Book campaign, you know, a huge shout out to Carson who has led that effort. I know we created a website called Save Blue Book Comm, which is amazing.

03:34:23:17 – 03:34:46:08
David O’Leary
And just a wonderful way that he’s collected so many, you know, artifacts from the show and imagery from the show and, and all of our fans who, you know, remind us that the show mattered to them because that that is the most important thing. And that’s why we that’s why we did it. So we’re forever grateful we we never give up hope.

03:34:46:10 – 03:34:56:19
David O’Leary
You just never know. You just never know what’s going to happen. So we have a season three ready when, When? When? As soon as someone’s ready to take it on, so, you know. Thank you to all the fans.

03:34:56:21 – 03:34:59:21
Dan LeFebvre
And thanks again so much for your time, guys.

03:34:59:23 – 03:35:20:10
David O’Leary
Yeah. Thanks. You’re wonderful. Thanks so much, Dan. Thanks, everybody.

03:35:20:12 – 03:35:41:24
Dan LeFebvre
This episode of based On a True Story was produced by me, Dan Lafayette. What did you think of this huge mega episode about the History Channel’s Project Blue Book? Let me know if you’d like to see more of these style longer episodes in the future. We’ve got one more answer for teachers and allies to uncover. And as a quick refresher, here are the two truths and one life from my chat with David and Sean.

03:35:41:27 – 03:36:08:28
Dan LeFebvre
Number one, they wrote a season three of Project Blue Book, telling stories beyond the United States. Number two, the Roswell Incident was made famous by Project Blue Book number three. David and Sean have both had unexplained experiences. Did you figure out which one is a lie? Here’s the answer in the envelope. So let’s open that up. And the lie this time is number two.

03:36:09:03 – 03:36:30:01
Dan LeFebvre
Even though the History Channel’s Project Blue Book starts off season two with the Roswell incident in The True Story, the US government’s Project Blue Book did not investigate the Roswell incident like we see in the TV series, and that’s mostly because of the timeline. The Roswell incident occurred in 1947, but it wasn’t until the 1950s that Project Blue Book itself became a thing.

03:36:30:01 – 03:36:58:27
Dan LeFebvre
Remember, there was Project Sign and Project Grudge, and then really, it wasn’t until the 1970s, I believe it was 1978, that Roswell started to get popular after an interview with ufologist Stanton Friedman, and he interviewed a then retired U.S. Air Force officer named Jesse Marcel. Marcel was one of the soldiers who helped take the debris from the ranch in Roswell, and then he stated that the official explanation that it was a weather balloon was a cover story, and he actually believed it was extraterrestrial.

03:36:58:29 – 03:37:21:02
Dan LeFebvre
From there, the stories and theories started to swirl. So throughout the three episodes today, we played three separate games of two tours in A lie and the lies were one, three, and two respectively. How’d you do? Did you get all three correct? Head on over to based on a True Story podcast.com/discord and let me know how you did.

03:37:21:04 – 03:37:40:09
Dan LeFebvre
As always, you’ll find that link in the show notes with all of the other links for this episode, as well as on the show. Is home on the web over at. Based on a True Story podcast.com/376. Until next time, thanks so much for spending your time with Rob and David and Sean and me today, and I’ll chat with you again really soon.

September 24^th, 1780. New York.

At 36 minutes into the third season, episode 9 of AMC’s Turn: Washington’s Spies, we’ll find an event that happened exactly 244 years ago today during the American Revolutionary War.

Hitting play on the series, we’re in a wooded encampment of American soldiers. In the foreground is a cannon, with horses and a tent in the background. On the right side, everything is gathered around a rustic, wooden building. Off in the distance, behind the building, a uniformed officer in blue and white can be seen riding a horse into the encampment. Taking off his helmet, he tells one of the soldiers he’s looking for Colonel Jameson. They point him to the building. Handing the soldier his helmet, he walks to the building and enters.

Once inside, we can see another uniformed man sitting behind a desk. That must be Colonel Jameson, although there’s no one with that name cast in the series. But we can tell the man walking into the building who just entered the encampment is Seth Numrich’s character, Benjamin Tallmadge.

Tallmadge addresses Jameson inside the building, and we can see another man there playing a game of checkers across from the Colonel. The other man isn’t wearing a uniform at all, and when Tallmadge introduces himself as Major Benjamin Tallmadge from General Washington’s staff, the other man seems to noticeably shy away a bit.

Tallmadge tells the Colonel he was sent to find out what happened last night.

Now the three men are all facing each other, and Tallmadge makes no indication of recognizing the non-uniformed man. Colonel Jameson goes on, saying an enemy ship got a little rowdy, but she turned tail after a few shots. Oh, and this man was caught by some Skinners a few hours ago. They said he’s a spy, but he has a letter of pass from General Arnold that they couldn’t read.

Tallmadge looks directly at the other man, who we know from the actor is JJ Feild’s character, Major John Andre. He smiles at Tallmadge saying it was a simple misunderstanding. Tallmadge makes no indication of recognizing Andre.

“Yes, of course,” he says. Then, he asks Jameson for a word between just the two men, and they leave the building together. Once outside, Tallmadge asks Jameson to confirm Andre’s story. Then, Tallmadge asks Jameson if he had any shoes on. Jameson pauses for a moment.

No, he didn’t have any.

You didn’t think that was odd?

Then, turning to look at one of the Skinners standing there, Tallmadge continues to talk to Jameson.

“Or, you didn’t think it was odd that one of the Skinners is wearing a pair of royal officer’s boots?”

We can see one of the men standing there is wearing a nice pair of boots. Tallmadge asks what the man’s name is inside. Jameson thinks for a moment, then he says, “John Anderson.”

Tallmadge thinks for a moment, seemingly racking his brain for that name.

Then, Colonel Jameson continues to speak, saying that he should add that he did have plans for West Point on his person. But we didn’t think anything of it because they were in General Arnold’s handwriting. Tallmadge is in disbelief, “Wait a minute, what? And you just thought to tell me this now?”

Jameson stands a little taller now, “Of course not. It’s all in my report to General Arnold.”

Tallmadge pauses for a moment, as the realization starts to set in across his face before rushing away.

The true story behind this week’s event in the movie Turn: Washington’s Spies

Let’s start our fact-checking of this week’s event by clarifying the timeline, because the series doesn’t give us any indication of dates or anything. But, if I had to guess, I’d say this segment from the movie happened on September 24^th, 1780, because of a line in the series where Colonel Jameson talks about “John Anderson” being caught the night before.

And we know from history that the real Major John Andre was captured on September 23^rd, 1780—so, the night before the meeting we see in the series.

The TV show is correct to mention the name John Anderson, too, because that was the name John Andre used undercover. And it’s also correct to suggest Benjamin Tallmadge was involved as part of Washington’s Spies—as to borrow from the title of the series.

So, in the true story, Major General Benedict Arnold was in the inner circle for the Commander-in-Chief of the Continental Army, General George Washington. But, Arnold grew disillusioned with his position in the Army because, quite simply, he was going broke and the Continental Army wasn’t paying him what he felt he deserved. So, he offered to turn over the fort at West Point in exchange for about £20,000 and a position in the British Army. While it’s hard to convert British pounds of 1780 to today’s U.S. dollars, a rough ballpark would be about $42 million today.

After nearly a year of communicating in secret, Major Andre took a British ship called Vulture to meet face-to-face with General Arnold of the Continental Army. They met in the evening hours of September 21^st, 1780, and talked all night until the sun started to come up on September 22^nd. Even as the sun came up, Major Andre decided to keep the conversation with Arnold going, so instead of going back to Vulture, he and Arnold decided to go to a nearby house. It was owned by a man named Joshua Hett Smith at the time—he’s not in the TV series at all. Today, though, Smith’s house has another name: The Treason House. That’s thanks to the meeting between Andre and Arnold that took place there. At least, that was a nickname it had before it was demolished. I’ll throw a link in the show notes of a photo of what the house looked like in case you want to see.

So, at Smith’s house on September 22^nd is where Andre and Arnold continued their conversations. Meanwhile, though, the presence of a British ship on the river drew the gunfire of some Continental soldiers. That’s what the TV series is talking about when we hear Colonel Jameson telling Tallmadge about a ship that turned tail after a few shots.

They couldn’t have known it at the time, but that’s a nice little historical level of detail there because the ship they’re talking about is Vulture, which had delivered Andre to the meeting with Arnold and then once it shot at, Vulture was forced to retreat, leaving Andre stranded.

When it was finally time to leave, Arnold convinced Andre that he’d be safer going undercover on land instead of trying to sneak back to the British ship that was long gone by now.

So, that’s why we see Major John Andre in the series without a British uniform on—because he took it off to try and sneak past the American lines. He tried to do that in the early morning hours of September 23^rd, and I say “tried” for a reason. He was not successful.

If you remember from the TV series, Colonel Jameson tells Tallmadge that Andre had a passport from General Arnold that the Skinners couldn’t read.

The term “Skinners” we hear in the series are referring to slang term used in American-held territory for fighters loyal to the British Crown. That was a real term, but it’s how Colonel Jameson says the Skinners couldn’t read the pass that’s a change from what really happened.

In the true story, the men who captured John Andre were named John Paulding, David Williams, and Isaac Van Wart. Those were the three Americans who stopped Andre on the morning of September 23^rd, 1780. They didn’t have to read any passport from Andre, because he told them exactly who he was. You see, one of those men, John Paulding, just happened to be wearing a captured Hessian uniform.

Hessians were Germans who were serving in the British army.

So, Hessians were loyal to the British Crown. When Andre saw the Hessian uniform, he assumed the three men were British soldiers. He asked if they belonged to the “lower party” referring to the British camp to the south of them. They said they do, so John Andre told them he was a British officer who was on important business. It must’ve been quite a shock to Andre when the three men replied with, “We’re Americans” and arrested him.

Only then did Andre change his story, telling the men he was actually an American. That’s when he showed them the passport that General Arnold gave him, but again the men didn’t even need to read it like we see in the series because at that point they already were suspicious of this man.

Just like we see in the series, it is true that John Andre was taken to a nearby camp run by Lt. Colonel John Jameson. And Jameson had no idea of Andre’s true intentions, but he was aware of the passport from General Arnold. Of course, Jameson also had no idea of Arnold’s true intentions, either, so Jameson was going to send Andre directly to Arnold!

Very very similar to what we see happening in the TV show, Major Benjamin Tallmadge arrived at Jameson’s camp while Andre was there. He was suspicious of Andre, and instead of sending Andre to General Arnold, he convinced Jameson to send Andre and the letters from Arnold that Andre was carrying to General Washington.

As fate would have it, though, Jameson knew what all this implied. But he still wasn’t sure about Arnold’s guilt. And remember, as far as he’s concerned, General Arnold is still Colonel Jameson’s superior officer at this point—because, technically, he still was. If for any reason General Arnold was found not guilty, you can bet General Arnold’s retaliation would fall on Colonel Jameson.

So, Col. Jameson sent Andre to General Washington, and also sent a letter to General Arnold telling him of Andre’s arrest. That gave Arnold enough time to escape, which he did—also this week in history—on September 25^th, 1780.

And while John Andre’s capture and Benedict Arnold’s betrayal was a major moment during the American Revolution, of course, it’s just one small part of the overall story of the spy ring that’s told in AMC’s Turn: Washington’s Spies.

So, if you want to learn more about the true story, I’ve got a deep-dive episode all about Turn linked in the show notes—that’s episode #139 of Based on a True Story.

September 25^th, 1944. Arnhem, Netherlands.

Our next event happened on the 25^th, so Wednesday this week, and back during World War II. To see how it’s shown in the movies, we’re at about two hours and 42 minutes into the 1977 film A Bridge Too Far.

Picking up a piece of paper, Sean Connery’s character, Maj. Gen. Urquhart, reads it with an air of disgust in his voice. “Withdraw!?”

He turns around, speaking to no one in particular, although we can see some other soldiers in the background.

“Two days, they said, and we’ve been here nine,” he mutters under his breath as he paces across the floor. Again, in disgust, he mutters something about how you’d think we could accomplish one bloody mile. Then, General Urquhart’s demeanor seems to change slightly as he turns to another man in the room. As if finally accepting the piece of paper, he says they have their marching orders.

In the next shot, we see General Urquhart addressing his men. Referring to George Innes’ character, he says MacDonald will stay behind with the radio to give the Germans something to listen to while the rest of the men sneak away. On top of that, some of the medical staff have volunteered to stay behind with the wounded who are too bad to move. Those wounded will replace the men firing, to allow them to escape.

By the time the Germans find out what’s happening, we should all be safely across the river.

And then, under the cover of a rainy night, we see what looks like General Urquhart’s British soldiers making their escape. It’s so dark and the rain is heavy enough that it’s very difficult to see just how many there are, but we can see a line of soldiers all walking along a rope, using it like a guiding line. They stop when they can hear the sound of German voices over the rain.

After a moment, the voices seem to die down, and the line starts moving again. One of the soldiers turns to Urquhart and says something to the effect of how he’s finally starting to believe they’ll make it. And, in the next few scenes, there are more and more soldiers in the cover of night who are walking the same direction toward a large river. General Urquhart watches for a moment before getting into a small boat with a few other soldiers and making his way across the river, too.

The true story behind this week’s event in the movie A Bridge Too Far

That event we’re seeing is the end of the military operation known as Market Garden—a disastrous failure for the Allies during World War II that many historians believe prolonged the war instead of ending it early.

So, let’s start our fact-check with Sean Connery’s character, Major General Urquhart.

He was a real person, and he really was the man in charge of the 1^st Airborne Division for the Battle of Arnhem. That battle was just part of the overall Operation Market Garden, but the movie is correct to show Arnhem as being the last major part of the overall Market Garden that ended in the retreat of Allied forces.

In a nutshell, the way Operation Market Garden worked was the Allies dropped paratroopers at strategic locations just a few miles away from the bridges they were tasked with taking out. That’s why Sean Connery’s version of General Urquhart says something to the effect of going a “bloody mile” or something.

The airborne part of the operation commenced on September 17^th, 1944, and the plan was for the troops to hold the bridges until the land forces could meet them. That’s where the name comes from, because the “Market” part of the plan were the paratroopers, to be relieved by the “Garden” part of the operation—the ground troops.

If you remember, in the movie we hear Sean Connery’s version of General Urquhart mention how it was supposed to be two days, and it’s been nine.

Well, it is true that they were supposed to be relieved within 48 hours.

It’s also true that didn’t really go according to plan, though, because there were a lot more Germans in the area than the Allies anticipated. Somewhere around 100,000 Germans were in the area, compared to a little over 41,000 Allied troops. Of course, that’s for the overall operation, for the part of the true story we’re seeing in the movie with General Urquhart, there were about 10,000 of the British 1^st Airborne Division.

But, it’s still important to know the overall military operation, because all that fighting slowed down the reinforcements that were supposed to make it to them. The British paratroopers who had managed to make it to the bridge, there were only about 800 or so that made it to the bridge at Arnhem only to find themselves surrounded and alone. Despite that, and in spite of constant artillery bombardments and ground assaults from the Germans, the British held their positions for four days.

By the time the 21^st of September rolled around, the British at the bridge were being forced to surrender. The Germans continued their heavy assaults on the Allied troops. Still, they held out for a few more days. Finally, it was this week in history during the late-night hours of the 25^th or early morning hours of the 26^th that General Urquhart ordered a withdrawal.

So, that’s the scene in the movie A Bridge Too Far—the Battle of Arnhem, and also the bridge at Arnhem proved to be too much for the Allied troops. And although the scene from the movie we watched today made it hard to see how many soldiers managed to escape, only 2,000 of the 10,000 troops who were dropped managed to get out.

Oh, and just to clarify about the name of the movie. The name “A Bridge Too Far” comes from the book by Cornelius Ryan about Operation Market Garden. That’s the book the movie is based on, and the term “a bridge too far” is referring to the bridge at Arnhem where General Urquhart’s men were at, since it overstretched the Allies and led to the eventual withdrawal.

Would Operation Market Garden have been successful had they not tried to capture the one bridge at Arnhem? Despite that being something the book and movie title implies, in the true story, Operation Market Garden is debated among military historians to this day because as you might imagine, the true story is a lot more complicated.

But, if you want to watch the disastrous end of the operation that happened this week in history, hop in the show notes for where you can watch the movie A Bridge Too Far!

September 28^th, 1978. The Vatican.

At about two and a half hours into the film Godfather 3, we’ll find our next event from Saturday this week as two men dressed in black clergy robes walk down a dimly-lit hallway. The walls are a dark red color, with a huge painting in an ornate frame hanging on the wall, as well as fancy, old chairs and wooden furniture set along the wall. One of the two men is carrying a small tray with a saucer and cup.

As the movie plays, they walk down the marble-floored hallway and around the corner. After a pause, there’s a slight knock at the door. As the door opens, we can only hear someone saying, “Tea, Your Holiness? It will help you sleep” and the man with the steaming hot cup of tea on the saucer walks into the room.

The door closes behind him as the movie shifts to another scene of what looks like a mob hit as the character on the bed is smothered by two other men holding a pillow. Another cut in the movie, and we can see a sequence of even more dead men—apparently others taken out by the mob.

In the luxury box of a play, someone comes up to Al Pacino’s character, Michale Corleone, and whispers something in his ear. It must be something important, because he gets up and leaves with the man. In the dark hallway of the theater, we can hear what sounds like Andy Garcia’s version of Vincent Mancini telling Michael that their man inside the Vatican says something will happen to the Pope.

He’ll have a heart attack?

This is serious.

Michael says this Pope has powerful enemies, we might not be in time to save him. Then, they decide to go back into the play so no one notices them missing.

Back in the room we saw the man enter with the tea cup earlier, now it’s a nun knocking on the same door. She doesn’t wait very long for an answer before she opens the door herself, saying something as she walks into the room. There’s no reply, so she walks further into the room. On the nightstand, she picks up the saucer with what seems to be a now-empty teacup.

The nun is still trying to get the attention of whomever is lying on the bed.

The camera cuts to the man, smiling as if calmly sleeping in the bed. She nudges him. He doesn’t move. She nudges a little harder, making the reading glasses fall off his nose. He still doesn’t get up. The nun gasps, and rushes out of the room. We can hear the sound of the teacup shattering on the ground as she runs out of the room screaming, “The Holy Father is dead!”

The true story behind this week’s event in the movie Godfather III

Let’s kick off our fact-checking segment by stating the obvious: This is an example of a movie using a very real historical event as part of its fictional story. That real event is the death of Pope John Paul I.

And you guessed it, this week in history is when the real Pope John Paul I died.

Was he poisoned by a cup of tea like we see in the movie?

Well, that’s where the fictional part of the story comes into play…and not necessarily because the movie is wrong, but more that we just don’t know everything about the true story.

And here’s where this part of the story ventures into the land of conspiracies, because if you’ve ever done any research into the Catholic Church, you’ll know they’re not really known for being forthcoming with all the intricate details about how a Pope dies. Oh, sure, there’s the official version…but is that what really happened to Pope John Paul I?

Like any good conspiracy theory, let’s just lay out what we do know about the true story so you can decide what you believe.

We didn’t talk about this part of the movie, but if you’ve seen Godfather III, then you’ll know that earlier in the movie we see Pope John Paul I being elected to the papacy.

In the true story, that happened on August 26^th, 1978, and if you got the impression from the movie that perhaps he wasn’t 100% on board with the papacy, you’d be correct. We know this because of an interview that Father Diego Lorenzi did to honor the former pope. Lorenzi had worked with Pope John Paul I before he was Pope John Paul I, back when he was the Patriarch of Venice.

As a side note, his name before being Pope John Paul I was Albino Luciani. He picked Pope John Paul I because Pope Paul VI was his papal predecessor who had named him a cardinal, and the pope before that was Pope John XXIII, who had named him a bishop. So, that’s how he got the name.

So, anyway, as the true story goes, Luciani had said before going to the College of Cardinals where they vote for the pope, that if they voted for him—he would turn them down. But, in the end, he must’ve changed his mind…because when he was voted in, he said “yes” just like we see in the movie.

Well, I guess in the movie he says, “I accept,” but you know what I mean.

Pope John Paul I was only the Pope for 33 days, though.

He died on September 26^th, 1978. That falls on Thursday this week.

To say his death was a surprise is an understatement. He was the shortest-reigning pope since Pope Leo XI died of a cold just 27 days after being elected—back in the year 1605.

According to the official version of the story, Pope John Paul I died very similar to the way we see in the movie: Peacefully and in bed. The bedside lamp was still lit…and while the movie shows him smiling as if he’s just sleeping with a happy dream, we don’t really know if he had a smile on his face when he was found.

With that said, though, it is a little nod of the hat from the filmmakers to the real history because Pope John Paul I had the nickname “The Smiling Pope” because, well, he smiled a lot.

The official version of the true story is that Pope John Paul I most likely had a heart attack at some point during the night.

As you can imagine from such a short papacy, there are a lot of conspiracy theories surrounding his death. And one of them is very much in line with what we see in the Godfather III that it surrounded something to do with the Vatican Bank and maybe even the Mafia. Check out the show notes for a link to David Yallop’s 1984 book called In God’s Name where he lays out that conspiracy in more detail.

Historical birthdays from the movies

Time now for some birthdays from historical figures in the movies that were born this week in history.

On September 25^th, 1764, Fletcher Christian was born in Cumberland, England. He’s best known as the master’s mate on the Royal Navy ship HMS Bounty under the command of Lieutenant William Bligh. It was Christian who led the mutiny on the Bounty in 1789. That story has been told in multiple movies, including the 1962 movie simply called Mutiny on the Bounty where Fletcher Christian is played by Marlon Brando. And we did a deep dive into the historical accuracy of that movie back on episode #156 of Based on a True Story.

On September 26^th, 1888, Thomas Stearns Eliot was born in St. Louis, Missouri. He was better known as T.S. Eliot, who is now considered one of the 20^th century’s greatest poets. He was played by Willem Dafoe in the 1994 biopic about his early life called Tom & Viv.

On September 27^th, 1389, Cosimo di Giovanni de’ Medici was born in the Republic of Florence, in modern-day Italy. Cosimo was best known as the Italian banker whose immense riches allowed him to establish his family as one of the most powerful families during the Italian Renaissance. He was played by Richard Madden in the Netflix series simply called Medici.

‘Based on a True Story’ movie that released this week

This Sunday is the anniversary of the Denzel Washington movie called Remember the Titans! The movie was directed by Boaz Yakin and when it opened 24-years ago this week, it earned back almost everything it took to make the movie. With a budget of $30 million, Remember the Titans opened with about $21 million on its way to over $130 million worldwide.

Released in 2000 and set mostly in 1971, Remember the Titans gives us the “Based on a True Story” text about 45 seconds into the movie as it goes on to tell the tale of the T.C. Williams High School football team from Alexandria, Virginia. That football team goes by the Titans—hence the name of the movie.

According to the movie, T.C. Williams High School are newly integrating Black and white players, as well as coaches. That’s where Denzel Washington’s character, Herman Boone, comes into the movie as he’s appointed the head coach of the football team, replacing the former head coach Bill Yoast—he’s played by Will Patton in the movie.

And that’s where the first racial tensions arise in the movie, because Coach Yoast doesn’t appreciate being replaced. Then again, in the movie, Coach Boone doesn’t like that he’s been appointed the new head coach despite Coach Yoast having a fantastic career. He almost doesn’t accept the position, but he eventually does, and similarly Coach Yoast decides to stick around as Coach Boone’s defensive coordinator.

In the movie, we see Coach Boone taking the team to a rather rigorous training camp in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania in an attempt to unite the team. Using the history of the Battle of Gettysburg to emphasize the importance of unity and overcoming racial divides, the team gradually begins to bond. The movie really focuses on two key players and team captains, Gerry Bertier, who is white, and Julius Campbell, who is Black, and as those two start to develop a close friendship so, too, does the rest of the team.

Gerry is played by Ryan Hurst while Wood Harris plays Julius Campbell in the movie.

When the team returns to Alexandria, there’s still the societal pressures and ongoing racial tensions they have to face. But the Titans go on to have an extraordinary season, remaining undefeated and eventually making it to the state championship—no thanks to a scheme by the school board to have Coach Yoast reinstated by having the refs make bad calls against the Titans. But, Coach Yoast is onto the scheme and calls out the ref in the middle of the game, so things go back to the Titan’s way once the refs go back to making fair calls.

As they’re celebrating their trip to the state championship, tragedy strikes when Gerry Bertier is driving his car when a truck side-swipes him, leaving him in the hospital for the big game. Despite this, the Titans still manage to win the state championship…and then, we find out at the very end that Gerry died ten years later, bringing everyone back together for his funeral.

The true story behind Remember the Titans

Shifting to the fact-checking segment, and let’s start with what is probably the biggest historical inaccuracy: Gerry Bertier was not in a car accident that left him handicapped before the state championship game.

With that said, though, it is true that he was in a car crash…but, it wasn’t like what we see in the movie.

In the true story, this was after Titans’ 1971 season when they had a banquet to honor Gerry. Afterward, he was driving some of his friends home in his mother’s new Camero when he lost control of the car, it crashed and resulted in Gerry being paralyzed.

Speaking of their 1971 season, the rest of the key plot points in the movie are basically correct.

T.C. Williams High School in the movie was a real place. That name comes from Thomas Chambliss Williams, who was a former superintendent of the school system from the 1930s to the 1960s. Today, it’s the Alexandria City High School.

During the movie’s timeline, though, T.C. Williams High School was pretty new, having first opened its doors in 1965. That same year, the city of Alexandria integrated all their schools, and T.C. Williams High School received all the 11^th and 12^th graders in the city.

So, the movie is correct to show the racial tensions and prejudices throughout the team, and the school overall. On the football field, though, the Titans had an amazing year. Earlier I mentioned Gerry Bertier, so he was a real person. So, too, was Julius Campbell.

In the true story, they were both team captains whose friendship helped bond the team despite the racial tensions outside. And on top of that, helped the Titans become simply a great team as well. After all, they had players from three different schools coming together at T.C. Williams for the first time that year.

And they ended up going 13-0, and not by a close margin. Gerry Bertier alone had 142 tackles and 42 sacks! What about Julius Campbell? He had 34 sacks of his own. That’s 76 sacks for just two players—in 13 games! So, it’s no wonder the Titans outscored their opponents 338-38.

Then, as we talked about before, Bertier’s car crash left him paralyzed. Oh, to give you a better idea of how the movie’s timeline compressed that part, the Titans’ final game in 1971 was on December 4^th. The car crash that left Bertier paralyzed was on December 11^th.

The movie skipping ahead to 1981 for his death is, sadly, also true.

Gerry Bertier was on his way home in Charlottesville, Virginia, when a car going the opposite way on the highway crossed the center lane and smashed into him. He died at the hospital later. Gerry Bertier was 27 years old.

August 12th, 1943. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

For our first movie this week, we’re heading to a 1982 movie from Executive Producer John Carpenter that you’ve probably never seen called The Philadelphia Experiment. We’re starting at about 11 and a half minutes into the movie where we see Eric Christmas’ character, Dr. James Longstreet, centered in the frame. He’s wearing white shirt, maroon tie, an almost-matching maroon scarf, underneath a herringbone tweed overcoat, topped with a brown fedora.

He’s looking off camera at something in the distance for a moment before turning around and going back through the doorway of what looks like the military gray of a Navy ship. As he does, the wind picks up and throws the maroon scarf over his left shoulder.

The camera cuts to a different angle, and Dr. Longstreet’s silhouette is prominent in the foreground as he walks inside leaving us to see what he was looking at: Another Navy ship in the harbor of a metropolitan city that I’m assuming is Philadelphia.

Inside the ship now, the camera is focused on a red radar screen. As the line goes around the circular screen the sound of two blips can be heard just as we see them on the radar. In other words, there are two ships on radar…and I’m assuming one of them is the ship we’re on with this radar. That’s the ship we just saw Dr. Longstreet step inside, and then I’m assuming the other blip on the radar is the ship Dr. Longstreet was looking at across the harbor.

Oh, by the way, that line you see going around the radar in the movies all the time is called the radar sweep, or just the sweep. Don’t worry, I had to look it up, too.

Dr. Longstreet and his assistant enter the bridge we can see the military officers running the ship. Except, it looks like the U.S. Navy officers are calling Dr. Longstreet “sir,” so I get the sense he’s in charge of whatever they’re doing.

And whatever it is involves those two ships because one of them tells Dr. Longstreet that, “the ships are on station, sir.”

So, the two ships are placed in a specific location.

Just then, the camera cuts to show us the ship Dr. Longstreet was looking at before, and now there’s a small cutter ship in front of it. Was that there before? I didn’t notice it, but now I’m questioning if those are the two ships we see on the radar.

Back inside the ship, we’re in some kind of control room with a sailor manning a huge black piece of equipment with knobs, buttons, and dials on it. We can’t see what any of them are, though, other than a red sign that says, “High Voltage.” That sign matches another “High Voltage” sign directly across from our camera view. That box is connected to three smaller boxes labeled “Gen 1”, “Gen 2”, and “Gen 3.”

The sailor manning the controls is Jim Parker, who is played by Bobby Di Cicco in the movie.

Another sailor, Michael Paré’s character, David Herdeg, enters through the open doorway just behind Parker and one-by-one, flips on the three “Gen” boxes. As he does, he remarks to his colleague, “Here we go.”

The camera shifts to another room that’s bathed in red light. There’s some sort of huge device in the center. A black box similar to the one we just saw in the last room is in the center, but this one doesn’t say “High Voltage” on it. This box doesn’t say anything that’s legible in the movie, it’s just a black rectangle sitting in the middle of a room of pipes, just in front of some huge metal structure.

The movie doesn’t explain it here, but if I had to guess, I’d say this is the control box for whatever that huge structure is. As the camera pans up, we can see a sailor walking around the structure taking notes. Steam rises from it, too, in a way that reminds me of how the steam emits from a rocket on the launch pad before the main engines kick in.

Back on the bridge, another sailor informs him that the generators are activated. That must’ve been the three “Gen” boxes they just turned on. Putting on his round framed glasses, Dr. Longstreet gives the order, “Power to the main field.”

Knobs are turned on control boards. A knob is turned to “Set Level,” and another set to the value of 3%.

Back in the room with the sailor who turned on the “Gen” boxes, we can see more of the room now. The other sailor is still at the black box with the “High Voltage” sign, operating it by turning knobs and dials. In the foreground are eight huge panels of vintage light bulbs. You know the ones where you can see the yellow filament inside? It’s like that, but hundreds of them…

…in fact, I paused the movie to count them all so you don’t have to. 710 is the number I came up with, although I’ll admit that I might’ve miscounted because it’s really hard to see some of them in the back. So, if you got a different number, let me know!

All of the bulbs are pulsing. On, off. On, off. Almost like a throbbing of the light around the two sailors manning the equipment in the room, David Herdeg and Jim Parker.

Outside, everything is normal. We can see the massive Navy ship with the number “724” in the side in the foreground against a bright blue sky.

Then, on the right of the frame what looks like an antenna of some sort starts pulsing like the light bulbs did inside. Rays of lights start spraying out of the antenna toward the left of the screen. Inside the ship, now, everything is cloaked in an eerie red light. A couple of the sailors look at each other, each of the men is bursting with some sort of unnaturally bright, red, light.

From a distance, we can see the entire ship in the harbor as the rays of light from the antenna intensify. Maybe it’s coming from other parts of the ship, at this point there’s so much light I doubt it can be from one small antenna. The movie cuts to a few different shots of men watching the lights in wonder before going to one of the radar operators with the two blips.

We can hear them as the sweep goes around the radar.

Beep, beep. Beep, beep. Beep, beep.

The other of the two radar operators says he can’t believe it, the Eldridge is beginning to fade.

Beep, beep. Beep, beep.

Beep.

Beep.

Beep.

It’s gone. One of the officers looks at the radar in disbelief. Then, turning around, he looks right at Dr. Longstreet, “She’s radar invisible,” he says. I didn’t think it was possible. Congratulations, Doctor, it looks like you’ve taken the entire German fleet out of this war.

Back in the room, David Herdeg and Jim Parker are just standing there watching the pulsing light bulbs all around them. And back outside on the Eldridge, there’s still that eerie red glow pulsing around the entire ship—and the men on board.

A klaxon alarm goes off. Is something wrong?

Then, the camera cuts back to the shot of the harbor with the whole ship in view. Rays of light continue to emit from the ship until…it just disappears. On the bridge, one of the men says the cutter has radioed that the Eldridge has disappeared. Of course, she’s radar invisible!

No, sir, she’s gone. She’s really vanished.

The camera follows Dr. Longstreet as he rushes out of the door, he just came in a few moments earlier. Out in the harbor, as peaceful as ever is the small ship. The cutter.

Next to it?

Nothing.

The entire Navy ship has just disappeared.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie The Philadelphia Experiment

Let’s move onto our fact-checking segment, because there is a huge caveat to add to this movie.

There is a very good chance none of that happened.

I mean, making a Navy ship disappear? It’s the stuff of conspiracy theories, and that is exactly what we’re talking about today.

Another huge part of the movie’s version of the tale that differs from what many believe about the true story is the date. Movies often shift timelines, and this case is no different. You see, many people believe all this happened in October of 1943.

And that’s the version the movie tells, because even though I didn’t talk about this part today, at the beginning of the movie it says this is taking place in Philadelphia in October of 1943.

To add to the historical context that we don’t get in the movie, October 28^th is the date many associate with the experiment. Many, except for one key person in the story.

And that one key person is why we’re talking about this today instead of October. After today’s movie came out, one of the people who saw it was a man named Al Bielek.

According to Al’s version of the story, soon after seeing the movie, memories started returning of the time he was a part of The Philadelphia Experiment, and even leading other such top-secret government programs.

For example, some of those memories that returned included his time working at the Montauk Project on Long Island, New York. Where the story gets strange is that Al supposedly lived in California. So, every morning during the 1970s, he’d commute from his apartment in California, teleport to Long Island, New York, through the time tunnel the U.S. government perfected around that time, then he’d return to California at the end of the day.

For geographical context, that’s about 2,500 miles or almost 4,000 kilometers each way.

It sure would be nice if that teleportation was available in the mainstream for you and I, huh?

So, anyway, one of those memories that started coming back to Al Bielek after he saw the movie in January of 1988 was that his work at the top-secret Montauk Project ended with what we now know as the Philadelphia Experiment.

Are you ready to go down the rabbit hole on this segment?

And according to Al’s version of the story, he and another man named Duncan Cameron were on board USS Eldridge, that’s the ship in the movie, and they both jumped off the deck and then got mixed up in hyperspace with the Project Rainbow they were conducting exactly 20 years earlier on August 12^th, 1943.

So, while all the men on Eldridge were stuck in hyperspace somewhere between 1943 and 1983, Al and Duncan woke up at Camp Hero in Montauk, New York. That was in 1983, and while at Camp Hero, they met the famous physicist John von Neumann, implying he was working on the project as well. But, then, it was the Camp Hero staff that shut down those generators on the Eldridge in 1983, thereby collapsing the time tunnel and returning the Eldridge to the Philadelphia naval yard where the time traveling experiment started.

But, then, after the experiments ended all the records were destroyed, everyone involved was sworn to secrecy, or in some versions of the story some of the staff were even brainwashed or shot so they wouldn’t talk. And it only started to come back to light after Al’s memory started coming back after he saw the movie we talked about today.

Although I saw reports that claimed the ship was covered in a greenish-blue glow and not the reddish glow like we see in the movie. But, as the story goes, it really did simply disappear in front of everyone’s eyes in the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard in 1943.

Oh, and there are also reports of some people seeing Eldridge at the Naval Shipyard in Norfolk, Virginia for a moment before it disappeared from there and reappeared in Philadelphia a few hours later.

So, what’s the true story?

Well, if you believe Al Bielek, all of this has been the true story.

But, since we are talking about a conspiracy theory here, I feel like maybe we should step outside of one person’s version of events.

USS Eldridge was a real ship, that’s not a made-up name for the movie or the conspiracy theory. She was a Cannon-class destroyer escort ship, 300 feet, or about 90 meters long. She was launched in July of 1943, commissioned August 27^th, 1943, and named after Lt. Commander John Eldridge, Jr., who was a U.S. Navy officer who posthumously received the Navy Cross for his role leading the initial invasion of the Solomon Islands on August 7^th and 8^th, in 1942.

Her role in the war was escorting soldiers and materials for the Allied operations in North Africa and Southern Europe, so she spent a lot of time in the Mediterranean. After the war, she wasn’t needed anymore, so she was placed out of commission in June of 1946, and sold to Greece in 1951. Greece renamed her to Leon, or Lion, and she served in their Navy until being decommissioned in 1992, and ultimately sold for scrap in 1999.

With all that said, if you noticed the timing there, there was about a month between her launch and being officially commissioned, and then going off to do her missions during the war. To be more specific, the U.S. Navy officially lists her launch date as July 25^th, 1943, and then about a month later on August 27^th, 1943, she was officially commissioned into the Navy with a ceremony.

Immediately, in early September, her first mission was to go to the Bahamas for shakedown operations. Or, in other words, a sea trial for a new ship and her crew to make sure they’re all good to go before joining the war. A training mission, basically.

So, the official history has Eldridge around the Bahamas around this time. Or, did something happen between July 25^th and August 27^th that we don’t know about?

What do you think really happened?

If you want to watch the movie’s version of events, I’ve got a link in the show notes for where you can watch the 1984 movie The Philadelphia Experiment. We started our segment today about 11 and a half minutes into it.

And if you want to go even further down the rabbit hole, they made a sequel in 1994 and a made-for-TV remake of the 1984 movie came out in 2012. I’ll go ahead and throw all those links in the show notes in case you feel like a conspiracy this week.

August 14th, 1040. Scotland.

For our next movie, we’ll join about 33 minutes into the 2015 movie adaptation of the Shakespeare play Macbeth. It’s a dimly lit room where we see Michael Fassbender’s version of Macbeth as he’s looking down and to the left. After a moment’s pause, he turns and sees someone at the door. They’re hard to see due to the dim candlelight in the room, but it seems to be a boy. His face is smeared in mud or grease of some sort, and he’s wearing all black, so he blends into the night behind him.

He’s holding something in his right hand, and that catches Macbeth’s attention. He asks if it’s a dagger. The boy doesn’t say anything, but as Macbeth approaches him, the camera cuts to a closeup of the boy’s hand as he stretches it out toward Macbeth, handing him the dagger. Interestingly, the dagger is facing Macbeth, so the boy’s hand is all bloody as he’s holding the blade.

Macbeth stares at the boy, calling him a vision. A dagger of the mind.

Slowly, the boy backs out of the open doorway into the night. Macbeth follows him, leaving the room and going outside.

Once outside, Macbeth continues to speak to the boy. The boy hasn’t said anything in return, but Macbeth still isn’t sure if he’s really seeing the boy or if he’s a vision. Closing his eyes, Macbeth tells himself there is no such thing.

And as he continues walking forward into the night, the boy is no longer there. Maybe he was a vision after all.

Macbeth walks across the darkness to the glow of candles coming from inside a nearby tent. As he gets closer, we can see there’s a large bed inside the tent with a man sleeping on it. Macbeth sneaks through the opening of the tent, kneeling by a body lying on the ground. The sound of a knife slicing as Macbeth makes sure they’re dead, whomever they are. Then, he moves forward into the tent.

As he continues forward, he says things like, “Whiles I threat, he lives. Words to the heat of deeds too cold breath gives.”

Remember, this is Shakespeare.

Macbeth continues into the tent. He’s standing beside the bed now, looking down at the man sleeping. No one else is in the room. When the camera cuts to a closeup of the man in the bed, we can see his face a lot better now. It’s David Thewlis’ character, Duncan.

If the actor’s name doesn’t ring a bell, you might know him better as Lupin from the Harry Potter franchise.

His eyes are closed as he’s sleeping peacefully amid the flickering candlelight, completely unaware that Macbeth is standing over him. Then, his eyes open slowly, but he doesn’t move. He just looks up at Macbeth, who slowly puts his own hand over Duncan’s mouth. Then, we can see the silhouette of a long knife—the dagger from the boy. Positioning it over Duncan’s chest, Macbeth shoves down on the knife with one hand while his other hand muffles Duncan’s cries.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie Macbeth

I almost feel bad saying this after our conspiracy theory-laden segment for The Philadelphia Experiment, but this scene from Macbeth also never happened.

While the movie is faithful to Shakespeare’s version of the story. In the play, Macbeth kills Duncan of Scotland by stabbing him while he’s sleeping, just like we see in the movie.

In the true story, though, King Duncan I was killed during battle.

But it was during a battle against the Macbeth, so at least Shakespeare got the idea of conflict between those two men right.

So, in the true story, Duncan was born somewhere around 1001 CE. Some sources even say he was born on August 15^th of that year, meaning this Thursday would’ve been his 1,023^rd birthday. Although I’ve also seen some sources saying he also died on the 15^th, and not the 14^th, which would mean there’s a chance he died on his 39^th birthday.

Duncan was the maternal grandson of Malcom II who, in turn, was King of Alba from 1005 to 1034. And it is true that back then, the Crown of Alba was passed back and forth between different lineages.

That concept was from generations before when the Scots and the Picts were united under a single king. At the time, they didn’t call it Scotland, but looking back on it through the lens of history that’s when many historians point to as the start of the Scotland we know of today.

Since most people didn’t make it to old age back then, the crown passed between different lineages to ensure someone strong enough to undertake the role would be in charge. Back and forth. That changed with Malcolm II, though, who tried to kill anyone else who might have a claim to the throne. As you can probably guess, the violent power grab was met with more violence.

But, even Malcolm II couldn’t escape old age. That brings us to Duncan, who ascended to the throne after Malcolm II died, on November 25^th, 1034, while he was in his 30s…Duncan was in his 30s, that is.

And that also brings us to Macbeth who, like Duncan, was also Malcolm II’s grandson. Macbeth challenged Duncan’s claim to the throne, so that is how the two cousins ended up at odds. Actually, there was a third cousin, too, Earl Thorfinn of Orkney, who teamed up with Macbeth against Duncan.

And so it was that the three cousins met on the field of battle near Elgin on August 15^th, 1040, and that’s where Duncan was killed. We don’t know if he was killed by Macbeth’s hand, or someone else’s, but that’s probably not too surprising from an event over a thousand years ago.

If you want to watch the movie’s version of events, in the show notes you’ll find a link to the 2015 adaptation of Macbeth, as well as some other resources to kickstart your own deep dive into the true story.

August 15th, 1945. Long Island, New York.

For our next segment, we’re going to the HBO miniseries The Pacific.

At the very beginning of the final episode, the scene fades up from black to reveal we’re inside a hospital. A line of beds are filled with men. We can hear a woman speaking, saying nothing of huge importance to the storyline but then the camera cuts closer to where we can see that she’s reading from a book, saying things like:

“…Then bethought them of the blessed boon of sleep; but Achilles still wept for thinking of his dear comrade…”

The series doesn’t mention this, but that’s Homer’s Iliad.

The camera pans over to a couple of the guys in the hospital beds. The man further away from the camera is heavily bandaged. His fingers, wrist, arm, head, eye, all have bandages…there’s also a metal contraption of some sort around his chest, neck, and although the camera angle makes it hard to see everything it looks like there might be something attached to his legs, too.

In the foreground of the camera’s shot is a man without any visible bandages. Neither of the men are paying attention to the woman reading to them, but the man in the foreground is reading the newspaper. It looks like he’s reading the comic strips.

Oh, there we go, she just noticed they’re not paying attention to her. She puts down the book and says, “Hey, you’re not listening to me.”

Putting a cigarette to his mouth as he puts down the paper, the man who was reading the comics says they were listening. He puts a cigarette in the other guy’s mouth—I’m guessing he can’t move his arms enough to smoke on his own. Each of the men take a drag on their cigarettes, the smoke swirling as they blow out.

He recites the last few things she read, proving he was paying attention. Then, he looks back at the newspaper and suggests he read a comic to the other guy all bandaged up.

In the background, we can hear a door open.

The camera cuts to a man walking into the room. He looks around. Then, addressing no one in particular, he blurts out the news. The Japanese have surrendered.

Everyone looks at him, including the two men who were preoccupied by the comics and being read to.

The man standing there smiles, laughs a bit. Then he continues, “The war’s over!” He says.

Murmurs start among everyone in the room. A woman’s voice in the back confirms the news as we can see a nurse excitedly saying it’s definite. It’s on the radio! The war is over!

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the TV series The Pacific

Let’s start fact-checking how The Pacific shows that event now. And just to be clear, the event I’m talking about from this week in history is when Japan surrendered on August 15^th, 1945, bringing World War II to an end. Or, as it’s sometimes called, V-J Day. Victory over Japan Day.

It’s also known as V-P Day or Victory in the Pacific Day, since it’s the Pacific Theater of the war as opposed to the European Theater. When that came to an end with the fall of Nazi Germany, May 8^th, 1945, became known as V-E Day, Victory in Europe. We talked about back in episode #318 for the BOATS This Week episode covering May 8^th, 1945. So, I thought it’d be fitting to use how another HBO miniseries covers V-J Day.

Although, it’s worth pointing out that is not technically when Japan surrendered.

V-J Day or V-P Day, whichever you prefer, is commonly known as August 15^th, 1945. But that wasn’t the official surrender. That commemorates the announcement of surrender. Or, due to time zone differences, August 14^th in the United States is when it was broadcast. So, the series is correct to suggest that’d be when people found out about it, and even today some people refer to both August 14^th and the 15^th as V-J Day. However, the formal surrender happened a couple weeks later, on September 2^nd. That’s also why sometimes people refer to September 2^nd as V-J Day.

So, you’ll get some historical sticklers out there who point out its September 2^nd, and technically they’re not wrong, but in The Pacific they mention August 15^th, which is why we’re including it this week. Of course, just like Band of Brothers doesn’t show the actual surrender itself, neither does The Pacific. It’s showing what happened on the day for the characters the series is about.

So, to give a little more historical context that we don’t see in the series, on July 26^th, 1945, the Allies sent the Japanese government what’s known as the Potsdam Declaration. That’s named after Potsdam, Germany, the name of the city where a conference between the three leading Allies took place to draw up a plan for peace.

Maybe you’ve seen the photograph of Winston Churchill, Harry S. Truman, and Joseph Stalin sitting together…that happened at the Potsdam Conference. If you haven’t seen it, I’ll add a link to it in the show notes for this episode.

The Declaration, though, essentially defined the terms of surrender for the Japanese. It was quite literally an unconditional surrender, as the end of the document said:

“We call upon the government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction.”

The Japanese government’s reply was “mokusatsu.” Or, basically, to ignore it. The exact meaning of that word has been debated ever since. The United States government took it as being ignored, though.

The decision to drop the atomic bombs was made and, on August 6^th, Little Boy was dropped on Hiroshima. On August 8^th, the Soviet Union officially declared war on Japan and launched an offensive into Japanese-occupied Manchuria with over a million Soviet soldiers. Then, on August 9^th, Fat Man was dropped on Nagasaki.

So, to summarize, what happened on August 15^th, was the Japanese government announced they would be accepting the Potsdam Declaration.

With the announcement, bombers on Tinian Island getting ready for a mission over Japan were called off. Or, at least, put on hold to make sure the Japanese announcement was something they were going to follow through with.

They did.

The formal document of surrender was signed on the deck of USS Missouri in Tokyo Bay on September 2^nd, 1945.

If you want to watch this week in history as it’s shown in HBO’s The Pacific, the text on screen saying it’s August 15^th, 1945, is how the 10^th and final episode of the series begins. And we covered the entire ten-part HBO miniseries in our own three-part miniseries so you can learn the true story in all its historical detail over at basedonatruestorypodcast.com/thepacific

Historical birthdays from the movies

Let’s move onto our next segment now, where we learn about historical figures from the movies that were born this week in history.

On August 13th, 1860, Phoebe Ann Moses was born just east of North Star, Ohio. She was better known by her stage name, Annie Oakley, who earned fame as a sharpshooter in Buffalo Bill’s Wild West show. She’s been portrayed in a number of movies, including 1950’s Annie Get Your Gun, which is a movie based on the extremely popular musical of the same name by Irving Berlin.

On August 14th, 1851, John Henry Holliday was born in Griffin, Georgia. Most people know him by his nickname, Doc. Doc Holliday’s involvement in the Gunfight at the O.K. Corral in Tombstone, Arizona has seen him portrayed in a number of movies and TV shows. Probably one of the more popular of those is the 1993 film simply called Tombstone where Doc Holliday is played by Val Kilmer. We’ve covered that movie three times over the years, actually. One is a solo episode with just me, one is with the excellent podcaster Chris Wimmer from Legends of the Old West, and the other is with Tom Clavin who wrote the book “Tombstone” and all of them are linked in the show notes.

On August 15th, 1769, Napoleon Bonaparte was born on the Mediterranean island of Corsica. I’m sure you already know who Napoleon was—the French military leader and emperor who conquered a lot of Europe. Have you seen the Ridley Scott biographical movie from last year? There’s so much to talk about with Napoleon, we’ve covered that movie twice with two different historians covering different elements of the movie, so you’ll find those links in the show notes as well.

On August 16th, 1888, Thomas Edward Lawrence was born in Wales. Although he usually went by his initials, T.E. Lawrence. Or, as he’s more commonly known today, Lawrence of Arabia. He was a British officer who gained fame for his involvement in the Arab Revolt against the Ottoman Empire during World War I. He was played by Peter O’Toole in the 1962 classic film that’s named after him: Lawrence of Arabia.

‘Based on a True Story’ movie that released this week

Time now for our segment about ‘based on a true story’ movies released this week in history.

Actually, I have two of them for you this week, and they both released this week back in 1979.

Thursday is the 45^th anniversary of the widescale release in the United States of Francis Ford Coppola’s classic, Apocalypse Now.

The movie stars Marlon Brando as Colonel Walter E. Kurtz, Martin Sheen as Captain Benjamin Willard, and Robert Duvall as Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore.

None of those were real people, which tells you a bit about the historical accuracy of the movie, but then again, the movie doesn’t really try to claim they are. It’s one of those movies that uses a real historical event and maybe inspired by some real people, but for the most part uses a fake storyline to tell the tale.

For example, like Saving Private Ryan where Private Ryan was not a real person—check out BOATS episode #159.

For Apocalypse Now, Marlon Brando’s character of Colonel Kurtz is entirely fictional, although he’s not made up for the movie. He’s made up for the book the movie is based on. That would be Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness.

Or, perhaps, “inspired by” is a better phrase, because Conrad’s book was published in 1899, and it has the character of Colonel Kurtz in that book. He was an ivory dealer in the book, but the mere fact that the book was published in 1899 means obviously the Vietnam War hadn’t happened yet. With that said, though, that doesn’t mean the filmmakers didn’t use contemporary soldiers as inspiration for the Vietnam era version of Kurtz.

The name that popped up most in my research was a CIA paramilitary operations officer named Anthony Poshepny, better known as Tony Poe.

As for Martin Sheen’s character in the movie, Captain Willard, he was most likely based on another character from Heart of Darkness named Charles Marlow. And Marlow was completely made up for the book, although some have suggested perhaps his name came from an Elizabethan playwright named Christopher Marlowe, with an “e” at the end.

Of the main characters in the movie, that leaves Robert Duvall’s character, Lt. Col. Bill Kilgore, and I’m guessing by now you get the idea for how this goes. Just like Colonel Kurtz, Lt. Col. Kilgore was based on someone real, though. In this case, it’s John Stockton. No, not the NBA Hall of Fame, all-time assists and steals leader basketball player. Colonel John B. Stockton was in command of the 1^st squadron, 9^th Cavalry in the 1960s during the Vietnam War; and Robert Duvall used him as inspiration for his portrayal of Kilgore.

I’ll include a photo of Colonel Stockton in the show notes in case you want to see what he looks like.

And while you’re there, you’ll find a link to where Apocalypse Now is streaming if you want to watch it this week.

So, that’s one of the two movies this week. If you’re not feeling a war movie, just two days after Apocalypse Now hit theaters in 1979, Monty Python’s Life of Brian was released. That’d be on August 17^th, 1979, which makes Saturday the 45^th anniversary of that movie’s release.

I’m sure you already know what Life of Brian is…it tells the story of, well, Brian.

He’s just a normal guy. There’s really nothing special about him other than the fact that he was born just next door to Jesus, so everyone thinks he’s the Messiah. Then he joins a revolutionary group called the People’s Front of Judea to try and overthrow Roman rule, all the while masterfully tying together the story of historical Jesus into the tale—but in a comedic way because it’s Brian.

Tell you what, I could try to unravel the history and the religion from the movie and the comedy, but there’s someone much more knowledgeable than I am who can help with this because episode #205, I had a chat Dr. Adele Reinhartz about Life of Brian. Here’s a clip of my chat with her about what she thinks about how well the movie sets up the Brian character:

Dan LeFebvre  01:43

The movie opens with a spoof on the birth of baby Jesus, three wise men show up at two o’clock in the morning to worship the baby. They explain to Mandy, the baby’s mother, that they were led there by a star. She’s about to shoo them away when one of the wise men says we must see him. We have presence, gold, frankincense, myrrh, and Mandy’s replies like, oh, well, why didn’t you say so? He’s right over here. And then we find out the baby’s name is Brian. But what did you think of that opening sequence? In the movie? Looking at it from a historical perspective?

Adele Reinhartz  02:16

Well, first of all, it’s 100%. Hilarious. I agree. And it shows us the character of Mandy right away. And then of course, at the end of this season, they realize they see another another major, who lit up, and they realize they’ve been at the wrong place, and they take their gifts back. So that’s kind of funny. From a historical point of view, it’s it’s very difficult to assess this is based on the account in the Gospel of Matthew in the infancy narrative about the Magi coming to visit. And we don’t know the historicity of that, but the scene itself and in the movie, is really a take off on how that scene is presented in Christmas cards, in Christmas pageants and in other Jesus movies. So you’ve got the star making its way slowly across the sky. And then, you know, this atmosphere of reverence with the sacred music, and then you’ve got Mandy. So it really sets up that record the still is going to be about or at the film is going to do, which is essentially take some of the building blocks both of the Gospels, but also of Jesus movies, and Jesus and popular culture, and make fun of them.

Dan LeFebvre  03:40

Now, one of the overarching themes throughout the movie, of course, is the idea that Brian gets misidentified as Jesus was that a common thing misidentification back then?

Adele Reinhartz  03:50

I think that that’s really a part of the film’s comic premise. And it allows them to be free and how they portray Brian. The film is interesting the film was, they had a hard time getting it released commercially. And in the end, I think it was triggered through the intervention of George Harrison, it finally did get released. And the reason was that people were worried that it was blasphemous or that it portray Jesus in a negative light. If you actually see the film Jesus is in the brief moments when Jesus is there on the screen is completely reverential. The fun is with Brian, and I think that’s really why they did it not so much because misunder mis identification was a common theme. But because it allowed them a certain freedom to portray Brian without the constraints that filmmakers face when they try to portray Jesus.

You’ll find a link to my full chat with Adele about Life of Brian in the show notes, as well as where you can find it on streaming…in case you want to give it a watch before listening to the true story.

July 1st, 1916. Northern France.

The sky is an eerie yellow-orange color. Silhouetted against the eerie light in the foreground we can see two soldiers wearing British-style helmets. While they face the left side of the camera’s frame, another soldier walks on the right side of the frame in the trenches. Also, on the right side we can see posts with barbed wire strung between them.

The camera cuts to a soldier sitting in one of the trenches. Text on the screen tells us it’s 5:30 AM. The soldier is smoking a cigarette as he writes something down, presumably a letter. When the camera angle cuts closer, we can see his face a little better. This is Daniel Craig’s character, Sgt. Telford Winter. After examining the letter one last time, Winter folds it up and puts it into an envelope. Then, he picks up his rifle and puts on his helmet.

He walks down the trench a little way and says “good morning” to some other soldiers. It’s still very dark, so it’s hard to see how many soldiers are there, but I can count at least five or six at any one time on screen. It makes for what looks like cramped quarters in the trenches.

A few minutes further into the movie, it’s brighter outside now as the sun seems to have risen further. The battle is about to begin.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie The Trench

That is how the 1999 movie called The Trench shows an event that happened this week in history…and right up front it’s helpful to know this movie is trying to capture the essence of what it was like for the British soldiers leading up to the battle. So, it’s not going to be entirely accurate to everything that happened or even the soldiers who were there. For example, I couldn’t find anything in my research to suggest Daniel Craig’s character, Sgt. Winter, was based on a specific soldier.

With that said, though, the movie is correct to show the Battle of the Somme starting this week in history on July 1^st, 1916. The name coming from the Somme River in Northern France.

By the end of July 1^st, the British Army alone suffered 57,000 casualties marking the bloodiest day in its history. The battle lasted for 140 days, from July 1^st to November 18^th, 1916, and in that time over three million soldiers fought.

The British suffered 420,000 casualties, the French around 200,000, and the Germans lost at least 450,000 men. So, with over a million men killed or wounded, the Battle of the Somme went down as one of the deadliest battles in human history.

Some people refer to the Battle of the Somme as the start of modern warfare because it was during this battle that the first tanks were used when the British sent them into action on September 15^th, 1916. It was also the first time a creeping barrage was used in battle. That’s when artillery continues to move forward to lay cover for infantry close behind it.

Well, I guess, technically that wasn’t the first time—the Bulgarians used a creeping barrage during the siege of Adrianople in March of 1913, but with the start of World War I in 1914, most of the rest of the world had already forgotten about that event and in a way it was re-invented at the Battle of the Somme.

If you want to watch the depiction on screen, check out the 1999 movie called The Trench. Most of the movie is set this week in history as it starts on June 29^th, 1916, but the beginning of July 1^st starts at an hour, eight minutes and 47 seconds into the film.

July 3rd, 1776. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

A piece of paper reading July 2 is torn off to reveal the new date underneath. July 3.

We’re inside a large room with tall ceilings. And we’re not alone; there are a number of well-dressed men sitting at desks scattered throughout the room.

David Ford’s version of John Hancock bangs a gavel on his desk and stands up. He addresses the room, asking if there are any objections to the declaration as it stands now. William Daniels’ character, John Adams, stands up and says he has one. He points out that the correct word is “unalienable” and not “inalienable.”

Ken Howard’s version of Thomas Jefferson replies by saying that, no, “inalienable” is the correct word. Adams disagrees. The men in the room murmur. Calling the room to order by banging the gavel again, Hancock asks if Jefferson will yield to Mr. Adams’ request. Jefferson refuses.

After a moment, Adams withdraws his objection and sits back down.

Then, John Hancock puts a large piece of paper on the desk. The camera cuts to a closeup as we see him signing his name beneath all the writing. Someone comments how large his signature is and Hancock replies it’s so “Fat George” in London can read it without his glasses. Everyone laughs at this.

Hancock tells everyone to step up. “Don’t miss your chance to commit treason,” he says.

Just then, a messenger enters the room and hands a piece of paper off. Standing in front of everyone, it’s read aloud. The message is a report. It says the eve of battle is near. It also says the forces consist entirely of Haslet’s Delaware Militia and Smallwood’s Marylanders—5,000 troops to stand against 25,000 of the enemy.

The laughing from just a moment ago turns to a somber note as everyone realizes this is serious. The report continues to say the enemy is in plain sight beyond the river. We do not know how this will end, but there will be brave men lost before it does. The report is signed, “G. Washington.”

As the reading of the report is finished, William Duell’s version of Andrew McNair gets up from his chair. He steps up to the piece of paper that reads July 3. Tearing off the top piece, now it is July 4.

Hancock instructs McNair to ring the bell.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie 1776

That is how the movie called 1776 tells the story of an event that happened this week in history when the Continental Congress approved the Declaration of Independence on July 4^th, 1776.

The true story? Well, it’s not really what we see in the movie. But that’s not too surprising because even though it’s not so obvious from the segment we’re talking about today, the movie 1776 is a musical interpretation of the events.

With that said, though, it is true that John Hancock was the first person to sign the Declaration of Independence. And his signature was the largest and horizontally centered on the Declaration—that’s why the saying of leaving one’s “John Hancock” is a term people use for signing a document today.

The other people in the movie are based on real people in history, too. Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and the custodian in Continental Congress, Andrew McNair, was known as the official ringer of the Liberty Bell.

Although the movie’s timeline is simplifying things quite a bit, too.

What really happened on July 4^th, 1776 was that after the final wording was approved on the Fourth, a handwritten copy of the Declaration of Independence was sent to a nearby print shop owned by a man named John Dunlap. That night, Dunlap got to work on printing a couple hundred copies of it for distribution.

On July 6^th, the first newspaper printed a copy of the Declaration.

And while it is likely that Andrew McNair was the one to ring the Liberty Bell to announce independence, that didn’t happen until July 8^th. They had delayed it by four days to allow for printing the document for the first public readings of the document. That reading happened on July 8^th.

From there, the word started to spread like wildfire. On July 9^th, John Hancock sent a copy to George Washington who read it to his troops in New York City. Crowds of people started to tear down statues and anything representing British or royal authority.

As a quick side note, the movie’s joke about “Fat George” isn’t referencing George Washington—you probably already guessed that. It’s referring to King George III, who was the monarch on the British throne at the time.

While British officials sent copies back to Great Britain, it wasn’t until mid-August that the Declaration was printed in British newspapers.

If you want to see this week in history as it’s shown in the movie, check out the 1972 film called 1776. Andrew McNair tearing off the paper to mention it’s July 3^rd started at about two hours, 39 minutes into the movie while July 4^th starts a little later at two hours, 43 minutes and 38 seconds.

And as a little bit of extra trivia knowledge for you to share with your friends and family this July 4^th, it was actually 20 years later that Independence Day was celebrated for the first time: July 4^th, 1796.

And in a bizarre twist of fate, it was exactly 50 years after America’s birthday that two of the Founding Fathers mentioned in this segment died when Thomas Jefferson and John Adams both passed away on July 4^th, 1826. They died within five hours of each other. Exactly five years after that, another Founding Father died when James Monroe passed away on July 4^th, 1831. Jefferson, Adams, and Monroe were not only Founding Fathers but they were the second, third, and fifth President of the United States, respectively.

July 4th, 1939. New York, New York.

Our next movie is in black and white. In the foreground, a man sits in front of a microphone doing something a lot like what I’m doing right now: Describing what he sees happening in front of him.

Except he’s not describing a movie like I am. On the other side of the table with his microphone we can see some netting, and beyond that a huge baseball stadium. He’s the radio announcer for the game.

He tells us that 62,000 people have jammed into Yankee Stadium this afternoon to pay tribute to the man who gave his all to the team for the past 16 years.

The camera cuts a little closer a marching band in uniform on the field, and it’s obvious there’s not an empty seat in the house. There are shots of fans enjoying the performance on the field as the radio announcer continues to talk about the man known as Larruping Lou and the Iron Man playing 2,130 consecutive games over those 16 years.

Now, he says, everyone is here to say farewell to Lou Gehrig—the pride of the Yankees.

In the tunnel, Gary Cooper’s version of Gehrig is wearing a Yankees uniform. By his side is his wife, Eleanor Gehrig. She’s played by Teresa Wright in the film. Slowly, they walk hand-in-hand, down the stairs. Lou stops part-way down and looks back at Teresa, who smiles at her husband.

Then, he lets go of her hand and continues down the dark tunnel to the light on the other side and out onto the field. The camera cuts back to Eleanor so we can’t see Lou stepping onto the field, but we can hear the crowd erupting into cheers. We can only assume they’re cheering at the sight of Lou on the field.

Instead of seeing him, though, we can see tears in Eleanor’s eyes for a moment before bursting into a full sob. She continues crying until the camera cuts back to the field.

Now we can see two rows of uniformed baseball players. On the right side of the frame are players in Yankee pinstripes. On the left side is a row of players with a “W” on their arm. All of them have their hats off, and they’re all looking at home plate in the center of the frame.

There, on the far side of where the camera is angled, we can see more people near home plate. Some are wearing business suits. There’s a podium with a banner of stars and stripes by the plate. And then there’s Lou Gehrig, wearing #4 on the back of his Yankees uniform.

Although it’s not visible in the movie, based on how this scene is framed it looks like the camera is on the pitcher’s mound with Gehrig and the other men by home plate and both teams lining the space from the mound to home.

The radio announcer continues to describe what’s going on as he says the Yankee’s manager Joe McCarthy hands Lou Gehrig a plaque. And then, just as he describes, on the screen in the movie we can see actor Harry Harvey’s version of Yankee manager Joe McCarthy hand Gary Cooper’s version of Lou Gehrig a plaque. Most of the writing is too small to read, but the headline at the top clearly says “Don’t Quit” in all caps.

McCarthy puts the plaque down, now, and turns to be handed a trophy. He then gives the trophy to Gehrig. It’s from his teammates on the Yankees, as a token of their appreciation for him. As Gehrig holds the trophy, the camera cuts back to the angle with the rows of players and we can see all of them start clapping for Gehrig. In the stands, everyone follows the players and they give Gehrig a standing ovation.

Then, a man in a suit identified by the radio announcer as New York City Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia steps up to the podium with his back to the camera but facing toward the crowd behind home plate. We can’t hear what he’s saying, but he seems to say something briefly before turning to Gehrig and giving him a hearty handshake before making way for yet another man in a suit who steps up to the podium.

The radio announcer tells us this is the Postmaster General of the United States, Tim Farley. And again, he seems to say something to the crowd that we can’t hear. And again, only a few seconds later, he turns to shake Gehrig’s hand before leaving the podium for the next person.

Wearing a white suit, that person is identified by the announcer as none other than the Sultan of Swat: Babe Ruth. After saying something into the mic, he walks over to Gehrig to give him a handshake. This time the movie cuts up close to show Babe Ruth putting his arm around Lou Gehrig. After a moment, Ruth lets go of Gehrig and walks off.

Yankees Manager Joe McCarthy steps up to the podium now. Then, he gives Gehrig another handshake and walks with him to the podium. Finally, it’s Lou Gehrig’s turn to address the crowd.

As Gehrig steps up, the crowd goes crazy. They had sat back down, but now again everyone gives him another standing ovation. At the microphones, Gehrig takes in some deep breaths with his eyes cast down to the ground. Then he looks up as if to speak, but the crowd is still cheering, hooping, and hollering. He smiles a little bit as he looks around.

Then, he opens his mouth, and the crowd starts to quiet.

By the time Gary Cooper’s version of Lou Gehrig speaks, the crowd is hushed so they can hear what he has to say.

“I have been walking on ball fields for 16 years, and I have never received anything but kindness and encouragement from you fans. I have had the great honor to have played with these great veteran ballplayers on my left, Murderer’s Row, our championship team of 1927. I have had the further honor of living with and playing with these men on my right, the Bronx Bombers, the Yankees of today. I have been given fame and undeserved praise by the boys up there behind the wire in the press box. I have worked under the two greatest managers of all time, Miller Huggins and Joe McCarthy. I have a mother and father who fought to give me health and a solid background in my youth.”

The camera cuts to show an older man and woman, who we can assume are his mother and father. She puts a handkerchief to her face in a move that looks as if she’s dabbing away tears. Back on the field, Gehrig continues his speech. And now we can see what looks like tears starting to grow in his eyes, too.

“I have a wife, a companion for life…”

Again, the camera cuts away, this time to Eleanor who is still in the same place in the tunnel where Lou left her. She’s still crying, but a slight smile crosses her face when he talks about her.

“…who has shown me more courage than I ever knew. People all say that I have had a bad break. But today…today, I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth.”

With that, Gehrig covers his mouth in thought for a brief moment before turning away from the microphones and the crowd goes wild. He walks past Babe Ruth, Joe McCarthy, and the rest of the Yankees. The crowd continues to cheer as he walks toward the third base dugout.

When he reaches the dugout, the movie cuts closer as he walks down the steps and back into the tunnel he came from a few minutes earlier. As Gehrig disappears out of the sunlight and into the shadows of the dark tunnel, in the background we can hear the umpire yelling, “Play ball!”

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie The Pride of the Yankees

That is how the 1942 movie called The Pride of the Yankees shows an event that happened this week in history: Lou Gehrig’s final public appearance at Yankee Stadium just a few years before the movie on July 4th, 1939.

If you’re a baseball fan, you know who he was…if you’re not a baseball fan, Lou Gehrig was one of the greatest players in Major League Baseball history.

Gehrig’s final appearance at Yankee Stadium, however, wasn’t to play a baseball game. It was to say goodbye.

Let’s get some more historical context that we don’t see in the movie’s segment I just described. To do that, we’ll go back about a year earlier to the Yankee’s 1938 season.

As that season progressed, Gehrig started noticing more and more that something was off. He couldn’t figure out exactly what it was, but his hands would ache, and he just couldn’t hit as well as he used to. So, he adjusted his swing, his stance, and the weight of his bat while his manager moved him in the batting order to try to get him out of his slumps throughout the season.

Of course, his slumps didn’t change that he was still Lou Gehrig. Even with signs of an issue, he worked hard to overcome it. In the 1938 season, Lou Gehrig hit .295 with 29 homers and 113 RBIs. So, he still had a great year.

But then, during the offseason, things didn’t get better. They got worse. Much worse. Gehrig’s balance was off. He wouldn’t be able to grasp things as well.

In the movie, we see Teresa Wright’s character, Eleanor Gehrig. And that really was Lou Gehrig’s wife’s name.

And in the true story, during the offseason as her husband was more clumsy than usual by dropping items or tripping over curbs, she started to be worried it might be something more. Maybe a brain tumor?

So, she and Lou went to the doctor. The diagnosis was a bad gallbladder, and he put Lou on a diet of fruits and veggies.

Even before the 1939 season started, during spring training, things had degraded enough to be noticeable to some of Gehrig’s teammates. They could tell he wasn’t right. But, he’s still Lou Gehrig…so, of course, when the 1939 season officially started, he was in the lineup just like he was in every game.

But he started in a bad slump. A career .340 hitter, Gehrig started the 1939 season hitting only .143. Not only that, but Gehrig could tell things hadn’t gotten better.

So, Gehrig asked to be taken out of the lineup. He did that on May 2nd, 1939, meaning his last game on April 30th was officially the end of his consecutive game streak playing in 2,130 games over 14 years. We learned more about that on episode #316 of Based on a True Story for the week that happened.

After taking himself out of the lineup, for the rest of May he still suited up and traveled with the team even though he didn’t play. In June, he tried playing again in a minor league exhibition game. He didn’t last the whole game, though, so he and Eleanor went back to the doctors to get more answers. Within a few weeks, those doctors diagnosed him with amyotrophic lateral sclerosis or ALS…or, as it’s most commonly known today, “Lou Gehrig’s Disease.”

Taking a step back for how fast a lot of this happened for the public, the 1939 season started in April as it did for the past 14 years with Gehrig continuing his consecutive games streak. On June 21st, 1939, the world found out Gehrig was officially retiring from baseball.

And then, on July 4th, 1939, the Yankees were playing a double-header against the Washington Senators. Between the two games, they held a special ceremony they simply called Lou Gehrig Appreciation Day. The movie was correct to show a few people addressing the sold-out crowd, including the mayor of New York City, Fiorello LaGuardia, as well as the Postmaster General, a man named James Farley.

The movie was also correct to show bands playing as they march around the field. It was also correct to show the framed sign given to Gehrig with the headline “Don’t Quit.” I’ll include a link in the show notes for some actual footage from the event where you can see those things.

Something we don’t really see in the movie, though, is that after others expressed their appreciation for Gehrig, the man himself almost didn’t speak to the crowd. The emcee for the event, reporter Sid Mercer, announced Gehrig, but he didn’t step up to the mics. Instead, he whispered something into Mercer’s ear who, in turn, told the crowd that Gehrig was too moved to speak but he asked Mercer to thank everyone.

Imagine being in a stadium packed with people–the movie mentions 62,000 people, but in the true story it was actually 61,808. I guess we can give it to the movie, though, haha! But all those people started chanting, “We want Gehrig!”

So, Gehrig stepped up to the mics and gave what many people consider to be one of the most famous speeches in sports history. Let me set this up real quick…because you’re going to hear Lou’s voice and my voice…because, unfortunately, a recording of the whole speech doesn’t exist.

But we do have part of it; the rest of it has been filled in by historians through newspaper reports from the day. And you’ll notice in the movie they actually do the “luckiest man on the face of the earth” at the end, but in the real speech you’ll notice that’s how he starts the speech…so, let’s start with Lou’s actual audio from July 4th, 1939:

Fans, for the past two weeks, you’ve been reading about a bad break.

[pause]

Today I consider myself the luckiest man on the face of the earth.

I have been in ballparks for 17 years and have never received anything but kindness and encouragement from you fans.

When you look around, wouldn’t you consider it a privilege to associate yourself with such fine-looking men as are standing in uniform in this ballpark today?

Sure, I’m lucky.

Who wouldn’t consider it an honor to have known Jacob Ruppert? Also, the builder of baseball’s greatest empire, Ed Barrow? To have spent six years with that wonderful little fellow, Miller Huggins? Then to have spent the next nine years with that outstanding leader, that smart student of psychology, the best manager in baseball today, Joe McCarthy? Sure, I’m lucky.

When the New York Giants, a team you would give your right arm to beat, and vice versa, sends you a gift—that’s something. When everybody down to the groundskeepers and those boys in white coats remember you with trophies—that’s something. When you have a wonderful mother-in-law who takes sides with you in squabbles with her own daughter—that’s something. When you have a father and a mother who work all their lives so you can have an education and build your body—it’s a blessing. When you have a wife who has been a tower of strength and shown more courage than you dreamed existed—that’s the finest I know.

So I close in saying that I might have been given a bad break, but I’ve got an awful lot to live for. — Thank you.

In the movie, we see Babe Ruth at the ceremony. And that is very true. Not only was Babe Ruth at Lou Gehrig Appreciation day in 1939, but the real Babe Ruth played himself in the 1942 movie that re-enacted the event from this week in history.

If you want to watch that, hop into the show notes to find where you can watch The Pride of the Yankees. We started our segment from this week in history about two hours into the movie.

July 6th, 1917. Aqaba, Jordan.

A bell rings, alerting everyone to the attack.

The lookout ringing the bell is in a square-shaped defensive position lined with sandbags. On the sandy desert below, we can see rows of white tents. Tiny people in the distance are moving around the tents, mostly running in the opposite direction as the oncoming attackers.

From an angle behind the lookout, we can see the attackers charging in the distance. After he’s done ringing the bell, the lookout raises his rifle and shoots.

The camera cuts to a closer shot on the attackers. They’re all riding on either horses or camels, huge plumes of sand getting kicked up by what must be hundreds of horses charging the enemy ahead. One of the soldiers gets hit, presumably by the lookout’s shot. But it doesn’t slow anyone down as they gallop ahead.

All the men on horseback start ululating as they charge forward. Some of them are on camels, and the camera focuses on one of the men wearing all white as he urges his camel onward. The camera cuts to a further away shot and we can see the attackers on horses and camels rushing the encampment. They reach the white tents to be greeted by the sound of gunshots. Some of them fall, but others continue forward with the attack.

Defenders are cut down and before long, it seems obvious the attackers have the upper hand. The cinematic music swells as we see the attackers rushing passed the tents to the city behind it—pushing the defenders back toward the water just beyond the city.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie Lawrence of Arabia

That depiction comes from the 1962 film Lawrence of Arabia and it’s showing an event that happened this week in history on July 6^th, 1917, when Arab forces led by Sherif Nasir and Auda abu Tayi along with the British officer T.E. Lawrence defeated the Ottoman Empire at the important coastal city of Aqaba.

For a little more historical context, this whole conflict was part of the Middle Eastern theater of World War I, and the British were assisting the Arabs revolt against the Ottoman Empire.

This specific battle is referred to as the Battle of Aqaba, and in the movie, we see it being almost as if the attackers overrun the defenders. There seems to be hardly any slowing them down, and for the most part that’s true.

There were about 5,000 men in the Arab force that attacked about 1,100 defenders. The attack mostly came from the desert, although the British Navy assisted as well. Coming from the desert was a complete surprise to the Turks, though, because they assumed no one could make the 600-mile desert journey.

But, that’s exactly what they did.

And the result was a lopsided victory for the Arabs, with only two Arabs killed while the defending Turks suffered about 300 casualties.

As T.E. Lawrence wrote in his book:

The Arabs needed Akaba: firstly, to extend their front, which was their tactical principle; and, secondly, to link up with the British.

Or, in other words, because Aqaba was a port city, it allowed the British Royal Navy to help supply them from the water.

If you want to watch the event that happened this week in history, check out 1962’s Lawrence of Arabia and the day of the battle starts at about an hour and 47 minutes into the movie. And if you want to dig deeper into the true story, we covered that back on episode #49 of Based on a True Story.

STOPPED RECORDING HERE

July 7th, 1947. New Mexico.

A line of military vehicles are driving along a dirt road. It seems to be a mixture of larger transport trucks and some smaller Jeeps. The terrain around the dirt road is desolate with little more than rocks, sagebrush, and dirt.

One of the men in one of the Jeeps points ahead, “There it is!”

We can catch a glimpse of some smoke rising up from something ahead.

In the next shot, it’s a little easier to see what’s happening. There’s a depression in the terrain. Along the ridge, men in military uniforms walk up to look at the smoke billowing out from below. Not everyone is in military uniforms, though, a couple of the men are in plainclothes.

Now we can see what’s causing the fire. A huge pile of tires are burning. Orange flames and black smoke are flying into the sky.

One of the military men, who seems to be an officer, barks out orders to other soldiers to put the fire out. There’s a flag in the middle of the flames.

“Get that flag out of there!” the officer yells.

As the soldiers spring to action, one of the plainclothes men wearing a white hat notices one of the soldiers carrying a box. The soldier says it’s locked. It’s a little easier to identify the men now, and the man in a white hat is Aidan Gillen’s character, Dr. J. Allen Hynek. He turns to the other plainclothes man, Michael Malarkey’s character, Captain Michael Quinn, and asks him when the original crash was reported in the press.

Quinn says it was July 8^th, 1947. Hynek uses that code to unlock the combination lock on the box. It works. Inside is a single piece of paper. Quinn reads it:

“In 1947, alien spacecraft crashed in this desert. Before you stands the man who covered it all up, General Harding. Tomorrow at 9 am I will show the world proof of what really happened in Roswell, New Mexico.”

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the TV series Project Blue Book

Okay, so there’s a few things to separate here to get to the true story.

Let’s start with where this scene comes from, it’s from the first episode of season two in the History Channel’s TV series called Project Blue Book.

Dr. J. Allen Hynek was a real person who really was in charge of Project Blue Book—that’s what the U.S. Air Force called their official investigation into UFOs. The character of Captain Quinn, though, is a fictional character.

And I’ll admit up front this sequence is not showing something that happened in 1947. The reason for that is because the TV series is set much later, so this is a fictional scene to try and backtrack and talk about one of the world’s most popular conspiracy theories: The UFO crash at Roswell, New Mexico.

Also, the date the TV show just mentioned is right, although you’ll notice that the series mentioned that’s when it was reported in the press…not when it actually happened.

That’s a bit of a loaded phrase, isn’t it? I mean, when it comes to the topic of a UFO crash…did it actually happen at all? Plenty of folks will disregard it simply because of the topic.

Well, if we could say without a shadow of a doubt then it wouldn’t really be a conspiracy theory, would it? But, regardless of whether or not you believe the Roswell crash was a real event, no one can deny that the story of what supposedly happened around July 7^th in Roswell has had an impact on countless people around the world.

As the story goes, a rancher named W.W. Brazel, who goes by the nickname “Mac”, found some debris scattered in a field. That happened in June of 1947. But his ranch didn’t have a phone or a radio, so he didn’t think much of it until he was driving to town on July 5^th. There, he heard stories of flying disks being seen. For example, a pilot named Kenneth Arnold had seen what the press quickly referred to as flying saucers on June 24^th, 1947. Just the day before “Mac” Brazel went into town, on July 4^th, United Airlines Flight #105 also talked about seeing some flying disks.

Countless other copycat sightings started popping up fast as word spread about the flying disks.

So, hearing some of these stories, Brazel was reminded of the debris he saw in the field. So, a couple of days later, on July 7^th, he took some of the debris into the sheriff’s office in Roswell. The sheriff called the Roswell Army Air Field nearby, and one of the officers, a man named Major Jesse Marcel, went out to the field with Brazel where he found the debris. Marcel didn’t take the debris right to the airfield. Instead, he simply took it home for the night and delivered it the next morning when he went to work.

The next day, on July 8^th, the public information officer at Roswell Army Air Field released a statement that a “flying disk” had been recovered from a ranch near Roswell. It hit the papers and news reports soon after. The Roswell Daily Record newspaper ran a story on July 8^th, 1947 with the headline: “RAAF Captures Flying Saucer On Ranch in Roswell Region.”

RAAF standing for Roswell Army Air Field.

Now, I’ll play a clip from a radio broadcast on July 8^th, 1947 that talks about the flying disk at Roswell. But before I play it, just so you know there are some other new items mentioned as well. I thought about cutting that out, but I decided to leave it unedited so you can hear the report as it was broadcast.

So, here it is:

Note: This transcript is automatically generated.

On July 8, 1947, the Army Air Forces has announced that a flying disk has been found and is now in the possession of the Army. Army officers say the missile found sometime last week has been inspected at Roswell, New Mexico, and sent to right field, Ohio, for further inspection. Russia has demanded U.N. action to get all foreign military personnel out of Greece. Southern Cross collaborators have not yet reached agreement with John Lewis, but the rest of the soft coal industry has resumed production. The House of Representatives has passed the tax reduction bill by more than the two thirds, which would be required to override a veto. Headline of this new special report and set of views in a moment. The American Broadcasting Company had a period in session for that headline edition received a grant from all over the world forever. The day’s headlines were made headline figures and brings you accurate, timely reports on the news behind both headlines, plus informative and personal interviews with the men and women who made the headlines today. Today’s edition presents a roundup of the latest developments in the finding of a flying and eye witness report of the day’s significant actions at the UN Security Council. Ohio Congressman Thomas Duncan commenting on today’s House action on tax legislation. A special report on the status of so-called negotiations and the details of today’s All-Star Baseball game, reportedly because they ended up with history in the making. Stay tuned to headline Now is telegraphed late this afternoon, a bulletin from New Mexico suggested that the widely publicized mystery of the flying saucers may soon be solved. Army Air Force officers reported that one of the flames had been found and inspected sometime last week. Our correspondents in Los Angeles and Chicago have been in contact with Army officials endeavoring to obtain all possible late information. Joe Wilson reports to us now from Chicago that he may be getting to the bottom of all this talk about the so-called flying saucers. As a matter of fact, the 509th Atomic Bomb Group headquarters at Roswell, New Mexico. Reports that it has received one of the deaths which landed on a ranch outside Roswell. This landed at a ranch at Corona, New Mexico, and the rancher turned it over to the Air Force. Roger W w Rozelle was the man who discovered this office. William Blanford of the Roswell Air Base refuses to get details of what the plane this looked like in Fort Worth, Texas, where the object was first sent. Brigadier General Roger Ramey says that it is being shipped by air to the ADF Research Center at Wright Field, Ohio, moments ago. I talked to officials at Right Field and they declared that they expect the so-called flame supper to be delivered there, but that it hasn’t arrived as yet. In the meantime, General Ramey describes the object as being a flimsy construction, almost like a bus. So he says that it was so bad, but he was unable to determine whether it had a disc form, and it does not indicate its size. Rainey says that so far as can be determined, no one saw the object in the air, and he described it as being made of some sort of tin foil. Other Army officials say that further information indicates that the object had a diameter of about 20 to 25 feet and that nothing in the operation section indicated any capacity for speed and that there was no evidence of a power plant. This also appeared to flimsy the carrier man. Now back to photograph in New York. There was important activity within the U.N. Security Council today.

The next day, the Army said it wasn’t a flying disk at all. As the story goes, Major Marcel reported to the commanding officer at RAAF, Colonel William Blanchard. Colonel Blanchard, in turn, reported to General Roger Ramey at the Fort Worth Army Air Field in Texas. General Ramey ordered them to fly the debris to him, so Major Marcel did that. As soon as Marcel arrived, he showed the debris to General Ramey who recognized it as pieces of a high-altitude weather balloon.

So, the story of the flying disk was retracted and, for the most part, forgotten. That changed in the 1970s when Major Marcel was interviewed by a man named Stanton Friedman. In that interview, Marcel said the story of the weather balloon was a cover-up and the debris he saw was extraterrestrial. In 1991, a retired USAF General named Thomas DuBose who was one of the men posing for press photographs of the debris in 1947 also said Marcel was correct in saying the weather balloon story was a cover-up.

And so, the story has been talked about ever since.

If you want to watch the way story is shown on screen, check out the History Channel’s TV series called Project Blue Book. Because of the timeline of the series, it doesn’t really show the event itself but the first two episodes of the second season are dedicated to it. And if you want to go deeper down the rabbit hole, so to speak, I’ve covered Project Blue Book multiple times from different angles, and you can find them all at basedonatruestorypodcast.com/projectbluebook.

Let’s move onto our next segment now, where we learn about historical figures from the movies that were born this week in history…and we had five events in this week’s supersize episode, so why not have five historical birthdays, too?

On July 1st, 1899, Henry Walton Jones, Jr. was born in Princeton, New Jersey. He’s best known by his nickname: Indiana Jones. Haha! Okay, so he’s obviously not a historical figure…but if you’re interested in historical movies, I’m sure you know who he is so I couldn’t help but include him. Do you have a favorite Indiana Jones movie? It’s Last Crusade for me, but I was surprisingly impressed with the latest movie that just came out last year—Dial of Destiny. Did you see that one yet? Hop into the Based on a True Story Discord and let’s chat about it!

Also on July 1st, but in 1921, Seretse Khama was born in Serowe, Botswana. He was a politician who served as the first president of Botswana and the story of his controversial marriage was told in the 2016 film A United Kingdom where Seretse was played by David Oyelowo. We covered that movie back on episode #238 of Based on a True Story.

On July 5th, 1810, Phineas Taylor Barnum was born in Bethel, Connecticut. He’s best known by his initials, P.T. Barnum, and as the man who founded the Barnum & Bailey Circus with James Anthony Bailey. Barnum was played by Hugh Jackman in the 2017 movie The Greatest Showman and we covered the true story behind that back on episode #123.

Oh, and as a fun little side note, even though Bailey from Barnum & Bailey never made it into The Greatest Showman movie, the real James Anthony Bailey was also born this week in history, on July 4th, 1847, in Detroit Michigan.

On July 6th, 1747, John Paul Jones was born in Scotland. Even though he wasn’t born in America, he emigrated to America and became probably the most well-known naval commander for the United States in the American Revolutionary War. John Paul Jones became famous throughout history for the quote, “I have not yet begun to fight!” when he was asked about surrendering. Although, there’s plenty of debate about whether or not he really said that exact line. But, he was played by Robert Stack in a 1959 biographical film simply called John Paul Jones. And yes, that Robert Stack—the same guy who hosted the popular TV show Unsolved Mysteries.

On July 7th, 1906, Leroy Robert Paige was born in Mobile, Alabama. He’s best known by his nickname, “Satchel.” Satchel Paige was a Hall of Fame baseball player whose career spanned 50 years. He debuted in Major League Baseball with the Cleveland Indians in 1948 at the age of 42. To this day, that is the oldest debut for any player in Major League Baseball. He played in the Majors until he was 59, another record that stands to this day. His story was told in the biopic from 1981 called Don’t Look Back: The Story of Leroy ‘Satchel’ Paige with Louis Gossett Jr. playing the lead role of Satchel Paige.

Onto our segment about ‘based on a true story’ movies, since we’re doing a supersize episode this week, I’ve got a couple movies: One that was released in the past, and one that is being released this week!

Let’s start by going back to 15 years ago this week when Public Enemies was released on July 1^st, 2009.

Directed by Michael Mann, Public Enemies stars Johnny Depp and Christian Bale. The storyline revolves around Depp’s character, John Dillinger, who really was a notorious bank robber in the 1930s who many have compared to a Robin Hood-type character. On the other side, though, is Melvin Purvis, an FBI agent played by Christian Bale who is leading the hunt to track down Dillinger.

According to the movie, the FBI is relatively new, so a lot of the storyline around the hunt for Dillinger shows things we might consider normal today, but at the time were state-of-the-art techniques such as fingerprinting and tapping telephone lines.

The movie was right about that, although as you might expect there’s more to the true story.

Let’s start with Dillinger’s reputation as a bank robber in the 1930s.

To be more specific, the Dillinger’s crime spree was less than a year between September 1933 and July 1934. In that time, they killed 10 people, wounded seven others, organized three jail breaks, and robbed at least a dozen different banks in that time. Some have thought perhaps as many as 24 banks, but we know of 12 for sure. And it’s said that Dillinger got away with about $11 million that he hid…and maybe it’s still out there waiting for a treasure hunter to find it. Check out the TV show Expedition Unknown, season 9, episode 1 for more about the search for Dillinger’s treasure.

For today’s movie, though, Public Enemies was correct to have an FBI agent named Melvin Purvis in charge of taking down John Dillinger and his gang. Purvis had been a field agent at FBI offices in Birmingham, Oklahoma City, and Cincinnati, before being assigned to the Chicago office and tasked with leading the takedown of Dillinger.

Although the movie mostly shows Purvis taking the lead, another FBI agent named Samuel Cowley was also assigned to leading the takedown of Dillinger. In the movie, Cowley is played by Richard Short and has a smaller role than he did in the true story.

According to the FBI’s official documentation on the case, the way it worked was Agent Cowley was sent from Washington by J. Edgar Hoover himself to head up the investigation against Dillinger. He was sent to where Dillinger’s crimes were being committed, around the Chicago area. Agent Purvis was in charge of the Chicago office, so that’s how Cowley and Purvis started working together to take down Dillinger.

Oh, and while some have romanticized Dillinger as a form of Robin Hood-type character, in the true story that’s simply not the case. In the movie we’re talking about today, Dillinger never gave of the money he stole away…and that is true.

I’ll include a link in the show notes to a list of 10 myths about Dillinger on the FBI’s website, and #10 directly addresses the idea of Dillinger being a Robin Hood-type character.

Here’s what they had to say:

Dillinger certainly had charm and charisma, but he was no champion of the poor or harmless thief—he was a hardened and vicious criminal. Dillinger stormed police stations in search of weapons and bulletproof vests. He robbed banks and stole cars. He shot at police officers (and may have killed one) and regularly used innocent bystanders as human shields to escape the law. Worse yet, he stood by as his ruthless gang members shot and killed people, including law enforcement officials. And what of his ill-gotten gains? They were used to line his own pockets and those of his partners in crime, not those of impoverished Americans in the midst of the Great Depression.

Speaking of being a bank robber, if we go back to the movie, we see Dillinger along with a couple other gangsters named Tommy Carroll and “Baby Face” Nelson rob a bank in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. When they plan the robbery, they anticipate coming away with $800,000.

If we’re to believe the movie’s version of history, during the robbery, both Dillinger and Carroll are shot. Carroll is left behind and arrested while Dillinger manages to escape, but quickly finds out they only got about $46,000—not nearly what they were expected.

And that really did happen, although I found some conflicting sources on whether or not Dillinger’s gang expected to get away with $800,000.

But there’s a lot of details we don’t see in the movie, too, here’s what we do know about that particular bank robbery.

On the corner of Ninth and Main in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, sat the Security National Bank. At about 10:00 AM on the morning of Tuesday, March 6^th, 1934, a green Packard car pulled up to the bank. There were six men in the car.

When they got to the bank, four of the men got out and went inside. Two others stayed with the car. Inside the bank, one of the men issued an order saying, “This is a holdup; lie down.” The 30 or so people in the bank did as they were told, although someone managed to hit the alarm first. In 1934, Sioux Falls had about 26,000 residents, so it didn’t take long for word to spread of a bank robbery in progress.

As a crowd gathered outside, the two guys with the car periodically shot their Thompson machine guns into the air to keep the crowd away. Of course, it no doubt also drew attention for those who hadn’t yet heard about the robbery. One of those people happened to be an off-duty cop by the name of Keith Hale. When he came to investigate the sound of gunshots, one of the robbers inside saw him and opened fire through the front window, injuring Hale.

The robbers exited the bank, forcing everyone from inside the bank outside with them to help give them cover as they got into the car. Then, to protect themselves from the police shooting at them, the robbers forced five bank employees to ride along with them on the car’s running boards as they made their escape. They released the hostages before leaving town.

While this wasn’t the only bank robbery for the Dillinger gang, it was one that really drew the attention of law enforcement because Dillinger himself had escaped from jail just three days beforehand—on March 3rd—so it was a busy week for Dillinger that really pressed on law enforcement to bring him in.

Back in the movie’s timeline, the storyline comes to an end as Dillinger is shot by Purvis and other FBI agents in an ambush, they set up for him at a brothel. One of the agents named Charles Winstead manages to hear Dillinger’s last words. Winstead is played by Stephen Lang in the movie. He goes to visit Dillinger’s love interest in the movie, Marion Cotillard’s character, a woman named Billie Frechette. She’s in prison when Dillinger is shot, and she’s moved to tears when Winstead tells her Dillinger’s last words were: “Tell Billie for me, ‘Bye, bye, Blackbird.’”

Were those really John Dillinger’s final words? To be honest, we don’t know.

Officially, no, Dillinger had no last words as far as any official reports go. That doesn’t mean there aren’t plenty of theories around what his final words might’ve been.

What is true, though, is the character of Billie Frechette being Dillinger’s girlfriend. She was arrested by the FBI in April of 1934 when she visited a friend in Chicago. She was charged with harboring a fugitive.

So, it is true that she was locked up near the end of the story.

The hunt for Dillinger continued, though, and it was a lot like the movie shows, an ambush at the end. In the movie, the woman who helps law enforcement is named Anna Sage. She’s played by Branka Katic in the movie. In the true story, Anna Sage’s real name was Ana Cumpanas—although she called herself Anna Sage, probably because it’s easier to pronounce for Americans like me.

The real Ana came from Romania and was in the process of being deported thanks in no small part to her job at the brothel. She met with Agents Cowley and Purvis, who promised to put in a good word for her with the government agency in charge of the deportation—the Department of Labor at that time.

So, she agreed to help. She told the agents one of her friends, a woman named Polly Hamilton, was going to see a movie with Dillinger the next evening. The next day, she confirmed the plans with agents and the ambush was a “go” for that evening: Sunday, July 22^nd, 1934.

At about 8:30 PM, Anna Sage, Polly Hamilton, and John Dillinger showed up at the Biograph Theater on Lincoln Avenue in Chicago. After the movie, which was a Clark Gable film called “Manhattan Melodrama,” Dillinger and the two women emerged from the theater. Here is the official FBI explanation of what happened next:

At 10:30 p.m., Dillinger, with his two female companions on either side, walked out of the theater and turned to his left. As they walked past the doorway in which Purvis was standing, Purvis lit a cigar as a signal for the other men to close in.

Dillinger quickly realized what was happening and acted by instinct. He grabbed a pistol from his right trouser pocket as he ran toward the alley.

Five shots were fired from the guns of three FBI agents. Three of the shots hit Dillinger, and he fell face down on the pavement.

At 10:50 p.m. on July 22, 1934, John Dillinger was pronounced dead in a little room in the Alexian Brothers Hospital.

The agents who fired at Dillinger were Charles B. Winstead, Clarence O. Hurt, and Herman E. Hollis. Each man was commended by J. Edgar Hoover for fearlessness and courageous action. None of them ever said who actually killed Dillinger.

If you want to watch the movie released this week in history, you’ll find a link in the show notes for where to find 2009’s Public Enemies on streaming services.

Oh! And that reminds me, as a quick bit of trivia for you, the FBI labeled John Dillinger as “Public Enemy #1” in 1934, so a lot of people think that means Dillinger was #1 on the FBI’s Ten Most Wanted list, but that’s not true…John Dillinger was never on the FBI’s Ten Most Wanted because that list didn’t even exist until 1950. Although I guess if we’re being technical, the FBI itself didn’t exist in 1934…that name came about in 1935, so during the time of John Dillinger it was simply the Bureau of Investigation or BOI.

With that said, though, if the FBI’s Ten Most Wanted existed back in when Dillinger was alive, he probably would’ve been on it.

So, that’s Public Enemies.

Now, let’s fast forward to this week, because there’s another “based on a true story” movie coming out. It’s called Boneyard, and it’s directed by Asif Akbar, starring Mel Gibson and Curtis Jackson—better known as 50 Cent. If you haven’t heard of it, that’s not too surprising, it looks to be a low budget film and according to my research, it looks like it’ll be releasing in select theaters and straight to video on demand on July 2^nd.

But as it is a new movie, I haven’t seen it yet—and I’m guessing you haven’t seen it yet. So, let’s learn a little more about the true story so you can be the one who knows how much of the movie really happened if you see it this week.

The one-sentence synopsis of Boneyard they have listed on IMDb says it is, “Inspired by the true events of a serial killer that may still be out there today.”

The movie is a true crime story that starts when they discover the remains of 11 women and girls in the New Mexico desert. Enter Mel Gibson’s character, an FBI agent named Agent Petrovick, and 50 Cent’s character, the Chief of Police in Albuquerque, New Mexico, who team up to try and identify the killer. Before long, they start to realize it’s likely the work of a single person: A serial killer.

So, what’s the true story?

The movie is based on what’s become known as the West Mesa Murders. And the movie’s IMDb synopsis is correct to say the serial killer might still be out there—as of this recording, the West Mesa Murders are still unsolved.

West Mesa is the name of the mesa—that’s the raised landmass to the west of Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Well, that’s where the true story starts back on February 2^nd, 2009, when a woman named Christine Ross was taking her dog for a walk. On that walk, her dog found a bone. As you might imagine, she was surprised by that. She thought maybe it was a human bone, but maybe not…she wasn’t sure. So, she took a photo of it and sent it to her sister, an RN, who confirmed it was a human bone.

The police were called, and in the weeks that followed, they unearthed bones from 11 women and girls, one of whom was pregnant. Their ages ranged from 15 to 32 years old. They were able to determine the identity of the women and found most of them were sex workers or runaways.

Sadly, when they disappeared, they weren’t reported missing.

Piecing together information from interviewing hundreds of people who knew or at least knew of the victims, police were able to piece together a rough timeline between 2001 and 2005 as when the murders took place. The bodies were likely dumped in the West Mesa area because it was a remote area.

And it took years for them to be found, putting law enforcement way behind on unraveling the case. But that doesn’t mean there were no suspects. In fact, there were a number of suspects over the years. From pimps who knew some of the murdered women, to men with a history of violence against women, but there are probably two top suspects…and those two start with a guy named Lorenzo Montoya. He had a history of violence against sex workers, as well as his girlfriend. Some people also pointed out that he lived just a few miles from where the bodies were found; and his co-workers even said Montoya claimed to have killed women and buried them on the West Mesa.

Remember when I mentioned the police determined the timeline was between 2001 and 2005? Well, some have suggested perhaps they stopped because Lorenzo Montoya was killed in 2006. He didn’t die of natural causes, either. He had just finished strangling a sex worker to death when her boyfriend showed up and shot and killed Montoya.

Or maybe the guy who shot Montoya was her pimp. Or maybe he was both; the sources I found vary on his relation to her.

Would she have ended up on the West Mesa? We might not ever know.

The other top suspect came more recently, about ten years ago, in 2014, when another suspect named Joseph Blea came to the police’s attention…and before I go further, let me give a trigger warning for rape and sexual assault, skip ahead 30 seconds if you want to skip past that.

Blea was a rapist who targeted teenage girls in the 1980s and ‘90s, known for stealing their underwear. He wasn’t a suspect, though, until 2010 when a rape test kit was re-tested, DNA pointed to Blea, and although he lived with his wife and daughter, the police found underwear and jewelry not belonging to either of them in the house. The police thought perhaps they were trinkets from victims.

And then while Blea was in prison, it’s alleged that he admitted a connection to the West Mesa murder victims, saying he’d hired them for sex. Finally, police suspected Blea of killing another sex worker in 2015. When they had enough evidence against him, Blea was arrested and in June of 2015 he was sentenced in the ‘80s and ‘90s rape cases and sentenced to 36 years. Assuming Blea is still alive in 2051 when that sentence ends, he’ll be 94 years old.

Neither Blea nor Montoya were charged with anything related to the West Mesa Murders. As of this recording, officially, they’re still unsolved.

But, if you want to watch the movie version of this true crime investigation, hop in the show notes for a link to where you can find Boneyard!

And if you do give it a watch, chances are you’ll watch it before me, so let me know what you think of it and maybe give me your own historical letter grade for how well it told the true story!

May 6, 1937. Lakehurst, New Jersey.

Beneath a clock that reads 5:05 is a sign indicating the wind is blowing southwest at 16 knots. There’s another spot beneath the wind speed to indicate gusts, but that isn’t showing any reading as two men appear to be working on the sign.

We seem to be at some sort of an aircraft hanger. Outside the hanger, the ground is covered with people who look up to see a strange shape emerging from a big, white cloud in the blue sky.

We can hear someone below yell, “Look up there! Here she comes!”

The crowd watches eagerly as the full shape makes its way through the cloud. It’s an oval-shaped craft. A uniformed man notices the gusts aren’t showing on the sign and asks what’s happened there—that wind has to be at least 25 knots. The other officer says they can’t get the sign fixed. Frustrated, the commanding officer picks up a phone and orders them to flash red.

A red light flashes on the sign, something picked up by the men inside the craft. They’re all wearing uniforms, too, although they’re different uniforms than the ones worn by the men below.

The man who seems to be in charge there says they’ll delay the landing.

From below we can see a shot of the hanger in the foreground with an American flag inside. Above the hanger is the craft, a dirigible balloon, bearing a Nazi swastika on its tail fins. It floats slowly back into the clouds.

At this point in the movie, we’ll jump ahead a little bit and pick up at about an hour and 44 minutes when the command is sent from the ground to flash green. The ground crew is ready for landing. The clock shows the time as 7:09.

Inside the dirigible, the order is given to go to landing stations. There’s a flurry of activity as men make their way to what we can assume are their landing stations. That is, it seems, except for one man. George C. Scott’s character, Colonel Franz Ritter, asks some of the men if they’ve seen Boerth—referring to William Atherton’s character, Karl Boerth. They reply they haven’t seen him, but he should be there!

Ritter goes on to try and find Boerth. Some other men tell Ritter that Boerth’s landing station is in the nose. Ritter looks at his watch as the second-hand passes from 7:13 to 7:14.

The sound of the dirigible’s engine can be heard as it lines up with a massive tower, and the men below are ready to connect with the balloon and anchor it to the ground.

Back inside, Ritter continues his search for Boerth. He looks at his watch again. It’s 7:16 now.

Someone tells the men lined up in their landing stations to standby for starboard line drop. We see two lines drop from the front of the balloon to the ground. On the ground, men grab the lines and attach them to a machine that starts to pull the line tight.

The camera cuts to another man on the ground, who is speaking into a microphone and giving a play-by-play of what’s happening. Through this, we find out she’s hovering just short of the mast as she waits for her nose cone to be connected up.

Back inside the dirigible, Ritter continues his search for what seems to be the missing Boerth. He runs along a plank inside the airship, looking behind a canvas flap. Not there. Is he over here? Nope, not there either.

Then, he sees him. Boerth is lying on the ground and a man is standing over him. The man points the knife in his hand at Ritter, commanding him to leave. Ritter doesn’t leave, though, and after a brief fistfight, Ritter gets the best of the man with the knife—who gets knocked out.

Ritter turns to Boerth. He says, “It’s 7:20! Where’s the bomb?”

Boerth seems delirious with blood on his face. Ritter says there are less than ten minutes left. Boerth mutters the words repair patch four, and Ritter immediately runs away to navigate the maze inside the balloon.

When he gets to the location, he cuts the canvas away carefully to reveal a small device in what looks to be a knife’s handle. This must be the bomb. Looking at the watch attached to it, we can see the time. It’s 7:23.

Ritter follows the wires on the device, carefully fiddling with a switch inside. His finger moves to the crown of the watch—that’s the name for the knob that adjusts the time. Below, the man who he knocked out calls Ritter’s name. Ritter looks down for a moment, then continues to slowly pull the crown to stop the watch from ticking.

An explosion.

The movie switches to black and white now as it shows the officers commanding the ship in the navigating room of the gondola feeling the blast.

From below, we see a huge ball of flame at the back of the balloon. The man doing the play-by-play on the ground starts yelling hysterically, “It burst into flame! It burst into flame!”

The fire quickly spreads, engulfing the entire airship. Panic ensues among the passengers as the camera cuts to a clock inside telling us the time: 7:25.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie The Hindenburg

That sequence comes from the 1972 film called The Hindenburg, and it’s showing us an event that happened this week in history when, on May 6^th, 1937, the German dirigible airship the movie is named after exploded while it was landing at Lakehurst, New Jersey.

Three days earlier, on May 3^rd, the Hindenburg left Frankfurt, Germany, to cross the Atlantic in something that wasn’t too common at the time. After all, most aircraft of the time couldn’t sustain a trip across the ocean and a ship’s time across the ocean was much more than a few days. In fact, it was the Hindenburg that made commercial air service across the Atlantic a somewhat normal thing as it carried over a thousand passengers across the ocean in 1936—10 round-trips between Germany and the United States and seven trips between Germany and Brazil.

The trip in May was its second of 1937, and for this trip it was only about half full with 36 of a maximum 70 passengers on board. Then there were 61 crew for a total of 97 people on board.

So, the movie was correct to show passengers on board in what would’ve been a rather luxurious setting—and probably with some room to spare, considering it wasn’t a full flight.

The main characters that I mentioned were based on real people, although a lot about them was changed so many have considered it a stretch to say it’s based on the real people at all.

For example, the character we see George C. Scott playing in the movie, Colonel Franz Ritter, was not a real person. Although he was probably based on someone who was real, and he was a Colonel in the German Luftwaffe by the name of Fritz Erdmann. And it is true that Erdmann was aboard Hindenburg, but he wasn’t a part of the security team on Hindenburg like we see Ritter being in the film.

William Atherton’s character, Karl Boerth, is the one that Ritter is trying to find in the scene I just described. Boerth was based on a real person named Erich Spehl, who was a rigger on Hindenburg. And it is true that there were some theories that Spehl was a saboteur who was part of a plot to destroy Hindenburg. Why? Well, because Hindenburg was the pride and joy of the Nazi Party in Germany in 1937. Remember that was before the start of World War II so the world wasn’t entirely aware of the atrocities the Nazis would stand for yet—but that doesn’t mean there weren’t plenty of Germans who were opposed to the Nazis taking over their country.

That’s a discussion for another day. Although the movie shows Colonel Ritter checking his watch over and over because of the bomb on board, so the point of mentioning all this about the idea of an anti-Nazi conspiracy to destroy the dirigible bearing the swastika is simply to say the idea of the Hindenburg disaster being an act of sabotage is real, but it’s never been proven.

The idea of sabotage started a 1962 book by a historian named A.A. Hoehling whose research led him to believe Spehl planted a bomb on board. There has been no evidence to prove it to be true, and even though he researched his theory, Hoehling has admitted it’s circumstantial.

The movie, which was released in 1975, took its own storyline from a book that was released in 1972 by an author named Michael Mooney—he also followed the idea that Spehl planted a bomb on board. That’s something Spehl’s fiancée was asked about and denied as “absolute madness.”

As for Spehl himself, well, he was one of the victims of the crash. So, perhaps we’ll never know the full truth about that theory.

What we do know, though, is that the Hindenburg had just crossed thousands of miles—over 6,000 kilometers—from Germany to the United States in a rather uneventful trip. It was scheduled to land at the Lakehurst Naval Air Station in New Jersey using what was known as a flying moor. That’s what we see in the movie where the airship drops its cables to be tied down from crews on the ground.

Think of it kind of like a ship’s anchor in the ocean—except this time it’s an anchor of sorts being tied down by people on the ground. While it was a common tactic for American airships, it wasn’t done in Germany so the only times the Hindenburg crew had performed this was the handful of times they traveled to the United States.

At about 7:00 PM, Hindenburg made its final approach for landing. But, similar to what we see in the movie, the crew on the ground wasn’t ready yet. Captain Pruss, who is in the movie—he’s played by Charles Durning—was in command of Hindenburg and as the wind shifted he ordered the airship to turn. Then, he ordered over a series of water drops. That’s something we see in the movie, and the purpose of it was to relieve weight to steady the ship as it approached the mooring mast.

At 7:21 PM, Hindenburg was 295 feet above the ground—that’s about 90 meters. At this point, lines were dropped so the ground crew could grab the mooring lines. Four minutes later, at 7:25 PM, all hell broke loose.

Some witnesses mentioned seeing some fabric fluttering. Maybe a gas leak? Some mentioned seeing some flames. Others claimed the fire started on the port side. Still others said it started near the top fin. Or maybe it started near the lower side first. It all happened so fast, it’s hard to rely too heavily on people’s recollections of what happened after the fact.

You’ve probably seen the footage—if not, I’ll include a link to it in the show notes for this episode—but in studying that there have been varying suggestions of how long it took. The challenge is that none of the footage from that day started at the first moment of the flames. So, we have to partially rely on witness testimony. Although there have been some scientific analysis done to run the numbers on what should happen. Those numbers for how long it took for the Hindenburg to be engulfed in flames range anywhere from 16 seconds to 37 seconds.

That’s from the moment of the first flame appeared to the 803-foot, 10-inch airship crashing to the ground. It happened fast. Very fast.

That’s 245 meters long, by the way.

Speaking of the footage, perhaps one of the reasons why the Hindenburg disaster has lived so long in the history books was not only because of how terrible it was—but because the disaster was captured on film.

And that guy we see in the movie who is doing the play-by-play?

There really was someone doing that. His name was Herbert Morrison, and his radio broadcast of the disaster with the now-famous line “Oh, the humanity” elevated the public’s awareness of what happened.

Here is Herbert Morrison’s audio that he recorded while the Hindenburg disaster unfolded in front of him:

It’s starting to rain again; it’s—the rain has slacked up a little bit. The back motors of the ship are just holding it just, just enough to keep it from — It burst into flames!

Get this, Charlie! Get this, Charlie! It’s fire—and it’s crashing! It’s crashing! It’s terrible! Oh, my, get out of the way, please! It’s burning and bursting into flames, and the—and it’s falling on the mooring-mast and all the folks agree that this is terrible, this is one of the worst catastrophes in the world. [Indecipherable word(s)] It’s–it’s–it’s the flames, [indecipherable, possibly the word “climbing”] oh, four- or five-hundred feet into the sky and it … it’s a terrific crash, ladies and gentlemen. It’s smoke, and it’s flames now … and the frame is crashing to the ground, not quite to the mooring-mast. Oh, the humanity and all the passengers screaming around here. I told you, I can’t even talk to people whose friends are on there. Ah! It’s–it’s–it’s–it’s … o–ohhh! I–I can’t talk, ladies and gentlemen. Honest, it’s just laying there, a mass of smoking wreckage. Ah! And everybody can hardly breathe and talk, and the screaming. Lady, I–I’m sorry. Honest: I–I can hardly breathe.

I–I’m going to step inside where I cannot see it. Charlie, that’s terrible. Ah, ah—I can’t. I, listen, folks, I–I’m gonna have to stop for a minute because I’ve lost my voice. This is the worst thing I’ve ever witnessed.

You can hear the emotion in his voice.

36 people were killed. 35 were on the Hindenburg and one ground crew member.

And while dirigibles for commercial travel didn’t go away immediately, the public’s trust in them started to wane. I’m sure seeing the footage of the disaster didn’t help. And then, of course, there was the start of World War II. Throughout the war, the technology for airplanes grew to where they could fly farther and faster than they ever could before.

Oh, and the movie’s scene we just heard doesn’t talk about this, but one of the reasons Hindenburg went up in flames so fast was because it was filled with hydrogen—which is extremely flammable. That acted like a starter because even though it all burned up in about 90 seconds, it was enough to bring the whole burning wreck down and cause the deaths while also igniting the engine’s diesel fuel which continued to burn for hours.

Why did they use such a flammable gas inside Hindenburg? It’s not because it was the only option. In fact, Hindenburg had been designed to use helium—a gas that is not flammable or explosive. But, the United States had export restrictions against Nazi Germany so they had to use hydrogen instead.

If you want to watch the event that happened this week in history on screen, check out the 1975 movie called The Hindenburg. The landing sequence leading up to the explosion starts at around an hour and 37 minutes.

And if you want to learn more about the true story, we did a deep dive into that movie over on episode #91 of Based on a True Story.

May 8, 1945. Berchtesgaden, Germany.

An American soldier flips through a photo album filled with carefully mounted black and white photos. As the camera shows the pictures inside, it’s not super close to the album yet but we can see there are two men standing side-by-side posing for the camera. The photo next to that is of a huge crowd of people lined along a street. On the street are more people in a formation; it looks like a military parade of some sort, and massive mountains provides an impressive backdrop.

The soldier turns to the next page and we can see more photos of people. There seems to be a Nazi swastika in almost every photo. In this photograph, there are people sitting around a dinner table. In the middle is Hitler. Could this photo album belong to Hitler?

Outside, we can hear the voices of some other soldiers as the camera cuts to them.

They’re listing off names of Nazi leaders who sound similar: Hitler, Himmler, Goering, Goebbels.

A couple other soldiers make their way outside to join the three who are sitting down on the balcony. It looks like a luxurious place, with huge stone arches and on the other side we can see massive, snowcapped mountains in the background that look similar to those in the photo album. It’s the kind of natural view that no photograph can do it justice.

One of the two soldiers who just walked up is Damien Lewis’ character, Richard Winters. A soldier who was already there grabs a bottle of wine and shares it with Winters, offering him a drink. It’s obvious the men are relaxing and enjoying the beautiful scenery.

But Winters, who is the senior officer of the group, has some news to share with the other men. He unfolds a piece of paper and reads it to them:

“Effective immediately. All troops stand fast on present positions.”

He pauses and looks up at the three soldiers who are relaxing, each one with their own bottle of wine. One of them, Ron Livingston’s character, Lewis Nixon, is laying back on a chair. He puts his hands behind his head in a very relaxed manner and smiles, “Standing fast.”

A chuckle bursts out. Winters laughs, too.

Then, he asks if the men want to hear the rest of the news. “Ready for it?”

They continue laughing and nod their heads.

Winters simply says, “German army’s surrendered.”

Everyone looks up at him, including Nixon, who pulls his hands out from behind his head. Winters points at Nixon, “I’ve got a present for you.”

In the next scene, we see Winters driving an Army Jeep with Nixon in the passenger seat. They’re going through a forested area, pulling up to an elegant-looking house that has half of it blown apart. We can see the same, beautiful snowy mountains in the background, providing a stark contrast to the green trees in the foreground.

Nixon asks what the place is, to which Winters replies it’s Hermann Goering’s house. They hop out and go inside. A couple other American soldiers were there at the house and Winters leads the four men down some stairs into a massive wine cellar. Nixon is speechless as he looks around.

Winters has some voiceover explaining the contents, saying 10,000 bottles of the world’s finest liquor, wine and champagne helped “Easy Company” mark the day the war in Europe came to an end. Then, in the scene, Winters says it to the other three: “Happy VE Day.”

One of the men turns to Nixon and asks, “VE Day?”

Nixon explains, “Victory in Europe.”

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the series Band of Brothers

That sequence comes from Band of Brothers, the 2001 HBO miniseries, and it’s depicting an event that happened this week in history: The end of war in Europe during World War II, commonly known as VE Day, on May 8^th, 1945.

At least, it’s depicting one version of how American soldiers learned of the news. It’s obviously not showing us what happened to trigger VE Day.

That would be the unconditional surrender of the German Army, which actually took place the day before on May 7^th. But, let’s back up a little more to get some historical context for the end of the war and the events that led up to the surrender.

On Sunday, June 22^nd, 1941, the Germans launched what would end up being the largest military operation in human history when they invaded the Soviet Union. It was a move that came as a complete surprise to the Soviets because prior to the attack, the two nations had signed a non-aggression pact.

This was the start of an Eastern Front of fighting for Germany.

For the next three years, the Soviets had managed to slow down, stop, and push the Germans back. Near the end of 1943 and throughout 1944, the Soviets launched offensives of their own along the Eastern Front. They drove the Germans back from Estonia and Latvia to the north all the way through Ukraine, Bulgaria and Hungary.

Meanwhile, on the western side of Europe, the Allies landed in Normandy on D-Day: June 6^th, 1944. What followed was a lot of hard fighting for months as the Allies pushed their way through France, Belgium, Holland and into the Germany.

So, essentially, Germany was being pushed back on both sides.

On March 22^nd, 1945, the Allies crossed into Germany on the Western Front. A little over a week later, on April 2^nd, 1945, the Soviets drove the Germans back through Austria on the Eastern Front. Both sides continued to push, on April 16^th, the Soviets made their way to Berlin.

That same day, the Americans started attacking the German city of Nuremberg. They captured it four days later, on April 20^th. Meanwhile, the British started attacking another major German city, Hamburg, on April 18^th.

With Soviet explosions getting closer, Adolf Hitler knew the end was near. He committed suicide in his Berlin bunker on April 30^th, 1945.

This sparked a change in leadership as well as suicides by other Nazis such as Joseph Goebbels on May 1^st. It also was the start of surrenders by German generals and armies. On May 2^nd, the Germans in Berlin surrendered to the Soviets. That same day, some other German armies surrendered to the Allies. German forces in Denmark, Netherlands, Bavaria and more surrendered in the following days.

Then, at 2:41 AM on the morning of May 7^th, 1945, General Alfred Jodl officially signed an unconditional surrender for all German forces to the Allies and they were to cease active operations the following day. On that same day, Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel also signed another document of unconditional surrender.

At 3 PM on May 8^th, Winston Churchill had a radio broadcast to announce the end of the war in Europe. Here is that speech:

Yesterday morning at 2.41 a.m. at General Eisenhower’s headquarters, General Jodl, the representative of the German High Command and of Grand Admiral Dönitz, the designated head of the German state, signed the Act of Unconditional Surrender of all German land, sea, and air forces in Europe to the Allied Expeditionary Force and simultaneously to the Soviet High Command.

General Bedel Smith, Chief of Staff of the United States Army, and General Francois Sevez signed the document on behalf of the Supreme Commander of the Allied Expeditionary Force, and General Suslo Parov signed on behalf of the Russian High Command.

Today this agreement will be ratified and confirmed at Berlin, where Air Chief Marshal Tedda, Deputy Supreme Commander of the Allied Expeditionary Force, and General Delac de Tassigny will sign on behalf of General Eisenhower.

General Zhukov will sign on behalf of the Soviet High Command.

The German representatives will be Field Marshal Keitel, Chief of the High Command, and the Commanders-in-Chief of the German Army, Navy, and Air Forces.

Hostilities will end officially at one minute after midnight tonight, Tuesday the 8th of May.

But in the interest of saving lives, the ceasefire began yesterday to be sounded all along the front, and our dear Channel Islands are also to be freed today.

The Germans are still in places resisting the Russian troops, but should they continue to do so after midnight, they will of course deprive themselves of the protection of the laws of war and will be attacked from all quarters by the Allied troops.

It is not surprising that on such long fronts, and in the existing disorder of the enemy, the commands of the German High Command should not in every case have been obeyed immediately.

This does not, in our opinion, with the best military advice at our disposal, constitute any reason for withholding from the nation the facts communicated to us by General Eisenhower of the unconditional surrender already signed at Reims, nor should it prevent us from celebrating today and tomorrow, Wednesday, as Victory in Europe Day.

Today perhaps we shall think mostly of ourselves.

Tomorrow we shall pay a particular tribute to our heroic Russian comrades, whose prowess in the field has been one of the grand contributions to the general victory.

The German war is therefore at an end.

After years of intense preparation, Germany hurled herself on Poland at the beginning of September 1939.

And in pursuance of our guarantee to Poland, and in common with the French Republic, Great Britain, the British Empire, and Commonwealth of Nations declared war upon this foul aggression.

After gallant France had been struck down, we from this island and from our united empire maintained the struggle single-handed for a whole year, until we were joined by the military might of Soviet Russia, and later by the overwhelming power and resources of the United States of America.

Finally, almost the whole world was combined against the evildoers who are now prostrate before us.

Our gratitude to all our splendid allies goes forth from all our hearts in this island and throughout the British Empire.

We may allow ourselves a brief period of rejoicing, but let us not forget for a moment the toils and efforts that lie ahead.

Japan, with all her treachery and greed, remains unsubdued.

The injuries she has inflicted upon Great Britain, the United States, and other countries, and her detestable cruelties call for justice and retribution.

We must now devote all our strength and resources to the completion of our tasks, both at home and abroad.

Advance Britannia!

Long live the cause of freedom!

God save the King!

Back to Band of Brothers, though, the series is correct to show that the 101^st Airborne was at the Bavarian home of Hitler in May of 1945.

If you want to see their experiences on the screen, you can find that starting at about 13 minutes into the final episode of the miniseries.

And we did a huge deep dive into the historical accuracy of the entire series which you can find over at basedonatruestorypodcast.com/bandofbrothers.

Part 3 of that miniseries is where we cover the events on and around VE Day.

May 11, 1960. Argentina.

The sun is almost gone now as darkness fills the sky. There’s just enough light left in the day to show a simple building silhouetted against the sky. The building is completely dark, though, because there’s no lights outside. The only artificial light in the shot is the yellow glow of lights coming from inside the house, but it’s not powerful enough to spill into the outdoors.

The camera pans over to show a couple other artificial lights. We don’t have to see the vehicle to know these are car headlights. The car slowly makes its way down the road before stopping underneath a dim streetlight. Inside the car, we can see a man and a woman.

Then, the camera cuts to another car. This one has people inside, but at the front of the car a man is raising the hood and propping it up. Maybe something is wrong with their car. We can see better inside the car now, and there are what looks like three people inside the car, one in the passenger seat and two in the backseat.

The fourth man who raised the hood is tinkering with the engine.

Another man on a bike rides by. In Spanish, he asks if they need help. The man working on the engine politely declines the offer for aid.

There’s no light left in the sky anymore as the camera cuts to a scene just ahead of a bus pulling up to a bus stop. There are a few scattered streetlights, but overall the scene is still very dark and hard to see as the bus stops near a sign and one of the streetlights.

At the same time, one of the men gets out of the car and starts walking toward the bus. He pauses. The bus has continued driving now, and it doesn’t look like anyone got out when it stopped.

The four men are starting to get panicked. Does he know? He must know. But his wife and kids are still home, he wouldn’t leave without them would he? He’s done it before—we should leave. Now!

They all look at each other, clearly trying to figure out what to do. From a distance, the man and woman in another car look on. They, too, seem to be wondering why no one got off the bus, although there’s absolutely no dialogue from them.

Just then, another bus rumbles down the same street the other one just left. Like the bus before it, this one stops at the same place, its brakes screeching slightly as it does. From the dim light inside the bus, we can see some movement. The bus pauses for a moment, then continues on. After it passes, we can see a solo man standing there. He’s reaching for something in his pocket. A flashlight. Makes sense, it’s still very dark.

In fact, we can’t see his face at all, it’s way too dark for that, but we can see the outline of him thanks to a couple of the dim streetlights near the bus stop.

The men in the car notice this. The camera zooms in on one of them who makes a positive identification, “Him.”

We can see the flashlight bouncing slowly as the man carries it while he walks. The men in and around the car contemplate what just happened. Why was there a second bus? And the man on the bike? Something feels off.

Making a decision, one of the men near the car with the hood up starts walking toward the flashlight man. With the rest of the men staying in the car, now we have two men walking toward each other. One, the guy who just got off the bus, is carrying a flashlight. The other is not.

They pass each other silently, then a moment afterward the man from the car turns around to say something. That makes the flashlight man turn around, but it’s only for a moment as flashlight man doesn’t seem to care who the other guy is. But he doesn’t get far. The man from the car jumps into action, putting his gloved hand over flashlight man’s mouth. That muffles his screams.

In the dark shot, his flashlight starts waving around wildly as he’s being abducted. The two men continue to wrestle each other, falling into the ditch by the side of the road. As the struggle continues, flashlight man manages to get a scream out—part of it is muffled, though, as the other man continues to try to keep his hand over his mouth. Another of the men from the car jumps out, rushing to the aid of his colleague.

The camera cuts to inside the building we saw at the beginning of this sequence. Inside is a woman. This must be her home. Even though there’s no dialogue, after the scream outside it’s obvious that maybe she heard something. Right? Maybe. And maybe the guy outside being abducted is her husband. Of course, she doesn’t know that’s happening. But maybe she did hear something, so she starts to investigate.

Back in the ditch, it’s two against one now. The car with the man and woman that we saw at the beginning of this sequence appears, backing up right alongside the spot where the struggle is taking place. The woman gets out, opening the back door as the two men carry the flashlight man and put him in the back.

She gets in alongside the flashlight man, who is still being held by the first guy from the car. He tells her to get the sedative. Then, to flashlight man, the man from the front seat of the car says, “Make a noise and I’ll kill you.”

The car kicks into gear and they drive away, followed shortly by the other car.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie Operation Finale

This comes from the 2018 movie called Operation Finale and it depicts an event that happened this week in history when Israeli spies managed to find and capture Adolf Eichmann—the Nazi war criminal who was one of the twisted minds behind the Holocaust.

With help from a Catholic bishop, Eichmann escaped to Argentina after World War II ended. That’s where he was in 1960, which is why we see people speaking Spanish in the movie.

Of course, no one really knew the path he took from Europe to Argentina at the time.

We only know that now because while other Allies started the post-war process, one of the things the newly formed country of Israel did was to try and find the Nazis behind the Holocaust.

The movie is correct to show the Israeli Mossad agents capturing Eichmann in secret. Although I only described the sequence in the movie from this week in history, for some more context, after thinking perhaps they knew where Eichmann was, they had to make a positive identification first. That happened in March of 1960.

Once they knew where he was, the next step was to decide what to do. Normally, a criminal would be extradited—we hear about this kind of thing happening all the time. But one reason why so many Nazis like Eichmann went to Argentina was that they tended not to extradite Nazis. That’s a big reason why the decision was made to capture him in secret.

So, in April of 1960, Israel sent spies with the task of capturing him and returning him to Israel for trial.

After some more observations to establish what Eichmann’s routine was, they determined the best time to capture him would be after he took his normal bus in the evening. Just like we see in the movie, though, on the night of May 11^th, 1960, he wasn’t on his normal bus. They were about to give up for the day when Eichmann showed up on a bus that came by about 30 minutes or so later.

The movie correctly showed Oscar Isaac’s version of the Mossad agent Peter Malkin as the first to walk up to Eichmann. Malkin asked Eichmann a question, the latter of whom didn’t want to interact with this stranger and continued on. That’s when the struggle ensued.

The agents tackled Eichmann and put him in a waiting car before driving to a nearby safe house they’d set up beforehand.

If you want to watch this week’s event in the movie, check out 2018’s Operation Finale and the actual capture of Adolf Eichmann starts at about an hour and 14 minutes into the movie.

And if you want to learn even more about before and after the capture of the notorious Nazi—including what happened after they brought him back to Israel—we covered the true story behind that movie over on episode #162 of Based on a True Story.

And while that makes our third historical event this week, there’s one more important one to share that was depicted in a movie called Amazing Grace, so we’ll hear that right after the break.

May 12, 1789. London, England.

We can hear his words before we see who is talking.

“It is with a heavy heart,” he begins. The camera pans around into a large chamber where many stately men in suits and wigs befitting the 1700s are either standing or sitting, listening to the man speaking. He continues, “…that I bring to the attention of this House, a trade which degrades men to the level of brutes.”

Now we can see the person talking. It’s Ioan Gruffudd’s character, William Wilberforce.

Wilberforce explains that, “I am speaking of the slave trade.”

All the men in the room start to make noise, seemingly disagreeing with the mention. The commotion continues as Wilberforce recognizes the elephant in the room: Namely that people in the room have interests in the Indies, or investments in plantations, or they’re ship owners. In other words, they’re profiting from the slave trade.

While the movie doesn’t mention this outright, it doesn’t really have to because we can see it visually, but it’s probably no surprise that everyone in the room is white.

The commotion is getting louder as Wilberforce continues his speech, trying to appeal to their humanity. People are talking loudly, banging, calling out…none of it really seems to be saying anything, but the closed captioning in the movie describes this as “clamoring.”

The first thing that came to my mind was trying to talk over a busy restaurant.

Basically, it’s not any single person who is stopping Wilberforce from talking, but collectively it’s the hundreds of people in the room who are all making enough noise that Wilberforce has to raise his voice to be heard. Even then, it doesn’t seem to be working. His voice is being drowned out as he tries to plead his position.

Finally, someone in the room calls out for order.

Lord Tarleton, who is played by Ciarán Hinds in the movie, stands up to speak out. He says he can’t believe his ears. Someone from the other side bounces back, “We can hardly believe your mouth!”

There’s scattered laughter among the men.

Tarleton continues, saying that his young friend, Wilberforce, seems to have a long-term strategy to destroy the nation that spawned him. Everyone in the room seems to agree with Tarleton as Wilberforce sits down.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie Amazing Grace

That sequence comes from the 2006 movie called Amazing Grace and it depicts an event that happened this week in history: William Wilberforce’s first major speech on abolition to the House of Commons. That was this week in history on May 12^th, 1789. Or maybe it was May 13^th, in my research there were both dates given by different sources.

Although the movie doesn’t mention this, the speech we hear comes from accounts of the speech because at that time they didn’t transcribe every speech in the House of Commons. With that said, though, the movie’s version of the speech is pretty accurate—albeit much shorter than the actual speech which lasted for about three hours.

But here is the generally accepted version of how William Wilberforce started his speech:

When I consider the magnitude of the subject which I am to bring before the House, a subject, in which the interests, not of this country, nor of Europe alone, but of the whole world, and of posterity, are involved: and when I think, at the same time, on the weakness of the advocate who has undertaken this great cause, when these reflections press upon my mind, it is impossible for me not to feel both terrified and concerned at my own inadequacy to such a task.

But when I reflect, however, on the encouragement which I have had, through the whole course of a long and laborious examination of this question, and how much candour I have experienced, and how conviction has increased within my own mind, in proportion as I have advanced in my labours; when I reflect, especially, that however averse any gentleman may now be, yet we shall all be of one opinion in the end; when I turn myself to these thoughts, I take courage I determine to forget all my other fears, and I march forward with a firmer step in the full assurance that my cause will bear me out, and that I shall be able to justify upon the clearest principles, every resolution in my hand, the avowed end of which is, the total abolition of the slave trade.

The movie was also correct show that Wilberforce’s speech in 1789 wasn’t necessarily received very well. After all, as the movie also correctly depicts, there were many in the British government who profited greatly from the slave trade. It also wasn’t the last of his speeches against the slave trade. But, it was a moment in history that many consider the beginning of the end for slavery in Britain, something that wasn’t fully abolished until August 28^th, 1833.

If you want to watch the speech as it is depicted in the 2006 movie called Amazing Grace, you’ll find it starting at about 47 minutes and 17 seconds.

And we did a deep dive into the true story behind that film way back on episode #22 of Based on a True Story.

April 17th, 1865. Washington, D.C.

We’re in the middle of a movie montage.

Newspaper headlines are crossing the screen.

One headline is dated Saturday, April 15th and says, “President Lincoln Murdered” and the “Nation in shock.”

Another shows photographs of three men and says there’s a $100,000 reward for the murderer. That paper is dated April 20th, 1865. The next paper is hard to see the date on, but it mentions Stanton orders troops to close down Washington, D.C.

Then, we see soldiers arresting a man hiding in a building. In another shot, they’re arresting someone on a train. Another man is arrested while he’s sleeping. Then, we see them arresting some women and putting them in the back of a barred wagon. The newspaper that floats above this screen tells us the “Surratt Boarding House Raided.”

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie The Conspirator

If you remember from last week’s edition of Based on a True Story, John Wilkes Booth shot President Lincoln at Ford’s Theatre in the Washington, D.C. on the evening of April 14^th, 1865. This is a continuation of that storyline as it’s shown in the 2010 movie The Conspirator, and although it doesn’t focus too much on the dates between the April 15th and April 20th newspaper headlines that we see, it was this week in history on April 17th, 1865, that Mary Surratt was arrested as a conspirator in the assassination of President Abraham Lincoln.

Because we only see a montage of newspapers, we don’t see much of the actual event.

What happened was that Mary’s oldest son, John, was a known associate to many former Confederates during the Civil War who were now suspected in the assassination conspiracy: David Herold, Lewis Powell and John Wilkes Booth, to name a few.

So, on the evening of April 17th, investigators were at Surratt’s home in D.C. to interview her about the assassination. While they were there, Lewis Powell happened to show up, knocking on the door. He was carrying a pick-axe, which seemed rather suspicious.

When asked about it, Powell told the investigators he had been hired by Mary Surratt to dig a gutter. When they asked Mary to confirm this, she said she didn’t know who he was and she certainly didn’t hire him to dig a gutter.

That, coupled with some evidence that included a photo of John Wilkes Booth, was enough for the investigators to arrest Mary Surratt. Some other conspirators were arrested this week in history, too, with Samuel Arnold also being arrested on April 17th, although some others weren’t caught until next week, like John Wilkes Booth and David Herold were found in a barn on April 26th.

But if you want to watch the arrests and subsequent trial of Mary Surratt, the montage starts at about 14 minutes into the 2010 movie called The Conspirator.

And if you want to learn more about the true story, we covered that on episode #175 of Based on a True Story.

April 18th, 1942. Tokyo.

The camera pans up from the water to the aircraft carrier.

On the deck are a bunch of airplanes waiting to take off. But, these aren’t the kind of airplanes you’d expect to see on an aircraft carrier. They’re B-25s: Bombers. Inside the carrier, the radar operator calls out a warning. Japanese patrol boats are only 400 yards away and closing! The captain gives the order to go to general quarters. They have to sink the Japanese before they give away the Americans’ position.

A klaxon alarm goes off as sailors run this way and that on the ship.

One of the men inside the bridge says they were supposed to launch 400 miles away, how far are we now? 624 miles is the reply.

With the new numbers, one of the men starts doing a quick calculation. Then, he looks up at Alec Baldwin’s version of Colonel Jimmy Doolittle. “I don’t know,” he tells Doolittle. He says he just doesn’t know if the planes can carry enough fuel to make it to China.

A moment later, Doolittle makes his decision: Now. We launch now!

In the next shot, we see a flurry of men. Doolittle orders the planes to be stripped of anything unnecessary to make room for fuel. It’s a fine balance of having enough fuel to make up the extra miles, but not so much that the planes will be too heavy to get off the carrier.

More gas is added to each plane as guns are removed to lighten up the planes.

The two pilots the movie focuses on mostly are Ben Affleck’s character, Rafe McCawley and Josh Hartnett’s character, Danny Walker. Then, of course, there’s Colonel Doolittle, who is also flying one of the planes.

One by one, the B-25s start taking off. There were a few close calls, but everyone gets away okay. As the last two take off, we can see in a single shot there are 16 B-25s in the skies now.

The next shot follows the bombers are they fly over land.

Rafe calls back to the other men on the plane, identifying the land as Japan. It’s time to man your guns!

Over an industrial part of town, the bombers open their doors and start dropping bombs. Explosions rip through the buildings below as we can see people running away from the flames and glass flying everywhere.

From below, the sound of an air raid siren can be heard. Japanese defenders start shooting back with their anti-aircraft guns. The B-25s are trying to dodge the flack, but it’s everywhere. Some of the planes get hit, leaving holes in the side as air starts whipping around inside.

Back in the United States, a general delivers an update to President Roosevelt. He says that Doolittle had to advance the plan by 12 hours. They won’t have enough fuel to return to the mainland.

Back with the planes, Colonel Doolittle breaks radio silence. He tells the men he’s sorry. You’re all brave souls, he says, but we’re on our own.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie Pearl Harbor

This event comes from the 2001 movie called Pearl Harbor and it depicts something that happened this week in history: The bombing of Tokyo during what we now know as the Doolittle Raid.

The movie was correct to suggest the bombers weren’t trying to return to the carriers to land. They learned that in the training for the mission, which began in January of 1942. The reason was simply because landing a bomber on a carrier was much more difficult than taking off.

So, the plan was to drop their bombs and then head to China.

The movie was also correct to show them stripping the planes down by removing guns and adding an extra gas tank. They really did paint broomsticks in the hopes it’d deter Japanese fighters from attacking the bombers, but it’s not like they did it mere minutes before they were going to launch.

With that said, though, the plan was forced to happen ahead of time. That was because a little after 3:00 AM on April 18th, a Japanese boat was detected. The American task force tried to evade the Japanese ship, only to find yet another one on radar. At about 7:30 AM, another Japanese patrol boat was spotted about 11 miles or 18 kilometers away. The movie was also correct to show 16 B-25s.

The movie was wrong to suggest it was all Doolittle’s decision to launch, though.

Another huge thing the movie got wrong was to suggest that two pilots from Pearl Harbor were involved. I’m talking, of course, of the Danny and Rafe characters from the movie—they’re not real, and they weren’t involved in the Doolittle Raid.

In truth, it was Admiral Halsey, who was leading the task force that carried the B-25s. Once Japanese patrol boats started showing up, he didn’t want to risk the American carriers getting any closer so he issued the order for Doolittle to launch.

Doolittle’s B-25s managed to drop bombs on targets in Tokyo, Yokosuka, Yokohama, Kobe and Nagoya, Japan. They didn’t encounter much resistance due in large part to their attack being a complete surprise to the Japanese.

Of the 16 B-25s, 15 of them crashed into occupied China. One landed in the Soviet Union, where it was captured intact.

The targets bombed by the Americans that day didn’t have much of a strategic effect on the war. It did, however, have a massive morale boost for Americans as well as being the first time the war was brought to the Japanese homeland.

If you want to watch the event that happened this week in history, check out 2001’s Pearl Harbor and the Doolittle Raid starts at about two hours and 31 minutes into the movie.

We dug deeper into the true story with historian Marty Morgan on episode #212 of Based on a True Story.

April 21st, 1918. France.

A young man leaves a tent with a young woman. He’s wearing a gray hat striped with red along with a gray sweater. She’s wearing a red and white striped robe as she puts a white scarf around his neck.

“What a great day to fly,” he says to her.

She says he’s a brave man and with a smile, he walks away. Following him are some other soldiers. We can see the clearing where the tent is located is actually an airfield. There are some biplanes and triplanes scattered about the airfield.

A uniformed pilot starts to get into one of the green and white-colored triplanes.

The man from earlier in the gray sweater is standing by an all-red triplane. There’s sad music playing in the movie as he looks around to some of the other pilots, each one getting in their planes. He looks back at the woman, who is just standing there watching him.

Then, he climbs into the red plane.

“Contact!” someone yells as the engine kicks to life.

From the cockpit, he looks right at her. She smiles and the scene fades to black.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie The Red Baron

That scene comes from the 2018 movie called The Red Baron as it depicts the start of an event that happened this week in history: The day the Red Baron was shot down and killed.

Although the movie doesn’t show the actual event itself. It shows them getting in the plane, then it cuts to two weeks afterward, so let’s fill in some historical context about the true story.

Manfred Albrecht von Richthofen, who was known as The Red Fighter Pilot during his lifetime and is more commonly known today as The Red Baron. Since he was the only one in the plane that day, it’s worth pointing out that there has been a lot of debate among historians about exactly what happened.

But as best as we can tell, Richthofen was hit by a bullet during aerial combat just after 11:00 AM on April 21st, 1918 while flying over Northern France near the Somme River. Richthofen was flying with his cousin, Wolfram von Richthofen, so I’ll use their first names since they have the same last name.

The two Germans were battling two Canadian Sopwith Camels, one piloted by Wilfrid May and the other by Arthur Brown.

May attacked Wolfram’s plane, causing Manfred to come to his cousin’s defense. That’s when Brown attacked Manfred’s plane. He dodged Brown’s attack, something that was stopped short when Brown had to pull out of a dive to avoid hitting the ground. Somewhere around there is when we think Manfred was hit by a bullet in the chest. It’s believed he was dead less than a minute later, but his plane stalled, dove and hit the ground hard.

Witnesses on the ground who were nearby said Richthofen was already dead when they got to the crashed plane. At the time, Arthur Brown was credited with the kill. Although, as I mentioned, there’s been a lot of debate over exactly what happened and most people these days think it was actually an anti-aircraft round that struck and killed Richthofen.

There have been a number of investigations into the angles of the anti-aircraft from the Royal Australian Artillery units that were firing into the sky that day, and different investigations came away with some varying answers as to who might’ve been the one to deliver the fatal shot.

If you want to watch Richthofen’s story this week, check out the 2018 movie called The Red Baron and he takes off for the last time at about an hour and 34 minutes into the film.

April 9th, 1865. Appomattox County, Virginia.

We’re at a two-story brick building. The front porch has six columns with a wide staircase in the center. Although it’s a brick building, any wood on the porch, railings for the stairs and on the balcony above the porch all adds a white trim to the building.

On the porch, we can see a bunch of men in the Union’s dark blue uniforms. At the foot of the stairs is a single man wearing a gray Confederate uniform. He’s wearing a hat, sporting a white beard. Another Confederate soldier leads an elegant white horse and the officer gets on.

The camera cuts to the front of the building now where we can see Union General Ulysses S. Grant. He’s played by Jared Harris in the movie.

Grant stands at the top of the stairs, surrounded by six other soldiers in Union blue. He looks at the man on the horse: Christopher Boyer’s character, General Robert E. Lee.

The two foes look at each other in silence for a moment.

Then, Grant steps down from the front porch and walks over to General Lee’s horse. After a moment longer just looking at each other, General Grant takes off his hat. Back on the porch, the rest of the Union officers follow Grant’s lead. They remove their hats in a gesture that I can only assume is out of respect for General Lee.

Lee looks at the men for a moment. Then, tips his hat as his horse backs away. Turning around, two other Confederate soldiers on horseback follow Lee as they walk away from the building.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie Lincoln

That portrayal comes from the 2012 movie called Lincoln and it depicts an event that happened this week in history: The surrender of Confederate General Robert E. Lee.

But in the true story, there was a battle that took place before the event we saw in the movie.

The building we see in the movie is near the Appomattox Court House and before surrendering, General Lee’s army of about 28,000 soldiers fought with General Grant’s armies. While a large number, some estimate only about 10,000 of them even had rifles. So, they weren’t well-equipped.

At the Appomattox train station, Lee was expecting a train with supplies. But, on April 8th, there was a battle at the station that saw the Union cavalry burning the supply train.

On the other side, the Union army had over 60,000 soldiers with much better supplies. They were closing in on General Lee’s soldiers.

In the early morning hours of April 9th, Lee’s chances of escaping were slim. But, he held on hope. Near the Appomattox Court House, Lee’s men battled with Union troops in what Lee hoped would be a thin line that he could get through easily. He’d hoped that once his men broke through Union lines, they could escape to North Carolina where they could resupply and continue fighting.

But, that was a lot of hoping. And they didn’t escape.

General Lee sent a note to General Grant to discuss surrender.

The actual meeting itself took place in the home of a man named Wilmer McLean.

While it’s impossible to know for sure what was on General Lee’s mind, some sources suggest he let his staff know he was wearing his finest uniform that day on the chance he might be taken prisoner. If that’s going to happen, he wanted to look his best. On the other hand, General Grant rode for miles around his armies to arrive at the meeting. His uniform was muddy compared to General Lee’s uniform.

Lee arrived at McLean’s home at about 1:00 PM. Grant arrived at about 1:30.

And at first, General Grant wasn’t really sure how to approach the topic of surrender—so they talked about the Mexican-American War for about 25 to 30 minutes or so.

That topic was brought up because it was the last time Grant and Lee met face-to-face. It was before the American Civil War, but it was a time when Lee and Grant were both in the United States Army. It was before Lee turned down President Lincoln’s offer to command the U.S. Army and instead resigned to take a commission from the Confederate Army.

Finally, General Lee suggested they change topics to the matter at hand: Surrender.

The basic terms of the surrender amounted to the Confederate soldiers being allowed to go home without being pursued or prosecuted as long as they didn’t take up arms again. Officers were allowed to keep their horses and side arms, which usually amounted to their sword. That was a move that many think was to help the surrender go over smoothly by avoiding embarrassment for the Confederate officers.

So, when Grant’s terms basically meant they could go home if they laid down their arms and stopped fighting, that was acceptable. At about 3:00 PM, the meeting was over. Grant made his way to the Appomattox Station where he sent a telegram to President Lincoln letting him know about Lee’s surrender.

While it wasn’t officially the end of the war, General Lee was the overall commander of the Confederate Army so when he surrendered it triggered more surrenders. It was, in effect, the beginning of the end of the Civil War.

If you want to watch the event that happened this week in history, check out the 2012 movie simply called Lincoln and the scene with General Lee surrendering takes place at about two hours, 13 minutes and five seconds into the film.

And if you want to learn more about the true story behind that movie, we covered that with Lincoln scholar Dr. Brian Dirck over on episode #170 of Based on a True Story.

April 13th, 1970. Houston, Texas.

The room we’re in has a row of green computer systems. Of course, they’re not the kind of computers you’d expect to see today—it’s 1970, after all. Most of the computers have operators sitting behind them. The operators all have headsets on. One of the men in the room is standing up as he gives orders to someone not in the room.

He says we’d like you to roll right to 0-6-0 and null your rates.

On the other end of the radio communication, Kevin Bacon’s version of Jack Swigert confirms the order: Roger that, rolling right to 0-6-0.

Back on Earth, another command gets issued: Oh, and go ahead and give your oxygen tanks a stir. Swigert confirms this order, too, and he reaches to the control panel for switches that say “O2 Fans.”

The camera zooms along some lines and electricity crackles. There’s an explosion and alarms start buzzing. Metal banging can be heard as Swigert and the two other men inside Apollo 13 look around. Back at the command center, the computers are flashing indicators. Some of the operators sit back with their hands raised.

“Whoa! Hey. What happened?”

They look around trying to figure out what just happened. The camera cuts to Tom Hanks’ character, Jim Lovell, who says, “Houston, we have a problem.”

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie Apollo 13

That scene comes from the movie named after the spacecraft they were on: Apollo 13. The event it’s depicting is when the disaster started for the astronauts on board, which happened this week in history.

The movie’s portrayal of this event is pretty accurate, although I have to point out one thing that might spoil this scene for you: Jim Lovell’s now famous quote because of the movie wasn’t really: “Houston, we have a problem.”

The actual line was: “Houston, we’ve had a problem.”

Or, in context, here is the communication that took place between the ground and Apollo 13.

055:52:58 Capsule Communicator (CAP COMM)

13, we’ve got one more item for you, when you get a chance. We’d like you to stir up your cryo tanks. In addition, I have shaft and trunnion–

055:53:06 Command Module Pilot: John L. Swigert, Jr.

Okay.

055:53:07 Capsule Communicator (CAP COMM)

– for looking at the Comet Bennett, if you need it.

055:53:12 Command Module Pilot: John L. Swigert, Jr.

Okay. Stand by.

055:55:19 Lunar Module Pilot: Fred W. Haise, Jr.

Okay, Houston – –

055:55:20 Commander James A. Lovell, Jr.

I believe we’ve had a problem here.

055:55:28 Capsule Communicator (CAP COMM)

This is Houston. Say again, please.

055:55:35 Commander James A. Lovell, Jr.

Houston, we’ve had a problem. We’ve had a MAIN B BUS UNDERVOLT.

055:55:42 Capsule Communicator (CAP COMM)

Roger. MAIN B UNDERVOLT.

055:55:58 Capsule Communicator (CAP COMM)

Okay, stand by, 13. We’re looking at it.

055:56:10 Lunar Module Pilot: Fred W. Haise, Jr.

Okay. Right now, Houston, the voltage is – is looking good. And we had a pretty large bang associated with the CAUTION AND WARNING there. And as I recall, MAIN B was the one that had had an amp spike on it once before.

055:56:40 Capsule Communicator (CAP COMM)

Roger, Fred.

Part of the reason I wanted to include some of the transcript from NASA is to point out that even though the iconic “Houston, we have a problem” line wasn’t quite what was really said, the movie does a great job of depicting the event overall. We heard them ask to stir the tanks, then a problem happened soon after.

While they couldn’t have known it at the time, after they managed to make it safely home, a review board found fault with the testing of Teflon added to the oxygen tank. In a nutshell, the switches for the tank weren’t rated for enough volts and it seems the oxygen tank that blew up had undergone tests that could’ve detected the issue.

In tests, the Teflon insulation being used was damaged. So, when they stirred the tanks there was an electrical discharge through some cabling that set the tank on fire. One of the panels blew off the tank, damaging another of the oxygen tanks.

What came after that gripped the nation in a way that led to over 40 million Americans watching when Apollo 13 splashed down.

If you want to watch the event that happened this week in history, though, it starts at about 50 minutes and 30 seconds into the 1995 Apollo 13 movie. And we covered it in more depth on episode #15 of Based on a True Story.

April 14th, 1865. Washington, D.C.

It’s nighttime. Some men are looking at a nice house from behind some bushes. One of the men sneaks inside the home. There are a lot of people in there, but we can tell from how the man inside is sneaking around that he’s not supposed to be there.

Back outside, another of the men still with the horses looks around to make sure no one is noticing them. No one seems to.

One of the men knocks on a door. From inside, we can see a man lying on a bed. A woman sits next to the bed with a man in uniform standing nearby. The man on the bed clearly isn’t feeling well.

Downstairs, someone answers the man knocking at the door. He says he has a package for Secretary Seward.

Then the camera cuts to a playhouse. On stage, two actors are putting on a performance in front of a full audience. Another cut and we can see a young couple chatting, then kissing.

Back at the theater, a man sneaks into a doorway. He ties something to the door after entering it, then looking through a little round hole we can see a couple in the foreground and in the background are the actors on stage down below.

In another cut, we’re now with a man who is drinking. He nervously looks over his shoulder and notices a man in uniform there. He takes another shot, then rushes out of the building.

Meanwhile, back at the house, the man runs up a staircase. He takes aim at the guard sitting next to a door, but the pistol only clicks when he tries to shoot. He rushes the man, knocking him out before turning to a door the man was guarding.

Inside the door, we see the man in what looks like a neck brace sitting in bed with the woman next to him. The man bursts through, immediately being met by another guard who was inside the room. He stabs the guard before pushing the woman away and jumping on the man on the bed, stabbing him numerous times.

The woman runs to the window and starts yelling for help.

Next we’re back at the playhouse. The lines being said by the man and woman on stage doesn’t even really matter to us, the viewing audience at home, but the audience in the movie seems to like them as laughter ripples through the crowd.

The camera cuts to above the stage. A man sneaks into a private booth. While everyone is focusing on the play on stage, we can see a gun extending forward.

A gunshot.

People in the audience scream and a struggle ensues in the box above the stage.

All of a sudden, a man jumps down on stage as the audience tries to understand what’s happening.

The man on stage raises one hand and yells, “Sic semper tyrannis! The South is avenged!”

Then, he hobbles off the stage. In the alley, a horse is waiting. He hops on the horse and runs into the darkness of the night.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie The Conspirator

That depiction comes from the 2010 movie called The Conspirator and it’s showing an event that really did happen this week in history: The assassination of President Abraham Lincoln.

And just like the movie shows, President Lincoln wasn’t the only one attacked that night.

They believed President Lincoln was a greater tyrant than Julius Caesar and thought they’d be honored after killing Lincoln. But, killing Lincoln alone wasn’t enough to throw the government into turmoil.

The plan that night was to assassinate three people: President Lincoln, Vice President Andrew Johnson and Secretary of State William Henry Seward.

All three were supposed to be killed at 10:15 PM on April 14th.

The man we see in the movie who is in his bed is Secretary of State William Henry Seward. And it is true that he was bedridden in his home when the assassination attempt took place. The woman by the bed was Seward’s daughter, Fanny, who was staying with him so he wouldn’t be alone. At 11 PM, his son would take a turn by their dad’s bed.

There were a couple soldiers there, too.

Just like we see in the movie, the man arrived at the door saying he was carrying a package. The movie doesn’t get too specific with it, but we know from history it was medicine. He said he was told to deliver it to Seward himself since no one else knew how to administer the medicine. But, one of Seward’s sons stopped him and said his dad was asleep and he’d take the medicine so as to not disturb him.

That’s when the intruder stopped trying to get into the room peacefully. He drew a revolver and shot at the son. The gun misfired, a lot like we see happen in the movie, and so the attacker used it as a club instead. He burst inside the room, knocking down the soldier inside the room first.

Then, he attacked Seward in bed, stabbing him with his large knife multiple times.

While they couldn’t know it that night, but Secretary of State Seward would end up surviving the attack. His neck and face bore the scars of his attack for the rest of his life.

Meanwhile, another attack on Vice President Andrew Johnson was underway. In the movie, that’s the guy we see drinking at the bar. And in the movie, we see him end up getting scared off and abandoning the assassination plan.

That is true.

The man who was supposed to assassinate Johnson ended up getting drunk instead.

Of course, we know the third assassination did go according to plan.

John Wilkes Booth was an actor who was known by people at the theater. After all, Booth himself had performed there. So, he was able to gain entrance to the president’s box rather easily since his presence wasn’t anything abnormal.

John Wilkes Booth snuck into the box at about 10:12 PM, raised his pistol to the back of Lincoln’s head and fired.

Hearing the shot, the other man in the box, Henry Rathbone, grabbed at Booth. But Booth sliced at Rathbone with his knife and jumped to the stage. That was about 15 feet, or 4.5 meters below the box where Booth jumped from. As he did, though, one of the spurs on his boots got caught up in the flag draped over the front of the president’s box.

So, he hit the stage hard, breaking one of his legs. Still, he got up and yelled the line we see in the movie: Sic semper tyrannis!

That’s Latin for “Thus always to tyrants,” something Booth believed Lincoln to be. Although he wasn’t killed immediately, President Lincoln was taken across the street to a boarding house that was away from the theater. That’s where he died in the morning hours of April 15th.

If you want to see the event that happened this week in history, though, check out the 2010 movie called The Conspirator. The planned assassinations start at about five minutes into the movie.

And if you want to learn more about the true story, we covered that movie with Lincoln scholar Dr. Brian Dirck over on episode #175.

April 14th, 1912. North Atlantic Ocean.

We’ve already done our three events this week, but there’s another major one that I have to include.

The camera is focused on a man wearing a cap. He’s blowing on his hands and rubbing them together to keep warm. Down below, he notices a man and a woman. They’re holding each other’s hand as they run and laugh together.

Meanwhile, two sailors smile as they see the couple down below. They turn around, continuing to chuckle as they look at the ocean before them. One of the men starts to look more closely at something in the distance. The camera zooms in on his face as the smile disappears and a concerned look replaces it.

All of a sudden, he reaches for the bell and starts ringing it. Below, the sound of the bell alerts other sailors. One of the lookouts calls down below. When the man on the other end picks up, he asks what they see.

The lookout yells, “Iceberg, right ahead!”

Down below, the sailor runs to the bridge and relays the news. In a flurry of activity, they try to turn the big ship while reversing the engines in an attempt to avoid a collision. Men all over the ship are doing their part to try and get the ship to respond to their commands as fast as possible.

From above, the lookouts can see the iceberg. It’s still straight ahead, nothing seems to be changing their course. After a few more moments, the flurry of activity finally starts to take its toll on the ship’s direction. Slowly, it starts turning.

For a moment, it looks like it might work.

But, they’re not turning fast enough. The ship scrapes by the iceberg, causing a rumble and horrible-sounding metallic scraping. We can see the inside of the hull being ripped open, allowing water to start flowing inside. In the engine room, water starts pouring in, causing massive amounts of steam from the fires lit to power the engines. It’s a race against time as the rooms are being shut off to prevent water from spreading. The men try to make it out before the rooms close. Some do, some don’t.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie Titanic

I’m sure you already know what movie that comes from: 1997’s blockbuster named after the ship that sank 108 years ago this week in history: Titanic.

The movie did a pretty good job of showing the event, although the young couple—Jack and Rose—were fictional characters of course, so they weren’t there.

At 11:40 PM on April 14th, a lookout by the name of Frederick Fleet spotted the iceberg. And just like we see in the movie, after alerting the crew about the iceberg, they tried to turn hard to starboard—or, a lefthand turn.

But, there just wasn’t enough time. 37 seconds passed between the time the lookout saw the iceberg to the moment it scraped the right side of RMS Titanic.

Within ten minutes, there was about 14 feet of water and rising inside the front of the ship where it was hit. At 12:00 AM on April 15th, the captain of the ship, Captain Edward Smith, got an assessment of the damage. That’s when they realized Titanic can only stay afloat for another two hours and Captain Smith ordered the women and children into the lifeboats first.

At 12:45, the first lifeboat was lowered into the water. There has been a lot of controversy around the lifeboats on Titanic because, for one, there weren’t enough of them for all the passengers. Secondly, the lifeboats that were there were being lowered into the water before they were even full.

There are reports of lifeboats being lowered with only 28 people when it could fit 65 people.

A little after 2:00 AM, the last lifeboat was lowered into the water. There were over 1,500 people still on the boat.

At 2:18 AM, the last radio message from Titanic was sent out just before she snapped in half, sinking at 2:20 AM. The first boat to arrive on location was almost a couple hours later at 4:10 AM when Carpathia arrived to look for survivors. After they were all picked up, at about 8:50 AM they made their way to New York.

Two days later, another ship arrived at the location where Titanic sank and started searching for bodies in the water. Then, on April 18th, Carpathia arrived in New York with 705 survivors of the 2,240 passengers and crew on board Titanic when it sank.

If you want to watch the event that happened this week in history, check out the James Cameron classic film Titanic. The iceberg sequence starts at about an hour and 37 minutes into the movie, and even though it carried over into the early morning hours of the 15^th—so just barely into next week—but there were multiple things that happened this week in history: For example, Titanic left Ireland this week in history as well.

We see that at about 26 minutes into the movie, that’s when Jack got onto the ship. Of course, that didn’t happen the way we see it in the movie since Jack wasn’t a real person, but the event we see happening took place on April 10th. So, if there’s a good week to watch that whole movie, this is it!

And if you want to learn more about the true story, we covered that movie way back on episode #35 of Based on a True Story.

March 13^th, 1943. Krakow, Poland.

There’s a man applying shaving cream to his face.

Then, the camera cuts to another man doing the exact same thing.

For a moment, the scene cuts back and forth between these two men who are obviously in different locations but they’re doing the same thing.

Then, we hear a voiceover. The man speaking says today is history.

We can see it’s one of the men who was shaving who is speaking. He’s dressed now. He’s in a military uniform—a Nazi uniform—and he is speaking to a bunch of other men in Nazi uniforms. They’re all standing around him in a rectangle in between a few buildings.

The man addressing the rest of the soldiers is Amon Göth, who is played by Ralph Fiennes in the film. He repeats himself, saying today is history and you are part of it.

Then he goes on to explain why today is history. He says that 600 years ago, Casimir the Great told the Jews they could come to Krakow. As he continues to talk about how the Jews flourished in Krakow for 600 years, we can see people in Krakow looking out their windows to see a row of tables being set up. A chair behind each table with ink and pen.

Göth ends his speech by saying that by this evening those six centuries are a rumor.

Then, we see a man and a woman riding a horse. This man is the other man who started his day off by shaving. This man is Oskar Schindler, who is played by Liam Neeson.

Trucks filled with Nazis pour into the streets. Göth gives the orders for where to start and how the soldiers will proceed.

From a nearby hilltop, Schindler watches as Nazi soldiers in Krakow rip people from their homes. Many are shot. The rest would be taken to a concentration camp.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie Schindler’s List

This depiction comes from 1993’s Schindler’s List. The event it’s depicting is unfortunately a true event that happened this week in history: The liquidation of Krakow by the Nazis that took place on March 13^th and 14^th in 1943.

In the movie, Ralph Fiennes’ version of Amon Göth mentions Casimir and a 600-year history of Jews in Krakow, and the basic gist of that is true. That would be in the 1300s and King Casimir the Great was the last Polish king from his dynasty as he reigned from 1335 to 1370.

But that’s a story for another day.

During the Nazis liquidation of the Krakow ghetto, the SS murdered 2,000 Jews in the ghetto. Another 2,000 were deemed capable of work and sent to nearby Plaszow concentration camp. That’s the one we see being run by Göth in the movie—and it is true that he was the commandant of that concentration camp. The remaining 3,000 or so Jews were sent to Auschwitz-Birkenau where about 549 of them, 499 men and 50 women were forced into labor and the rest were murdered in gas chambers.

In the movie, we see Liam Neeson’s version of Oskar Schindler watching the liquidation of the Krakow ghetto and it plays a big part in his decision to go on to risk his own life and save over a 1,000 Jews.

At least, that’s how the movie portrays it.

It is true that Oskar Schindler had a factory in Krakow, but it’s not true the liquidation of the ghetto was a major turning point that sparked his movement to save Jews like the movie seems to imply. It was a slower process than that. He convinced Göth to let him set up a special camp of sorts just for the Jews who worked for him.

If you want to watch the event that happened this week in history, it is shown in the 1993 movie Schindler’s List and while the liquidation of the ghetto begins at about 55 minutes, I’d really recommend watching the entire movie to get much better context around it all.

And then, you can take a deep dive into the true story by listening to episode #58 of Based on a True Story.

March 13^th, 1943. Smolensk, Russia.

Our next movie takes place on the very same day as the last movie: March 13^th, 1943.

This time we’re not in Poland, though, but there’s text on the screen in the movie to tell us we’re at The German Eastern Front in Smolensk, Russia.

Two passenger planes are being escorted by two fighters. We can see from the swastika on their tails that they’re Nazi planes. The ground below is covered in a deep green forest. In the middle of the forest is a clearing with a runway.

The fighters pass by the runway as they allow the passenger planes to land first. As they taxi on the runway, a row of Nazi soldiers are standing at attention. A bunch of soldiers pile out of the plane first, followed by more important senior officials.

Then, David Bamber’s version of Adolf Hitler steps off the plane.

We see Hitler meeting with some of his officers. One of them is Kenneth Branagh’s version of General Henning von Tresckow.

In the next scene, Tresckow and another soldier are putting something into a bottle of liquor. Tresckow mentions something about a fuse—this must be a bomb. He places the fuse carefully, then looks up as the sound of the plane’s engines starting back up can be heard. Hitler is leaving.

Tresckow rushes a box to Tom Hollander’s version of Colonel Brandt just before he gets on the plane with Hitler. It’s a wooden box and Tresckow shows what’s inside, a bottle of liquor. Brandt takes it and hops on the plane.

That night, Tresckow is sitting anxiously by the phone when it rings. The plane has landed.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie Valkyrie

This depiction comes from 2008’s Valkyrie. The event depicted in the segment I described is the attempted assassination of Adolf Hitler that took place this week in history on March 13^th, 1943.

While the general idea of what we see in the movie is pretty accurate, there is more to the story.

This plot to kill Hitler was codenamed Operation Flash, or sometimes it’s translated as Operation Spark.

The name, which was given by the General Tresckow, was because he and other anti-Nazi German officers didn’t believe it’d be possible to overthrow the rest of the Nazis while Hitler was alive. So, they’d assassinate Hitler and take Germany back from the Nazis.

Hitler was visiting field headquarters in Ukraine for about a month in early 1943 and on the way back to Germany, he was going to stop in Smolensk where the Army Group Centre’s headquarters were located. General Tresckow was the Chief Operations Officer of the AGC, and a few others involved in the conspiracy were in the AGC as well, so it was a perfect opportunity for them to take action.

There were a few different options. They could just shoot Hitler while he was having dinner, but they didn’t like the idea of shooting an unarmed man. They could start a battle with Hitler’s SS guard, but they didn’t like the idea of Germans fighting each other.

So, they decided to go with the option to put a bomb on the plane that would go off after a period of time. The idea being the plane would take off and blow up in the air.

And just like we see in the movie, the bomb was put into a box that was supposed to have bottles of liquor that Tresckow gave to Colonel Brandt—he really was an officer on Hitler’s staff. Just like we see in the movie, Tresckow asked Brandt to deliver the liquor to General Stieff.

He wasn’t a part of the plot, but Tresckow knew Stieff was anti-Nazi as well.

While Tresckow couldn’t have known it at the time, it seems the detonator got too cold in the atmosphere as the box was in the cargo hold that wasn’t heated. So, the bomb never went off. What we don’t see in the movie is that after they realized the bomb didn’t go off, one of the men working with Tresckow took a plane to retrieve the box from Brandt before the bomb could be discovered.

If you want to watch the event that happened this week in history, the movie I’m talking about of course is the 2008 movie Valkyrie, and the Smolensk-Rastenburg assassination attempt takes place right near the beginning at about six minutes and 40 seconds into the movie.

After you watch that movie, you can learn more about the true story by listening to episode #62 of Based on a True Story.

March 15^th, 44 BC. Rome.

Ciarán Hinds’ character, Gaius Julius Caesar, walks into a massive building followed by a bunch of other men. James Purefoy’s character, Mark Antony, tries to follow but gets distracted by someone else.

Caesar enters a great room filled with lots of men. They’re all wearing white robes with red, almost as if it’s the uniform of the Roman Senate. Because that’s where they are, the Senate of Rome.

Caesar acknowledges other Senators as he enters, telling Barca that he hasn’t forgotten—he doesn’t really say what, but it’s not a focus for long because another senator named Cimber approaches Caesar and reminds him that he was going to consider revoking his brother’s exile.

Everyone wants something from Caesar. Basically, politics. Everyone wants something from someone else.

Caesar tells Cimber that he’s still considering it.

Then, Cimber grabs at Caesar’s hand. Caesar pulls his hand away, looking back at Cimber. Cimber grabs at Caesar’s cloak even harder now. Pushing him away, Caesar and Cimber are facing each other for a moment before Cimber says, “What are you waiting for? Now!”

After an awkward pause, senators from all around start mobbing Caesar and stabbing at him. He grabs the first knife, cutting his hand. But there are too many men surrounding him. Before long, Caesar’s white cloak is soaked in blood.

Lying there bleeding to death, the last man to approach Caesar is Tobias Menzies’ character, Marcus Brutus. Caesar looks up at him and sobs just before Brutus delivers the fatal blow to Caesar.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the TV series Rome.

That’s a description of an event shown in the HBO miniseries called Rome. That event is the assassination of Julius Caesar, which really did happen this week in history on March 15^th, 44 BC.

And it is true that Caesar was stabbed to death by Roman senators like we see in the series. Some sources suggest up to 60 were involved in the assassination that took place on the Ides of March, stabbing him 23 times.

While we associate the term the Ides of March with Caesar’s assassination, the Ides of March wasn’t something that was always linked to Caesar’s assassination. In a nutshell, the Roman calendar worked a lot differently than our calendar does today and Ides simply meant the 15^th day of a 31-day month like March. Later, in William Shakespeare’s play called Julius Caesar there’s the line that says “Beware the Ides of March.” Since then, the term the Ides of March has been tied to Julius Caesar’s assassination.

Speaking of Shakespeare, in the HBO miniseries you’ll also notice another difference: Ciarán Hinds’ version of Caesar does not say “Et Tu Brute?” right before Brutus delivers the fatal blow.

We don’t know for sure if Caesar actually said that, but that famous line is something that, again, comes from Shakespeare’s play.

Although, just like Shakespeare didn’t come up with the term Ides of March, he also didn’t come up with the idea that Caesar said something before he died. Ancient historian Suetonius wrote about the 12 Caesars in the year 119 AD, so long before Shakespeare, but also over 150 years after Julius Caesar’s assassination.

In his writing, Suetonius wrote that when Brutus stabbed him, Caesar said, “You too, my child?”

Of course, that’s the English translation. And because of translations and various writings and reinterpretations and tellings of the story—that’s how we get a variety of different things that Caesar may have said prior to his death.

Or, maybe, he didn’t say anything at all.

If you want to watch the event that happened this week in history, check out the HBO miniseries called Rome, Caesar’s assassination happened in the last episode of the first season. That’s season one, episode 12, at about 36 minutes and 37 seconds.

February 28th, 1993. Waco, Texas.

A line of vehicles are driving quickly down a dirt road.

In the lead we can see two pickup trucks. One of them is red and white, while the other is blue and white. Both pickups are pulling covered trailers. Behind the two pickups are three large, black SUVs—they look like Chevy Suburbans, although it’s hard to verify that’s what they are from the camera angle at a distance. Overhead, a Huey helicopter passes the line of vehicles and heads toward a compound with a large building.

The camera cuts to inside the building with two women. One of the women is holding a screaming baby while behind her a young boy sits on one of the two bunk beds in the room. The other woman, not the one holding the baby, hears a noise outside and looks out the window. She’s surprised to see the helicopter fly overhead.

Downstairs, three men approach the front door. They peer outside to see another flyby with the helicopter.

Taylor Kitsch’s character, David Koresh, turns around from the front door and says all the women and children need to go upstairs right now. One of the women nods in approval as everyone heads upstairs. There are quite a few women and children, too many to count all at once.

As they get the children into rooms, downstairs we can see some of the men handing out guns—assault rifles, maybe a machine gun, it was hard to tell.

Koresh tells the men not to do anything stupid, he’s going to go outside and talk to them. Other men scatter, at least one of them going upstairs, while Andy Umberger’s character, Perry Jones, looks at Koresh and lets out a big breath of air.

Then, Koresh turns around and with one hand already up he opens the front door and steps outside. As soon as he gets outside, his other hand is up. Both arms raised just outside the front door he is rushed by the uniformed men outside. They’re all wearing ATF vests and most of them are carrying heavy weapons.

Koresh yells out for them to calm down, to please stop!

The officers yell back at him to get on the ground. Koresh says there are women and children inside.

Then, some of the pet dogs they have on the compound start barking and growling at the armed ATF agents on the other side of the wooden fence. One of the agents puts his gun over the fence and shoots the dogs.

Hearing that, another agent yells “Shots fired!” and all hell breaks loose.

Koresh is hit as he runs back inside. Jones is hit as a shot goes through the front door just after it’s closed.

Neither are killed, but they’re bleeding badly. From inside the building, one of the men fires back and we can see an ATF agent get hit and go down. One of the women near a window gets shot in the hand, the baby she was holding falling as she hits the ground as well.

Both sides start firing back and forth creating a hail of bullets that rip through the walls, doors, and glass windows of the building.

Inside, as he ducks for cover from the gunfire, Demore Barnes’ version of Wayne Martin calls 911. He screams into the phone that there are 75 ATF agents around our building and they’re shooting at us!

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the TV miniseries Waco

This depiction comes from the 2018 miniseries called Waco and it shows us an event that happened this week in history: The gunfight that started a 51-day siege between the U.S. government and the Branch Davidians. That event took place on February 28th, 1993.

The series was correct to show that 77 agents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives—or just the ATF—went to the Branch Davidians compound 13 miles outside of Waco on the morning of February 28th.

The official reason they were there was to execute search warrants on the compound for weapons as well as a warrant for the arrest of David Koresh. They believed the Branch Davidians had about 250 weapons on the compound. There were 126 Branch Davidians on the compound, 46 of whom were children.

From there, the true story is shrouded in a little more mystery than what we see in the series simply because there’s a lot of “he said/she said” type of finger-pointing.

For example, in the series we see dogs barking at the ATF agents from behind a fence. That’s what causes the agent to shoot the dog, which triggers another agent to think they’re being fired upon so from there everyone opens up.

This is what the official ATF website has to say about how it started:

The Davidians were alerted to the impending raid by a local postman, who was also a cult member. The heavily armed, cult members were waiting in ambush as the agents unloaded from their vehicles. Koresh was outside on the porch, as the agents approached telling him they had a search warrant and instructing him to “get down,” he retreated inside the house. Gunfire burst through the door, as the agents approached, one agent was wounded.

So, that certainly sounds like the Branch Davidians shot first as the agents approached. But, according to Branch Davidian survivors, they deny shooting first. We’ll probably never know the true story for certain.

Another thing the series got right was that 911 call from Wayne Martin. This is an excerpt from the real 911 call:

911, what’s your emergency?

>> There are 75 men around our building and they’re shooting at us in Mount Carmel.

Tell them there are children and women in here and to call it off.

They didn’t call it off.

The ensuing gunfight lasted two and a half hours. Four ATF agents and six Branch Davidians were killed in the opening gunfight. After that, the FBI took over and for the next 51-days the Branch Davidians were held under siege by, according to some reports, up to 900 federal agents.

The siege ended on April 19th, 199,3 and in the end those four ATF agents died while 82 Branch Davidians lost their lives.

If you want to see this week’s event in history depicted on screen, check out the 2018 miniseries called Waco. The ATF agents arrive at the compound at the very beginning of the third episode.

February 29th, 1692. Salem, Massachusetts.

At least a dozen young girls are sitting in a row. They’re each wearing very modest and dull-colored dresses with white bonnets. A few of them also have white aprons. A man seems to be scolding them. He says someone had to have led them to dance around the fire. Save yourselves and tell me who it was.

We can see the man now, it’s Rob Campbell’s character, Reverend Hale. He asks more questions of the girls, none of whom have said a single world.

Did someone drink from the kettle that was over the fire? Were there spells being cast?

Looking at one of the girls right in front of him now, he yells at her.

“Was there!?”

Obviously afraid, she shakily points a finger at Winona Ryder’s character, Abigail Williams, who immediately denies it. She insists it wasn’t her, but the Reverend wants a name. Who was it? Then, Williams gives a name: Tituba.

In the next shot, we can see another Reverend, Bruce Davidson’s version of Reverend Parris, alongside Jeffrey Jones’ Thomas Putnam with Abigail Williams and Charlayne Woodard’s character of Tituba. Williams continues to accuse Tituba, but Tituba insists she didn’t do anything bad. Parris and Putnam throw Tituba to the ground with force while Williams’ claims get even more extreme, saying Tituba made them drink blood.

At this, Reverend Hale is even more outraged. You drank blood!? Then, another claim from Frances Conroy’s version of Ann Putnam, saying it was her baby’s blood—you murdered my babies, Tituba!

Reverend Hale asks Tituba when she compacted with the devil, but Tituba says she doesn’t. To this, Reverend Putnam whips Tituba, saying he’ll beat her to death unless she admits to compacting with the devil. Finally, as the whipping continues, Tituba says she doesn’t desire to work for him.

The “Him” she mentions referring to the devil.

The whipping stops, but Reverend Hale isn’t done with her yet. He’s going to rid her of the devil!

He takes her up into a room and asks her when the devil comes, does he bring other people? Ann Putnam is there, she asks Tituba if Sarah Goode is one of the others working with the devil.

Tituba stutters, she says it was dark, she couldn’t see anyone else.

Reverend Hale tells Tituba that the devil can never overcome a minister, so he will protect her. You are here to help us cleanse this village. Now, who came with the devil?

Ann Putnam again blurts out, asking if it was either Sarah Goode or Osborne. The Reverend insists Tituba give them their names—the names of others in league with the devil!

Then, Tituba, a Black woman from Barbados, tells a story about how the devil tells her that he has white people who belong to him. And she saw Sarah Goode and Osborne!

Others in the room gasp while Anna Putnam says she knew it!

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie The Crucible

This depiction comes from the 1992 movie called The Crucible. The event it’s depicting is when Tituba, Sarah Goode, and Sarah Osborne were accused of witchcraft, which happened this week in history on February 29th, 1692.

Now, the movie is only loosely based on a true story. It’s really an adaptation of a play by Arthur Miller so it’s one more step removed from history, but it is true that those three women were accused of witchcraft this week in history at the beginning of what would become known as the Salem witch trials.

We don’t know a lot about the real Tituba, but we do know that Reverend Samuel Parris brought three enslaved people with him when he arrived in Massachusetts from the Caribbean. It’s likely she was one of them.

We also don’t know if Tituba tried to practice any sort of magic with the young girls in Salem like the movie suggests.

The true story is that Reverend Parris’ 9-year-old daughter, Betty, started exhibiting what they thought was strange behavior. She and the 11-year-old Abigail Williams, who was Reverend Parris’ niece, and the 12-year-old Ann Putnam, Jr. started having fits. They were contorting violently and seemingly uncontrollable bursts of screaming. The town doctor and Reverend Hale, a neighboring minister, came to get to the bottom of these afflictions. The diagnosis was that the girls were bewitched. So, they tried to get to the bottom of it.

Meanwhile, other young girls in the town started to act up in the same manner. They were “afflicted” as well.

Trying to get to the bottom of the bewitchment, the young girls blamed Tituba who, in turn, was beaten as they tried to get a confession out of her. She claimed to see visions of the devil and witches. Two other women, Sarah Goode and Sarah Osborne were also named.

And so it was that, on February 29, 1692, the first arrest warrants were officially issued for Tituba, Sarah Goode and Sarah Osborne. It was the start of what we now know as the Salem witch trials when, between February of 1692 and May of 1693, about 200 people were charged and 19 “witches” were executed.

In 1976, Science magazine published a study that suggested the cause was fungus ergot found in rye, wheat and other cereals that can cause delusions, vomiting and muscle spasms.

If you want to see this week’s event in history depicted on screen, check out the 1992 movie The Crucible. The first accusations start around the 29-minute mark. And if you want to dive deeper into the true story, we covered The Crucible back on episode #143 of Based on a True Story.

March 2nd, 1940. Arcadia, California.

An announcer holds the mic as he waves at the throngs of people behind him. He says it’s the largest crowd ever at Santa Anita with 55,000 in the stands and 20,000 in the infield and it’s only 12 o’clock!

The camera cuts to a man strapping his boot on tight. The camera pans up to show us Jeff Bridges’ character, Charles Howard, and Elizabeth Banks’ character, Marcela Howard. They’re standing along with Chris Cooper’s character, Tom Smith.

Now we can see the man who was pulling on his boots: Tobey Maguire’s character, Red Pollard. Marcela Howard hands Pollard a St. Christopher necklace for luck. And with that, Red says it’s time to go win a race.

In the next shot, we can see Red Pollard being helped onto a horse by Tom Smith. Wearing the number 9, Smith gives Pollard a few last-minute tips. They look nervous, but Pollard reassures them it’ll be fine. Charles Howard takes his seat to watch the race as we see all the horses take their places in the starting gate.

The bell sounds and we can hear the thunder of hooves as the horses race down the track.

We’re in the thick of the race now. At first, Pollard is in the middle of the pack, but as the race continues he falls behind—far behind. Pollard urges his horse on until he catches up to another jockey, Georgie. They chat with each other for a brief moment and let the two horses see each other.

That seems to be all he needs as Pollard urges his horse on ahead.

Before long, he catches up to the rest of the pack. Then he passes one horse. Two. Three. Taking the outside track, they keep passing the other horses almost as if he’s not even trying. As they come around the stretch, the movie switches into slow motion as we see Red Pollard riding Seabiscuit way ahead of the rest of the pack. The crowd is cheering as Seabiscuit takes the victory!

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie Seabiscuit

This depiction comes from the 2003 movie named after the horse called Seabiscuit. The event it’s depicting is when the real Seabiscuit ran his last race, which happened this week in history on March 2nd, 1940 at the Santa Anita Park in Arcadia, California.

And just like in the movie, he won that race…but it didn’t happen quite like we see in the movie.

The true story is that Seabiscuit didn’t fall that far behind only to race ahead of everyone else so easily.

You can find footage of the race itself on YouTube and there’s no indication of Red Pollard chatting with another jockey named George Woolf in the middle of the race, either. George is played by Gary Stevens in the movie, and he was based on a real person who raced in the 1940 Big ‘Cap, as the Handicap is called.

In the true story, George was riding Heelfly and came in sixth place.

So, while the race itself wasn’t quite as dramatic as the movie shows it to be, it is true that Seabiscuit came in first place and cemented his name in the history books.

If you want to see this week’s event in history depicted on screen, check out the 2003 movie Seabiscuit. The final race starts at about two hours and four minutes into the film. If you want to dig deeper into the true story, we covered that movie back on episode #131 of Based on a True Story.

November 22^nd, 1963. Dallas, Texas.

We’re seeing a sequence of what looks like old film footage fitting of the 1960s, with what is obviously some real, historical footage. We can tell some of it’s real because we can see President John F. Kennedy here and there. Now, Air Force One is taxiing on the runway. And now President Kennedy is descending the steps with his wife, Jackie Kennedy, as well as some other men behind them. The movie cuts to show an injured woman in the hospital. She’s moaning something about how they have to tell them.

As you can tell, the movie is cutting back and forth pretty quickly between the President arriving in Texas—we can tell because someone is holding the Texas flag in one of the shots—and the woman in the hospital bed.

She reaches a hand up to a man standing next to the bed and with a bandage on her head, she manages to get out the words, “Friday. They’re going to kill Kennedy.”

Now we’re traveling along a road lined with people. Everyone is waving at us, giving the impression we’re in a car driving by. As we see footage of Kennedy shaking hands with people in the crowd, we can hear the hospital woman’s voice gasping, “Call somebody. Please, stop them!”

The camera cuts quickly back to her and while it’s hard to see how many are in the room with her, but no one seems to be doing anything about her pleas.

Now we’re back with Kennedy. It’s not just as he’s greeting the crowd, but there are closeup shots of him giving speeches, smiling, and at a fancy dinner. It’s obviously not all the same day, but it does a great job of contrasting the shots of the woman moaning her warnings in the hospital. That’s especially true since all the shots of Kennedy have been in color while the shots of the woman in the hospital are in black and white. Another form of contrast.

Then, we see the text on the screen giving us the date: Dallas. November 22, 1963.

Jackie Kennedy is holding a bouquet of roses next to her husband as throngs of people reach out their hands to try and shake hands or maybe simply touch the First Lady and President they so clearly adore.

In the next shot, it’s black and white again, but we can see it’s still with the President and Jackie as they’re in the back of a car. It’s a convertible with three rows of seats. As the car drives by, we can clearly see who is seated where in the car.

So, let’s pause the movie and try to imagine this seating arrangement as I explain it. Let’s say we’re looking top down at the car, that might be the easiest way to explain who is seated where.

In the first row of seats, on the left side is a man who is driving the car. This is the United States, after all, so that’s where the driver sits. To the right of the driver is another man. So, there are two men in the front row.

In the second row, just behind the driver is a woman seated on the left side. To her right is a man. So, that’s the second row.

The third and final row is where the President and First Lady are seated. Jackie Kennedy is seated on the left side while the President is on the right side of the car.

Now, this is all real footage in the movie. We can tell that by identifying the President and Jackie Kennedy—they’re not actors, this is the real thing. So, that means the other people are also the real people, but the movie doesn’t mention who they are here. So, before we hit play on the movie, let’s clarify who they are just to finish off this seating arrangement.

The driver of the car, front row on the left side, was a man named William Greer. He was a U.S. Secret Service agent. The man in the front passenger seat on the right side was another U.S. Secret Service agent named Roy Kellerman.

Seated behind the two agents in the front row, the man and woman in the second row were the Texas Governor and his wife. So, Governor John Connally was sitting in the second row on the passenger side of the car while his wife, Idanell Connally—she usually just went by Nellie—was sitting on the driver’s side in the second row, just behind the driver, and just in front of Jackie Kennedy.

Then, as I mentioned, in the third row you have Jackie Kennedy on the driver’s side and President Kennedy, third row, passenger’s side.

So, a quick recap before we hit play again:

• Front row driver’s side, Agent William Greer
• Front row passenger’s side, Agent Roy Kellerman
• Second row driver’s side, Texas First Lady Nellie Connally
• Second row passenger’s side, Texas Governor John Connally
• Third row driver’s side, U.S. First Lady Jackie Kennedy
• Third row passenger’s side, U.S. President John Kennedy

Okay, so hopefully you’ve got a good visual in your head because that’s very important for what’s about to happen.

Hitting play on the movie again, the black convertible limo drives off, and we can see there are a lot of police motorcycles in the front and behind the President’s car. The camera stays trained on the car, we can see there are a number of people lined up along the side of the road, too. Just like we saw in earlier footage, these people seem to be cheering, waving, and enjoying their chance to see the President.

In another shot, we can see more of the cars and it’s not just motorcycles. There are other cars in the motorcade. The one just behind the President’s limo has four men in suits riding along the runner boards, hanging onto the car. We can presume these are also U.S. Secret Service agents.

There are scenes of the Kennedys smiling in the back of the car as people along the side smile back and wave. The camera cuts to a shot of a billboard over a building. Alongside the advertisement is a clock giving us the time: 12:15.

In a sequence of quick shots, we see a man falls to the ground in what looks like a seizure. The President’s motorcade takes a right turn on the streets lined with crowds of people. Back to the billboard, the time is 12:18.

Cutting back to the man who was on the ground, a woman and two men have come to his aid. One of the men looks to be a police officer. A siren can be heard as an ambulance arrives on the scene.

Now, we’re back with the President’s motorcade as they seem unaware of what was happening in the other shots we just saw. They’re smiling and waving at the crowds as the vehicles continue down the street.

Back to the billboard and the time changes from 12:22 to 12:23.

In the back of the ambulance, now, we can see the man who had the seizure lying motionless in the back. We only see a split second, though—remember, these are all fast shots that take me longer to explain than to see in the movie, haha!

The motorcade keeps driving. Now we can see people not just on the street, but as there are tall buildings on either side there are people from the windows who are looking down as the President’s limo passes by with all the other cars.

The clock on the billboard says it’s 12:25 now. More shots of the motorcade driving, and people in the crowd cheering and waving signs. One of them we can read says, “Hooray for JFK!”

The billboard clock says it’s 12:29 now. The President’s motorcade takes a right turn on the street, but from the camera’s angle in the front the limo is going from the right to left side of the frame. More camera cuts of them driving as the crowds along the side of the road clap and cheer.

Back to the billboard clock and now it’s 12:30.

We can see a man standing by shooting film footage as the President’s motorcade passes by. More cheering and clapping. From an angle behind a street sign we can see the President’s limo coming toward us now. Cut to a closeup of President Kennedy as he seems to be looking right at the camera to give a nod, a smile, and a wave.

Then, the movie cuts to black as we hear the sound of a gun cocking.

A second later, the sound of a gunshot rings out.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie JFK

That sequence comes from the 1991 film simply called JFK. I’m sure you figured out what this was a long time ago, but the event is when President John F. Kennedy was assassinated in a part of Dallas, Texas, known as Dealey Plaza. That happened 60 years ago this week in history on November 22^nd, 1963.

And the movie is correct to show the time being 12:30 PM local time when Kennedy was shot. He was officially pronounced dead about 30 minutes later. The movie was even correct to show there being a clock on the Hertz billboard. That billboard was on top of the Texas School Book Depository building where Lee Harvey Oswald was located.

Now, to be up front about this, there are a lot of conspiracy theories surrounding JFK’s assassination. What really happened—the true story—is something that many people debate even to this day.

In fact, if you have anything you’d like to add, I love hearing about all the conspiracy theories, so please do hop into the Based on a True Story Discord server and start a conversation.

With that said, in describing the movie’s depiction of the event, I mentioned how it used a mixture of real footage as well as re-enacted footage. Some of that was more obvious, like the black and white footage of the woman in the hospital. That’s Rose Cherami, we’ll come back to her in a moment. But some of the footage the filmmakers inserted to make it look realistic was less obvious, like the split second when we see the man filming the President’s motorcade as it’s in Dealey Plaza. That man is supposed to be Abraham Zapruder, who became famous for his 8mm home-movie of the President’s assassination. Of course, he was just there to shoot footage of the President’s motorcade. He didn’t know he’d be filming an assassination and that his footage would forever be known afterward as the Zapruder Film and become crucial evidence in the assassination.

But in the movie, we see Zapruder filming the footage. That’s obviously inserted by the filmmakers, because no one at Dealey Plaza that day was filming Abraham Zapruder filming the motorcade. So, that’s a great example of how they added scenes into that opening sequence to make it seem more realistic.

So, what about Rose Cherami? In the movie she’s played by Sally Kirkland, but Rose was a real person. She was working as a prostitute and had a drug addiction when she was picked up along the highway in Louisiana on November 20^th, so two days before the assassination. It is true that she was taken to the hospital, but what we don’t see in the movie was that it was a mental hospital. East Louisiana State Hospital to be precise. While she was there, she started acting violently and saying a lot of things. We don’t know for sure exactly what she said, but allegedly some of it had to do with Kennedy being assassinated. The doctors chalked it up to drug withdrawals, though, so it didn’t go anywhere.

Something else that I mentioned was the seating arrangement in the President’s limo. That’s important for many reasons, but one of the big ones is because even though President Kennedy was shot twice, he was not the only person in the President’s limo who shot that day.

The man sitting in front of President Kennedy, the Texas Governor John Connally was also shot. The reason that’s a big deal is because the trajectory of the bullet going from President Kennedy and into Governor Connally has long been the subject of debate. The term shown in the movie is one put forth by the man at the center of the film, Kevin Costner’s version of New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison, the “Magic Bullet Theory.”

A couple months ago, I had a chat with historian Marty Morgan about it, and he had some great insights to offer. Here’s where I set up how the movie describes the “Magic Bullet Theory” and what Marty had to say.

[02:15:11] Dan LeFebvre: Something that Jim Garrison talks about in the trial, the magic bullet, and Garrison says it was accepted by the Warren Commission report, and I’ll give the movie’s explanation for how he explains the magic bullet.

It says that there were three shots. One of them, or a fragment of one of them hit a man named James Tagg, who was standing near the triple underpass. He was the third wounded man, a bystander who was basically at the wrong place, wrong time. Thankfully it was a superficial wound, but we know that had one of the bullets basically.

And then one of the bullets was the fatal headshot that killed Kennedy. And so the theory here is that. That means there’s one bullet left that had to have caused the remaining seven wounds on Kennedy and Connolly. And this is where Jim Garrison’s character explains the theory, the magic bullet theory.

And I’m just gonna pull this direct quote, if you’ll let me, just direct quote from the movie. I paused it to quote this. It says, The magic bullet enters. President, the president’s back headed downward at an angle of 17 degrees. It then moves upward in order to leave Kennedy’s body from the front of his neck.

Wound number two, where it waits 1. 6 seconds, presumably in midair, where it turns right, then left then left, continues into Connelly’s body. At the rear of his right armpit, wound number three, the bullet then heads downward at an angle of 27 degrees, shattering Connelly’s fifth rib and exiting from the right side of his chest.

Wound number four, the bullet then turns right and re enters Connelly’s body at his right wrist, wound number five, shattering the radius bone, the bullet. Exits Connelly’s wrist, wound number six, makes a dramatic U turn and buries itself into Connelly’s left thigh, wound number seven, from which it later falls out and is found in almost pristine condition on a stretcher in a corridor in Parkland Hospital.

So that’s how the movie describes this. Magic bullet theory. I guess my question about that is a two parter. Is the magic bullet theory really something that according to the movie, it’s recommended that, the Warren commission used it in their report. Also, it seems silly, but how plausible is that theory?

[02:17:41] Marty Morgan: It’s completely implausible because the magic bullet nonsense failed to account for the fact that the president and the governor were not seated. In tandem, perfectly, the president was in a jump seat that was lower than Governor Connolly’s seat, and then the president was slightly outboard of Governor Connolly within the vehicle.

In addition to that, Governor Connolly had turned and was talking to the president over his right shoulder. Ironically, Because there were some crowds out, Governor Connolly apparently was saying to the president, see, Mr. President, Dallas does love you. Because he had some concerns that there were some big opponents of the Kennedy administration in the city.

And ironically, yeah, he said that, ironically, shortly before the fire opened up, that when the when the thoracic cavity wound hits the president in his back, it exits in his throat. It then travels straight in a perfectly straight line forward and strikes governor Connolly, who once again is sitting slightly inboard from the president, and he’s also speaking over his right shoulder.

It strikes him, passes through his body, is deflected off of the bone, and then lodges in his arm. And when you account for the fact that the two men were not perfectly in tandem, but were offset from one another, the trajectory of the bullet lines up perfect and there’s nothing magic going on at all, but if you’re Jim Garrison and you want to introduce.

The shadow of a doubt. What are you going to do? You’re going to make it sound you’re going to go to the absurd lengths To make it sound like this can’t possibly be true. And the movie depicts it in this powerful graphic way in that he has two members of the DA’s office support team sitting perfectly tandem for one another, just like that.

And he’s using a pointer and he is trying, and he’s sarcastically and ridiculously exaggerating. And it makes this turn. It makes that turn. Then it passes through Rick pauses while he collects its thoughts and he, this is the perfect example. Of the way that Jim Gears deliberately filibustered this idea that he was purposely hunting for and on the lookout for any detail that he could call critical attention to.

And if you imagine the two men sitting in tandem, the magic bullet theory seems like an absurdity. If you picture them sitting as they actually were. It’s not another big issue that comes up within the breadth of the context of the movie. Just a few later, it was a lingering thing. And in fact, it was the big takeaway people took away from the movie after it came out the whole up and to the left, up and to the left.

He repeats it several times in the movie to the point that there was a Seinfeld episode that satirized up into the left, up into the left. Up into the left was intended to call critical attention to the idea of if it’s a single shooter and it’s Lee Harvey Oswald and he’s on the sixth floor of the Texas school book depository building, the shots will be coming from behind the president.

And by calling attention to up into the left he’s inviting everyone to consider that. The headshot couldn’t have come from behind. It had to come from in front of it which is the only big evidentiary weakness to the single shooter idea, in my opinion, but Jim Garrison didn’t stop and pause and feel an obligation to say to the jury, I should tell you, by the way, that the men weren’t sitting in tandem to one another.

They were all set. And I should also tell you, by the way, that part of the reason that the president’s body reacts up and to the left, and then he collapses down to the left is Now that day, the president was wearing his back brace, so the president’s torso is braced. So there are certain ways that man’s body would not move.

And because of his back brace, he’s not going to slap back as a result of a bullet. His body is going to behave different than someone who’s not encumbered by a brace. And if the head shot, if a single shooter is what happened, and the head shot. Came from behind instead of in front that headshot, which was a glancing blow.

It was not a direct hit, but a glancing blow of it hit here with the president’s body confined within his back brace. He’s not going to slash forward like he would expect it to as a result of a shot coming from behind, but he’s going to behave differently. And I think what we see is a body that is locked into.

A back brace and he has was already slumped over a little to the left as it was in favoring the left and the bullet hits a glancing blow. His body is reacting within his back brace and then he slumps over left because there’s structure of the vehicle on the right side. He’s not going to slump over to the right because there’s the vehicle.

The only thing between him and the first lady at that point was the empty part of the back seat. And so he slumps over to the left. So his body doesn’t behave perfectly like Jim Garrison wants it to behave. And, oh, no, wait his body does behave perfectly like Jim Garrison wants it to behave because he wants it to look like he’s shot from in front.

Because then if there’s a shot coming from in front of him, that means yet the grassy knoll, that’s true. That means that there were multiple shooters and this was an ambush. Set up by multiple shooters operating as a part of a coherent plan in concert with one another. And that means that the first shooter on the sixth floor delivered his shots and the grassy Noel delivered this kill shot.

And so it gives Jim Garrison what he wants. Jim Garrison had to have known that the president was in a back brace. He just doesn’t mention it. And Oliver Stone doesn’t mention it either, does he?

If you want to watch the movie that we talked about today that’s the 1991 Oliver Stone film called JFK. We started our segment today right at the beginning of the movie, about four minutes and 25 seconds into it, just before we see the text of November 22^nd, 1963 a few seconds later.

And if you want to hear my full conversation with Marty about the historical accuracy of the JFK movie, scroll on back to episode #274 of Based on a True Story. That episode is about three hours long, so we dig into a ton of detail…if that’s too long for you, we did a narrative episode without any interviews that’s about an hour long back on episode #126 of Based on a True Story. As always, I’ll add a link to both of those in the show notes for this episode.

November 22^nd, 1963. Dallas, Texas.

Same day. Same location. Different movie.

We’re inside an airplane. A bunch of people are gathered around a small black and white TV watching a news report about President Kennedy. As a little side note, what we see on the TV here is not re-enacted for the movie, this is real footage of journalist Walter Cronkite soon after Kennedy’s shooting.

Everyone is watching Cronkite’s report as he’s talking about how the Ambassador to the United Nations was assaulted in Dallas on October 24^th. Then, Cronkite puts on his glasses to read from a flash report that he’s just received. He says:

“The flash, apparently official, President Kennedy died at 1:00 PM Central Standard Time, 2:00 Eastern Standard Time, some 38 minutes ago.”

The camera cuts to everyone in the room on the plane, a bunch of men in suits along with one woman as they look somberly at the TV that’s now off frame.

But we can hear Cronkite continue talking as he says that Vice President Lyndon Johnson has left the hospital in Dallas, but we don’t know where he’s proceeded.

The camera cuts to a closeup of Woody Harrelson’s version of Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson as he looks down with a stern face.

In the background, Cronkite says that presumably he’ll be taking the oath of office shortly and become the 36^th President of the United States.

Johnson addresses everyone in the room. We can see there are more women now that the camera angles change, and all the men and women turn away from the TV to look at him as he thanks them for getting there so quickly. He says he’ll need their help back in Washington. Then, he asks one of the women to join him in the next room. He leaves, following another man as they walk just down the hall to a room.

He opens the door for Johnson, who walks in and looks at a neatly made bed. Above it is a round design that says: Seal of the President of the United States. This was Kennedy’s room on Air Force One.

Johnson hangs up his coat, and in the next shot we can see him sitting on the bed with the phone to his ear. The other man, presumably a Secret Service agent, stands in the small room as the woman he asked to go into the room with him is sitting at the end of the bed. She’s holding a notepad, ready to take notes for Johnson’s phone call.

On the phone call, he’s talking about how there’s a lot of confusion there and it’s liable to turn into panic. He says it might put a lot of people at ease if he were to take the oath right now.

On the other end of the line, we can see Michael Stahl-David’s character, Bobby Kennedy. He tells Johnson that Washington will still be there when he gets back. Reading between the lines of dialogue in the movie, it’s clear that Bobby Kennedy is implying Johnson can wait until he gets back to Washington to take the oath. But, he says he’s not sure what the hurry is, but he tells Johnson that if he wants to take the oath then take the oath.

Johnson asks Bobby to get him the exact, precise words so they can make sure to do it right. Then he asks who they need to administer it, to which Bobby says any judge can do it. Johnson thanks Bobby and hangs up the phone.

In the next shot, we see a woman holding up a Bible. On top of the Bible is Johnson’s hand. Behind Johnson is a bunch of men and women in the room. Lyndon Johnson’s wife, Lady Bird Johnson, is on his right side while Jackie Kennedy is on his left side. Since we’re looking at them, though, the camera shows Jackie on Johnson’s right side.

With his left hand on the Bible and his right hand held up, Johnson repeats each the words the woman says as he takes the oath.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie LBJ

That sequence comes from the 2016 film with more presidential initials: LBJ.

That stands for Lyndon B. Johnson, the Vice President of the United States who was two cars behind the President’s limo in the motorcade when Kennedy was shot. Just like we see in the movie, Johnson’s wife, Lady Bird, was there as well.

Yes, her name really is Lady Bird. Well, that’s a nickname. She was born Claudia Alta Taylor, but got the nickname Lady Bird as a small child when her nursemaid called her, “pretty as a ladybird.” The nickname stuck and by the time she was an adult it’s what basically everyone called her. Well, again, sometimes that varied. Some people called her Lady, her husband called her Bird, but you get the idea.

After President Kennedy was shot at 12:30 PM, the motorcade rushed to Parkland Memorial Hospital. Obviously, the President had been shot, and they weren’t sure if the Vice President had been hurt. There wasn’t an obvious gunshot, but some people thought maybe he had a heart attack or something—they weren’t going to take any chances.

As it turns out, he was fine. Well, as fine as you can expect after seeing the President assassinated a couple cars ahead of you. The Secret Service agents there wanted him to leave Dallas. Again, they didn’t want to take any chances.

But Johnson refused to leave until he knew what happened to Kennedy. While they were at the hospital, the President was pronounced dead. Johnson found out about it about 20 minutes later, at 1:20 PM. About 20 minutes after that, Johnson left the hospital and made his way back to Love Field in Dallas in an unmarked car. That’s where the airplane was—Air Force One, except it’s only called that when the president is on board.

When he got there, he waited again. They wanted to leave, but Johnson refused to leave without JFK’s wife, Jackie Kennedy. She refused to leave Dallas without her husband’s body. So, they rushed to get JFK’s casket onto Air Force One. This time, there was another delay because throughout this time there was no President of the United States. Johnson had to take the oath.

In the movie, we see Johnson calling JFK’s brother, Robert Kennedy, before he takes the oath. And that is true, he really did do that. Robert Kennedy didn’t like Johnson—neither did JFK, according to many reports, he was mostly on the ticket to help get votes—but that’s a whole other story. For our story today, yes, Lyndon Johnson did call Robert Kennedy soon after JFK was assassinated.

So, with all of that said, it’s probably not a surprise that the next scene we see in the movie is a good representation of what really happened.

Oh, and something I forgot to mention about the footage of Walter Cronkite that everyone on Air Force One is watching in the movie…I mentioned it is real footage, so it’d be correct to mention how Adley Stevenson was assaulted in Dallas—Adley Stevenson was the UN Ambassador at the time, who was speaking to promote the UN. There were protesters in Dallas who heckled, spit on him, and one woman even hit him with a protest sign. In fact, there’s a photo of that woman, Mrs. Cora Frederickson, sticking her tongue out at him—I’ll add a link to it in the show notes in case you want to see it.

When Lyndon B. Johnson was given the oath of office aboard Air Force One, the movie was correct to show Jackie Kennedy and Lady Bird on either side of him. It was also correct to show a woman giving the oath of office. That was Judge Sarah T. Hughes. There’s a famous photo of that scene, too, that I’ll add in the show notes also in case you want to compare the movie’s version with it.

Speaking of the movie’s version of events, if you want to watch it on screen check out the 2016 film called LBJ. We started our segment right at the beginning, about three minutes in.

And if you want to dig deeper into the true story, we covered that movie back on episode #127 of Based on a True Story.

November 23^rd, 1939. Warsaw, Poland.

We’re in a nice room, it looks like someone’s living room or perhaps a dining room. An older man is sitting at a wooden table, looking down at a newspaper that he’s holding in his hands. There’s a red headline on the paper but, it’s in Polish so I’m not sure what it says. Thankfully, since this is a movie, he’s reading the paper aloud so if you’re an English-speaker like me, we know what the newspaper says.

He reads what sounds like the headline, saying, “Free emblems for Jews in the Warsaw district.” Then he’s clearly reading someone’s quote in the paper as he continues reading, “I hereby order that all Jews in the Warsaw district will wear emblems when out of doors.”

The camera cuts to behind the man and we can see he’s not alone in the room. His family is there with him. We know it’s his family because the older man who’s reading the paper is portrayed in the movie by Frank Finlay and, according to the credits, he’s simply cast as “Father.”

In the room there are three other people sitting at the table with him; two women and a man. Based on their ages alone I’d guess it’s Father’s wife seated at the other end of the table while the man and women on either side must be their children. The man just to Father’s right is Adrien Brody’s character, Wladyslaw Szpilman.

There are two other adult children, one man and one woman, sitting in chairs just behind the table in the middle of the room. They’re also listening as the older man continues reading the decree.

“This decree will come into force on the first of December 1939, and applies to all Jews over 12 years of age.”

No one in the room is hardly moving. The only movement we can see is Wladyslaw as he’s slowly tapping his fingers on the tablecloth. There’s no noise at all, the room is completely silent but for the older man continuing to read.

“The emblem will be worn on the right sleeve and will represent a blue star of David on a white background. The background must be sufficiently large for the star to measure eight centimeters from point to point. The width of the arms of the star must be one centimeter. Jews who do not respect this decree will be severely punished. Governor of Warsaw district.”

He finishes reading the paper and looks up at his family around him. There’s a moment of silence before the man in the background is the first to speak. He says he won’t wear it. The woman at the table agrees, saying she won’t be branded. Wladyslaw asks to see the paper, and Father hands it to him. Father then says, aren’t we asked to provide these armbands ourselves? Where will we get them?

The man in the back says more sternly now, saying they’re not going to get them because they’re not going to wear them.

The true story behind this week’s event depicted in the movie The Pianist

That sequence comes from the 2002 called The Pianist. The event it’s depicting is when the Jews of Poland were ordered to wear the Star of David, which was a decree that was ordered this week in history on November 23^rd, 1939.

And right away, I want to point out there may be a slight discrepancy with what we see in the movie and the date that I gave in the opening of this segment. The reason for that is because the movie doesn’t really show us when they’re reading the newspaper. Maybe it’s the day after it was printed, maybe it’s the same day, maybe it’s some other time.

There’s also a difference because the announcement we hear them reading in the paper is from the Governor of the Warsaw district. That’s how the quote is signed at the end, as we just heard.

The decree that took place on November 23^rd, 1939 was not just for the city of Warsaw in Poland, but for all of Poland. That decree was made by Hans Frank, who was the Governor General of Nazi-occupied Poland.

But the movie’s mention of other details in the decree were pretty accurate. Frank’s decree said that starting in December, all Jews in Poland over the age of 12 had to wear a white armband with the blue Star of David. Considering the Nazis had invaded Poland in September of 1939, then this identifier was forced upon them just a couple months later—that’s fast.

While I didn’t cover this part of the movie in my description, just before today’s segment started there were mentions in the movie of how Jews aren’t allowed to enter certain locations. They can’t be on public benches, and so on. Those sorts of restrictions were very true and, sadly, while the Star of David was a notable one as it made public mockery, torment, and abuse a lot easier for the assailants, it was not the only restriction on Jews in Nazi-occupied Poland.

So, let’s back up for a moment to get an overview of the restrictions in Warsaw.

On September 1^st, 1939, Poland was attacked by Germany, the Slovak Republic, as well as the Soviet Union. That was officially the start of World War II.

A little over a month later, on October 12^th, the Nazis imposed the first restriction on Jews in Warsaw when they said Jews weren’t allowed to withdraw more than 200 zlotys per week, and Jewish families weren’t allowed to have more than 2,000 zlotys in cash at any given time.

As you can probably guess, zlotys is the Polish currency.

In 1939, $1 U.S. dollar was worth about 5.31 zlotys. So, 200 zlotys per week was about $37.66 per week in 1939’s dollar. That’s the same as about $800 in today’s U.S. dollars, to adjust for inflation. So, that means the 2,000 zlotys maximum for Jewish families in Warsaw was about the same as $188.32 in U.S. dollars back in 1939. Adjusting for inflation between 1939 and today, that’s a little over $4,000.

That was just the start of the restrictions.

On October 21^st, Jews were restricted from dealing textiles or processed leathers.

On October 22^nd, Jews weren’t allowed to own radios or go to movie theaters. Any Jewish teachers in schools were also prohibited from teaching.

On November 15^th, Jewish women weren’t allowed to be prostitutes.

On November 17^th, no Jews were allowed to be outdoors after 5:00 PM.

Then, on November 23^rd, the Star of David decree was made. That went into effect on December 1^st, 1939.

And the restrictions continued…Jews couldn’t enter the central post office on December 3^rd, any and all Jewish educational institutions were closed on December 5^th, on December 22^nd, Jews weren’t allowed to own telephones. On December 23^rd, all Jews were ordered to declare the property they owned. At this point, just declare it so Nazi leadership would know who owned what—but it’s no surprise where that’s going.

And that’s just in 1939. I’ll include a link in the show notes to the Jewish Virtual Library’s article listing out the dates for restrictions going into the next year as well.

But if you want to watch the event that happened this week in history in a movie, check out the 2002 film called The Pianist. We started our segment today at about 10 minutes into the movie, and covered that story in more depth way back on episode #34 of Based on a True Story.