00:00:01:29 – 00:00:35:26
Dan LeFebvre
Hello and welcome to Based on a True Story, the podcast that compares your favorite Hollywood movies with history. Today we’re going to the Golden Age of Hollywood as we learn about the TV show simply called feud. Now, as of this recording, there are two seasons of feud, with each season focusing on a completely different, well, feud. So more specifically today we’re talking about the first season, eight episodes that aired in 2017, all about the rivalry between legendary actresses Joan Crawford and Betty Davis.

00:00:35:29 – 00:01:03:03
Dan LeFebvre
So let’s start with a quick refresher of what happens in the TV series. The first season of feud centers around the two successful actresses joining forces to make the movie called Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? In the early 1960s, Joan Crawford is played by Jessica Lange, while Betty Davis is played by Susan Sarandon. Episode by episode. The show traces how two aging legends in a male dominated Hollywood fight for respect, relevance, and recognition.

00:01:03:05 – 00:01:31:11
Dan LeFebvre
In the first episode, Joan, whose stardom is fading, pushes for Baby Jane and teams up with Betty Davis and director Robert Aldrich, only to find their strong personalities clash from the start. Aldrich is played by Alfred Molina in episode two. Tensions rise as homelife pressures, creative pride and external meddling. Studio politics, the press, showy supporting actors and so on drive Joan and Betty further apart, even as the production demands cooperation.

00:01:31:14 – 00:01:54:26
Dan LeFebvre
In episode three, we learn more about Joan’s family life with her daughters. By episode four, Baby Jane becomes a hit. There’s critical acclaim for Betty as Joan grows jealous. Then, in episode five, the rivalry is sent into the public’s eye at the 1963 Oscars, thanks to a secret plan from Joan and her friend had a Hopper. They talk nominee’s into letting Joan accept the award for them.

00:01:54:28 – 00:02:15:25
Dan LeFebvre
Hopper is played by Judy Davis in the TV series. Episode six suggests another teaming up of Betty Davis and Joan Crawford on yet another movie by Robert Aldrich called hush, Hush, Sweet Charlotte. But things turn to the worse in episode seven, when Joan finds out that Betty and Robert are having an affair, and this seems to give Betty some extra power on set.

00:02:15:26 – 00:02:45:21
Dan LeFebvre
So Joan tries her own stunt to get attention. She fakes an illness that forces the film’s production to a halt. That is, until she’s replaced on the film by Olivia de Havilland, who’s played by Catherine Zeta-Jones. And then the season concludes in episode eight, showing Joan’s final retirement from the movie business. Her illness and eventual death. Joining us today is Scott Simon, the author of a number of biographies from figures in the Golden Age of Hollywood, from Cary Grant and John Ford to Cecil B to Mel and John Wayne.

00:02:45:23 – 00:03:00:17
Dan LeFebvre
Scott’s newest book is called Joan Crawford A Woman’s Face, and you’ll find a link to it in the show notes to pick up your own copy. And while you find that, let’s set up our game for this episode. Now, if you’re new to the show, so it’s based on a true story is all about separating fact from fiction in the movies.

00:03:00:19 – 00:03:19:12
Dan LeFebvre
You’ll get to practice your skills at separating fact from fiction in this podcast episode with a game of two truths in a lie. So I’m about to give you three things that we’ll talk about in this episode. Two of them are true, and that means one of them is just an all out lie. Are you ready? Okay, here they are.

00:03:19:15 – 00:03:46:17
Dan LeFebvre
Number one, Joan Crawford’s best friend was Hedda Hopper. Number two, Joan Crawford was never officially diagnosed with cancer. Number three, Joan Crawford learned the most about acting from Lon Chaney. Got him. Okay, now, as you’re listening to our story today, see if you can figure out which one of those is alive. And if you’re watching the video version on YouTube, you can see I’m holding up an envelope.

00:03:46:24 – 00:04:07:11
Dan LeFebvre
And this has the answer inside. So we’ll open this at the end of the episode to see if you got it right. Okay. Now it’s time to connect with Scott Simon about the historical accuracy of feud.

00:04:07:14 – 00:04:31:01
Dan LeFebvre
Everyone knows TV shows can stretch the truth. However, since each show is different with the creative liberties that they take. I was like to start up top with an overall ballpark idea for how accurate something is. So with that in mind, if you were to give the first season of the TV show feud a letter grade for its historical accuracy, what would it get?

00:04:31:04 – 00:05:01:27
Scott Eyman
Well, it’s a it’s a network, a mini series, produced and directed by Ryan Murphy. So if you approach it with, with a certain, a certain, delicate, approach, c c minus and it’s subtle and some of the inaccuracies don’t matter. They’re irrelevant, essentially. So I’m not hung up on those other inaccuracies I think do matter.

00:05:02:00 – 00:05:31:21
Scott Eyman
For instance, and this doesn’t matter. This is an inaccuracy. That doesn’t matter when the show opens. She’s living in California in a vast Beverly Hills mansion, where everybody comes to visit her, you know, at an opera and or her, aide de camp. Mamacita, a German woman that for some odd reason. Crawford called Mamacita. Actually, she was living in New York, by 19.

00:05:31:24 – 00:05:54:26
Scott Eyman
She moved to New York in 1955 for her marriage or last marriage to Alfred Steele. They had a very nice, two story, apartment house across the street from the Frick Museum. And she was still in there, in 1960, and 62. She didn’t move until 1964, until several years after the film was made.

00:05:55:02 – 00:06:22:23
Scott Eyman
So she had an apartment in LA in a little building that Loretta Young owned. But, I mean, she didn’t she had sold the house in, in in Brentwood, I believe, in 1959 or 1960 and bailed. So that’s a small inaccuracy. That doesn’t matter. I understand it’s just easier rather than going having a logo, say New York, and then you have her, you know, fancy New York apartment and you’re cutting back and forth between now, like, just everybody now, like, okay, fine.

00:06:22:25 – 00:06:35:25
Scott Eyman
That’s a small inaccuracy. Other inaccuracies, bothered me a lot more than that, frankly. But we can get into that. We should, of course.

00:06:35:25 – 00:06:59:21
Dan LeFebvre
Of course. What? In the first episode of the series, we see Olivia de Havilland talking about the feud by saying this is a quote from the series. It says for nearly half a century, they hated each other and we love them for it. She’s speaking, of course, about Joan Crawford and Betty Davis, and the TV show is set mostly in the 1960s around the filming of the only movie that those two starred in together called Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?

00:06:59:23 – 00:07:23:08
Dan LeFebvre
So based on the Havilland’s quote and the fact that TV series takes place in the 1960s after both Crawford and Davis are already established stars, I got the impression that there had already been a feud going on long before the timeline of the TV series. So can you give me an overview of how and when The Few started between Joan Crawford and Betty Davis?

00:07:23:14 – 00:07:43:06
Scott Eyman
Well, feud is a good, awfully strong word. Actually, it’s not like a feud implies to me that that other person is in the forefront of your consciousness all the time, or almost all the time. And I’m sure, you know, decades went by when they really didn’t speak to each other that much because they weren’t really a part of each other’s life.

00:07:43:08 – 00:08:05:18
Scott Eyman
As far as I can tell, the animus, began in 1935 when Franchot Tone went over, left MGM, where he was having a torrid affair with, Joan Crawford to went over to, Warner Brothers to do a movie with Betty Davis called dangerous and Betty Davis stuff. And shot down was the most gorgeous thing she ever seen in her life.

00:08:05:21 – 00:08:29:19
Scott Eyman
And she made every effort possible, to, to seduce him. And he really wasn’t interested because he just wanted to get back to MGM and Joan Crawford, which didn’t, didn’t, endear him, to, to, to Betty Davis. And it didn’t endear Joan Crawford to Betty Davis either. But really, they weren’t in each other’s life.

00:08:29:20 – 00:09:00:08
Scott Eyman
They weren’t part of each other’s social circle at all. Until, Crawford came to Warner Brothers in 1944 after leading MGM. Basically her entire career picture career was at MGM from 1927, not 1925 to 1943. She was the MGM, and she only did a 1 or 2 loan out in all that time, and she left MGM in 1943 and sat around the house in Brentwood, for about a year.

00:09:00:09 – 00:09:29:27
Scott Eyman
But she said it was like three years. It wasn’t three years. It was more a year, more like a year. And, then, she signed with, Warner Brothers where Betty Davis was the Queen B Gurley. So I’m sure at that point Davis was looking over her shoulder, you know, at, at this, pretender to Earth row, because there was no one at Warner Brothers bigger than Betty Davis on the female side of the cat roster against, roster of actors.

00:09:30:00 – 00:10:04:04
Scott Eyman
But they again. Yeah, they didn’t they were really they didn’t play the same kinds of parts for the most part. I you could theoretically put Betty Davis in Mildred Pierce. You could theoretically cast her in Humoresque. But I think she’d fit better in Mildred Pierce than she would at Humoresque. Because Humoresque is is, the woman is a an alcoholic, the very highly sexed.

00:10:04:06 – 00:10:32:11
Scott Eyman
And Betty Davis didn’t really give off those vibes. You know, she always had a kind of Puritan thing because it was an authentic projection of her personality, even though she did drink. Obviously, they both drank, but they weren’t really up for the same parts. She might have turned down Mildred Pierce, so it’s possible that was passed, by her a Davis, and she might have turned it down.

00:10:32:13 – 00:10:54:14
Scott Eyman
But it was always kind of slotted for Crawford because they had signed her and they had to give her something. And that thing was that script was, hanging fire. You know, once they figured out how to do it, it wasn’t a terribly art picture shoot, but there were a lot of writers on that picture. They had north of six writers, eight writers.

00:10:54:18 – 00:11:22:08
Scott Eyman
It was a lot of different scripts floating around at that, and nobody was quite sure how to get past the ace office number one and, how much sex it could have. And it was Jerry Wald’s idea. Basically, he saw Double Indemnity one day and decided, a murder flashback. Murder flashback because there, you know, murder in the book.

00:11:22:10 – 00:11:41:27
Scott Eyman
And the book is told, not told in flashback form either. But he thought the secret to Double Indemnity was a murder. Be the flashback. And, so that’s Jerry Wald injected that into Mildred Pierce, and nobody was sure it was going to work or not. But Wald was the was the producer of the picture, and they let him run with the ball.

00:11:42:00 – 00:12:11:14
Scott Eyman
And it turned out to be. Yeah. The as Crawford, and James McCain, the author of Mildred Pierce aided edit that aided the murder. And the only thing Crawford told of what we tried it without the murder, but the murder kind of tied it all together, which was true. The murder does tie it all together. So a long answer, a short question, admittedly, but, they, they kind of regarded each other warily from opposing corners of the ring.

00:12:11:17 – 00:12:37:14
Scott Eyman
You know, at Warner Brothers, because basically they were different kinds of actresses. Crawford at a sexual component that Davis had less of. I think it’s fair to say Davis was regarded as the superior actress. I think it’s fair to say, but they they weren’t really the they didn’t they weren’t developing the same kind of scripts for both women by any stretch of the imagination.

00:12:37:16 – 00:12:49:21
Dan LeFebvre
And you mentioned, you know, maybe feud is a strong word to use. Would you go the other way and say that at any point where they friendly with each other, or were they just kind of professional rivals? Almost.

00:12:49:24 – 00:13:20:29
Scott Eyman
No, they were never friends. They were never. Crawford had, actress friends. She was very close with Barbara Stanwyck, for instance. She was very close with Virginia Gray. Myrna Loy was a friend for, almost 50 years. She had a lot of friendships with actresses on her level or close to her level. But, no, she and she and Crawford would never friendly.

00:13:21:01 – 00:13:49:18
Scott Eyman
As Robert Aldrich says. I quote him in the book. He says, I think it would be fair to say they detested each other, but they were actually completely professional, which is true, which is one of the big, inaccurate things about the TV show. They make it sound like it was like Ali versus Frazier in the third fight, and they just went to their opposing quarters, and they came out trying to kill each other.

00:13:49:20 – 00:14:19:13
Scott Eyman
And it really wasn’t like that. Not even close. And the reason it wasn’t like that is because Robert Aldrich had $900,000 to make that movie all in, that’s all in. And the movie runs two hours and ten minutes, and they had a six week shooting schedule. So work the work, the logistics out. There was no time for an afternoon spent haggling over what that bitch said to me, or what the other bet that wasn’t going to happen.

00:14:19:16 – 00:14:43:00
Scott Eyman
This was a sprint. It wasn’t a straw. The only way to get that picture made was, was absolutely everybody showing up, knowing their lines. Rehearse it once, rehearse it twice, shoot it. Move on. Otherwise, you weren’t gonna get the picture done in six weeks and there was no more money. There was no more money. There was no overage because it was independently financed.

00:14:43:03 – 00:14:55:27
Scott Eyman
It wasn’t financed by Jack Warner, was financed by, Ken Hyman. $900,000. And that was all in. And if Robert, if they had gone over budget, Aldrich would have had to come up with the extra money.

00:14:56:00 – 00:14:58:24
Dan LeFebvre
Which isn’t likely to do or want to do.

00:14:58:24 – 00:15:13:22
Scott Eyman
Fisher wanted to do it. He certainly didn’t want it. That wasn’t the business. It was that he would do that. He did do that. A fair number of occasions. A lot of the pictures he made, both in the latter part of the 50s, in the 60s, things like The Big Knife and Attack essentially were financed by Robert Aldrich.

00:15:13:24 – 00:15:41:16
Scott Eyman
He’d get an advance from distributor, he contribute, a portion of the budget out of his, his own coffers. But his own coffers came and went. You know, it’s when you’re an independent, filmmaker like that. Not everything makes money. And, you know, when you when you when you’re when you’re when your wallet is low, there’s it’s not like you could just go to, you know, your rich uncle, and get a, get a couple hundred thousand dollars to tide you over.

00:15:41:19 – 00:16:05:29
Dan LeFebvre
True. What you may have already answered my next question, but in episode two, when we start to see the filming underway, according to the series, it. It doesn’t take long to realize that Joan Crawford and Betty Davis are just a nightmare to work with. They’re constantly trying to undermine each other. Even force the hand of, You mentioned Robert Aldrich, the director, to fire a younger actress after she makes Joan feel old.

00:16:06:01 – 00:16:20:24
Dan LeFebvre
Was Baby Jane a particularly hostile set like we see in the series? Was it because Betty and Joan were working together? That seems to be what the series is implying. Or did the real Joan Crawford have a history of being difficult to work with even without Betty Davis there?

00:16:20:26 – 00:16:43:01
Scott Eyman
No. Well, the the dynamic Crawford wanted a happy set always. And that’s why she had this routine of on the first day of the picture, she would greet everybody on the crew personally, work under the picture, tell them she looked forward to working with them during the shoot. She would give people presents. Certainly the director, occasionally the cameraman.

00:16:43:01 – 00:17:04:23
Scott Eyman
She would also get presents to. She wanted a happy set. Now, there might have been an element of calculation in some of this. Certainly. But she wanted everybody, on her side, and she was willing to do what, you know, to act like, a generous, spirited granddaughter in order to get that the vibe. Got the vibe.

00:17:04:23 – 00:17:32:26
Scott Eyman
She wasn’t going. She didn’t like a hostile set. She didn’t function well in hostility. She had enough of that in her early life. She had a wretched, wretched childhood. And. And she didn’t go out of her way looking for contention, looking for aggravation. Betty Davis was stimulated by aggravation. Betty Day, always Betty Davis was stimulated by confrontation. She enjoyed it.

00:17:32:29 – 00:17:57:25
Scott Eyman
She had a gladiatorial frame of mind. I was friends with Lindsay Anderson, who directed her in Whales of August, which was she did with Lillian Gish. Was Lillian Gish last picture. And, I talked to Lindsay about the experience of working with her. And Lillian Gish at this point was 92 or 93 years old, literally. She was over 90, and she showed up every day with her lines.

00:17:57:27 – 00:18:24:22
Scott Eyman
And except for one day when she came on the set at 8 a.m. and she didn’t know where she was, and, and Lindsay thought the film was about to collapse because there’s no way to cut around it. This is the gamble you take with a very elderly performer, you know, and if suddenly they can’t remember their dialog, well, you can cover that with, cue cards, you know, but with an actress who doesn’t know where she is.

00:18:24:25 – 00:18:52:21
Scott Eyman
But, yeah, it was panic time, but, but, but 75, 90 minutes later, she was fine. She realized she was making the movie. She asked, and she remembered her dialog was the only time she had a memory slip on the picture. But Davis was very volatile and very angry and very hostile. Sluggish for no reason. Because, as Lindsay would said, Lillian was a sweet old lady.

00:18:52:24 – 00:19:17:19
Scott Eyman
She never had a bad word to say about anybody, but that just made Davis all the more angry, really, because she wanted someone to push back against, you know? And Gish wasn’t going to fight. She needed every ounce of her energy to get through the day. When you’re 93 and you’re making a movie, and he and Lizzie said, I began to think that Betty was insane.

00:19:17:25 – 00:19:43:20
Scott Eyman
Literally crazy. Now this is down the road from Baby Jane. This is in, the late 80s, 1986, 1987. But it was a harrowing experience for Lindsay because he didn’t expect this, because he worshiped Betty Davis. He never he liked silent movies, but he grew up watching Betty Davis in 30s and 40s in England. And, he’d always loved her.

00:19:43:23 – 00:20:03:28
Scott Eyman
And here she was, a bitch on wheels. And he wasn’t prepared for that. Well, if he talked to some people from Hollywood, he would have been more prepared for it because she could make you. It was glad it. Or it could be glad it’s real. With Betty Davis. So, as Aldrich said, it’s fair to say they detested each other.

00:20:04:05 – 00:20:26:16
Scott Eyman
But there was never a harsh word spoken because a there wasn’t time. And B and if you look at the picture, Crawford doesn’t have that much to do. She’s up in the room in the second floor. It’s basically big baby Jane’s movie. It’s Betty Davis, this movie. She’s got most of the screen time. She’s got most of the movement.

00:20:26:16 – 00:20:56:23
Scott Eyman
The character Crawford never leaves the house until the last scene in the picture, baby Jane is got. She’s doing banking. She’s messing around with Victor Buono, who hates his mother. You know, there’s she’s actually interacting with other people. Crawford character does interact with anybody except her sister, Baby Jane. So Crawford is basically working in one room for the production, whereas Baby Jane is out and about and she’s shopping.

00:20:56:23 – 00:21:19:24
Scott Eyman
We see her going in the car. That’s old car. They haven’t, but she’s much more, everything happens because of Baby Jane and that sense she’s not only the title character, she’s the fulcrum of the movie. She’s the she’s she’s the movement of the movie. Everything happens because of Jane Hudson. And not because of anything. The Crawford character does.

00:21:19:28 – 00:21:40:18
Scott Eyman
The Crawford character is completely reactive, completely reactive. So that’s a but but she knew that going in. And another thing is, is that the idea of the two of them doing a movie together was Crawford’s idea. Crawford and Aldrich had done a film before. Autumn leaves, a very good movie, by the way.

00:21:40:20 – 00:22:07:02
Scott Eyman
And at some point between Autumn Leaves and Baby Jane and six years, I believe, 6 or 7 years between the two pictures, she had mentioned to Betty Davis somehow I don’t know what the where they were, but Aldrich said the you know, his letter to Betty Davis sending her the novel A Baby Jane. This is in Aldrich’s papers, which is where most of my information came from.

00:22:07:02 – 00:22:28:06
Scott Eyman
The Robert Aldrich a collection at UCLA. He mentions that Betty Davis had mentioned to you, Davis, I mean, that Crawford had mentioned to, Davis at some point in the future that they should do a movie together. And it got Aldrich thinking, and he said, I think I’ve got the property. And he sent her a copy of the novel.

00:22:28:06 – 00:23:04:20
Scott Eyman
Script had been written yet, and he wanted to gauge your interest in the story. So he sent her a copy of a cover letter and a copy of The End. Farrell mobile. And her agent Davis had her agent write back inquiring about money and billing. And, you know, the negotiations started. Now, at this point, Davis is going into, night of the Iguana on Broadway playing Maxine, which is alluded to in the first hour to show, not one of her finest hours.

00:23:04:23 – 00:23:31:01
Scott Eyman
And, she’s working. But the reviews for this show and her weren’t great. Not that she cared, and, but basically she had, I think, a six month contract or a run of the play contract that she got out of it after six months because Tennessee Williams wasn’t happy with the show and the performance, and she wasn’t happy with the play and whatever.

00:23:31:04 – 00:24:03:09
Scott Eyman
So at that point, when she leaves night of the iguana, she’s available. And the doors were not being beaten down for her or for Crawford. Neither one of them was getting any work in movies at at all. Crawford had made a movie since 1959, and we’re talking 1961 here, 1960 or 61 at this point. And nobody’s beating down her door and her husband has died, and she’s sitting alone in her huge apartment in New York City, twiddling your thumbs, wishing the phone would ring.

00:24:03:12 – 00:24:29:02
Scott Eyman
And the phone’s not ringing. But Aldrich was very much in the game that had a successful run with Autumn leaves, and, she had mentioned him that she thought she and Betty Davis should make a movie. Okay, so it got Aldrich thinking. He sends the book to Betty Davis, and the dance begins and they start talking contracts. And that goes on for six months while the script’s being written, basically.

00:24:29:04 – 00:24:52:18
Scott Eyman
And, the show moves and but he can’t get it financed. Nobody wants to finance that one because they’re both both Davis and Crawford regarded as washed up. Nobody wanted to put up the money, so he went shopping for independent money, and he got Ken Hyman to, put up $900,000. And Jack Warner agreed to distribute the film on a straight percentage basis.

00:24:52:21 – 00:25:12:04
Scott Eyman
Just 30% off the top. Okay. I’m sure Warner didn’t think much was going to happen, but he didn’t have any money involved in it. So what did he care if it did? It did if it did $800,000, we get 30% of $800,000 or whatever. So that’s the way the picture went forward. So it was done on a shoestring.

00:25:12:04 – 00:25:36:16
Scott Eyman
What amounted to a shoestring, and there was some haggling over, but there was some haggling over percentages. There was haggling over billing. Davis got top billing, I believe I don’t have I don’t have my book in front of me. I believe Crawford got a slightly higher percentage of the profits because Davis got top billing. But that was it.

00:25:36:16 – 00:25:58:18
Scott Eyman
In the end, the film was shot basically on time. I think they went three days over schedule or something like that, but it had to be shot on time because there was no extra money. And it was not, as Aldrich said, they detested each other, but they were absolutely professional. There was never the only incident that Aldrich alluded to involved.

00:25:58:21 – 00:26:20:02
Scott Eyman
There’s shooting a scene with the two of them, and Crawford had a cold and they’re haggling, and there was some problem with the lighting. So it was going to take 20 minutes or half an hour or so, Crawford said. Would you mind if I go to my dressing room? And Aldrich said, no, of course. And Davis said, well, you’d think we’d all be professionals by now.

00:26:20:04 – 00:26:37:01
Scott Eyman
That was it. And Crawford just looked at her and got up and went to her dressing room, and when they were, the problem was solved. They called her, and she came right back out and they went into the scene, you know. But that was actually that was Aldrich says. That was the only actual unpleasantness on the picture, that one incident, you’d think we’d all be pros by now.

00:26:37:07 – 00:26:38:20
Scott Eyman
That was it.

00:26:38:22 – 00:26:46:10
Dan LeFebvre
It sounds like, Betty Davis just kind of trying to push a button there cause some drama, if that’s something that she was feeds on.

00:26:46:13 – 00:26:57:13
Scott Eyman
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. That was her M.O.. And Crawford wouldn’t be goaded. She is. Wouldn’t be that bigoted because a she wanted the picture.

00:26:57:16 – 00:27:25:21
Scott Eyman
She just desperately needed to work. She she was okay about money at that point. It wasn’t about money. It was about the work. She was desperate to work. And because she’d been working since she was 13 years old, literally. And I once their mother, you know, whether it was cookie in a, you know, in a school or a chorus girl for the Schubert’s and Broadway or at MGM, she was a worker worker.

00:27:25:21 – 00:27:48:21
Scott Eyman
B that was how she defined herself. The movie stardom was kind of an accident because she never dreamt she could ever achieve that. I don’t think that was a a wild, you know, something? You wake up, you lure yourself to sleep at night thinking a buck wouldn’t be wonderful to be a big movie star when you rub dirt or in Kansas and and and Texas, good God.

00:27:48:27 – 00:28:16:02
Scott Eyman
You know, and Oklahoma or. So it was it, you know, stardom was something it was hard for her to grasp, but hard for her to accept. Whereas Davis was always going to be an actress, she always going to be an actress. I think in her own mind, stardom was always a distinct possibility. But no, because her goal was to be the the very best, the very top of the League of the elite.

00:28:16:04 – 00:28:29:02
Scott Eyman
And whereas Crawford’s goal was survival. Stardom was stardom was accidental in her mind. And and she never felt.

00:28:29:04 – 00:28:50:23
Scott Eyman
She said the person who taught her the most about acting was Lon Chaney. She made one picture at lunch in 1927 called The Unknown, and it’s a remarkably good movie. And you really. But she said, is total concentration. Nothing interfered with his concentration when he was working. There was nothing else. World War Three could have broken out.

00:28:50:23 – 00:29:18:12
Scott Eyman
World War Two could have broken out. And he would have continued with his take with the take. You know, he just he was totally, focused on being an actor, acting that scene, communicating the character’s emotions to the audience. And that’s where Crawford got her M.O. as an actress from Lon Chaney and and, but stardom, that was a role as a crazy roll the dice.

00:29:18:15 – 00:29:26:16
Scott Eyman
And given her background and her lack of education, why would she think that? Why would you think that was something attainable? No.

00:29:26:19 – 00:29:42:21
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. No, that makes sense. It, a dream perhaps, but sometime, I guess it sounds like she had imposter syndrome. Like she would never believe that she was the star, that a lot of other people saw her as being.

00:29:42:24 – 00:30:04:24
Scott Eyman
I think she settled into it after a time, but I never think. I don’t think she ever felt entirely secure with it because she grew up with nothing. When you grow up with nothing in the back of your mind, there’s always the possibility that nothing can come back, not back knocking at your door. You know, catastrophe is always a possibility.

00:30:04:26 – 00:30:08:09
Scott Eyman
And,

00:30:08:12 – 00:30:34:07
Scott Eyman
So when things went south, as they tended to do for actresses in that era, because there was nothing but the movies, really, television was in its infancy and it was a lower form of showbusiness life. And movie stars generally didn’t do TV, you know, in the 50s it just wasn’t done. A number of them tried it. Irene Dunne at a, show that didn’t work.

00:30:34:14 – 00:31:03:28
Scott Eyman
Stanwyck had a show that didn’t work. Then in the 60s, she had The Big Valley, which kind of worked. It’s not a great show, but it was offered, I don’t know, four years, maybe five years. Okay. But for that generation of actors and actresses, you worked. You didn’t just sit around the house and watch the flowers grow in the garden, in the backyard in Beverly Hills, you know, because they were all almost all of them came from nothing came from blue collar backgrounds.

00:31:04:00 – 00:31:36:22
Scott Eyman
Or if you weren’t working, you weren’t earning. And if you were earning, next month’s groceries were going to be a problem. So they believed in work. But on the other hand, TV was so dumb down market in the 50s, you know, nobody really took it seriously. People who succeeded in television were often people who had failed in the movies, like Milton Berle, you know, who was huge in television in the 50s and, and people like that, or Red Skelton, who had worn out his welcome in the movies, and he became a big star in TV.

00:31:36:25 – 00:32:08:05
Scott Eyman
But he downshift. It was sense of downshifting. They were still good money, but it wasn’t the same prestige. So and especially for a Crawfords born in 1905. So, in the she’s when she does Autumn leaves for Aldrich, she’s 51, 50 or 51 when she’s doing Baby Jane, she’s 57, 58, and she looks older than 57 or 58 because she’s made up to look on the 50 certificate.

00:32:08:07 – 00:32:26:04
Scott Eyman
You know, her hair’s a messy. She’s not she’s not actually not she’s not. They’re dressed. They didn’t dress them up. They’re making them look as horrible as possible to emphasize the squalor they’re living, the emotional squalor as well as the impending physical squalor.

00:32:26:06 – 00:32:44:26
Dan LeFebvre
Well, I’d like to ask about another side of Joan Crawford, because in the TV series, in episode three, we see Joan Crawford’s personal life a little bit more. When we see her twin daughters, Kathy and Cindy, they’re having dinner with their mom. And then, you know, Joan seems to be spending time with them. But we also hear a mention of another daughter named Christina, who is opening in a play.

00:32:44:29 – 00:33:05:21
Dan LeFebvre
We never see Christina in the episode, but John’s made you mention her before. Mamacita gives Joan and a card to mail to Christina, and for a moment she almost refuses to sign the card, almost refusing to give any words of encouragement for Christina, which seems to be pretty a stark contrast to her talking to her twin daughters for dinner.

00:33:05:21 – 00:33:10:16
Dan LeFebvre
So can you explain what Joan Crawford was like as a mother to her children?

00:33:10:18 – 00:33:14:07
Scott Eyman
It depends on which of the children you ask.

00:33:14:10 – 00:33:18:06
Dan LeFebvre
I mean, that’s fair. It seems like there’s this contrast even in that scene. I mean, that they’re one.

00:33:18:09 – 00:33:55:05
Scott Eyman
That’s lit, that that’s actually accurate. She adopted four children. The twins, and Christina and, a boy, they were four, she batted 500. The boy turned out to have a lot of problems with the law. Was arrested many times. Christina and Joan, it’s fair to say there was a, they never got along or they did get along, but not for very long.

00:33:55:12 – 00:34:27:17
Scott Eyman
It was constant grinding gears, constant grinding of gears. Christina, of course, wrote Mommie Dearest after her mother died, after Joan died, and the twins, said none of that happened. It was nothing that Christina describe, or very little that Christina described actually happened. There were no beatings at Saratoga there. But Christina insisted this was God’s honest truth.

00:34:27:19 – 00:34:56:10
Scott Eyman
Well, you can read my book. But you, she and Christina, even when Christina was a teenager, it was a constant thing, you know, they just didn’t get along. And whereas the twins were, she always basically had a good relationship with them. And in her will, Joan disinherited Christina and the boy, whereas the twins were included in her in her estate.

00:34:56:12 – 00:35:18:12
Scott Eyman
So there are various reasons for the, for the, imbalance between them. But, and Crawford talked about that. It even got into the print when they were, when Crawford was alive, Christina would give an interview blasting her mother, and then the reporters would go over to Crawford, and Crawford would give an interview about her difficulties with Christina.

00:35:18:14 – 00:35:36:20
Scott Eyman
It was just one of these kind of soap opera ish, thing where two people just really couldn’t get along, you know, and, and, as I write in the book, you know, five under is a pretty good average for baseball. It’s not too good with Joan.

00:35:36:22 – 00:35:56:26
Scott Eyman
But it does happen. You know, it does happen. But, the twins are both gone now. They died in the last, 6 or 7 years. But, in her will, Crawford disinherited both the Christina and her son.

00:35:56:29 – 00:36:14:17
Dan LeFebvre
Wow. Yeah. It seems like there’s there is a contrast there. So. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense. The episode the or in the episode where we see that stark contrast of having dinner with, with the twins and then almost like refusing any sort of encouragement, it just seemed like, yeah, I was seeing the contrast in there.

00:36:14:17 – 00:36:23:29
Scott Eyman
So that’s an allusion, I’m sure, to the the ending. Mommie dearest, which everybody you know is in the back of her mind when it comes to Joan Crawford, especially at that stage, your life.

00:36:24:01 – 00:36:40:08
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. Well, I think the episode is even called Mommie Dearest, so it definitely alludes to, because she writes that in the card, I think is what she ended up writing to Christina, in which I’m sure the specifics of that part of it was probably fictionalized, but just the concept getting across. It sounds like was pretty, pretty spot on.

00:36:40:10 – 00:37:07:13
Dan LeFebvre
We’re up to episode four of the TV series now. The filming of Baby Jane is completed, but it’s not released yet and no one really expects it to be good. Meanwhile, Joan Crawford and Betty Davis both seem shocked that they’re not getting offers since they thought Baby Jane would immediately rekindle their careers. As I was watching this episode, my takeaway wasn’t so much that their struggles in finding work had anything to do with Baby Jane since that hadn’t been released yet.

00:37:07:15 – 00:37:22:18
Dan LeFebvre
But the reason Joan and Betty weren’t getting offers seems to be because that’s how it was in the 1960s for older actresses in Hollywood. Is the series correct a show? It’s difficult to find parts, even for someone of Crawford’s career, simply because of her age and gender.

00:37:22:21 – 00:37:44:12
Scott Eyman
See? See, the difference between then and now is an actress in there? Well, I mean, to Susan Sarandon and Jessica Lange, we’re playing Betty and Joan. They’re six two in their 60s. They work all the time because there’s different strategies of show business now. But in the period we’re talking about, there was the movies or there was. That was it.

00:37:44:17 – 00:38:13:15
Scott Eyman
There wasn’t anything else. Now you’ve got streaming, you’ve got cable, there’s all these different things and they’re all needing product. And so there’s a lot more work for actresses after they’re no longer leading ladies. 28 to 35, shall we say. You know, where they’re playing. Women who don’t have necessarily families and two husbands or three husband.

00:38:13:17 – 00:38:39:20
Scott Eyman
There’s a lot more work now for actresses of a certain age than there was in the period that we’re talking about. That’s just the reality of it. And but there was no the not until the film broke and suddenly became a smash hit. And then suddenly everything changed. Suddenly the phone started ringing again. It must have been a wonderful, you know, and then and then Aldrich gets an offer from Fox to come over there and do our show.

00:38:39:20 – 00:39:16:17
Scott Eyman
Sweet Charlotte, you know, and do another Betty Davis Joan Crawford movie. And I’m sure he thought long and hard about. Long and hard about it and but and so the negotiations start again. And then the Oscar nominations come out for Baby Jane and Davis gets a nomination and Crawford does it. And then it gets interesting because, Crawford announces that she’ll be happy to accept the award for anybody that can’t make it to the ceremony.

00:39:16:19 – 00:39:35:07
Scott Eyman
And because she’s a previous winner of the Best actress Oscar, of course, she always is asked to present, you know, as former, former, winners are if they’re not working and they can get there, they’re often asked to present an award to this year’s winner. So she was asked to present. So she said she’d be happy to present.

00:39:35:10 – 00:39:59:07
Scott Eyman
And she also be happy to accept the award for whoever won. Well, Davis is there, of course, hoping she’s going to win and she doesn’t win. And Bancroft wins for the miracle worker. And Crawford gets up and accepts that. And she reads Bancroft’s note of acceptance that Bancroft, etc.. In case you want.

00:39:59:10 – 00:40:33:03
Scott Eyman
And in the during the broadcast, Crawford had been holding court actually had a little bar open in the back of the stage. And there was Pepsi-Cola, of course, as well as vodka and bites and things to eat for people because you get hungry, because the show goes out for 3 or 4 hours as she well knew, and everything was very convivial and, and Davis took I’m sure she took it took and Bancroft winning as, untoward.

00:40:33:05 – 00:41:02:11
Scott Eyman
And she wasn’t thrilled about, Crawford being the belle of the ball backstage, either. And at that point, that’s when that was when the situation went to the third degree between the two. And Crawford seems to have been unaware of it until they got on the set of Hush Hush with Charlotte. But that was the point at which Davis really dug it and dug in and said, I got really angry.

00:41:02:13 – 00:41:08:19
Scott Eyman
And de Betty Davis angry was quite a sight. It was like Vesuvius, you know, just.

00:41:08:21 – 00:41:09:24
Dan LeFebvre
Something I want to see angry.

00:41:09:27 – 00:41:13:19
Scott Eyman
So you don’t want her coming at you? You really did want to know.

00:41:13:22 – 00:41:33:05
Dan LeFebvre
Well, we see that in, episode five. We see how that play out in the Academy Awards. And if we’re to believe the TV version, then Joan Crawford was the one that kind of went around and called the nominees to see if, you know, she could accept on their behalf. And she kind of seems to be the one driving a lot of that.

00:41:33:05 – 00:41:43:26
Dan LeFebvre
Was, was she actually driving a lot of that, or was that just because she was, a former winner then she can present and since she’s already going to be there, or was she kind of driving it?

00:41:43:28 – 00:41:46:23
Scott Eyman
I think she was probably driving.

00:41:46:25 – 00:41:48:22
Dan LeFebvre
Okay, okay.

00:41:48:24 – 00:41:54:20
Scott Eyman
I can’t I can’t speak with 100% certitude, but I wouldn’t be surprised.

00:41:54:22 – 00:41:58:19
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. So it she knew what was going on there pretty much.

00:41:58:22 – 00:42:04:29
Scott Eyman
Well, she was not averse to getting a little time in front of the camera, let’s put it that way.

00:42:05:02 – 00:42:07:18
Dan LeFebvre
I mean, that makes sense. She’s an actress, too.

00:42:07:21 – 00:42:32:08
Scott Eyman
And the Academy Awards, everybody watched the Academy Awards in that era. You know, everybody watched the Oscars because everybody went to the movies. Now, not that many people go to the movies, and not that many people watch the Oscars, because not that many people see the movies that are being nominated. So it’s an entirely different moviegoing environment now than it was in 1963, when they’re giving up the Oscars for the 1962 films.

00:42:32:11 – 00:42:44:06
Scott Eyman
But in that era, everybody watch the Oscars until you got sleepy, you know? And and round about 10:00, America went to bed, but they were still giving out the awards.

00:42:44:09 – 00:43:03:08
Dan LeFebvre
So it sounds like it may have been more, that that more about the awards themselves. Not necessarily as much. I mean, the TV show it obviously plays up on. She’s doing this because she knows Betty Davis is going to hate this. Right? That’s the reason she’s doing it more than she wants, you know, to be on camera.

00:43:03:10 – 00:43:23:19
Scott Eyman
I can’t speak to her, her or her, her intent, you know, on the other hand, I mean, there was no guarantee she was Betty Davis going to lose. She could have won. Maybe she was number eight. She lost to Anne Bancroft by three votes. Who knows? You know, they don’t announce the vote of, Bancroft did give a great performance.

00:43:23:25 – 00:43:53:13
Scott Eyman
There’s no question about that. Hollywood loves a comeback story. But Bancroft is great in The Miracle Worker. She was always great. She was a wonderful actors. But, Davis took it personally, took as a personal affront, and, probably took it to her grave. There’s a a quote from Robert Aldrich I found. He said, Joan Crawford, Woody could be angry for 2 or 3 days.

00:43:53:15 – 00:44:14:02
Scott Eyman
Eddie Davis would be angry forever. She’d share a grudge and she yelled out it was forever. Crawford would get over it, but Davis would not get over it. And Davis never did get over it. She always thought that that Crawford somehow didn’t ace her out of the Oscar.

00:44:14:04 – 00:44:34:18
Scott Eyman
But shoehorned her way in front of the camera. That was it. That was that was what really pissed off Davis. That she was up there getting some of Anne Bancroft, glory by accepting the award. Even nobody. No, nobody thinks of it that way. But for Davis, it seemed that way.

00:44:34:20 – 00:44:53:10
Dan LeFebvre
Well, there is a brief line of dialog in episode six where Betty Davis mentions Anne Bancroft probably hasn’t even laid eyes on her Oscar since Joan accepted it. Do we know if Joan Crawford kept the award like the TV show seems to imply? Or did she actually give Bancroft or her Oscar? I would assume.

00:44:53:12 – 00:45:13:20
Scott Eyman
She gave Bancroft her Oscar this picture Bancroft hugging her Oscar in her apartment in New York City. She was she was married to Mel Brooks by that time. And they were living in an apartment. Not a terribly fancy apartment at that point, because neither one of them really made much money at that point. Yeah, but she got her Oscar in is remember, Crawford lived in New York.

00:45:13:23 – 00:45:25:09
Scott Eyman
She was going to leave. She was going to leave after the ceremony and go back to her house in her apartment in New York. So it was perfectly normal for her to get it to to Bancroft a couple days later.

00:45:25:12 – 00:45:30:00
Dan LeFebvre
Make sense? Yeah, I do feel like that was. No, that’s not true. But that seems a little far.

00:45:30:06 – 00:45:32:06
Scott Eyman
That would be pathological behavior.

00:45:32:09 – 00:45:54:07
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. Well, you mentioned the movie before, and in episode six, director Robert Aldrich seems it’s time to recapture the success of Baby Jane. And this time it’s a film called hush, Hush, cousin Charlotte brings back Joan Crawford and Betty Davis, and this movie set doesn’t really seem to be any better than what we saw with Baby Jane. Joan is constantly drinking.

00:45:54:07 – 00:46:00:18
Dan LeFebvre
There are strong hints that Betty Davis and the director are sleeping together, which only makes Joan even more angry with that situation.

00:46:00:21 – 00:46:02:02
Scott Eyman
Once sleeping together.

00:46:02:04 – 00:46:03:03
Dan LeFebvre
They weren’t sleeping together.

00:46:03:03 – 00:46:23:18
Scott Eyman
Aldrich was not. Aldrich was not attracted to 60 year old women. No, he wasn’t a he didn’t make a habit out of sleeping with his late. Actually, Alfred Molina is very good in that in this film he actually gets a sense of Aldrich across. He, he’s bulked up. I think he’s padded. But he’s got his tie exactly the way Aldrich wore his tie.

00:46:23:21 – 00:46:41:05
Scott Eyman
You know, you didn’t, it it was just kind of crossed with with the thing, and halfway down his chest, was exactly how Aldrich was, you know, with an open shirt. That’s how Aldrich dressed. He never had it. Were in their era, a lot of directors wore, you know, a coat and tie when they’re working. Orders didn’t do that.

00:46:41:07 – 00:47:10:21
Scott Eyman
He was very much more casual dungarees and stuff. But, Molina, actually, I think did get, he must have talked to somebody or looked at stills of Aldrich and tried to replicate what he was actually like because Ortiz was a big split ball player. You know, he was a burly guy, came from money. The Rockefeller had branch, the Rockefeller estate, wanted to he didn’t share their politics and didn’t care about their money.

00:47:10:24 – 00:47:19:09
Scott Eyman
So he went out on his own, became a really, really fine director. But he was a he was a born nonconformist, ordered.

00:47:19:11 – 00:47:44:01
Dan LeFebvre
For the believe, the TV show. And in that episode, the impression I got for Joan Crawford on the set of Cousin Charlotte was that she basically seemed like she hated being there, but she’s also a workaholic, and so she kind of seemed to rely on alcohol to help her get through it. Would you agree with the TV shows depiction of the way it portrays Joan Crawford doing her shows?

00:47:44:03 – 00:47:45:07
Dan LeFebvre
Because it’s early.

00:47:45:09 – 00:48:09:00
Scott Eyman
I talked to a number of people who work with Joan Crawford. They’re still a lot. Well, 3 or 4, and they all say the same thing. She didn’t drink. She sipped. She was never drunk. And David Ladd, Alan Ladd, son, who worked with her. The last thing she did, actually, for television. Last thing she did forever in 1971 or 2.

00:48:09:02 – 00:48:32:14
Scott Eyman
He said a lot of the studio people, people from the studio era did that. They would sip vodka or whiskey, whatever it was through the day. They were never drunk. He said. Including my father. He said they didn’t get drunk, but they weren’t. But but it was it was their it was a way of medicating themselves, of their anxiety, of professional anxiety.

00:48:32:16 – 00:48:53:03
Scott Eyman
And they could and they had been doing it long enough so that they, they could kind of knew what their, capacity was, and they wouldn’t go beyond a certain point because it would be unprofessional if at 3:00 in the afternoon, you suddenly can’t get up out of your chair to do it because, you know, and I never got to that point, she said.

00:48:53:03 – 00:49:13:11
Scott Eyman
She sipped. She didn’t guzzle at all. She was she was. She appeared sober, even if she was sipping like it was always vodka. So I guess that that’s accurate in terms of the film. But she wasn’t drunk working. She wasn’t working.

00:49:13:14 – 00:49:18:29
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. The impression I get is that she was drinking all the time, but not necessarily not just sipping. It seemed like she was.

00:49:18:29 – 00:49:19:17
Scott Eyman
No, I know.

00:49:19:18 – 00:49:20:09
Dan LeFebvre
Full on drinking.

00:49:20:16 – 00:49:50:18
Scott Eyman
It was not, a blackout drunk. Because who’s going to hire a blackout drunk? Really? Because we’re gets around fast. If you’ve got a drug problem or if you’re, like, drunk on the set, that’s really tough to get a past, you know, any time, any time, Errol Flynn got away with it some of the time because he, he was an alcoholic, not just sipping, I mean, either at as, after two in the afternoon, you didn’t get a lot of footage on Flynn.

00:49:50:21 – 00:50:14:17
Scott Eyman
Yeah, that was just the way it was. And everybody knew that. If you factored that into your day, there were maybe 5:00 scenes with Flynn. He weren’t going to be there. He was going to be in his dressing room sleeping. And I’m sure there probably were a couple other people like that, you know, but they didn’t work much, you know, and Flynn, they put up with Flynn because he was a huge, huge star.

00:50:14:20 – 00:50:22:16
Scott Eyman
You got to be a huge star. Guaranteed gold at the box office to get to for Dale. But for them to put up with that kind of behavior.

00:50:22:18 – 00:50:46:22
Dan LeFebvre
Well, speaking of not working in episode seven of the TV series, Joan Crawford seems kind of fed up with the Cousin Charlotte film. And after finding out that some of her lines are cut, she ends up in the hospital where she’s diagnosed with pneumonia, and this forces the film to a grinding halt. Production company 20th Century Fox doesn’t believe she’s actually sick, and they threatened to sue Crawford if an independent doctor determines that she’s not actually sick.

00:50:46:24 – 00:51:04:13
Dan LeFebvre
She’s just saying that she is, for the purposes of delaying the film. And of course, the series. In the series, the doctor determines that she’s healthy, but she still refuses to leave the hospital. So the studio fires her from the film and instead hires Olivia de Havilland to play Crawford’s role. Is that what really happened?

00:51:04:19 – 00:51:39:06
Scott Eyman
No. What happened? And this is again from the Robert Aldrich Papers, which has all the medical reports, her doctors reports from the hospital, etc., etc., etc.. Two things happened. Davis started sniping verbally at her, and Crawford got sick and she started calling in sick, which she never did in her career, ever. She always showed up, you know, MGM, if you had a major, massive coronary, you’d better show up.

00:51:39:06 – 00:51:59:13
Scott Eyman
I mean, they made it. There were some exceptions. There was a Judy Garland problems. You know, speaking of the kind of thing we were talking about a little bit ago, they put up with things from Judy Garland. But again, Judy was a huge, huge star. And also she was kind of grew up at MGM. So she was family in a way.

00:51:59:15 – 00:52:19:26
Scott Eyman
Crawford started went to the hospital. This is like the second week of the picture. They shot for a couple days in Louisiana for for the long shots of, because it takes place in the South. So they needed to get the location stuff out of the way. So they shot for a week or so in Louisiana, and that was okay.

00:52:19:28 – 00:52:46:03
Scott Eyman
And then they got back to Hollywood, and Crawford started calling in sick. She went to Cedars. She got a lot of doctors examinations. The reports are in the Robert Aldrich papers that I’ve gone through. Basically, she had a lung infection and her white blood cell count was sky high. So she wasn’t faking. She was sick. She got to the hospital.

00:52:46:03 – 00:53:13:11
Scott Eyman
She went back. They shot for a couple days. She felt sick again. Went back in the hospital. Just. This went on for some weeks. Davis was sniping at her, and it was partly, I’m sure, psychiatric psychological, partly physical. You know, but Davis had taken the whole Oscar thing as a personal insult and and and was make. Is that the way you’re going to do it?

00:53:13:14 – 00:53:37:12
Scott Eyman
Is that you’re good. That’s the way you’re gonna play the scene kind of thing. And and Crawford began to feel derailed. I think, whatever, increased sense of, security. She’d gotten from the success of Baby Jane dissipated. And then she got this lung thing and is old. Robert Aldrich says. Said you can’t fake a high blood, high white cell blood cell count.

00:53:37:15 – 00:53:56:01
Scott Eyman
I mean, that’s you can’t you could make some stuff that you’re not going to fake. White blood cell count. They thought she might have leukemia. So this went on for several weeks. She. She’d be there for a while, then she’d have to go back to hospital. They even put a, detective on her tail to see if she was faking.

00:53:56:03 – 00:54:23:09
Scott Eyman
And, the results of that were inconclusive. And ultimately, they had to make a decision. This is about, 4 to 5 weeks later where they’ve got maybe a half hour of film after four weeks, and they should be finished or more. And they didn’t have a lot of film, and they basically had to make up their mind as Fisher cut bait, but then they had to decision.

00:54:23:09 – 00:54:47:24
Scott Eyman
Okay, well, if we fire, if we let her go, who do we get? So, Joe Cotton, who was playing the male lead in the picture, said that Aldrich asked Vivien Leigh if she’d like to come and do part in Vivien Leigh wired back so I could just about stand to be in a Louisiana plantation with Joan Crawford, but not with Betty Davis.

00:54:47:27 – 00:54:51:24
Scott Eyman
So Vivien Leigh out of it. She to my God, that’s a.

00:54:51:27 – 00:54:53:00
Dan LeFebvre
Wonderful way to say no.

00:54:53:03 – 00:55:18:26
Scott Eyman
Yeah, exactly. And part of the problem was that, Davis had approval in her contract of her costar, which she had given, and she would have approved Vivien Leigh Aldrich wanted to get it to Katharine Hepburn and see if Katharine Hepburn would do it. Now, I don’t believe Katharine Hepburn would ever have done a movie. This movie, if you’ve seen the movie, this is not a movie Katharine Hepburn is going to do.

00:55:18:28 – 00:55:42:29
Scott Eyman
I mean, at one point, Bruce Dern’s head bounces rather jauntily down, up, down a long, winding staircase. That’s not a Katharine Hepburn picture. It’s it’s not. But Davis had approval and she didn’t want her to work opposite. So Hepburn’s out. Even if she wanted to do it, Ephron would. She wouldn’t accept her. So who will you accept?

00:55:43:01 – 00:56:09:09
Scott Eyman
She’d accept a lady to Harvard because they were friendly. So the Warner Brothers dealt then. So Aldrich gets on a plane to goes to Switzerland, where they have living at that point. And, basically they, he talks her to taking the picture as a favor to Betty. So that’s the scenario. Then they announce it. Once they’ve got to Havilland, they can let John go, they can say what she’s indisposed, etc., etc., etc..

00:56:09:11 – 00:56:31:15
Scott Eyman
And, John was, unhappy. I’m not sure why, because she hadn’t worked. She’d worked less than 50% of the days they were supposed to be working, you know, and they were basically they had a choice. I had to recast the part or cancel the picture. And if you cancel the picture, then you’re going to make an insurance claim, and then it gets into lawyers.

00:56:31:17 – 00:57:02:03
Scott Eyman
And three years later, the lawyers will still be haggling the reality of it. That’s what happens when you cancel a whole movie because of something. And she I mean, the white blood cell count was sky high, etc., etc.. So she felt, Crawford was upset and as I said, I think it was her upset was unjustified. The Fox put up with quite a bit a lot of absences, orders put up with quite a lot of absences.

00:57:02:05 – 00:57:24:21
Scott Eyman
They had a picture hanging there. They wanted to get it done, so they got it done. And it did okay. Didn’t do anywhere near as well as Baby Jane. It did about half as well as Baby Jane. It probably would have done a lot better if Crawford had been the picture, frankly. Although Aldrich said he actually thought the Avalon was better for the picture.

00:57:24:24 – 00:57:46:22
Scott Eyman
Because if you’ve seen the movie, to have one is the heavy had to have the Crawford characters the heavy and and because it’s a flip on baby Jane, whereas Baby Jane is the heavy in the original picture. But in this picture, Crawford was going to be the habit. So, he said, you don’t expect Italy to. Olivia de Havilland Melanie for Gone with the wind to be the heavy.

00:57:46:28 – 00:58:01:10
Scott Eyman
She didn’t play heavy, you know. So he thought in that sense that it worked better for the audience. But it didn’t work as well commercially because Olivia de Havilland didn’t have the same cachet the Joan Crawford did in concert with Bill gates.

00:58:01:13 – 00:58:10:16
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, that makes that makes a lot of sense. It sounds like there was a lot made up for the TV show. I appreciate you clarifying a lot of that.

00:58:10:18 – 00:58:33:06
Scott Eyman
Oh yeah, oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, that’s a it almost goes off the rails. I thought at that point because they’re just making they’re really kind of making wild, melodramatic. I think it was I mean, melodrama is bad enough when you’ve got private detectives tailing actresses around Beverly Hills to see if they’re going shopping at bullocks. Oh, it’s got this.

00:58:33:06 – 00:58:55:05
Scott Eyman
When they’re when they’re too sick to work, you know, that kind of, but but that’s, that’s the movie business. Yeah, it’s a little crazy, but Aldrich said, and then he put it, he said he thought it was. He liked the picture. He thought it worked out okay. It’s a good picture. It’s a surprise, considering the trouble they had on it.

00:58:55:07 – 00:59:10:21
Scott Eyman
It’s a good picture. It’s too. It’s two like that. But he said in retrospect, he thought it was a mistake for him to do it because he didn’t want to be Alfred Hitchcock. He didn’t want to come out of the same, same hole twice, he says. He wanted he wanted to make all different kinds of pictures, which he did.

00:59:10:26 – 00:59:34:26
Scott Eyman
If you look at his filmography, there’s Westerns, there’s there’s wars, there’s character pieces, there’s war films, there’s romances, there’s there’s melodrama, a lot of melodramas. He really did direct every kind of movie. And, he said he thought it was a mistake to do, a story that was so similar to Baby Jane. Right after Baby Jane.

00:59:34:28 – 00:59:58:18
Scott Eyman
He said I didn’t want to be Alfred Hitchcock. I never wanted to be Albert Hitchcock, who basically did one kind of movie over and over again, over. And I could see his point and his filmography, backs him up that he wasn’t that kind of director. Who wants it, who wants to type himself? There are directors who want to type themselves, you know, so the audience will know what they’re going to get, more or less, more or less when they go to see the movie.

00:59:58:21 – 01:00:20:20
Scott Eyman
That can be a commercial advantage. But there are directors who want to do all sorts of different stuff and reinvent themselves every, every, every picture, every other picture in Aldrich with one of those guys, all of the emotional temperature in Aldrich picture is always I, you know, it’s never casual, relaxed. Well, let’s let’s have a mint julep under the tree.

01:00:20:22 – 01:00:31:07
Scott Eyman
No, no, no, people are screaming. Hatchets are coming down. Cars are going off cliffs. The Aldrich love melodrama.

01:00:31:09 – 01:00:55:27
Dan LeFebvre
But, speaking of things a little different. And episode eight is the final episode of the series, and we see Joan making one more attempt at film in 1970. And this is a low budget horror movie called Trog that seems to be quite different than what Joan Crawford is used to doing. She also gets a book deal from Simon and Schuster, but then at the book signing, she realizes her public image isn’t really something that she likes.

01:00:55:27 – 01:01:05:07
Dan LeFebvre
And then with that, she calls her agent and tells him to stop submitting her for new roles. Is that really how Joan Crawford retired from the film business?

01:01:05:10 – 01:01:40:21
Scott Eyman
Yes and no. She had done films, but in between, Charlotte and Trog, she’d made, I think, 3 or 4 films. None of them I would recommend, particularly. But at that point, her need to work, was far greater than her. Her sense of discretion about her screen image or career. She just wanted to work. It was important to her to worry, to her identity that she work because she’d always been a worker.

01:01:40:26 – 01:02:12:28
Scott Eyman
From the time she was, like I said, 12 or 13 years old. They were they were, riffs on, riffs on Baby Jane, essentially. And Charlotte, you know, slasher movies on the low budget side. The advantage of that was she got a percentage, and a couple of them were quite lucrative at that point, money began to get more important because she had this gorgeous apartment across the street from the Frick two floor apartment.

01:02:13:00 – 01:02:33:28
Scott Eyman
But it was very expensive, and she’d had to move out. She had to cut thick cut bait because it was just eating up too much cash. And she moved out in 64, I believe, of the apartment and into a different building where she spent the rest of her life. It was a perfectly nice five room apartment.

01:02:33:28 – 01:03:11:03
Scott Eyman
Five, six room apartment. But compared to the place she’d been in and compared to the place in Brentwood that she’d sold in 1960, it was kind of claustrophobic. So there was a sense of diminishment, you know, professional diminishment as well as smaller space. And Mamacita was still with her, you know, a friend of Crawford’s that I interviewed for the book said, last time she saw John was at Christmas time in 1976, and Joan died in May of 77, and she came over to visit.

01:03:11:03 – 01:03:36:23
Scott Eyman
And Mamacita had gone back to Germany. And at Christmas time, at 76in. And then I knew that she was dying. The joke died because Mamacita would never have gone back to Germany unless it was over. You know, she did a couple films in between. Then she did Trog, which is an atrocity, an embarrassment. I talked to the girl who was in.

01:03:36:23 – 01:04:07:08
Scott Eyman
It’s got the second female lead in the picture. Marvelous woman, Jim Brady. And that was it. And there was a TV film after that TV episode after that, and then that was it. And about 72 or 73, she did an event in New York City, and there was some pictures taken of her and Rosalind Russell together. And Rosalind Russell was on massive a doses of steroids because she had terrible arthritis and she was puffy.

01:04:07:10 – 01:04:34:09
Scott Eyman
Rosalind Russell was very puffy. And between Russell and and the angle the photographs they picked really unflattering, shots. And Crawford looked at herself until, well, that’s what I look like. I’m not. They won’t see me anymore. So she never worked out that she’d go out. I mean, she didn’t become a hermit in her apartment. She would go out to dinner, her grandchildren would visit once a month.

01:04:34:11 – 01:04:57:17
Scott Eyman
Did the children of, one of the twins who lived, two hours away in Pennsylvania. The parents would drive them down to New York on Saturday to drop the kids off at Crawford’s apartment, and they’d go out at the parents would go out on the town, you know, go out to dinner and show, and Crawford had the grandchildren for the day.

01:04:57:19 – 01:05:20:17
Scott Eyman
This happened every month, you know, for years. And she was great with the kid, with the grandchildren. The grant the grandson assisted me with the book, gave me access to a lot of family material. But she did. And she saw friends, and she was there. 21 was your favorite restaurant in New York City. That was the place you could always find her on the second floor.

01:05:20:20 – 01:06:02:13
Scott Eyman
21. And she go. She went out to the theater. She went out to restaurants like, 21. But she pulled back from show business. She really did pull back show business. And, her world got smaller and smaller and smaller. And then she got sick. And because she was a kind of queasy, half assed Christian Scientist, not completely, but she always believed and, you know, cold, cold showers and, you know, buck up and healthy, healthy, healthy and had enormous animal energy, you know, very energetic, naturally.

01:06:02:15 – 01:06:24:16
Scott Eyman
Old age didn’t really sit well with her. She was 72 when she died, which is not old age as we think of it. 892 was old age, like Lillian Gish. That’s old. But she was 72. But the last five years where she slowed down, she did slow down considerably. And I think it was a low level depression, frankly, because she had to find herself as a worker.

01:06:24:16 – 01:06:49:19
Scott Eyman
She had to find herself as a as an actress, as a star, and suddenly that kind of drifted away. It just drifted away. And she didn’t really replace it with, you know, all stars have that problem. At a certain point, you know, nobody just start for in their 20s, like she was and also a star in their 70s, mid 70s.

01:06:49:19 – 01:07:15:11
Scott Eyman
I, you know, at some point things drop out, and, you know, you replace it with family, you replace it with other, other activities. Golf, palm Springs, you know, summers in Europe, you can replace it with all sorts of things. She didn’t have anything to replace it with, really. Her life just got smaller, and then she got sick and then she died.

01:07:15:13 – 01:07:28:23
Dan LeFebvre
Well, we do see hints of that in this series. At the very end, it it seems like her health kind of declines pretty quickly. She does seem to be a recluse. She’s diagnosed with with cancer. And then the TV show.

01:07:28:23 – 01:07:29:02
Scott Eyman
She was.

01:07:29:02 – 01:07:30:03
Dan LeFebvre
Never and.

01:07:30:05 – 01:07:31:23
Scott Eyman
She was never diagnosed.

01:07:31:25 – 01:07:33:09
Dan LeFebvre
She was never actually diagnosed. Okay.

01:07:33:09 – 01:07:36:13
Scott Eyman
Or actually diagnosed. There was serious weight loss.

01:07:36:16 – 01:07:36:27
Dan LeFebvre
Okay.

01:07:36:27 – 01:08:01:01
Scott Eyman
And she started, she was in terrible pain and there was a lot of weight loss. And she had back pain. Very bad back pain. So the general feeling within the family was that she had pancreatic cancer, but she wouldn’t go. She wouldn’t go because of the back. And also pancreatic cancer. By the time is diagnosed, it’s too late.

01:08:01:04 – 01:08:16:07
Scott Eyman
There’s there’s no treatment because the pancreas is inaccessible. Unlike other areas of the body where you get at it. The pancreas is inaccessible. So by the time it’s diagnosed, it’s already stage three.

01:08:16:09 – 01:08:38:24
Scott Eyman
But she never actually was diagnosed. She just lost weight. She had a hospital bed, moved into her bedroom in the apartment. She had some friends that would come in. She ordered takeout. The restaurant she liked would send over food for her, people that her friends within the building. The apartment building? She had a dog. She adored dog.

01:08:38:24 – 01:08:58:27
Scott Eyman
She always had a little dogs. Little dogs? She always had dogs. And she had a dog in this building. And the dog would get housebound apartment because she couldn’t get any exercise. So the neighbors were to take the take the dog and run the dog up and down the hallway to get exercise, you know, get a tired out of it because she couldn’t do it.

01:08:58:29 – 01:09:08:10
Scott Eyman
So it was kind of a, self-imposed sad ending, really very isolated set it.

01:09:08:12 – 01:09:20:27
Dan LeFebvre
One of the towards the end. You mentioned her friends, and towards the end, we we see her kind of hallucinating with some some friends around her table, like Hedda Hopper and Jack Warner and even Betty Davis.

01:09:20:27 – 01:09:22:12
Scott Eyman
She was never friends with Hopper.

01:09:22:19 – 01:09:31:08
Dan LeFebvre
That’s something that was going to be my question, because it seems like in the series, she’s like one of her best friends is Hedda Hopper. And she even helps, like writing things about Betty. And it just seems to fuel this feud.

01:09:31:08 – 01:09:55:00
Scott Eyman
You know, had a hopper, was was a bitch to everybody. Basically. It wasn’t personal with Crawford. But but Hopper, she were not friends. And you could. They’re. Hopper’s papers are voluminous. They’re at the academy, and there are interview transcripts of her interviewing Crawford. And there’s no intimacy whatever between the two of them. It’s very formal, very formal.

01:09:55:03 – 01:10:17:23
Scott Eyman
There’s no girlish give and take about, or there’s no social aspect. Whatever it’s. She’s asking Crawford. Hopper’s asking kind of professional questions, and Crawford is giving her professional answers. No intimacy, no insight. Really? No. They were never friends because,

01:10:17:25 – 01:10:27:26
Scott Eyman
Hopper was a tough, tough, broad. Really tough. She knew where the bodies were going to be buried that weren’t dead yet.

01:10:27:28 – 01:10:29:15
Dan LeFebvre
Well.

01:10:29:17 – 01:11:00:04
Scott Eyman
Really, I mean, he was tough, and not a lot of fun and not a lot of fun. Kind of mean spirited as a as a human being. She didn’t like Crawford. She thought she. Although they had similar backgrounds. Both came from nothing. Nothing. And were self and self invented, essentially. Well, Crawford gave her mother money, but she never gave her time.

01:11:00:07 – 01:11:23:04
Scott Eyman
She didn’t like her mother particularly. And chances are, she probably shouldn’t have liked your mother. Frankly, she kept her mother arm’s length. Her mother never wanted for anything. She had a house. She had all the money she needed. Crawford supported her. But Crawford would go 2 or 3 years without seeing they talk on the phone. So that was about it.

01:11:23:06 – 01:11:48:22
Scott Eyman
She wanted her mother at arm’s length. And there were good reasons for that. Hopper. Hopper. Kind of like the mother when she thought Crawford was a bad daughter. She didn’t know the whole story. I found a husband of Crawford’s mother that nobody knew existed. And there was with her for I think there were four that we know about.

01:11:48:25 – 01:11:52:00
Dan LeFebvre
It’s bad when you start to lose. Lose count of how many husbands there were.

01:11:52:00 – 01:12:00:29
Scott Eyman
Yeah, I think there were four, but it could have been three. But there was. There were other guys passing through to at the same time, uncles, you know, uncles.

01:12:01:01 – 01:12:01:23
Dan LeFebvre
These uncles.

01:12:01:24 – 01:12:02:12
Scott Eyman
They would be.

01:12:02:14 – 01:12:02:27
Dan LeFebvre
With.

01:12:03:00 – 01:12:24:09
Scott Eyman
Uncle. Yeah. Your uncle. Your new uncle. Yeah. That you know that. Yeah. She had a lot. So. Crawford. Now, Hopper. Hopper probably didn’t know about all that. You know, she just thought, well, Joan’s wealthy, she lives well, and her mother’s got a nice little house, but she never spent any time with her mother. That’s not nice. She’s a bad daughter.

01:12:24:11 – 01:12:41:06
Scott Eyman
She didn’t get the whole picture. And Crawford was certainly not going to try to justify herself that, she didn’t feel she had to justify herself to anybody. So they were never friends? No. That’s a pure invention on the part of of of, the filmmakers.

01:12:41:09 – 01:13:00:06
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Yeah. I mean, yeah, the friendship that they had and, and the TV show was the kind of friendship that. Yeah, she would have known that because they were talking like best friends. They were telling each other everything, so. No. Yeah. No. Okay. No. Makes a lot more sense. Thank you so much for coming on to chat about the TV show feud.

01:13:00:09 – 01:13:33:22
Dan LeFebvre
Since the show mostly focuses on the later years of Joan Crawford career, we didn’t have much time to talk about her earlier life and career, but that leads me right into my final question for you, because you have a brand new book out now called Joan Crawford A Woman’s Face. And having had the chance to read the advanced copy, there’s so many details and fascinating elements of Joan Crawford’s life and career that we’ll never get to cover on the podcast today, but I’ve got links in the show notes for everyone to get their own copy of your new book, and while they do that, can you share one of your favorite stories about Joan Crawford

01:13:33:22 – 01:13:36:15
Dan LeFebvre
that you came across while writing your book?

01:13:36:18 – 01:13:43:18
Scott Eyman
Well, I mentioned how the biggest influence on her as an actress was Lon Chaney.

01:13:43:21 – 01:14:06:20
Scott Eyman
And I found that very moving because this is a chorus girl, basically. She spent a year in New York working for the Schubert’s as a chorus girl, and then she got signed to the standard $75 a week beginners contract with MGM. Six month contract, all options on the studio side. And they threw her into the deep end of the pool.

01:14:06:21 – 01:14:32:21
Scott Eyman
You know, you’re doing bits, you’re doing walk ons, you’re posing for stills. Nobody knows who you are. Nobody cares who. Epoch. And she slowly begins to get a little traction. And then they start throwing her into different movies, trying to be Westerns. Opposite to McCoy, big western star. And then they put her up against Lon Chaney, who was a huge, huge star.

01:14:32:23 – 01:14:59:18
Scott Eyman
And generally speaking, in Lon Chaney’s movies, the actress is just the girl. You know, Chaney’s the star. The girl is just window dressing. But in this movie, it’s not just that she holds her own as an actress, which she shouldn’t have by all. By all means. I mean, she’s been in the movies for 18 months at this point, you know, and she’s a great actor at the top of his game.

01:14:59:21 – 01:15:07:22
Scott Eyman
And she’s just the girl. But she holds her own. She’s startlingly beautiful and compelling.

01:15:07:24 – 01:15:34:18
Scott Eyman
When she’s in a two shot with Lon Chaney, you watch her, not Chaney. And Chaney is a great actor and a great star, but she’s holding her own opposite Chaney. And when you see the movie, you realize, oh, that’s how it happens. You know, you throw them in the deep what amounts to the deep end of the pool, and most of them drown.

01:15:34:20 – 01:16:04:27
Scott Eyman
But every once in a while, there’s someone who just they may not have a great set of professional skills, but they’ve got magnetism, they’ve got charisma. There’s something about them that compels attention. And she’s doing scenes with Chaney, and you’re watching her, not Chaney. And I found that very moving because she didn’t know she was as good as she was.

01:16:05:00 – 01:16:26:09
Scott Eyman
You know, I think she thought she needed everything going for her. She needed the script. She needed the best cameramen. She knew the director. Everything had to be just so for her to get away with it. She didn’t. I’m not sure she realized how good she really was and how fast she got good. You know, because she always had doubts.

01:16:26:09 – 01:16:46:06
Scott Eyman
She always had those voices in her head and a lot of the Joan Crawford on a lot of the style with which she lived, the larger than life persona, the, telegraphing ahead when she’d be getting on the train would bring her into New York so her fan club would be there to meet her. All of that.

01:16:46:08 – 01:17:10:17
Scott Eyman
I think she thought she needed that, and I don’t think she needed that. I think she was extraordinarily gifted, naturally gifted. And, training would only have gotten in the way because she learned by doing it. She didn’t learn by being at Broadway for eight years or ten years and watching evil a galleon or Elena’s. She learned by watching Wayne Chaney and other actors.

01:17:10:19 – 01:17:37:09
Scott Eyman
Eleanor Boardman, she thought, was a wonderful actress, and she learned by also seeing actors who weren’t very good and what they did wrong. She talked to the cameraman, who told her what to do and what not to do more than the directors did, because the cameraman understood. There are certain people that the camera loves, and there are certain people that the camera hey, not the not the it doesn’t come across, but the camera loved her.

01:17:37:11 – 01:17:57:06
Scott Eyman
And over time, I don’t know that she ever loved herself. I think she learned to tolerate or so you know. She had a lot of insecurities. That’s what the book’s about dealing with insecurities, dealing with professionalism, learning how to act, learning how to be a star. Learning how to be a human being.

01:17:57:09 – 01:17:59:24
Dan LeFebvre
Well, thank you again so much for your time, Scott. Really appreciate it.

01:17:59:25 – 01:18:09:10
Scott Eyman
Happy to do it. Thanks for your time.

01:18:09:12 – 01:18:27:22
Dan LeFebvre
This episode of Based On a True Story was produced by Dan Lapham. Thank you once again to Scott Simon for helping us separate fact from fiction in the first season of feud. Scott’s new book is called Joan Crawford A Woman’s Face, and it adds yet another amazing biography from the Golden Age of Hollywood to Scott’s list of works.

01:18:27:25 – 01:18:49:16
Dan LeFebvre
If you’ve read any of Scott’s other biographies, you’ll appreciate his incredibly researched and narrative driven style. And as always, you’ll find links to Joan Crawford. A Woman’s Face by Scott Simon in the show notes for this episode, as well as on the show’s home on the web over at based on a True Story podcast.com. Okay, now it’s time for the answer to our Two Truths and a lie game from the beginning of the episode.

01:18:49:24 – 01:19:13:07
Dan LeFebvre
And as a quick refresher, here are the two truths and one lie again. Number one, Joan Crawford’s best friend was Hedda Hopper. Number two Joan Crawford was never officially diagnosed with cancer. Number three, Joan Crawford learned the most about acting from Lon Chaney. Did you figure out which one is a lie? I’ve got the answer in the envelope right here.

01:19:13:07 – 01:19:37:24
Dan LeFebvre
So let’s open this up. And the lie is number one. Even though the TV series has columnist Hedda Hopper as one of Joan Crawford’s best friends throughout the entire season, Scott explained, that is simply not true. Hedda Hopper was a real person. She was a real columnist who interviewed many of the actors and actresses of the time, Joan Crawford included.

01:19:37:26 – 01:20:00:14
Dan LeFebvre
But they weren’t super close friends like we see in the TV series. Thanks for sticking around to the end. If you are watching the video version on YouTube here, in a moment you’re going to see the credits roll. If you want to get your name in the credits for the next video and on the website, you can learn how to become a based on a true story producer using the link in the description or over at based on a True Story podcast.com/support.

01:20:00:17 – 01:20:10:25
Dan LeFebvre
Once again, that’s based on a true story podcast.com/support. Until next time. Thanks so much for spending your time with Scott Nye today, and I’ll chat with you again really soon.

00:00:01:08 – 00:00:20:12
Dan LeFebvre
Since we’re talking about Donald Rumsfeld in three different movies today, let’s start with a twist on the historical letter grade that we usually do. So this time the grade is not for the entire movie, but just how the movie portrays Rumsfeld. And our first movie today is 2018, vice, which you and I have talked about before. It’s episode 335.

00:00:20:12 – 00:00:31:14
Dan LeFebvre
If anyone wants to queue that up to listen to after this. But in vice, Donald Rumsfeld is played by Steve Carell. What letter grade does vice get for how Rumsfeld is brought to the screen?

00:00:31:16 – 00:00:35:17
William Cooper
I would say a D minus.

00:00:35:20 – 00:00:51:28
William Cooper
I think vice is a good movie and an entertaining movie. I love Steve Carell and Christian Bale’s awesome. In terms of accuracy, I thought it was just really,

00:00:52:00 – 00:00:54:14
Dan LeFebvre
Hard, just not.

00:00:54:15 – 00:01:04:11
William Cooper
Even approaching, one element of accuracy. Just kind of way out there on that particular character.

00:01:04:14 – 00:01:07:14
Dan LeFebvre
Donald Rumsfeld was a real person, and that’s it.

00:01:07:16 – 00:01:22:06
William Cooper
It’s about right. Yeah. No, it was, again, good movie, great actors. The whole crew involved in that movie. You know, very talented people. Accuracy wise, it was not very good.

00:01:22:08 – 00:01:35:12
Dan LeFebvre
Well, after vice, we’ll chat a little bit about Rumsfeld in 2008, w about George W Bush and that movie. Donald Rumsfeld is played by Scott Glenn. What letter grade does he get for his portrayal of Rumsfeld?

00:01:35:14 – 00:01:37:18
William Cooper
C minus.

00:01:37:20 – 00:01:38:24
Dan LeFebvre
Okay, a little better.

00:01:38:27 – 00:02:10:18
William Cooper
A little bit better. A little bit more. At least not whole cloth in that one. I felt like, but still really not at the aim there was not again, I didn’t feel like the aim or the ultimate product was about accuracy. I think it was more about entertainment. And it in some ways was really the both movies were about the focal point, Cheney advised.

00:02:10:18 – 00:02:21:29
William Cooper
And and Bush and W so it’s understandable that maybe Rumsfeld was used to add some flourish as opposed to be accurate.

00:02:22:01 – 00:02:46:25
Dan LeFebvre
Well, I’m really curious about the next one, because finally, we’re going to wrap up our discussion today with 2013, The Unknown Known. And that’s actually documentary interviewing Donald Rumsfeld himself. So there’s not an actor portraying him. But for that one, let’s shift back to the overall letter grade for how accurate the documentary is, because I know we all like to think that documentaries are entirely accurate, but I think we’ve all seen documentaries that can stretch the truth a little bit.

00:02:46:27 – 00:02:57:21
Dan LeFebvre
The example I like to give is Ancient Aliens, that some claim to be a documentary, but that’s a topic for another day. So, what does the unknown known get for its historical letter grade?

00:02:57:24 – 00:03:24:08
William Cooper
I’d say a minus, maybe even an a I I’m a huge fan of our old Morris. The predecessor documentary that he did about Robert McNamara is one of the most powerful films of any, any genre, in my opinion, is unbelievably powerful, movie. And I felt like the Rumsfeld movie was a follow on sequel to that.

00:03:24:08 – 00:03:49:04
William Cooper
In a way, I thought it was great. I thought it was well done. I will say documentaries can be extremely misleading. So I the higher grade is not simply because it’s a documentary. I actually thought it was a really good production and not misleading and not unfair. And in fundamental ways. And of course, you got a lot of raw material that was stripped from the historical record.

00:03:49:06 – 00:04:09:16
Dan LeFebvre
Well, I’m glad you pointed that out, because, yeah, sometimes people think, movie is entertainment, documentary is truth. And I know that’s what it’s supposed to be, but that’s not always what especially is talking about something political to where, you know, politicians tend to stretch the truth sometimes too.

00:04:09:18 – 00:04:32:22
William Cooper
Absolutely. Documentaries can even be worse because people are can be lulled into the so false confidence that something is true because it’s the documentary and then through omission, it can tell a totally different story, or amplifying the things that maybe weren’t as big of a deal. But I thought the the Rumsfeld documentary was really good, and I learned a lot.

00:04:32:22 – 00:04:48:29
William Cooper
I’d already knew a lot about Rumsfeld by that point in time is something somebody I’ve always been really fascinated by and interested in, and I actually learned a fair amount and was surprised about it. And, it was fascinating.

00:04:49:01 – 00:05:09:19
Dan LeFebvre
Now it’s good. Well, with the letter grades done, let’s start digging into a little more detail starting with 2018. Vice. That movie tells a little bit about Donald Rumsfeld before his political career. For example, it mentions that he was the former captain of the Princeton wrestling team. He was an elite Navy jet pilot before becoming a congressman.

00:05:09:21 – 00:05:21:26
Dan LeFebvre
But as you mentioned before, vice is more about Dick Cheney. So we don’t get a lot about Rumsfeld himself. So can you fill in some more history that we don’t see in the movie about who Donald Rumsfeld was before he was in politics?

00:05:21:28 – 00:05:51:18
William Cooper
Yeah, I think the movie takes some snapshots of Rumsfeld that are accurate. He was a wrestler, and that was a big part of his upbringing. And a lot of people think that his background as a wrestler sort of embodies his approach to politics and business being very aggressive and, confrontational. Even so, they got that right. He was, entered politics in his 20s, so there’s not a ton before politics entered politics in his 20s.

00:05:51:18 – 00:06:15:21
William Cooper
He was 29 when he was elected to Congress for the first time in district, just outside of Chicago, was in Congress for a number of years, worked for Nixon for a number of years. Was prudent. It’s it’s it’s a question about whether it was luck or prudence or a mix of the two. But he was in Nixon’s administration and in kind of a lower tier post.

00:06:15:23 – 00:06:45:29
William Cooper
And then right before Watergate exploded, he left to be the NATO ambassador in Brussels. So what everything was going for of the floor came out from underneath the Nixon administration. Rumsfeld had just gotten to Brussels and and was focused on other things. And his reputation, I think, was, preserved in some ways. There’s no evidence he was involved in the Watergate scandal or that he was in the machinations with Nixon and others.

00:06:46:01 – 00:07:09:01
William Cooper
But I think for anybody who was actually there on the ground in the administration, it was a tough time, and Rumsfeld was able to get out of it. He came back when Ford took over because Ford was a big fan of Rumsfeld. They were good friends from their time in Congress. And then shortly after Rumsfeld arrived to help Ford, he brought Cheney and who he’d met during the Nixon administration as one of his deputies.

00:07:09:09 – 00:07:30:29
William Cooper
So that’s how that all worked together. Then Nixon became, excuse me. Rumsfeld was, Ford’s chief of staff. Cheney was his deputy. And then Rumsfeld went and became secretary of defense for the first time, and Cheney was elevated to be chief of staff before it. And that’s how the two of them really got started.

00:07:31:01 – 00:07:39:22
Dan LeFebvre
That’s the kind of thing that I mean, the timing of that is very coincidental, but sometimes coincidences actually do happen too.

00:07:39:22 – 00:08:05:08
William Cooper
So yeah, they did, and I think, Rumsfeld was pretty astute. I mean, my view of Rumsfeld is a mixed picture of positives and negatives. The novel really tries to paint that full picture of somebody who’s not just, oh, good or evil, but a mixture of things. And one of Rumsfeld’s strengths, politically at least, he’s had a good nose for this.

00:08:05:08 – 00:08:27:25
William Cooper
Earlier on in his career. The good news for controversy and when to avoid it. As he got older and came back into politics, some might argue he ran to the controversies. But at least early on in his career, he really tried to avoid them and had a pretty good instinct for it. And that that was the the prime example of that getting out of Washington at the right time.

00:08:27:27 – 00:08:48:26
Dan LeFebvre
Well, if we go back to the movie after Rumsfeld is elected to Congress, the movie’s dialog suggests that Rumsfeld was a little different than other congressmen. And there’s a line of dialog from the movie I want to quote here. It says, quote, most congressmen use their power like an ax best and brightest. Rumsfeld, on the other hand, use his like a master of the butterfly knife.

00:08:49:02 – 00:08:58:21
Dan LeFebvre
And like any master, if you got in his way, he would cut you. Does vice do a good job explaining how Rumsfeld wielded his political power?

00:08:58:23 – 00:09:23:13
William Cooper
I think it’s really simplistic. Again, entertaining, good movie, but very simplistic. And it exaggerated. I don’t think that there were a lot of people who disagreed with Rumsfeld, but I don’t think he, you know, in the Ford administration, in Congress and in the 60s and 70s, I don’t think he was stabbing people in the back, left and right.

00:09:23:13 – 00:09:53:11
William Cooper
One of his chief rivals politically during that time was Henry Kissinger, especially with Ford. Rumsfeld and Kissinger were two really strong voices, and they had some disagreements. Rumsfeld was much stronger on the Cold War, wanted to take a much harder stance against Russia than Kissinger did. Kissinger’s philosophy was more, strategic co-existence with Russia, where Rumsfeld really wanted to be more confrontational.

00:09:53:13 – 00:10:19:15
William Cooper
And they, after they left government, ended up being very good friends. Rumsfeld writes in his biography that he and Kissinger had been very close for quite some time and, and really good friends. So there were rivalries and there were certainly a lot of political maneuvering going on, like you would expect from a politician. But I don’t think he was stabbing people in the back or doing, you know, really, underhanded sort of deceitful thing.

00:10:19:16 – 00:10:22:14
William Cooper
I think that was more of an exaggeration.

00:10:22:16 – 00:10:44:06
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Yeah. I mean, that makes it politicians will disagree. That’s kind of part of their job. But, you know, the stabbing in the back part, that’s mentioned in the movie or it doesn’t say specifically stabbing in the back, but it gives that impression. And so yeah, that’s I’m glad you clarified that though, because that was definitely the impression I got was basically my way or the highway.

00:10:44:09 – 00:11:06:10
William Cooper
Well, it certainly intellectually was could be like that. He could be my way of the highway in the sense a very strong views and wasn’t prone to compromise intellectually with what he wanted. He’s very deferential to the president, very deferential to the chain of command. So if the president gave him an order, he would follow it.

00:11:06:12 – 00:11:32:27
William Cooper
And he I think he would do so in a straightforward way. But he was very opinionated and very confident in his views and very, very and one of his biggest flaws of them all was not listening to the critics, not listening to other people. And I think that was one of the reasons he made such a big mistake with the Iraq War, was not listening to other, other opinions.

00:11:33:00 – 00:11:58:20
William Cooper
So in some sense he was very strong minded and he was my way or the highway, but I don’t think he was doing things that were, you know, extreme. I don’t think he was he was, you know, blackmailing his opponents or lying to the president or committing crimes to get things done. So I think there was some exaggeration in the movie, even though he was a very strong personality.

00:11:58:23 – 00:12:26:03
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Well, you mentioned friends and throughout the entirety of vice, it’s not Kissinger, but it’s pretty clear that Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney have a very close working relationship. It’s Rumsfeld who seems to give Cheney his big break in politics, working under him during the Nixon presidency. Then later in the movie, when Cheney becomes vice president, the impression I got was that it was Cheney who convinced President Bush to appoint Rumsfeld as the secretary of defense.

00:12:26:05 – 00:12:31:09
Dan LeFebvre
How much of that really happened? And can you unravel the working relationship that Cheney and Rumsfeld had?

00:12:31:11 – 00:12:56:16
William Cooper
Yeah, that’s pretty accurate and broad strokes. They Rumsfeld and Cheney, were always very close. The, agreed on a lot of things. There were some differences between them. Dick Cheney was a little bit more conservative, the Rumsfeld a little bit more hawkish in certain ways and foreign policy. But in general, they got along very well, really close allies.

00:12:56:19 – 00:13:25:19
William Cooper
And absolutely true that Cheney played a big part in Rumsfeld getting the job as secretary of defense under George W Bush. And it was interesting because Rumsfeld was a political rival of George W Bush, his father. So during the Ford administration, Rumsfeld and Herbert Walker Bush were rivals, didn’t get along well. Rumsfeld didn’t respect Bush’s intellect. Bush thought rummy was kind of, his nicknames.

00:13:25:19 – 00:13:55:23
William Cooper
Rummy. That’s what everybody calls him, throughout his career. So I sometimes do, too. But but Bush thought that that Rumsfeld was, you know, always jockeying for Ford’s attention in ways that, you know, weren’t really fair. Not again, not deeply mysterious or anything, but not fair. So they were real rivals. And Cheney convinced Bush to hire Rumsfeld as the right person for the job as secretary of defense, even though they had that history.

00:13:55:25 – 00:13:59:28
William Cooper
And even though Bush’s father wasn’t a big fan of Rumsfeld.

00:14:00:00 – 00:14:11:22
Dan LeFebvre
Was did the younger Bush not really have much of a, a beef with Rumsfeld then? They were not opponents necessarily, I guess. Then I was just his father, right?

00:14:11:24 – 00:14:27:04
William Cooper
Correct. Correct. So younger Bush and Rumsfeld never had any issues, didn’t know each other well prior to Rumsfeld joining the administration. But the younger Bush was certainly aware that Rumsfeld and his father had this rivalry.

00:14:27:07 – 00:14:35:29
Dan LeFebvre
Okay, okay. Before we move on to the next movie, is there anything about Donald Rumsfeld from the movie vice that we didn’t get a chance to talk about that you would like to mention?

00:14:36:01 – 00:14:57:19
William Cooper
I think I think he did a good job teeing it up. And, you know, I’ll just reiterate it. I thought the performance was great. And it made sense within the context of the film on the discrete question of accuracy, which is not the main question for movies all the time. I thought it was a low grade, but I did like the movie.

00:14:57:21 – 00:15:29:17
Dan LeFebvre
Okay, well, you know, for entertainment, it is entertainment. It’s not documentary. Right? Well, shifting gears to a different movie, we’re going to 2008, which is a biopic about George W Bush, and there’s a scene in that movie I wanted to ask you about with Dick Cheney, who was Bush’s VP at the time. And while Bush is having lunch, Cheney brings something for Bush to sign that will allow the US to use, as the movie puts it, interrogation techniques against unlawful enemy combatants with maximal effective persuasion.

00:15:29:20 – 00:15:54:22
Dan LeFebvre
Cheney goes on to say, it’s not torture, but it includes authorization for U.S. citizens if they’re aiding and abetting terrorist organizations. Now, we don’t see Rumsfeld in that part of the movie, but the impression that I got from the movie is that Cheney was the one behind some controversial things. And since we already talked about Cheney and Rumsfeld having a very close relationship, there’s kind of an implied involvement for Rumsfeld as well in the movie.

00:15:54:22 – 00:16:04:06
Dan LeFebvre
Two do we know how much influence Cheney or even Rumsfeld had over Bush’s policies in general?

00:16:04:08 – 00:16:09:10
William Cooper
And for policies, do you mean that interrogation or the policies in general?

00:16:09:12 – 00:16:27:26
Dan LeFebvre
Well, the scene was about the interrogation, I guess specifically, but I guess I would assume that because that that was something that’s would be seen as more controversial, like if he wasn’t already influencing policies and such, I guess I would just assume that they wouldn’t start with something very controversial.

00:16:27:28 – 00:16:57:28
William Cooper
That’s a good, good point. Yeah, I think that’s right. And Cheney and Rumsfeld were very influential with Bush, Cheney in particular. So Rumsfeld was over at the Pentagon running the Defense Department, and Cheney was much closer to Bush, much, much closer confidant to Bush. Although Bush and Rumsfeld had a good, strong relationship, it deteriorated some at the end.

00:16:57:28 – 00:17:31:09
William Cooper
But it was a good, strong relationship for many years. And they held great sway over Bush. But it wasn’t the simple caricature of the movies. I think Bush really respected Cheney and really respected Rumsfeld, and he gave their opinions a lot of weight. Now, it wasn’t static either. I think it changed over time. So the key initiative for both Cheney and Rumsfeld, their biggest initiative was the Iraq war.

00:17:31:11 – 00:18:11:06
William Cooper
And they really drove I think both of them maybe Cheney the most. But but Rumsfeld, certainly, as well, really drove the push for regime change in Iraq and played a big role in convincing Bush to do it. Others in the administration were more ambivalent. Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice and others weren’t as hawkish as Cheney and Rumsfeld, but over time, in large part because the Iraq War didn’t go well and didn’t go the way Cheney and Rumsfeld actually suggested it would, I think Bush lost trust in them.

00:18:11:09 – 00:18:36:10
William Cooper
Cheney gave a speech. It’s it’s a scene in the novel. He gave a speech in Tennessee where he says verbatim in quotes, Saddam Hussein definitely has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt that was in the lead up to the war. And he said that to the whole world, the whole world was watching, he said. There is no doubt.

00:18:36:12 – 00:19:00:03
William Cooper
And he certainly was saying things like that to the president. And Rumsfeld was saying things like that, the president as well. And when it turns out Saddam Hussein doesn’t have weapons of mass destruction, the erosion of trust is inevitable. And I think it really did happen. And by the time Bush was in the latter part of his second term, Rumsfeld had left the Pentagon.

00:19:00:03 – 00:19:25:11
William Cooper
He resigned, and Bush and Cheney’s relationship had frayed dramatically. So there’s a huge difference between year one of the Bush administration, where Cheney and Rumsfeld hold great sway, and year eight of the administration, where Rumsfeld’s God Cheney holds little sway. And there was a, you know, sort of a gradual decrease. It wasn’t linear, but a gradual decrease over time.

00:19:25:14 – 00:19:29:25
William Cooper
In between those, polar ends of the continuum.

00:19:29:28 – 00:19:53:21
Dan LeFebvre
Would some of that be what you were talking about before, where, intellectually at least having, you know, my way or the highway type approach to it where, well, but you also mentioned that Rumsfeld was very big on, on following command. So, that like the chain of command. So would that my way or the highway mentality still work for the president?

00:19:53:23 – 00:20:27:14
William Cooper
So. So Rumsfeld, very forceful interviews. If Colin Powell, his co-equal in the administration as secretary of state in the first term, disagreed with him, Rumsfeld would charge ahead and give little weight to the disagreement. He was very, very confident in his own opinion and his own opinion about what was true, his own opinion about what to do. But when the president of the United States would say, here’s what we’re going to do, here’s my decision.

00:20:27:17 – 00:20:54:18
William Cooper
Even if it went against what Rumsfeld wanted, Rumsfeld would follow that order. He respected the chain of command. And when he was secretary of defense, the only person above him was the president. That’s who you reported to. So the whole world, it was my way or the highway with the exception of the president. And certainly Rumsfeld had people at the Department of Defense and Cheney and others that he got along with well and respected their opinion.

00:20:54:18 – 00:21:09:14
William Cooper
So it wasn’t like he was disregarding every opinion that anyone ever gave. But in general, he was very, very convinced he was right. And the people that disagreed with them were wrong. But he would respect the chain of command. At the same time.

00:21:09:17 – 00:21:32:01
Dan LeFebvre
Well, you might have already answered my next question, but in the movie, if we’re to believe that movie’s version of history, Cheney and Rumsfeld were basically the reason why Bush went to war with Iraq over the WMDs of weapons of mass destruction, then at the end of the movie, we find out that they what they thought were WMDs turned out to be photos of watering holes for cattle.

00:21:32:03 – 00:21:44:13
Dan LeFebvre
So can you fill in a little more historical context around that situation? And then I’m assuming, based on what you said before, the movie is correct, to suggest that Rumsfeld and Cheney were incorrect about the WMDs in Iraq.

00:21:44:15 – 00:22:11:06
William Cooper
Yeah. Cheney, Rumsfeld were driving the driving force behind the invasion. I think they were the two leading figures behind it. And, one of the things that they talked about was that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. I don’t think Rumsfeld ever said it as categorically as Cheney or Cheney did say it unequivocally, even though there was disagreement in the intelligence community at the time, he still said it.

00:22:11:13 – 00:22:40:11
William Cooper
He still said there’s no doubt Saddam has weapons of mass destruction. So they were very vocal and they were leading the push for regime change. They also talked about other issues as well. Wasn’t just WMD, so they talked about the threat that Saddam posed in other ways to the United States and its allies. They also talked about the need to transform Iraq into a democracy, which in retrospect, was much more difficult than they assumed.

00:22:40:14 – 00:22:59:03
William Cooper
But that was one of the things they talked about. It. If I could turn into democracy, that could change the region, that could be a model for other countries in the region to move towards democracy as well. So it was a mixture of of things. But WMD were were very high on the list and that resonated with the American people.

00:22:59:03 – 00:23:26:19
William Cooper
So it was something that they focused on in terms of trying to get public opinion in support of regime change. Over time, we learned, that Saddam Hussein never had weapons of mass destruction at the time. Now, you can always say, well, just because we didn’t find them doesn’t mean they didn’t exist. But there were obviously a lot of eyeballs in Iraq after the invasion for many, many years.

00:23:26:19 – 00:24:02:19
William Cooper
Nobody ever saw them. I think it’s safe to assume they didn’t have weapons of mass destruction, and they were wrong. And that’s a really striking thing to have happen again. Rumsfeld was a mix of positives and negatives, pluses and minuses. It was a bit of a smart man. He was very dedicated to his country. I think his intentions were in the right place and a lot of what he did, but it’s a huge mistake to go out to the public, to the world, to the president and say, we need to get rid of Saddam Hussein because of these weapons of mass destruction.

00:24:02:21 – 00:24:30:02
William Cooper
And for that to be wrong. So W embellished it a little bit, made it more of a Hollywood movie, you know, exaggerated way of unfolding, as you would expect in a movie. But it’s, it’s it’s a good, fair, important criticism because they said there were weapons of mass destruction. We went to war, which is the biggest decision a sovereign nation can make.

00:24:30:04 – 00:24:32:26
William Cooper
And it wasn’t true.

00:24:32:29 – 00:24:55:15
Dan LeFebvre
Looking back on it through a historical lens, do we know why they were so positive? And, you know, with that saying, without a doubt that he has them when they don’t know for sure, because obviously they didn’t, so they couldn’t have known for sure that they did. So why would they say that? I mean, was it just to try to go to war to.

00:24:55:22 – 00:25:03:16
Dan LeFebvre
I think I remember living through those times, and there was a lot of people who were like, oh, we just want their oil or something like that.

00:25:03:18 – 00:25:29:07
William Cooper
I don’t think it was that simplistic. I’ve never seen evidence that they did it just to put money in their pockets, and that that’s an incredible accusation. But we’re going to go destroy a country and have a huge number of casualties, just so that my stock in an oil company goes up when I’m already very rich. So, yeah, I don’t think Cheney and Rose were motivated by enriching themselves.

00:25:29:10 – 00:25:59:14
William Cooper
I think their motivations were complicated. They weren’t identical, either. And I think what you have really are two people that had very strong views about foreign policy, extraordinarily high confidence in themselves. Right? Cheney. Rob. So they’re very confident in their own judgment. And they wanted what they wanted. And Rumsfeld in particular, they wanted to show that the United States was strong and a force in the world and that there were consequences.

00:25:59:16 – 00:26:24:29
William Cooper
I think they thought that during the Clinton administration, there were a lot of lines drawn in the sand, and then Saddam and other people would cross those lines, but there’d be no consequence. And I think for for Rumsfeld, he thought it was really important to make a statement that if you’re a dictator, if you are doing things like Saddam’s doing shooting at our planes, tried to assassinate George H.W. Bush, he invaded Kuwait.

00:26:25:01 – 00:26:38:04
William Cooper
If you’re a dictator doing all of these things, there’s going to be consequences. And and I think Rumsfeld wanted to make that statement, thought it was really important to make that statement.

00:26:38:06 – 00:26:54:13
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Okay. Yeah. That makes that makes sense. I guess it’s just interesting that, you know, you he’s still. Well, I guess you said it was Cheney that was still. So, saying it publicly like that is well, I guess, as you also said, a mistake.

00:26:54:16 – 00:27:21:00
William Cooper
A big mistake, a huge mistake. I think both men, Cheney and Rumsfeld, got a lot of unfair criticism throughout their tenure for a variety of things. A lot of decisions they made were very difficult decisions, and there was a lot at stake. But they deserved the onslaught of criticism and the historical condemnation. They deserve it because they said they had weapons of mass destruction.

00:27:21:02 – 00:27:50:01
William Cooper
That was a huge basis for why we went to war and it wasn’t true. And that is a very, very major offense for a politician entrusted with the security of our country. Frankly, the United States military is entrusted with the security of the whole world and a lot of lives. If you’re going to go to war, the ultimate step that you can take of it wasn’t just a bombing campaign, wasn’t just discrete attacks with cruise missiles coming in.

00:27:50:01 – 00:28:13:29
William Cooper
It was a war, and they did it in large part on the basis of something that wasn’t true. And they exaggerated the position at the time. So they exaggerated what they actually thought. There was doubt. Cheney knew there was doubt. There was doubt exaggerated. And then they turned out to be wrong. That’s a big deal. Not something you can sweep under the rug.

00:28:14:02 – 00:28:30:24
William Cooper
Even if you’re a trying to be fair minded and recognizing their strengths and weaknesses. Lots of criticism. And w the movie highlights that in a way that has some flourish and resonance with people. And I think helps people understand that.

00:28:30:27 – 00:28:36:02
Dan LeFebvre
Did it actually turn out to be watering holes for cattle, like the movie shows, or is that just a Hollywood embellishment? That was.

00:28:36:02 – 00:29:03:21
William Cooper
Hollywood. Okay, there was a lot of there was a so had to to be a little more granular about it there. There was a ton of evidence that Saddam had used weapons of mass destruction. There’s a ton of evidence that he would do so again, there was a ton of evidence of infrastructure, of weapons, of mass destruction. And it was fair to say Saddam Hussein could get weapons of mass destruction.

00:29:03:21 – 00:29:31:11
William Cooper
He could use them again. They just didn’t qualify it. And so when they went in, they we there were all sorts of infrastructure and things related to weapons were discovered. It wasn’t like Saddam only had rifles and and a few tanks. I mean, he did have a lot of infrastructure in place. It just wasn’t operational. And that’s a fine distinction in a way.

00:29:31:14 – 00:29:42:06
William Cooper
But at the end of the day, to say there’s no doubt you had weapons of mass destruction, was, a big mistake.

00:29:42:09 – 00:29:46:18
Dan LeFebvre
Well, is there anything else about the movie that you wanted to point out before we move on to the next one?

00:29:46:20 – 00:30:03:01
William Cooper
No, just another one where I think that the, a lot of respect for for that movie, I think is really entertaining. And I think does make some interesting points. But ultimately, you know, if you’re trying to really understand what happened, that’s not the place to look.

00:30:03:03 – 00:30:23:20
Dan LeFebvre
Well, our final movie to talk about today is the documentary called The Unknown Known. And at the beginning of that movie, Donald Rumsfeld himself mentions dictating some 20,000 memos in just the last six years at the Pentagon, and how there must have been millions of them over the course of his career. Then, of course, it goes on to use those memos as the basis of the documentary.

00:30:23:22 – 00:30:42:27
Dan LeFebvre
And in the documentary, when the filmmaker asks Rumsfeld if he knew that they would produce a vast archive from his memos, Rumsfeld laughs and says never crossed his mind. And that even he didn’t know what he was going to do next. So I have two questions about this. First, is it normal for a politician to have that many memos that are archived somewhere, presumably for the public to see?

00:30:42:27 – 00:30:54:06
Dan LeFebvre
Maybe. I don’t I don’t know the doc. We didn’t really point that out. But then and then also, do you get the impression that Rumsfeld was basically making it up as he went along? He kind of implied there.

00:30:54:09 – 00:31:27:05
William Cooper
So Rumsfeld, for on the first question, Rumsfeld wrote, these snow, they’re called snowflakes because they fell all over the federal government. And he it was before email, if there was email and if there was email at the time, Rumsfeld, would have been one of those people that sends, you know, hundreds and hundreds of that. But what he it highlights strength and and again, I think it’s important if you want to be accurate to there’s a podcast about how accurate is a movie compared to reality.

00:31:27:05 – 00:31:50:07
William Cooper
So I think accuracy is important if you want to be accurate about Rumsfeld, you need to recognize his strengths. And he was incredibly smart, man. Part of the big conundrum for me with Rumsfeld is how could somebody so smart be so wrong about Iraq and not just the weapons of mass destruction, but what he thought he could do with the country turning it into a democracy?

00:31:50:10 – 00:32:22:09
William Cooper
That was he was clearly wrong about that. But he was a very smart man, and he was extraordinarily hard worker. I mean, if you look at the things people say about Rumsfeld, he, you know, almost everybody that talks about him says he’s the hardest worker I’ve ever seen. One of his friends that he grew up with, guy named Janetta, who, has talked and in giving interviews about him, he said this is the most productive human being that’s maybe ever existed.

00:32:22:09 – 00:32:46:14
William Cooper
Like, he will he will wake up in the morning, and by the time he goes to bed, he will have done things that ten people couldn’t do. So he was just unbelievably, you know, feverish. And his work is productivity. And he didn’t just work all the time. He was really smart about it. He went when he left the Ford administration the first time he was secretary of defense, he took over JDS Searle.

00:32:46:16 – 00:33:16:09
William Cooper
He was the CEO of a pharmaceutical company. They made NutraSweet. He took it from this fledgling crappy old legacy corporation to a total juggernaut. And the stock went up like tenfold in just a few years. So he did prodigious with his work ethic, its ability to get things done, and the snowflakes, which were very, very accurate and very real, I think reflect that just the way he was able to get so much done.

00:33:16:12 – 00:33:37:10
William Cooper
The problem with being that productive is if you’re if the ships pointed in the wrong direction, it’s a big problem. And the Iraq Initiative, you put a lot of work into that. And we would have been better served if he had had other, focus of his energies during that time in terms of the archive. We put them on the web.

00:33:37:15 – 00:34:09:24
William Cooper
So rumsfeld.com, they’re all up there. It’s a great, great resource. You get all his memo or at least a huge percentage of his memos. I don’t know if it’s all of them, plus a lot of memos from other sources. So it’s all first hand. So if you want to actually dig into the the core of what was actually happening at that time and what people were saying, a lot of source material there that’s really, really valuable and interesting and is snowflakes were a big part of that.

00:34:09:27 – 00:34:18:29
Dan LeFebvre
So is more, work related memos, not necessarily like a journal or keeping a diary type, you know, just recordings and things like that. It was all for work purposes.

00:34:19:01 – 00:34:38:27
William Cooper
It’s memos, you know, from Donald Rumsfeld to Colin Powell, from Donald Rumsfeld to Dick Cheney, that sort of thing. And it’s actually and it’s the actual workings of government. Like, yeah, you can do orders from there. You can give your positions. So it’s it’s not it’s not a summary of something else. A lot of the time, a lot of time.

00:34:38:27 – 00:34:47:04
William Cooper
It’s the actual the memo is the events. And it’s, it’s really good history.

00:34:47:06 – 00:34:52:27
Dan LeFebvre
It sounds like with his work ethic, his work memos basically are his diary, his journal.

00:34:52:29 – 00:35:15:09
William Cooper
Yeah, that’s a good point. Yes. When you work 16 hours a day or more, you’re. That is your. Yes. You’re. And, it’s funny. That’s a good way to think about it. Yeah. A lot of really busy people there. Their email inbox and outbox is their diary. But yeah, I think it’s a good point.

00:35:15:11 – 00:35:31:03
Dan LeFebvre
What about that? The line that he had in the documentary where he’s like, he didn’t even know what he was going to do next, was were there did you ever get the impression, I guess, that he was making things up as he went? Or. I mean, you said he was very smart. So I would assume that he was have a little forethought.

00:35:31:05 – 00:35:54:14
William Cooper
He had a lot of forethought. He knew what he was doing. And he was aware of of his legacy in this future. I mean, by the time he was in the Bush administration, he was in his late 60s. He was born in 1933. So he was in his late 60s when it started. And and into his 70s as he served as secretary of defense for the second time.

00:35:54:17 – 00:36:16:16
William Cooper
So he wasn’t positioning himself to go into the private sector or get this job or that job or or, you know, run for president someday. He did run for president unsuccessfully in the 80s. It was very brief. But so he wasn’t positioning himself in that sense. He wasn’t thinking about, his next move from a professional standpoint.

00:36:16:16 – 00:36:41:10
William Cooper
When he stopped serving as secretary of defense, he did what I’m sure he assumed he would do. He wrote books. He participated in conferences and think tanks, speeches and things like that. But, but yeah, he was a smart man who read history his whole life and was aware that in his way, he was making history and there was a part of him.

00:36:41:10 – 00:36:45:06
William Cooper
I’m sure that was quite cognizant of that.

00:36:45:09 – 00:37:17:11
Dan LeFebvre
The whole concept of the movie’s title, The Unknown, known as Rumsfeld, explains, it is basically the things that you think you know, but it turns out you did not. In the documentary, he uses the example of the attack on Pearl Harbor and says that happened because of a failure of imagination, that the attack could even happen. Then, of course, as we all know from history, it turns out that Rumsfeld himself must have failed to imagine what could have happened because the world was shaken on September 11th, 2001, and Rumsfeld case shaken quite literally because he was at the Pentagon when one of the hijacked planes crashed into it.

00:37:17:13 – 00:37:47:02
Dan LeFebvre
But then the reaction to that attack was the US going to war with Iraq because of supposed connections to Al-Qaeda, even though in the documentary, Rumsfeld himself says he doesn’t think the American people thought Saddam Hussein was connected to Al-Qaeda. But then the documentary shows a clip, a news clip from February 4th, 2003, when Rumsfeld was secretary of defense and a reporter asks him to respond to Saddam Hussein, saying Iraq does not have weapons of mass destruction, and they also have no relationship with Al-Qaeda.

00:37:47:04 – 00:38:11:11
Dan LeFebvre
And in that news clip, Rumsfeld’s response was, And Abraham Lincoln was short. Then he goes on to call Saddam Hussein the local liar, which to me is pretty obviously suggesting that he believes Iraq does have WMDs, as we’ve talked about, as well as a relationship with Al-Qaeda, even though in the documentary he claims to deny it. Do you think Rumsfeld was purposely manipulating his words so the U.S. could have a reason to go to war with Iraq?

00:38:11:11 – 00:38:14:19
Dan LeFebvre
Or did I misinterpret what he’s trying to say there?

00:38:14:21 – 00:38:20:04
William Cooper
I think what happened with Rumsfeld’s public statements.

00:38:20:06 – 00:38:49:24
William Cooper
My sense and in a. Read and followed this really closely, is that Rumsfeld really wanted to go to war with Iraq. He really wanted regime change. He wanted Saddam out of there, not for oil money, not for bloodlust, but because he thought it was good for the world to get rid of Saddam Hussein and try to make the middle East more of a democratic region.

00:38:49:26 – 00:39:20:10
William Cooper
So he was very convinced that that was the right thing to do, and his public statements would be exaggerated or embellished to help that happen. And one narrative that resonated with people, because when you’re going to war, and especially in democracy, you want public support. You don’t want 90% of the people against the war, and then you go to war that it’s really important to have public support, to have political support.

00:39:20:10 – 00:39:45:27
William Cooper
And if Congress behind you and our constituents behind you. So they were they were doing a marketing campaign for a year or two before the Iraq War. And one of the things Rumsfeld would do with respect to this, and also respect to connections, al-Qaida is exaggerate, embellish, wink, wink, nod, nod.

00:39:45:29 – 00:40:12:22
William Cooper
So he wouldn’t outright lie in some grand way. Yeah, we know for sure that Saddam Hussein is in the process of selling WMD to Al-Qaeda. He wouldn’t say that, but he would. He would move the discussion in that general direction. And there were some connections between Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda, but they were tenuous. They weren’t. They didn’t suggest that they were cahoots together.

00:40:12:25 – 00:40:39:12
William Cooper
But there were some connections between them. And then I also think Rumsfeld genuinely felt like Saddam Hussein. If he does get weapons of mass destruction very easily, if not likely, would sell them to terrorists. Right? He wants to cause problems to the West, to the United States. So the prospect of him selling them to terrorists, whether it’s al-Qaida or whether it’s another terrorist organization, is a very real threat.

00:40:39:14 – 00:40:46:26
William Cooper
So his views would be in his statements, would be consistent with that overriding impulse.

00:40:46:28 – 00:41:09:15
Dan LeFebvre
Was it almost like a means to an end, like if he has it in his mind that he has to get rid of Saddam Hussein? Almost. Not that you can say anything, you know, because obviously we talked about you not doing anything illegal or anything like that, but also trying to persuade people and trying to get people to follow along, then, yeah, maybe we can stretch the truth a little bit here and there.

00:41:09:15 – 00:41:14:23
Dan LeFebvre
Or do you know things like. Yeah, and Abraham Lincoln was short, you know, that kind of that kind of quick.

00:41:14:25 – 00:41:45:15
William Cooper
It’s a good way to put it. Then he wasn’t outright lying in a obvious way. He’s a smart guy. So he knew that if he lied, you know, in a really obvious way, he would get called out on it. Unlike our politics of today, outright lies back then were, harder to get away with. But but he wanted he knew what he wanted to do, and he was trying to say things that would achieve that goal.

00:41:45:18 – 00:42:09:16
William Cooper
And in that sense, he would exaggerate things and embellish things, but not outright lying. Or, you know, going forward in some fraudulent way with evidence, things of that nature. You didn’t he didn’t do that. He definitely was trying to be a good PR spokesman for what he wanted to get done.

00:42:09:18 – 00:42:26:18
Dan LeFebvre
You mentioned, him thinking that, you know, Saddam Hussein might sell WMDs to terrorists was part of his motivation. Then, part of his reason for wanting to get rid of Saddam Hussein, basically to not have another nine over 11.

00:42:26:21 – 00:43:05:21
William Cooper
Yes, I think that was part of it. I think he legitimately feared I think 9/11 hit him very hard. When you’re the secretary of defense and the largest attack in him in the country’s history on our on our shores occurs. You’re in charge. The Pentagon gets hit. He was in the Pentagon at the time. I think it had a very dramatic impact on him that a lot of civilians, particularly people looking back on it, decades later, it’s now over two decades later, don’t feel the same urgency and fear that he felt.

00:43:05:23 – 00:43:28:02
William Cooper
So I think it really did hit him very hard. And one of his concerns, I think it was a concern about Saddam Hussein, but I think it was also a concern about the region in general. Iran was a a bad actor with respect to the United States at that time. There were terrorists, al and other terrorists as well.

00:43:28:05 – 00:43:56:24
William Cooper
I think he had a just an overriding concern about terrorism and not wanting to have another 911. I think that drove him very strongly. And when that fed into the overall basis for for wanting to get rid of Saddam because he he saw a real scenario where Saddam could and Saddam was a terrible dictator. He had tortured his people, invaded his neighbors.

00:43:56:27 – 00:44:27:21
William Cooper
He was extremely dangerous person. And so Rumsfeld felt like he was a threat. How far fetched is it to think that that would actually happen if we had not gotten in and taken Saddam out? Would he have gotten WMD and gotten him to terrorist hands? It it’s very hard to assess that, but I think that that threat was a one of several factors that drove Rumsfeld to want regime change in Iraq.

00:44:27:24 – 00:44:53:15
Dan LeFebvre
Something else that Rumsfeld says in the documentary that kind of sounded like a contradiction to me is when he says the U.S. doesn’t assassinate the leaders of other countries. But then he immediately goes on to talk about Dore Farms, where the U.S. tried to kill Saddam Hussein. And that sounded like a contradiction, because on one hand, Rumsfeld says the U.S. doesn’t assassinate leaders, and then he instead calls the Dora Farms incident an act of war, implying it’s not assassinating leader if it’s war.

00:44:53:17 – 00:45:16:07
Dan LeFebvre
But then, just a minute or so later in the documentary, he says that the U.S. wanted to kill Saddam Hussein to avoid going to war with Iraq. So maybe it’s just me, but it sounds like Rumsfeld is trying not to use a specific word because the U.S. doesn’t assassinate world leaders. But apparently the U.S. does launch a war against one person that just happens to be the leader of the country, so they can avoid going to war with the entire country.

00:45:16:09 – 00:45:22:05
Dan LeFebvre
What really happened with the Dora Farms incident and what, if any, involvement did Rumsfeld have?

00:45:22:07 – 00:45:49:27
William Cooper
I actually don’t know the detailed history there. I do know that Rumsfeld was pretty darn good about not getting caught saying things, but occasionally he would, and I thought that I thought the documentary on that point. Yeah. It’s hard to reconcile those various statements. And so, yeah, I think it was just it wasn’t being consistent was the takeaway that I got.

00:45:49:29 – 00:46:16:12
Dan LeFebvre
All the movies that we talked about today are mostly about other people, about President Bush with Scott Glenn playing Rumsfeld, vice about Vice President Cheney, with Steve Carell playing Rumsfeld. Then, of course, there’s the documentary, too, but there hasn’t really been a biopic about Donald Rumsfeld himself yet. So let’s say you’re put in charge of directing it. Who would you cast as Donald Rumsfeld in your movie, and what period of Rumsfeld life would you want to focus on?

00:46:16:15 – 00:46:41:12
William Cooper
That’s a great question. Well, you’ve asked the author of a biographical fiction novel about himself. If it becomes a movie, I’ll be very happy based on my book. Although that’s that’s hard. But I haven’t thought about that. Who would play him? That’s a really good question. I’m. I’m not skillful at casting Josh Brolin. Seems like maybe he could play.

00:46:41:13 – 00:46:53:00
William Cooper
And Steve Carell did a good job. I would want him to take a different tact, but. But he did a good job, I don’t know, what do you think, Dan? Do you have any any. Oh, wow.

00:46:53:01 – 00:47:00:23
Dan LeFebvre
Who, throwing it back. I mean, that’s I didn’t even think about answering my own question there.

00:47:00:26 – 00:47:02:06
William Cooper
It’s a tough question.

00:47:02:08 – 00:47:12:21
Dan LeFebvre
Josh Brolin would be good. I mean, he was, but when he was George W Bush and W, so it would be interesting to see him playing a different character in that same time period.

00:47:12:24 – 00:47:34:14
William Cooper
Yeah, yeah, I’m trying to picture somebody playing Rumsfeld. You have to be on the shorter side. Rumsfeld was five seven. He’d have to be able to slick his hair back. Really? Well, because Rumsfeld did that, I feel like Brolin might be the best, but yeah, you’re right, he was. He was Bush. But maybe that would be a good thing.

00:47:34:14 – 00:47:37:18
William Cooper
Maybe that would keep the keep the same going.

00:47:37:21 – 00:47:43:14
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. There you go. And then you can have Christian Bale play, George W Bush in the movie. It’s a side character.

00:47:43:16 – 00:47:46:15
William Cooper
Hey.

00:47:46:17 – 00:47:48:21
William Cooper
I’m in. I’m watching that.

00:47:48:23 – 00:47:53:28
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. Me too. We do have you back on to see what changes they made from from what actually happened.

00:47:54:01 – 00:47:56:07
William Cooper
Yeah.

00:47:56:10 – 00:48:13:20
Dan LeFebvre
Well, this isn’t a political show. Obviously. We are talking about a political figure from recent history. So no doubt what Rumsfeld did in his career impacts our country today. What’s 1 or 2 of the biggest things that you think Donald Rumsfeld’s political career had on today?

00:48:13:23 – 00:48:48:15
William Cooper
Well, the Iraq war was very consequential. It essentially because it near universal agreement that it was a big mistake and did not go well. But the premise of the war with respect to WMD, but also the idea that we could go in there and transform Iraq into a democracy in retrospect, people recognize was was a real mistake and a real misunderstanding of what’s capable, what we’re capable of in the Middle East.

00:48:48:18 – 00:49:31:09
William Cooper
And so I think there’s been a profound bipartisan recognition from the Iraq War that the United States, despite all of our power, needs to be more restrained in foreign affairs. And it’s one thing to target militias with bombs. It’s one thing to go after nuclear facilities in certain countries and things of that nature. But the idea of a full scale mobilization around a smaller country that can’t really defend itself, like Iraq, I think is essentially off the table at this point.

00:49:31:12 – 00:49:55:04
William Cooper
It’s just not something that the United States has a stomach for. And I think that’s a response to Iraq. And we learned that lesson. It’s really hard. You’re going to going into the Middle East and bombing a country to smithereens, and then building up a democracy from the rubble is just not something that we can do. Even if even if it sounds like a noble goal.

00:49:55:06 – 00:50:30:25
William Cooper
So I think that’s really his legacy politically is just being a part of of that initiative, how it went and how it’s reshaped our politics. And then his personal legacy to me is one, that’s very fascinating. I touched on it earlier, and I really one of the main things I try to bring out about him in the novel is he’s a really complicated guy who was, on the one hand, really, really smart.

00:50:30:27 – 00:50:55:04
William Cooper
And he was famous for recognizing you mentioned it earlier in the documentary, Dan talking about tears of knowledge, right, and understanding the limits of our own knowledge. There’s no knowns. There’s known unknowns, there’s unknown unknowns. And he articulated that framework in a in a really smart way. And he was right about about the way he laid that out.

00:50:55:04 – 00:51:19:20
William Cooper
So he’s sort of this character, this person, this historical figure who on the one hand is famous for articulating a framework of understanding human knowledge and our limits. And then, on the other hand, the Iraq Initiative was one of the most notorious violations of the very framework he set in place because he went beyond what he knew. He thought Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.

00:51:19:23 – 00:51:40:18
William Cooper
He thought it was a no no. He was wrong. He didn’t have them. He thought that we could transform Iraq. And he couldn’t. We we couldn’t as a country. And so I think his legacy is going to be, you know, that complication of how does somebody so smart make such a big mistake?

00:51:40:21 – 00:52:03:18
Dan LeFebvre
To paraphrase or to borrow I should say, from another movie, with great power comes great responsibility. And, sometimes you know, that’s. Yeah, we learned the lesson, as you said. Well, well, this is a topic we could continue to talk about forever. But thank you so much for coming on to talk about Donald Rumsfeld in the movies. You do have a new novel that you’ve talked about a few times.

00:52:03:18 – 00:52:13:22
Dan LeFebvre
It’s called The Trial of Donald Rumsfeld, and there’s a link to it in the show notes for my listeners to get their own copy right now. But before I let you go, can you give my audience a peek into your new book?

00:52:13:24 – 00:52:49:24
William Cooper
Yeah, it’s, it’s an alternative history. So it’s the trial of Donald Rumsfeld, and it Rumsfeld in the novel, after the Iraq War, through a series of scandal and tragedy, becomes president of the United States. So it’s historical, it’s historical fiction novel and an alternative history. And then as president, really, you get to see Rumsfeld’s full personality and character on display, and he makes some really big mistakes and ends up on trial at the International Criminal Court at the International Criminal Court.

00:52:49:24 – 00:53:07:26
William Cooper
And that’s where the book gets its title, The Trial of Donald Rumsfeld. The actual trials around his activity in the Iraq war. And so if you like historical fiction, legal political thrillers, it’s worth checking out.

00:53:07:28 – 00:53:11:08
Dan LeFebvre
Fantastic. I’ll make sure I add a link to that in the show notes. Thanks again so much for your time.

00:53:11:08 – 00:53:18:29
William Cooper
Well, awesome. Thank you Dan, really appreciate it. Love the podcast. And really, thank you for letting me come on again.

00:00:00:25 – 00:00:17:26
Dan LeFebvre
Before we dig into some of the key plot points from 2009. Amelia, let’s take a step back and look at the movie from an overall perspective and how it captures Amelia Earhart story. If you were to give it a letter grade for its historical accuracy or what it get.

00:00:17:29 – 00:00:46:03
Chris Williamson
Start off with the hard questions. Dan. You know, that’s a tough one. Maybe a C+ or B-, if I’m feeling really generous. It really depends on the day. You know, the film covers the basics. It covers the Atlantic flight, covers her marriage to Putnam. The election, her disappearance. Wow. It was only cover the disappearance, but it kind of like, preludes it in kind of a precursor for the disappearance and kind of ends on that, which is kind of, you know, haunting, it kind of simplifies who Earhart was.

00:00:46:03 – 00:01:00:02
Chris Williamson
You know, her heart was a very complex person. She’s a very complex woman. She had a lot of different, you know, sides to her. And, some of the events are sort of, according to me, sort of a little bit overly tweaked and overly analyzed and maybe kind of a little bit of movie magic is kind of thrown in there.

00:01:00:02 – 00:01:18:27
Chris Williamson
And they’ve taken some liberties, which you can’t really, but it is a historical piece, but you can’t really, you know, there’s there’s there’s so much of a mystery to this. It’s hard to not take some kind of historical liberty a little bit here and there, especially when it comes to some of the characters that came in and out of her life, specifically toward the end, like Fred Noonan and stuff, which I’m sure we’ll get into, as we get further in the conversation.

00:01:18:27 – 00:01:21:27
Chris Williamson
But, yeah, you know, a c-plus maybe a B-minus.

00:01:21:29 – 00:01:38:29
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Yeah, that’s I mean, like you said, I mean, again, it is movie and entertainment, but, you know, every movie makes different changes and the creative decisions that they do to, to tell a historical story. So I’m always curious just kind of get that overall general sense. Where is the ballpark here on this.

00:01:39:01 – 00:02:02:21
Chris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah. They they did a they did a good job with it. You know overall I mean it wasn’t again historical accuracy is is picked apart I think in every film. I think it’s very rare that that film gets it like you know spot on or pretty close to spot on. This one, obviously, Amelia’s life was, one of our guest, Laurie, who just has a book out, currently said, you know, Amelia’s first few years of her career was like the first reality show.

00:02:02:21 – 00:02:21:12
Chris Williamson
She was like, cast, you know, cast in this and this part, which will, of course, get into probably the next few questions. But yeah, it’s it’s it, you know, when you have stuff like that, it takes a lot of creative liberty to sort of tell the story, especially when you have limited sources and limited time. And, and her movie studio that I’m sure wants to put certain things into the film and all that.

00:02:21:12 – 00:02:45:19
Dan LeFebvre
So you mentioned what my next question is going to be, because at the very beginning of the movie, we learned that a man named George Putnam, he published Charles Lindbergh book in 1927. And then George gets financing from a socialite named Amy Guess to find a woman to be the first to fly across the Atlantic. And there’s a contract here that we learn about in the movie to tell this woman’s story in The New York Times and also to write a book about it.

00:02:45:25 – 00:03:13:00
Dan LeFebvre
But all that money is going to go back to Mrs. Guest as the financier. And then George finds Amelia Earhart, and that’s how she became the first woman to fly across the Atlantic in 1928. Although the movie shows Amelia being a passenger, the pilot is a man named Bill Stultz and navigator is Slim Gordon, but according to yeah, according to George in the movie, the pilot signed a deal to say that Amelia is the commander, so it kind of makes it sound like she was the one in charge.

00:03:13:00 – 00:03:23:20
Dan LeFebvre
Although when we’re riding along in the movie, it also shows that Amelia is pretty much just along for the ride. How well does the movie do? You set up Amelia Earhart Trip across the Atlantic in 1928?

00:03:23:22 – 00:03:43:00
Chris Williamson
Yeah, it gets it gets a lot of the again, a lot of the basic foundational stuff. Right? I mean, Putnam was involved with with Lombard’s book prior, he had made a name for himself prior to Earhart walking into his office. Annie Guest is a really interesting woman. Amy. Guest. You think about the time, you know, this is 20, 27, 28.

00:03:43:02 – 00:04:07:26
Chris Williamson
This woman was a billionaire with a B. So at that time, you know, she was she really wanted to go on the flight herself. The whole vehicle was, was initially meant to be for her. Amy Phipps guest wanted to be the first woman across the Atlantic. And her family or kids specifically said, hell no, you’re not going to be the first woman to cross the Atlantic because so many people have already died, women included, trying to attempt this.

00:04:07:28 – 00:04:25:28
Chris Williamson
And so credit to Amy Gast, who didn’t poo poo the entire who saw the bigger picture. It didn’t poo poo the fly just because she wasn’t going to be the star of the show. She, you know, asked George Putnam and and to come up with, you know, the right American pilot or the right woman, you know, to to do this.

00:04:25:28 – 00:04:45:03
Chris Williamson
And and Earhart at the time was in 28. You have to understand, she wasn’t, you know, her flights and she was flying for the fun of it, but she was flying a lot of that time to promote, you know, the the Dennison house and the social work that she was doing in Boston. And she wasn’t really about the she wasn’t looking for her next big step.

00:04:45:05 – 00:05:02:10
Chris Williamson
But when it came, it was kind of out of left field. And, you know, there’s a lot of a lot of infamous, interactions between, you know, her first interaction with George Putnam wasn’t very positive. She thought he was a pompous. You know, I can’t know if I can cuss on the show, but she thought he was a pompous asshole, you know?

00:05:02:10 – 00:05:30:01
Chris Williamson
And she really didn’t. You know, she really didn’t feel like he was, you know, a very, very, a very good guy, calling her the commander. Yeah, it definitely was a PR move. They wanted. They wanted Earhart, though, to feel like she had some power in the flight. And she did exercise that power. You know, there she had a lifelong issue with alcoholism and drinking, and she despised really people that did and, you know, went all the way back to her father when she was a little girl.

00:05:30:03 – 00:05:48:16
Chris Williamson
It will appear again with Fred Noonan as we get further into this conversation. And it appeared here in the, in the 28, the friendship flight. And, you know, they were drunk, these guys were drunk. And she was just, you know, she was beside herself and she really took it seriously because to her, this wasn’t just another flight to her, this was her chance at making history.

00:05:48:23 – 00:06:04:13
Chris Williamson
And these guys were kind of sort of, you know, not taking it as seriously as she would have liked it. But yeah, that’s that’s all fairly accurate. I mean, Putnam, you know, he comes her husband later, he plays a big role in her public image. Obviously. We talk about that a lot today. But calling her the commander wasn’t.

00:06:04:15 – 00:06:11:19
Chris Williamson
It wasn’t about deception, necessarily, but it it definitely was a PR move to help sort of launcher into the stratosphere, which, you know, he was right.

00:06:11:21 – 00:06:42:17
Dan LeFebvre
I think we do see a little clip of that in the movie. There’s a scene I remember even before they took off, one of the guys was drinking and and Mayo comes in and basically tells him off. You know, she clearly doesn’t like that he’s drinking and he’s, you know, and when I was watching that, I guess I if I think she remember she mentioned something about her father, but the impression that I got was, also like, you’re going to be flying this plane and my life is on the line here, and, you know, do your job, and they.

00:06:42:18 – 00:06:59:24
Chris Williamson
Say, I don’t want to die. Yeah, I don’t want to be another statistic. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, she was very serious about it. She had dreamed about this moment, but she had kind of put it away, you know, and then it kind of came roaring back into her life and, in a very earth shattering way, and, you know, in the form of the 28 flight.

00:06:59:24 – 00:07:04:21
Chris Williamson
So, yeah, it changed everything for her. And she took it very seriously. She was not happy with them drinking on that flight.

00:07:04:24 – 00:07:20:19
Dan LeFebvre
You mentioned earlier, kind of being cast in and in the movie, George basically tells Amelia that he picked her to be the pilot, not because of her skills, because, as the movie puts it, pretty girls command more attention. So is it true that Amelia was recruited for basically her looks over experience like the movie suggests?

00:07:20:21 – 00:07:36:02
Chris Williamson
Yeah, I think so. I mean, at first she definitely was, you know, they wanted an American girl. Like I said earlier in the chat, I mean, it was a reality casting it was an early phase of reality casting. That’s really what it was. They were looking for somebody that would fit the bill. That would look the part.

00:07:36:08 – 00:07:55:27
Chris Williamson
You know, the whole Lady Lindy thing was a real thing. He wanted to he wanted to basically copy Charles Lindbergh. And just make a female version of Charles Lindbergh. And, you know, he was definitely successful at that. The man, you know, was brilliant when it came to PR and kind of, you know, what he was doing.

00:07:55:27 – 00:08:12:15
Chris Williamson
He knew exactly where he wanted to go with Amelia. And I think, you know, she sort of had that tunnel vision that a lot of people maybe didn’t around him, other than maybe Amelia herself. Once they got together, that was like a whole nother, whole nother thing. He kind of supercharged her career, so. But, yeah, I would say it’s it’s it’s largely right.

00:08:12:15 – 00:08:27:09
Chris Williamson
I mean, looks played a role in it. She looked like, you know, she was a pretty woman. You know, she, had all these jobs. She had all this top, these ties into the backbone of America. Like, it just made a lot of sense and a lot of different ways. But I’d be lying if I said looks wasn’t a big part of it.

00:08:27:09 – 00:08:28:15
Chris Williamson
Of course. Yeah, yeah.

00:08:28:17 – 00:08:49:27
Dan LeFebvre
Well, that leads right into my next question. Because in the movie, after after the successful trip across the Atlantic, when Amelia returns to the U.S., she instantly becomes a celebrity and in addition to the book deal, now we start to find out that George seems to have turned the trip into other moneymaking opportunities. You mentioned the Lucky Strike Cigarets that he kind of snuck in there, and not to get too far ahead of where we are in the movie’s timeline.

00:08:49:27 – 00:09:18:09
Dan LeFebvre
But about halfway through the movie, we also see Amelia doing things like commercials for her own brand of luggage and clothing. And we see then George talking about how he convinced Purdue University to pay 80,000 for the electric plane that Amelia flew around the world. That, of course, we’ll talk about later in our discussion. But the impression that I got then was, as I was watching the movie here was basically Amy guess financed the first flight, but then after that it was kind of George Putnam, who basically secured sponsors to finance both himself and Amelia’s career.

00:09:18:11 – 00:09:21:27
Dan LeFebvre
Is that really how Amelia Earhart earned money for her flying career?

00:09:21:29 – 00:09:39:00
Chris Williamson
Yeah, it’s pretty spot on. Earhart don’t, you know, worked a lot of jobs, worked a lot of jobs before she became famous. And that didn’t change when she became famous. Just the job type changed. That’s all it was. You know, he was obviously, you know, the the best of the best of publicity. He wasted no time.

00:09:39:00 – 00:09:56:04
Chris Williamson
He got into, like, as you mentioned, speaking gigs, endorsement deals, magazine features, the Lucky Strike ad that you mentioned. She wasn’t happy with that. She kind of later regretted that, you know, tying her her face and her her likeness, her name to cigarets. But, you know, that was all sort of part of, like, this, this large branding effort.

00:09:56:04 – 00:10:16:15
Chris Williamson
I mean, they wanted to explode her into the stratosphere. They wanted to make her paste her face everywhere. It’s really not unlike what they do with, you know, celebrities today when you see certain names and they’re just they’re everywhere. All of a sudden they’re advertising for everybody. You know, it’s a I compare kind of very different, but I compare it to when Patrick Mahomes were, you know, around Kansas City here when he became really big.

00:10:16:23 – 00:10:35:24
Chris Williamson
I mean, he was he’s advertising everything out here in Kansas City. It’s everything banks and Whataburger and like just all kinds of things, you know, you name it. So it’s not like it’s not very different. I think, George, I’m just kind of was, was doing it in the 20s, you know, and doing it in the 30s, up until Amelia disappeared.

00:10:35:26 – 00:10:55:08
Chris Williamson
But she wasn’t just along for the ride. I mean, I think she, you know, she we’ve talked about this a lot on the show. She helped shape her own image. She was a very, strong woman. She had a lot of goals. You know, she had no problem, you know, doing what she needed to do to to achieve those goals.

00:10:55:10 – 00:11:12:25
Chris Williamson
You know, she had her own luggage set, her own clothing line. She was a editor for cosmopolitan. I mean, this woman was everywhere. And, you know, the Purdue connection to to just kind of wrap it up. It’s legit. She was brought in by the then president, Purdue. I’m forgetting Eliot. I forgot his name for a second.

00:11:12:27 – 00:11:33:00
Chris Williamson
He saw her. She had already been speaking on the lecture circuit, and he saw her, and he was like, Holy shit. This woman is, like, amazing. You know, this woman is amazing. She’s she’s garnering, you know, all of this following and all these people are just mesmerized by her, I think to to Eliot’s credit, he saw that and brought her into to Purdue, and helped her fund her.

00:11:33:00 – 00:12:00:16
Chris Williamson
You know, her electric. They even called it the the flying laboratory. She was given a special designation, a career counselor for women, if I’m not mistaken, or something along the lines of that. This is a woman who was in classrooms in Purdue in the 20s, 100 years ahead of her time talking about things like Stem, you know, science, technology, you know, engineering mathematics, trying to get a lot of women and men really, for that matter.

00:12:00:18 – 00:12:18:12
Chris Williamson
But women specifically to say, look, you don’t have to get a general degree and go back into the home, and, well, now you got to go get married. No, you can fly. You can do, you know, you can get in mathematics, you can be an engineer, you can be a mechanic, things like that. So a lot of that is very, the groundwork that the movie lays is, is very good, is very solid.

00:12:18:12 – 00:12:21:13
Chris Williamson
And, it hits a lot of the big strides. You know.

00:12:21:16 – 00:12:41:03
Dan LeFebvre
I can understand in the movie, you know, just not getting into that side of it, you know, there would be a lot of time to, to get into her, promoting that kind of stuff. But it’s fascinating that she. You’re talking about you on reality show ahead of the time, but it sounds like she was really ahead of her time, too, like in and what she was promoting there with, women in Stem and stuff like that.

00:12:41:03 – 00:12:44:20
Dan LeFebvre
I can imagine that was very popular back in the 1920s.

00:12:44:22 – 00:13:06:29
Chris Williamson
Yeah. And it was very important to her, very important to her. She was a champion of of women. She was a champion of aviation. You know, she wanted to be on the front line. She saw no problem with, really the fame that she, you know, she was a sort of a double a walking, double edged sword. I mean, she loved to, she loved her privacy.

00:13:07:01 – 00:13:19:07
Chris Williamson
I think there was a man that she dated to go to take it back a little bit, and I know we’re jumping around, but to take it backwards a little bit before she met George, there was a man and I. I’m remiss if I didn’t say this, that she, that she met, that she was engaged to. His name was Sam Chapman.

00:13:19:09 – 00:13:41:06
Chris Williamson
And Sam Chapman was, in my opinion, was really the love of her life. And he was, you know, if you look him up, he was fiercely private. He protected that privacy. There were, moments in the middle of Earhart’s career, early in her career, where they were still together. This is before she, you know, got engaged and started having an affair with George and Mary.

00:13:41:06 – 00:14:05:09
Chris Williamson
George, where they would spend time together, they would drive up the coast after she got back from a flight. And it spent 3 or 4 hours together before she had to be rushed back to her, her schedule, you know, the rest of her stuff. But she was very much in love with Sam, to the point that if she had trusted him, specifically with, you know, what to do with everything after she died, if she didn’t make it across, you know, the transatlantic flight or her solo.

00:14:05:09 – 00:14:24:22
Chris Williamson
I mean, she was really. She really loved him, really trusted him. So Sam was, I think, the love of her life. But George Putnam was just a natural fit. And it, you know, it just kind of worked out for for Amelia, when it comes to the publicity side of things that she happened to be with, you know, have somebody in her pocket that was, probably the best she could have at the time.

00:14:24:25 – 00:14:45:13
Dan LeFebvre
Well, I wonder if some of that leads into my next question. Because if you go back to the movie, we see George and Amelia, it’s it their relationship transitioned from a strictly professional one to a romantic one as well. And he’s the one that seems to be more entirely smitten with her and wants to get married. And even though she does seem to eventually love him, she doesn’t want to commit to a marriage.

00:14:45:13 – 00:14:59:07
Dan LeFebvre
And maybe some of what you were just talking about kind of alluded to that. But then skipping ahead in the timeline of the movie a little bit later on, George eventually does convince her to marry him. Do you think the movie does a good job telling the true story of George and Amelia’s relationship?

00:14:59:10 – 00:15:26:11
Chris Williamson
It gets the broad strokes right. You know, it’s such a deep relationship. There’s a book, I will promote it. It’s not mine. It’s you’ve probably heard of it. It’s called The Aviator and the showman. It’s by Lori King Shapiro. It just dropped. We just had Lori was the most current episode of our show, and, you know, that relationship, if you really want to know the the the gritty, nitty gritty details, you know, read that book because it there’s so much more to that relationship.

00:15:26:13 – 00:15:46:24
Chris Williamson
And Lori did a fantastic job of uncovering some new information that hadn’t been previously known, historically, but it does get the the broad strokes, for the most part, fairly accurate. He was very persistent. He pushed. I mean, I can appreciate that. I, as soon as I saw my wife, I, I told my friend like, that’s my wife, she doesn’t know yet, but I’m going to marry her.

00:15:46:24 – 00:16:23:10
Chris Williamson
And it took me a little while, but I was very persistent. So I can I can admire that persistence, in Mr. Putnam. But she was obviously much more hesitant. She, you know, she valued her independence, really, above anything else, her flying, her public life, all her private relationships and things of that nature. And, and, you know, she wrote a really famous letter to George, and I’m paraphrasing, but she talks about her reluctance to marry him, and, you know, that marrying him sort of shatters any chances, in work and her work, which really meant, more than anything, getting women in aviation out there.

00:16:23:10 – 00:16:41:21
Chris Williamson
And really, the mission, the cause was the most important thing to her more than anything else. And, you know, she tells him famously in that letter, you got to let me go in a year. If if we don’t find happiness, you know, even though it’s an attractive cage, I can’t stay in a cage. And you got to promise you’ll let me go in a year.

00:16:41:23 – 00:17:06:16
Chris Williamson
I won’t hold you to any medieval, you know, marital obligations. And you don’t hold me to any marital obligations, either. And she was again, what, 100 year? I mean, people, I mean, this is way off topic, but if you look at like the the status of like marriage, now, you know, just how much open marriage is there, how much that, you know, this is in the Jazz age, a hundred years ago almost.

00:17:06:18 – 00:17:34:18
Chris Williamson
And, you know, open marriage. It’s weird how it comes around in circles like that was a very common thing at that time, and it just wasn’t really talked about. But the people that were really well known that were sort of in those circles, like Amelia Earhart and George Putnam, I once those things started to get out, I mean, people were like, well, of course, you know, it was because it was the Jazz Age and it was everybody was having affairs and everybody was sleeping around and everybody was, you know, had the sort of loose lips kind of look at marriage and long term relationships.

00:17:34:18 – 00:17:42:02
Chris Williamson
So, you know, people could argue that she was way ahead of her time or people could say that, well, just everybody was doing that at the time. That was just kind of the way the world is.

00:17:42:02 – 00:18:01:12
Dan LeFebvre
Since we are on the topic of Amelia’s personal relationships, another one that we see in the movie is Jean Vidal, who also works with Amelia for a little bit while, and we don’t really see them sleeping together in the movie, although there is a scene where we see Jean and Amelia kissing in an elevator. So the impression that I got was that Amelia probably had an affair with Jean while she was married to George.

00:18:01:15 – 00:18:05:28
Dan LeFebvre
Was there a romantic relationship between May and Jean?

00:18:06:00 – 00:18:24:17
Chris Williamson
Maybe. You know, we don’t have we don’t have any there. So I will tell you this. There’s no definitive proof. So the film does take liberty there with the elevator kiss I, which I’d forgotten about. I just remember that, as you told me, was like, oh, yeah, she did. Yeah, she did sneak a kiss in the elevator. There’s no definitive proof that they ever had a relationship.

00:18:24:17 – 00:18:52:15
Chris Williamson
They were friends. They were close as a you know, she was with a lot of people. He was Jean was obviously, he was the, the father of of, Gore Vidal, the who was a writer. And Gore is, really the one that sort of, kept this rumor alive, for lack of a better phrase. But, you know, Gore was a fantasy writer, and he was a kid, you know, when he would have seen Amelia with with Jean.

00:18:52:22 – 00:19:08:24
Chris Williamson
And, you know, doesn’t mean that if we’re, you know, six, seven years old, we don’t remember things that we see, you know, definitively. But, you know, you sort of take that into consideration that in combination with there never being a physical or any any kind of proof or any letters between the two of them, then that would, that would say, you know, hey, we were romantic together or anything like that.

00:19:08:27 – 00:19:23:09
Chris Williamson
There’s just no, there’s to use a term from the disappearance. There’s no smoking gun for that. So, you know, it’s it’s rumor and innuendo to to which there is an awful lot, when it comes to Amelia Earhart, both pre death and certainly post death.

00:19:23:15 – 00:19:44:28
Dan LeFebvre
So it sounds like maybe the movie and a movie do this a lot. You know, you have this one little, little fact you’re talking about, open relationships being a bigger thing. And then this other element of it and they’re like, okay, we’re just going to connect these dots and just kind of fill in some of those gaps, even if there’s not, a dot in the middle of of proof that we know, but it’s a movie and we have that creative license to do that.

00:19:44:28 – 00:19:46:07
Dan LeFebvre
It sounds like that’s kind of what they’re doing there.

00:19:46:14 – 00:19:51:08
Chris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that’s that’s kind of what Hollywood does with a lot of. So yeah. Yeah.

00:19:51:08 – 00:20:18:20
Dan LeFebvre
Well, speaking of Amelia Earhart, supporting other women, one of the other women aviators in the movie that we see is Eleanor Smith. And the movie shows Amelia being very supportive of Miss Smith and really, any other women fighters that she comes across. But when Amelia isn’t around, George tries to convince Eleanor to purposely let Amelia win a derby flight from Santa Monica to Cleveland to as the movie puts it, benefits women fliers everywhere.

00:20:18:26 – 00:20:41:26
Dan LeFebvre
And of course, the sponsorships that the movie shows, I’m sure would also benefit him financially too. But then we see Amelia coming in third behind Louise Hayden and Gladys O’Donnell. Anyway, so the movie is really unclear if George’s influence had any effect on that outcome. Does the movie accurately portray the different perspectives that Amelia Earhart and George Putnam had on other women fighters, like Eleanor Smith?

00:20:41:29 – 00:21:16:18
Chris Williamson
Yeah, it does. So I will tell you, it’s it does portrayed accurately. Amelia, you’re right 100%. Amelia was very friendly with all of her compatriots, the people that, you know, fellow 90 nines people that she was flying with, people in the air, dirty races, other female aviators. She was very sweet. And I think if you look at any of the, documentation that’s out there, you’re going to be hard pressed to find, an instance where Amelia ever, like, cussed another female aviator out or any or anything like that, or, you know, she showed more than minor frustrations, you know, of of things.

00:21:16:21 – 00:21:37:04
Chris Williamson
But it wasn’t with anybody in particular. Eleanor Smith was an absolute animal when it came to fly. She was one of the best fliers ever. She was a fantastic aviator, and she was technically a much more skilled pilot. Admitted by Amelia herself. Amelia has said several times on record that, you know, she’s not the most talented pilot.

00:21:37:04 – 00:22:03:13
Chris Williamson
If you talk to, a lot of aviation history historians, they’ll tell you about people like Pancho Barnes. They’ll tell you about Florence Clayton Smith. I’ll tell you about Ruth Elder Ruth Nichols, Eleanor Smith. I mean, there’s dozens and dozens and dozens of women, that were incredible fliers. George, while that particular event, with the the, the Air Derby race with Eleanor Smith, that particular event was fictionalized.

00:22:03:13 – 00:22:22:25
Chris Williamson
It was more of a representation of kind of what he would do. So, you know, yes, he did, try to influence negatively and pressure a lot of the other women and try to tell them things, like, you know, they wouldn’t have a career if, you know, they didn’t allow Earhart to do dot, dot, dot or whatever.

00:22:22:27 – 00:22:40:17
Chris Williamson
Now, Earhart and, and, and Putnam were sort of at odds with that. But Earhart obviously didn’t know a lot of a lot of that stuff. I think that, you know, or that were instances where Earhart found out that George Putnam was pressuring people and she would go talk to George and tell them, like, look, this is important. You know, you can’t be talking to women like this.

00:22:40:17 – 00:22:59:21
Chris Williamson
You can’t be, you know, talking to my compatriots like this. So, yeah, I mean, that particular moment. No. But did that stuff happen all the time? Absolutely. I mean, George was fiercely competitive and wanted Earhart to be the woman, the face of aviation. And, you know, to his credit, we’re still sitting here talking about her.

00:22:59:21 – 00:23:01:27
Chris Williamson
And so he must have done something right.

00:23:02:00 – 00:23:15:25
Dan LeFebvre
I guess sometimes. Yeah. When you’re, in PR like that, you got to kind of do what you got to do, and he’s doing his job. But then Amelia being, you know, married to her job, it sounds like, you’re going to but has an end be at odds. Sometimes it seems.

00:23:15:27 – 00:23:32:11
Chris Williamson
Yeah, sometimes I mean, it it’s it’s, you know, he was he was brutal, but I don’t I don’t think George had a problem being the bad guy. You know, when it came to that, if it if it resolve the mission and if it got them to where they needed to be, I, I really don’t I don’t think he had a problem with that.

00:23:32:11 – 00:23:36:05
Chris Williamson
He just wasn’t the kind of guy that had a problem with that. You know, it was just business. It was a personal.

00:23:36:11 – 00:24:02:06
Dan LeFebvre
Well, if we go back to the movie after being the first woman to fly across the Atlantic as a passenger, the movie then shows Amelia wanting to become the first woman to fly solo across the Atlantic. And that happens in 1932. We see her leaving new Jersey with the plan to arrive in Paris, and then there’s some issues with the storm and icing along the way, and the movie shows her landing successfully in Gallagher’s pasture, which just seems to be a random farm in Ireland, as she’s greeted by Shepherd and his sheep.

00:24:02:09 – 00:24:19:00
Dan LeFebvre
But still, it’s a successful flight across the Atlantic and makes history for the first nonstop solo flight for a woman. And the only. This movie mentions the second person, following Charles Lindbergh’s transatlantic flight. How well does the movie do? Showing Amelia Earhart historic flight across the Atlantic in 1932?

00:24:19:03 – 00:24:44:28
Chris Williamson
Yeah. It’s pretty it’s pretty accurate. For the most part. As far as everything you laid out, where she landed, where she started from, you know, the inclement weather, to say the least. I mean, she was in an open weather cockpit, so. I mean, that Vega. So, I mean, you weren’t in an Electra like she was, you know, in 37 where she had some cover, so she was just getting dumped on with everything that, you know, the good Lord was throwing at her, while she was going across the Atlantic.

00:24:45:00 – 00:25:06:02
Chris Williamson
And, you know, so this is this is the the this is the flight that if the French friendship flight made her world a world star, this shot her into the stratosphere. It earned her the Distinguished Flying Cross. You know, she was obviously, as you mentioned, the the, you know, the first woman to fly solo across the Atlantic right after, Lindbergh.

00:25:06:04 – 00:25:33:19
Chris Williamson
But the the the historical accuracy of of sort of like what she dealt with and kind of, you know, how she, handled the flight and the things that she sort of encountered was, was largely accurate. And, yeah, she did. The weather was so bad, it did blow her way off course. And she did end up in an Ireland in a cow pasture and, and, you know, it’s, you know, it’s one of those really famous stories that sort of makes her, America’s sweetheart, you know, keeps, gives, gives her that status of America’s sweetheart.

00:25:33:19 – 00:25:49:05
Chris Williamson
You know, she arrives, you know, in Ireland and, and the guys, like, you know, when you come far and she’s like, come from America. You know, she she knew she was she knew what she was doing. She knew she had made it. I can’t imagine whether you land in the right spot or not just to touch ground.

00:25:49:05 – 00:26:04:22
Chris Williamson
After what she went through, I got to imagine you. She made it technically, even though she didn’t end up on the same spot that she planned out to be. She did, you know, make it across the Atlantic. And I can’t imagine the weight off her shoulders and really the vindication, right, that she probably must have felt, internally at that time.

00:26:04:22 – 00:26:20:27
Chris Williamson
You know, maybe we’ll never know because she never really talked about herself in a, in a really, like, a pompous way or anything. If she talked any kind of business at all, it was just about women in general, women in aviation. And women can do the things that men could do, and all that jazz. But yeah, I mean, it largely gets it, right.

00:26:20:27 – 00:26:27:09
Chris Williamson
I mean, for the most part, again, broad, broad strokes, but pretty accurate for what she had to endure.

00:26:27:11 – 00:26:48:19
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, I could imagine what that would be like, especially because that first flight she was mostly a, I mean, a passenger you mentioned, you know, she did have some some control there too, but not she wasn’t the pilot, which is what she wanted to do. And then I can imagine with, people like Eleanor Smith who was actually a great pilot, and I, I could imagine internally, you’re starting to feel like, can I actually do this?

00:26:48:22 – 00:26:57:23
Dan LeFebvre
Like, is this something I could actually do, starting to have some of those doubts. So just imagine. Yeah, that has to be a huge weight off. Like, yeah, I, I can do this.

00:26:57:26 – 00:27:22:18
Chris Williamson
You can do it. And in that Vega which is a gorgeous planet. And the Smithsonian, I’ve stood underneath it. It’s such a beautiful plane. And, you know, a very strong plane for its time. But by today’s standards, it’s, you know, very basic, very unforgiving, very loud. Imagine navigating a flight like that with, you know, no GPS, no modern instruments, you know, near freezing temperatures, rain dumped on your face and then doing it alone.

00:27:22:18 – 00:27:38:18
Chris Williamson
Right? I mean, doing it alone. You have nobody you can really talk to. You have no one to lean on. It’s just you and that ocean. And, it must have been horrifying. But she was, you know, she she loved it. It’s all she ever wanted to do from the first moment she saw it. And it clicked for her.

00:27:38:18 – 00:27:55:27
Chris Williamson
It was what she wanted. And I think, she just didn’t see, you know, she saw the fear. But I don’t know. I can’t really explain her fearlessness. It was kind of different, which makes her very final moments historically recorded, that much more haunting, which we’ll get to toward the end. Yeah.

00:27:55:29 – 00:28:16:25
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. I love that you mentioned, you know, as you were saying, I was like, I gotta I gotta use GPS to get to the grocery store, right? I mean, these days we just rely on it, right? It’s just so right. You just comin. You just doesn’t matter. You just get used to that and just follow that line. Or, you know, when you’re falling asleep while you’re driving, I’m gonna roll the window down a little bit and be a little cool, but that’s a whole other level of just an open cockpit and and altitude and.

00:28:16:25 – 00:28:17:21
Dan LeFebvre
Oof! Yeah.

00:28:17:23 – 00:28:27:22
Chris Williamson
How loud? Yeah. And how loud. It must have been the whole time. And you’re, you know. Yeah. All that, just all that together would have been very difficult to overcome at that time.

00:28:27:25 – 00:28:47:04
Dan LeFebvre
Well, in the movie there are a few achievements that are really just mentioned only briefly. There’s a headline that says Amelia took an auto gyro of 19,000ft to set a new altitude record. There’s another one that mentions her being the first to achieve a solo flight from Hawaii to California. These are all just kind of headlines that we see passed by very quickly in the movie.

00:28:47:04 – 00:28:54:13
Dan LeFebvre
But can you fill in some more historical details around some of the aviation records that Emily Earhart set in the movie, that it doesn’t really show us?

00:28:54:16 – 00:29:15:20
Chris Williamson
Yeah. The Autobots, I mean, I can flesh it out a little bit. The auto gyro is one of my favorite stories. It was sort of like this. It was sort of like a helicopter. It was like a like a prototype helicopter kind of aircraft. She took it up. 19th hour. Not quite nice about it was a little over 18,000ft, but pretty close to 19,000ft, you know, promptly crashed it.

00:29:15:22 – 00:29:34:26
Chris Williamson
You know, came down after the crash was fine. It was like. Yeah. You know, your auto gyro needs some improvements. But she said. But she set a record in it. So, you know, she did that, obviously. Big one. First woman to fly solo across the Atlantic in 32. We talked about that. You know, it was the Distinguished Flying Cross was a big deal across of the night of the Legion of Honor.

00:29:35:02 – 00:29:56:15
Chris Williamson
From France. I want to say, and, you know, she received a lot of awards for that, a lot of accolades. You know, first person, as you mentioned, a fly from Hawaii to California, a much, much funner flight than going across, the Atlantic. But, you know, it’s still very dangerous, 24,500 miles of ocean, I’m not mistaken.

00:29:56:18 – 00:30:11:23
Chris Williamson
And, you know, not even Lindbergh had done it, you know? So, like, she was, she was now. So she had done what Lindbergh had done. And she’s like, all right, now I’m going to take this five steps forward now, and I’m just going to make the history books, not forget about Charles Lindbergh, but I’m going to dwarf Charles Lindbergh.

00:30:11:25 – 00:30:28:18
Chris Williamson
You know, she really I felt that she really wanted to do that because she wanted to do it for women. She, you know, I mean, it was the. I think that was the first. It was the first flight from the from the mainland US to Hawaii, if I’m not mistaken. I could be wrong, man or woman, but I think it was the first flight.

00:30:28:21 – 00:30:46:17
Chris Williamson
She flew across the, in 32. She also flew across the US, the United States, the continental United States, a Los Angeles to New Jersey, which is soon, which is interesting when you look at the the, disappearance stuff and some of the theories, and, speed records, you know, lots of speed records and other distance records.

00:30:46:24 – 00:31:10:10
Chris Williamson
She won some races, you know, she really boned up her navigation skills over time. And the for in those couple of years, you know, from 28 to like 32, 33, 34, 35, really try to get better. She flew from Mexico City to New Jersey, I believe, as well, and Los Angeles to Mexico City, like, so a bunch of, like a little, little flights, not little flights, but a bunch of smaller flights.

00:31:10:13 – 00:31:38:08
Chris Williamson
But she was just racking up records and racking up altitude records and speed records and all these things all along the way, and just becoming a better, you know, pilot. And then she sort of shifted into becoming sort of, this bigger than, bigger than just a pilot face, for women in aviation, for women in general, not just in aviation, but, aviation was sort of the, a launching pad for, for women to do things in general that she felt, they should be already doing.

00:31:38:10 – 00:31:59:17
Dan LeFebvre
I’m curious how much of that was pressure from George as PR because you think, you know, with PR, it’s s easier to to sell our new record a new something. And you know how much of that was her wanting to push, beyond Lindbergh and and promote women in aviation? How much of that was George B like, oh, we gotta top what we did last time.

00:31:59:17 – 00:32:01:18
Dan LeFebvre
Make a new record, do this?

00:32:01:21 – 00:32:25:22
Chris Williamson
Yeah. Both. Both. Sure. She she had her own reasons, certainly, for doing it. You know, don’t get me wrong, she, she loved, the fame, but I think she loved the fame for different reasons. I really think she saw the fame as a catalyst to get what she ultimately wanted, which was a women into the forefront of, you know, what would become modern day aviation at the time.

00:32:25:24 – 00:32:49:23
Chris Williamson
So, you know, George certainly pushed for more records, more flights, you know, it bumped up her lecture costs. It bumped up her, you know, more books. It bumped up, you know, more appearances. She was everywhere christening the cars. I mean, doing all kinds. I mean, the blimps, you know, she’d come out, she’d make an appearance somewhere, like a planned appearance.

00:32:49:25 – 00:33:07:24
Chris Williamson
And, you know, there would be 10,000 people there to see her. I mean, you know, insane for this is, you know, in the 20s and the 30s. So this is, you know, you think, you think this would be someone that was modern, but this was like a Taylor Swift before Taylor Swift. This was like, you know, think pick any real famous female celebrity now, and you think I’m a celebrity.

00:33:07:24 – 00:33:24:04
Chris Williamson
Really? And it’s really she is that before them, which is really kind of interesting. She kind of set the groundwork for it. And then, you know, I think that kind of rolls into her role with Purdue kind of to kind of take it back to Purdue. I mean, that was when she really started speaking a lot more in the lecture circuit.

00:33:24:04 – 00:33:46:29
Chris Williamson
That’s when Edward Kelly comes along, sees her speaking, brings her into Purdue. You know, she’s, the first woman to receive a National Aeronautic Association license. You know, she’s one of the now, not the but one of the very first female instructors in aviation at her role at Purdue. Like, really amplifies that. And not to mention, she’s the president and the co-founder of the 99, which was is still going right now.

00:33:47:03 – 00:34:08:07
Chris Williamson
So, I mean, it’s, you know, not bad for someone whose career. But when you think about this, when she met George Putnam was 1928. She was gone in 37. So not even ten years later, she was gone. And, what’s really interesting about Earhart and what they try to maybe I’ll touch more on this at the end is, you know, we never really got to see her age.

00:34:08:10 – 00:34:29:27
Chris Williamson
We never got to see her become like this old, feeble woman. We didn’t see her die. And, you know, as an old lady in a bed, we just kind of saw her fly off into the sunset, and we don’t have a period on the end of that sentence, which is what makes films like 2009. Amelia was, you know, the one we’re talking about today and and flight for freedom and all those other films that that have been made over the years that have tie to Earhart in one shape, one way or another.

00:34:30:00 – 00:34:40:01
Chris Williamson
You know, it makes them very significant. And, you know, Amelia is one of those films I think that probably did it, probably did it best, you know, so far out of all the films. But, you know, there’s always room for improvement. Of course.

00:34:40:03 – 00:34:58:28
Dan LeFebvre
What were her lectures like? Was she teaching more like, teaching how to be a pilot? Because also we learned earlier, like her experience as a pilot was she admitted, was not as great as some others. Or was she more just kind of recounting her adventures? Well, I call them adventures, but, you know, terrifying adventures in some of them.

00:34:58:28 – 00:35:04:04
Dan LeFebvre
But, you know, these flights was was it more just kind of here’s what I’ve done or is it more teaching?

00:35:04:06 – 00:35:21:22
Chris Williamson
I think it was a little bit of both. She talked on the lecture circuit for sure. For sure. She was talking about her, her adventurous, great work. I mean, that’s exactly what she would probably have used. And, you know, but when it came to being in the classroom, I mean, this is a woman who, you know, gritty was in the classroom, spent time, you know, she ate at Purdue.

00:35:21:23 – 00:35:49:04
Chris Williamson
She lived, you know, she stayed at Purdue. I mean, she was there. She was all in, and in the classrooms. I think it was more of a, you know, talking to women, motivating women, being in the classroom, being one on one, with female students, male students, they also had built she had also gotten Purdue to build a, a mechanics lab, an aviation mechanics lab that was going to be there, that was going to be, was going to sort of take the spotlight when she returned from the world flight.

00:35:49:09 – 00:36:19:18
Chris Williamson
And it was just, a lab that, you know, anybody, male or female, could go in there and tinker with engines and could, you know, look at the ins and outs of the mechanics of how airplanes worked. And not just airplanes, but just, you know, other things. They called her the Electra, the flying laboratory, because she was going to take, you know, air samples, water samples, land samples from all around the world and bring those back to Purdue, so they can sort of study maybe parts of the world that hadn’t really been heavily traveled yet, or at least by modern people.

00:36:19:21 – 00:36:36:09
Chris Williamson
And, you know, that, again, ties into some of the theory and some of the some of the disappearance ideas and stuff. But, you know, she was definitely she was lecturing, broad spectrum, broad strokes, talking about her adventures. And then in the classroom, it allowed her to get into the more nitty gritty and get, you know, one on one with people.

00:36:36:09 – 00:36:40:04
Chris Williamson
And she did both very well to a very, very high degree.

00:36:40:06 – 00:36:47:06
Dan LeFebvre
That ties right into what you’re talking about, you know, her wanting to push women in Stem, I mean, lead by example, right? It seems like that’s exactly what she was doing.

00:36:47:09 – 00:37:06:16
Chris Williamson
Absolutely. She was the definition of like, you know, the say like a real leader is, is going to be there with you. They’re not going to be shouting instructions. They’re going to be doing it. And she she was doing it. I mean, she wasn’t you know, this is a woman who had God, I couldn’t even tell you how many different jobs that she had to, to, to support her flying.

00:37:06:18 – 00:37:25:28
Chris Williamson
Now again, there has been some new information that’s come out, that would, maybe make you look at things a little bit differently. But, you know, I would say that wasn’t in the movie, for instance, it’s part of Laurie’s book. I it’s it’s kind of a big spoiler, but the book’s out now, so people can kind of can read it for themselves.

00:37:26:01 – 00:37:48:10
Chris Williamson
But Laurie’s one of Laurie’s big revelations in the book is that Amelia Earhart had, And this is her word, not mine. Had a sugar daddy. I had a much wealthier, older guy who actually bought her cars and bought her, you know, some of her plane. Not not her Electra, of course, but early in her career. And, so, you know, the whole idea of her having all these jobs and everything, that certainly did happen.

00:37:48:10 – 00:38:12:13
Chris Williamson
But, you know, she was a woman, and she knew how to use her, you know, her feminine wiles to use a term I hate. A but I just don’t have anything else to say, to kind of come up with. That’s better. I would say that she knew how to how to sort of flip that switch. I compare her a lot, to a Marilyn Monroe type figure where if you look at Marilyn’s history, Marilyn, and in the films and books and all that stuff, Marilyn could turn it on like a switch.

00:38:12:16 – 00:38:32:13
Chris Williamson
You know, she was very, very kind of a quiet, private person. But when she was in front of the media, it’s like, you know, okay, got to turn it on, got to go to work. And that’s kind of what what Earhart did. But she had, you know, she used everything in her power that she had to be able to acquire again, mission first, more than anything else, she had a she had a dream and she wanted to achieve it.

00:38:32:13 – 00:38:34:25
Chris Williamson
And damn, whatever she had to do to do it.

00:38:34:25 – 00:38:52:28
Dan LeFebvre
Well, we’ve talked a lot about the events, but something we haven’t really talked about much, a little bit here, but obviously everybody. Well, spoiler alert, we know what’s going to happen. But throughout the movie interspersed, we see Amelia’s flight around the world with Fred Noonan, and it’s not really till the end of the movie that it starts to focus on that flight.

00:38:52:28 – 00:39:13:07
Dan LeFebvre
So there’s a lot we can talk about with that. But according to the way it’s set up in the movie, it starts in Miami, June 1st, 1937, and that’s when Amelia meets Fred for what looks like in the movie. The first time. The movie suggests that he was hired for the flight because he’s the best celestial navigator of that time, and for Amelia’s flight around the world to be successful.

00:39:13:09 – 00:39:30:07
Dan LeFebvre
There’s one part that she’ll really need his help with, and that’s finding this tiny island called Howland Island, which is positioned roughly halfway between Papua New Guinea and Hawaii. The problem, according to the movie, is that Howland Island is less than two miles long, no, no taller than 18ft, making it next to impossible to see in the expanse of the ocean.

00:39:30:14 – 00:39:48:03
Dan LeFebvre
But that’s why it’s important to find, because, according to the movie, again, refueling mid-air is something beyond Amelia’s skill level. So they’d have to land to refuel and then finish the journey. Does the movie correctly set up the reasons why Fred Noonan joined Amelia Earhart as her navigator for the flight around the world?

00:39:48:05 – 00:40:06:26
Chris Williamson
Yeah, it doesn’t go into a lot. It touches on certain aspects of of Noonan’s character and who he was. You know, you put it perfectly. I couldn’t put it better myself. I say this all the time in media. If you were going to do a flight of that magnitude, that would be the guy that you would want to have on board the flight with you.

00:40:07:00 – 00:40:29:21
Chris Williamson
No question. If you look at his history, he was a big, big reason why Panam was was able to map so much of the Pacific that they were able to map, in the Atlantic as well. He was, a skilled, skilled celestial navigator, and he was the best in the world. And she believed in him. And, you know, it was it was important for Noonan.

00:40:29:21 – 00:40:52:14
Chris Williamson
He. This is a guy who was newly remarried at the time of of the flight, and he had dreams of his own. I think he he wanted to ultimately wanted to set up a navigation school post-World flight. I think he again, not only Amelia, but Fred and of course, and George Putnam, they were all looking at this flight as a way to basically set their life, for the back half of their careers.

00:40:52:16 – 00:41:16:21
Chris Williamson
And so, you know, it largely gets, you know, Noonan accurate. He did have a drinking problem. We talk about this all the time on the show. We’ve debated it heavily, unvarnished. A lot of experts now will tell you that a drunk Noonan is was probably better than 90% of sober navigators at the time. And, that Noonan was sort of a functional alcoholic.

00:41:16:21 – 00:41:39:04
Chris Williamson
So he could drink. You can get kind of plastered the night before, and he could show up for work and do his job, you know, to a very high ability, the next day. Now, Erhard didn’t like that. He drank. Clearly, it takes us back to the friendship flight. Takes us back to her. You know, her days with her father when you know they want to play cowboys and Indians and, you know, he would stumble in the house drunk, obviously, and they wouldn’t be able to, you know, play with them.

00:41:39:04 – 00:41:59:15
Chris Williamson
And he had to go pass out and, you know, so she really I mean, the alcoholism ran really deep, with her when it came to, you know, men and alcoholism. So, you know, Noonan, was a very excellent navigator, but he, you know, he had some demons. He had some issues. He respected Earhart. Earhart respected him.

00:41:59:18 – 00:42:17:13
Chris Williamson
I think they respect each other’s professional abilities. And, there’s even a quote somewhere in Oakland. I think early, or maybe even it was in Miami. And maybe I had him thinking about it where she was asked, about Fred Noonan, about navigation or about being lost, you know, making sure that Howland was something that they could hit.

00:42:17:15 – 00:42:37:27
Chris Williamson
Excuse me, could hit. And her response, I’m paraphrasing, was, I brought the best navigator in the world to make sure that that doesn’t happen, that, you know, we hit Howland, that we make it, we we finish our flight and we come home. She believed in him. Very much so. Yeah. How he met her, how he convinced her, you know, sort of the way they they talked and had their conversations.

00:42:38:00 – 00:42:47:20
Chris Williamson
He he was her best bet, and she knew it, and, she took a gamble, and it turns out it didn’t work out, you know? So, but, yeah, she believed it 100%.

00:42:47:27 – 00:43:02:28
Dan LeFebvre
So. Well, you touched on something briefly that we see in the movie, because the last stop in the movie that we see before Howland Island is in Papua New Guinea. And while they’re there, Fred and Amelia grab drinks a little bar to rest for the evening before taking off the next day. And then, of course, watching the movie.

00:43:03:01 – 00:43:24:24
Dan LeFebvre
We know what’s going to happen. It’s like watching the Titanic. You kind of know how you know what is going to happen at the end. But as I was watching this scene, I couldn’t help but pick up and at least two red flags that seem to suggest that there’s a problem. And one is that the movie implied Fred had a drinking problem, although he did flat out tell Amelia at one point in the movie that, his drinking has never affected his work.

00:43:24:24 – 00:43:44:04
Dan LeFebvre
Which kind of goes back to what you were talking about being a functional, alcoholic. But then secondly, after Amelia and Fred take off from Papua New Guinea, the guy at the airfield, a guy named Mr. Balfour, radios George Putnam to say that the headwinds were stronger than a million. Fred thought. So their plane had to use about 9% more fuel than they calculated.

00:43:44:06 – 00:44:00:22
Dan LeFebvre
And then on top of that, Mr. Balfour tries to hail them on the radio to let them know about this, but he’s not successful in doing that. So that tells me that perhaps a million Fred would be surprised by running out of fuel faster than they expected. Is there any truth to these potential problems as they left Papua New Guinea?

00:44:00:25 – 00:44:20:09
Chris Williamson
Oh yeah. Yeah, there’s a lot, the, the, Tom Detweiler, who was on our show, who was the operations manager for Titanic. And his resume is insane. He told me something that’s always stuck with me. And I say it every time I get the chance to say. And a lot of these accidents. It’s not. It’s never just one thing.

00:44:20:09 – 00:44:46:25
Chris Williamson
It’s the sum of a lot of little things that lead up to the end result. What we have. Right. One of those, surely. We’ll talk about a few of them. One was. Wait, they were really, really concerned about the aircraft. Amelia, was it has been quoted in papers leading up to that takeoff in particular. They have the take off in life or Howland she kept saying she was flying it weighted capacity, which is an interesting way to say it.

00:44:46:27 – 00:45:13:00
Chris Williamson
And they were throwing out everything you can imagine, including the raft, including some things that you would. That kind of boggles the mind. She left her pistol there. There’s a lot of things. They were counting the ounces, essentially, because they knew that, Lockheed’s specs, were meant that the the plane couldn’t weigh, more than a certain amount on a paved runway with a certain length to take off.

00:45:13:00 – 00:45:27:25
Chris Williamson
And they were they weren’t on a page from the way they were on a grass runway. As a matter of fact, there is footage of that last takeoff. You can see it on YouTube of them, actually. People at least shooting them, taking off, getting up onto the aircraft and taking off. By the way, Fred Noonan does not look drunk.

00:45:27:25 – 00:45:46:15
Chris Williamson
Not in the slightest. When they do that, and I will say, and I did mean to say this, I apologize. This is my fault. The the you did ask earlier, the movie does indicate that they met on, in Miami. They had flown previously together, so they that that is inaccurate. Technically, they had met each other and they he would he had been involved earlier in the flight.

00:45:46:15 – 00:46:04:22
Chris Williamson
They had the whole ground loop incident had a reverse course. That’s kind of a whole nother thing. But again, some of a lot of little things. Right. So, the headwinds certainly, the fuel certainly. That’s a big, big, big point of contention when it comes to theory. How much fuel did they actually leave late with?

00:46:04:24 – 00:46:27:04
Chris Williamson
Everything you’re talking about when it comes to Harry Balfour is 100% accurate. He tried to get in touch with them. He tried to, couldn’t receive the the, the Earhart. Noonan couldn’t receive his transmissions. They finally did receive his transmissions. And, they seemed to sort of, you know, make the adjustments and necessary adjustments needed to, to combat headwinds and things of that nature.

00:46:27:04 – 00:46:43:03
Chris Williamson
But, you know, we don’t know what was going on in the aircraft, essentially. That’s kind of the that’s kind of the rough part. And yeah, you’re right. If they had not anticipated those headwinds, now, a lot of people would say that the headwinds were, well, well known, in that in that part of the world at that time.

00:46:43:06 – 00:47:15:02
Chris Williamson
And there’s about half the people that would say that they weren’t discovered. Those headwinds that had been shipped wasn’t discovered until like five years after they were in the area. So headwinds would have been a big, factor in the end result and so would have obviously fuel and the lack of fuel. Which brings us to sort of, you know, the end of the of the film when there, you know, she’s saying all these really well known, historically famous lines, like we must, you know, we must be on you, but I cannot see you were on one five, seven, three, three, seven flying north and south, you know, all that stuff.

00:47:15:02 – 00:47:24:21
Chris Williamson
And her last word that she ever spoke on record was the word wait, which is an interesting, interesting word to choose as your last word.

00:47:24:23 – 00:47:44:02
Dan LeFebvre
Obviously the weight has would factor into the fuel, but would it also factor into speaking of of Howland? Just being a smaller island, being able to take off when you, as you were saying, that was part of the concern of weight, not as much getting there, but being able to take off from the island again.

00:47:44:04 – 00:47:58:19
Chris Williamson
Yeah, I think so. Taking off, in both cases from not only from Lee, but, you know, trying to anticipate Howland. Howland would have given him a little bit more run, a little bit more room to to run, to kind of get up off the ground and take off. And as you said, it was 18ft off the ground.

00:47:58:19 – 00:48:17:13
Chris Williamson
You know, lay was certainly not if you look at, them taking off and lay a lot of the, the bystanders, the witnesses said that it looked like they just the flame just went right off the cliff. And luckily she was able to like, you know, pull that stick and there was able to bear I mean, they barely they were in circles over the water until they were able to get enough, you know, between them on the water to get up off of it.

00:48:17:13 – 00:48:46:25
Chris Williamson
They almost died right there. You know, so Howland would have been a different situation because it’s obviously not the same, topography. And it’s not the same, you know, high three thing. But they had they also had the Itasca there, you know, off the coast of Howland, that’s also portrayed in the film. The Itasca was there and that they were there to do their job, which was to bring them in, help assist, bring them in, help them with R&R, get them, you know, rested up, refueled, and get them off to Hawaii to finish the last leg of the flight.

00:48:46:27 – 00:49:12:26
Chris Williamson
And, even with the Itasca there, you know, and the Itasca pulling the signals that they were pulling and all that stuff like they talked about at the end of the film, or that they show you at the end of the film. It’s it’s one of history’s greatest mysteries when it comes to why they couldn’t communicate with each other and why they couldn’t see each other, and why when Leo Ballard stepped outside the radio room expecting to see her coming right over on top of the Itasca, he didn’t see them anywhere.

00:49:12:26 – 00:49:23:10
Chris Williamson
And that was kind of mind boggling to the radio room operators, you know, as especially when they were pulling consistent signal strength and, like they were at the end of the film.

00:49:23:12 – 00:49:43:24
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. I want to ask you about some of the details that we see in the movie, because we do see the Itasca, US Coast Guard cutter, anchored at Howland. And then they can hear Amelia’s transmissions, but she can’t seem to hear the replies. The attempts for Morse code don’t work either. According to George Putnam in the movie, they didn’t even take the receiver in a way, perhaps because of the weight thing.

00:49:43:24 – 00:50:09:15
Dan LeFebvre
So, it’s mostly a one way conversation. But then, to make matters worse, in the movie, someone accidentally left the direction finder on the Itasca on overnight. So the battery is dead. That means they can’t pinpoint her plane’s location. And then after a few communications from Amelia to Itasca, there’s a there is a brief moment where Amelia does seem to hear something back from Itasca, along with Itasca, is blowing smoke in an attempt to send a visual signal for their location.

00:50:09:18 – 00:50:27:10
Dan LeFebvre
And then the final radio transmission to Itasca in the movie says they’re on position line 157337 and they’re running north South. Itasca hears this and immediately radios back. If she can receive their transmissions and the radio is silent, is that really how Amelia Earhart and Fred Noonan disappeared?

00:50:27:12 – 00:50:49:01
Chris Williamson
That’s right. Yeah. The some of a lot of little things. Right. I mean, it really it really ended up being, just a very unfortunate set of events. You know, Leo Belle Arts was, flabbergasted by it. And he was, you know, he kept that with him his whole life. He was the last real eyewitness. You know, he was talking.

00:50:49:01 – 00:51:05:06
Chris Williamson
He wasn’t making, as you mentioned, two way radio communication with them, but he was speaking to them and he could hear her speaking. So they, you know, they just couldn’t hear each other. You’re right. And, you know, again, to take it all the way back to the ground loop, you know, it wasn’t always just Earhart and Noonan.

00:51:05:08 – 00:51:21:19
Chris Williamson
It was actually going to be a larger crew. And one of the people on the crew was a man by the name of Harry Manning, who there was also remember that Earhart had slept with and had an affair with earlier in her career. But he was an expert at Morse code, and he could have given them a lot more options.

00:51:21:23 – 00:51:40:09
Chris Williamson
You know, he could have Noonan could have done the navigations while he took the radios. You know, that’s kind of what they did on the flight over from Oakland to Hawaii, which was the first leg of the original flight. This is prior to March 20th of 37, when she ground loops of the aircraft in Hawaii, and they have to change directions and rebuild the aircraft and all that jazz.

00:51:40:11 – 00:52:03:21
Chris Williamson
But she, you know, if they had had Manning on board, we might not be sitting here having this conversation right now. It might be a very different historical you know, piece right now. Right now, though, we have really no oil slick, no wreckage, no, no evidence of of anything other than the had the original Itasca call logs.

00:52:03:23 – 00:52:28:25
Chris Williamson
My co-host for vanished, Jen Taylor. You know, I love she says this, and I love it. If this is a modern day domestic violence murder case, the Itasca call logs are the final text messages between the couple. Like, that’s that’s basically kind of what we’ve got. And then we’ve got, about 88 years, almost 90 years, some couple of years now, of theory, of theory, all over the world.

00:52:28:27 – 00:52:54:03
Chris Williamson
That puts them in all kinds of different, you know, situations all over the world. And so, you know, the film kind of. So the film is largely based off of, a book or the work of a gentleman by the name of Elgin Long, who was a, a pioneering aviator and, one of the really if there was going to be a mount Rushmore of of Earhart researchers, he would be one of the four for sure.

00:52:54:05 – 00:53:23:01
Chris Williamson
And it was based a lot on his work. And in the his theory was that they did just run out of gas. And they did they did just fall short of Howland. And they are somewhere in the Pacific Ocean, 16 or 18,000ft down. And, that it will be it will be recovered one day, whether it’s by one of these people that are out here searching for it specifically, or whether it’s by some, like fiber optic cable company that’s going to map the underwater ocean and just kind of stumble across the aircraft one day, you know, but it was largely based on Elgin’s, Elgin’s, research.

00:53:23:01 – 00:53:44:19
Chris Williamson
And they posit that she ran out of gas. A lot of people agree with that. And, a lot of what we have in that, some of a lot of little things kind of adds up to them running out of gas and just ending up on the water. The question is, you’re looking for, an aircraft that’s got a 55.5ft wingspan, 39.5ft long in an area that’s roughly the size of Texas at about $2 million a day.

00:53:44:21 – 00:53:53:20
Chris Williamson
So it’s it’s very, very difficult to to search an area of that big, and, you know, that’s kind of where we are now, you know, 88 years later.

00:53:53:22 – 00:54:09:07
Dan LeFebvre
Which is even more I mean, in the movie, they’re talking about how hard it would be to find Howland, and that’s an island that’s, you know, miles long. I mean, just a couple of miles. But, that’s more than an airplane in the same expanse. Right? So that was the whole difficulty. Yeah, I can imagine.

00:54:09:07 – 00:54:31:15
Chris Williamson
Yeah, yeah. And I think a lot of people, a lot of the theories, you know, whether that you believe in Japanese capture or crash and sink, you know, they believe the plane’s a buka, or do you believe the plane’s never going to be found? It’s under a runway in Taipan. Or, you know, whatever you subscribe to. You know, everybody kind of kind of tends to agree on on on that point, you know, they, they, they, they just ran it a lot of, a lot of bad stuff that day.

00:54:31:15 – 00:54:49:13
Chris Williamson
And, you know, we just don’t have an ending to it. So that’s kind of that’s kind of what leaves us, to this point leads us to this point rather 88 years later. And then all the the fallout around her disappearance and their disappearance, I should say, you know, in 1937, July of 1937. So just a few weeks ago, we just had the anniversary now.

00:54:49:13 – 00:55:11:06
Dan LeFebvre
So what the movie does end with the disappearance. But as you as you mentioned before, I mean, the 2009 version might be the best one, but let’s say you’re that’s still like 16 years ago as of this recording. So let’s say you’re in charge of directing the next biopic about Earhart’s life. What’s something you want to make sure got included that we don’t get to see in the 2009 movie?

00:55:11:08 – 00:55:51:27
Chris Williamson
You know, there is a so there’s a presentation, I just attended. It’s and it’s I’m biased because it’s by a really good friend. Her name is Doctor Margie Arnold, and, she does a presentation, and, we just attended at the Earhart Birthplace Museum, during the Earhart Festival. And it her presentation concentrates on the four years leading up to the moment that she is selected for transatlantic, and that she, in Margie, gives incredible detail about not only her relationship with Sam Chapman, who I kind of teased about earlier in the conversation, but everything that Amelia was setting herself up to be and do and maybe an alternate career as a social worker,

00:55:52:04 – 00:56:14:26
Chris Williamson
Margie states. And I tend to believe her that she would if she really had a chance at being like the next Jane Addams. Like she really could have been. I, you know, I think that, Earhart was a woman that, you know, she was pre-med at one point at Columbia. You know, she was a nurse’s aide and World War one, she was a photographer, a truck driver, also, obviously an aviator.

00:56:14:26 – 00:56:37:27
Chris Williamson
I mean, she did, you know, all kinds of stuff. And, you know, that’s just the kind of woman that we’re dealing with, you know, here at the center of of all this. But I would probably concentrate, I would build that that film, and concentrated on those four years I would cast as Sam Chapman, would do all of that stuff, and I would look into the nitty gritty details of the moment before, and I would end the film.

00:56:37:29 – 00:57:00:23
Chris Williamson
On her walking into Platinum’s office and being selected for the transatlantic flight, because everybody kind of knows from 28 on to 37, you know, it’s there’s always more room to cover, but that that nine year period is like really covered, aggressively. This four years, not so much. So I think that would be really fun. How Laurie’s book did a great, great job of diving into some of that as well.

00:57:00:23 – 00:57:05:06
Chris Williamson
But I think a real hard concentration on that would be would make a really fun film.

00:57:05:09 – 00:57:17:18
Dan LeFebvre
Well, I have a couple of follow ups on that one. From everything you’ve learned about Millie Earhart, how well do you think Hilary Swank did bringing her movie to life and for your biopic, who would you cast in that role?

00:57:17:21 – 00:57:36:07
Chris Williamson
I would cast a young Amelia. Her name is Sophia Lillis. I don’t know how old she is now. She is 23 now. And I, I found her, I saw her first in the it films, the remake, the when they did the, you know, back in 20. Oh, I don’t know when I was 2017 or something like that.

00:57:36:09 – 00:57:51:29
Chris Williamson
And she was excellent on those films. And I thought, man, that’s an Earhart. Like, if you wanted to take a young Earhart like a younger version of her and make, you know, kind of build to that 28 flight or, you know, take her through her, her young or her late teenage years and maybe her early 20s. That would be a really she would be perfect for it.

00:57:52:01 – 00:58:09:10
Chris Williamson
As far as Hillary, you know, I think she did it. I think she did a fantastic job. I also thought Diane Keaton did a really good job in her film. I mean, I think everybody sort of brings something to Earhart specifically. She’s got a lot of little nuances and things. I think Earhart got a lot of the ticks down, I think.

00:58:09:10 – 00:58:25:04
Chris Williamson
I’m sorry. Hilary Swank got a lot of the ticks down. For Earhart. I think she got a lot of her. Her cadences down, her nuances. Just, you know, some of her facial expressions were pretty on point, like a few, because there’s a lot of video and a lot of pictures of Earhart out there. So it’s it’s not somebody that we don’t have anything.

00:58:25:04 – 00:58:39:14
Chris Williamson
She’s not a ghost. She was at the time she disappeared. The most photographed person on the face of the earth. So, yeah, I think Hilary Swank did a good job. I mean, she’s a two time Oscar winner. I mean, I, I when I saw that she was being, you know, she was going to do the role, I thought it was a good fit.

00:58:39:16 – 00:58:52:08
Chris Williamson
I’ve seen. And the Earhart Birthplace Museum has a bunch of her outfits, as a matter of fact, the the one on the poster with the A.E., the jumpsuit that she has, which she never really had, but it was a it was a jumpsuit that they put her in for the movie and just for the promo and stuff.

00:58:52:08 – 00:59:05:28
Chris Williamson
That’s in the Birthplace Museum. The one that Hilary Swank wore in the film and stuff. And so that’s kind of cool. We got to, you know, shoot a bunch of our documentary stuff on that backdrop of her, her suits and her stuff that she wore in the film. So, but I liked it. I thought, I thought they did a good job.

00:59:05:28 – 00:59:12:28
Chris Williamson
I thought Richard Geer was great as platinum. Richard Gears got that really great. He can he can be charming, but he could also be, you know, a jerk.

00:59:13:00 – 00:59:18:28
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Sounds like George Putnam being interviewed. You got. You decide. Yeah.

00:59:19:00 – 00:59:41:27
Chris Williamson
Yeah. There’s a there’s a there’s a double. There’s two sides to that for sure. But, you know, I thought she did a great job. Hilary Swank is a fantastic actress. I mean, her catalog is really great. And, you know, it’s a hard role to play. She’s a very, Earhart’s a very complex person. And, I so if I was directing, I would love to bring somebody in, like, Sophia Lillis and just have her just go to town on it and just do a young version of it.

00:59:41:27 – 00:59:59:07
Chris Williamson
You know, when she was when she was a social worker, when she was doing all that stuff. And because I think she forms a lot of those relationships that that end up being, valuable to her, you know, seven to 8 or 9 years later. Right? Right up until the point she disappears. That are really formed and built foundationally in those four years leading up to the transatlantic flight.

00:59:59:07 – 01:00:00:25
Chris Williamson
So I would focus on that.

01:00:00:27 – 01:00:19:03
Dan LeFebvre
Well, the 2009 Amelia movie ends with the disappearance, but I know there have been numerous times where people have claimed to have found Amelia Earhart plane, so correct me if I’m wrong. As far as I know, it hasn’t been found yet, but I know you’ve been doing years of research for the Chasing Earhart project, so I have a two part question for you as we wrap up our discussion today.

01:00:19:06 – 01:00:28:13
Dan LeFebvre
First, can you share an overview of the current status of finding Amelia Earhart plane? And can you tell my audience more about the chasing Earhart Project and where they can learn more about your work?

01:00:28:15 – 01:00:47:12
Chris Williamson
Oh, yes, I’d love to. So just a very, very quick, quick, the short, short version, there are several active investigations, all over the world, right now going on. I just got off the phone yesterday with, with our group, that’s going to be looking at this aircraft out in Boca, to try to rule it, rule it out and get it out of the way, or maybe, maybe roll it in.

01:00:47:12 – 01:01:18:23
Chris Williamson
We’ll see. There are deep ocean searches going on. There was a there’s a search going on, with, the Archeology channel and Doctor Rick Pettigrew. That has made a lot of headlines lately because Purdue got involved in that expedition, and they’re going out to Nick Morocco. I want to say in November, they’re going to go out there and they’re going to look at something called the Soraya object, which is an object that was found by brothers Mike and Robert Ashmore several years ago via some satellite imagery in a lagoon on the island of Nikumaroro.

01:01:18:26 – 01:01:35:17
Chris Williamson
Now, the folks at Tiger, a lot of the folks on what put words in their mouth. But I’m just basing this off sort of like media and things I’ve seen and watched and people I’ve talked to. Of course, there is a kind of a divide within, you know, the international Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery there. It’s part of Tiger.

01:01:35:17 – 01:01:53:23
Chris Williamson
Ric Gillespie and his and those those folks believe that, you know, hey, we’ve kind of we’ve kind of gone over this already. It’s not there. But Doctor Pettigrew and his team believe it’s it’s certainly warrants being looked at, and, Purdue’s in tow. That’s a big feather in their cap. And, they’re going out in November, so they’re going out in November.

01:01:53:29 – 01:02:11:24
Chris Williamson
We’re trying to go out sometime around that time as well for Buka. So hopefully we have some good final finality and clarification on two major theories at the end of this year. You never know though, with their heart stuff because it’s, it’s it’s all about money. It’s all about funding. It’s all about what Earhart was doing back in the day with her new funding and trying to get dollars raised.

01:02:11:27 – 01:02:33:12
Chris Williamson
So excuse me. So, there’s three different acting investigations going on right now. And there’s also, a lot of work going on for Japanese capture behind the scenes. It’s a little bit more of a slow burn, but that is is something that’s going to be, you know, uncovered in archives and things like that. It’s not going to be you’re not going to go out on some island and find an aircraft or anything.

01:02:33:14 – 01:02:49:18
Chris Williamson
If you believe in Japanese capture, you likely believe that the aircraft was destroyed and is buried under a runway in Sai Pan and is on a billion pieces that will never be found. So if that’s the case, then, you know, you’re you’re never going to find it. You’re just going to find some kind of, anecdotal or, documentation, you know, evidence.

01:02:49:18 – 01:03:08:23
Chris Williamson
So that’s being worked on. And then, you know, there’s always a few other things that are going on when it comes to Earhart. I’ve got projects coming out. Regarding some really exciting things I can’t talk about publicly yet. Really, I wish I could, but like, in a couple months, they’ll be released. But I would say just watch the Chasing Earhart podcast space and you’ll you’ll have all you need there.

01:03:08:25 – 01:03:29:11
Chris Williamson
As far as the show, just to wrap it up here, we’ve been going for, gosh, 140, 50 episodes ish right now. And, Lori, Gwen Shapiro’s our most recent episode just came out a couple of weeks ago. You can you can catch that on any pod catcher, any anywhere you listen to your podcast or, you know, we’re everywhere, pretty much.

01:03:29:13 – 01:03:48:00
Chris Williamson
And, the podcast aims to just sort of give a platform to everybody. That’s in the Earhart case, whether they’re on the disappearance side or the legacy side, whether they’re an author or a scientist or a historian or whatever it is, I, I don’t care. I want to hear from all of them. And, we’ve talked to pretty much everybody who’s anybody.

01:03:48:00 – 01:04:05:25
Chris Williamson
There’s a few notables that we haven’t talked to for specific reasons. But we will keep going. It’s it’s, you know, something? I rebranded this thing like 30 episodes or 40 episodes ago, and I was only trying to do 3 or 4 episodes, you know, back. And we just kept people kept coming forward and new stuff kept breaking, as it tends to do in this case.

01:04:05:25 – 01:04:23:25
Chris Williamson
And, I think that’s what we’ll have until the cases ultimately resolved, satisfactorily. That’s the big key question. Is it going to be satisfactory to everybody who has an idea about what may have happened to Earhart or Noonan on July 2nd? So that’s what the podcast is all about. I’ve also got a book out called Rabbit Hole The Vanishing of Amelia Earhart.

01:04:23:25 – 01:04:47:04
Chris Williamson
Fred Noonan, which was basically season one of our podcast, vanished. It’s unlike any book you’ve ever read on the case. I can guarantee you that it’s the format’s different. We’ve got over 60 collaborators all over the Earhart case in that book and in that podcast. It’s the largest collective, effort ever. On the disappearance of Earhart and Noonan, and that’s in bookstores right now, and it’s on Amazon and then Barnes and Noble and all that stuff.

01:04:47:04 – 01:04:52:02
Chris Williamson
So you can pick that up or listen to the podcast, or you can go check out Chasing Earhart.

01:04:52:05 – 01:04:58:13
Dan LeFebvre
Fantastic. I’ll make sure to add all those links in the show notes for this for anybody who’s watching. Thanks again so much for your time, Chris.

01:04:58:15 – 01:05:00:04
Chris Williamson
Absolutely. Thanks for having me, Dan. Appreciate it.

00:02:01:28 – 00:02:25:24
Dan LeFebvre
The movie starts off in Hong Kong in 1949. Since we know from history that Bruce Lee was born on November 27th, 1940, we can assume he’s 8 or 9, depending on when in 1949. This is happening in the movie. But almost right away we see the young Bruce Lee start training one on one with the IT man. Can you give us some background on Bruce Lee as a child?

00:02:26:00 – 00:02:30:07
Dan LeFebvre
And when he started training with Japan, like we see in the movie?

00:02:30:09 – 00:02:49:09
Matthew Polly
Sure. But first I just want to correct one thing that really annoys me about the first part of this movie and annoyed the Lee family, which is that, he wasn’t an only child living along with his father. He had a mother. He had three older siblings and a younger brother. So they were a, a big family.

00:02:49:12 – 00:03:09:03
Matthew Polly
And so this movie depicts him as almost being, you know, an orphan child with just a father around. So that’s the first thing that they, for some odd reason, decided to do. The second thing was, yeah, it. Man, he didn’t begin formal study of martial arts under it, man, as his master until he was 16 years old.

00:03:09:06 – 00:03:41:15
Matthew Polly
So they pushed this up very early. That’s fine that they did that. As far as Hollywood biopics go. This isn’t the worst, poetic license that they took. But no, he, the reason he started studying, kung fu was actually because he was in a gang, like, kind of a middle class gang. We weren’t, like, selling drugs or anything, but, he loved getting into fights, and so they would go around and start trouble on the streets of Hong Kong, which back in the 1950s was a much rougher place than it is today.

00:03:41:18 – 00:03:59:15
Matthew Polly
And he met this older boy by the name of William Chung, who was a better fighter than he was. And Bruce was so competitive, he hated the idea anyone was better, so he wanted to see why. And the reason was because William Chung was studying Wing Chun under it. Man. And so Bruce Lee said, hey, can I learn with you?

00:03:59:17 – 00:04:16:01
Matthew Polly
And he went, man. And Wong Shu Long, who was your senior student? And he said, I want to study with you. How long before I can beat up William Chung? So his his purpose in studying Wing Chun was not to like, protect himself from bullies. It was to become a better street fighter.

00:04:16:01 – 00:04:25:04
Dan LeFebvre
So it had nothing to do with in the movie. It’s like his father is the one that leads him there and kind of hold his hand. Yes, to the to the training. So not that at all.

00:04:25:06 – 00:04:52:02
Matthew Polly
Not that at all, in fact. So what is interesting is when Bruce was 7 or 8, his father tried to teach him tai chi because Bruce was a hyperactive kid. I joked that if he’d been born later, they’d have put him on Ritalin. So, Bruce didn’t like tai chi because it was for old people. And in fact, when he went to study Wing Chun, he didn’t tell his father because his father was so upset with him already for getting into all these fights.

00:04:52:05 – 00:05:00:04
Matthew Polly
And so he kept it a secret. And when his father found out, he was studying Wing Chun, he was furious. So it’s the complete opposite of how they told it in the story.

00:05:00:07 – 00:05:20:17
Dan LeFebvre
You mentioned, getting into a fight. And that leads into the next question, because according to the movie, this is, I think 1961, there’s a fight and a scene at the text on the screen tells us it’s at the Lantern Festival, and there’s some soldiers there. One of them happens to be the nephew of the assistant police inspector of Kowloon.

00:05:20:20 – 00:05:41:24
Dan LeFebvre
And Bruce gets into this fight with them. He ends up sending this sailor to the hospital with a punctured lung after getting into a fight. And this is when Bruce’s dad. And it’s. It’s interesting that you mention that there’s no other family around because, yeah, again, you don’t see anybody else. It’s just him and his dad. They’re talking, and he tells Bruce that he has to leave Hong Kong.

00:05:41:27 – 00:06:03:29
Dan LeFebvre
And this is when, in the movie, we see he takes Bruce to this, like, secret room or secret area. And, here’s a birth certificate. Your name is Bruce Lee, and you have to go to America now. And he mentions, I should say, he mentions that he was on tour there with the, Cannes Opera Company in 1940.

00:06:04:01 – 00:06:09:02
Dan LeFebvre
So is that why Bruce Lee left Hong Kong to go to America again?

00:06:09:02 – 00:06:27:03
Matthew Polly
What they do a lot in this movie is they take some elements that are true, and then they stretch it to the point of breaking, and then they kind of put it back together. So Bruce’s father did tours, with the Cantonese opera troupe in America in 1940, and Bruce was born there. So he was an American citizen.

00:06:27:06 – 00:06:47:06
Matthew Polly
He knew that before. Before the great reveal. But they, you know, they didn’t make a big deal. It didn’t matter to him. He didn’t think about it very much. What had happened was that Bruce Lee, after he started studying Wing Chun, wanted to go learn how to be better at it. And so he would go on the streets of Hong Kong and bump into people.

00:06:47:08 – 00:07:08:20
Matthew Polly
And if they got angry, then he’d start a fight with them. And so he was basically this punk who was like starting fights with people. This show, how good he was. And also to practice and get better. And one day he bumped into this Chinese teenage kid, and the kid fought back and he beat him up. And the kid’s father was an important person.

00:07:08:20 – 00:07:20:00
Matthew Polly
And that kid’s father went to the police. He didn’t fight in the British soldiers. He had a lantern festival and beat up five of them doing acrobatics. Which, by the way, he didn’t know how to do Acrobat.

00:07:20:00 – 00:07:22:23
Dan LeFebvre
Ripping his shirt off in the process. He forgot that.

00:07:22:25 – 00:07:45:03
Matthew Polly
Yeah, you ripped up her off, and then the, like, several backflips. So that was like Jackie Chan. Bruce Lee was a Wing Chun guy, and they didn’t do flips. But anyway, so he didn’t fight white guys. It was some Chinese kid from an important family. So the police had heard about Bruce. He had been in so many street fights that his name was on a list.

00:07:45:06 – 00:08:03:24
Matthew Polly
And so finally, the police went around to his parents and to his mother, actually, and said, if you don’t straighten him out, we’re going to have to arrest him. And that’s when they had the conversation, which you see in the movie. But it was the mother and father saying, look, things are going well. Bruce was failing out of high school.

00:08:03:27 – 00:08:14:14
Matthew Polly
It didn’t look like he had any job prospects. So they said, why don’t you go to American, straighten yourself out. And so that aspect is true. But, through the distortion of, Hollywood magic.

00:08:14:16 – 00:08:23:02
Dan LeFebvre
Why go to America then? Because in the movie, it’s like, oh, you love American cars, you love American things. So obviously America is is where you’re going to go.

00:08:23:04 – 00:08:45:15
Matthew Polly
It was America because he had an American passport. And so that was somewhere he could go. But also there was another reason, which was at that time, every American male of 18 years of age had to sign up for the draft. It was a law. And so if Bruce Lee didn’t sign up for the draft, his American citizenship could be revoked.

00:08:45:18 – 00:09:06:23
Matthew Polly
And so they also wanted to make sure that he secured this, because for people living in Hong Kong, which at that time was very third world, an American birth certificate, a citizenship had great value. And so if he secured that, then the family could theoretically move to America with him. And so this was something they didn’t want to lose.

00:09:06:26 – 00:09:11:01
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Yeah. The movie doesn’t mention any of that side of it. No.

00:09:11:03 – 00:09:12:12
Matthew Polly
No.

00:09:12:14 – 00:09:33:19
Dan LeFebvre
Well, once Bruce arrives in America in the movie, he’s in San Francisco, and we see him as a dishwasher in a restaurant called gussy Yang’s here almost right away. He attracts the attention of a waitress named April, which then leads to a fight. Another fight where he’s outnumbered, with the cooks. They’re led by someone named Mr. Ho.

00:09:33:21 – 00:09:55:02
Dan LeFebvre
Of course, vers is a much better fighter than the cooks, so he defeats them pretty easily. But Miss Yang gets upset, fires Bruce, but then gives him two weeks pay, two weeks severance on top of that, and then hands him some extra money as a loan. She suggests that either he can just go blow his money and then wind up.

00:09:55:02 – 00:10:11:27
Dan LeFebvre
There is a dishwasher. I think she says something to the effect of I can always use a good dishwasher, or he should go get an education. Now, if were to believe the movie, Bruce seems to go to America and then get in trouble right away. Is any of that true?

00:10:12:01 – 00:10:31:11
Matthew Polly
One thing I do like about that scene is the, owner of the restaurant. And it’s true, he did work as a dishwasher in a restaurant called Ruby Chiles, and the owner was a woman by the name of Ruby Chao. And on screen, she’s played by Nancy Kwan, who is a famous Hong Kong actress who was also a personal friend of Bruce Lee.

00:10:31:14 – 00:10:58:17
Matthew Polly
So it was it’s nice to see a personal friend of Bruce Lee play a character in the movie. That’s the best part of that scene, actually, Bruce came to America. And Ruby Chao, husband was friends with Bruce’s father. That’s how he got a job in the restaurant. They put him up there. But Bruce, actually, because his father and the owner’s husband were friends, thought he would just go nuts live there.

00:10:58:18 – 00:11:18:15
Matthew Polly
He didn’t realize he was going to have to do scut work. And so he was refused this. But he had to do the worst jobs and the restaurant dishwashing, cleaning up. And that they treated him like a servant because he actually came from a well-to-do family in Hong Kong, and he never had to do. He had servants in Hong Kong, so he never had to do any of this kind of work.

00:11:18:18 – 00:11:41:00
Matthew Polly
And so he would complain loudly that he was being treated like an indentured servant. And all the other cooks were annoyed by this because they didn’t come from this kind of rich background, and they thought he was a snotty little brat. And so there were a couple times where he said something and apparently once one of the cooks picked up a knife and threatened him, and Bruce said, come on, come get me.

00:11:41:03 – 00:11:52:19
Matthew Polly
And then it ended there. So they took that moment, which is true. Which is? Bruce shot his mouth off, and somebody challenged him with a butcher’s knife, and then they turned it into a whole fight scene.

00:11:52:25 – 00:11:57:20
Dan LeFebvre
Going out and in the alley behind the restaurant. And this whole whole fight scene there.

00:11:57:22 – 00:12:16:06
Matthew Polly
Exactly. And that’s actually one of the things Bruce Lee’s life has been turned into many different sort of projects, and they inevitably try to turn his life into a kung fu movie. And that’s one of the problems, is like, he want to turn it into a genre kung fu movie. So you take things that are kind of true, and then you turn it into these big fight scenes.

00:12:16:10 – 00:12:23:11
Dan LeFebvre
Oh, you have to find somewhere in there to to throw in those fight scenes to keep the action in the movie, because people are expecting it at that point.

00:12:23:13 – 00:12:29:26
Matthew Polly
So they have such generic constriction that they’re they’re forced into, and so they try to bend the biography to the genre.

00:12:29:29 – 00:12:55:08
Dan LeFebvre
Okay, I see, I see well, in the movie, we never to my recollection, I don’t remember seeing or hearing any dialog necessarily about where Bruce goes to get an education. After this, we see him on some sort of a college campus, and then there’s another another fight here. And it happens with somebody named Joe Henderson. Bruce is working out in the gym one day and Joe comes in.

00:12:55:15 – 00:13:14:14
Dan LeFebvre
He spurts some racist remarks and picks a fight with Bruce. Bruce again pretty easily defeats Joe and the three other guys that he’s with. He’s always outnumbered in these fights. And then after the fight, a couple of the guys come up to him and ask, can you, can you teach me how to fight? I want to learn. Learn what you did.

00:13:14:16 – 00:13:44:07
Dan LeFebvre
A little bit later, we see, Linda Emery. She enters the movie as the only woman in Bruce’s class. That’s kind of how the movie sets up that he goes from, not basically. He was a dishwasher, and then he goes to get an education, and then he starts teaching. And then, of course, meeting Linda. So how accurate was that where he went from not teaching to teaching his his martial arts to then meeting Linda?

00:13:44:07 – 00:13:47:28
Dan LeFebvre
Was she one of the first students that he had in the US?

00:13:48:00 – 00:14:12:08
Matthew Polly
No. So, they again, they play with the time frame. So what happened was when he first got to America, he was already intent on going to college. They signed him up for a essentially a remedial or vocational high school to get his high school diploma because he hadn’t graduated from high school, Hong Kong. So he went to this high school for older students, vocational education.

00:14:12:10 – 00:14:32:24
Matthew Polly
And in, in his class was, a man, African-American by the name of Jesse Glover. Who later shows up in the movie is it’s kind of best buddy. He actually is the first student of Bruce Lee, and he had wanted to learn kung fu, but other Chinese teachers wouldn’t teach him. And he heard that Bruce Lee knew it.

00:14:32:26 – 00:14:57:13
Matthew Polly
And so he befriended Bruce Lee. And Bruce Lee actually didn’t really want to teach him that much, but because no one else, he didn’t have anything else to do but washing dishes. Jesse Glover became his first student, and Jesse loved him. He thought he was great. So Jesse told his, roommate, who became Bruce Lee’s second student. And then they told a couple other friends, and they became Bruce Lee’s third and fourth student.

00:14:57:16 – 00:15:14:08
Matthew Polly
And then Bruce started doing things like going and giving demonstrations at high schools to gain more students. And at these demonstrations, he would invite a tough guy in the crowd up on stage and say, hey, try to hit me. And they would try to hit him and he would block all their punches and tie them up in knots.

00:15:14:11 – 00:15:40:07
Matthew Polly
And then those people would become his students. So they took that and turned that into a fight scene on the college campus. But before he got to college and he went to the University of Washington, he had already had about 10 or 15, students who were also best friends, and they trained in parks, etc.. And then he opened a school in his first year when he was at the University of Washington, and he had a school running.

00:15:40:09 – 00:15:49:07
Matthew Polly
And one of Lynda’s friends, female friends was one of his students, and she told him about Bruce Lee, and that’s how she became one of its students.

00:15:49:14 – 00:15:54:26
Dan LeFebvre
But she did eventually become one of his students there, but introduced through one of her friends. That was. That’s right.

00:15:54:26 – 00:16:06:06
Matthew Polly
Okay, so that’s absolutely true. And they and they did. She was one of his students. And he started to take a shine to her. And she was sort of gaga for him from the very beginning. And that’s how they ended up dating.

00:16:06:09 – 00:16:27:09
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Okay. So then that leads into the next part, because in the movie we see when once they start dating, the movie very heavily implies that it was Linda’s idea for Bruce to actually start his own school, not just students, but have his own school. We see like a a rundown building that, Bruce is going to fix up.

00:16:27:09 – 00:16:41:08
Dan LeFebvre
And in the in the movie you see on the the glass pane of the door, it says it’s the Jun Fan Gung Fu Institute. Was it Linda’s idea for Bruce to start a school? I’m assuming not in San Francisco, but perhaps in Washington.

00:16:41:11 – 00:17:15:15
Matthew Polly
No, it wasn’t her idea. So, and one thing you have to know is that, how this movie came about, which is, Linda Lee ran the Bruce Lee estate and Universal Pictures bought all the rights to Bruce Lee from her as part of an overall deal. So the movie rights, the TV rights, the game video game rights, the image rights, and also the her book in order to turn it into this movie, because they were going to make Bruce Lee part of, you know, like Spider-Man, one of their franchises.

00:17:15:17 – 00:17:43:20
Matthew Polly
And so because it’s based on her book, this is really her story of who Bruce Lee was, and it’s from their perspective, which is why this is kind of a romance, because this is Linda’s version of Bruce Lee, how she met him, how it did. And of course, with Hollywood magic, they make her sort of a, you know, a kind of feminist in the 1990s model as opposed to what she was, which was like kind of an Eisenhower girl who was very strong but quiet.

00:17:43:23 – 00:18:02:24
Matthew Polly
And so, you know, Lauren Holly, who’s beautiful place her is this kind of spunky thing. But actually, Linda was much quieter as a person. Bruce Lee already had opened a school. She went to the school that he had opened, and he already had the idea of making it like McDonald’s, like a franchise across the country.

00:18:02:26 – 00:18:09:02
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Yeah, because that’s something that she mentions to the McDonald’s key there of franchising it.

00:18:09:04 – 00:18:13:07
Matthew Polly
So they gave that to her to make her sort of a stronger female lead.

00:18:13:07 – 00:18:40:24
Dan LeFebvre
Basically. Okay, okay. Well, once he starts the school, this kind leads back to something that you had talked about earlier. Bruce, he gets in trouble for teaching what they call Galo or Westerners. The. We never really find out who they are, really. But the other Chinese martial arts teachers around just. He goes into some room and they’re playing poker or something around, you know, around the table.

00:18:40:24 – 00:19:01:03
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. Yeah, they’re playing around the table and, yeah, you can’t you can’t teach non-Chinese ways. Yeah. I think the movie just calls them the elders, you know, and they’re going to enforce this rule. And the way they’re going to enforce it is by pitting Bruce Lee against who we presume is their fighting champion, Johnny Sun.

00:19:01:06 – 00:19:24:03
Dan LeFebvre
And in this fight, Bruce beats Johnny. But then at the very last moment, just as Bruce is walking away, Johnny has kind of a cheap shot. He kicks Bruce in the back, breaking his back and sending Bruce to the hospital. That’s how the movie sets this up. Did this fight with Johnny Sun actually happened because Bruce Lee wanted to teach anyone who wanted to learn?

00:19:24:06 – 00:19:40:12
Matthew Polly
Yeah. So again, this is one of those this is one of the great myths of Bruce Lee, that this is why this happened. It’s it is one of it. The fight did happen. It is one of the most famous, kung fu fights ever. The real story is that Bruce Lee was, opening a school in Oakland.

00:19:40:12 – 00:20:03:14
Matthew Polly
He had one in Seattle. And this was going to be a second part of his franchise, part of his great empire. McDonald’s kung fu empire that he was going to build. And he was having trouble getting students to Oakland because all the country students were in San Francisco, because that had the largest Chinatown. Now, there were people who knew that he was teaching white people, and there were people who didn’t think it was a good idea.

00:20:03:17 – 00:20:34:11
Matthew Polly
Chinese people at that time, for example, Ruby Chao told him not to do it, but they there was no elders there that Chinatown didn’t have a system of elders who enforce their laws. They were just people who like, you know, between each other. We’re saying that’s really stupid, that you shouldn’t teach Grillo. What actually happened was he was giving a performance in San Francisco at a Chinese theater with a large crowd, and he was demonstrating his version of kung fu wing Chung, his style.

00:20:34:14 – 00:20:57:17
Matthew Polly
And while giving the demonstration, he said, my style is better than everybody else’s style. And he also said, you’ve got a lot of old masters. These old tigers have no teeth, basically, that their styles are useless and mine’s the best. So you should come study with me now. Every martial artist thinks his style is the best, but you’re not supposed to say it out loud because it gets people pissed off.

00:20:57:19 – 00:21:17:24
Matthew Polly
And that’s what happened. They got pissed off. And so there were a couple of young 20 something kids who were mad that Bruce Lee had said this. And so they started talking amongst themselves, and they got this waiter who also studied kung fu and wanted to open his own school by the name of Wong Jack man to challenge formerly challenged Bruce Lee.

00:21:17:26 – 00:21:34:07
Matthew Polly
And so they went over and they challenged him and Bruce Lee said, yeah, I’ll fight him, but you have to fight me at my school. Another thing, the movie gets wrong. And so they went over to his school. And by the way, when they went over to a school, his wife was there, his friend was there.

00:21:34:07 – 00:21:55:11
Matthew Polly
He didn’t sneak off and had this fight. And he won the fight fairly quickly. It was within three minutes, at the end of the fight, though, he beats up that he beat up Wong deck man. Wong Jack man didn’t break his back, but that’s a total fallacy. What happened was later many like 4 or 5 years later, Bruce Lee was doing an exercise.

00:21:55:11 – 00:22:16:15
Matthew Polly
He hadn’t warmed up for it, where he’s picking dead weight off the ground. And, he strained his back. So he did have a back injury. They just collapsed the time frame, and then they had Wong Jack man sneakily break his back at the end of a fight that he lost. And so they’re combining several elements in order to sort of make the story more exciting.

00:22:16:16 – 00:22:25:16
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Okay. So that’s a common technique that a lot of movies do to compress a timeline of an entire lifetime into just, you know, an hour, hour and a half or so.

00:22:25:22 – 00:22:34:24
Matthew Polly
I should say, though, that, when Wong Jack Mann saw the movie, he was so furious that he sued Linda Lee and Universal Studios for $2 million.

00:22:34:24 – 00:22:35:20
Dan LeFebvre
Oh, wow.

00:22:35:22 – 00:22:58:26
Matthew Polly
So that went to court. And the court ruled that he was somewhat of a public figure, so they threw it out. But he became a very respected, martial arts instructor in San Francisco. And for his whole career, he became the guy who broke Bruce Lee’s back in a fight. And so but his his students hate this movie, and they hate like Bruce Lee.

00:22:59:03 – 00:23:05:09
Matthew Polly
So this has become a lot like within this little world. This is like a really contentious issue. What actually happened at that fight?

00:23:05:12 – 00:23:28:12
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. So as far as the movie is concerned and I it sounds like he did have some sort of a back strain, not necessarily a broken back, but there’s a montage in the movie where Bruce is in rehabilitation and as he’s in rehabilitation, he can barely move. And he takes this idea of a new form of martial arts to Linda.

00:23:28:17 – 00:23:54:18
Dan LeFebvre
And this is where we get, you know, Linda’s taking notes, sketches. We see her typing it out on a typewriter. I pause the movie to see the title of it, just called The Book. And we know from history that, of course, Bruce Lee really did write a book called Tao Ju Ji Kondo. But the publication date on that I looked was in 1975, after Bruce Lee’s death.

00:23:54:20 – 00:24:13:03
Dan LeFebvre
And we see a scene in the movie where Linda is so excited she comes and you can see the book is, you know, oh, your books, your books here. So how accurate is the movie in depicting this montage of how Bruce Lee came up with Jeet Kune Do by dictating it to Linda while he was in rehabilitation?

00:24:13:06 – 00:24:34:29
Matthew Polly
Yeah. So again, time frame and compression, they tried to get all of this into a very tight space. Bruce Lee came up with the idea of G condo in 1967, 1968, and his injury wasn’t until 1969. So he had already had the idea himself, and he’d been working on it for actually the Wong Jack man fight when that ended.

00:24:35:02 – 00:24:56:26
Matthew Polly
That’s true. He was upset by how it did, and that led to his break with Wang Chong and his desire to form a new style. So for maybe 3 or 4 years, he’d already been taking notes about GI Kondo, and he had the name for it, and he had already started teaching it before he had his injury. That, said, Linda Lee was extraordinarily helpful to his career.

00:24:56:26 – 00:25:17:22
Matthew Polly
She supported him all the way. She was one of his students. He was a pretty good martial artist. So they’re giving her a little more credit or specific credit than she deserves for this. But she was very much part of his life. And I think what’s interesting, people should know, the Daljit Kondo’s the bestselling martial arts book of all time.

00:25:17:24 – 00:25:39:15
Matthew Polly
I’ve written three. It’s none of them have sold anywhere near what that has so all respect. But, basically what happened is they went through and they found a box full of notebooks, and they just took those notebooks and splice them together. And that’s the book after he died. So he never finished the book? He didn’t write it.

00:25:39:15 – 00:25:54:20
Matthew Polly
It’s not. If you look at it, it’s not actually a book. It’s just a series of notes and sayings that he scribbled through, like, you know, eight notebooks as you do when you’re prepping to try to write something. But he never got around to the actual writing of it. He just got to the research phase.

00:25:54:25 – 00:26:21:14
Dan LeFebvre
Okay, okay. Yeah. Again, that’s a very different picture than him dictating it all and and having it all typed out and and published and received back in his lifetime. Okay. Okay. So I’m assuming based on what you had had said before because after this we see Bruce Lee go proving his new fighting style. And he does this going to you know, pretty much it.

00:26:21:17 – 00:26:39:07
Dan LeFebvre
Remember if it was a high school auditorium or where it was. But he goes to this auditorium, he’s like pretty much pick out the I’ll fight anybody in this room, prove that my style is better. And you mentioned something earlier similar to that. Of course, the movie uses this as an example of bringing Johnny Son back and he defeats him in under 60s.

00:26:39:07 – 00:26:44:12
Dan LeFebvre
I’m assuming that particular instance didn’t happen.

00:26:44:14 – 00:27:10:23
Matthew Polly
Now. So he, from the moment he opened his first school, he would go give demonstrations. And what I think is interesting about that is that’s how he created the Bruce Lee character that we see on screen is he did it in essentially like a stand up comic working his material. He would go on stage and give demonstrations of what his style was, and he would tell jokes and he would be funny, but he also be serious and invite somebody up.

00:27:10:25 – 00:27:34:18
Matthew Polly
And he got to see from the crowds what worked and what didn’t. And he invented himself as Bruce Lee, the kung fu master, on the sort of small stages of Seattle, Oakland and L.A. And so when you understand who Bruce Lee was, you understand somebody who had honed this persona, which was part him, of course, like any standup, but was also, were reaction to the crowd.

00:27:34:18 – 00:27:57:18
Matthew Polly
He knew what worked because he tested it. So he did go around and give these demonstrations. But he never he was always in control. And it was always like, throw a punch, I’ll block it. And never turned into a full fight. He did have a few fights with people who didn’t like him. There was a Japanese master, mat master, a Japanese karate student.

00:27:57:22 – 00:28:26:01
Matthew Polly
He fought and beaten like 20s. So Bruce Lee was a real fighter, and he could fight, but he never fought the Jackson Wong Jack man guy ever again. The guy who didn’t actually break his back. So, what? And and that scene leads up to him, his discovery in Hollywood. Right. What actually happened was he gave a performance in, Long Beach outside of LA, and there was a hairdresser there.

00:28:26:03 – 00:28:48:11
Matthew Polly
Who was a famous Hollywood hairdresser. And he saw the performance and was impressed by Bruce Lee. And then by the name of Jay Sebring. And Jay Sebring had a TV executive who was one of his clients talking about a new TV series he wanted to do with a Chinese actor who could do action. And so Jay Sebring put the TV producer together with Bruce Lee.

00:28:48:13 – 00:28:55:27
Matthew Polly
So one of his demonstrations did lead to his Hollywood career. But it wasn’t, 62nd fight to the death with someone.

00:28:56:00 – 00:29:17:08
Dan LeFebvre
I think it was, Bill Krieger was. Yes. Happened to be watching. One of the performances is, oh, hey, can you do this stuff in front of the camera? I’ve got a show called The Green Hornet. Let’s let’s do this. That’s pretty much how the movie shows his transition from martial arts to acting. Did he? When when he made that transition to acting, what happened to his schools?

00:29:17:08 – 00:29:26:29
Dan LeFebvre
Did he did he kind of put that part of his chapter of his life behind him and kind of shift over to acting? The movie kind of seems to imply that he did.

00:29:27:01 – 00:30:02:22
Matthew Polly
So he actually, after he got offered the role of Kato in The Green Hornet, he opened the school in Los Angeles. He did close his Oakland school because it didn’t have enough students. And then he had a friend running his Seattle school. So for the early parts of his Hollywood career, he basically still had two schools going, and, he did he did spend a fair amount of time initially, which is a lot, Los Angeles school because L.A. based school and taught some of the students there and that was he sort of had a bifurcated life.

00:30:02:22 – 00:30:10:21
Matthew Polly
He had his Hollywood life, and he still kept up his students. But eventually, by the time he becomes world famous, he closed all of the schools down.

00:30:10:25 – 00:30:33:17
Dan LeFebvre
Okay, okay. Yeah, that’s a lot of different irons in the fire to to keep going, especially spread across the different locations. Now, there’s one scene I want to ask you about because there’s Bruce Lee. He started his acting career, and we see a scene where he’s walking with Bill Krieger, and the two of them are coming up with an idea for a new show.

00:30:33:22 – 00:30:59:15
Dan LeFebvre
They’re talking back and forth, and as they’re doing that from the dialog, we start to get this idea that starts to take shape. It’ll it’ll be a Western starring a Chinese immigrant. He’s searching for his brother. Except he doesn’t use a gun. He uses kung fu, and they’re both just excited about this show. And then later, we see Bruce and Linda sitting at home watching a new TV show called Kung Fu starring David Carradine.

00:30:59:18 – 00:31:21:00
Dan LeFebvre
And you can you can just see that Bruce feels betrayed, like they they cast David Carradine and instead of him. So that’s how the movie sets up this idea that Bruce Lee and Bill Krieger came up with this idea for the show, and then it very heavily implies that David Carradine was cast over Bruce Lee for the lead role.

00:31:21:02 – 00:31:22:05
Dan LeFebvre
That happened.

00:31:22:07 – 00:31:46:00
Matthew Polly
So no, again, this is again, as this is one of the most annoying myths that continue to this day based on this movie. So the TV series Kung Fu was written by, two Jewish Brooklyn from Brooklyn, comedy writers from Brooklyn by the name of, Ed Spielman and Howard Friedlander. They came up with the original idea. They sold it to, Warner Brothers.

00:31:46:02 – 00:32:07:00
Matthew Polly
And the producer was, Fred Weintraub, who is the Bill Krieger character. So he had this idea. He went to Bruce Lee and said, I have this idea. I hear you know, you, Ben Kato, what do you think about playing the lead? And then the idea is a movie died, and later got revived as a TV series.

00:32:07:00 – 00:32:35:02
Matthew Polly
It was originally supposed to be a feature movie. And so it got revived as a TV series. But by this time it was 1971, and Bruce Lee had already gone back to Hong Kong and made the big boss. And so after he finished The Big Boss, he flew to Hollywood and auditioned for the role. And the TV producer in charge decided probably didn’t want a casting agent guy anyway, but he felt that Bruce Lee’s accent was too thick.

00:32:35:04 – 00:33:00:09
Matthew Polly
And so the role went to David Carradine. So this wasn’t his idea? He didn’t write the script. He auditioned for the role and didn’t get it. There may have been some racism why he didn’t get it, but he didn’t leave Hollywood because of it. He’d already left Hollywood and gone to Hong Kong. So all of this is mixed up, and it’s becomes this huge myth which everyone tells, which is Hollywood was so racist.

00:33:00:11 – 00:33:13:03
Matthew Polly
Bruce Lee had to leave because they gave Kung fu to David Carradine and go to Hong Kong, and that it just doesn’t fit the chronology. Hollywood was racist. He did face racism, but this wasn’t the example that drove him to Hong Kong.

00:33:13:10 – 00:33:16:16
Dan LeFebvre
What what was his reason for going to Hong Kong then?

00:33:16:18 – 00:33:38:13
Matthew Polly
So, he was really frustrated with, the fact that he couldn’t get roles and the roles he was offered were really stereotypical, terrible roles, which you can imagine at that time. And so, he got offered, a two movie deal by a man named Raymond Chow, who had started Golden Harvest Studios, which was this upstart studio.

00:33:38:15 – 00:34:03:27
Matthew Polly
And initially Bruce blew him off because he still thought his Hollywood career was going to come to fruition. And then after a couple of years of it not going well, he changed his mind and signed the deal. But as soon as he signed the deal, he got this role in Long Street, which did really well. And so he felt like Hollywood was going to work out for him, but he needed the money.

00:34:03:29 – 00:34:28:01
Matthew Polly
He had bought a house in Brentwood that was too expensive for him. And he’d also bought a Porsche because his student, Steve McQueen, had a Porsche. And he wanted to be cool like the other cool kids. And so, he basically was out of money. And so he went, he signed, he agreed to go to Hong Kong, and he planned on going for like 2 or 3 months and filming these two movies, getting a cash infusion.

00:34:28:08 – 00:34:44:07
Matthew Polly
And then he was going to go back to Hollywood and continue his TV career, which right before he left, looked like it was very promising. So, it’s and that’s like a confusing storyline, and that’s why they simplify it and make it just a simple racism story.

00:34:44:09 – 00:35:03:19
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, I think there’s little hints as you’re talking there. There’s a little hints of those types of things. There was, I think one scene where we see Linda looking at some pass do notices and some, you know, Bill like the giving the impression that they need the money. And there’s a scene, I think, where where Bruce has a I don’t know if it was a Porsche.

00:35:03:19 – 00:35:09:23
Dan LeFebvre
I didn’t look, I don’t remember specifically, but it was a pretty nice car that he was he was driving around in.

00:35:09:26 – 00:35:13:12
Matthew Polly
And she’s gets that seat. When he pulls up in it, she gives him a look like, what are you doing.

00:35:13:16 – 00:35:36:27
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah. Right. Yeah yeah. Which leads into another aspect of it because the implication I got from from that side was they may have had financial troubles, but maybe Bruce didn’t really know about that. It I guess the impression I got was that Linda. Linda knew about it. She kept track of the finances, but Bruce went off and bought this expensive car.

00:35:36:27 – 00:35:42:12
Dan LeFebvre
And when they when they need the money, was that kind of that dynamic between the two of them?

00:35:42:15 – 00:36:01:25
Matthew Polly
No. He knew about all the financial difficulties. There’s letters where he sends home. He sends letters. He had to borrow money from friends. And so he was like, writing letters, saying, I’ll get you your money. Now, or I’m really sorry I’m late with the money. So, No, but one thing that did happen was when, it.

00:36:01:25 – 00:36:22:04
Matthew Polly
Right at this period when he had, the house that was too expensive. And the Porsche, that’s when he injured his back. And he could and he couldn’t work for six months, and he was making his money teaching martial arts to Hollywood stars like Steve McQueen, who were paying him the equivalent of $1,000 an hour. And he could no longer teach them.

00:36:22:06 – 00:36:43:27
Matthew Polly
And that’s when their financial difficulty got much worse. And so Linda had to take a job, which she had never done before because it was very 1950s. She looked after the kids. He brought in the money. And so she did have to support the family during his period of convalescence. So I don’t want in any way underplay her importance to Bruce Lee’s success.

00:36:43:29 – 00:36:49:23
Matthew Polly
It’s just they they polish it up and turn it kind of 1990s version.

00:36:49:25 – 00:37:11:20
Dan LeFebvre
Well, that touches on something else I want to ask you about. And that is the overall way that Bruce is portrayed in the movie as a family man. And in the movie, we see Bruce Lee. It seems like he, you know, he loves Linda and his two kids. He’s a workaholic. But it looks like throughout the movie, he’s really just trying his best to provide for his family.

00:37:11:22 – 00:37:25:14
Dan LeFebvre
Toward the end of the movie, he says something along the lines of, I just want to spend more time with my kids and stop breaking my wife’s heart because, you know, I’m I’m working all the time. What was the Lee family dynamic like?

00:37:25:16 – 00:37:53:23
Matthew Polly
So. And certain ways. That’s very true. Which is he did love his wife. They were great friends. He adored his children. And he was a workaholic. But he was also a Hollywood actor. And the era of free love and, his friends are like Steve McQueen. And so, he had a little things on the side here and there, that no one ever reported before.

00:37:53:23 – 00:38:14:08
Matthew Polly
I wrote my biography about him. And, for him, he didn’t I it was just that, you know, he was a Hollywood actor in the late 60s. They all cheated. And he did as well. That didn’t mean he didn’t love his wife. It just he was doing what they all did. But the movie comes out and makes him the perfect family man.

00:38:14:11 – 00:38:46:04
Matthew Polly
And maybe that’s what a 1969 perfect family man look like. But that’s not what we think a perfect one does. And so they whitewashed his history in order to to make him, you know, it was Linda’s book that they turned it into. They didn’t want to get into it. And, you know, what’s interesting is in the original screenplay, they had a scene where he’s in Thailand filming the movie, and there’s an actress who’s hitting on him, and he’s awful tempted, but at the very end he says, no, I can’t because I love my wife too much.

00:38:46:06 – 00:39:02:28
Matthew Polly
And they ended up feeling that was too racy and they cut even that suggestion that they’re a hint that he might have been tempted away from, you know, heart and home. And the truth was, he he had multiple affairs over, over the years. Once he became a Hollywood actor.

00:39:03:00 – 00:39:07:12
Dan LeFebvre
Okay. Yeah. That’s a that’s a little bit of a different dynamic than we see in the movie then.

00:39:07:15 – 00:39:26:00
Matthew Polly
Yeah. Very much. It was he was much more like Mad Men, you know? Okay. Like when you think about Mad Men, you think about these guys who loved their wives, came home and whatever. But when they were off at work, they did. They had sex with the secretary or whatever, and it just didn’t interfere. And that’s that double standard was what he grew up with.

00:39:26:03 – 00:39:32:23
Matthew Polly
And so it’s just a different dynamic than those of us who grew up kind of post 80s, where that’s just not acceptable.

00:39:32:25 – 00:39:54:20
Dan LeFebvre
That’s a that’s a good way to phrase that in another, another TV show example. Yeah. Another theme throughout the movie that I wanted to ask you about was this concept we see of the demon. It starts at the very beginning, right at the very beginning of the movie, with Bruce as a child, all the way to what I thought was a very specific date.

00:39:54:22 – 00:40:24:12
Dan LeFebvre
The 32nd day of shooting Enter the Dragon near the end of the film, and then, it’s during that last vision that Bruce sees his own grave. And on the grave is the date July 28th, 1973, engraved on it. Can you give a little more insight into the historical accuracy of this idea of the demon that Bruce Lee how if he’s hallucinating or how he’s seeing these visions in the movie?

00:40:24:14 – 00:40:30:16
Dan LeFebvre
But then how well did the movie do depicting the end of Bruce Lee’s life?

00:40:30:18 – 00:40:52:23
Matthew Polly
So they took again, they took some element of truth, and then they, they, they ran with it, which is, before Bruce was born, the first male child, that his parents had did die, I think, before was one year old. And in Chinese culture, that’s considered a bad omen. And so it’s a kind of superstition.

00:40:52:25 – 00:41:11:13
Matthew Polly
Any child, any male child born after that is supposed to be given a female nickname, and dressed up in female clothes. And so they didn’t do that with Bruce Lee. In fact, they even pierced his ear and gave him an earring when he was a little baby. And so this is a, Chinese custom from that period of time.

00:41:11:15 – 00:41:32:24
Matthew Polly
But that’s it. Like, that’s that’s the end of the demons. He never he never came up again. Bruce Lee never had visions of a demon. His father never warned him that the demon was going to get him. So you’d have to run off to America. And, Bruce probably had some bad dreams every once in a while, but it wasn’t of a demon.

00:41:32:27 – 00:41:57:08
Matthew Polly
And that was the one you interviewed. The director’s been interviewed, and he said I wanted to, you know, use that artistic license to speak about his inner struggle. But they also had another problem, which is, how to deal with Bruce Lee’s death. And Bruce Lee died in another woman’s bedroom. That’s that’s how we know that he wasn’t a purely faithful husband.

00:41:57:10 – 00:42:25:16
Matthew Polly
And when that scandal, when that came out, it was a huge scandal and ongoing press, and it was very tough on Linda. And so one of the things that she wanted to make sure in the years since is that no one really dug into this situation involving Bruce Lee’s death. And so any Bruce Lee estate product, any anything that comes that’s associated with the Bruce Lee estate pretty much avoids the the gritty details of his death.

00:42:25:18 – 00:42:40:23
Matthew Polly
And so using the demon was another way for them to kind of skedaddle by what actually happened, which was he was spending the afternoon with his mistress. And for some reasons that are still under debate, he ended up dying in her bedroom.

00:42:40:26 – 00:42:47:29
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, well, I could I could see that then, because that would go against the family man that they set up throughout the entire movie.

00:42:48:01 – 00:43:10:28
Matthew Polly
Yeah, it it would just I mean, this is really the version they’re doing. It’s Bruce Lee, the Family man, but also the romance. And I think they do a wonderful job of getting that part of it. But he was a more complicated person, with more flaws. And they just decided to, you know, scrub those away. And the death obviously would make that much more complicated, a storyline.

00:43:10:29 – 00:43:31:18
Matthew Polly
So him dying in that sort of almost mythical way is a way for them to escape that. But, you know, one of the things that was spooky about the movie is that, they had asked Brandon Lee if he wanted to play his father, Brandon being Bruce’s son. And he said no. He took the part in The Crow.

00:43:31:21 – 00:43:50:12
Matthew Polly
And that last scene, Bruce is fighting the demon, and then the demon goes after his son. And Bruce has to kill the demon in order to protect his son. And within a year, Brandon had died. Actually, six months, I think, had died on the set of The Crow Under, like, really weird circumstances.

00:43:50:12 – 00:43:57:11
Dan LeFebvre
That was like a blink or something like that, wasn’t it? That that I don’t remember the specifics of. But I remember when that happened. Yeah.

00:43:57:13 – 00:44:19:20
Matthew Polly
Yeah, yeah. Very creepy. And so this movie came out and it’s got this whole demon thing about a family curse, and then Brandon dies. And so in the public’s mind, there is this idea that somehow Bruce’s family has actually been cursed. I’ve actually had producers in Hollywood call me and say, we’re doing the curse. The Lee family.

00:44:19:21 – 00:44:38:13
Matthew Polly
Will you participate in that? And I’m like, no. Oh. However, because it there’s no curse on his family, but they’ve had two really tragic deaths, the father and the son. And part of the reason people believe this is because, unfortunately, they use this demon sort of, mythos in the movie itself.

00:44:38:16 – 00:44:50:23
Dan LeFebvre
Well, we’ve talked about some of the, the big myths that come out of the movie. Are there any other major myths about Bruce Lee that people believe because of Dragon, the Bruce Lee story?

00:44:50:25 – 00:45:10:25
Matthew Polly
I think we had the main ones. I was rewatching it this afternoon, and, he never drove a motorcycle. That’s not a big myth. But it is funny, because all of his friends said he was a terrible driver, like he was. He was like, he drove too fast. He scared the heck out of them.

00:45:10:27 – 00:45:36:12
Matthew Polly
So they, the idea of him on a motorcycle, is kind of foolish. I think the biggest myth that the movie sets up, which is because they start with him training with it, man, they make it seem as if he was a martial artist who accidentally became an actor. You know, so his whole everything up to this moment where he’s fighting Jackson, he’s just this martial artist.

00:45:36:14 – 00:45:59:27
Matthew Polly
And then accidentally, Hollywood discovers him. Actually, Bruce Lee’s father was a famous, opera singer, which they mentioned in the movie. But Bruce Lee was also a child actor and appeared in 20 Cantonese movies before the age of 18. And he was kind of like the Macaulay Culkin of Hong Kong. And so when Hollywood called, he was ready.

00:46:00:00 – 00:46:21:02
Matthew Polly
Like he already knew how to act. And that’s why he succeeded, because he was a great martial artist who also had a strong background in acting. And most martial artists who get cast like Chuck Norris don’t know how to act. Bruce Lee is the only one who could do both, and that’s why he succeeded as a star, because he was an actor.

00:46:21:04 – 00:46:44:19
Matthew Polly
And then he became a martial artist, and then he combined the two. And this movie sets up the idea of Bruce Lee, the pure martial arts genius, perfect father. And he’s actually like an actor who became a martial artist who was not perfect. But combine those two skills. And I think if they had just had one scene where they showed him as a child actor, it would have filled out his story much more.

00:46:44:21 – 00:47:06:18
Dan LeFebvre
I’m wondering, just as you’re saying, that it it lends back to watch something that you mentioned earlier where he kind of thrown into, well, this has to be a kung fu movie because it’s about Bruce Lee. And so if he was an actor, would he know how to fight the four cooks in the alleyway? And, you know, the sailors and, you know, all these scenes that we have to set up for him?

00:47:06:20 – 00:47:23:06
Dan LeFebvre
Well, he has to be a martial artist then at that point, because he already know how to fight. And so I’m wondering if that’s kind of how they why they why they did that in order to, tell the story, but mix up quite a few things along the way to do that.

00:47:23:08 – 00:47:45:18
Matthew Polly
Yeah. You know, that’s part of the issue. And to be fair, I, I’ve seen much worse biopics than this one. Like, as biopics go, it’s a perfectly decent version. It’s a huge inaccuracies, but that’s sort of part of the part and parcel. Part of the reason, though, is I think this it’s based on Linda Lee’s book.

00:47:45:20 – 00:48:03:12
Matthew Polly
And for her, she fell in love with Bruce Lee when he was a martial artist, and she fell in love with her martial arts teacher. And I think for her, that’s the most important aspect of him. And I don’t believe she was ever particularly happy with him when he went back to being an actor.

00:48:03:14 – 00:48:08:06
Dan LeFebvre
Do you think some of the affairs had something to do with that? I mean, that’s part of that lifestyle or.

00:48:08:08 – 00:48:26:04
Matthew Polly
I think the lifestyle. Yeah. And so after he died, very interestingly, she never she pulled away from it. She kept her kids away from it. She didn’t want her son to be an actor. She was a quiet person who never cotton to that world. And I think this was Bruce Lee’s dream to be a great star.

00:48:26:12 – 00:48:46:14
Matthew Polly
Her dream was to marry a guy who had the McDonald’s chain of kung fu studios. And so I think those two aspects of Bruce Lee, what’s interesting is when you hear her versions of the story, she recognizes he was both, but she emphasizes the part that she loved that she fell in love with. And this movie does as well.

00:48:46:16 – 00:48:54:25
Matthew Polly
And that’s created this image of Bruce Lee is this kung fu master and that sort of accidental actor, when it’s actually the opposite.

00:48:54:27 – 00:49:06:10
Dan LeFebvre
Now, if you kind of put yourself in the director’s chair for a moment, if there was one thing you wish that was in the movie and they didn’t put it in there, what would that be?

00:49:06:12 – 00:49:40:01
Matthew Polly
It would help if they just showed. I think Jason Scott Lee did a good job of catching Bruce’s emotional range, like his charm and his anger. But they should have showed his flaws, and they should have had one scene where he was not the perfect husband. They still had one affair, because I think that would have shown a more complex adult version of him and allowed us to appreciate, you know, the fact that he was a flawed human being who was also able to achieve greatness and that would have made it less a child story and more an adult story.

00:49:40:04 – 00:50:08:19
Matthew Polly
And every time someone, you know, there’s recently been a documentary that came out, ESPN is doing and again, they skipped the death. And they, they skip the affairs and they focus on Bruce Lee’s accomplishments only, and they turn him into a saint and almost a demigod. And I and I really think it’s important for us to appreciate him as a human being because as a flawed human being, his successes are more impressive.

00:50:08:21 – 00:50:27:13
Matthew Polly
But if you treat him as a demigod, then, you know, of course he can beat 50 people from the get go. He never lost a fight. He was perfect. And this, this. I don’t know why we feel the need to treat Bruce Lee as perfect. We have movies about other iconic figures where, you know, Martin Luther King had affairs like it’s not.

00:50:27:18 – 00:50:41:10
Matthew Polly
These aren’t things that we can’t deal with as a culture. So that’s the thing that annoys me about these films in general, which is this, this desire to make Bruce Lee a saint. He wasn’t a saint. He was a great man, but he wasn’t a saint.

00:50:41:12 – 00:50:59:16
Dan LeFebvre
Was a human. I think you put you you said it really well, like, I mean, we’re all human. We all make mistakes. And they’re going to, I mean, perhaps be different mistakes and the ones that he made. But, I think that would make for a lot more, a lot more character depth there and a lot more relatability to it.

00:50:59:19 – 00:51:10:00
Dan LeFebvre
I can’t go out and do what Bruce Lee did by any means, any way you look at it. But, you know, I guess more human relatable ends up being a much more relatable character on screen.

00:51:10:02 – 00:51:26:28
Matthew Polly
I think so, and so I’m hopeful that someday they will do a more human version of Bruce Lee on screen. And this was I feel like this was the kind of the kids starter version of the Bruce Lee story, where they mix a bunch of stuff up and unfortunately, no one else is correct in it.

00:51:27:00 – 00:51:46:01
Matthew Polly
And so when I wrote the biography, I felt in many ways I felt like this movie was the thing I was writing against because there were so many things that were wrong that I didn’t know when I started, because the movie’s been reinforced by magazine articles, etc. and so while it’s a perfectly fine movie, it’s, it’s it is pretty terrible history.

00:51:46:08 – 00:52:07:08
Dan LeFebvre
Well, you mentioned your biography, and hopefully at the end of the day, everybody listening to this realizes that it is a movie. It’s going to be a movie. It’s not going to be historically accurate. So with that in mind, anyone listening to this that wants to learn the true story, can you share some information about your book and where they can get a copy?

00:52:07:10 – 00:52:29:08
Matthew Polly
So the title of the book is Bruce Lee A life, by Matthew Polley. It’s available everywhere, so you can get it on Amazon. It’s in most bookstores. Still paperback versions come out. It’s being adapted into a documentary. It may be a movie someday. We’re working on that. So who knows, maybe we will get the story straight and, in Hollywood.

00:52:29:11 – 00:52:34:15
Matthew Polly
But until that day, the books, books there, and it’s, available everywhere.

00:52:34:17 – 00:52:37:00
Dan LeFebvre
Thank you again so much for your time, Matthew.

00:52:37:03 – 00:52:43:28
Matthew Polly
I really appreciate it.

00:04:08:10 – 00:04:26:20
Dan LeFebvre
We have a few movies to talk about today, but before we do that, let’s start by flipping things around a little bit. Normally here on the podcast, we talk about things that filmmakers change from the true story. But I know you’ve been working to get your book called Not a Real Enemy About Your Father urban story told into a movie.

00:04:26:22 – 00:04:43:03
Dan LeFebvre
Of course, we can’t predict the future to know when or if that will happen soon, but let’s hope for the best and say it is turned into a movie. So what’s one key thing that you want to make sure the filmmakers don’t change from the true story in the film adaptation?

00:04:43:06 – 00:05:01:18
Robert Wolf
Well, hopefully all of it, of course. But, that’s the easy answer. My dad’s for escapes or what? For example, my dad was a four time escape artist, and he missed an escape, too. He was fortunate, and he sports enough to go to the wrong train station under communist Hungary. And everybody made that train got arrested, including his, medical school classmate.

00:05:01:18 – 00:05:08:07
Robert Wolf
So all of that. I’d like to be, as accurate as possible as, cinematography. Cinematography.

00:05:08:10 – 00:05:09:02
Dan LeFebvre
Cinematography.

00:05:09:04 – 00:05:29:27
Robert Wolf
Yeah, yeah, as close as possible. Color movie, color in color. Obviously, a lot of the older movies are black and white, like Schindler’s List, which I hope we talk about a little bit more. That movie I just saw the movie and a resonates very, very much so with the story that I’m that we’re telling here. And then his upbringing, you know, it doesn’t have to be a long part of his upbringing.

00:05:30:00 – 00:05:49:23
Robert Wolf
And if I could cast a movie, it’d be Tom Hanks playing my dad and Tom, or that Tom Hanks Tom cruise. Tom Hanks plays one of the nicer, guards in the labor camp, a forced labor camp. A lot of the movie should cover the forced labor camp, the beatings, getting urinated on, getting shot at by Russian planes, all that kind of thing.

00:05:49:23 – 00:06:09:12
Robert Wolf
So there’s a lot of content. And, you know, of course, we wanted as close as possible, but any good producer writer screenplay would, would switch it up a little. I just hope they keep the, you know, as they keep the fidelity as much as possible. I mean obviously you got to make changes to capture an audience and hopefully that would be the case.

00:06:09:16 – 00:06:29:04
Robert Wolf
And you know the other thing is some people say could be a feature film. Some people say a documentary docu drama series. I wouldn’t care as long as they did a good job with it. There’s 40 chapters in our book, so, you could. I don’t think it’d be a 40, 40, show series, but certainly 10 or 15 would be, you know, one season’s worth at least.

00:06:29:04 – 00:06:45:15
Robert Wolf
So it’s always up to the producer, or whoever gets a hold of, the story. The it’s not in a screen stand in a screenplay yet, but, I, I leave that to the I leave that to Hollywood or whatever, discovers whatever we’re doing here. And if they do so it’s a, it’s a wing and a prayer.

00:06:45:15 – 00:07:02:01
Robert Wolf
And I know it’s a such a long shot. It’s easier to get into medical school, which I’m a position. I’m a radiologist, recently retired. It’s easier to get into medical school than to sell a New York Times bestseller. A bigger story and a movie, as we well know, nobody knew Schindler was, you know, 20, 30 years ago and nobody knew who.

00:07:02:01 – 00:07:18:29
Robert Wolf
And Frank was way back in the day. And, the, Life is Beautiful story I never wanted I mean, I never even think about, Italy and the Holocaust until I saw that movie and both of them the second time. Both great movies. And we could talk about those details and how they resonate with what we’re doing.

00:07:19:01 – 00:07:29:01
Robert Wolf
And I’m glad I saw them after I wrote a book regarding the Holocaust and beforehand to what a what a different viewpoint or what a, what a difference that makes.

00:07:29:01 – 00:07:48:26
Dan LeFebvre
Certainly we’re going to we’re going to talk about those for sure. But as we shift into some of the movies that that have been made, there are a lot of movies that are set before and during World War Two. So what I’d love to do is to get your take on some of those and how they compare to your family’s experiences that you talk about in your book.

00:07:48:28 – 00:08:06:05
Dan LeFebvre
And the first movie that I’d like to start with is a classic film, The Sound of Music, and it tells the story of how life changes for the von Trapp family as Nazi Germany annexes Austria in 1938. And as we watch a movie like Sound of Music, it’s possible to see the warning signs when we watch the movie now.

00:08:06:05 – 00:08:26:00
Dan LeFebvre
But of course, anytime we’re watching a movie like that, we’re also looking at it through a historical lens because we already know what’s going to happen from history instead of being there in the moment. And correct me if I’m wrong, but Austria is like less than 100km from where your father grew up in Hungary, so he wasn’t that far from where the annexation unfolded.

00:08:26:03 – 00:08:30:24
Dan LeFebvre
What were things like in that region as Germany annexed Austria?

00:08:30:27 – 00:08:57:20
Robert Wolf
Well, as you know, the fact the rise of fascism almost simultaneously with the Great Depression, the Roaring 20s, were okay in Hungary and throughout the world. We think the war was over. Things were doing well. And meantime, of course, Hitler was it was a building, the military machine that he was, because Germany’s economy was, it was, that’s how they that’s that was their economy was the military, of course, 33 is where fascism was on a rise in 38, 1938.

00:08:57:20 – 00:09:17:28
Robert Wolf
And in Hungary, there were anti-Jewish laws were initiated. So you couldn’t on the radio, you could only go out at certain times. There was, no Jews or dog signs up, of course, Kristallnacht. If, I’m not mistaken, in Germany, Austria was 1938, a very big event. That’s where they started taking force.

00:09:17:28 – 00:09:39:06
Robert Wolf
Laborers, the men, the young men that were wealthy, they started to take them away to forced labor camps and, really didn’t affect Hungary. I mean, the anti-Jewish laws were there. So they were persecuted and shunned, if you will. But the the killings and the, the the the most of it didn’t really, happened in Hungary till 1943, 1944.

00:09:39:09 – 00:10:03:00
Robert Wolf
My dad ended up going to after his first forced labor camp in 1943 and October, and then his parents were taken away to Auschwitz, in 1944. So Poland got hit first, obviously in 1939, Kristallnacht before that, 1938. And then Hungary, a little bit later, what I’m told. And from when I’ve read Hungary had the fastest, the fastest pace of homicide, of genocide of any of them.

00:10:03:00 – 00:10:33:07
Robert Wolf
So, that includes Ukraine and Russia, which they were brutalized and the Polish, 1939 of the refugees went to Hungary. And, the Hungarian government sent the refugees back, unfortunately. And, and it really badly for them. And so this resonates with Poland, with the, with the Schindler idea too, because, a lot of similarities between that and what happened to Hungary, although we’re talking about 1941 versus 1943 and 1944, but it could be the same, the same idea that, you know, a little bit, a little bit different background, different scenario.

00:10:33:07 – 00:10:36:09
Robert Wolf
But, a lot of the common, a lot of common themes.

00:10:36:13 – 00:10:59:15
Dan LeFebvre
Since you mentioned it didn’t really touch Hungary, but it’s touching all these countries around. And I’ve, I’ve never visited Hungary, but I can imagine that the proximity isn’t that far. I mean, there’s borders, you know, it’s technically a different country, but there’s these atrocities that are happening. What was it like for your your father as a child and your your grandparents?

00:10:59:15 – 00:11:04:12
Dan LeFebvre
And when they’re, when they’re seeing, I mean, they had been seeing in the news what’s going on where they.

00:11:04:15 – 00:11:30:29
Robert Wolf
Well, what a great question. Well, you say seeing in the news, we realize that my dad in Hungary and his parents never own a car. They never owned a TV. You bring up a great point. Jews were not allowed to have radios. So. And so they had a radio. He, his dad had enough courage to hide a radio, and they would quietly listen to the BBC, during the uprise of the uprising, with a lot of hope and a lot of prayer that that it end soon and relevant to that.

00:11:31:01 – 00:11:50:08
Robert Wolf
During my dad’s first escape toward. They thought it was the end of Lord, they don’t get much news that the forced labor camp, but they’re in the middle of nowhere, about near the Austria Hungary border. And even though they escaped, the Jews first of four, which some are remarkable, they didn’t know whether to flee to Budapest or stay in Hungary or go to Austria because they didn’t know who’s going to win the war.

00:11:50:11 – 00:12:04:24
Robert Wolf
And, you know, the Nazis won the war and they end up in Austria. They’re dead men. And if there’s a chance in Hungary, not Hungary proper, but the West, turns out it’s not the West. It was Soviet Union. If they win the war, maybe they’re better off in Hungary. It turns out either way, you know, you’re a Jew.

00:12:04:24 – 00:12:28:23
Robert Wolf
You’re screwed. I mean, those men, only 5% of the forced labor survived, in the in that process, including my dad, because he was on the run and hiding at the time. He wasn’t the. The rest of them that survived were treated as prisoners of war. Unfortunately. So 5% of forced labor, they had death marches. And that’s why my my dad and his friend Frank decided to, escape the first time because they thought they were on a death march.

00:12:28:28 – 00:12:59:27
Robert Wolf
And nobody knows about death marches in Europe. They don’t. I mean, historians might know. We all know about Okinawa and, the Pacific, but not a lot of people know. So when they thought you weren’t useful anymore, they killed you. So. And that was true at the Danube, very end of the war. Unlike Schindler, where the guards just go home, I, I’d like to talk about that for a few minutes, too, but, it’s a fantasy that these people, because the, guardians were treated and my mom and dad said that, that, the the Arrow Cross, for example, was like a Hungarian Gestapo and the the White Terror or the Red

00:12:59:27 – 00:13:17:14
Robert Wolf
terror or the the Nazis. The communists, they didn’t treat if you felt like if you’re Jewish, you were still scared of whoever was in charge. And, the Hungarians, the police and the military treated the Jewish people worse than the Nazis themselves. And that’s another thing that resonates with some of these movies, too. Women versus men.

00:13:17:14 – 00:13:26:27
Robert Wolf
Women guards versus Benghazi, pets. A lot of the, you know, a lot of things, humiliation. There are a lot of compare, a lot of things to talk about that are that resonate, big time.

00:13:27:00 – 00:13:48:21
Dan LeFebvre
I love that you mentioned the the radio and the communications there, because that’s something that I think I kind of like what I mentioned before, you know, when we watch a movie, we’re looking at it with a historical lens. So we think of, oh yeah, you can get news from all around there. And in my question I ask, you know, seeing things, but there’s that there has to be that almost added level of fear.

00:13:48:21 – 00:14:06:13
Dan LeFebvre
I would imagine, of not knowing, like, you know, that there’s some bad things going on, but you don’t know the full extent of it. And you then there’s that fear of just not knowing, because then your mind would start to go make things up that, I mean, there were some horrible things, but I, I mean, and it’s something I have a hard time wrap my head around.

00:14:06:14 – 00:14:12:26
Dan LeFebvre
What, like put yourself in the historical context of what that must have been like. It had to have been just terrifying for your for your father.

00:14:12:28 – 00:14:31:13
Robert Wolf
Well, part of the reason. Yeah. No intervention for many, many years, after the war started, it, because the United States had the, for example, had the, had the, the duty to protect its own citizens. So getting involved with the war, it was, was tough communications. I couldn’t say it better. You know, the real cell phones there, no lawyers or no courtrooms.

00:14:31:15 – 00:14:50:23
Robert Wolf
The cops and the. And the military pointing guns. It. Yeah. And fortunately, in this country, we. That’s not happened yet. So there’s one thing. No communication, just the radio, which was illegal. It probably would’ve been shot and killed if they got caught with it. And, and forced labor camps out in the middle of nowhere, even less communication than we had a regular camp in the US growing up, you know?

00:14:50:23 – 00:15:11:04
Robert Wolf
So, word of mouth. So things got a little easier for the men? Not much. But as the their guards got bribed, dental treat, free dental treatments. But, yes, there was a dentist. Obvious, obvious threat to society, killed at Auschwitz and his mom as well. And Deb didn’t find out about two months afterwards. Another miracle, from an eyewitness.

00:15:11:06 – 00:15:29:04
Robert Wolf
And, that’s another point that, the witnesses besides no cell phones, no video, a lot of photographs taken, as we know, the Nazis took many, many photographs. So denying the Holocaust and even communist Hungary just. There’s no way you can’t sell that. But the witness, the witness was the next victim is how it turned out.

00:15:29:04 – 00:15:46:14
Robert Wolf
Like at the Danube walk and death marches. Or as we’ve seen, these mass burial, sites, in Ukraine for example, or in the concentration camps. So the witnesses were literally the next victim. So very, very hard to, to wrap my arms around that. And like you said, very hard to get information again.

00:15:46:20 – 00:16:07:03
Dan LeFebvre
I it’s it’s hard to wrap your head around, but but putting yourself in that context of what that must have been like, I, I love the like in your book when you’re when you’re telling that story, it, it it does a really good job of, of helping to put the, the reader in that place of what that must have been like in there.

00:16:07:07 – 00:16:23:18
Dan LeFebvre
And I’m curious because there are a lot of details of your, your father’s earlier life were those things that he that he told you specifically or were they things that you had to research after the fact? Or how did that part kind of come together for that story as you’re putting all these pieces together?

00:16:23:21 – 00:16:41:21
Robert Wolf
A little bit of both. I can’t imagine the boredom in living in quarters like that packed when with people or even hiding out in your own home, with, you know, yellow stars, yellow armbands, the anxiety, the depression, the fear. I can’t imagine that. And but like you say, you can feel it, like during my dad’s first escape.

00:16:41:21 – 00:17:00:02
Robert Wolf
So, Yeah, my dad. Mom wrote an autobiography. They wrote the his story, from World War one. The of World War one to the end of the Hungarian Revolution. So literally 1916, 19 1718 to the end of the Revolution, 1956. They wrote the story in the 1970s. They they wrote it as though it happened the previous day.

00:17:00:09 – 00:17:17:04
Robert Wolf
Sharp. Chris. And I turned into a biography many, many years later. Growing up, the first half of my life, not so much as I went to college and medical school at a career as a radiologist, family, all of that things. So I didn’t, but I did read the it went from paper and pencil to typewriter to computer to disk.

00:17:17:06 – 00:17:36:04
Robert Wolf
And, when it was a manuscript maybe 30 years ago, I read it once and didn’t think much of it and didn’t remember much except my dad’s first escape. But then when I reread it after my my dad passed and fortunately my mom, a historian friend, handed me the story on the disk, and I turned his autobiography to biography and, just doing that alone.

00:17:36:07 – 00:17:52:25
Robert Wolf
Long story short, I went back to radiology, and that brought me to the book. And, long story short, the stories were so amazing. At least 20 miracles in my dad’s life and hungry for escapes and 20 miracles. I couldn’t leave it on a computer. I couldn’t leave it on a disk. I wanted to share it with the world and,

00:17:52:27 – 00:18:07:18
Robert Wolf
And so I did. And that’s been my that’s been my charge. That’s been my mission the last 6 or 7 years. The book’s been out a little while now, but, that doesn’t stop me from trying to fight antisemitism. So, this is my main thing, the why I’m doing this, and, but, yeah, it’s my own little corner.

00:18:07:18 – 00:18:23:07
Robert Wolf
I need help with that, obviously, but, no, my my mom and dad, they did this as though they knew I would like if you know me, six years ago, and my mom was a Holocaust educator, by the way. My dad, too, but he was an ObGyn, by the way, deliver 10,000 babies in the Detroit area, which is so a form of redemption.

00:18:23:10 – 00:18:41:06
Robert Wolf
That’s the punch line. It doesn’t bring back 6 million and doesn’t beat back 50 million that died in World War two. But at least he brought some life back in jovial and jolly. No PTSD. My mom to they they educated. They were well-rounded people. And the stories like I said, they were crisp and and then they had a lot of friends in the unlike what’s going on in the world now.

00:18:41:06 – 00:19:00:00
Robert Wolf
They had a lot of friends where I grew up in Michigan and throughout the world, from continental Africa, Asia had Indian friends, a muslim, Christian, Jewish, fellow Holocaust survivors. They shared the stories and, and I, I bought into it. I got a little burnout from it. And then, I brought it back to life, at least in my own legacy towards my family.

00:19:00:00 – 00:19:15:00
Robert Wolf
So, I got this app, you know, Superman’s Kryptonite. You just sort of called out to me, you know? It’s summoned me back in me. So. And so I’m doing it, and I. I couldn’t leave this on a disc. I couldn’t leave it on computer. And so that’s why we’re sharing it. But, very well done by my mom and dad, you know.

00:19:15:00 – 00:19:16:09
Robert Wolf
So.

00:19:16:11 – 00:19:43:12
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, well, I’m glad that you are telling that story to to because the world does need to know. And the part that kind of made me think that was when you talking about the the photos and things like the Nazis and the Soviets took. But again, putting yourself in that perspective, a difference from watching a movie today versus versus being there when you like the people that took the photographs to document a lot of that, those wouldn’t be photographs that you’re parents and grandparents would have had access to because they were taken by the people doing a lot of it.

00:19:43:12 – 00:19:53:06
Dan LeFebvre
So it’s not something that they’re going to show. So I was very curious how that story then survives despite trying to be suppressed.

00:19:53:09 – 00:20:12:02
Robert Wolf
Yeah. No, you’re right. I mean, but very, very little, belongings left over, from my dad’s side of the family. My mom saved a lot of photographs, and somehow they were preserved, by my mom. So it was a little less harrowing. My mom was in hiding, you know, with her mom, grandma, uncle, grandfather who’s different, you know, on farms and sometimes in Budapest.

00:20:12:02 – 00:20:35:14
Robert Wolf
So she was able to preserve more things. And as a and she also was into genealogy. And I wish I followed it a little bit more, but I do at least have back to World War one. I can’t go back there beyond that. But no, it’s unimaginable. The fear that my mom must add in hiding to and and the fear my dad must have had every day competing and starving and and doing forced labor for hours from, you know, dawn to dusk.

00:20:35:16 – 00:20:52:07
Robert Wolf
Can’t. I can’t imagine it. So, the reality and also photographs. So the Nazis were they took a lot of photographs. They, they sent them home to their families, let them know what they’re doing. And I have a collection of about 18,000 photos on my phone, and some of them are exceptionally disturbing. The last guy surviving in Vilna.

00:20:52:09 – 00:21:18:00
Robert Wolf
They’re about to kill him, and he’s surrounded by, mostly Nazi, officers. And there’s a gun pointed aside, and he knows he’s next. Reminds a little Schindler to you, but he’s the last survivor. They’re a very disturbing photo. I haven’t shared it because they’ll probably kick me out of X and meta and LinkedIn. If I were, were to, the, you know, the burning synagogue is another one, the smashed in homes, the burning homes, one disturbing one.

00:21:18:05 – 00:21:40:09
Robert Wolf
Well, they’re marching off the Jewish people. And I’m thinking, well, who’s taken a picture of all of this and not helping? You know, and these people lived in fear, of course. Another, disturbing photo. I’ve got some from juror. My dad’s home town. Very, very few, very few available. Another one is Kristallnacht. Whether the business, the glass is all broken up and the lady’s walking by the business smiling, I mean, I.

00:21:40:10 – 00:22:00:02
Robert Wolf
How do you smile when she got what? Are you, Jewish? You’re not smiling. If you’re Christian, you smiling, then, Well, I, I guess I know what party you’re in. You’re in the Nazi party or the Christmas party are very sadistic. Some and Christians were afraid for their lives, too. So the ones that helped the Jewish people or the gays, you know, almost sexual, LGBTQ, disabled, they’re there to be loud.

00:22:00:02 – 00:22:15:03
Robert Wolf
It, including guys like Schindler and Raoul Wallenberg is another one that comes to mind. So a lot going on. I can’t imagine being so remote and, and, secluded from the truth, let alone the news.

00:22:15:06 – 00:22:50:28
Dan LeFebvre
If we shift back to the movies you mentioned life is beautiful, and that’s another movie I want to talk about. That one starts in 1939, just after the annexation of Austria. And it follows the story of how life changes around a Jewish man named Guido before and during the rise of fascism in Italy. And the movie, it starts off with everyday life, but one of the key differences between life is Beautiful and the Sound of Music that we talked about before is that Life Is Beautiful shows how life changes for the main character because he’s an Italian Jewish man, whereas the Von Trapp family in the sound of Music, they’re not so well.

00:22:50:28 – 00:23:12:22
Dan LeFebvre
I, I we see little signs here and there and Sound of Music. We can see the signs in life and beautiful. Life is beautiful. Those signs are clearly the rise of anti-Semitism. They’re going on in Italy now. In particular, there was a scene where Guido pretended to be an inspector of Rome teaching children in school how they are pure Aryan, the superior race.

00:23:12:25 – 00:23:34:00
Dan LeFebvre
He doesn’t have very comical way in the movie, similar to later in the movie, when Guido’s young son just reads a sign in business window that says no Jews or dogs, and Guido makes a joke about there’s just saying. There’s also a drug store nearby saying that I’m not going to let Chinese in with kangaroo. Right. And he’s making a joke out of out of this very serious situation.

00:23:34:03 – 00:23:49:21
Dan LeFebvre
And that storyline in like Life Is Beautiful is a fictional one. Guido is not a real person, but how old do you think life is beautiful? Did showing signs of anti-Semitism slowly growing in everyday life before the outbreak of World War two?

00:23:49:24 – 00:24:06:05
Robert Wolf
Great question. I mean, that’s an our answer, but fantastic movie. Beautifully done. The cinematography is outstanding. I’m glad you mentioned that scene, because to me, that’s the turning point in the movie. The better part of the first half of the movie is about It’s a Beautiful Life. It’s a wonder it’s not It’s a Wonderful Life.

00:24:06:05 – 00:24:27:20
Robert Wolf
That’s a different, fantastic movie, too. But life is beautiful there. He falls in love with this lady. He’s on the bicycle. It’s a lot of humor. I mean, a lot of humor in that movie. Even to the end. And, you know, it’s admirable how he hides the truth from his son throughout, but, yeah, that’s the turning point in the movies when he’s up there talking about the the perfect race or our rewards it.

00:24:27:27 – 00:24:45:01
Robert Wolf
And then the poor, his relatives horse getting painted, I think was green and purple. I forget the color. Maybe green. That’s good. And. Yeah. And and that’s the turning point there. And then all of a sudden, boom, they’re, they’re in prison and they’re going off to, to concentration camps, different some different things.

00:24:45:09 – 00:25:04:29
Robert Wolf
Some of the similarities with my, my parent, they don’t talk about women that much, but both that movie and similar, the, the women, the women guards, especially at Auschwitz and then in these concentration camps were to me more sadistic and more brutal to the prisoners than, than otherwise. Interestingly, a lot of Nazis, the people that were guarding them were the Germans, the Nazis.

00:25:04:29 – 00:25:22:27
Robert Wolf
So where were the Italians? That’s that’s a little bit different than Hungary, I think, because the Hungarians were the ones who keep an eye on the force. Laborers, and child, my dad’s parents were taken from their home. That was, that was a Nazi. Blue striped pajamas. Interesting. It’s a, you know, we don’t know what color stripes they have in general because black and white movie, but it’s blue stripes.

00:25:22:27 – 00:25:39:21
Robert Wolf
But we all know that, you know, outfits in other places, they were, red stripes. So that was, another thing that, that was those was a familiar, but, or different, I should say. I thought, one thing similar with the both of those movies is the language was a little fast for me. It’s in subtitles.

00:25:39:24 – 00:25:56:13
Robert Wolf
Well, I think they just talked a little bit faster. Was a little. Because, you know, we can read fast, but it just won’t have the pace or the how they talk. Maybe at the very beginning, speed it up because it makes the humor, the humor scenes a little more humorous, so to say, so to speak. But, yeah, they kind of slow that down a little bit, too.

00:25:56:15 – 00:26:12:21
Robert Wolf
What else are we? Yeah. I mean, that’s, just a fact. The met the end was unbelievable. The way the they say, do they want or try? They’re playing in a game to win a tank and they won. You know, the kid survives, but he doesn’t. The mom survives. Was a Dora. And, you know, of course you gets shot.

00:26:12:23 – 00:26:31:18
Robert Wolf
He gets shot for warning. The ladies, including his wife, as are being hauled away in a truck. So another thing that may not be realistic is the son and the father in the same bunk. Because the kids were separated, like in Auschwitz and other places, and like a and Schindler, you know, the kids are all the way, in bundles.

00:26:31:18 – 00:26:52:14
Robert Wolf
And boy, are the parents freaking. They’re all running towards the fences and trying to follow the trucks and talk about learned helplessness and senior kids being all the way to who knows where. So that part may not have been as realistic. But yeah, it was such a well-done movie. And, and I don’t know that much about the Italian history in, in World War Two, so that’s that.

00:26:52:14 – 00:27:11:10
Robert Wolf
But comparing what you to the other movie and to what I’ve read and done, and learned about pretty realistic, I mean, in their own way. Obviously not every concentration camps will be the same. Not a forced labor camps going to be the same. The different guards, different, food supply, who knows? Different amounts of sadism.

00:27:11:12 – 00:27:21:00
Robert Wolf
It’s people to take orders and people that delight in torturing others. And that’s so hard to put your arms around to. It’s just. I don’t know how people could be like that at all.

00:27:21:02 – 00:27:41:21
Dan LeFebvre
But you mentioned Schindler’s List, and whenever we think of movies that depict the Holocaust, that’s probably the first one that does come to mind. In that movie, we see what life is like in the Jewish ghetto. Of course, Schindler’s List depicts the ghetto in Krakow, Poland, but your grandparents were forced to move to another Nazi controlled Jewish ghetto in your Hungary.

00:27:41:23 – 00:27:44:15
Dan LeFebvre
I’m probably mispronouncing that, but.

00:27:44:18 – 00:27:49:18
Robert Wolf
My Hungarians not so. They never taught me, so I. It’s fine. That was their shooting around which.

00:27:49:20 – 00:27:57:21
Dan LeFebvre
But based on the research that you did for your book, were there similarities to what we see in Schindler’s List and in the ghetto there, and what your grandparents dealt with?

00:27:57:24 – 00:28:19:27
Robert Wolf
Many, many, many. First, I want to talk about, so many. I mean, unfortunately, the movie was in black and white, but the cinematography in that movie is unbelievable. Like I said, they talk a little fast, especially when they’re talking about people’s names a little fast for me, some of the conversation, but, amazing. Some overlap when when they’re taken to Auschwitz, we don’t know if it’s accidentally or if it’s on purpose.

00:28:20:04 – 00:28:37:05
Robert Wolf
And they put them in the chamber and they think that that’s it. The gas chamber and the relief showers. I can picture my mom, my my grandmother, in the in the gas chamber. And, of course, when they’re on trains, when I visit Holocaust museums, when I do book talks, book lectures, I can’t even go into the I.

00:28:37:05 – 00:29:01:10
Robert Wolf
It’s hard to even look in the train, let alone go in the train just because. Just because that imagery. So, so that resonates. The dramatic irony. I guess I can get that, in a minute, but, the random shooting. Okay, so dramatic irony. I’m going to mention the three things where I well, first of all, the turning point is when they’re horseback riding and they’re randomly shooting all the people in the ghetto, the people that stayed, the people that that tried to hide very, very sad scene.

00:29:01:10 – 00:29:18:21
Robert Wolf
Because every. And you know, another thing that’s not talked about is pets. You know, how many did the pets get left behind and the pets get killed. And we know in, life is beautiful. There’s a little kitten, is strolling around the, the clothes that were stolen. Another thing. And I’m going to go back to the dramatic irony, another thing that resonates.

00:29:18:24 – 00:29:35:21
Robert Wolf
With all of it is the stolen luggage. They bring your goods, leave them here, and they’ll come. They will arrive. Big deception. And when my dad’s parents were all to Auschwitz, it was to be they were going to go to forest or farm, plant flowers, trees. Do you know, do, work on the foliage? That’s what.

00:29:35:21 – 00:29:53:15
Robert Wolf
That’s how they were to see. And they end up going to Auschwitz. So. So three points of dramatic irony, not necessarily related to my, my dad, but one is actually. So when, the, engineer they’re building the they’re constructing the building and the engineer comes up to, I think it’s almond goes, I don’t know if I’m pronouncing or I’m on both.

00:29:53:15 – 00:30:09:27
Robert Wolf
He’s the I think he’s a lieutenant, but he’s the most sadistic guy around. And, she says to me now, the structure is not sound, and we need to do this and maybe even start again. And, what does he say? We are not going to argue with these people. And and then he asks the guy shooter, shooter.

00:30:09:27 – 00:30:28:01
Robert Wolf
And it’s one of the few scenes where somebody gets shot and it’s not him doing it. So amazingly enough. And then the irony is that he decides to he changes his mind and, and decides to, to take it down and start all over again. Another irony was, the the lady that comes to Schindler, I don’t know if that was Helen Hirsch.

00:30:28:04 – 00:30:50:13
Robert Wolf
Helen, her hair, shoes, how to pronounce it. I don’t know if it’s her or the other one, but she comes to Schindler and says, can you get my parents into this? Into the factory here? And he says, you know, he’s practically screaming at her, saying, no, I can’t save everybody this and that and that. And then the guy escapes from the camp and, and just, randomly shoots 25 guys and then just Clarkston.

00:30:50:13 – 00:31:23:23
Robert Wolf
If I’m pronouncing Sharon I love, they really did their best trying to do the correct pronunciation and I think an accurate job. But stern tells Schindler that, you know, 25 people died. So Schindler, goes out of his way to bring in, the lady’s parents, which is which is pretty cool, too. I mean, and, so the other irony and oh, that resonates with my dad in the forced labor camp where, an officer would get drunk and some, some little piece of malfeasance, like somebody chirping a word or or moving in the line, and the guy gets past and he’s,

00:31:23:25 – 00:31:40:18
Robert Wolf
And he’s got the he’s got the gun. And, you threatened to shoot every tense man, in his drunk, in his drunk, state, and, in the end, doesn’t. But imagine the fear. You know, you dad, it can seem like that. And everybody else counting 1 to 1 through ten, you know, every 10th man they’re going to kill.

00:31:40:20 – 00:31:58:01
Robert Wolf
And, And the guy does that, too. He’s got the whole line of the men, and he shoots the guy with the, with the, I don’t remember. It’s a gun shot. I think it was a, shotgun. And then they shoot him in the head and and that, like, that scene is so vivid. The way that was bleeding, it would’ve been even more so in color.

00:31:58:04 – 00:32:16:22
Robert Wolf
But the irony there is the same thing. Just like when he randomly shoots the 25 men and, also the one person, and then he says, who’s, you know, who’s next? And then the kid smart enough to step forward and said, you know, you who did this? Who’s the one who created the malfeasance? And the kid points at the dead guy and probably saved a lot of lives, just by doing that.

00:32:16:22 – 00:32:36:01
Robert Wolf
So that’s more irony. And then and, and comparable with my dad had to go through, you know, random threaten to be killed randomly and thank God, they, they didn’t carry that out. The other piece of irony, which is almost redemption itself, is when, the I think it was the rabbi, was one of the older men making the parts, and his productivity was on the low side that compared it.

00:32:36:01 – 00:32:52:17
Robert Wolf
You know, it took some a minute to make the part, which is where you got so few partially take him out to shoot him and his gun jams and, you know, his backup gun jams, and he gets a gun from his, mother, the fellow officers and or soldiers, I don’t remember. It was an officer. And that gun jams and there’s 15 or 20 clicks.

00:32:52:19 – 00:33:08:03
Robert Wolf
We shoot this guy, and the poor guy’s got his neck going down. He knows he’s going to die any second. It reminds me of that, the Vilna, the Vilna photograph. And then he ends up just sitting with the butt of the gun and and lets him live. Imagine going through that kind of trauma and not having PTSD.

00:33:08:05 – 00:33:23:13
Robert Wolf
It’s amazing. But the irony is, when they hang golf, they have a trouble date. They’ve got him by the rope, but they have trouble checking out those. The step stool underneath him, it takes some at least like a half a minute. They can’t do it in the guy. So that’s a little bit of redemption too. But, more dramatic irony.

00:33:23:13 – 00:33:42:17
Robert Wolf
So I it’s a fantastically bad movie. And and so, so similar in in his point, you know, the trains and the, or the, forced labor and, you know, we see forced labor, of course, in concentration camps to sometimes women, sometimes men. We don’t talk about much about forced labor in, with women in our story.

00:33:42:17 – 00:33:48:08
Robert Wolf
But lately I’ve been taught and enlightened about that part, that part of it as well.

00:33:48:10 – 00:34:06:19
Dan LeFebvre
Something that we don’t see in Schindler’s List much is, is how others in the city reacted to the ghetto being set up and the Nazis moving the Jews into it. How did the civilians in and around Europe react to the Jewish ghetto being established for when your your grandparents were there?

00:34:06:21 – 00:34:23:12
Robert Wolf
Well, once they were in the ghetto, they had no access to the outside world. They had limited food, limited medical supplies and my dad, being a dentist, brought what he had. But it wasn’t enough. And ultimately it was to carry him off to Auschwitz to kill them. Most of them immediately, unfortunately. So I don’t think they had much time to even think about it.

00:34:23:12 – 00:34:48:26
Robert Wolf
But during, I’ll say this, that, but they were shunned. No doubt it was hard to go out shopping without being, bullied or picked on or even mugged. We talk about that in the or the fear of it. And also when my, my dad and his friend Frank were out on leave or whatever it was in town, or in that they were on camp, for one thing they didn’t have, then my dad needed a haircut.

00:34:48:26 – 00:35:06:12
Robert Wolf
And if you remember that scene, the anti-Semitic barber. But, they had the yellow bands was ridiculous hats that they had to wear and yellow bit unarmed paramilitary. And yeah, a couple what beautiful women walk by and they, they, they won’t even look at them. And believe me, the matter, they’re dying to meet A and B with a a warm blooded girl.

00:35:06:12 – 00:35:26:18
Robert Wolf
And it just didn’t happen. You were shunned. So, in its learned helplessness. I mean, people feared for their lives, for sure. And, they did what they were told, and and it’s scary stuff. So, and then. Oh, that remind me of another scene where in Schindler, the young girl, is yelling out, Goodbye Jews, goodbye Jews!

00:35:26:18 – 00:35:44:17
Robert Wolf
And, it’s awful to see that, because I think it reminds me of, what we just talked about. The Christians turning on the Jews. It also reminds me of what’s going on in Gaza at the, these children are being educated to hate Jewish people, hate Israel, hate Americans. And it’s that’s got to stop. That really has to stop.

00:35:44:20 – 00:36:03:18
Dan LeFebvre
There is a scene in in Schindler’s List where we see the Nazis going in there clearing everyone out of the ghetto, to take them to the concentration camps. You talked a little bit about that in the movie. The camps they take them to first is off, and then later in the movie we see Auschwitz, which you mentioned, and we’ll talk about Auschwitz in a moment, because I know your grandparents were there.

00:36:03:18 – 00:36:22:07
Dan LeFebvre
But according to Schindler’s List, seeing the brutality of the Nazi soldiers during the liquidation of the ghetto, that’s what leads Liam Neeson’s version of Oskar Schindler to start working with one of his employees. You mentioned him earlier. Is Doc Stern, Ben Kingsley’s character, to hire more and more Jews to help save them from being murdered by the Nazis.

00:36:22:09 – 00:36:36:13
Dan LeFebvre
Were there any transformational points like this for the civilians in Darfur in Hungary, where they started to change their minds about what they’re seeing? But the brutality of the Nazis, like, we kind of start seeing it happening in Schindler’s List with Oskar Schindler.

00:36:36:16 – 00:36:52:09
Robert Wolf
Well, great point. You know, that’s the turning point of that movie. If I haven’t already mentioned, when they’re horseback riding. Yeah, they’re looking down at that. One thing that resonates, too, is, the humiliation, the the general, the the men, the rabbis, you know, religious with the pious ain’t undercutting it. And they’re cutting their hair and laughing.

00:36:52:15 – 00:37:11:18
Robert Wolf
So that kind of humiliation, was there so humiliation we don’t talk about, as much. I think the Aryans were. And Hungary gets mentioned later that they were bringing in Hungarians, to one of the camps late, later in the movie. And that was true later in time, during at least a couple of years later. But that humiliation really, really resonates.

00:37:11:18 – 00:37:30:24
Robert Wolf
Well, what else is it? Yeah. The marching, the other humiliation is that, Gough has his own personal woman slave that he ends up abusing y’all. She’s. She goes the food and probably sex. Well, there is there is a sex scene or two in there. And of course, at the end he beats her up and but she survives.

00:37:30:27 – 00:37:46:29
Robert Wolf
But he beats her up and it’s drunk or whatever. It’s the wine cellar. I basically remember that scene, but, humiliation is a big thing about it. So, and then, of course, starvation is another one thing that resonates people to didn’t have food to eat. There was no there was no trade. There was nothing coming in. So shunned is the best word.

00:37:46:29 – 00:38:08:15
Robert Wolf
And like we said before, the the witness, the witness was the next victim. I also remember, golf shooting randomly at people that were sitting down and taking a break. So, Oh, and know the dramatic irony. He has a kid cleaning out his bathtub, and he’s trying to put the saddle on his horse. I don’t know if it’s the same kid, but, the guy that the kid that can’t put the kettle on the horse properly.

00:38:08:17 – 00:38:25:12
Robert Wolf
It’s right after Schindler talks about power and the power of the power, if you can forgive. And he remembers that for a while. So he forgives the kid, for the for the saddle. But then when he screws up using the wrong material to clean his bathtub, he ends up shooting him. And, it’s just, What a sadistic guy.

00:38:25:12 – 00:38:40:24
Robert Wolf
I mean, I was a guy who deserved to be executed without, without trial. I mean, so many witnesses. So, Yeah, that whole process, of course, it’s never going to be the same at every camp, but what? People running around in fear that they might get shot or killed, or if they take a break, they’re going to get killed.

00:38:41:02 – 00:38:48:14
Robert Wolf
You can’t. It’s just, some furthermore that what people had to think in their minds and stay strong while they’re doing it.

00:38:48:17 – 00:39:11:18
Dan LeFebvre
That those, those types of things are, like you said, unfathomable. Like it’s I, it’s what I’m trying to unravel. A lot of this. But, you know, in our discussion here, but also there are just some things like we there’s only so much that we can do as we’re talking here in this conversation that just it’s not. It will never be enough.

00:39:11:18 – 00:39:20:03
Dan LeFebvre
I mean, there’s to to to tell the true story of it. I mean, it’s yeah, I’ve tried to have words, but yeah, I can’t even do that.

00:39:20:10 – 00:39:42:08
Robert Wolf
Well, it was talk about Christians. You know, if we had Hamas, we had Hamas tanks and armored armored cars, guns, tanks, then that horrible flag, you know, marched in the streets here and, and, Florida or where you’re from, Oklahoma. God bless, the heartland. We would be thinking different then, it would affect us more then we would have.

00:39:42:10 – 00:40:03:26
Robert Wolf
We’d have a lot more fear. Yeah, but it’s it’s patchy areas. It’s Canada, Australia, parts of the U.S anti-Semitic. So it’s not it’s not directly in our face. But that’s why I’m doing this is so that it doesn’t happen. I mean, that’s why, 99% of us are good people. 99% of us believe in work, family, occasional vacation, religion, and if possible, whatever the freedom to vote, freedom speech.

00:40:03:29 – 00:40:26:01
Robert Wolf
Is that 1% or less that the ruins are for everybody and not just Hamas, you know, Osama bin laden and Saddam Hussein? Hitler, Pol Pot, the list goes on and on. We can counteract with better names Jesus, Moses, Noah, MLK, Gandhi, that. So there’s a nice there’s a balance there. But, we’re still talking about hate and war rather than these other guys.

00:40:26:01 – 00:40:41:27
Robert Wolf
I mean, unless you’re a staunch Christian or Jewish or Muslim, I don’t think a lot I meant for this to happen. Where? I don’t know, I don’t know much about the Muslim religion, but I do have Muslim friends, and they’re peaceful, and, So what’s going. I mean, I can’t get my arms around it. And, the thing about this book.

00:40:42:01 – 00:40:59:15
Robert Wolf
Yeah. And the story is my parents knew that it would be necessary to share it because they didn’t think that the hate and the Jewish scapegoating issue would go away. And each year they’re right, 60, 80 on our years. And the disturbing part is people find different ways to maim and torture, punish, kill each other. And it’s really sad.

00:40:59:15 – 00:41:16:27
Robert Wolf
And I just I can’t feel it because as a radiologist, we’re into preservation of life. The beauty of the human body, the beauty of the anatomy, the cell and all this training to go through it. There’s no room for racism or prejudice in my field. But these people would just. They would think nothing about chopping your head off or killing somebody instantly.

00:41:17:00 – 00:41:37:07
Robert Wolf
No respect for human life. And I can’t wrap my my hands around that. It’s just not that. It’s not what I was built for. And so we educate, we try to spread the word. We do podcasts, we do, book talks, book presentations, TV interviews, in some cases radio. And, we get the point across while sharing good stories, amazing stories throughout.

00:41:37:07 – 00:42:05:13
Dan LeFebvre
A lot of if you go back to Schindler’s List throughout a lot of that movie, it it does recreate the I mentioned your passion and and Auschwitz and where there were hundreds of thousands of people that were murdered. And unfortunately, that number also includes your grandparents, which is a very moving story told in the book. I think a lot of people base their knowledge of concentration camps today on what we see in movies like Schindler’s List.

00:42:05:15 – 00:42:23:23
Dan LeFebvre
But I remember the story of like The Latrine. And in your book, we don’t ever see in the movie Schindler’s List at all. So there’s obviously other things there that we don’t we’re not going to see in the movie. But based on what you know of your grandparents experience, how well do you think Schindler’s List does capturing the horrors of Auschwitz?

00:42:23:26 – 00:42:44:19
Robert Wolf
I think it’s amazing. Like I said, the cinematography is amazing. The storyline and the brutality. We’ll go back to the women guards that were were tougher than one thing that resonates. So, I mean, I don’t like spoiling too meaning, but my my dad’s a miracle. And my dad found out what happened to his parents. An eyewitness who happened to survive Auschwitz and meet, meet up with him in his hometown of Jura.

00:42:44:19 – 00:43:06:28
Robert Wolf
I mean, all of those. That’s a miracle after miracle that that happened. But, Yeah, being in the train reminded me of, my my my grandmother, the grandparents I never met, but my grandmother, was an orphan, a little girl orphan. And they went straight to the chamber. So, and actually, when I did that, when I first did this project, turning it from autobiography to biography, I had to walk away from from the book.

00:43:06:28 – 00:43:25:24
Robert Wolf
I had to walk away from the story for at least a week, ten days, because it profoundly affected me. So, so. And, you know, I hate to say this, but fortunately, she didn’t have to it. Her life didn’t have to linger on for months, months at a time. And where you’re starving and you’re trapped and you were on your forced labor, and you don’t know when your last day is going to be, Schindler.

00:43:25:24 – 00:43:40:00
Robert Wolf
I think they capture all of that pretty well. I mean, everybody’s going to have a different story. But it didn’t go well. And then another thing that resonates is my my grandfather, who was a dentist who told the the, the intake people at the intake that he was a dentist was a doctor, and he might be useful.

00:43:40:06 – 00:43:55:27
Robert Wolf
So they assign him to cleaning latrines, and we don’t see that in Schindler. But we sure see all these kids hiding in Auschwitz, including the one that you get shut out by every other letter, every other kid. And then he’s up, he ends up diving into the feces and he hides in the latrine or whatever you want.

00:43:56:04 – 00:44:07:07
Robert Wolf
It’s disgusting. I mean, I can’t imagine what was the movie with the kid from India who does the same thing. He ends up diving into the, into the feces, and it just, the. Joe, remember that movie?

00:44:07:07 – 00:44:07:24
Dan LeFebvre
Yes.

00:44:07:29 – 00:44:10:07
Robert Wolf
And he’s on jeopardy or something like.

00:44:10:09 – 00:44:11:14
Dan LeFebvre
Slumdog Millionaire.

00:44:11:16 – 00:44:15:27
Robert Wolf
Yes. Very good. Thank you. I knew you were. No, you got a brilliant memory. I can.

00:44:15:27 – 00:44:17:01
Dan LeFebvre
Go on.

00:44:17:03 – 00:44:35:10
Robert Wolf
And that’s the. Yeah. That’s good. I mean, I need more people like you helped me with the message. This is why we’re doing this, too. But, talking about great movies and and a story that could be a movie. At least some people say that, so, so that resonate. Yeah. And then. So these were I went by at least my, my dad’s parents, didn’t have to endure all that.

00:44:35:12 – 00:44:51:20
Robert Wolf
I mean, if you’ve ever fasted just one day without food, it’s tough enough. I can’t imagine week after week, we would bury little food. And, you know, you’ve seen the pictures of the people that are skin and bones. Those that were lucky enough to survive. But, what a what a terrible life. They must have adapted and they had to live then.

00:44:51:22 – 00:44:56:13
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, it goes back to the words don’t really do it justice to to.

00:44:56:15 – 00:45:13:09
Robert Wolf
Not only that that personal. It’s the light. The light. So. So my dad’s father died probably of cholera week from the feces, you know. So that was, but there’s tuberculosis. There’s lice. My dad had a foot infection, when he was in, when he was forced labor camp, and he had lice a couple times. He had hepatitis.

00:45:13:09 – 00:45:30:10
Robert Wolf
He had a bad back. He had a lot going on. And then. And then recently talking about women in forced labor camps. There’s this guy in England, super nice and super dedicated to what we’re doing. He’s turning black and white photos into color photos, and he’s doing a good job, and he’s trying to get financial support for that.

00:45:30:12 – 00:45:48:13
Robert Wolf
But he did a, it was a short it was a short little documentary, maybe 2 or 3 minutes, maybe five, with conversion from black and white to color. And it was the forced labor. The women forced laborers from Hungary. And a lot of them had gangrene. They had gangrenous legs and gangrenous feet. And they actually, they depicted, what their skin look like.

00:45:48:13 – 00:46:12:14
Robert Wolf
And it’s brutal that. So, you know, you’d never think of gangrene. I mean, so a lot of health issues besides the starvation and lack of water to, of course, dehydration and, you know, electrolytes going to be off and, and, muscle mass goes and eventually you die because you’re, you’re malnourished. So I’m sure many, many people died from, I don’t know the exact numbers, but malnourishment, I’m sure, was not just getting shot or put in the gas chambers.

00:46:12:14 – 00:46:33:06
Robert Wolf
Just. Or other sickness, malnourishment, sickness. It’s just too much. It’s too much to think about. It’s 200. It is. And that need doesn’t need to happen. And it also resonates with Gaza. It with what’s the prisoners that are still there? I can’t imagine even if they released them today, the ones that are still alive, just talk about PTSD, talk about trying to overcome that kind of trauma, not knowing when your last day is.

00:46:33:06 – 00:46:38:03
Robert Wolf
Mostly that’s that’s the big thing, the wait and the boredom and, horror fun.

00:46:38:05 – 00:46:49:06
Dan LeFebvre
If we shift back to the movie, there’s, we’re talking about Schindler’s List, and that’s going to be the most popular movie about someone saving Jewish lives during the Holocaust. But it’s not the.

00:46:49:08 – 00:46:56:08
Robert Wolf
The Ten Commandments. Well, I gotta say, that’s a fantastic movie, too. But, I don’t mean. Sorry to interrupt. Yes.

00:46:56:09 – 00:47:01:15
Dan LeFebvre
No no no no no, that’s a that’s a classic a little bit outside the time frame that we’re talking about now.

00:47:01:15 – 00:47:07:18
Robert Wolf
And I’m kidding then Fiddler on the roof was another one. But it was a Rorschach. But, you know, that was a lot of anti-Semitism there too. But go ahead. I’m sorry.

00:47:07:18 – 00:47:41:02
Dan LeFebvre
I know you’re there’s another movie, called walking with the enemy about a Hungarian Jew named Ella Cohen, who he dresses up in an SS uniform to help rescue other Jews. Now, Ella Cohen is another fictional character, but he is based on a real person. Again, with with pronunciation. I believe it’s, Pincus Rosenbaum. He was disguised. He disguised himself in uniforms of the SS, the Hungarian Arrow Cross, which you mentioned earlier, the the Hungarian Lavant and the with the purpose of of saving, I believe hundreds of Jews.

00:47:41:04 – 00:47:51:15
Dan LeFebvre
During your research, did you come across other stories like Oskar Schindler or like Rosenbaum, of people who risked their lives to save the lives of others?

00:47:51:18 – 00:48:11:04
Robert Wolf
Raoul Wallenberg, my my, my dad and his friend Frank had those, passes, those forged papers. And he did, I don’t know, hundreds, thousands of them to help save people. Wallenberg was from Sweden, if I’m not mistaken. And I believe he was Jewish, but fantastic what he did. You going back to Schindler real quick is the way he laments.

00:48:11:04 – 00:48:26:23
Robert Wolf
You know this. Amongst all the murders he did no lamentation. You know. No. No sense of, of of, of mortality, no sense of, what’s the word I’m looking for? It just does. It doesn’t bother. And it doesn’t affect you.

00:48:26:25 – 00:48:29:21
Dan LeFebvre
No sense of decency. I mean, humanity, like Mr..

00:48:29:25 – 00:48:49:17
Robert Wolf
Schindler saving all these people. And he’s still got his car and he’s still got, like, enough jewelry or whatever. Yet on on him, he used his rings and he still your e remorse about. That’s the what I was and will remark you remorse is he elements about how he could have saved another eight or 10 or 12 Jewish people and and they had to console him because of that.

00:48:49:17 – 00:49:19:28
Robert Wolf
He cries, he breaks down. It’s a real it’s a real irony too. So, Yeah, but, but so he helps. So like Wallenberg, probably countless, Christian people, the Christians out, my dad, I mean, he wouldn’t survive without a lot of Christian help. Now, these aren’t famous stories, but being able to go to a casino, and hide in a casino, hide in a, a nunnery or, nursing home, with demented people and and, where else did he, his friend, hiding in a haberdashery and a hatbox, that kind of thing.

00:49:19:28 – 00:49:36:08
Robert Wolf
A lot of Christians help them. And then even after that, during communist Hungary, my my dad was getting, a few shekels sent, from Israel, from my mother’s mother and stepfather at this point, who was a Marky Mark in Israel, a consulate to Hungary. So they’d sneak them a few shekels, to, to this place in Budapest.

00:49:36:08 – 00:49:53:03
Robert Wolf
And my dad, it was a cloak and dagger story, the way my dad had to weave in and out of buildings to sneak to get that money, because he could have been in prison for that, too. So, a lot of people helped Jewish and Christian. Those that could a lot didn’t, again, fear for their lives. Not a lot of famous, well, here’s one actually.

00:49:53:03 – 00:50:14:15
Robert Wolf
Sorry. In communist Hungary, though, it’s not. My parents had an illegal Jewish wedding in 1953. My mom’s uncle, what? He sponsored that in his home. And like I say, it was illegal, and KGB was there, so, and my parents, when my parents, were on their honeymoon, the. He got arrested. He was a surgeon, chief of surgery in a Budapest hospital.

00:50:14:18 – 00:50:30:28
Robert Wolf
And they Waldemar for 13 months tortured him and, try to get him to confess to the to the murder. I think it was Wallenberg, if I’m not mistaken. So. And he wouldn’t he wouldn’t do it. And he was he came back a broken man, and obviously. And then they put him out in some rural clinic or something.

00:50:31:00 – 00:50:55:22
Robert Wolf
He ended up, ironically, in Sweden, where he had a successful career, and, solo daughter Susie, who was the last survivor in my book and just died in Jerusalem. Couple that soon after the attacks. 12 or 7. So she was comatose at the time and long standing on. And so as bad as that was, and it was great busier the year before, at least enough to know, about what was happening in Gaza and Israel.

00:50:55:22 – 00:51:22:01
Robert Wolf
So, all of them rest in peace. But yeah, so there’s famous and there’s not so famous in the autobiography. My dad mentions Mengele, that that is that Mengele greeted his father. But, the research that we this was a lot of research in our book, multiple people, historians, but, Berenbaum, Michael Berenbaum, who was one of the professors who wrote a tremendous, testimonial to other professors, did too.

00:51:22:02 – 00:51:38:06
Robert Wolf
They’re all good. But he mentions that don’t mix up where we’re talking about an Auschwitz because he had been there. He knows the history. And so we we took out Mengele. But, it may well be. And this is speculation that my dad’s father met Mengele, and he was the one that appealed since he was a doctor, too.

00:51:38:08 – 00:51:54:27
Robert Wolf
He was brutal himself, right? I mean, taking our feelings and using, humans as, for experiments and all that. But, if it was him or whoever it was, I guess I can’t call it nice, but got him a week’s worth. Two weeks worth of life, even though that week was miserable. So there are people that,

00:51:54:29 – 00:52:04:00
Robert Wolf
Yeah, the circles there are overlapping circles, for sure. And, as soon as we are done, I’ll probably think a couple more or two, but, you never know. And that’s a great question.

00:52:04:02 – 00:52:23:15
Dan LeFebvre
I think it’s great to know that. I mean, there are the famous one. Oskar Schindler obviously is famous, but he’s famous because of the movie and and the book and the as well. But he wasn’t doing it for fame. And there’s, you know, a lot of these stories, like you’re talking about the they’re not well known now, but that’s not why they were doing it.

00:52:23:15 – 00:52:54:21
Dan LeFebvre
They were doing it to help fellow humans. And I think that’s that in and of itself is a little bit of a light in, you know, in this dark time of history where there’s all this going on. But there are some people that will help. And I I’m happy to hear that. Yes, there were others that even though we might not know their names and whoever’s listening to this may not know their names, but they were still hoping because it was the right thing to do, not because they wanted to get their name, you know, a movie made about them.

00:52:54:26 – 00:53:00:16
Dan LeFebvre
So that we’d be talking about them on a podcast later. But, you know, it’s just the right thing to do.

00:53:00:18 – 00:53:20:26
Robert Wolf
Yeah. No, it’s it’s very palpable. And, you know, you really identify with Schindler and you always have the it’s another ironic thing. You have the swastika. Yeah. The little swastika on a super all the time. But it was, it was this guys, you know, that was it. But you’re right. He just did it out of, the love for human beings and and that that goes for Moses and that goes for Jesus and Gandhi and all these other former leaders.

00:53:20:26 – 00:53:35:03
Robert Wolf
And, of course they got some recognition, of course. But, and another one that comes to mind is Captain Khomeini. If you remember his, he’s the one who got them the forged papers. And, and I believe if I did my memory short, I’m going through my book again. You have to. Every so often. There’s never all the details.

00:53:35:11 – 00:53:54:17
Robert Wolf
But, he might have been Jewish, but since he was a big guy in the military, he had, privileges. So he helped my dad out to more than once, too. So that was another one. You may have been Christian, maybe Jewish, but, I’m glad that my parents didn’t know more famous people because. Or my grandparents, I should say, because, that to me, been more apt to be killed.

00:53:54:19 – 00:54:10:25
Robert Wolf
It didn’t matter anyway. But, if they lived in the out in the middle of nowhere, which Jer was, and it was a, pretty, very populated, industrial town. So, and that was it. They were they were in Transylvania first. And Albert. Julia, if I’m not pronouncing that right, might be I mean, if it was Spanish would be Albert.

00:54:10:27 – 00:54:42:04
Robert Wolf
Julia, I guess, or Julia it might be, but. Albert. Julia. So they they loved Mother Hungary, as do my parents. And, they decided to go back to George. So instead of living Transylvania. So. And that might have been an ill fated decision to my mom and dad. Love mother Hungary, too, by the way, and would have probably stayed if the Americans had taken over rather than the Soviets, because they had had enough with the two wars and, and and countless persecution, illegal weddings, torture, deaths and, deception.

00:54:42:04 – 00:54:58:18
Robert Wolf
You know, their, their colleagues and friends and fellow doctors were trying to get them to convert to the communist ideal. And my parents wouldn’t buy into that. And, and that state, the the Soviets, in their arrogance, called my dad not a real enemy. And that’s what they really were. They love Mother Hungary, but they weren’t going to stay.

00:54:58:21 – 00:55:13:17
Robert Wolf
My mom was a med school, by the way, to winning them. So. And dad was already in okay. And and he had to double down as a trauma surgeon during a revolution. So they’re both frontliners. And after that they said and they were closing the borders and people were leaving in droves. But they managed to get out.

00:55:13:21 – 00:55:19:13
Robert Wolf
That’s my dad’s fourth escape, which is they’re all harrowing, but, memorable for sure.

00:55:19:15 – 00:55:42:17
Dan LeFebvre
Right. Mentioning Hungary and, earlier I mentioned Ben Kingsley and Schindler’s List and that how that movie started in 1939. But Ben Kingsley is in another movie called walking with the enemy, and he plays another person that you mentioned, Regent Horthy, the Hungarian leader. That movie takes place in 1944, when the Germans finally occupy Hungary. And Regent Horthy doesn’t want to let the Nazis take the Jews.

00:55:42:17 – 00:55:58:02
Dan LeFebvre
So he’s trying to sign a deal with the Soviet Union to get the Nazis out of Hungary. But then in a group called Arrow Cross, which you had also mentioned earlier, takes control of Hungary up until the Red Army pushes the Nazis out of the during the siege of Budapest. This is all as far as the movie is concerned.

00:55:58:02 – 00:56:03:09
Dan LeFebvre
But what really happened with Hungarian, Polish artists during World War Two?

00:56:03:11 – 00:56:20:21
Robert Wolf
Oh well, that’s you. And you kind of said it yourself. I mean, you needed a guide. You needed it literally. So Horthy takes over after he was an admirable admiral in World War One. He takes over Hungary again. The Jews feel like he’s he’s not, friendly to the Jews, even though what if what you say is true, that might be the opposite.

00:56:20:21 – 00:56:23:24
Robert Wolf
But, kudos to him for for trying to prevent that.

00:56:23:26 – 00:56:26:25
Dan LeFebvre
Well, I was in the movie. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but that’s the way the movie presents.

00:56:26:25 – 00:56:40:06
Robert Wolf
Oh, yeah. Got to see the movie in and review the book and compare notes. There’s not a lot in the book about there’s a lot of history, but it’s it’s history light. I call it my coauthor, Janice. If it weren’t for her, I wouldn’t be here. She’s a fantastic writer, but helped me turn the book and something really special.

00:56:40:06 – 00:56:56:26
Robert Wolf
But, if you were a junior school, they had the red chair. There’s a white chair. You know, you didn’t have communism. It was in then. They’re trying to say communism is no good. They’re beating up people. They’re going door to door. And then, of course, the rise of fascism, the Nazis entering, the, entering Hungary.

00:56:56:26 – 00:57:27:26
Robert Wolf
So the political climate then was you did what the Nazis said or you’re screwed. You know, that was Hungary trying to fight Germany. It was horse horses versus tanks, you know. How does that let me know how that goes for you. Right. And then, finally 1944 or 45, you Arrow cross, tremendously anti-Semitic. In my, I, maybe like a Gestapo or KGB type thing, they were worse to the Jews and they went out of their way opposite of Schindler, where, you know, the last day of the war and all the guards you only day, that’s all the guards.

00:57:27:26 – 00:57:42:24
Robert Wolf
And, in with the, prisoners, the laborers, and, he openly invites them to, to do what they want with them. Kill them or not. Or you can go home to your families, he says, and they all even go, well, that’s not what it was like in Hungary that at the end of the war, they went out of their way to kill as many Hungarians as they could.

00:57:42:27 – 00:58:07:09
Robert Wolf
And we all know about this. The Danube River, 21,000 Jewish people were shot to death, in cold blood, without their clothes on in the winter. December 43rd, January 44th. And, so that’s, it’s complete. Opposite of Schindler and it’s very set. So that’s the politics then. And of course, communism takes over. And, you know, we get the Stalin years and, and they wouldn’t go away.

00:58:07:09 – 00:58:25:20
Robert Wolf
And the irony is, like if the Americans had one or the West, the allies, then I probably wouldn’t be here. And I’d probably been born and raised in Hungary and maybe got lucky enough to go to med school. But they they left for the U.S., so. And then obviously, the Soviet, the Red Army and Soviet stayed on for forever and ever and ever.

00:58:25:23 – 00:58:45:13
Robert Wolf
Maybe now it’s a little bit of a democracy, but I don’t know much about recent Hungarian politics. But what I’ve seen and heard, the, Orban is, is Putin’s puppet. And, I could see him doing land for people. Deal, without dropping out. And let’s listen on. Jared’s never got a break for 80, 100 years, the most the majority of the 20th century was.

00:58:45:20 – 00:59:03:23
Robert Wolf
And the sad thing is, Hungarian Jews were. Well, if we’re going to flash, flash back to before World War one, 1890s, you know, the gay 90s and all that, Hungarian Jews and Jews in Europe were well treated. They were well respected. And and that boy that that climate turned, between world War one, World War two and and beyond with the Communist.

00:59:03:23 – 00:59:21:27
Robert Wolf
So, so Stalin dies in 53. That was good news. Hungarian, because he was really brutal, and I and Hungary in 56, they have their revolution. And, it goes badly for them. And then the hard liners became even more so because they were clamping down on the citizens. They didn’t want people to revolt.

00:59:21:27 – 00:59:37:12
Robert Wolf
And and they almost they didn’t almost win, but they almost got the Soviets out of there. And then just something changed about it. But instead of less, it became more with all the tanks coming in. And, that’s something that my dad said to the were that the men that were driving the tanks were from the Far East.

00:59:37:12 – 00:59:55:04
Robert Wolf
They were from, I don’t think it was Malaysia, maybe Burma. But they thought they were in Egypt. They thought they were in the Sinai, the Sinai War in 56. But they weren’t. They were. They were in Hungary fighting. So, that’s that was an interesting little tidbit. So it’s kind of like, oh, sorry, the North Koreans, you know, going to fight with the Russians kind of sounds like that, right?

00:59:55:04 – 01:00:01:08
Robert Wolf
They, they, you know, they recruit, they recruit people from other countries. Well, World War II was all about that, too.

01:00:01:08 – 01:00:26:05
Dan LeFebvre
But you you mentioned World War One and even before World War One, and that lead right into the last movie that I want to talk to you about, today’s, 1999 film, epic film called sunshine. I know up until now we’ve mostly talked about World War Two, but sunshine focuses on three generations of characters, all played by Ray finds across generations of a family called the Sun Shines, a, Hungarian Jewish family.

01:00:26:11 – 01:00:44:23
Dan LeFebvre
And the movie goes from the end of the 19th century with Hungarian nationalism through World War One, World War Two, and then into the Hungarian Revolution in 1956. And the first generation of the movie we see refines version of ignite, Sun and Shine. He wants to be a judge, but to do that he has to change his last name to something.

01:00:44:23 – 01:01:03:18
Dan LeFebvre
According to the movie is more Hungarian, so he changes it to show where there pressure even before the rise of fascism. Because in the movie this is happening, you know, before World War one and 19th century, was there pressure for Hungarians to hide their Jewish heritage?

01:01:03:20 – 01:01:18:12
Robert Wolf
Yeah. I’m thank you for reminding me of that movie, because I’ve heard of it recently and I didn’t remember the title. So if you don’t mind, please email me that, because that’s something that sounds like. But it’s totally, it’s encountered distinction too. Oh, he was in Schindler. I mean, that that kind of, that kind of wants to be a judge.

01:01:18:18 – 01:01:37:27
Robert Wolf
And he’s an excellent actor, don’t get me wrong. But, and so is the guy that played Schindler, you know, Liam, Liam Neeson, and we back to Ben Kingsley. But yeah, my dad’s parents converted. They converted to Christianity, reluctantly, but they did. And, it was so he could practice dentistry and hide his heritage. And my dad’s mother hated it, and.

01:01:37:27 – 01:01:55:00
Robert Wolf
But they did. So, and I’m sure a lot of other Hungarian Jews did. I mean, I’ve read about it and heard that other Hungarian used it in it, and of course, hiding certain valuables, hiding radios, hiding your religion. That was a part of your heritage. And it’s horrible thing. Now, they weren’t that religious, but for the Orthodox Jew either.

01:01:55:00 – 01:02:14:14
Robert Wolf
Good luck having that up. And, until they got to Auschwitz and you weren’t allowed to practice religion or do anything, they shaved off all your hair, humiliated you, killed you, clowns too. Not just the religious were clowns. But they were fortunate enough to convert back. My. I’m a mr. Cronenberg. My dad’s father’s, his cousin, just turns up.

01:02:14:14 – 01:02:30:21
Robert Wolf
I forget how the circumstances of how they meet, but he’s he’s wealthy, and he helps him open up a private practice, and they’re in their home and, lends the money or whatever. Maybe if ghost money and we don’t really talk about how it’s returned, if at all. But he has to convert. They have to convert back to Judaism.

01:02:30:21 – 01:02:45:13
Robert Wolf
And as soon as they get that news, my dad’s mom’s taking the cross off the wall. And, not that they didn’t like Christians because most of their friends were Christians, no doubt. Because they didn’t always share in with the Jewish people, especially the Orthodox. So, and so they converted back. So it was a big sacrifice for them.

01:02:45:18 – 01:03:02:19
Robert Wolf
I can’t imagine converting to Christianity. I love Christianity, I think it’s great religion and theory. I think, that Christians have had a hard time over the last, you know, thousand, 2000 years in certain cases. The Bible talks about the Spanish Inquisition. We talk about the Crusades. So all of that, both at both ends of it. Right.

01:03:02:19 – 01:03:23:06
Robert Wolf
And also Muslims and Jews as well, too. So, yeah, a lot of sacrifices they had to make, to finally get a life going, finally having my dad, who grows up, not wealthy, but, you know, upper middle, grows up as a spoiled kid, ironically ends up forced labor and gets through that. But, so the 20s were kind of easy on them.

01:03:23:09 – 01:03:37:02
Robert Wolf
But, in between where during, during certain times they had to convert at the either. And then of course, you couldn’t if you didn’t wear your yellow star or a yellow band. In my dad’s case, in the forced labor, you’d be punished or shot for sure. You’ll.

01:03:37:05 – 01:04:00:04
Dan LeFebvre
Well, you might have already answered my my next question on that one, because in sunshine, the next generation is very finds plays the same. He, he plays different characters in each generation. So in the first generation refines, character is ignites, and he’s trying to become a judge. And then the next generation, once the child grows up, they have a younger, you know, different actor playing the younger version, and he grows up.

01:04:00:04 – 01:04:18:27
Dan LeFebvre
And it’s also a great find, you know? But this time he’s Adam Shaw. And in Adam’s timeline, this is during World War two, and he has to convert. He converts to Roman Catholicism because Jews aren’t allowed to join the fencing club, which is what he wants to do. But then in the movie, obviously that doesn’t work. They find out about his Jewish ancestry.

01:04:18:27 – 01:04:31:29
Dan LeFebvre
And so you can’t just convert. It doesn’t doesn’t really work. So would it be with the movie’s concept there be correct that switching religions wouldn’t work as far as the brutality of the Nazis to escape that?

01:04:32:02 – 01:04:51:13
Robert Wolf
Probably not. I mean, I don’t even know how people know who’s Jewish and who is. And I mean, I have no idea what’s happened once the traumas, on the door. I mean, I, you know, I don’t know how they, how they could masterfully and systematically find them all and exterminate them. But, you bring up a good point, because my dad, my dad’s father, was Jewish.

01:04:51:13 – 01:05:13:02
Robert Wolf
He lost a government job as a dentist. They he had to be, first of all, let them do part time. And then they laid him off and they said, you know, no pension, no benefits. And then ultimately laid off. We talked about the sign. No Jews or dogs. That was out there in Hungary, too. So you weren’t allowed to fencing, you know, certain, bars, restaurants, places of worship, places of business.

01:05:13:02 – 01:05:27:14
Robert Wolf
So Jews weren’t allowed to go to. So and that same sign that we, we talk about in, life was beautiful and, also my dad was not allowed to be on the swim team because he was Jewish. And, my dad loved to swim. I was a pretty good swimmer in high school. I guess I got that from my dad.

01:05:27:14 – 01:05:44:23
Robert Wolf
I swam for four years, and, he did breaststroke, me butterfly and freestyle. But anyway, he had he was kicked off the swim team because he was Jewish. So, yeah, ramifications were there. And, very sad. And it’s too bad because his coach liked him and and his friends like them. And they were very sad for him, but there was nothing they could do,

01:05:44:25 – 01:06:02:03
Dan LeFebvre
Those sort of things. Again, it’s hard to wrap my head around because. So what does that have to do with swimming? Like it? Like you’re swimming in a pool in water. I mean, you’re competing in not to not to take away from how serious it can be for competitions and stuff, but it’s it’s still a sport and it’s similar.

01:06:02:03 – 01:06:21:02
Dan LeFebvre
We see the similar sort of thing in, in the movie with sunshine, except it’s fencing. He’s, you know, he’s fencing. He’s like, that’s part of the reason why he ends up he converts is because he’s like, this doesn’t really it doesn’t affect my how good I am at fencing and with my practicing. And I imagine a similar thing for, for swimming like it does, it doesn’t affect that.

01:06:21:02 – 01:06:29:17
Dan LeFebvre
And so it’s, it’s, it goes back to that concept of what as we’re talking about, it, there’s so much more that, you know, it’s just it’s hard to wrap your head around.

01:06:29:18 – 01:06:48:00
Robert Wolf
And so it’s awful now, you know, ironically, the Olympics came up in a recent podcast too, and y can every day be like the Olympics? Yeah. Why can’t we do peace negotiations and tear off negotiations in the hot tub, or over find a nice table with a tablecloth and, you know, nice silverware? The the Olympics, exemplifies that.

01:06:48:00 – 01:07:06:14
Robert Wolf
It’s the one time where for the 2 or 3 weeks that the all these countries get together, they compete, they put all the bibs, all the politics, all the disagreements off you know, back. They leave it on the field or behind them and they compete. And it’s great sportsmanship. And why can’t, why can’t our politicians, why can’t our leaders, do that?

01:07:06:14 – 01:07:24:14
Robert Wolf
I mean, it’s such a such a great lesson. So I love the Olympics, not only because I love sports, but also just that concept of, worldwide, a worldwide peace and, the amicable feeling that you got, and I just love it. I mean, third place, person congratulating the first on the gold medal winner, that kind of thing.

01:07:24:17 – 01:07:44:16
Robert Wolf
Arm in arm in arm, holding our flags. Just the fact, you know, we’re talking about kneeling and and, during, it’s not a big thing lightly, thank God. But kneeling or not respecting the national anthem, my mom and dad would spit in those people. They would be. How dare you? You know, we we were barely allowed to practice what we want in a free country.

01:07:44:16 – 01:08:04:15
Robert Wolf
How dare you do that in this country? And they would, think. I mean, they got to their dad, but they. I got the narrative experience, the the the people kneeling and and not respecting the flag, multi-millionaires, people that are privileged, privileged enough and talented enough, and marketable enough to to be in sports and make lots of money, be very popular.

01:08:04:15 – 01:08:24:06
Robert Wolf
And when they do that, it’s it just doesn’t hurt the snarling. And so those kind of things, that’s what we’re battling here. You know, we got to respect our country and our freedoms, and our luck and realize that what happened to my dad could happen to any one of us. Could be a bad neighbor. Bad local government, federal government, foreign government, natural disaster, bad business deal.

01:08:24:06 – 01:08:39:07
Robert Wolf
Whatever it is could happen to us where we’re on the run not knowing where your next meal is. So not only are we going to sleep, not not knowing if you’re going to get a job or where you will, and you still you’re still, you don’t know. You can’t meet people. You can’t be around people that that spot you and say, oh, there’s a Jew.

01:08:39:07 – 01:08:47:24
Robert Wolf
There’s, Because you hear that. So there’s we talk about the light at the end of the tunnel. Even during escapes, there was no such thing.

01:08:47:27 – 01:09:11:23
Dan LeFebvre
If we go back to sunshine, the last generation in that movie is Adam, son Ivan. And he survives World War two. But then he joins the communists because they seem to be the liberators of the brutality of the Nazis had inflicted in Hungary. But then, as the Hungarian Revolution breaks out in 1956, in the movie we see Ivan, he realizes the communists are brutal and corrupt also.

01:09:12:00 – 01:09:38:14
Dan LeFebvre
And then at the very end of that movie, Ivan learns from an old letter from his great grandfather, who was at the very beginning of the movie. It’s it’s a long movie. But he finds out that in this letter, it’s the goal is not to be accepted by others. And in this letter, as you reads it, Ivan then has the inspiration to change his name from shores back to sunshine to embrace his Jewish ancestry.

01:09:38:16 – 01:09:58:14
Dan LeFebvre
And like a lot of the movie characters that we’ve talked about today, the Shine is high. Family from the movie sunshine are fictional. They’re not real. But of course, the unimaginable hardships that they faced in the movie were real events that generations of of your family faced as well. So just like Ivan took lessons from his family’s past at the end of the movie and build a better life for himself.

01:09:58:14 – 01:10:09:04
Dan LeFebvre
As we kind of start to wrap up our discussion today, if you took a look at your family’s history, what’s one lesson that you’ve learned that people today can apply to create a better future?

01:10:09:06 – 01:10:26:04
Robert Wolf
I have to see that movie sunshine. It sounds. I mean, it sounds like they stole my stole my own story. Now, would you remind me? Because I do want to, but yeah, my, my mom’s uncle, Zoltan was she. He converted. He was a communist because he wanted to. He wanted to survive. And, my mom probably hated it, but he was.

01:10:26:04 – 01:10:43:18
Robert Wolf
It helped him. He was a he was a monkey in the government and in the economic the economic plan after World War two. And, I read some of the notes, those turned up and I it was really and I don’t mean to get off the subject, but it was really poignant and depressing actually saying, well, what what do we do with our, our Jews?

01:10:43:25 – 01:11:03:10
Robert Wolf
And they are mostly farms and factories. I’m not going to talk about military. I’m talking about the civilian Jews because they couldn’t work. They couldn’t be educated. Finally, they let my dad get into medical school, 10%, quota, which is 10% quota, which is amazing that he even got in. But, so but he was a communist, so he, you know, resonates really, really well with whatever.

01:11:03:10 – 01:11:23:24
Robert Wolf
My mom and dad wouldn’t buy into it as we already mentioned, that, like I said, this country is amazing. Accountability is an important. It’s an important message. Don’t point at people. It just, you know, after 911, we had Islamophobia. After the coronavirus epidemic. We had the Asian eight. Now tober seventh. That’s the Jewish people.

01:11:23:24 – 01:11:39:12
Robert Wolf
Well, what do I have to do with Gaza? And October 7th, I support Israel, I support peace, and, that that that unnecessary. You know, you’re wasting your time, with these protests, these kids in Colombia, you don’t know how good you have it. You know, I, I think people would tell the end of Harvard or Columbia or privilege.

01:11:39:12 – 01:12:03:24
Robert Wolf
They would be. And, people that are doing this and and protesting and calling for the death of Israel and America, it’s just there’s no room for it. Not for me, not for you, and not in this country. And so I identify with the peaceful people, try to get a handle around, at least. Finally, they’re curtailing funding for universities everywhere I could in there, I’d be showing them and and suing them and suing them and and doing more talks in the area.

01:12:03:24 – 01:12:20:28
Robert Wolf
I mean, believe me, that’s all I’m doing anyway, but we need to, appreciate what we have. Accountability. And if you’re bored with what you have, you got if you’re complaining, change vectors. If you don’t like your job, change jobs, work part time, write a book. Everybody’s got a story. Write a poem, write an opera. Go to the library.

01:12:20:28 – 01:12:37:28
Robert Wolf
Go to the museum. Spend more time with your family. Give back to the community. It’s not just about food, shelter, clothing. Unlike for my mom and dad and, all the victims, it’s all food, shelter and clothing. But for now, for us, I put a little more into your life, put a more pot, and, love your neighbor, you know, and I don’t I don’t mean to be corny.

01:12:37:28 – 01:12:57:02
Robert Wolf
Bring a neighbor some macaroons or whatever. Invite them for the Seder. Just get to know them better and embrace them. And things. And things. Well, it all starts. Leadership starts from within. You know, you’re not going to be a leader if you’re not a good person. If you’re not. And I don’t mean no Hitler leader because he just led by charisma and, and, all his, his garbage is, propaganda.

01:12:57:04 – 01:13:14:01
Robert Wolf
But, you can lead by example, and it’s never too late to do the right thing. There’s no substitute for experience. I got a lot of, you know, the trend is your friend, you can learn something from every case, as we say in radiology. But as now, I’ve been on both sides of the needle. You can learn something from every person you know.

01:13:14:01 – 01:13:30:13
Robert Wolf
You can learn from every situation. And don’t forget that, don’t be that. That dead shark swim in the water. Just keep on moving. And if you don’t like what you’re doing and don’t don’t watch and complain, do something else. Life is short here. It’s our only commodity. It’s. You know, time is. Our time is our only commodity.

01:13:30:13 – 01:13:41:24
Robert Wolf
It’s not gold or silver stocks, real estate. It’s time. So use it. Use it wisely. Like my dad used to say. Enjoy every moment. And now I understand why.

01:13:41:26 – 01:14:02:10
Dan LeFebvre
Yeah, I love that I love that, and that’s one thing as we’ve talked about you just looking back to some of the movies we talked about, the concept that I get is a lot of the things that led to like the atrocities Auschwitz that we talked about. It didn’t jump right to that. It was there were steps that they got there.

01:14:02:13 – 01:14:26:01
Dan LeFebvre
And although we’ve we talked mostly about historical events that took place around World War Two today, a lot of people have compared the current climate here in the United States as I’m recording this, similar to the rise of fascism that resulted in Nazi Germany. And I’m just curious, from your perspective, do you think there’s any truth to those comparisons, or is that kind of overblown just, extremism?

01:14:26:03 – 01:14:44:26
Robert Wolf
That’s such a great question. It’s hard to know. I hope not. That’s why there’s people like me trying to prevent that from happening. Call Congress, call you local government. What are you guys doing about anti-Semitism? I’m still doing it. I hate getting ghosted. That’s a big part of it being rejected. I don’t mind getting rejected like people that are apathetic, but too much apathy is going to be the danger to us.

01:14:44:26 – 01:15:04:25
Robert Wolf
And if the Jewish population doesn’t survive, you know, the LGBTQ, the criticize the Jewish and African-Americans, if you guys are next and and those those that glorify Hitler, you guys were next. You just don’t even realize it. So, now in some ways, yeah, in some countries worse than here. But even in America, in World War two, there was the rise of anti-Semitism.

01:15:04:25 – 01:15:23:16
Robert Wolf
And, fortunately not fascism. But until the guns are pointed at me, I feel relief. As long as the government and the local police are protecting us, then I feel safe. Whatever. If it starts to turn. And we talked about the your armored trucks and tanks going down the streets with the flags. If it ever comes to that, then I’d say, well, no, we’re doomed.

01:15:23:16 – 01:15:45:23
Robert Wolf
But, at least for the short term. But, hopefully that never happens. I can’t see that happening. But you never know. I mean, Australia and Canada, Europe, it’s still going on. So it’s up to the government, the people that are supposed to protect others. As Reagan said, that’s what government’s job is not to and not to, to to take from others or its or to use the people.

01:15:45:23 – 01:15:52:00
Robert Wolf
It’s, it’s I’m paraphrasing, but a government’s job is to protect us. Jewish. Christian doesn’t matter. Muslim.

01:15:52:03 – 01:15:58:26
Dan LeFebvre
We’re all human. We’re all. We’re all. What is it? The JFK quotes, we all share this planet together or something. Something along.

01:15:58:26 – 01:16:17:23
Robert Wolf
Those lines. Exactly. No. It’s true, it’s true. And we’re we’re getting beyond that. Why are the Soviets and the Americans get along in space stations and the moon or whatever, but they can’t get along and Mother Earth, right? I mean, so that’s, it’s another thing like the Olympics. Yeah. It doesn’t even make sense to me. And probably Antarctica and Greenland and everybody is going to set up whatever.

01:16:17:25 – 01:16:33:08
Robert Wolf
And that works for me. You know, it’s so how about annexing Canada? What about that kind of concept? I, you know, people are thinking out of the box lately and maybe I like it, maybe I don’t, but it’s worth a look because things have to change. Canada needs a security alternative to the US. On and on and on.

01:16:33:13 – 01:16:55:13
Robert Wolf
And maybe it’s good economically too, unless it’s come up. And I don’t know that it would be so complicated. And I know our resistance. The natives would be, Mexico. Maybe not so much, but that would be scary for me because I think it’s a it’s got it’s violent areas and etc.. But interestingly, a Jewish woman is the new president of Mexico, so and a Jewish lady is, is the new mayor of Beverly Hills.

01:16:55:13 – 01:17:15:18
Robert Wolf
So, that gives me hope. I think that’s great. I mean, I love California, and if it weren’t so expensive, I maybe I would live there instead of Florida. But, with who knows? And it’s one of the liberal for me, too. But, you know, it’s a great state and, many, many people. So it’s good to see that some people that are in leadership positions are going to be on the side of peace, not just because they’re Jewish.

01:17:15:18 – 01:17:29:03
Robert Wolf
That’s the side of peace. So they get it. They care. That’s another lesson. It’s good to care. It’s important to care if you, you’re doomed if you don’t. So whatever is your own life or the life of others? It’s important.

01:17:29:05 – 01:17:44:00
Dan LeFebvre
Well, thank you so much for coming on the show to chat about all these various movies. I know we’ve mentioned your book called Not a Real Enemy The True Story of the Hungarian Jewish Man’s Fight for freedom. We’ve mentioned a few times throughout our discussion today, but there’s so many things in the book that we didn’t even get a chance to talk about.

01:17:44:00 – 01:18:01:06
Dan LeFebvre
I’m going to add a link to it in the show notes, so anyone watching or listening to this right now can pick up their own copy. As I was reading your book, it really read like a movie and I can’t wait until it is turned into one. And since all movies have teasers and trailers before I let you go, can you share a teaser of your book for everyone watching this?

01:18:01:06 – 01:18:03:06
Dan LeFebvre
Now?

01:18:03:09 – 01:18:23:14
Robert Wolf
Wow. Yeah, yeah, from your mouth to God’s ears. Because, we we’ve been trying to clear some producers. Like I mentioned earlier, it’s a long shot, but a teaser. A man who escapes four times, I can’t imagine one escape. I mean, I’ve been reading books, guys escaping, and they’re not even Jewish. They’re. They’re prisoners of war from Poland or whatever, escaping from thousands of miles away.

01:18:23:16 – 01:18:40:12
Robert Wolf
And that’s like a one big, huge escape. But for escapes, 20 miracles in this book, like you as you know it. Or the way my dad got into medical school, cloak and dagger stories, arguing with armors and soldiers. That’s a scene I’d like to see, and winning the argument, but bluffing his way through it.

01:18:40:15 – 01:19:03:19
Robert Wolf
Of course, his first and last escape. But I think all of them would need to be included. Split second timing. The luck of God. What else? I mean, the fact that my dad was spoiled, but he was also beaten as a kid. It’s another interesting, interesting tidbit. Tidbit? So many, the way the table set, the way the way that you went from, being an upper middle says to starving and how life could change on a dime.

01:19:03:21 – 01:19:24:18
Robert Wolf
So many messages. Resilience, determination, hope, integrity, and ultimately redemption. So it’s it’s loaded. It’s packed with it’s history. It’s an adventure. It’s a biography. And, trials and tribulations. My dad and family and, must read and hopefully, more and more people read it. This is all I do is my charge is fighting anti-Semitism. You help me with that.

01:19:24:18 – 01:19:48:24
Robert Wolf
10% of my, I’m on socials across the board, so please, finally, Robert J. Wolfe, MD, or Google not relented me 10% of my proceeds henceforth and even when I’m gone and my trust are going to the Holocaust Museum in DC. So not only I’m educating in my own little corner, but I’m also contributing. And people that buy the book are contributing to education through the, to the mothership, as I call it, the U.S. Holocaust Museum in DC.

01:19:48:27 – 01:20:06:02
Robert Wolf
I’ve been fortunate enough to be there twice or two to the book signings. I could do that every day, educating kids and families about what’s going on now and then, genocide, etc.. So, it’s a must read. And, I hope that you do enjoy it and reach out to me. I do podcasts and and presentations programs.

01:20:06:02 – 01:20:09:03
Robert Wolf
Please help me fight antisemitism. Can’t do it alone.

01:20:09:05 – 01:20:16:27
Dan LeFebvre
I love education is is the key. Thank you so much for everything you do for educating. Thank you for for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.

01:20:17:00 – 01:20:24:22
Robert Wolf
Pleasure. I learned a lot today to.

Dan LeFebvre  01:52

Before we learn more about your film career, everyone watching just heard your last name in the introduction. I’m sure you get this all the time. Your brother is Sean Patrick Flanery, who I will always remember as Conor McManus from the cult classic film The Boondock Saints. So let’s start by getting that question out of the way. What’s it like having a famous actor for a brother?

Robyn Flanery  02:12

Um, interesting, and we’re, I don’t think of him as famous because we’re barely two years apart, so we kind of grew up really tight and so on. People are like, Oh my god, your brother. I’m just like.

Dan LeFebvre  02:28

He’s just your brother.

Robyn Flanery  02:31

Yeah! But I live in New Orleans right now, and there’s a bar here called The Boondock Saint where they play his movie on loop. And yeah. So a lot of people do ask that question to me on the regular, and he’s, he’s just a regular dude who’s, you know, got kids, and is a really nice guy. I mean, he does do the Comic Con circuit for that movie still, so he’s really active in that, and I know that he’s written and produced and directed a few things, so it looks like he’s but he spends a lot of time with his kids, doing athletics. Mostly, that’s really what his life is

Dan LeFebvre  03:17

We’re going to talk mostly about your career, but I had to ask that up front.

Robyn Flanery  03:25

No worries at all.

Dan LeFebvre  03:27

Well, you you started to go down the acting road back with student bodies. Was a horror comedy in 1981 but what made you decide to work behind the camera instead of front of it?

Robyn Flanery  03:36

Well, the funny story about student bodies is this, I was in a very exclusive private school in high school, and a girlfriend of mine, it was for actors, models and athletes and things like that. And I wasn’t any of those. I was just a science person. But she said, Hey, can you drag me to an audition after school? And I said, Okay, what’s it for? And she’s like, I don’t know. And she showed me the sides, which I didn’t even know what sides were at that time. I mean, no acting experience at all. I She goes, come in with me. So I’m sitting in this row of chairs. There’s literally hundreds of people there, and this dude walks out of the room, and he walks up and down and he points at me. I go, I’m not here to audition. He goes, you are now. Do you know how to scream? And I’m like, No, dude, I I promise. I’m sure I didn’t say dude, because I was 17, but I was like, no, no, no, I don’t want to do this. And and my friend says you should go try. And then I went in, and they’re like, You got the part. And then that girlfriend, I think he still hates me this day, because that was kind of her dream, but it wasn’t mine, so I wanted to learn the science behind film always, but I’ve had offers to be in front of the camera a lot more than behind, but I don’t. I struggle on camera. I struggle with that. So I chose to do what I felt was more i. My speed, which is producing and directing. And first I started out making little commercials for people, and then I started making documentaries about things that I thought were really globally important. But that’s kind of how that started. And then Sean moved out to Hollywood after I did that movie, way after I did that movie, because he was in St Thomas at University of St Thomas when he left, and he’s that was the funniest story, because we both worked for our dad at that time. He’s just a semester short of finishing college, and oh, oh, I don’t want to talk about all that, but yeah, he went out there, and then he got, you know, he really wanted to be in front of the camera. I never knew that, because he was in school for pre law. Oh, okay, yeah, I Yeah. So it was a surprise, but he got a big break while he was working at DJI Fridays. Isn’t

Dan LeFebvre  05:54

that kind of the classic story, going to Hollywood work as a weird and then become an actor. That’s

Robyn Flanery  05:58

what happened. And then. So he always had work, you know, sort of rolling since then, and but I also got into it. But I started doing location scouting first, and then, before I got my hands on any really big equipment, and doing that, I was able to move from that. And because that doesn’t pay a lot of money, and it’s not like I’m following the money, but you always sort of want to move up, but at least I do, if I’m going to work at all, if I’m going to work at all, I’m going to work, you know, up a ladder, I hope. But the next way up was to do housing for a list actors. So I got to meet a lot of A listers, and that helped me a lot in getting into documentaries and stuff like that, but also finding them houses when they came to New Orleans to film. So I’ve some of them. I have NDAs that I can’t discuss. Some of them I can. And, you know, very, very interesting field,

Dan LeFebvre  06:59

I’ll say here on the podcast, normally, when I talk about the true story behind historical movies, I’m referring to the based on a true story part the actual history. But I’m super excited to get to change that up with you here, Robin, because now we’ll get to hear some true stories from historical movies that you’ve worked on, like Dallas Buyers Club with Matthew McConaughey and the butler with Forest Whitaker and Oprah Winfrey. What are one or two of your favorite stories from your time working on those movies? Yeah,

Robyn Flanery  07:26

I did a a list actor scouting for houses on multitudes of films. Dallas Buyers Club. I ended up showing a lot of houses to to Matt McConaughey, and he chose a different one from another person. So I wasn’t every day on I wasn’t an everyday person on that, but a lot of my friends worked like solidly on that set for so many weeks. It was a really fun set to work on, and a lot of people really enjoyed it. But that’s one that we all have NDAs that we can’t even discuss where we showed anything. I can tell you Matt McConaughey talked about Halo with my daughter for 30 minutes, and I was like, hurry up. But other than that, I can’t say much about it. Still, I

Dan LeFebvre  08:18

just, I’m just picturing him looking at the house and going, all right, all right, all right, all right. And that’s the 180 pictures. Oh,

Robyn Flanery  08:23

cool. He’s paraded through that. He’s not like that, just a regular person he was. We really nerded out with my daughter about video games for a long time, and she was about to go off to college to become a computer engineer to program video games. So they had a lot in com. They got a lot more talking time than I did, but, um, he’s really, really nice person. So is his wife. They’re really stellar people. I don’t have anything negative to say about them. And he’s really easy to work with, like, super easy. And seems to be, I don’t know if he’s a method actor, but he very well could be from some because it’s been on two occasions whenever, for two different movies when I’ve seen different sides of him. So I think he may be method, but I could be way wrong. I don’t know, but he’s a really nice person. As far as the butler, that was an interesting experience, because I did housing for some of the executive producers and things like that, and learned a lot about the way people want to live as the opposed as opposed to reality. So we did a lot of we did have a lot of 2am calls from people in houses and things like that for simple things, but, but I had to be back and forth on set to pick up checks a lot for that. And everybody was lovely and staying with Django Unchained, same thing that was very interesting, the most interesting feature I’ve ever had any affiliation with ever, just because of the way that they did it and the way that the stars worked. And I also might, since my daughter was doing a she. She was about to go off to college. She was in her senior year, and I got her an internship on that film and art department. And during the filming of that movie, Michael Riva, who was the art director, died, and Paige Buckner took over as the art director, and that’s who my daughter was directly working for, and she also side gig as a nanny for their baby. So just and I house them. So it was, it was, it was real tight. And I remember opening the refrigerator in our department, there’s notes on everything, because everybody, evidently, they had somebody that went around, not

Dan LeFebvre  10:40

to name names, but somebody, yeah.

Robyn Flanery  10:43

It was really fun. Doing all of that is really an interesting psychological study in people, and learning how to deal with people, places and things, and not making any of them mad at the same time. It’s an interesting and almost impossible job, but I tried to give it my best. As you say, the

Dan LeFebvre  11:04

first thing that comes to mind is, you can’t make everybody happy. But it sounds like that’s what you try to do. Yeah, try to

Robyn Flanery  11:11

do that. It’s, it’s, um, it they all have personal assistance so, but when they’re on in the middle of tonight, they don’t, so you’re dealing directly with the stars and the producers, and they don’t know how to do certain things. And, you know, sometimes you have to kick in and help and or just, you know, read a manual. And back then, you know, it wasn’t as easy to Google every single thing or YouTube every single thing and just send them a video, and they wouldn’t have put up with that anyway. You have to really go there and go, no, here’s how you open this. Here’s how this works, and don’t shut this this way, or that will happen. And this, you know, in New Orleans, there’s a lot of mixed craft architecture that is very interesting and old. There’s a lot of history. So it’s not new construction and smart houses everywhere. There, we do have that. But back then, wasn’t so much fat. So there was a lot of I’m sure people would come in and go, it’s beautiful mansion. I don’t have work anything well.

Dan LeFebvre  12:06

And it’s a house like this, not the normal house like it’s, and so it’s, I could see that too, where it’s just, it’s, it’s, it’s new you think of when you get new car, you got to learn where all the different little pieces and all the things are, yeah,

Robyn Flanery  12:15

you’re right. It is a lot like that and and just the interesting personalities and things that people you think everybody knows how to do a certain thing? Nah, no, no, no. Some people have never done things like making beds or coffee, and that’s okay. I don’t do that for a living, but I learned that so I could teach somebody. It’s not that hard, but for the most part, that was just a real pleasant, pleasant experience. The only unpleasant experience I’ve ever had doing any kind of location or cast and crew work is on a reality show that will forever go nameless, call them Voldemort. It was a year of my life that I would never want to put on my resume again. I don’t ever want a job like I get, and never want to deal with

Dan LeFebvre  13:09

that. I guess you got to have the lows sometimes, to appreciate the the better jobs. Yeah,

Robyn Flanery  13:14

yeah, it does. It made me that’s a good point, because that’s exactly what it did. It made me go, oh, I don’t like that, for sure, and I know and because the only thing that really benefit for that are the viewers, writings and the producers, all the other rest of people really don’t. And it’s made me sad as a human to sort of see people exploited that way. I couldn’t deal with it. I have a I have one of these empathetic hearts that makes now I do movies that are only to do good or to call to action, and that’s pretty much it, but I had to find my niche by learning all those things. Just like said, Yeah,

Dan LeFebvre  13:47

well, I know we all understand that. You know, movies are for entertainment, so they’re not going to be entirely accurate, but the flip side of that, we expect documentaries to be factual. And as a filmmaker who’s worked on both historical movies for entertainment, we just talked about some as well as documentaries. Do you take a different approach for these two kinds of movies? And you’re when you take work on them?

Robyn Flanery  14:07

Yeah, there’s two totally different forms of development for both. There’s, you know, there’s research and development for both types. But one of them is strictly creative, and the other is factual. And now sometimes on the feature films you do, if you’re using a living character or public figure, you have to make sure that you’re legally accurate. But on a documentary, I know there are some people that do make documentaries now based on their feelings and what they think a situation is, rather than doing the research that’s unfortunate that that’s happened. I’m trying my best to revive the the method that we learned before of always telling the truth and having sources and facts. That’s why I said I was I started with a scientific background, because I if it’s not on pub men, there’s no paper about it, I’m not sure that’s a real cure. I. I want to know. And I worked in the library one because I finished all of my electives way too soon, and I was in all AP classes. So I worked in the library and I read. People would ask me where the fiction section was, and I would tell them it was the eight hundreds, which is biography. So that’s the kind of All right, go learn something. I’m not a fan of big academia, but I am a fan of the truth, so I try to seek it out and tell it as much as I can. But I think that’s an important part of being a really good filmmaker, and also asking everybody that works with you what their perspective is, so you know where they’re coming from.

Dan LeFebvre  15:36

That’s an interesting point, too. Yeah, that I’ve heard Justine doing this show. You know, you when you talk to historians and stuff, they they’ll point out that, you know, one person’s perspective of the truth is is different than somebody else’s. An example that I always like to give is the battle of Dunkirk. You know, this huge historical battle. But one person’s perspective of that, depending on where they are in that battle, is, can be very different. They can both be valid and so telling those stories from the perspective matters. What perspective you’re telling the story from

Robyn Flanery  16:07

too. Oh, that is. That’s so that is so profound and so perfect, because that’s something that I think a lot of filmmakers could really learn from. If you only tell it from one perspective, your lack, you’re really ripping yourself off. Tell the whole gamut and let the the watcher, the viewer, decide what they think is best from their own value system. Usually the truth will come out, but if you tell it from only one side, that is, for instance, that you see, I guess there are four documentaries on the men in Dez brothers, and also Diddy and also Anna delvey, and there’s a million perspectives. But wouldn’t it be cool if you could see them all in one Yeah, that’s the way I like to make stuff. People got really angry with me when I made broken worlds the island, because a lot of people on the island that sold property thought that I was going to negate them from making sales. Yeah, maybe so, but the truth is going to get told, and I’m going to tell it, and you can’t stop me. Just try. That’s what I always tell people. I’m like, just like Sean. People are like, he’s a black belt. You know, he might be a little dude. Sean and I are about the same exact height and and we’re both tall and skinny, but we’re formidable in different ways. He’s a black belt, and I think I’m kind of that same way, but with my mind, because I will not let something go until I get to the bottom of it. And people know that about me, they’ll they’ll sidetrack. They’ll be like, I don’t need your help. You might want to know something, but then again, I’m just about to do a documentary on a family Hollywood royalty level, like, let’s say it’s not John Wayne, but of that ilk, their whole family and all of their generations now want to tell all their trauma. So we’ll see. Will I want to see what their perspective is from a victim and from an attacker and from just as a human being, what they think of these stories as When, when, when they write their out rings, somebody’s going to tell them that read them their outline back so they can hear it from a different perspective, so they can go, oh, wow, how does that land? You don’t want to just start talking on a live stream and and spew a bunch of stuff with no background. So I tend to have my subjects talk about it from their perspective. And then I get all of them together, and then I can sort of go, oh, a ball just formed in the air. Let’s it’s the earth. And now we have a project, but we have it from all perspectives at that point, and then we can tell it from to make some reasonable assumptions and truths, possibly, well,

Dan LeFebvre  18:59

you mentioned briefly broken worlds. And I want to ask about the broken worlds the island and Rita’s Island. Both of the documentaries tell stories of the aftermath of Hurricane Maria, the category five hurricane that hit Puerto Rico in September of 2017 How did you get involved in those projects?

Robyn Flanery  19:13

Well, I lived there for I had a my vacation house was on that island, and I just sold it in April of 2022 and I lived there for a long time without knowing that, because even in the disclosure of real estate, the realtor did not let us know that this was the island that had been bombed by the Navy for over 60 years, and the ground Water might be environmentally challenged. So I took it upon myself after finding that out from meeting a person who was an Army UXO tech who worked on the range, told me the whole story, and said, yeah, they keep trying to cover it up for everybody buying new stuff here. And I went, huh? Then I noticed. Al Jazeera went and did a an expose on that exact realtor by saying, I’d like to talk to you about your luxury properties on this now, I don’t go do stuff like that. I’m going to tell them I don’t know what I’m going to do with this footage. I want to interview you. I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t have just turned it on someone like that. But people do need to know, but they need to know that there’s also a lot of good being done about it. You know, at the same time, there’s a cleanup being done. It’s a major Superfund site. It turns out that it you do have to disclose that it’s a super fun site on a real estate disclosure. So that’s a good thing that people know now when they move there, there’s also not a hospital there, and you could step on depleted uranium, and they’re still still radioactive. You know, you can guide your counter around there and find a lot of stuff. So when I find out things like that, I want to get the whole story. So I did in the course of that, I met are Rita Maldonado, who has a book out called the zen of dancing in the rain, whichever, it’s an Amazon bestseller, and I highly recommend everybody read it. She is, was an Army veteran who was shot in Afghanistan and all, and was on a reality show after that, did a lot of promotion for herself, but went through a serious, serious evolution in her life of losing capacity to walk, and had to reteach herself and everything. And she’s won a Purple Heart, which is now in the Smithsonian, you know. So there’s lots of cool things that she’s doing from that, and that spun off from that. So I wanted to make a special documentary about her that covered why she was even in it, because she wasn’t a native or a Taino Indian, Native of the island of bieke Vieques, but vieque is the way the islanders say it, and they pronounce it that way, and they’re Taino Indians, indigenous people, and they have specific religions and all that. So I wanted to do a part two to that, to let them know about the culture and what they really respect, because it’s an island off of it’s seven miles off the southeast coast of the island of Puerto Rico, so it’s like its own little country. Very, very interesting. There’s usually never more than 10,000 people on that island, even in the highest of seasons, and there’s not a hospital. So it’s, yeah, people who have healthcare issues. It’s, it’s a serious issue. That’s why I just finished making alongside Carrie Mitchum, who’s Robert Mitchum granddaughter, she and I produced and made a show called profit over people. That’s the content is all out on YouTube, but we’re going to sell the content to a streamer, to do a documentary like the 10 Melendez brothers, or whatever you know, that they want to put out there. I don’t know, but that’s not the documentary about their family. That’s a separate project in itself. But profit over people is based on the United States healthcare system and how broken it is with and it’s got stories from people of from all walks of life to verify this, and it’s almost medieval how cruel some of the things are that we found out during the the making of that it took us two years to make it

Dan LeFebvre  23:12

so just to make sure I’m understanding, the island vis is where they dropped bombs for like, 60 years, And there’s also not a hospital on the island for this radioactive I mean, that just seems crazy.

Robyn Flanery  23:28

Oh my god, let’s do a TV show, a reality TV show, on this island, and make it about cheap places to live in the Caribbean and sell a bunch of property. And that that happened. I bought one, and then I went down there and I found all that stuff out. Now, you would think, that’s really stupid, Robin. Why didn’t you do the research on I was, I was that blue water, it can pin it’s, I mean,

Dan LeFebvre  23:57

just seeing the footage in the documentary too. I mean, there are some beautiful visuals. I mean, it’s a beautiful location, unbelievable.

Robyn Flanery  24:03

And I didn’t use, and neither did any editor use any colorization on that. It’s natural. That’s the way it really is. So you walk out every day and you’re like, oh my god, this is so beautiful. This, oh my god. And then you just it affects your mind, and you get Island time, and then you find things out. And you then finally, your mind back after the spell is all from the beauty, and you want to find out what’s in the dirt. And that’s what led me to that, and some other people were talking about it on the island. And then we made the movie after the hurricane, really, I went back to the I went down to the island that visit after, directly after the hurricane, just to make tourism promos for my friends who own businesses that they I thought they had lost. Just as a help, I was going to donate my time just to make promos. But I got there and a lady that I met who worked on the range sat me down and told me the story. She goes, and then the town doctor comes to me and says, Robin, you’re here that you got a whole crew here. You’re not making promos. This is what we’re doing. And I’m like, tell me, what the hell is going on? She started telling me and about all of the cases of the diseases. And so then we started talking to historians and scientists and everybody, and it got bigger than we thought. And after many years of reformatting and making it, we sent it to film festival, 101, of awards, way more than I thought. And then we did spin off Rita’s Island, and then people just kept hiring us to do different things. I

Dan LeFebvre  25:35

mean, it sounds like people were just itching to tell their story. And yeah, I mean,

Robyn Flanery  25:40

but then they wanted to hate me after I told

Dan LeFebvre  25:44

well, yeah, I guess, I guess that’s how it goes. Yeah.

Robyn Flanery  25:46

I mean, my agent at the time said, Robin, haters are fans. I’m like, I don’t like this, this. I’m not I like this. And he’s like, just calm down. It’ll die down. And it did, but boy, it was rough the two years that it was on Amazon, ever United States people to see I’m I’ve never received that level of hatred for anything I’ve ever done from the most entitled people on Earth. Disgusting is

Dan LeFebvre  26:18

this broken worlds, arenas, Island are kind of both together.

Robyn Flanery  26:21

Worlds, broken world. Island redesign was just a love fest. Okay? I was gonna say

Dan LeFebvre  26:25

because, I mean, her story, since it follows more just her instead of it is kind of her perspective, but her story to me as I was, I mean, it just, it’s, it’s like the topic of a movie. I mean, she’s in the army, she on a reality TV show, and then she ate a slug or something. And then, like, I got a 50% chance of not waking up. And then she goes, like, from running 50 miles before the TV show, being paralyzed, having to relearn how to walk. And then finally, sets down there on the island in March of 2017 and then hurricane Maria hits, destroys the home. Her husband passes away while she’s five months like it just it seems like a movie plot line.

Robyn Flanery  27:06

I know it is, and I’m sure that, I’m sure the right producer will end up making that. If it’s not me, I don’t know if it’ll be me. And Arita are pretty, you know, type, we still talk, you know, on the internet a lot, and I love her children so much. The first time I interviewed her, Alex was there, her husband was there, and she was pregnant, so, you know, I met, was able to meet him. And this is a really small community, so everybody’s really knows everybody. It is the story for a movie, and she’s written a book, like I said, Zen, the zen of dancing in the rain. And it’s a beautiful story. Everybody should really read it. And she’s working on another book now. She also is so healthy that she’s able to teach dance every day. I mean, well, I think she’s gotten down to twice a week or three times a week now, but yeah,

Dan LeFebvre  27:56

wow, wow. Yeah, I can’t wait to hopefully that becomes a movie to shine more light on her story too. I

Robyn Flanery  28:03

hope so it should. It’s a beautiful story. The locations are absolutely fabulous. But I do think that now that I have this type of experience, it should be a body who makes it, a Boricua, a person of that that culture, a filmmaker who lived there on that land, that’s who deserves to make it. I wouldn’t mind being a contributing producer or being the director if they wanted to hire me, but I do think that that story should be told by them. Well,

Dan LeFebvre  28:32

if we shift back to movies for entertainment purposes, a lot of people see, you know, the list of names, and there’s just this whole screen, you know, black, and then just huge list of of white text of all the different people. And it’s kind of hard to wrap your head around how many decisions are made across the entire production that can impact in particular for my listeners, you know, the historical accuracy of movies. I like to use Titanic as an example, because, you know, the tip of the iceberg above the water, but most of it’s underneath. Nobody really sees. So over the course of your career, what sort of things have you seen that have impacted the historical accuracy of a movie? For those of us that are just watching it, might not even think about gosh,

Robyn Flanery  29:15

I would think the thing that comes to mind also is Titanic and the amount of scientific experimentation and historical facts that James Cameron went out and got, I mean, there’s so much of that that changed what people thought about the way that movie was made. And I went into like, making broken worlds the same way I wanted to find people who were for it and who were against it and why, what their reasons were. And in the final cut, I think one of the biggest monologs was cut out and and I would like to put that in our and so I think the the way you make decisions can really, really change the inflection and tone of a film in such drastic ways that you it, and the way you cut. At it. The editor has amazing control. Oh, if you allow them to, and a director and an editor and producer, an EP should work like it should be a triad to get if you if you’re all in the same headspace, that’s perfect. If you’re not, it’s kind of a disaster. So yeah,

Dan LeFebvre  30:18

think we’ve seen those movies too, yeah,

Robyn Flanery  30:22

but I do think a lot of things, like there were so many different perspectives of Docu movies, on documentaries, on a 911 for instance, that had drastically different perspectives. J6 same thing. So I think it comes from the mind of the storyteller anymore, whereas it should go back to the history and accuracy of a panel. And I think that the panels that we all use as test data for different movies, different scenes and movies even it can go down to like, does this scene work? You know? Well, let’s get a panel and see what they think. You get 12 different or 25 different opinions, and that can help you change things. That’s when pickups come in and you gotta spend that extra budget that you better plan for. So it’s a an integral part of it. But if you also have an auteur, it doesn’t play a part in anything, because they’re going to tell the story the way they want to, and it’s all written up beforehand in pre and you just show up, and that’s what you do.

Dan LeFebvre  31:27

Not as much of that design by committee. It sounds like with the focus groups and things,

Robyn Flanery  31:32

if you’re if you’re an episodic director for a series that’s all done for you, you don’t really have a lot of choices like that. It’s more just, I don’t like that finally

Dan LeFebvre  31:41

work. Yeah, creative

Robyn Flanery  31:45

to me, I would like, think of it as, like, let’s say, if you’re a cardiologist or an ER doc, an ER doc, you’re like, doing a shift, right? You see all kinds of stuff. But if you’re a cardiologist, you’re just seeing a bunch of parts, and you get to know those patients. So it’s like, you know your waiter is on his shift, your ER doctor is on his shift, but the manager of the restaurant cares what you think, and the doctor who’s going to look at your heart is going to need to know you and all of the aspects of your life. I think that has a lot to do with movie making. How much you want to tear it apart depends on, unfortunately, these days, it depends on how much money you

Dan LeFebvre  32:19

have. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s true. I guess Money Talks, as they say sometimes,

Robyn Flanery  32:24

in my little field, that now I have a little niche little I consider it a niche field of empathetic, call to action, journalism, documentary. And in that field you do have a lot more people that go, Wait a minute. I wonder what these people’s we’re sitting here doing this right now. We don’t know what they think. We don’t know what they think. Why don’t we ask them? It’s as simple as that, because you when you’re doing a really good documentary, sometimes you’re out shooting a scene and you’re like, there’s all these people around wonder what they think we’re doing. Let’s ask them. That’s who I am. I’m just so inquisitive I think I’ll die asking a question, and are probably the wrong kind of question. I’ve been told by so many scientists because I’ve made a scientific documentary recently, and scientists would tell me, You cannot ask me about my intellectual property. You’re ruining me. Oh, my God. I’m like, What in the hell are you talking about? You have taught me this whole class. So clearly this information is out there. I’m just asking you to elaborate on the subject matter at hand. Some people do not want to do that, so it just depends on subject material, I think, and who the person is. Everything is so different. We call it the film Apocalypse right now because we don’t know what’s happening. Everything’s changing to streamers, independent journalism is happening. It’s just not the hierarchy that was so a lot of people think of it as we’re doomed, and then the other half of the people think, wow, I finally get my shot playing films level so you see what you were talking about. They’re two totally different perspectives.

Dan LeFebvre  33:59

Well, that leads right into my next question, because earlier I mentioned you’re acting in 1981 and you’re still in the business, so I’m sure you’ve seen a lot of Hollywood history over the course of your career. What are some of the key ways that you’ve seen the feature film industry change over the course of your career? I hate

Robyn Flanery  34:15

that they sold out to loud audio mix in.

Dan LeFebvre  34:19

Gotta make the theater rumble.

Robyn Flanery  34:23

I don’t like that. And I don’t like that. They make prequel sequels, everything to nonsensical, ad nauseam. I don’t like that, and that’s for money. But then again, I think we’re turning a little corner, which I just mentioned about. Uh, everybody’s has a level, level playing field. A lot of people can produce their own films and try to sell them, or put the content out on a public streamer that they use, and somehow come along, what they’re doing right now is a lot of people can glean from this little tidbit, which I’ll throw out there, which I. Probably shouldn’t. People always tell me, you give out ideas so freely structure map. But this is the truth. If you put out your content, it’s decent content. There’s Netflix scrapers. There’s those your internet scrapers that go and scrape for content, and whatever’s getting the highest numbers, they’ll call to buy. So why not make your own stuff and put it out there? That’s what I was talking about. Profit over people, all the contents out there, whenever we mix it correctly and I list it to people that I might know at Netflix or wherever go. You might want to take a look or scrape my site. They might have already done it and said, I don’t like it. F that. That’s fine, too. But you know, people love and hate you as you go through life, and if you don’t get used to that, you’re not doing well as a human. Gotta get used to all of the stuff. Yeah,

Dan LeFebvre  35:44

yeah. It makes sense. Well, you talking about the way things have changed. What’s some advice that you would give for the next generation of aspiring filmmakers? Go for

Robyn Flanery  35:55

it and do not listen to people who tell you, Oh, it cannot be done that way. Bs, because people told me that a lot, and they’re like, Oh, pretty little girl. Let me tell you how to do stuff. Don’t listen to that ever in your life, sweetheart, go out and do it you can. And whether it flops or whether it makes you a billionaire, do it from your heart and you’ll never be a failure.

Dan LeFebvre  36:21

Makes sense. I mean, and I love the telling the story, but not being afraid to go out there and ask those questions, because, you know, there will be people that push back on even the questions that you’re asking too.

Robyn Flanery  36:33

Yeah, some people don’t like to answer questions, and some people do you, but most people want to talk about themselves. So to an aspiring documentarian, I would say, and this might sound manipulative, but go read the 48 Laws of Power. Robert Green has some things in there. It’s not all satirical. Just do it. Utilize at rule number one all the time. Never outshine the master. Just don’t you might be 10 times smarter than the Master. Don’t say it, don’t act like it, and don’t pontificate on anything. Just take the notes internally and use them for what you need later. That’s Val that’s a very valuable lesson that I think a lot of kids should learn right now. Don’t outshine the master until it’s your turn to do that, and then take what you learn from them and use it. And I’ve always done that. There’s a lot of people who will love to talk about themselves, and this is a little bit of manipulation, like I said. But if you want to ask questions to somebody who doesn’t like to answer questions, start talking to them about themselves, then they open up. And it’s a it’s a really good way to make friendships too out of people that you ordinarily would have been an adversary with, you know, I don’t have, I don’t think I have very many enemies anymore, but who knows next project I might have a billion. I feel

Dan LeFebvre  37:50

like that’s something that has been lost. Just just talking to people and just, you know, getting on, figuring out where that that page is, that you can have a common thing, like you said, a lot of people like to talk about themselves, so just do start there, yeah, yeah,

Robyn Flanery  38:05

they do. And they like to talk about successful projects that they’ve done. And any like, I like to tell I like to ask filmmaker, like, one of my mentors, that I took a really small mentorship class with Jeff arch. He wrote Sleepless in Seattle. He told me, he gave me the best advice. He’s like, take out your anger in writing. And boy, that works. It really helps. When you’re angry, you can become use that creative energy to write out a scene and you it’s amazing how it can cure you from you don’t punch a hole in the wall, you don’t do anything crazy. You just write it down, and it affects what you’re working on right now, you know, and finish what you start. Don’t have 25 projects ever open everywhere, because, believe me, none of them will work. I’m saying this from experience. No, it doesn’t work. Three. Do three at a time. That’s okay, like one, one in thought process, one in development, and maybe one shooting, you know, at the same time. But don’t have 25 projects open, and you’re going to be email crazy. Your brain can’t handle it. You’re just a human. We all think we are more than that. And yes, we have chat GPT, and yes, we can do or work a lot faster, but it’s not the same thing as like, if you, if you do things, if your brain fires too fast, it’s it won’t rewire as fast. And I’m working with a neuropharmacologist right now on a medical device video that is, she’ll be speaking at all of the conventions coming up. She’s amazed and doing a TED talk. But um, the science that I’m learning from, from just that and the perspective of the way MRIs can read brains and map people and think they there’s so many, you know, ways you can look at that. I’m just saying. Be open to anything but, but just like I told you before, learn what you don’t like and then don’t do it anymore. Don’t make yourself do that. It’s not worth it. It doesn’t grow you. Sometimes

Dan LeFebvre  40:11

you don’t know until you go through it, though. So that’s, that’s a definitely good piece of advice.

Robyn Flanery  40:16

Yeah, some people love working on reality shows. Boo day to them. You know, there’s more for them.

Dan LeFebvre  40:24

Yeah. Well, movies always do a great job of helping the audience kind of travel to another time and place, and we see, especially with the historical movies that we talk about on this show, where the wrong location can really take you out of the story if it’s not in line with what really happened. It’s just another crucial element to storytelling that I think a lot of people don’t really even realize how much work goes into it. So with your experience as a location scout, how do you help ensure that the actual location that we see in the movie aligns with the story that’s being told? Before

Robyn Flanery  40:56

you go scout, you talk to all of the players, sometimes they don’t want to let you do that. I would say you read the entire script and all of the director’s notes and any editor’s notes that are already there, because there might be color grading notes, there might be VFX notes, there might be all these things that can change the appearance of places. If you do all that, you’re pretty prepared. I would say, if you want to be a location scout, go out and do some spec for some big guys. They’ll take it. That’s means free go out. They’ll they love Wait, let’s free work. Yeah, I’m sick. I’ll be 62 this year, so I’m not doing spec work anymore. But when I was younger, I did a lot of spec work. That’s how I got into this. And then journalists came to me, and they’re like, How’d you do this? How’d you get the snitch? And I’m like, Well, I just started doing it, and then I started doing it for free, like the for instance, the first time the NASA me shoot facility was used for movie making is really kind of because of me, because I was hired for spec to do by Ken Gord, a producer who was good to make a movie called silver cord, and he needed to do 35 he needed to have a space to do 35 foot higher wire hanging stunts, right? So I’m thinking, and my friend husband, was an engineer at NASA. I said those silos are empty right now, because we’re not doing space shuttle anymore. Can I come out and look at them? You know, a crazy thing like that. So I got there, and I met with the guy who took me on a golf cart all through the whole secret facilities, and everything was really cool. And I ended up that that movie never ended up getting the green light. But with my big mouth, I tell everybody, oh, my God, this is a perfect place to make movies, and tons of them, Green Lantern. Oh, Green Lantern was a lake for airport, but, Geostorm, there’s so many on my resume that did stunts there, but I didn’t get any pay for any of that, because that was spec work I did. And I could be angry, but no, I’m like, real. I’m cool with that, that they figured out a place to make our our little area, some money, I

Dan LeFebvre  42:56

think too. It kind of goes back to what you’re talking about. Dan, don’t be afraid to ask questions, even if somebody doesn’t want to answer. But, I mean, the answer might be no, but you want, okay,

Robyn Flanery  43:07

just don’t be afraid to ask, because the worst that somebody can do to you say no. And you can just ask as many people as you want, and you can get a whole lot of knowledge that way, perspectives too. And then it might help you in script writing, if you need to make changes. Well, so and so and so I heard on the street said this about this place and so and so said that, what do you think we should do? Y’all and you might get a whole team, your of your data people to tell you, Oh, wow, that makes sense. Maybe we should change that. Well,

Dan LeFebvre  43:34

we talked a little bit about some of the differences between like Dallas Buyers Club and documentaries, but you’ve also worked on some fictional movies, like Planet of the Apes. Do you approach your work any differently knowing that a film is, quote, unquote, based on a true story?

Robyn Flanery  43:47

No, because during those I didn’t really care what the story was about, because I was dealing with the A list actors and housing them on those so I didn’t care much about that. But if I work directly on the show, then, yeah, I wanted it to be historically active, but I was the low person on the film at that point in time to writing. How many say by the time it got to me, everything was packaged. Makes

Dan LeFebvre  44:15

sense. I know throughout your career, you’ve helped some other directors bring their vision to life, and you’ve also been in the director’s chair yourself. Do you find it’s easier to tell a story on screen as the director, or is it easier to follow someone else’s vision?

Robyn Flanery  44:29

It’s easier to tell my own story, and also harder, and it’s also harder, and then easier to tell someone else’s and you have to ask a ton of questions if you’re doing someone else’s vision. Because no matter how they say, Oh, my heart’s not in this. Yes, it is. And if they tell you, Oh, you do whatever you want, they don’t mean that. They don’t, especially when it comes to VFX or any kind of thing like that, they it’s like an explosion escape means you. 10 different things to 10 different people. So if you that’s ringing the script building, to me, that means somebody walking away from throwing a match explosion behind him. I’m victory. But to someone else, it means someone exploding out, you know, and that’s a whole different thing. So either way, whatever you’re trying to portray, you need to develop a deep and intensive relationship with your director or your writer, your executive producer, who has, whoever has gone out and gotten the money for that movie you listen to, and they’re the boss. Yeah, pretty much the buck stops there. Literally, I like that. Yeah, and on my movies, in in K in catering, I don’t adhere to this rule at all that the director always eats last. I’m always the hungriest, so I just eat whenever I want. But on a lot of feature movies, you there must be special accommodations for the director in the catering areas and so, and they make sure that there’s the way that they make sure their crew got fed, is make sure there’s still enough for them when they get there. And so that’s a thing I learned that that, you know, a lot of people do. And I was like, Well, you know, I ordered enough, so I know I didn’t just trust somebody doing a line item on my finance sheet and maybe cut this and not that. That’s where, if you have a little bit of control, then you don’t have to have those types of rules. That’s what makes it easier. Whenever you’re telling your own story and you’re making your own budget, it’s so much easier because it flows easier. But then again, if you get something wrong, it’s all on you. Now that’s true. So some It depends if I if I want to do someone else’s vision, like I just got asked to work on something that was about human trafficking. And for me, the story was too dark and there was too much content. It was at critical mass. And so I passed. I think it’ll be a wonderful movie, but I don’t know how many people it will help at this point. So to me, in with my vision, what I do unless it could be a real call to action, it didn’t seem it just seemed salacious to me, so I didn’t want to do it. But someone else will see that project as not salacious and find a way to help people, because it’ll fit in with them, and that story would be better told by somebody is, I think, getting to the point in your career where you can realize what you’re good at and what you’re not good at, and being okay, and being able to throw your ego on the floor and go, you know, I don’t think I’m the best person to do this, but here’s this person might be. That’s when you’re really good, when you can do that and and I’m not saying I’m really good at all. I’m bad at a lot of stuff, but I’m good at knowing what I’m good at and what I’m bad at. Like

Dan LeFebvre  47:47

you mentioned earlier, talking about reality TV. I mean, that’s not for you, but it might be for somebody else, and that’s fine. You’re like, they might be good at

Robyn Flanery  47:53

it too, yeah. And I’ve referred my friends to the name. Some of them love it. I’m like, yay. They go for you

Dan LeFebvre  47:58

exactly. Wait, you talked briefly about visual effects. And I have to ask about your VFX background, because before I started this podcast, I worked in CG software, like real flow was kind of my specialty, with my soft image xsi, for those old so I love to hear more about your visual effects background. Can you share a little bit about

Robyn Flanery  48:18

that? Yeah, I mean, a little bit about it, is, is, is, is pretty much as far as I ever went in the old school way of doing it, you know. So I can’t really talk from a place where you can talk from, from Maya and, you know, writing your own code for this, although I’ve done that for specific animations, but that’s in the 90s, you know. Yeah, little different sense, totally different since then. So right now, I will hire it out if I have the budget for it, but if I don’t, if it’s for, like, a little short commercial. I mean, look, I’m not above using a plug and play, drag and drop type of thing anymore, but I also have worked on some you know, where you use the platters, like where the Mandalorian was made, so you can have a lot more freebies in writing than programming and engineering those scenes. But most people nowadays just want fast, fast, fast. And I, I think there’s an art to it that’s lost right now, but I think it’s on the way back. So we shall see. I’ve done a whole lot of like, you know, DIY, Foley and stuff like that, which goes along with the FX in many ways. But people don’t want to spend money on that anymore. They don’t even want a wine item. If they just, oh, we’ll use this app later. Yeah, that doesn’t work.

Dan LeFebvre  49:42

Foley art is one of those. It’s just pure magic to me. I don’t I’m not a sound person, but just just the way they’re able to come up with, oh, this sound is this? I, my mind doesn’t work that way. Yeah. For me,

Robyn Flanery  49:55

if you take like, a machete and you have like, a very, very hard, I. Burg lettuce, and you whack it, it sounds like decapitation. So

Dan LeFebvre  50:05

I would, I’ll take your word for it,

Robyn Flanery  50:13

just nerdy, weird stuff. You’re like, well, I bet that sounds like this. You have to start the you have to listen for about, I guess, a good month or so, or you can take a class in it now, but listening to things, and if you listen more and talk less, it’s amazing how many patterns you can find in sound. So perhaps that helps. But I’ve helped a lot of people find studio space that do Foley, you know? And it’s really interesting to learn. And I watched some stuff audio, you know, and have some dps, like, my daughter is engaged to a DP, who’s amazing. And I’ve learned some techniques, you know, that I would never have known, because I have a car that I have, a Bronco that has a convertible top. So and I bought it so I could shoot, like crane shots from the top and Astro photography and stuff. So I think, if you I really like the old school ways that we when we used to be able to program things and make them unique, than the way we use the little drag and drop or overlays and things like that these days, but it’s so much more expensive to do that now. So people are taking it like, Oh, my, I can handle looking, but I can tell I’ve done a lot of betas for a lot of AI VFX and stuff like that. So I can, I can really, really tell when it’s not real and I don’t like that, and I know it’s not real when you’re writing the program, either, but it seems a lot more real. Look Okay, for Close Encounters of the Third Kind, the cloud progression. Come on. Genius. Can you do that now? You can do some smoke effect, but it’s not the same. No, not to me. I mean, I’m sure there’s a lot I don’t know, and maybe that, since I don’t specialize in that anymore, there’s a lot of stuff that’s better, but I haven’t seen it,

Dan LeFebvre  52:12

yeah, well, I think a lot of it kind of sounds like it goes back to what you were talking about before. Like, if you have 20 projects going on, you’re not going to be able to stop. And you’re talking about, like with foliar, to be able to identify the different sounds. And it almost sounds like another way of saying, stop and smell the roses. Like take the time, especially when it comes to something creative, it helps to take that time, and the best way to do that is to not have a million different projects going on at once, but rather just focus on what you can do. Know what you’re good at, like you were talking about earlier

Robyn Flanery  52:41

you’re so right, and it’s always that way. I think the older you get, the more you realize that and and maybe I’m just privileged to have been able to have that type of time, and other people don’t, and I recognize that, but it always helps everything if you put your whole heart into a project, and if you do put your whole heart into a project, then you’re real dedicated to listening and learning and experiencing so that other people can experience what’s going on in your head. It’s really hard to get what’s out in here, out onto paper or out onto the screen in a way that is relevant, relatable to other people if you don’t, and especially if you don’t do that.

Dan LeFebvre  53:26

Well, let’s say they made a movie about your life. What would the title and synopsis of it be?

Robyn Flanery  53:31

Oh, God, she died in the saddle. I don’t know. I mean, I have no idea. I’ve done so many things and so many projects that it would sort of be like, I think she maybe the title would be, she wanted to do everything.

Dan LeFebvre  53:49

Good title, yeah, I do,

Robyn Flanery  53:51

and it would be about all the different things I’ve learned how to do. Because I think the more I know how to build a house, I know how to fly a plane. I know how to fly a drone. I know how to operate multiple cameras. I know a little bit about good lighting and audio, VFX, every, every aspect of everything. So you just if somebody walks in and they’re a green director that didn’t, never went to film school or anything, perhaps they don’t know what the departments are, you know, and what they’re for. I think if you sit and learn all that, like you said, there’s a million white names under that. This keeps scrolling forever. If you start learning what all that is, you’re better help to the team. So maybe just do that. And that would be what I would suggest doing, learn, use. I think we’re put here as human beings to learn. So I could be well wrong. Maybe if you are here to be hedonistic, you know, person and run around naked and do wild things. But to me, it’s been about to learn about those people. I want to know about those people, why they chose that. You know, when I was four, I wanted to join Greenpeace, and, you know, so. I think this just, I was just boring like this to be people called me, God, you do so much Superwoman Rennes. I’m like, No, I’m really not. I’m a regular person. I’ve just have an inquisitive mind. That’s it. I’m not anything special,

Dan LeFebvre  55:15

going back to not being afraid to ask questions, and also what you’re talking about too, like not to outshine the Masters, but but to learn from them and soak it in. Go to those different departments, talk to those different people, find out what they do, and learn from them

Robyn Flanery  55:28

and always credit them. Always it’s I mean, unless they don’t want you to like if they don’t like their name associated with yours. You know, some people don’t for different reasons, and so you don’t do that, but if you do, they’ll come and tell you, yeah,

Dan LeFebvre  55:46

usually not shy about that. Yeah,

Robyn Flanery  55:48

no, they’re not shy if you do anything like that. But for the most part, if you, if you’re just trying to learn from the master and like, like Robert Greene said, Well, I edited this piece of, you know, journalism and I did a better job than my teacher. I should have never done that well. But that also pulls up my heart two different ways, because if you’re learning from your master, aren’t you supposed to go out and do a better job than them? Or they’re the teacher. They’re not doing the practice anymore. Aren’t you supposed to go out and practice that? So I do have a little there’s always a difference. That’s why I’m saying. There’s a million sides to everything. If you can spend your time on your project, figuring out what everybody and everybody’s opinion is on it, then you can tell the story. That’s part of being a historian, though, and it’s part of why your your podcast is so good, because that’s what people need to know. Especially Gen Z and Gen alpha, they don’t know everything’s so fast and about hype and and followers and popularity, that’s fame takes you here, where things are hollow. David Bowie, I mean, think about what you really want, and if what you want is for people to like you, people don’t really like you or even know you, if they’re just responding to you on social media from a character you play. For instance, my brother. Everybody thinks my brother’s like Connor. No, he isn’t. He doesn’t even have a tattoo, for God’s sake. Y’all, it’s he’s an actor who does a job well in real life. He’s a very thoughtful, intuitive. He loves music. He’d be great DJ if he wasn’t an actor. I think he’s given me some soundtrack of my life. And you know, it came from our parents. And our dad loved music, and Sean does too. But I think that taking the time to learn how things used to be done, how you think things will be done in the future, and all the choices you have now, and choosing the best every time makes you a better filmmaker or a better person at anything. Never be afraid to ask questions to people. I mean, if you’re intimidated, remember you’re alive right now and I’m live right now. We’re both wearing meat suits that we didn’t have choice to pick, and we’re in the same timeline, so we all have about the same lifespans, basically. So why would you be afraid of asking another being like yourself? You’re at a different point in this journey. So they’re on the same journey. They’re not better than you. Ask them, all I can do is tell you, no kid, I’m not going to answer that, or F you, or whatever they’re going to say, don’t be Be not afraid. My children. Get out there. Ask questions. This is your earth. Pound it down and learn about it. Watch all the movies, man, watch all the old movies, and then watch all the remakes and see what you like better. Yeah,

Dan LeFebvre  58:48

see how they’re different. We’re talking about with Rita. And just you talk about movies in general, there’s just a great way to tell stories to be remembered. We just heard kind of what your movie was going to be. But of course, the whole concept of my show is to compare movies with the true story, and so there’s gonna be some differences there. Let’s throw out the constraints of a movie. How do you want to be remembered as

Robyn Flanery  59:10

a person who really cared about and gave their whole heart to things? I would literally give the shirt off my back, even if it was my last shirt, to someone who I thought needed it worse than me. People know that about me also. People think I am very, very mean and harsh. If you get that side of me, you deserve it, and I know that, and I’m okay with that, but I would like to be remembered as a person who considered all viewpoints and who was kind. That’s it, not rich, not famous, not smarter than anybody, but a person who really was inquisitive boy, she really needed to ask a lot of questions. That’s probably the way it would happen, is like, damn, she asked too many questions, but

Dan LeFebvre  59:56

you won’t know until you ask. And so I think it’s great to ask those questions. Questions, and because other people, too won’t think about that some sometimes too, I can’t remember you just, you just mentioned it a moment ago, where somebody else had a different approach on on something, I think was one of the DPS, or something had a different approach, you wouldn’t even thought of that same sort of thing with questions you wouldn’t even you might ask questions that somebody else won’t even think about, and then that sparks another question that they have that you wouldn’t think about, and everybody learns and is better because of it. Yeah, and that’s

Robyn Flanery  1:00:26

the biggest thing that I wish people would get back to you in filmmaking, is teamwork. Okay, like, really, really, really, using the I don’t know if hivemind is PC anymore, running or whatever, but everybody getting on the same thought track, and so you’re all sort of rolling things off each other to where you make that perfect. And you can all see the little glowing sphere whenever the minds come together in the writing room. You know, you’re like, we got it and it wasn’t what you originally thought. If you walked in and just started being authoritarian, telling everybody what to do, you would have never gotten there. So why not just ask and give everybody respect. I don’t care whether they are your intern or whether they are the executive producer or God, they are all going to get respect and be treated equally as human beings that are in the same timeline, in the meat seat they didn’t choose trying to just live, you know, so respect is really key. Yeah,

Dan LeFebvre  1:01:23

yeah. Well, as we start to wrap this up, let’s end it on a happy note. What’s one of your happiest memories from your years working in the film industry? Oh

Robyn Flanery  1:01:31

my goodness. I think getting that shot over Mount parada boy. I mean, that was the perfect lens flare. I’m

Dan LeFebvre  1:01:41

gonna go back and watch that. Watch for that one again too. Yeah, now that I know that there’s no extra effect, you just assume there’s gonna be effects or things like that. And it’s like, too perfect to be real, but

Robyn Flanery  1:01:50

it’s all real. I mean, you know, I wanted to do the low water high rise, and did we? It didn’t even take us. I was blown away whenever I saw that in the dailies. I’m like, No, I was crying. It was fat. I mean, it takes a lot to get me to tears. Well, not really anymore, but you know, it That was beautiful. Finding something that just is physically perfect in the world, the film, the celluloid, whatever you want to call it these days, all melds together. And there’s just such beauty that it can’t be deny that.

Dan LeFebvre  1:02:23

Thank you so much for coming on the show to help my audience learn a little more about your part of Hollywood history. Thank you. And speaking of my audience, if you’re watching this right now, go to the show notes, because there’s a link to Robin’s latest project. So before I let you go, Robin, can you share an overview of profit over people?

Robyn Flanery  1:02:39

Yeah, profit over people is about the failure of the United States healthcare system and how people have suffered and died due to this. And so a lot of individual stories where people just want to talk about it. And I thought that it was me, because I have a disease that is a horrible stage four disease. I have had stem cells now, and they’re a very wonderful benefactor, and I’m much better because I went from being a terminally ill patient to a chronically ill patient. So I don’t want any more go find me money. Thank you, though, for offering that was really cool, but I don’t want to take anything that I don’t need anymore, because that’s not who I am.

Dan LeFebvre  1:03:20

I mean, I’m happy to hear that much better, too. That’s great.

Robyn Flanery  1:03:24

It is. But profit over people is at profit over people on YouTube, and it is a story. It are there multiple stories. We go all the way from a diagnosed narcissist talking about how they react. So that’s a really interesting episode, all the way to bioengineering and cell human cells and how they can be manipulated through CRISPR and DNA to different diseases and how they’re treated in different countries, as opposed to the United States of America. So it’s really interesting. Explains why medical tourism is $180 billion business, and we don’t get any healing. Why not? Yeah, we’re one of the very we’re one of the few developed countries that don’t have socialized medicine, and our our our congressmen and senators do, but we don’t get it. That’s not fair

Dan LeFebvre  1:04:18

for thee and not for me, is that, as it goes,

Robyn Flanery  1:04:21

right and so that that whole, this whole show, hopefully will shame them into fixing this. That’s our hope. We want to get an audience with Congress. We’re attempting to do that.

Dan LeFebvre  1:04:33

Oh, that would be fantastic.

Robyn Flanery  1:04:37

Yeah, I’d like to go speak to Congress to talk about why somebody like me has to go to lose a house in the Caribbean to pay for their illness and then get do a GoFundMe, you know, and continue to have to work really, really hard just to scrap to get to make a living, because I got sick when it could have been okay, but a doctor said you need to turn the camera on yourself. Rob. It. Well, I didn’t like that, but I did it, and then I went, Wait a minute, how can I get out of turning the camera on myself? I’ll tell other people’s stories. So that’s how it originated, and that’s what it’s about. And it’s, it’s tales of really strong things, and also it has some wins too. So runs the gamut. It’s fantastic.

Dan LeFebvre  1:05:17

I’ll make sure to add a link to that in the show notes. Thank you again, so much for your time, Robin. Nice talking with you.

Robyn Flanery  1:05:23

Thanks for having me.

Dan LeFebvre  02:21

Before we look at some of the details in the movie, if you were to give Maria an overall letter grade for its historical accuracy, what would it get?

Sophia Lambton  02:31

I would give it a G. So it’s going off the scale of customary grades here.

Dan LeFebvre  02:38

Doesn’t even count as a traditional letter grade. The opening scene of the movie is Maria’s death, but it’s also how it ends. And then most of the movie itself is the final week of her life, and we get flashbacks of Maria’s earlier life here and there that will throughout the movie that we’ll talk about. But let’s start today by filling in some of the historical context, because since the movie is focusing on that final week of her life, we don’t really get a lot of who Maria Callas was. So for listeners who aren’t familiar with who Maria Callas was, can you feel in some more historical context that we don’t see up until the timeline of the movie starts,

Sophia Lambton  03:18

Maria Callas was a Greek American soprano. She was born to Greek parents in Manhattan on the second of December 1923 she had pretty negligent parents. They were quite first of all, they just didn’t love their daughters, especially the mother, Evangelia. But the father George was also not great. He He had trouble sustaining contact with his daughters through the years, and at one point, when callous and he actually did an interview together, he couldn’t remember he got the dates of both daughters birthdays wrong in public. In an interview, he was a pharmacist, they were not well off. When callous was 13 years old, Evangelia decided to take her and her sister, yanti, who was known in America as Jackie, and generally as Jackie to Athens, Marie Kals, began performing very, very early. She was actually, according to her cousin Mary annexy, she was actually singing whilst playing with a ball, even at the age of three, and by the age of five, she was parading around the living room with a with her other cousins, shawl singing the habanero, or just fitted Dan Yeah, from the opera mignon, which isn’t even that popular in opera. She actually began entering radio contests at the age of think it was 12 and, well, I’ll, I’ll share more on that later. But she had quite a difficult time during the war in Athens, not just the war that we know of, but also the Greek civil war between communists and allies of the British, which was actually bloodier in Athens than World War Two. She came back to New York in 19. 45 trying to make a career, and reunited with her father, whom she hadn’t seen in eight years. But that didn’t help her much, so she went to Rona in June 1947 and little by little, she both made a career, but she also met her husband, Giovanni Battista minigini, a man 28 years her senior, who was not at all attractive, but she was not really she didn’t have a big interest in men or romance, per se, so she did love him. He was a father figure to her, and she she saw him as a nurturing man. He also became her manager, but in his over greed, he actually inadvertently calls for a bad reputation, because he demanded too much from opera houses. Demanded too much pay from opera houses, you know, spread rumors about other soprano she would never have spread herself anyway. They began to have marital problems because he kept insisting she’s seeing more and more at a time when she was really having very severe vocal problems. And finally, I’ll get to this more detail later on. But finally, he admitted he had invested their money in forgeries as paintings. And she said, Well, I’d like to take over my own career. And he said, No, that’s not going to happen. And he left her. He left her coincidentally, truly, coincidentally, as a time when she was when they were both socializing with the Greek shipping magnate, Aristotle Onassis. And later on, later on, she began a relationship with Onassis that lasted for actually, it didn’t last much longer than eight and a half years. But throughout that time, having got I forgot to mention so she was building her career. Obviously, that what made her absolutely unparalleled was the fact that she could sculpt her voice. She could sculpt the tamper of her voice to really incarnate a character to the point that you sometimes don’t even recognize the voice. So you’re hearing a Japanese, 15 year old Japanese Geisha in the voice of a 3031, year old, a Greek American soprano who, by that point, was living in Italy, she took insane artistic risks that other singers generally do not take, because it’s it’s perilous for the voice, and her vocal decline is not exactly a mystery, but there were multiple factors going into it, various health problems, and that was the main plight of her life. Later on, actually, she she dumped Aristotle and asked us three months before he, quite famously, married Jacqueline Kennedy. During those three months after she dumped him, he kept trying to get her back, but she wouldn’t take his calls. He sent her bouquets. She you know, she just, she was actually traveling around the United States and Mexico, and was not answering his calls, but she did not know he was going to marry Jack Mackenzie, and was obviously hurt when he did later on. She knowing that she had this terrible vocal decline. I will have a mention that she never retired, and we’ll get to that point further on in the podcast, she never retired, so her career was never suspended or ended. But there were periods when she sang less because she was going through various health problems and that was impacting her voice. And she tried a film career. So she tried. She played the role of Medea in Pierpaolo pozzolini, Medea in 19 it was shot in 1969 came out in 1970 in the US. She tried being an opera director in Turin, where she and her tenor partner, Giuseppe DiStefano, who actually later, or actually around that time, in 1972 was already her lover, they tried staging Verdi’s events, but that didn’t fit her either. And she also tried giving master classes at the Julia School of New York series, master classes from October 71 to February 1972 which are all recorded and all on YouTube, and they’re tremendous fun. And this was later on, much later on. This inspired a play by Terence McNally called master class, which was on Broadway. It got Zoe Caldwell Tony, I believe it’s actually a very fictitious play, but the master classes themselves were fascinating. However, she found she didn’t really like teaching that much. She did have a big comeback tour with Giuseppe Miss Efrain from 73 to 74 when her voice was ready in a very, very bad way, and she considered many projects later on before Well, her health just kept getting worse, but also her voice just was not recoverable for various reasons. However, she was considering projects and practicing, rehearsing for projects up to her death. This film is apparently focusing on the last week of her life, but it’s very misleading even about that, because there have been various portrayals and perceptions of Mary camps being this terrible recluse at the end of her life. And yes, it is true that she did not go out as often she had. She was very, very unhappy, apart from the fact that Onassis, by that point, had died, because people tend to center her sadness on this, but also her dear friend, the film director, lucchinov. Ganti, who had staged her in opera, had also passed away not long after Onassis her dear friend Pier Paolo Pasolini, who had directed her only film, ROM role, had been brutally murdered at I don’t remember what age he was about. Her rating was about 5152 she had gone through various losses. She couldn’t understand why she couldn’t recover her voice. So it’s not just that, oh on US has died and then she didn’t eat the house. That’s absolutely not true. In the last week of her life, she met up with Princess Grace. So Grace Kelly, who had who then became Princess Grace, she had lunch with her and the conductor Franco manino, a longtime friend of hers, reminisced about the past. She was also going to meet with the French choreographer Maurice Baja to discuss a potential project, some kind of film about singing with him. She actually was on the phone with a woman I interviewed, Bettina Brentano, who was still only a kid then, I think, 18 years old, so just about an adult. And she told Bettina, they Betina told her. They told me often, because Bettina was going to undergo an appendectomy. But by the afternoon, Mary calles had died, and she was also planning, according to George Moore, the president of the Metropolitan Opera Association, she was planning to visit him in Sotogrande, Spain. So it is not the case that she alienated herself from everybody and shunned everybody and said, No, I’m not going to talk to anybody. The head’s true, but the ending of her life was very sad. It was obviously quite premature, because she died at 53 but she was still very determined to Pierce, persevere and to survive.

Dan LeFebvre  11:33

Wow, yeah, it seems sounds like she had so much more to her than obviously we see in the movie, because we don’t really see much of her actual life in in the movie, it just kind of focuses on the end there, but the talking about the strain that it had on her voice, and just just the performances and opera that taking chances like that, but then getting into acting and teaching and all these other things too, was that something that was uncommon at the time, that she was doing things and then just almost mentioning her husband pushing her to do that was, was she being pushed to do more and more things that were strenuous and putting even more strain on her?

Sophia Lambton  12:13

Well, that’s a really good question. Dan, actually, because her career became very young, she sang, she was, I told I mentioned everything radio conscious. I think 11 was the first one. She was 11 when she entered the first one. She made her she sang her first role at the age of 15. Later on, she would say, my mother pushed me. But we also know that she herself was a performance geek from a very young age. She was very determined to succeed. She would say, reflecting back on her teenage years that she would work, she would work toward performing because she went, she actually attended two conservatories, the National Conservatory in Athens and the Athens Conservatoire, but she didn’t graduate from either one because she didn’t attend the mandatory harmony classes, as she thought the teacher was bad and she failed to examine music history. But she was a geek when it came to performance, and she would work from 10am to 8pm every single day. And she would reflect, reflect on it, saying, but you know, you would ask, well, didn’t I want to go out? Well, no, I had no interest in going out. I that was what she was. She wanted to she would say, the poet speaks of the mind’s eye. There is the mind’s ear. There is so much you can do even without a piano. And she would talk about rehearsing operas in her head, just on the bus in Athens during the war. So she she pushed herself harder than anybody else. Now, in terms of her vocal strain, that’s the whole giant topic, whether she pushed herself so hard that she handed is a difficult question. Is also the subject of her weight loss, which could have had an effect, but primarily what caused vocal decline was damage to the stomach muscles, which ruined her support, the support of her vocal apparatus, because her vocal cords were always fine. And she went to various kind of doctors, laryngologists, lung doctors, you know, she went to see all the specialists. And it wasn’t her ailment, in terms of her vocal decline. That wasn’t anything, uh, visible. It wasn’t something you could identify and say, Oh, so this happened, but she did get uh, several hernias, including one which she said was in the diaphragm, which would have also, uh, apparently it pushes out through the diaphragm, and she said it, she herself said it damaged her stomach muscles in terms of, was she being pushed to do things her husband when they were together, she was at the peak of her career, really the peak of her career. We’re talking 5758 59 Yeah, he wanted her to do things she didn’t want to do. He also tried to get her to sing when she felt unwell, so when she had the flu or bronchitis, and she did push herself through that, but she was also pushing herself through that because the media was giving her an unfair reputation as a diva, which was partly because her husband was demanding higher salaries, kind of to her, not to her knowledge. So she kind of left him in charge of all that, and didn’t want to. Have much to do with also because she had various arguments with Opera House managers, because she wanted everything to be perfect, not for herself, but for the composers. She always used to say, I am a servant of the composers. She was very self Lovick. She never thought she was giving enough, but she herself wrote an article for a French newspaper called out with just the arts, basically in 1958 saying, I will not, I cannot stand by and see opera being treated in a shabby or second rate way. So it was never about making life easier for her. It was about making life, making the world of opera as best as it could be when her husband did, and we’ll get on to this later on, when her husband did want her to do projects that she didn’t want to do, like film, for instance, he wanted her to be in. She was offered the role, the leading lady role in Carl Foreman’s The Guns of Navarone. I think Carl Forman was produced with that which eventually starred Gregory Peck and Irene papas. She was offered the leading role in the German film called the Prima Donna. She was offered some kind of gig singing in a cabaret at Las Vegas, and that’s when she told her husband, no, this isn’t me. I sing opera. I don’t want to do some stuff. And she and she didn’t, in terms of the master classes and directing evasive Giuliani in Turin and starring in Medea, those were more. Those were her trying to find herself in other ventures, and she tried, she really committed to them, but she never felt quite at ease in any one of the three. But that’s a later callus that doesn’t have anything to do with her husband, because those ventures started in 1969 she split from her husband in 1959

Dan LeFebvre  16:38

if we go back to the movie, kind of throughout the movie we see a character named mandrax. He’s played by Cody Schmidt McKee, and he’s interviewing her throughout the movie. But it doesn’t really take long, as was watching the movie, to figure out that he’s not a real person. Mandrax is the name of a drug that she’s taking quite a lot. There’s a one scene in the movie where we see Maria’s Butler, frucci, oh, keeping tabs on how many she’s taking, and it seems like she’s taking at least four pills a day, along with some other medications. The movie doesn’t really talk about why she’s taking it and some of these other medications, so I thought maybe she was perhaps ill. You kind of talked a little bit about some of the vocal decline in that. But then there’s towards the end of the movie, not to get ahead of our timeline here, but begrudgingly, she gets some blood work done, and a doctor flat out tells her that she tries to sing the extra stress and medications that she’ll need to get through that will kill her. So can you unravel this whole mandrax thing that we see in the movie and how it played into if there was an illness that Maria had?

Sophia Lambton  17:36

Oh gosh. Well, first of all, she did not have any kind of substance abuse disorder at all. She was not addicted to pills. She did take a pills called mandrax to sleep. She had terrible insomnia problems. And on two occasions in her life, it is true that on two occasions in her life, she accidentally took too many so and it was hard to wake her up. So that was on the 17th of February, 74 when she was supposed to sing at Carnegie Hall, and four years, almost four years before that, on the 25th of May, 1970 but those were accidents caused by the fact that Maria Callas was, to be honest, quite an ignorant person when it came to anything except mutual sorry, music, music and culture at large. She her entire schooling. Her entire schooling, except for music, finished at the when she was 13 years old. Wow, she did not graduate high school. She went from her mother taking her from New York, from middle school to enlisting at a Conservatoire, being asked by her mother to lie and say she was 17, you know. And she also did not have close relationships with her parents. Her sister, that was a tricky relationship. So nobody. There was no guidance to say other than the fact that in those days, you know people, her generation typically do not know much about pharma, pharmacological things in general, you know tablets or anything else. But there was also no guidance to tell her about this. So there were two occasions when she took too many but she did not have a disorder. She was not addicted. She was not dependent on these tablets. It is true that in the last couple of years of her life, she really, really had problems sleeping, and she did ask her sister Jackie to send them from Greece because they were not on the market. But I don’t understand why that’s such a big deal when they were, for instance, they were, they were not on the market in Paris where she lived. That’s true, but they were on the US market until 1983 so we’re not talking about some forbidden, you know, forbidden, taboo drug. Here she was, however, yeah, so I will mention, also in the film, it’s, it’s completely fictional, because the doctor mentions her liver. And Marie Kellis did have many health problems. I never heard about anything wrong with her liver from her or anybody else. Ironically, I actually remember there’s at one point she says, Onassis liver is okay, but there was never anything about her liver. She had so many problems throughout her life. She was such an unwell woman for. First of all, and most of all, she had, or you could say, lethally, low blood pressure, because eventually she died of a heart attack, but was mostly spurred on by her blood pressure. But she pushed herself and pushed herself, and at one point in May 1965 performed Norma, which is one of the most difficult operas for any soprano, when her blood pressure was 70 over 50, so she would just push herself and push herself. She had had an underactive thyroid in her youth. She had eczema, she had acne, she she had such low blood pressure she could drink 10 espressos a day. She had allergies to antibiotics, which meant that when she in 1958 when she had she had an, I won’t say what it was, because it was an embarrassing for her. It would have been an embarrassing gastro, gastroin, gastrointestinal, yes, gastrointestinal thing that caused it made her have an operation. She couldn’t have painkillers after them because she was allergic to the painkillers. But she performed il Perata, which is one of Opera’s most difficult operas ever. The next day, when she got on a plane, her legs would be swollen in this film, at some point, Angelina Jolie’s character Maria, says her legs went purple. Don’t know where that came from. Her legs never went purple, but her legs would be swollen because her circulation wasn’t that great, which is what happens to people with low blood pressure. She would suffer from terrible migraines. She had allergies to various herbs, including garlic. She would have anemia in about 1970 I think she had cerebral anemia, which is a particular kind of anemia. She would be diagnosed with exhaustion at various points in her life. She had jaundice at various points in her life, and also at various points in her life, she got laryngitis, bronchitis, pharyngitis, trachetitis, which all disturbed her performances, because obviously they have an effect on your voice when she did finally die. This happened shortly after she had complained to her doctor that she felt pain on the left side of her back, which was obviously a precursor to a heart attack, but he he attributed it to flu and rheumatism. It is, however, also true that she had been diagnosed with dermatomyositis, which is an autoimmune disorder by a doctor called Mario Joker. So Marco jocovid. So I remember his name is Joko. That’s it. Marco Mario. Okay, sorry, I don’t remember for this moment that was an autoimmune disorder. And he then later speculated much, much later in about 2002 so decades after her death, he said maybe that caused a vocal decline, but the median prognosis for somebody with that disease is about 12 years, 12.3 years, for someone receiving treatment and her vocal decline. You can speculate when it began, but it was already very present. By 1957 she died in 1977 so I don’t think she had dermatomyositis, untreated and survived for 20 years, but that caused a violet tinge on her neck and wars on her hands. So she did have very many ailments, obviously. I mean, I say obviously, obviously. I’m not a doctor. She also didn’t have a post mortem, but she had a heart attack. She collapsed in front of you. Mentioned her button of filcho. She collapsed in front of him and her maid, Bruna, who was also fictionalized in this film, they were there when she died. She clapped. She had a heart attack. She died in terms of, was her singing killing her? I wouldn’t go that far for sure. And she was never told by any doctor, if you sing, you will die. She was, however, advised against singing because of her exhaustion at various points, and she often did it anywhere because she feared terribly. She feared being villainized by the media and being described as a diva who refuse to go on stage. Because, instead of saying no, I mean, I know the media have to exaggerate and have to have clickbait headlines. And Callis, by the way, understood that too, she would say, I know, you know, they have to fill their pages, and they have their job, and I have mine. But instead of saying, recalci goes on stage despite having blood pressure of 70, over 50 or, you know, despite being very ill, they, they would say every time she had to cancel or suspend a performance, Marie Council does again. She’s a diva. She’s unruly, uh, they were not interested in reporting on her health at all. Um, so, yeah, that’s, that’s a story that’s just a little bit of her medical history, correct

Dan LeFebvre  24:21

me if I’m wrong. But with that, and then what you’re talking about earlier, with with her husband kind of being almost like a manager for handling all the business side, but then also with her not having a lot of schooling and focusing more on just the creative would it be correct to say that she she trusted, say her husband or or others, for a lot of that diagnosis, and she was that really just focused on pushing herself creatively, and then whatever the consequences were, she not being a doctor herself, just kind of trusted whoever was giving her advice at the time, whether it be her husband or doctors or. Wherever that may be,

Sophia Lambton  25:00

I would say that’s pretty much correct. But, yeah, she was a workaholic, and she really ran herself ragged. But even in July 1957 when she was diagnosed with exhaustion, and the doctor said, you really should cancel the next performances of La sonambola, she didn’t. She didn’t. She had previously asked for four instead of five. And there was then a scandal, because the manager, I can’t remember, who was organizing it, didn’t understand that she was going to sing the fifth one. So instead of the media saying there was a mix up between her husband, her manager, and it was, it was a La Scala production, but it was performing in Edinburgh and saying that there was a mix up between my guinea husband and it wasn’t getting Getty. Someone else was organizing it anyway. Do you remember the the guy? The name of the guy organizing this round was an ambulance. The media said, Oh, there she is off again, canceling performance because she’s such a big celebrity, and she thinks she has, she thinks she’s entitled to, and of all of all adjectives, Maria Carlos was not at all entitled. On the contrary, she was. She could be quite self loathing, and she endlessly tore herself to pieces feeling she hadn’t given enough.

Dan LeFebvre  26:12

Yeah, yeah. But that passion that she, I mean, you don’t get to that level without loving what you’re doing. And she obviously loved it. And you’re saying, you know, the hours that she practiced even, even as a child to get there, I mean, and then being a workaholic, you’re just gonna run yourself to that, to your own detriment, even, I think we see that happen a lot with with a lot of people, yeah,

Sophia Lambton  26:34

yeah. I mean, rehearsals until 3am and then to continue, you know, a record that was only 40 minutes long. Took her 40 hours to record and add another for another record. She spent 12 hours on, no, sorry, she spent three hours recording 12 bars of an aria because she didn’t like the way it was coming out. Wow,

Dan LeFebvre  26:57

wow. Well, I have a feeling I might know the answer to this next one. But in the movie, mandrax is not the only hallucination that we see her having. We see orchestras and choruses in various places that she’s going, but then not you mentioned her sister. And near the end of the movie, she gets to her sister comes to visit, and she grasps onto her sister arm to see if she’s even really there. Do we know if Maria saw hallucinations, like we see happening in the movie?

Sophia Lambton  27:27

No, Maria did not see hallucinations, except for when she was four years old, shortly after she got knocked over by a car. She kind of dramatized this when I don’t know how well she remembered it, but she remembered it as I was in hospital for three weeks because I got knocked over by a car, and I saw in my head hallucinations about music, which were fascinating and stimulating. But I don’t know how much of that was true. That was adult Maria, remembering four year old Maria, but other other than when she was four years old, she never reported hallucinations. She did have insomnia, and she did wake up quite late by the last two years of her life or so, so typically waking up midday or one o’clock. But no, she did not suffer from hallucino. Because, what I mean, why would she have suffered from because she would, that’s the thing. It’s bizarre. Mandrax was prescribed primarily as at least for her, it was a sleeping pill, right? And she didn’t have a substance abuse disorder, but she took them to sleep. I don’t know how this movie continues. Can insinuate she was taking them four times a day when she wasn’t asleep for the full day. You know, she takes

Dan LeFebvre  28:29

it right before she goes out. You wouldn’t take a sleeping pill right before you’re going out.

Sophia Lambton  28:35

Oh, by the way, I also forgot to mention that she had glaucoma. She had to take eye drops every at one point is every half hour. Maybe later on, it was every hour, but yeah, she was also going blind for some reason. This, this movie which wants to be so dramatic and serious, doesn’t touch on that, but it makes up hallucinations when she actually was losing the ability to see. Having already been severely myopic her whole life, she was very short sighted when she was on stage, she couldn’t really see anything. But she preferred it that way, because that way she felt she was on her own world. So she wouldn’t put in contact lenses. At one point, she accidentally left them in. So she would wear contact lenses in the daytime, and at one point she actually lent she accidentally left them in a torsca in Paris in 1960 this would have probably been 1965 and then she told her friend, Michelle glords, who was produced at EMI France, the record company EMI France, which is now Warner Music, she told him, I was completely overturned. I saw my colleagues, I saw the props, I saw the audience members scratching their heads. I was she said I was literally overturned. And I was shocked. And you know, she was horrified, because she felt so exposed. Because, other than that, she would come on stage before every before, well, yeah, during rehearsal, she would create a mental map of all the props in her head, because she had to know where everything was not, so as not to bump into everything, bump into anything. At one point, actually, her friend Stelios galatapos, who’s a music critic. Who then actually wrote one of the, one of the better books about her, quite a quite a good book about her. Remembered she was playing Medea, and she lost the dagger, the dagger she was using to kill her children. She lost it at some point, and she had to feel for it. And the way she felt for it was remembering where that the sound of the metal falling had landed by ear. I mean, that’s

Dan LeFebvre  30:22

impressive. I mean, just being able to remember all of that for each performance, because I’m sure you know, the stages in around the world that she’s performing are going to be different every time, and I don’t have that kind of memory either, wow. Well, if we go back to the if we go back to the movie. You already talked about some of this, but the way that the movie shows her being forced to stop singing, she we don’t see it happening, but she visits this theater to privately practice. There’s only one guy there who’s playing piano for he’s never really named in the movie. By looking at the cast listing, it’s Steven ashfield’s character, Jeffrey Tate, and Maria tells him that her last performance was in Japan about four and a half years before the time of the movie, she got a hernia. Her legs turned purple as you talked about it not happening, and everything swelled up. We don’t see that happening, but then we do see a scene with Maria burning her theater dresses at her home in Milan, which movie seems to suggest was a symbolic gesture of marking the end of her career. How well does the movie do telling the end of her career, although, as you mentioned earlier, her career never really seemed to end. So I feel like I already answered that one.

Sophia Lambton  31:34

Yeah, it’s, this is all very mixed up, because it’s not based it’s it’s taken various elements out of context that have nothing to do with so there’s her vocal decline, and then there’s a whole costume burning thing. So it’s true that she burned her costumes, but it had nothing to do with her vocal decline, and it had nothing to do with the progression, or, on the contrary, the devolution of her career. So Rhea Callis had a very interesting career until 1953 until about the spring of 1953 she was a very, very heavy woman. I don’t know. Did you? Did you know this? Dan, so she was very, very overweight from about the age of 18, 1718, because she wasn’t an overweight teenager at all. Rather, she wasn’t overweight young teenager child. But she then gained a lot of weight, and so she was a very, very heavy woman. And then in about spring of 1953 she realized that she couldn’t carry on that way, because firstly, was just she found it, you know, she was not a very well woman in general, and she found logging around her weight difficult. And she also needed the chin for expression. She was singing the role of Medea in Florence in 1953 conducted by Leonard Bernstein, whom she had personally recruited, having heard him on the radio, and she needed the chin for expression, so she decided to lose weight, and she lost about 95 pounds in the span of 18 months. So that’s a lot, and that’s why there’s been a lot of deliberation. Did that affect her voice? That’s a whole other topic. But just going through her perspective of things when she was overweight, that was also very early on in her career, and she was starring in really tacky opera houses where, I mean, when she was in Sicily, in Palermo, I think it was, maybe it was a Catania, I don’t know, but when she was in Sicily, the opera house actually called her two hours before the performance to remind her she had a performance, and she was so she was outraged by the idea that she had to be reminded she would write to her husband. Can you believe it? This is how well organized they are that apparently their other singers don’t remember their singing tonight. So khaki opera houses, very cheap productions, including very cheap costume, she said, stank of sweat, insinuating that they hadn’t even been washed after their previous wear by the previous hanger. Yeah. The director Lucchino Visconti, who was is most more famous for his films the leopard and Death in Venice, was also an opera director because of her. He actually said, I staged opera for callous, not because of callous, he said for callous. And the first time he saw her was in Wagner’s Parsifal. And he said she was wearing something that looked like a bra and a pillbox hat on her head that kept falling on her nose as she sang. So this was a period of her career, very early on, when she was relegated to wearing tacky stuff. Eventually, she actually asked her husband, menegas mother to supply some costumes, and she would eventually bring some of her own costumes, because she did not like what she was being given when she burnt costumes. It was not the costume shown in this movie, at least, at least what they were implying. She burnt the costumes from what she knew as her overweight period, her tacky period, her I haven’t developed as an artist yet, period. And she talked about Efrain in a French interview in 1965 which is where they got this information from. She said. That the past that I didn’t like that is to say it was before the birth. My birth artistically. So once tastes change, the body changes, one changes artistically. And I’ve read the screenplay of this movie because it came out before the film itself. It was published a deadline, and in the screenplay, it said among it had tags on the costumes, and it included Anna Bolena by Don it SETI. She would never have burnt the Anna Bolena costume because that was a Latino Visconti reduction. That was a gorgeous dress, and she I mean, so this refers to costumes from a completely different era, costumes from a completely different part of her career, where she looked different, she felt different, and she also sang differently. So that’s a whole other topic. But in the early part of her career, she was not as tailored, and she would be over dramatic. She would do vulgar things with the voice, and then she she really wanted to to worship and honor the music, and she tried to doing she really wanted to devote us up to doing exactly what the score required, and not what she would call pyrotechnics. So not fireworks, not, you know, adding a high note just so the audience would be impressed. That’s the costume burning thing. In terms of her vocal decline, that’s a very different subject. So she noticed it as early as about August 1954 when she was recording Verdi’s La forsa del distino in Milan, and she later that night at beefy restaurant, which is the restaurant at La Scala. It’s since been renamed, but it was traditionally known as beefy. She asked the prana, Elizabeth Schwarzkopf, who was also the wife of EMI records producer Walter Lech, to touch her diaphragm, and she performed a high a. She said, Elizabeth, can you ask? Can you teach me how to perform this high a so it doesn’t wobble, because Walter, her husband, Walter, the EMI producer who was overseeing the record la Ford del distino, Walter says mine make him seasick. So even as early as that, when she had lost weight, well, shall we say, about a year that she started to lose she had started to lose weight about a year and a half before. So this was shortly after she lost weight. And that problem became more and more and more prevalent as she got older. But I’m saying older. I mean the first time, you know, in August 1954 this was a 30 year old woman. So she was not old, she wasn’t even middle aged. She was still very young. By january 19, sorry, by March 1959, she was really, really struggling. And the 10 of Ferruccio talevini, who sang with her on her second record of Lucia de Lama more, said she kept singing the same E flat and she kept cracking it when they were recording the the opera she was she tried and tried and she kept cracking the E flat, the top E flat, and she would soon start seeing less and less because of that. Simultaneously, she had been having problems with opera houses, partly on account of her husband, partly on account of the high standards she expected of them. And she had actually said, way back in September 58 she had said, in about a year’s time, I will probably retire, or at least I will sing a lot less because I don’t understand, I don’t understand the purpose of singing in conditions that are not, you know, conditions that are not optimal. She meant the various opera houses that she said wouldn’t, wouldn’t give her enough rehearsals, not just her, but wouldn’t give the company enough rehearsals. She specifically spoke of the met in New York, saying, I’m not the only one dissatisfied with the way they work. You know, for instance, not having enough rehearsals. For instance, introducing me to my baritone and La Traviata a few hours before we have to go on stage to perform it. Giuseppe de Stefano doesn’t sing there. Elizabeth Schwartzkopf doesn’t sing there, and Eileen Farrell doesn’t sing there. So, you know, I’m not the only one dissatisfied. It’s just that the media lights on to me. And then so she was having vocal promissory on 1959 that happened to coincide with the time when her husband left her and she later paired off with an asses. She also had sinusitis, which she said was very bad, because it was like she said, the pus dripped onto my vocal cords and blocked the sound chambers, and I felt like a deaf man who shouts because he can’t hear himself anymore. And she had several hernias, and one of them, she said she she had, well, she had an operation for the sinusitis in December, 1961 she had an operation for the hernia in january 1963 but then she got another hernia. At the same time, she was having terrible problems with blood pressure, because she felt so stressed that by this time when she would perform, her blood pressure would just tank hours before the performance. So at one point, as I mentioned earlier, she had to give a norma with a blood pressure of 70 over 50, and her friend Stella tapos said she could barely walk on stage, but she was going through it because she didn’t want media to say, callus abandons performance. Yeah. Yeah, no, it’s bizarre. It’s really bizarre because actually, even from a tabloid perspective, they could have said callous almost kills herself trying to sing, right? Callus almost faints. But instead of that, it was all about, oh, callus is being a diva. Or in that, you know, in that case, there was some dramatization of her fans in the audience that there were anti callous people or pro callus people, and it was all about their feud.

Sophia Lambton  40:25

But she quite soon realized, by 1964 she was saying that the first hernia, she said, it knocked me out so much I damaged the muscles of my abdomen, which naturally drained my strength and affected my singing apparatus, to which the abdomen and diaphragm are as much apart as the vocal cords. So she had hoped the operation would improve things. Immediately following her operation, in january 1963 she had a tape recorder, and she was listening to herself obsessively, but that didn’t improve things. On the contrary, she got another diaphragm. Sorry, another diaphragm. What? She got another hernia, which was in the diaphragm. She got another hernia, which was in the diaphragm. And by the time her concert tour, which took place, not in this movie, they said, four and a half years, or something, her last performance as part of her concert tour, which was her last performance ever, was in November 74 so it was only two years and 10 months before she died. It was not four and a half years. She was in terrible pain after that because she said, Probably I’m working my diaphragm more and better and it starts kicking. Also, after that performance, she had labyrinth, it’s which is an infection of a labyrinth in the inner ear. She said, I couldn’t stand straight or sit straight for 12 hours, or see or see for nearly 12 hours. So I don’t know why. In this film, they made up something about purple legs. Weird. Because, to be honest, even if they wanted to be ultra dramatic, they could have used this stuff. A lot of it isn’t new to my book, either. It’s it’s been out there for a while. This information,

Dan LeFebvre  42:03

I think it kind of tells a gives an idea of how accurate a movie is when in that in that case, like, she’s telling the story, we don’t even see it on screen. But even saying four and a half years, as opposed to a couple years, like, it’s so easy to change that dialog and make it just a little bit more accurate, but for some reason, they don’t do that. And I mean, unfortunately, there’s movies that do that.

Sophia Lambton  42:29

But bizarrely, in the screenplay, it talks about 19 June, 1959 and it says it introduced the husband, many Guinea, and it says in the screenplay, a man in his 40s, and by that time, he would have been 63, years old. Bizarre, quite bizarre. I don’t get it to say the least, yeah. Well, if

Dan LeFebvre  42:53

we circle back to like when she was telling that story, she was telling it to the Jeffrey Tate character. And there’s another thing I found interesting, because Maria in that specifically says he is not a repetitier. But correct me, if I’m wrong, he actually was, and you had an opportunity to interview him before he passed in 2017 so can you share a little bit more about the real Jeffrey Tate that we don’t get in the movie?

Sophia Lambton  43:19

Yeah, I was really surprised that a film about Marie cows would include a fictional Jeffrey Tate, because Jeffrey Tate worked with her for six weeks of all the collaborators with whom she worked, he worked with her perhaps the least even. I mean, even in her last years. I assume they did that, because first he was English, so they didn’t need to get a French person, you know, I mean, her main vocal, vocal coach then was Janine Rice, who is a lovely, lovely French lady who might my first interviewee, who’s also gone. Now she’s passed away, but I presume they didn’t want to use her, because that would have been a French woman speaking English with with a French accent, even though they spoke French in real life, because calla spoke French, Italian English on Italian, English on Greek. But Jeffrey Tate I in advance of this film, I listened to my interview of him again because I hadn’t in ages. I interviewed him in january 2014, he was a repetitor. He works for the Royal House here in London. He was recruited to work with her, even though Italian music and Italian opera in general wasn’t his specialty. He preferred German music so leader and and operas by Wagner. I think he also preferred Baroque music so callous his favorites of Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti and Verdi were not his specialty, but she was considering singing Cavalier rusticana at the Royal Opera House. Now this was in March 1976 it had nothing to do with the last week or even the last month or even the last year of her life. They only worked together for four to six weeks. He said he was very, very shy with her, and I have to say that when I saw his portrayal in this film, I felt really sorry, not just. For callous, who’s obviously being I don’t know what is going on, because that’s got nothing to do with her. But for Jeffrey Tate, this conductor, he later became a conductor for Jeffrey Tate, whose partner is still alive, as far as I know, and the bizarre realm in which Jeffrey Tate, who came as a very young, very shy, repertor, very scary, scared of this big, you know, big name of callous being portrayed as thomp, I would say, quite arrogant character. They did warm to each other, meaning, he felt free with her. So eventually he said I could treat her as any other normal singer. He I could say Maria, that was flat. Try that again. She was very determined to work hard. He called her extremely nice. Um, he they, he said they didn’t talk about because I deliberately listened to my truth him. They’d never talked about personal stuff. She’s, I mean, occasionally she might mention analysis, but she never said anything specific. And I, I really pushed him on this, you know, are you sure she didn’t say anything specifically on Onassis or Pasolini? You know? And he said, No, no, she we didn’t know each other long enough for that to even occur. We stopped mainly to the mezzo repertoire because her voice was in a really bad way then. And he said she was never harsh, never difficult. He called her again about five to six months after their initial collaboration, asking if she wanted to resume, and she said that she would be back in touch or probably later on. He said, When I called, when I ran her up again, she was extremely nice. So they, typically, they would only work together up in a theater, which was the teaser. Once a week she was allowed access to that theater because the manager, char Dan, had given her access, probably because she had contacts in EMI. Otherwise they worked in her apartment. But it wasn’t as dramatic as as it’s portrayed. And also I still find it weird that he was even, that even a fictional version of him was included in the film.

Dan LeFebvre  47:07

And the way you mentioned it, like they didn’t talk about personal stuff, but in the movie, the impression that I got, I don’t remember the exact line of dialog, but she meant mentioned something about about him, and immediately the Jeffrey Tate character knows who she’s talking about, which implies to me that they have this whole kind of personal connection and background like that she knows that, or he knows that she’s talking about Onassis and all you know, it’s like they start to get very personal very quickly in those discussions in the movie, which implies there’s this whole backstory that wasn’t there in real life. Um,

Sophia Lambton  47:41

well, it was only then so far as everybody who had heard of Marie callus by that point associated her with onas. But I do want to say because obviously I have seen the movie, and it’s definitely not the first instance of a portrayal of Marie callus as saying, oh, Onassis forbade me to sing. That is not only incorrect, but it’s kind of the opposite of the truth. Because when she first began, I would say her friendship with Manassas, because she wasn’t together with him for a while, primarily because, as I mentioned earlier, she really wasn’t interested in romance. She wasn’t a very sexual being. And that’s a whole other subject. But I mean, there are nine separate sources, including callous herself, who attest to the who say something suggests that, strongly suggestive of of the fact that she wasn’t really that much intersex. So when people portray the callous analysis relationship as this big affair, it’s not true. First of all, not because Marie Callis was such a good person. And, I mean, she was, she tried her best to be a good person. But I’m saying it’s not true primarily because she just, she wasn’t interested in that, in that kind of thing. I mean, you know, when she met Onassis, she she later would, remember, I was rather indifferent to him. She wasn’t looking to have an adult an adulterous affair. She wasn’t looking to leave her husband. And even though she and many were having difficulties, she actually what she tried to salvage that marriage. But anyway, going back to Onassis for the moment, he was working with her to try to get her some role at the Monte Carlo opera so she could sing there wherever she wanted. He eventually tried to found a Marie Callis television production company with his friend who Roberto Arias, who was the ambassador, the British ambassador to Panama, also the husband of ballerina Margo Fontaine. But for some reason he was good in finance. So that’s why NASA approached him, because Anas could see Carlos was going through terrible strain, both vocal strain, but also psychological strain as a result of the vocal strain, and he thought performing in a pre recorded environment would be less stressful for her, but she didn’t like that. She always preferred life stage. She didn’t really, she didn’t really like pre recorded anything that much. And Onassis also, it has been multiple times alleged that Onassis did not want her to star in a film of Tosca, but that’s actually the opposite. He was the one working harder than she was on that because she didn’t like the idea of starring in Tosca, but he communicated with Jack Warner of Warner Brothers, so I. Found a letter of him, of his to Jack Warner, that had actually not it’s never been published before, and he communicated with Spyro scurris, the chairman of 20th Century Fox, trying to incentivize callous to do a film of Tosca later on, when their relationship soured. That happened at a time when both he was having terrible bad luck in his business. So he had lost all his stocks in the associated de van de mer, which is this big, big conglomerate in Monaco, which is where he was mostly based. At least his business was based at the time thing. And also his airline, Olympic airways, was making terrible, terrible losses. And actually, council would remember to her friend Surya, who wrote a diary entry about this, he would she would say, he’s so nervous. He’s so frat he, she said, fragile, unstable man. I tell him go and see a doctor about your nerves. He says, It’s not the business of a doctor. And she would complain about that to her friend Leo Lerman as well. She would say, He’s so stubborn, I would tell him he needs to see a doctor because he’s so anxious. He has anxiety. He can’t say I have anxiety. So, you know, you had a situation where they’ve been together already for I mean, I think things were especially going bad, and by the spring of 67 so they’d been together for at least seven and a half, well, about seven years, depending on where you begin to count their relationship. But over seven years, and his career is in the pits, her career is in the pits, and obviously they’re very, very insecure, so she eventually dumped him, because they were tired of each other, and she herself remembered in reference to the relationship, familiarity breeds contempt. He did not forbid her from singing. But what I will admit is that after they split, as you know, three months later, he married Jacqueline Kennedy. She was very hurt, despite the fact that he had tried to call her many, many times, and she had not taken his calls. So I’m not sure how he had told her if she was blanking him all the time, but no, I understand she was hurt. Obviously she was blindsided by this, but she she used a lot of the performative energy she wasn’t using on stage because of her vocal decline, in very long rants about Onassis and some stuff about their arguments was true. Yeah, obviously they in their spots, they said some unpleasant things to each other, but other times she would say stuff like, here we only ever had his friends on the yacht, not my friends. And that was totally untrue, because she had had her best friend of a time, John nawatsu There, the conductor Herbert von Karajan, who actually said he was best friends with Onassis than callus and Onassis actually they had had a spat about Lucia dinamimore and Onassis had actually reconciled them after they hadn’t spoken to each other for a while, and Princess Grace had always been callous friend and Frank, as efrali Callis had friend had been on on the Christina, and so had the conductor, Josh Kretz, one of her favorite conductors, who had rehearsed with her there using the Steinway and Asus had had commissioned to withstand dump the Steinway piano that he had had commissions so the callous could practice on his yacht, withstanding the dump. And I spoke to his step niece, Marilena Patroni colas, who was about 16 the time when she was spending time on the Christina. And she remembered, generally, most people who knew callous of time remembered her practicing on the Christina. Both Marilena, his step niece, and also his and callous physiotherapist COVID espanidou, told me how much Onassis liked castaiva. Told me he liked Bucha. It is true that he wasn’t a big opera fan, but it is completely untrue to say he forbade me from singing because he didn’t do that. Why would he have done that? That’s crazy.

Dan LeFebvre  53:34

Yeah, mentioning him forbidding her to sing, that leads to another question that I have for you about something that’s portrayed in the movie, because in the movie there, it’s implying that her career is over, but she’s still trying to get it back into singing. There’s, I think, a line where she mentioned that her mother made her sing, and then Onassis forbade her to sing, and now she’s finally singing for herself so, but she also mentioned that she wasn’t going to perform for anybody. So the impression that I got just watching the movie was she still wanted to sing, because it was just so deeply ingrained into who she was that maybe she felt lost without being able to sing. Is it true that she was still trying to sing, even if it was not to ever perform on stage?

Sophia Lambton  54:19

Yeah, she sang all the time. And if there’s you know, I have tried resisting speculation about her vocal decline. I do want to resist speculation because, other than the fact that her stomach muscles were damaged, we can’t really say why that was, but I still think she worked too hard, if anything, for her. Have got her own health for the blood pressure that was really low. She herself said, when I’m alone with a score, that’s where I find my true self. But how can one bring paradise to Earth? That’s why I’m also obligated to live another life. So in terms of her mother making her sing, I did touch on that briefly earlier. Her, yes, it’s true. Her mother pushed her from a very from callus, very early years. But Carlos also pushed herself. And then once she was really completely, you know, enslaved to music, she pushed herself really, really, really hard. Late in her life, she did contribute herself a bit because she didn’t know what or whom to blame for her decline. So sometimes she would say, Oh, my mother made me sing. And at other times she would say, manegini made me sing. And you know, I guess you can say that was kind of true, but she was the one making her, making herself sing more than anybody else. So you can’t really attribute all of that to her mother or to maneu. And when she was with an Assa, she was singing less because of her vocal decline. And she there were times when she may have tried to convince herself that at least she had Onassis. And, you know, maybe she’s trying to see this other side of life and in love and relationships. But she was bored. She would she would get bored because, you know, late is 1970 after 1970 so she had left an asset in July 68 and in a 1970 interview, she says, what is there in life if you don’t work, you can only live on work by work, through work, without work. There are only a few sensations, and you can’t live off them. And it’s true, she was really having an identity crisis without the opportunity of performing. Yet she was considering engagements all the time. She was considering them all the time. She would get nervous so throughout all the years, and she was considering engagements, including in 1963 she was considering she was going to do Macbeth, but she didn’t. She was going to do Trevor Tory, but she didn’t. Sorry, Macbeth, I think she was going to do in 59 but she’d be at Macbeth was going to be 59 and then there’s a room about 63 she’s going to do Trevor Tory in 63 but she didn’t. I found correspondence between her and her manager signed a golden ski at the Victoria and Albert news. And Albert Museum here in London, which had bizarrely never been uncovered. Which is quite funny, because he was saying the Victoria Albert Museum is a quite major institution. And gorlinski really detailed what she was considering doing at various points. And there was so much that hadn’t been in the public eye, so she was considering an American tour in 1963 but she was so nervous that at first she’d say, Okay, let’s postpone it, because I’m not ready. And then it would be, well, I know we were going to start in New York with the tour, but can we start in Philadelphia or Washington? Because there’d be, there’ll be too much, but the nerves will be too much in New York, because there’ll be all this publicity in New York. So let’s start at a less, you know, less prestigious city, less visited city, and then eventually would get canceled. So if we actually go to her final performance in November 74 she did consider many things after that, because she stopped at that point. I mentioned she had LeBron. She had terrible pain from her hernia, and she she was diagnosed with labyrinth. It’s an infection of the inner ear. But her partner both actually at that point in life and in the concert tour, Giuseppe Di Stefano continued with the accompanist Robert Sutherland. They went on to perform in Australia. When she returned to Paris, she was going to do Tosca with him. She was planning it for a very long time, but eventually she sang the second act in front of her friend, the costume designer Umberto tirelli The teata del opera in Rome in May or June, 75 she saw he wasn’t very impressed, and she thought, I’m I’m not up for this. There was a rumor she was going to sing with the Pasadena Symphony Orchestra in LA in January, 76 and then in March 76 Jeffrey Tate visited her to practice for a potential Cavalier ruscana at the Royal Opera House. She never did. She was practicing with her vocal coach, Janine rice, the role of Charlotte in basnes vertell. She was hoping to do a recording of this opera she had never fully performed before. She recorded, it’s a letter Aria. It’s an air delet a letter ARIA for a compilation album. But she had never recorded the full opera Verde, and she really wanted to do that. She was working on that two days before her death, and her vocal coach, Janine Weiss, traveled to New York for some work, I think, with Herbert von carrion, carrying luggage full of scores, full of opera scores. And when she arrived at the airport, a porter took the luggage and said, Oh, you’ve got a really heavy suitcase. Are you in fashion? Because he thought maybe she was carrying fur coats, I guess, or something, or outfits. She said, No, I’m an opera you know, these are schools. And he said, Oh, did you know a very famous opera singer died today? And she was she said, No, who was that? And she and he said, Marie Callis and Janine rice learnt about the death of her friend and student from a porter at an airport. You know, people really shocked, because, as I mentioned earlier, yes, she was definitely less social than she hadn’t previously. She was definitely extremely dismal. And Jeffrey Tate did tell me that her attitude, although she he said he did want to precise. She didn’t run people down. She ran the whole world down. So she had that, you know, attitude of an older person. Everything’s changed. Nothing is good anymore. But she didn’t, she didn’t run people down. She didn’t say, oh, remember him. He was terrible. She didn’t do that. He said she had. She felt like a 79 or 80 year old woman. In how completely dispirited she felt, but she was in touch with various people up to the day of her death, so she did not close herself up away from everybody else. She was singing. She wanted to sing and but her most horrifying thing was how her voice just got worse and worse, despite her continuous attempts to improve it.

Dan LeFebvre  1:00:27

Yeah, yeah. Well, like you said, like the I think what’s life without work? I mean, I feel like that’s a any, anybody who is a workaholic, and you know, focus is so hard, and you have to do that, to get to the level that she was. But I think that’s it’s it’s normal to to do that, and then with on top of all the all these medical things that you know, she’s just still pushing herself, despite that, I can see how it can be very it’s got to be so disheartening, because you you remember the way you were, but your body just isn’t able to do that anymore, and so you just want to keep pushing harder and keep practicing and keep doing that. But it sounds like that was her body failing her in ways like that, even though she’s, you know, keep pushing. Yeah. Well, a moment ago, I mentioned with Maria feeling lost, but in the movie, there are some flashbacks that we get that give another indication that maybe there’s something else that makes her feel lost, beyond the ability to perform on stage. And specifically, there is a flashback that we see with a room with Maria, her sister and her mother. There’s two soldiers that enter the room wearing Nazi uniforms, Maria and her sister are forced to sing for the soldiers they pay her mother for that private performance. And in the movie, Maria mentions that’s where it all began. And I’m assuming that that’s talking about kind of her mother forcing her to sing, and that kind of career starting, there was that a moment where she started performing first.

Sophia Lambton  1:02:04

No, not at all, not at all. She started performing first when her mother entered her into radio contest back in New York, and she didn’t win any of them, but she got some kind of compensatory prize. I don’t think, I don’t think she actually said if it was second prize or third prize. She won a Bulava with wristwatch because Jack Benny. Do you know Jack Benny? Yeah, Jack Benny was one of the judges, right? Well, Jack Benny was in the judges, and he apparently voted for her, but, but not many of the others did. So he she won some kind of runner up prize, and she never forgot that Jack Benny had been partly responsible for her winning a bit of a wristwatch at a radio contest when she was 11 years old. But the first role she sang she sang at the age of 15, and that was Dan Tutsi Cana. That’s the same opera that she was hoping to sing when practicing with Jeffrey Tade in 1976 she made her professional debut on July 4, 1938 in a celebration of the American Independence Day in Athens. And she, back then, would have been 14, yeah. July 38 she was 14 Yeah. She signed her first professional contract with a National Theater the age of 16, and she was given just a swarm of chain for performances. By the age of 18, she was seeing Tosca in a professional production. So she spent the war earning, you can’t really call it money. She was pretty much earning food as a result of performance. She now evangelio was, it is true, she was a very unsympathetic, negligent woman. She wasn’t really much of a parent at all. Later on, she had various psychological problems. She wanted her daughters to get money any which way. That’s true, but she did not ask them to prostitute themselves at all. I mean, how could she even have what she did, what she would say? Well, you know, socialize with the soldiers, meaning, go get food, not not become I mean, obviously we’re looking at a very extreme context when a lot of people did things so they would never have done ordinarily for their own survival. But thankfully, callous did not have to sleep with anybody to get money or food. The only thing she ever mentioned about her mother trying to set her and Jackie up in that context was that her mother made her go out with a German soldier, and Carlos was so anguish, she started crying, and the German soldier took pity on her and gave her, I think, some spaghetti anyway, or some of some food. Other than that, I’d like to mention what she actually did do in the war, other than performing. And I mean, she really became a team player during wartime. I’m sure she was one before, but that really war time is obviously a very, very extreme, especially in Athens, first during World War Two, then during their civil war, she would hike for miles and miles, not hike, but walk rather. Maybe she did hike as well. I don’t know. I would imagine. Well, Athens is quite hilly, but anyway, what I mean is she would walk for. Miles and miles to get cabbage leaves and tomatoes for herself or her family for her colleagues, she would barter the complimentary opera ticket she had at the National Theater, both hers and her colleagues for food for herself and for the company. She persuaded some kind of anti Nazi to sign a food warrant for the company, because they were being paid in food, but they were being paid something like less than a meal a day. So she went through a very, very hard time, but she did not have any kind of childhood trauma from any kind of sexual abuse, thankfully, thankfully, because I think her childhood was hard enough. No, I I’m pretty sure she was a virgin up to, actually, when she met manygini, which would have been much later, when she was 20. I mean, I’m, I can’t for sure say when Cal’s lost a virginity, but she it wasn’t in Athens. And also, as I mentioned earlier, yeah, she wasn’t particularly interested in sex. And she was actually 18 years old, the first time she had she heard of how babies were born, meaning the first time she realized what reproduction is, as in, she found out because no one had told her. No one had told her. This is Athens wartime. There isn’t a TV. She’s not going to hear about stuff on the radio at that point, you know who’s going to tell her? She could only have learned on her own experience and had. The flirtation she had with men at that time didn’t really amount to much, so all three men who were in close proximity to her. There was a Greek businessman, tech is cigars. There’s a British soldier, Ray Morgan, and there was a doctor called elusive testus. He was more like a father figure. All three men commented, not to me, because they they died. I think all of them, maybe Ray Morgan is still alive, but they told the boba for Nicholas, but Salus the omidys, back in the late 90s, mid to late 90s, how she really didn’t have much interest in physical intimacy. She did she perform for the Germans? Well, she she performed for the Germans because the whole company was performing in front of the Germans. But she and Jackie never performed. I never, I don’t remember ever reading about her and Jackie singing together. Now, Jackie didn’t want to be an opera sing. That’s true. And to begin with, evangelio was trying to push Jackie into a career, but when Evan Jenny understood that Maria was the real singer, she kind of forgot all about Jackie’s abilities. Jackie, meanwhile, was doing perfectly fine, not perfectly fine. That’s badly put. Jackie was okay, relatively because she had hooked up with a guy called Milton empiricus, who really helped both Jackie and Maria and the whole family in terms of food provisions and supplies during the war. I don’t remember why, but he had some connections, so that helped so she didn’t have to go out and prostitute herself. And that’s that’s just a big fabrication that’s based on the fact that, yeah, at one point, Maria mentioned, my mother asked me to go out with a German Sultan, but not to, I don’t think even evangelio would have specified sleep with a German soldier. I don’t think she would have even said that. Um, so, I mean, there is an interesting moment from the period when the was the Greek, like, who was the Greek Air Force, or they were asked, yeah. Members of the Greek Air Force asked Evangelia and Jackie Henri, who all lived in the same apartment on petition Street, to hide two British members of the Air Force, John Atkinson and some man called Robert. And they did. And then at some point, when Italian soldiers barged in, they wanted to inspect the apartment, and in order to distract them, Maria sat down and played on the piano and started to sing to distract them from the search. So there were definitely really horrible moments. There were definitely close calls, but, and she did say, she did say they were very, very sad war years, and it was hard for her to talk to them, but she also said I was in no way harassed by the Germans. She said this in an interview to the German magazine de spigo in 1957 think 57 she said I was in no way harassed by the Germans, even though I had an American passport. And at another point she said, Well, it was hard, but hardship does one good. Now, of course, she went through very difficult times. She went through harder times during the civil war in Athens. Now, the Civil War was between homes. Get this wrong, the National Liberation Army, the National Liberation Front, sorry, the National Liberation Front and the Greek People’s Liberation Army. The National Liberation Front was a resistance group. The Greek People’s Liberation Army was a group of communists. So the Greek People’s Liberation Army were the communists known as the reds, the National Liberation Front, when they were known as the whites, and they were supported by the British, by the Allied Forces. She lived in the red zone, so the danger zone, and then she began work at the British headquarters, where she was in charge of distributing secret mail. And they were in the white zone, so she had to make this very dangerous journey every day to work to earn some money. Meanwhile, Jackie got a job translating film titles from Greek into English. I assume vice versa. So they were, they were very, very difficult years for them. But cars also continued performing. She sang Fidelio. Uh, in Greek. Isn’t Greek. I’m blanking here. It couldn’t have been in German, because she never sang in German. I’m pretty sure it was in Greek, um, and she sang Tosca. And at one point in July 43 she actually double booked herself, by accident. She had a concert, and then she had a Tosca. So she had, she sang arias from Han or Rossini and your son, Milan Chela, from Chile’s Adrian le COVID, at a theater on in the customers through she sang at the customers through theater. Then she ran through wartime Athens to clafuna square to enter as Tosca just in time for when Tosca enters opera. Boss, listening will know this, Mario, Mario, Mario. And she got there just in time. So not at the start of the opera, but at toss was entrance. So yes, they were very, very painful years. But I don’t think she suffered from childhood trauma from that. I think if anything, she felt obviously she was forever traumatized by the fact that her mother didn’t love her. That was horrible. And those problems persisted into her later life, she had troubles with her sister as well, and even her father let her down eventually. And this was all terrible, and that was why, you know, I mentioned at the start, I think, or earlier on, she married a man who was 28 years a senior. He was not attractive, he was quite overweight, he was bald. He didn’t like opera either. He actually fell asleep sitting at her studio recording of Norma in 1954 one of the most famous records ever, including her signature, Aria Casta Diva, which today, I think, is used, still used in the Jean Paul Gaultier ad and he fell asleep. But she needed a father figure, and in her pursuit of a career. Obviously, she had traveled, you know, she went from Athens back to New York and then to Italy. She didn’t know that many people. She didn’t have a best friend, her mother. She was still in touch with her mother when she came to Italy. She was still trying to, you know, trying to preserve that relationship, but she always had doubts about her mother’s love, and she marries this guy who ends up actually being terrible for her and terrible for her and terrible for her reputation

Dan LeFebvre  1:12:04

as well. Yeah. Well, speaking of her family, that we do see little bits and pieces with her family in the movie, with her mother, like I mentioned that flashback, we only really see her in the negative flashback. So the impression I get with Maria’s relationship with her mother was not a good one. I think there’s a line of dialog in the movie where she talks about remembering the day that she finally told her mother to off, but she’s still in contact with her sister, because we see her in the movie and then the only mention of her father. There’s a scene where she’s talking with JFK and her father, or JFK talks about the father she never had. Do you think the movie did a decent job portraying the relationship between Maria and her family.

Sophia Lambton  1:12:44

Well, first of all, I’d like to say that Maria Kellis would never tell anybody to f off, because she was a goody goody who actually couldn’t stand cursing. She couldn’t stand cursing. And when, when the director, Lucchino Visconti, would swear during the rehearsals, it turned her stomach, because that’s what Houseman menaghini said. And in this regard, I think this regard, I think he was, he was probably telling the truth. Also, Richard Burton mentioned in his diary how, because Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor were friends with her, she was at their place, and Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton and his niece Caroline, were playing Gin Rummy, uh, Elizabeth Taylor said at one point and callous was aghast. And according to Richard Burton, she said, Oh no, I’ve never heard such words. Never heard such things. And he and Elizabeth Taylor were very surprised that she was so surprised herself. So I really dislike that, because she would have hated that. And you know, there’s been a lot of Fictional portrayals of her, there’s been, there have been a lot of inaccurate biographies, but very few have actually portrayed her as being somebody who curses. Because everyone, not everyone, of course, not everyone. But very many people know that that was not the case. So with Evangelia, there are three, obviously. Do you have three members of her nuclear family? You have Evangelia, her mother? Oh, Evangelia was a very difficult person. It wasn’t clear in the movie at all why there was a discordance between them. Um, so Evangelia, obviously, as I’ve said, really wanted to milk callous, also Jackie, but more, most of all, callus, because she was the one with the talent. Financially. Evangelio was an entrepreneurial woman. She wanted her daughter to be making lots of money, and she wanted her share of that money. Um, money. So they had difficulties, because evangelio would say, Oh, I have no money. Give me money. Carlos would give her money. And then Carl would find $1,000 under her mattress, which, at the time was a really huge amount of money. In 1950 you know, massive amounts of money, really. And not only that, it wasn’t just that evangelio was kind of black beating her. So she’d say, I’m going to tell you a secret about your father, because obviously Evangelia and George have even separated one very acromis terms. She was saying nasty things about George. She eventually wrote such a horrible letter that callus didn’t even want to share it with her husband, many Guinea. This was in about October 1950 when callous would have been 26 Greeks. She didn’t even want to share with Nagini. It was obviously written in Greek, and many Gini didn’t speak Greek or English, so he had that Greek letter translated into a talent, and she was so hurt by the many Guinea she couldn’t even reply. And many Gini replied. He wrote an Italian took his own letter to a Greek translator, and he said the letter was malicious, vindictive and offensive cannot be written. Those things cannot be written by good mother. So basically, she would just make really she would say really horrible things. I think the only thing in the movie, I believe this was said that actually was accurate, was that evangelist did at one point say, I brought you into the world to sustain me and your sister, so to financially maintain me and your sister, she did say something along those lines. At one point, callus just could not suffer that relationship, so she broke off contact. But she did actually financially support Evangelii and her sister Jackie, on and off until her death, because the because Evangelia was didn’t want to work when she did try working out, I need to try various things. She was trying to use the callous name as much as possible to make money. She went on the balls talk show, I think, talking about how, what an in grade her daughter was, she told lies to the press. And at one point, Keller said, at one point, the government, the New York, I think, Department of, I don’t remember what taxation now can be taxation, the New York Department of something, contacted Maria and said, your mother, you know, don’t have any money, so she had to send money over. But that was really painful. It was really painful relationship, because she understood quite not too early on, but she understood she was not particularly loved. Um, neither was Jackie, really. But going on to George for the moment, the father, who I don’t think was her father, mentioned in this fictional movie at all

Dan LeFebvre  1:17:01

the only, the only mention that I that I not by name, but JFK mentions a father who wasn’t there because he has all these CIA agents that found out about Maria. But that’s the only mention that I I remember in the movie. Totally

Sophia Lambton  1:17:15

bizarre, because Maria counts banning you. Met him. Met John F Kennedy once, and that was at the Madison Square Garden birthday celebration. Met him once publicly. It’s just an entirely fictional thing in this film. JFK would never have spoken on a personal level to Maria, not on that level. At least they barely knew

Dan LeFebvre  1:17:32

it seems, truly seems par for the course for this movie so far to make up fictional things.

Sophia Lambton  1:17:35

Yeah, but the going this far, I didn’t understand. I thought maybe it was trying to be a tongue in cheek thing or something. But why on earth John of Kent? Why on earth John F Kennedy, who had to be, to be to put in Marley, had bigger fish to fry, as we say in the UK, than concerning himself with Murray Callis life. But anyway, George the father was more kind of indolent and not really bothering. So he cared on some level for the girls, but he took long business trips, and he actually openly said that he preferred it that way, because he could be away from their mother. As I mentioned, evangelist took Maria and Jackie to Athens when Maria was 13, she wouldn’t see George until she would be 21 back in New York, and she did sustain a relationship with him. He came to see her sing several times in January, 1959 he saw her sing. He came to see him epidurals at the epidurals festival in August 1960 so they were on good terms. But then eventually he got ill, and she was happy to she was happy to foot his medical bills. But at some point his next wife, he married, he remarried. He remarried, a woman called Alexandra, Papa John and her family started bothering Rhea for money. And then Rhea started hearing from other people that George was going around Athens saying his daughter, his famous singer, daughter, was supporting him. And that really, really hurt her. So she cut herself from that. She cut herself off from that as well. There was just a lot of pain. I’m not saying maybe, maybe she could have made more than effort with her father, but having heard an issue with him, myself for the high Garden Show for NBC, high garden show from 1957 when he gets growth his daughter’s birthday is wrong. I don’t think you know being, I don’t think being on very good terms with him when he was demanding money as well, reminding Maria of her mother when she thought she could trust him, she actually ended up saying he has betrayed me even, perhaps even worse than my mother, because I think she was accustomed to who her mother was, but she’d been on such good terms with her father for years, he’d come to her performances, and Now it turns out he’s also bitching about her to other people. She was really hurt by that. Jackie is a bit her sister Jackie, that relationship is a bit more nebulous in that. The thing is, she tried to make contact with her sister Jackie, but Jackie was kind of on Evangelii side. And, you know, but we need money, and you’re making money. It’s. So she did sustain contact with her at a time when she wasn’t in contact with Jackie, the last time she sorry the other way, at a time when she wasn’t in contact with her mother, evangelio, she was still in contact with Jackie, on and off. The last time she ever saw her sister Jackie was in september 1960 so it was a long time before her death. It was 17 years before death. It is not entirely certain if it was september 1960 or 1961 because Jackie herself mistakenly referred to callous performances of Norma and Medea at Epidaurus taking place in the same summer, when they took place in different summers, 60 and 61 so I don’t know if it was September 60 or September 61 but it was one of those years, 16 to 17 years before her death, that was the last time they met face to face. She later no before that, she had way before that, November 1950 she had written to her godfather. As for my sister, I’ve tried to do my best, but that has only brought me insults. I don’t know what exactly she meant by that, but obviously it was difficult with Jackie as well. And then I get a very poor impression of Jackie from her own book, which is very nasty in that there’s a lot of bitterness about, you know, I wanted to be a singer too. If my life had been different, I would have been a great singer, like callous two. Jackie couldn’t, could sing a little bit she, there’s a recording of her, maybe still on YouTube. She gave an interview to a Marie callous fan club that was recorded in 1992 on videotape, and it was on YouTube. I don’t know if it still is. It probably is so and that during that interview, she played a recording herself singing in her youth. She did not have a great voice. She was never going to make a great, great career as an opera singer. She might have, if she had wanted, she might have made a bit of money singing at various, you know, restaurant venues, but this was not the voice of a great singer, so she had a lot of resentment against Maria. They were back in touch. After they were back in they came back into contact when George, the father, died in December 1972 so this would have been four years, nine months before Council’s death. And then they were on and off in contact, on the phone a little bit, and it is true that callus asked her to send mandrax pills from Athens because they were no longer in the mark on the market in France because she needed them to sleep. But there was nothing as dramatic as portrayed in the film. They never did meet up anytime after 60 or 61

Dan LeFebvre  1:22:17

okay, I’m sensing a kind of a trend with a lot of Maria’s relationships between her mother, who is saying things, you know, you mentioned going on a talk show and saying things about her, her father, even her first husband, you know, the manager who was saying things, did she have somebody that she could rely on throughout her life at all? It seems like everybody’s almost using her and trying to get money out of her, or whatever their purposes are, and then slandering her behind her back. Yeah,

Sophia Lambton  1:22:49

you make a really good point. Unfortunately, that really feels like the case. I haven’t even mentioned her longtime best friend, Joanna lomazzi, who wrote a series of articles in 1961 for an Italian magazine called La setsimana income about callous private life. Now, these articles are very useful to me because they came from the period, and I think she wasn’t lying, but she was outing the private life of her best friend for money. Wait, you know which was which was terrible. And then she was very surprised that after that, callus wasn’t much in contact with her, although she did actually write to her several years later. Yeah, so on one hand, callus was very unfortunate when it came to a lot of people, that’s true, but she had some good friends. They were just not, they were not part of her closest, most intimate circle. I mean, she had a lot of good colleagues. When I was interviewing various people, they said such lovely things. Janine Rice was just amazing. She was such a dear, dear woman. When I interviewed Fabrizio Milano, who is still an opera director, he was the assistant to her when she and Giuseppe Stefano stage ver dive siciliani in Turin in 1970 three. At the end, after I interviewed, when I was leaving, he said, I really hope you write your book Sophia, because she was just such a wonderful woman and and I said, I know, I know. So she did have people who cared about her, but in terms of her closest relationships, yeah, yeah, she had bad luck. I will say, though, Onassis, in this regard, was by far the best person she had in her life. Because let me tell you about the things Onassis didn’t do analysis, didn’t love about her to the press at all, and at one point he actually said, because they had, they had a lawsuit against someone else who unfortunately let them down, rather the other way. Their dear friend panagivgoti sued them from a misunderstanding because he and Onassis had had bought Ray callus, a freighter, a ship called the artemision in 1965 and he and Anastas had an argument over how many shares he owned, versus Onassis owned, versus callous owned a. Eventually he sued, callous analysis, and then they and then, I always get confused about this, because, to be honest, is such a boring story. But anyway, there was they won, that lost, or they sued. No sorry, they had to sue him because he wasn’t handing over his shares. And it was afraid, and it was, it was a sorry story. Uh, but analysis during this lawsuit in in a London court said madam callus is not a vehicle for me to drive. She has her own brakes and her own brains. Uh, it’s very sad that it’s very sad that the media has portrayed him as believing the opposite. Um, he I mean, they stayed friends until the end. They did. They did not resume. It’s been what, it’s been quite widely reported, that they resume the romantic relationship after he married Jack and Kennedy. That is not true. He tried with her, but she wasn’t having it. As I mentioned before, she was not a very sexual woman. So I and also, by that time, you know, she was 40, so Okay, she wasn’t that old. She was 40. She was 44 when they split up. Okay, but as I mentioned, she wasn’t a very sexual woman. I don’t think she was going to have a sexual relationship with Manassas when he was married to Japanese I think she was tired of that relationship. I think she said it herself, many attributes contempt, and she did it also say to Stella Scott topless, uh, my relationship with NASA. So my affair with the NASA was, you know, did not end well, but my friendship with him was a great success. So they were much better when they were on the phone to each other. And, you know, these very independent individuals. I would also like to mention, because this never gets mentioned, they did not live together, which means that about half of the year they were kind of in a long distance relationship. So you’re talking about two individuals very focused on their careers. It’s quite a boring relationship, to be honest. And I say this as someone who I I’m also a novelist. I have a lifelong absolute fascination in relationships. I’ve made it my mission to seek out the most fascinating romantic relationships out there. This is not one of them at all. So I, when I went into my research years and years ago, I thought it was more interesting. No, no. Anyway, he they were in contact until his death, even though she was with Giuseppe Stefano. So he was quite Yeah, okay, it is true, he did cheat on her. He had various flings during the relationship, but she knew about that, and she also, in retrospect, talked about, okay, well, that was the way he was. She was, you know, she did not get broken by this. She was not broken by that. What others did is was far worse than anything Onassis did to her. There’s,

Dan LeFebvre  1:27:43

there’s a point in the movie where she kind of mentioned, I think it’s on when Onassis is on his deathbed, he calls her in and she talks about how when he married Jackie Kennedy, that he she wasn’t heartbroken, but she had her pride hurt. Do you think the movie did a good job portraying the relationship between Maria and Onassis.

Sophia Lambton  1:28:04

Well, I couldn’t I know, because any, any movie that alleges Onassis forbade her to sing is already completely overturning the representation of that relationship. Also any movie that has a fictional Maria Callas saying I did not want to go on the cruise because I knew, I knew what would happen. You know, in that melodramatic soap opera, soap opera kind of worse than Douglas Sirk, kind of tone, that isn’t what happened. Because, actually, she didn’t want to go because she didn’t want to go on the cruise. Her husband wanted them to go on the cruise because he thought they would make advantageous business contacts on the cruise. It was all about, oh, yeah, we need to meet. People need to network. I mean, I don’t think the term networking wasn’t used back then, but that would have that was what he would have said today. This was a time when he was making her sing, even though she was ill. And yeah, on that cruise in July to August, 59 Carl, Foreman producer, came and wanted to do, wanted her to do guns and Navarre, and she didn’t want to do it. A German producer came and want, no, I didn’t think a German producer came. But many Guinea was considering an offer from a German producer, producer for her to start as the leading lady in the Prima Donna, a German film that was going to be distributed by some big distributor called Gloria FinFET. Her fee would be 200 million lira, which is around $320,000 then, so about 303,300,000 today, or something, he would tell her land, land is what matters. And she did not agree with him at the same time, yes, Onassis was flirting with her. Of course he was flirting with her. She was beautiful one. She’s a beautiful woman. He liked women. We know that. Yeah, he liked women. I don’t think he had a big plan to seduce her, to be honest, because I don’t think he really was the kind who fell desperately in love like that, at least that quickly. I. Um, he was flirting with her me. Probably he was hoping that she would she and her husband would separate, but she had no idea. And um, eventually they disembarked that cruise on the 11th of August, 1959 for two weeks, she tried to assuage many Guinea’s resentment, because he was now saying, You’re cheating on me, or she wasn’t, and he, but he was primarily really angry. What has, what has spurred his anger about that which was untrue, what had, what had strengthened his suspicion was the fact that she was saying, I want to be my own manager. I want to manage my career after she had discovered he had invested primarily her money, because he was only her manager at this point. So she was making the earnings. You know, he was a manager. She was making the money. He had abandoned his own business, which was a brick making factory that had 12 plants across Italy. He had abandoned that. He was a family business. He had left it to his brothers. He had 11 brothers, and he had abandoned that. It was 11 brothers, 11 siblings. So I’d always get it up anyway. He was one of 12, one of 12 siblings. He’d left it to his brothers to become her manager, and now she was saying, I want to be my manager. He was really pissed off at this. Really pissed off. And furthermore, he didn’t remember. He didn’t speak English, he didn’t speak Greek, he didn’t speak French, and NASA spoke all of those languages, plus some others. He didn’t know what marinas was saying. He could tell that the other guests on the ship, including Churchill and his daughter and his granddaughter, were gossiping, saying, oh, counselor NASA, you know, really getting on? Well, that really enraged him, and eventually he started a rumor that they were having an affair, and he actually created a fake diary. He took letterheaded paper from their apartment in Milan and just wrote random dates on it in pen. And, you know, as though it could be a diary writing total untruths on it. And in July, 1960 CALS wrote a letter to her legal separation lawyer Augusto Calis calcini, which I found. I should also add, the reason why I say legal separation lawyer is because Italy did not have divorce at that time, divorce would be illegal in Italy until the end of 1970 In fact, one of the very first divorces granted. In fact, I believe the first divorce granted in Brescia, in the region of Brescia, was Maria Callas divorce finally, long after she had dumped Onassis, she finally could get divorced from many Guinea up to that point, they were legally separated, which means that the assets were divided between them. She would always say, Oh, he he went. She would put it differently, so I’m not exactly sure what the arrangement was, but in one letter, she’d say, mengini got half of my money, and another one, she’d say he got two thirds of my money. So he obviously got more than he was entitled to. But yeah, I was saying in a letter, 31st of July, 1960 she writes to her legal separation lawyer Augusto Carlos, or Augusto calzi cascalchini, saying, can you tell me again? His lawyer BME to tell him to put a muzzle on and stop lying to the press with that made up story about Onassis. She underlines, made up in Italian itstoria, invent data. And she underlines invent data, meaning he is telling the press on NASA and I have were having an affair. Now by that by that time, she and analysis were in a relationship, but they hadn’t been having an affair back then, which is why she’s saying Madoff story about analysis. She says, If he doesn’t, next time I meet with him, I will take a tape recorder to the meeting to get proof that he is lying. So, you know, talk about having nothing to hide in that regard, I think that the Cal Sanas relationship was primarily founded on two very strong individuals, self made individuals of Greek descent. I don’t think that was very important for Maria, because Maria had been born in America. She ended up dying in France, and actually her her primary language changed throughout the years. So, you know, it was typically English. But then I think she found Italian easier by the time she lived in Italy for a while, and then when she was in France, French really became her first language. So she did not really relate that closely to her Greek roots. She didn’t even speak Greek well until she had been living in Atlas for a while. So I don’t think Evangelion George even spoke Greek that much to her and Jackie when they were growing up in their early years. But Onassis really admired mariekes. He loved hearing about how she had, you know, walked for miles to get cabbage leaves and tomatoes for her colleagues in wartime. He himself was a very, very tenacious, strong man. He had freed his father from a Turkish prison. I think that the year, I think, yeah, 1923 the Henri cows, was born before she was born, Onassis was a 16 year old man, uh, bribing a Turkish official so he could sneak into the prison where his father was imprisoned because Turkey had captured Smyrna, which is where Onassis was born. Smyrna is now is near in Turkey, but back then, I presume it belonged to Paris or Cyprus. Sorry, my history is not great, but anyway, his father was in Turkish prison. And he snuck him out. He freed his sisters. I don’t remember the political details, but he was a very tenacious, strong man. Um, they didn’t marry because she, first of all, was married. This isn’t really mentioned enough. She was married now in March 1966 she went to the Greek Embassy in Paris because Greece had passed a law invalidating all marriages of Greek citizens from 1945 onwards, and that would make her a single woman, According to Greek law, but if she wanted to return to Italy to perform or even for a rehearsal or for a meeting with a friend, yep, so let’s say if she’d married Onassis, she would still be charged with bigamy in Italy. So she could have married Onassis and risk and never, never turned to Italy again. That would have been very difficult, considering most of her career had taken place there. And even though she was in having a vocal decline, she was come to Italy quite frequently. Her dressmaker, Biki, lived in Italy. A lot of her friends lived in Italy. And I, and I presume she wanted and she would perform there again, actually in her concert tour, but actually only in a pub, in private little performance, because she was so scared of the Italian press. Um, but she also, she did consider marrying him. They do consider marriage, but they would have arguments, and eventually she ended up saying, well actually, during the relationship, she told a journalist, once you’re married, the man takes you for granted, and I do not want to be told what to do. My own instincts and conviction, my own instinct and convictions tell me what I should or should not do. These convictions may be right or wrong, but they are mine, and I have the courage to stand up for what I believe. So, yeah, they didn’t marry but I think that’s good. I don’t think they would have been a good married couple.

Dan LeFebvre  1:36:48

Well, it sounds like too I mean, like you were saying, since a lot of it was long distance and they were both focused on their careers, that maybe marriage just didn’t make sense. But they could still have, I mean, if she saw him as a still a good friend, then, you know, that’s what was important to her.

Sophia Lambton  1:37:10

Yeah. I mean, they were lovers for sure, during Yeah, you know, I don’t, obviously, I can’t tell you the first time I slept together, I, I don’t have that information, but I imagine it would have been about the spring of 1960 knowing how slow and and also something that I hope listeners, I hope Khalistan to understand. When menage, he dumped her, she was shocked beyond belief. She had been with him for 12 years. He had been the only really close person a lot. He had defended her when things were tough with her mother, he had defended her before all prepper house managers that were tough, you know, it’s true, but he had actually managed to soil her reputation, willingly or not, as a result of trying to drive up publicity. So the callous ticket sales would be higher prices, so callous would get a higher salary, so he would get his own car, you know. But, um, she saw him as the only person in her life, bringing with the end, close person. She was utterly horrified, and she’s wrote on the same day. She wrote that letter to Augusto goddess. Can she in search for July 1960 wrote to Herbert Weinstock, I think, yeah, who was a music critic and a friend of hers, saying, I have been, I have spent the time licking my wounds, not caused by any third party, meaning, you know, it’s not to do with on assets. I have been heard meaning by my husband. And she would write about that a lot to friends. She told her friends a lot about that. But no, they were eventually, of course, eventually, they were lovers for a time, but she dumped him, and the Jacqueline Kennedy marriage was a business thing for him, which, in return, in turn, to Jacqueline Kennedy, assured protection, obviously, financial resources, privacy, because there was a Christine of those Onassis Island, Scorpios, which she needed. So that was a business deal, basically not, I don’t know if you can call it a business deal, but it was a quid pro quo arrangement that was not founded on love.

Dan LeFebvre  1:39:09

That makes sense. I think there’s a in the movie Onassis says something like, you find yourself not doing anything one day and you get married, or something like that. When he talks about Jackie, which implied to me that it was not not for love the way it seemed to be between Maria and Onassis, like they seemed like they actually cared about each other.

Sophia Lambton  1:39:29

Oh, yeah. No, I will. I will, however, admit that Onassis had considered this marriage to Jack and Kenny for a while, probably, probably as early as during his relationship with Marie cows, but she did help dump him first. Okay, so we don’t know what would have happened if they had stayed together. I doubt he would have married Jack and Kennedy one day if they had been in a relationship. Okay? He knew what he was doing. It was very I guess it was quite arranged, pre arranged. It were premeditated things. So that’s, you know, the movie. Quote sounds like something more random. It wasn’t random. He had to further his interests his stock. I’m not a specialist in narcissist stock. I wanted to know what all of this was from Rick House’s perspective. You know what happened to his stock? I don’t know or care particularly, but I do know that obviously that marriage was a shock to her. She was hurt by it. She didn’t learn about it from the newspapers, or at least that’s not what her hairdresser, Frederic somoli later told a reporter years after her death, he said he was with her when she first heard about it on the radio. I think she may have used the term newspapers more loosely to apply to the media, or she may have heard about the newspapers before the radio, and then just burst into tears hearing it again. I don’t know, but she was the middle of, she was preparing for a photo shoot with her stylist, Frederic simoli, in Paris, when she heard about it, and, yeah, she also obviously devastated, and obviously she was being humiliated publicly because she was, you know, this is she was not living in an Instagram time. Even if she had been, I doubt she had. I doubt she would have been the kind of celebrity to post on Instagram. So, you know, Ari and I partiston, I parted ways yesterday. This is not who Mary was. So people did not know that she had dumped him, except for her friends. In fact, actually written. Burton wrote it in his diary, and his diaries have been published, and other friends knew, but the public did not know. So of course, the headline was, and unfortunately, the headline still is on NASA’s dumps callous for Jap and kemby, which was not true.

Dan LeFebvre  1:41:35

It sounds like going back to some of the media and the way they portrayed her, with her performances and her health and things like that, they were going they, I think you said it best, not clickbait back then, but same sort of, you know, titles and things like that to try to gain readership and stuff like that. And unfortunately, it seems like that was not in favor of the truth for what actually happened.

Sophia Lambton  1:41:59

I also wanted to mention I wasn’t able to find out. I’m not sure if anyone actually knows, sure if she did visit him on his deathbed. The hospital in this movie is so weird, because I know what it’s supposed to be. It’s supposed to be the American Hospital in Noyes in Paris. And the hospital, as portrayed in this movie, it looks like some weird, fancy parking lot. I don’t know anything is very empty.

Dan LeFebvre  1:42:26

It does look like a parking garage.

Sophia Lambton  1:42:30

Yeah, bizarre. But anyway, I don’t know if they spoke to each other. When he was on his best deathbed. It was a huge risk for her to appear there, given that Jack and Kennedy was often there, the press were often there. I know she received reports about his condition from Vassar javezzi, who was a pianist with whom she was working at the time, on and off, and apparently ferocha, the butler. He didn’t remember having, I mean, I, I didn’t get to interview ferocho, because Fabio jedvozonia. He was a collective callous items who was on, who was in contact with filcher told me Firoz would not speak to anybody. Now, since then, firocha has actually published his own Little Book of Memories, but it’s very specific to his own relationship with callous. It’s not a biography of callous. It’s more this. These are things you would say to me, and you know, stuff like that. I don’t know if Fabio told me from ferocio that ferocio never mentioned driving her to the hospital to see on us. He was also her driver, her chauffeur. So I don’t know if she went that CNS. I do know that the last time they spoke, at least according to what she told stevios, Carlo topolos was quite a warm occasion. There was no bitterness there. Well, if we

Dan LeFebvre  1:43:45

go back to the movie, I found it interesting that the movie’s version of Maria Callas never listened to her own records. She says something about how it’s the records are too perfect. A song should never be perfect. It should be performed in that moment on stage. But then in the movie, during her final week, during the course of the movie, we see her listening to her own records, and even having her housemate Bruno recording her practicing so she can compare her voice to her earlier recordings. Is it true that Maria didn’t like to listen to her own recordings and then started to listening to them near the end of her life? That’s

Sophia Lambton  1:44:21

pretty much true, but not for the reasons the movie alleges. So first of all, Marie Carlos would never have found her recordings perfect ever. One of my favorite recordings of hers is manually score from september 1957 and she denied the release of it. She forbade the release of it because she thought it was so it was only released in 1959 um, whenever she had herself, she was she was always picking up on things she could have done better. There’s a really loving interview of hers with David Frost on the David Frost show on CBS from 1970 in which he plays her. I think it’s custom diva. It’s definitely from normo. It’s probably the custom diva um. From her first non recording from 1954 he asked, Well, did you sense mistakes? And that? She says, No, but it could have been better. That was always the case. But when she was at the peak of her career, I don’t think she particularly listened to recordings, but I will say she developed kind of an obsessive need to listen to them. When she started to lose her voice, or not started, but later on, by 1967 she was listening to recordings, definitely, maybe not six seven, but Peter Andre, who was who worked for Umi, remembering being, remembered being at her flat, at her apartment in early 1968 and she would play her recordings in front of people trying to figure out what was there, what had been lost. She especially was obsessed in her later years with her earlier recordings, trying to get back her early, more bestial, more out of control voice. But she was terribly self loathing. She said, in every artist, there’s a critic, there are always critics and creators. There’s the one who performs the instrument, the reflexes, and then there’s the other person in you who says, Well, that wasn’t good. That could have been better. So she taught herself to pieces, listening to recording. She would never have said anything was perfect, but yeah, she was listening to them, trying to get back something, trying to understand what she had been doing and what had gone

Dan LeFebvre  1:46:28

makes sense. Makes sense. Well, when we started our chat today, I mentioned the opening scene in the movie is also how it ends. So we’ll circle back to that. Now, as we start to wrap up our discussion and then the final scenes, we see Maria singing so loudly in her apartment that thanks to an open window, people are stopping in the streets to hear it then seems to sap the last ounce of energy that she has. Bruna and fruci went to go get groceries and take the dogs for the walk as well. They come back find her on the floor, even though it’s I’m assuming it’s not historically accurate, because that’s just not the way things happen in the real world. But I thought the movie’s ending was beautifully done. It had me in tears watching it, especially when the dogs come in, they start crying as they see her lying motionless on the floor. But how well did the movie do depicting the way that Maria Callas died?

Sophia Lambton  1:47:15

Well, obviously the moment about Maria Callas singing Republic, you know, the public coming that obviously didn’t happen. Rick House wouldn’t have sung like I mean, sometimes she did sing so loudly, practicing in her flat, the people or in a hotel room, for instance, that the neighbors heard. But not, not at that point when her voice was in tatters. She actually, by that point, she felt her voice was so bad she would, for instance, she would tell ferocho to leave the room when she practiced, all the doors would be closed and ferocious. Would remember that at one point she came out and saw him, said, What are you doing here? Because he wasn’t supposed to be there, you know, near the door, listening, kind of eavesdropping on her singing. She probably, you know, as I mentioned before, bro and chirocha was there when she died. It was quite a simple day. I don’t think. No, she didn’t have, she didn’t have occasion to sing, because she woke up at about 1pm um, prepared on some coffee and eggs. She went to go to go to the bathroom to get dressed. She had a sudden headache. I mentioned earlier she had been suffering from bad pain on her left side. A doctor had said it was flu and rheumatism, but she started having a heart attack. BRUNO offered her spoonfuls of coffee, while Firoz tried to call one of her doctors. Eventually, Fi called an ambulance. I’m not sure why he didn’t call an ambulance begin with, to be honest, but he was trying to reach one of her doctors, and and and she, and she died at about 2:15pm Paris time. Her poodles. She did have poodles. They were Jeddah and pixie. Pixie was smaller than her representation in this movie. Pixie was the white one. Jenna was the black one. I don’t know if they held when she died. They loved her very much. She tried to teach them to sing. There’s a recording of her trying to teach them to sing. And there, there’s a recording of them yapping, and she’s trying to get them to Yap melodically.

Dan LeFebvre  1:49:19

I’ve had dogs. I haven’t had poodles, but it would be a feat to try to get them to sing melodically.

Sophia Lambton  1:49:28

Yeah.

Dan LeFebvre  1:49:31

Something that Maria does mention throughout the movie is how she’s writing her autobiography, although we never see it published in the movie. There’s a line of dialog from her sister near the end, where she tells Maria not to write anything about her life, but if you do, be kind to yourself. And the impression I got from the movie was that she’s mostly hallucinating her life flashing before her eyes before the end. But did Maria Callas actually end up writing an autobiography?

Sophia Lambton  1:49:58

No, Maria clouds didn’t write an auto. Biography, but she was always interested in the idea of trying to set the record straight. The first time she did anything akin to that was when she she wrote a series of articles that were kind of her memoirs. So they were known as her memoirs for Oji magazine in Italy, using a ghost writer, Anita pensoti. So, so she kind of dictated to Anita pensoti That would have been in December 57 No, wait. No, no, December, 56 No, published in January 57 in six installments in orgy magazine in Italy. But she was considering an autobiography, as that is March 1960 when she wrote to her friend herb and Weinstock, the music critic. One day, rather soon, I will decide to write my book biography, but I need someone to make some research in Greece, of pictures, declarations, true in brackets and information that my memory can fail. You know how I’m precise in everything? At least I try my best to be later on. Should pick that up again. That the idea of a biography, an autobiography. But she was so funny. She said, I can’t talk about myself that would be lacking in modesty. So she started writing to her friends and colleagues. She wrote to the daughter of conductor Victor De Sabata, Eliana, who had been her friend in Milan, saying, Can you provide me some memories, because I don’t remember or something. And and wrote to dole Soria, who had worked she had founded Angel records together with her husband Dario. Maria would say there have been so many lies she told. In October 1971 she told Joan Crawford, who was kind of a cattle friend of hers, not not a close friend, but they were on Franny chance. She told Joan Crawford she was working on a biography. And she actually had the interest of an editor at Simon and Schuster in in New York, Peter schwed. And she continued writing. You know, she actually wrote to one of her old maids, meaning one of her former maids, not an old maid, but one of her former maids, Matilda sangioli, asking her again, can you supply some memories? Because I can’t talk about myself, I would be lacking in modesty. So there were there were discussions. She was always, you know, she wore her heart on her sleeve, and her letters are very expressive. They’re very expressive and they’re very open. So she would put for instance, I hope this letter makes sense because I was distracted listening to Wagner’s music on the turntable, and in another letter, in a letter to Irving colon and another music critic, she writes, PS, I hope this letter makes sense because I was interrupted 11 times whilst writing it, so she she really wore her heart on her sleeve. I I really hope that this this episode, and for those who are interested, my book dispels the idea that she was so mysterious, because actually, she really wasn’t mysterious. There have been many performing artists who are mysterious, who continue to be mysterious. Well, cast wasn’t particularly secretive, and she didn’t write hell to biography. She wasn’t a big writer. I don’t think she would have managed writing held a book. She would have found him boring. You know, talking about herself, she actually said in an interview, I don’t like talking about myself, I found me boring. I find me boring. So that wasn’t going to happen, but she did entertain the idea that

Dan LeFebvre  1:53:02

leads right into my final question for you, because you have a biography about Maria Callas in print, a centennial biography. I’ll make sure to add a link in the show notes for everyone to get their own copy right now to learn more about the RE real Maria Callas. But before I let you go, can you share one of your favorite stories that might surprise someone who has only seen the movie.

Sophia Lambton  1:53:23

Well, the first, first and foremost, what I want to tell someone who’s only seen the movie is that above and beyond all other false characterizations of Mary callous, above and beyond all other myths, I think what would have really gutted her was the idea that she could have been rude to a fan. She was never rude to a fan. I mean, all of the colleagues that were not, maybe not all, but the vast majority of people who worked with her talked about how generous and friendly she was. She was such a team player. I mean, she, she sent a message upon him. Kiku mufonio for a Royal Opera House audition. You know, she wrote to the opera house asking for an audition for her. She, when she was at Judah giving master classes, she got the Secretary, Lona Levant, basically she wrote, she sent a singer CB to Larry Kelly, who was a general manager of Dallas civic opera, even though the singer, Mario full score, was 13, nine years old. So you’d think the 39 year old could have done himself, but no, she’s doing it for him. But her public were like has her children, she would never have been rooted them, and she was in touch with her fans. At one point, a fan Dolores rivelino, who’d later become a chef, sneaked in, sneaked into her dressing room, as in kind of illicitly, and Maria offered her a swig from a big bottle of orange age she had been drinking. So she received fans in her dressing room at 3am and another example of how loving she was to her fans was during what was basically what I call the La Scala Cold War, which is when her husband, manegini kept I think it was his awkward, misguided way of getting a higher fee for his wife for her performances. He had spoken ill of the General Manager of La Scala, Antonio giangelli, to the press and giringhe never realized how much of this was coming from manegini and not from callus. So he was trying to get Marie callous to tell him her available dates for the fall. Look following seat in 1957 to 958, Oh, no. Sorry. No wait. No, no, sorry. 1958 to 959, and she would she would give him the dates, and he would say, but I can’t make decisions until I have your dates. And she would say, but here are my dates. And you’ll say, but I can’t make decisions I have this. It is such a silly exchange because it was dramatized in the press as this big few, but when you read the messages, it’s ridiculous. So was playing, or whether he was having some periodic illiteracy going on or something. But it ended badly, because eventually Marie Keller said, I cannot sustain this in genuine relationship, and she left La Scala, meaning she said, I’m no longer going to perform at La Scala. But before that, she was singing in Anna Bolena in april 1958 at La Scala. A month before she left the theater, things were really tense with giringelli. He would eventually, I don’t think it was this performance, but later on, oh, no, wait, I’m just trying to figure this out. No, no. Sorry. We’re not in April 58 we’re in May 58 she’s doing Pirata, her last performance at La Scala. For a long time, she’d return later on in polyuto. That would be in December 1960 but for now, she’s doing il Terada, Atlas column and gongue. It was so piss off at her. He had the big iron curtain, not just the red velvet curtain, but the Iron Curtain. Stage curtain fall down quite early after the performance, so she couldn’t get an ovation. She, you know, the audience couldn’t continue applauding. That was a signal, everybody must go home. And the fire marshal came out and said, you know, okay, clear the stage. Performance is over. And when Rhea came outside, there were all these fans who were huddled to say goodbye, and police officers, police officers, or I don’t know, security girls were there to restrain them. And she said, Leave them alone. These people are my friends. They are doing no harm, because that was her relationship with her public she had been banished from her dressing room. Usually, she would receive them in her dressing room, and sometimes stay up as late as 3am in the dressing room, signing autographs. But she had been kind of the feud had happened. She had left La Scala so during Kelly had ended the performance earlier, meaning they hadn’t given time for innovation or fan engagement, and she stood outside with them and stopped them from being banished by the strange guards who’ve been recruited to stand there.

Dan LeFebvre  1:57:35

Wow, yeah, that’s, I mean, that’s a very different, very Maria Callas than we see in the movie. So I really hope that everybody listening to this will pick up a copy of your book to learn more about the real Maria Callas. Thank you again. So much for your time, Sophia.

Sophia Lambton  1:57:50

Thank you so much, Dan.

Dan LeFebvre  03:18

Before we dig into some of the details of the movie, one thing I like to do is to take a step back and look at the movie from an overall perspective. So if you were to give Disney’s Miracle a letter grade for how accurately it captured the essence of the true story, what would it get?

Lou Vairo  03:34

1. When I saw it, and I waited until a few weeks ago to even see the movie. I never wanted to watch it because as I lived it. But I remember Patti Brooks, Herb’s wife, telling me it was excellent portrayal. And several of the players really liked the movie. And people that were there and I worked with their all saw it, and they thought it was very accurate and and where it was. I had to agree with them all now.

Dan LeFebvre  04:04

At the very beginning of the movie, it sets up the story. We see Kurt Russell’s version of Herb Brooks being chosen to coach Team USA in the 1980 Olympics. What really stood out to me about this in the movie was the timeline, because we see coach Brooks getting the job about eight months before the Olympics are to start, and it doesn’t really seem like a lot of time to recruit players. Recruit players, build a team expected to compete on an international level. So as I was watching that part of the movie, on one hand, we know movies tend to build extra drama and tension a lot of times, and on the other hand, it’s not like the Olympics really sneak up on anyone less than, you know, eight months or a year beforehand. So I couldn’t help but think that maybe this was an example of the movie trying to build up drama by making it seem like the 1980s US Olympic team was just assembled in eight months. How accurate is the movie’s portrayal of building the US hockey team just eight months before the 1980 Olympics started?

Lou Vairo  04:57

It was, it was accurate. You know, we haven’t we. They call the National Sports Festival, which the Olympic committee put together. So we brought in 80 players in July of 79 Colorado Springs, and we had four teams. And we’re able to, of course, it’s summer time, but we were able to fairly evaluate the players. And also an interesting thing was that it’s not like it was years ago when guys weren’t in any kind of shape in the summer. Kids today skate year round. They go to gyms. They go to different programs. So, you know, they’re pretty well committed to hockey by the age of 1718, they finally figured that’s the sport they want to concentrate on. So they’re year round, in pretty good shape. It was a great sports festival. It was at the Air Force Academy, with which is fantastic, and it was very helpful in the election process. Plus curd was a very active coach, and coached in the WCA, the Minnesota golfers. They were national champions, and he knows all the players. He knew most of the players from the different teams, so it was okay. Worked out, okay, the timeframe,

Dan LeFebvre  06:29

okay, yeah, we see that some in the movie. We see them in Colorado Springs, a little bit before the Olympics, a few months before, and now you were involved in scouting for the team, which we don’t really see a lot in the movie. According to the movie, it almost seems like Coach Brooks was the one to decide who made it onto the team. So as I was watching that, I again got the impression that the movie was maybe oversimplifying the process. Can you fill in some more context around your involvement in helping the 80 Olympic team come together?

Lou Vairo  06:57

Yes, her did make all the final decisions which he should make, but he has to answer it. If it’s a failure or a success, you’ve got that answers. He was very he wanted a skating team. He knew the ice surface would be larger. He wanted a good skating, technically sound hockey team. My role didn’t well. I got involved. I was friends with her because I coached junior hockey in Minnesota and brought a different style of hockey to the what’s now the USHL, and it was called the Midwest Junior League, and we were national champions, and we had a lot of college coaches, followers, the players watch us play, including her. So I got to know all these guys, and he got to know me, and he liked what we did at that time in Austin, Minnesota. He really liked it. And he come to practice sessions. He’d invite my team up on Monday nights. We’d go sometimes during the season, play against this JV Williams Arena in Minnesota on the, you know, on the college ground. And so I got to know him real well. He got to know me. I never heard of the guy, and he’d never heard of me. Why? Why would he before I came to Minnesota, and I only came here because of an old player where mine recommended me for the job, and lo and behold, they gave it to me. I didn’t like pursue. It was all accidental, really. But anyway, but her would expose and consult with his people. Great Thatcher. Greg was a great assistant coach, great communicator, perfect go between for herb and the players. Herb was a disciplinarian, demanding and tough, but fair and honest. Good, good coach, excellent coach, and my role came about. I was coaching the under 20 junior national team in 79 and December 79 our games were in Sweden. Both think they were in Sweden. Was it 79 or 80? I can’t even remember, but on the way overseas, Herb asked me if I would stop in Lake Placid. There was a four nation tournament, the beat teams, national beat Team of Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia was one country then, and Sweden. And my boss said that’d be fine, do it. So I did it. And I was in Lake Placid. First period. I was watching between seed Sweden and the USA. And Sweden was doing something that seemed to dis in their own end coming out that was disruptive to our players, and unusual they were sending a week. Side, Winger out high when we had the puck in their own end, and it caused the defenseman on that side to go back, and he cut across the ice, and the entity got nervous, he went back. And what Sweden did was they created a man of damage in their own end, four against three. And they always had an open man. They took theirs to and walk out of the zone. Killed off for check. And I noticed that, and I mentioned that to Bob Fleming, who was chairman of the Olympic team. He’s basically the guy that selected bird to coach it. And Bob was sitting a couple of seats away from me, and I was writing that down on a brief diagram I had with me. And he said, What do you write? Then I explained it, and he said, Can I have that? I said, Yeah, they’ll get me period entity and her came out from the dressing room where the benches were, and he said, Lou, come on down a minute. So I did. We said, explain to me what he saw. And I told him. He said, Okay, good, very good. And they made an adjustment. I suggested something. He liked a suggestion. Usually they knew it anyway, and it’s just reaffirmed. In fact, when you’re sitting above and looking down, you see a lot, not sometimes all the time, you can see more than the coach on the bench out of you making line changes. You’re walking back and forth. You can’t always be the entire surface of the rink, but as a eye in the sky, you can it’s a very good way to scout. So based on that, from that, he kept in touch with me during the season, when they would play exhibition games, I’d get called every once in a while at home, and he would ask me if I been following the team? I said yes. And then when I got back from the World Junior he asked me if anybody, have I seen, anybody that I thought could help the team? And I told him, yeah, I there’s a few players. I gave you some names, but he had made a commitment when they picked the 26 players in Colorado Springs, that he would honor it, that the team of 20 would come from that, and the players held them accountable. He wanted to make change, and I supported him on that. But the players, led by ruzione, did the right thing, and they said, No, that’s not the deal we put up with you for six months. We’re gonna you know we can win a medal. We can win the gold medal. Leave us alone. Just leave us together. He called me, told me, the next thing that happened in a meeting, I believe in Dallas, who were playing the Dallas team in the Central Hockey League doesn’t exist anymore, the central League for the Goodland. And anyway, I said, Well, that’s perfect. He hadn’t to be right. He says, Yeah, I know they are. And I said, not only are they right, They’ve now taken responsibility and accountability for their upcoming performance. That’s that’s great, and, and we, he honored that, and it was great, and it did work. So anyway, from all of those interactions, he said, would you, are you coming to the Olympics? I said, I am. I’m going to help. You know, I’m, I’m going to help with all the, all the things that have to be done at the Olympics. I’m going to be coming as an employee of USA Hockey. There were only four of us at time, and we were all there. So he came up with the idea, what if you sit upstairs and and we use a walkie talkie from the band to the bench to Craig, Patrick, and anything you say to Greg, and he can relate to me, and also you. I’m going to want you to come down after each period and meet with you every morning in the dressing room and go over the different teams and who the next team is we play, etc. And he said, our first game is against Sweden. So I thought about that. When he said that, I went to my boss, Hal Trumbull. I said, How have you selected a team host of Sweden when they come over before the Olympic games start, and they travel and play exhibition games. He said, No, not yet, but I’m working on that right now. Why did I told him? I said, I should be the team host. I can meet them at the airport, take them to the different venues, and watch all their practices. Gaines who get a guilt for the team. I know the coach, Tommy sandling, very well, and I loaded Peter, pokie Lindstrom, and Hal said, Very good. That’s excellent, a good idea. And I called her and told him. He said, perfect, do it. And I think that’s what I did. So there’s a great team, the Swedish team. I was with them for three weeks. I never saw them miss a pass, not in practical games. They were unbelievable. They might have been the most skilled, ethnically skilled team, better than anybody in all the basic fundamental, skating, passing, receiving, combination play. They were good. And they had great young players. They had deli Lindberg and gold. They had Max Maslin, they had Thomas Erickson, Thomas Johnson, many others. I mean, that was a that was a great team, and I think they won the brunsmetal, but we had to be pretty damn good. So anyway, that’s how that all came about, and it worked. You know, I don’t know how much I contributed, but I did my best. I think I did more to contribute. It helped me. I mean, these are good hockey men, Herb and Greg, Patrick. They know what this thing is, because it does help when you have another set of eyes. It just gives you more confidence into what you think you’re seeing. But the big thing is, you know about it.

Lou Vairo  16:33

We had every area covered. He didn’t know if it was legal or not, and Bob Fleming had gotten permission from some of those, some agency, I don’t know what they call it, that’s AA or something, that we could do that, but I don’t know if we had permission, or we even asked the International Ice Hockey Federation or Olympic Committee if you’re allowed to do it or not. Just did it. And so I think it was we just wanted to keep that quiet. I guess. I don’t know for sure. I don’t see anything legal or wrong with it, but who knows, and that’s really why. And then, besides that, it wasn’t me, it was that great team and in the in the coaching staff, and I feel bad sometimes that the goalie coach, Juarez strelo, never gets mentioned. He was outstanding, just outstanding with Jimmy Craig and janicek, and he was one of the great goalie coaches I’ve ever met anywhere in the world. And a good guy, funny guy, terrific man, and hen appreciated him, but to have, excuse me, worm was more in the background. But that’s how that went down. That’s how that all happened. And it was good, because after the first period, I came downstairs. I sat in a little box upstairs. Mondale came the Vice President to some games, and I walked into my box, and there was the Vice President, Mondale and Secret Service agents, and there was guys with guards rifles laying on the beams above us in this in case, in the Spania. Can you imagine that? And here I am sitting there with a walkie talkie watching the game. He was weird, and he was a real nice guy, the Vice President, very nice man. He I introduced myself. He asked me what I was doing. I told him, he introduced I knew who he was, introduced himself and all that it was. He was a pleasant guy, and from Minnesota, of course, he was a big arty fan, and that’s how that went down. I had one of the best views of that whole Olympics, and I will tell you this behind the scenes Stoke, I felt my best contribution was just being heard spread was after the first period of the Swedish game. One, one he was tasting downstairs. There was a outside the dressing room. There was a exit, and nobody kind of staircase, nobody used. And it was big glass windows overlooking the speed skating oval. And I would meet him in that little area. They had just the two of us. Nobody’s bothering us. Nobody can hear us. He’d lean back against the wall. He had his pencil and pad, and they take lift one foot and put it against the wall and stand there. And I’d stand in front. He would ask me, what’d you say? What do you think? Like that? But he was pacing this guy, and I he was very nervous. I said, What’s the matter? Oh, that Efraim Johansson meeting Tenny was his GM. They didn’t get along. Kenny was a great guy, and he loved her and but they were both alpha guys, and they would, they argue with each other about everything, and he said that schedule, we’re finished. We can’t play with this team. We’re exhausted. I say Easy. Easy. Calm down. You play in the best skating team in the tournament, the best technical team in the tournament. These guys are good. I told you, I spent three weeks with them. They’re good, but they’re beatable. We skating with them in the spirit. Well, we just got to go up a notch, and we’re well prepared. We’re playing good. We’re playing really well. He said, You think so? I said, Yes. And I said, Look her, let me be very blunt with you. I’m glad I did this, by the way. I said we got a chance to win a medal. I wasn’t sure coming in, I’m not talking gold medal. I’m just saying we get a chance to win a medal. We, we need to win this game. We this game is winnable, right, pal, and you’ve done a great job with this team. These kids are good, but we have a young team, and the Swedish team is far more seasoned that a lot of these guys are playing a lot of World Champions ships and international events, but you’ve done a great job. You’re a great coach. And stop worrying about Kenny, and he’s my friend. Remember that? So be careful what you say. Stop worrying about you’re a great coach, and you’ve done a great job. You can’t do more than you’ve done. Just believe in the team. They believe in you. I believe in you. And he looked at me like, stop general and let us forget look. And he said, You really mean it? I said, 100% now let’s go get them. And luckily we we got some breaks in the last minute. The Swedes could have easily created off the boards and out. We lose that game, but we end up with a great goal by Baker and Todd, which was a key guy and all that. And we did the tie. And after that, it was fantastic, the confidence level. And, you know, at the beginning, there were that many spectators. There wasn’t even a full house in a search game. You know, people didn’t believe in us, and a lot of the spectators were from foreign countries, like I was, I knew the Soviet team was in trouble, because I was downstairs right by the dressing room every day, and I could see the goings and comings, and I knew their Guys. Boris mojaro, the president of the Federation of your zoomed out blood. Second coach brought a new museum out. I knew all these guy, laundry, store, voice, tough, the General Secretary and I just either were nervous, because whenever that bus would pull in a practice or games, if the 500 people shouting, waving flags of humbling Czechoslovakia, Poland, Eastern European countries, Russians would be the Soviets, and they’d be shouting at the players as they got off, terrible words in some Russian language. They all studied Russian in school, and the Russians were not comfortable. They were never comfortable. They felt not bad, but very nervous. But why are these Americans treating us this way? Plus of us understand, I guess, and all that. It wasn’t good. It was for them. They were not a they were not a confident bunch that they normally are. I could see it, and that’s never been recorded, but that’s the truth. And there were a lot of the fans came to cheer against them, not cheer for anybody in particular. But then, when our thieves started winning, they were cheering for us, of course. And even if you walk down Main Street in lane classic, I saw Soul Man, I can tell by the way they dress their faces that I hear their language. I know where they were from, and that was a big thing in that tournament, and it affected the Soviet team, for sure. Well,

Dan LeFebvre  24:50

I want to ask about the Soviet team, because in the movie, it seems like everything’s from the perspective of Team USA, but we see bits and pieces here. There to learn that the Soviets have been dominant for like, 15 years. I think there’s even a bit of dialog in there that talks about how some of the players on the Soviet team even played together in 15 years. And that just seems like such a stark contrast to the way the movie sets up Team USA, where, you know, they pretty much just started playing together for the past few months. And they’re not professionals at all that come from colleges and such, and so it just seems like there’s this huge contrast that the movie is setting up between the Soviet team and the US team. Is that pretty accurate?

Lou Vairo  25:32

Yeah, my feeling is this, and I I’ve been a student of their hockey there. My main mentor teacher. Was a great Soviet coach. Anatoly Tarasov, great friend of mine that’s still very close to his entire family that’s left, and so I knew their hockey inside and out. In my lifetime, I’ve been to starting with the Soviet Union now Russia 25 times, and I deal every day, basically, even now, with Russian Russian guys, coaches, players. I talked to some of my best friends. I just wrote a book, and I didn’t write it to author. Wrote it, but I gave him the information and dedicating the book to my friend Yuri kamanos, who died a couple of years ago. He was great friend of mine. He played for the Central Army team and played the terrorist out and played with some of those guys. But anyway, it was a great team. It might have been the strongest Soviet team ever put together, you can make that argument, but they weren’t comfortable. That’s what I noticed. They just weren’t comfortable. And that can have an effect on human nature. You know, at our gene, one of the things I don’t like, the main miracle. I don’t like it at all. It was a great, cocky team. Those players were outstanding. They were in great shape, as good a shape as any of the Soviets who were in great shape and and we had two coaches, three with with the goalie coach, stralo, they’re as good as anybody in the world coaching hockey. They were terrific coaches, and our players were wonderful. If you look at the history of hockey in America, the sentiment, are you kidding me? Mark Johnson, he is a great hockey player. Mark paddlewood was a great hockey player. Neil Broughton called me my favorite old time player, great hockey player. Then you had Wells who had a specific job and heard used him perfectly as a defensive spinnerman. He was terrific guy. And then moving Dave Christian back to defense a month before the Olympic Games, was brilliant, and I credit Gordon Jimmy Christensen. There was a nickname he suggested to her to put David back on defense. He said, he said he’s a he’s a son of man. He said he’s anything. He’s a winger, defenseman. He can even play golf. Just trust him, put him on defense. He’ll get the bug out of his own. He can work it because he can stay Yeah, it ran Baker o’ Callahan and soder and Morrill. This was a wonderful team, and Jim Craig was an outstanding goalie, and he probably played the best 20 days or 18 days, whatever the tournament took of his life. I don’t think he ever played better before or since, and it’s a shame that either the outstanding goalie, but he really rose to the occasion. So it wasn’t a miracle to me. It was doable, but I had to play him 10 times. They probably win six, seven of the games the Soviets, but our team that day against them was great, and that’s all we had to beat. Break that one day against them. You only plays them once,

Dan LeFebvre  29:33

yeah. Well, I want to ask about that too, because in the movie we see before the Olympics, like I think it’s three days in the movie, we see the Soviet team playing Team USA as kind of a warm up game between them. So it doesn’t really count, but according to the movie, the Soviet Union comes away with a like a 10, three blowout victory against Team USA, and it really starts to add to the tension and drama in the movie. At least of you know, are we doing the right. And kind of questioning everything up to that point. Can you share what the atmosphere was like around Team USA when they lost that

Lou Vairo  30:07

that night or that game in Madison Square Garden? I was doubting advanced scouting, and I had gone to Montreal. I drove up to Montreal, and I watched two games up there, Czechoslovakia, because that was our second game after Sweden. The checks played. I can’t remember who, maybe Canada. I’m not sure. Then there was another game I watched. So I had gotten all my notes done, and there were no cell phones in those days, and I was driving back to Lake Placid from from Montreal. It’s only an hour’s drive, and that’s where I was going to check in at Lake Placid and be there for the Olympic Games. But I had no way of knowing what we did in New York against the Soviets in the exhibition game, and the next day, I was able to reach herb in New York. And then talk to him in his hotel, and he said it was, it was something Luke. I said, What was the score? And he told me, I think it was 10th grade. I said, Oh, how did we look to me? Did we do anything? Right? He said, Yes. He said, first of all, we were the kids were overwhelmed. I knew we were in trouble, because when the public announcer was introducing the Soviet players, our guys were banging their spit for them on the ice, applauding each player as they got introduced. These have got these are well known players. You know that our kids know of, and they were starstruck. Some intimidation there, yeah, yeah. But he said the thing that I liked was we could have played another game after that, our conditioning has really been good. These kids have worked their ass off for me, and they’re in they were in great shape, but I wasn’t too worried. I at least I knew we could stay with them. And I think the whole thing was overwhelming, you know, just overwhelmed us. The young kid Madison Square Garden, packed house, chanting, applause. You know. So he says, I think if we, when we play him again, we’ll be better. And then we were, and it was, it was interesting, you know, was fun to watch all these teams, but I told them, I had told them. I said, not the Soviet team is jittery. Hey, we, if we can ever get ahead of them, we can really cause them problems. Just they’ll, they’ll argue with each other. They fight with each other. You know, the people say, Oh, they’re so disciplined than that, but they’re human beings, and they argue with bicker, will blame each other and stuff. That’s no different than any other country, but you never see that, because they’re never behind. They’re always weak, you know? They’re always comfortable. And when they told tradyak, I think that was a horrible decision, and he could out blame gizmo for it, your Zopa won’t talk about it. I know him very well. He won’t. He won’t, even to this day, he doesn’t want to talk about us. Every time I see him, he’s still around. He’s 82 he’s great guy, great archetype. I’ll see him and with you know, saying no and greet and all that I say to him, like Placid, and he goes crazy. He makes the best waves without me. Oh, he goes crazy. He’s a real good guy.

Dan LeFebvre  33:56

That’s funny. Well, if we go back to the movies timeline, after the Olympics start, there are a number of games that the movie just shows very quickly before the big game, we see USA versus Sweden. Talked about a little bit about that. That turns out to be a tie game. And then there’s a seven three win over Czechoslovakia, five to one win against Norway, yeah,

Lou Vairo  34:17

but that was the most unbelievable game for me in the whole Olympics. That was a great Czechoslovakian team. Yeah, and the night before the game, I invited the three Czech coaches. They the last of the three just died six months ago. The head coach was Carl boot, and the assistants were Dr Lud Bucha and Stanislav medvesseri, three outstanding players, former national team players and great coaches and great guys, great hockey men. Carol good later on, became president of the Czechoslovakian Ice Hockey Federation before. Of the, you know, the split, and then they was president, I think, of the Czech Federation for a while so, and they, they have like buildings that they rent out different countries. They call it the US House, Swedish House, or the Italian house. Well, I knew some of the people at the Italian house, and they loved me. And I bring them some pens and some little banners USA, and they would feed me, and they bought their old food and chefs from Italy with them. So it was unbelievable. No, you can’t find a restaurant as good anywhere in the inland, outside of Italy, as good as this was, so they told me. I said, Can I ever bring a Chinese? They said, of course, you bring whoever you want. But I bought three Czech coaches because they were all friends of mine, and we had a great dinner and great night. I remember boot coach. I he couldn’t speak English. Taro good, but Bucha never said he could. But with Carl, good, I can converse with him well enough in German. We could speak in Germany to each other well enough. And the other guys, I speak in English because I don’t know a few, maybe a few words, check or Slovak, but not many. And ludie said, I watched your team practice this morning. Uh, it tracks too hard, in my opinion, coming off the game against Sweden, and now the players tomorrow. And I remember Stan Stanislav saying to me, you know, I said, is everything good with your team? He said, No, not exactly. We lost Ivan Linka Henri was the key to our power play, and we just haven’t gotten that resolved the way we’d like it. And we’re, quite frankly, we’re worried about discuss these escaping, you know, what do they call that when they run away from the country? Uh, whatever that term is, defecting. Is

Dan LeFebvre  37:15

that right? Defecting, the

Lou Vairo  37:18

fact, yeah, they’re worried about detecting, because they had a lot of I would see them their own Secret Service people traveling with those teams from the East countries, from the Soviet Union, etc. They had the credentials. And I would see them in the bowels of the arena, always outside the dressing room, watching every move of every every part of the personnel. So they, and I, like the goalie, I think it was crelik, I’m not sure Yuri krillet. He’s okay, but one of the goodest previous Czechoslovakian goalies, like called a Czech even zerilla. And I have to tell you, if I were you going to predict, I would say I would have predicted the checks to win, 535242, something like that. They were really good. I mean, they’re the only team that ever really eat the Soviets. During those the reign of success that the Soviets had, it was always Czechoslovakia to be the team that beat them and in the 72 stupa series between the greatest Canadian NHL players against the greatest Soviet players, which wasn’t really true, because how how Bobby, you are. They weren’t playing because they were injured or in the WHA and they weren’t allowed to play, which was stupid in the 72 series. And playing that 72 Soviet team, which did a great job sure won. It really surprised. Well, I’m not surprised they lost because of two great players, Phyllis Esposito and his brother Tony. I’ll say it now, and I’ve said it forever. It should be a statue in front of any ice rink in Canada, a bronze bachelor, Tony in goal and Phil scoring, those two brothers with Canada on their back and led the will willed them to that victory in 72 and so, you know, Czechoslovakia was a great team, And they were the world champions that year. In 72 they had beat the Soviet team that was played Canada and then the Canadian team on their way home after the 72 Summit Series, they played, and I believe they beat Czechoslovakia of three two in Prague. I. Believe that’s pretty accurate, something like that. So I was done when I saw us play like we did. We were flying, we were flying, and we beat him. We ran them out of the building Seventh Street. Then I knew we could win a short a medal, maybe the big one. And then the games against Romania, West Germany, Norway, I think that’s who we played. They were. They weren’t easy. You know, these countries can put 1520, good players together. They weren’t easy. They were, I mean, we won them all without being too nervous, but they weren’t easy, and then, then Finland, after we beat the Soviets, we had to beat Finland, and they had a goalie. Jorma volnan yom is the hall of fame goalkeeper in the international SRC Federation, Hall of Fame, one of the greats from Finland, the first of many great finish goalies. Yom is still coaches today. He’s probably close to 80 coaches in Italy now, and he helped develop the great finished goalkeeping program that’s produced all these great finish goalies the last 20 years or so. And I gotta tell you a little side story about Yom. I still was still in touch with each other. Yoma, do you remember the plane from Yaris Lovell that was going to St Petersburg at the opening of the KH Hill season of library years ago that took off and crashed and everybody died. He remember

Dan LeFebvre  41:48

that story, I remember, I remember the story, yeah, yeah.

Lou Vairo  41:52

And he was on that flight, Oh, wow. And they just announced. He told me the story, passing your seat belts. And his cell phone rang, and it was his president of the club. He was working for Yaroslavl, teaching goalies, and Mr. Yaakov called him, and he said, Are you in the air? He said, No, we’re getting ready to take off. He said, tell him to stop. And he did. He yelled out, don’t take off. You know, whatever. And what’s going on? It’s Mr. Yaka Levy. I have to get off the plane. We got two Junior goalies just came in. He wants me to work with them, so I’m not going to make the trip. And he got off. But finally got to the rink. The plane, he crashed. Wow. Imagine that. Wow. I

Dan LeFebvre  42:39

I couldn’t, I mean, I couldn’t imagine, I don’t know what my the thought process would be around that that’s, wow,

Lou Vairo  42:47

wasn’t meant to be. God intervened, I guess I don’t know. Yeah, and, and he still alive. Yeah and, and that was such a tragedy. And, boy, that they do a great job in the Aristotle every single home game, they honored them all the parish. It’s beautiful, and they did it. They still do it. It’s very nice, nice way to remember those poor people.

Dan LeFebvre  43:15

Well, you’re talking about the the Soviets, kind of feeling like they were never really behind and in the movie, we see the games from Team USA that you were you were talking about. But on the Soviet side, we don’t really see a lot of their games, but we find out that they basically blew out their competition. I think they they said they won all five of their games. Scored like 51 goals. No, they

Lou Vairo  43:36

murdered Japan. And a few teams had a very tough game against Finland and a very tough game against Canada. Okay, the key out of all this, I have to say the truth. You’re interviewing me. I’m going to tell you the truth. Yeah, no, that’s what we’re here for with I’m just glad we never played Canada for some reason during the pre Olympic trial. I mean, games exhibition schedule Canada was tough for us to beat. Okay, it is something that’s now, I think, overcome, but for a while, very psychological between just like blow boxing checks. Checks seem to always beat the slow box, but now it’s changing, and the checks are playing well, but it’s changing US and Canada. Canada had maybe a subconscious little advantage over the US, not that often. 1960 Olympics, under Coach Jack Riley, we beat Canada. Harry Sidon was claiming might have been captain of the Canadian team. And Canada was a, not an easy team to play against, and they almost beat the Soviets, you know, they gave them all they could handle and and Finland too. So we knew Finland was good, very. Very good, and I knew involved in was great. I told everybody said their goal is good. We gotta, we can’t raise shots. We gotta spoil when we shoot. This guy is good. He’s one of the best in the history of international hockey, one of the better goalies. So anyway, but her made that great each I was standing outside, but the lotto door was opened, and the typical Brooks beach, and very typical, he said, You know what we did the other day against the service, something like that will mean nothing if we don’t win today. This is, this is a game we have to win. What, believe me, you’ll take it to your grades. If we don’t, you’ll take it to your grades. That’s very powerful words, and I couldn’t describe it better. And, and, of course, we won. Mark Johnson was spectacular. Dover told it. These guys were good players.

Dan LeFebvre  46:05

The kind of climax of of the movie at the end is, is that big game we’ve kind of alluded to and talked about a little bit, but in the movie, the way it sets it up is because, because of the the game beforehand at Madison Square, where the US got beat. Now it’s, there’s all this tension here in the movie, of, are they going to be able to beat? This the Soviet team. And throughout the movie shows bits and pieces back and forth. They kind of going back and forth. There’s a lot of action that’s, that’s fun to watch. It doesn’t focus on a lot of specific details. But it’s, a movie, so it’s focused on just showing a lot of the action of the game itself. But then as time starts to tick away in towards the end of the game, the Soviets find themselves in a position that they’re not familiar with, being down four to three in a game. And we start to sense in the movie, something that you had kind of alluded to was the Soviets started to look like they were not very comfortable. Can you share what the experience was like for that game?

Lou Vairo  47:08

They were very uncomfortable and very, very nervous. And when they told all right, I don’t. I thought tradiac was, I always believed traded to be one of the greatest goalies that’s ever played the game. Really, physically hardest work you all got. He was a great goalie, only guy that ever could score. Two guys could score against him without much trouble, Bill Esposito and must love nedimansky used to score against him, but most people have a tough time with Ronnie Iceman. He’s intimidating. He’s so big and agile and quit you think he’s going to kill you. Well, he can go you want to go in and shoot on him. He charges out he said, Hey, I can tell you that I’m not exactly Sonia Henrik once, but anyway, pulling him to me, I think deflated team a little bit and broke their confidence like we depend on him. He’s our man and Mushkin, excellent goalie. People forget one year previous and the Challenge Cup at Madison Square Garden. It was best of three. He was tired of one game each the NHL all starts against the same Soviet team. He could have started moosekin In the game, which shocked everybody. Mooskin Shut him out, I think shit nothing, which is pretty impressive. And mooskin was a good goalie, but what I’m saying is I think it shook the team up, and Michael was the only he was a hard working guy, wonderful captain, a great leader for that team, but he was something else that he’s never gotten the credit he deserves. He’s a natural goal scorer. He can score a goal anywhere he ever played high schooler. He’s a goal scorer. He can bury the biscuit. And he scored a great goal against Moskin, who was a great goalie. Too great goal for the winning goal. How do you not? How do you not Where did the miracle? Where this was a great goal scorer, who scored a great goal? I want to see these kids get credit heard. And Craig Patrick did a great job, and Warren strelo The equipment managed many to try. Mean old team, Dr Nagi, all the guys, great guys, but the truth of the matter is they, they won a miracle team. They played the game of their lives against Soviets, and they played a a wonderful, wonderful Olympic competition. They were great. Just like our 60 team, they were great. We’ve had other teams that played well and great, but no, none of the other teams won the gold medal. These two teams did, and they should be eluded for their excellence.

Dan LeFebvre  50:35

Just a good, good team. Yeah, no, it’s

Lou Vairo  50:39

a great team. I coached a lot of those players, so myself on teams. I know how good they were, yeah, and they had said this, and I’ll say right, Daniel again, I don’t believe any other coach would have won, won the gold medal with that team, but books, he was just the right, perfect coach, perfect timing. I often told him. I said, if you were to coach in in 76 or 84 it wouldn’t be a legend. You’d be like me, a dummy. You wouldn’t have made a legend. I think it matters. Everything has to be right. Just go right for any team to win a gold medal in the Olympics, not just that we did. Everything has to go right. You got to get bounces. You got to be healthy, you got to it just has to work. Guys have to play at the top of their game for two weeks of their life. And this team did it, and I, I salute the coaches. They didn’t, they didn’t get in the way and mess it up and made it better. And Craig Patrick did a great job in his role, uh, supporting her all year long. It was Estrella you can coach Goldies, you know. So that’s my take on it. Anyway,

Dan LeFebvre  52:09

yeah. Well, I wanted to ask about the Soviets when they replaced their goalie, since the movie kind of focuses on the US side of things, not as much from the Soviet side. You mentioned that that kind of seemed to deflate the Soviets. But according to the movie it shows it seems to be like a morale boost for team USA. Was that kind of the point in the game where you felt, wow, we might actually win this thing.

Lou Vairo  52:35

Yeah. But you know what really when Mark Johnson scored at the end of the period, pinker was David’s Christian flipped the puck up in the air and thought side and mark the two defensemen, Billy tervulkin, on the Soviet side, and even trading at they kind of let up, and Mark was right between them, grabbed the puck and leaked out tradiac and scored. To me, that was, that’s what I said. Oh, we could win this. We got a shot. And, yeah, it was, there was tension still, and like, oh God, the last I liked Herb’s comment, the last 10 minutes of the game, he said, with the longest 10 minutes of my life. And I felt the same way. I mean, I just kept looking at the clock. Move, move, move. They put on a rush the course bar, I think, and maybe the post malfev was in there. Petra, a lama. They’re a great team. I I can comfortably say that. I think that might have been in greatest Soviet team I’ve ever seen, at least on paper. But they didn’t have a great tournament, and they still could think what they went to silver, and they they weren’t comfortable. Those people from the Eastern countries upset them. Yeah,

Dan LeFebvre  54:07

you were talking about that before, where they just they didn’t feel comfortable the whole time. But it’s

Lou Vairo  54:12

and I was outside their dressing room a lot, and I remember when they beat Canada or Finland. I can’t remember which team the game ended, and it was a such game for them. And as they were walking in, something I never saw coaches do before, but it’s, you know, we’re talking different cultures here too. Uh, Soviet culture was not the Canadian or the American culture, but he could not. Was standing outside the dressing room door, and as each player was coming in off the ice at the end of the game, he was greatly relieved. He would kiss each player on the lips. He would listen to do that, you know, part of their culture, men kissed men on. Lips, relatives and friends, you know, and as they came in, he would kiss him, and he would fold their shoulders, and he would say, bolshei, basiba. Great thanks. Many, many, great plants. Each player, they were so relieved they had won that game, though I knew they were bold enough. I felt it all along. I INAF times. I knew their culture, I knew their nervousness, and I kept saying and never in the position to win. Lucky. You know, they’re usually ahead by three four goals going into the third period. I’d like to see how they’re going to react when things are not going good, and that’s what we thought of it. You know, we

Dan LeFebvre  55:52

don’t see a lot from the Soviet side in in the movie, but the movie seems to imply, as I mentioned earlier, that they were kind of blowing out their opponents, but you mentioned that they weren’t necessarily so at the point at which the Soviets were playing the US. Do you think that kind of the the atmosphere of the games had changed overall?

Lou Vairo  56:13

Yeah, oh yeah. We were Oh. The building was now packed. Everybody waved flags. All the front runners showed up. They weren’t there at the beginning. They all showed up and in the streets, all these people. I mean, I had a USA jacket so and I I didn’t live in the Olympic Village. I lived outside of it because I wasn’t an official part of the team, and I’d walk the streets. I knew everybody from these different countries, because working with USA hocking is part of my job. And just walking around, they’d see USA jacket. People would come up to me, hug me, kiss me. Some women brought me flowers, and they would say with their accents, thank you. Thank you. Thank you America. It was so thrilled to see the Russians get beat and and I’d have a chance for the gold medal. It was, it was never talked about, never spoken about. But there’s people. They’re immigrants to our country, and here they were cheering for us against their role, people you know, against people they felt invaded them their country, and tell them hostage. So it was interesting.

Dan LeFebvre  57:36

There was a point in the movie. I don’t remember the specific dialog to it, but it becomes pretty obvious that there’s more than just the game itself. I mean, the movie doesn’t get into politics or anything like that, so we don’t focus on politics either. But there is a point where Kurt Russell’s version of coach Brooks says something like, we’re about to play the greatest team in the world. Can’t we just leave it at that? But it seems pretty obvious that there’s, there’s something else to Soviet Union playing the United States in the Olympics game. They’re going to have external impacts. Did that imply a lot of extra pressure to the team?

Lou Vairo  58:14

No, I’d say no. I think most of them didn’t care. Most of them, most people, young people like that. They just want to live their lives. And these kids were looking to become pros and or move on with their lights to the next stage, whatever that might be. I don’t, I don’t think so. No, I think that scrum probably, yeah, some, it probably excites me more than others, but most, no. And you know, I dealt with the Soviets a lot, and if you’re dealing with bureaucrats and you’re dealing with politicians, it’s never, wasn’t in any realm. But if you deal with the people, it is just the people. They’re no different than we are to be Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, Italian, Irish, Swedish, and it doesn’t matter Argentinian. It doesn’t matter Canadian. All people basically want to do is live their lives. They want to have a job, decent job, raise their family, go to the beach for two weeks in the summer, have food on their table, follow their favorite sports teams, maybe have a doctor in Russia, in Russia, or some of the European countries outside of a big city, where they have a little garden and a place in the summer, a retreat to go to on weekends, that’s all people want. Really, average person, they don’t get deeply involved in the international politics of everything, and if you follow it. On the news. You know, as well as I do, the way it’s the news have deteriorated now it’s half the newscasts, nor more than half the newscasts are politically slanted, and you don’t even know if you’re getting honest reports from either side of the political spectrum. No, I don’t think politics. I think underneath the circus with Carter saying we’re not going to go to Russia for the Summer Olympics in this in the invasion of Afghanistan, yeah, they bothered. We took the same thing years later, and we got chased out just like, just like Soviet now we gotta, really gotta find, we gotta find politicians that look to create peace, not not not fighting, because General people, in general, are just people that the same everywhere. You just want to live, live their lives well, because

Dan LeFebvre  1:01:05

the movie focuses so much on that game against the Soviets, as you mentioned earlier, it wasn’t like Team USA was done. They had one more game against Finland, but the movie doesn’t really focus on that too much. So can you fill in some more details that we don’t see in the movie about the actual gold medal game for team USA against Finland.

Lou Vairo  1:01:24

Yeah, I can tell you that Herb was very concerned and worried that there’d be a letdown, and that’s why he made that great speech in the room. And I think we had very good leadership from luzioni and pakoda and these guys on the team, some of the team leaders of the team, Jimmy Craig was zoned in focus then, and Mark Johnson, you know, like I told you, history USA Hockey, I would put them in The top six, seven sentiment we ever had in our hockey to this day. You gotta have Johnson Pavlov, and they got the job done against a great goalie, Walton and from Finland and a good Finnish team. So we did great. We did great and and like I told you, we had the right coaches at the right time for the right team, and it was in the right place. You know, we won two gold medals in our history, in the Olympics, and one was in Squaw Valley, California, the other Lake Placid, and the silver and Salt Lake City on the when you play in the other countries, it’s a little tough. And I’ve been probably, I think I’ve been about six Olympics, so I have a seal for it. And we did great. Plus we were nervous. I didn’t want to. I kept saying to myself, let’s not blow it now we, you know, we cut but what I heard her words, you’ll take it forever to your grades. It got me fired up. I remember because normally I would leave in enough time to walk up a bunch of steps and get to my little booth. Anthony said that that was enough for me to hear. I ran up the steps. I was juiced. I was fired up. You know, those were perfect words for him to come up with,

Dan LeFebvre  1:03:37

yeah, and all ready to go and ready to bring it home and actually finish off and get the gold.

Lou Vairo  1:03:43

Well, what a release that was to do that. It was such a release. Oh, my God. It was so great. Really, was I cried?

Dan LeFebvre  1:03:53

Yeah, I could see it really emotional just letting

Lou Vairo  1:03:57

1. How much cry with this interview. A few times I get choked up. Those memories were great to see such joy on the faces of the players and the fan. It was great, and it’s important to this day because I still coach little kids off ice, training 910, year olds, and they all saw a miracle 150 times each, and they all know it. And I they always asked me about is, did this really help me coach Lou whatever? And I tell them, yeah, it’s all true, boys and a few girls, because we have girls now playing. And if you guys ever want to get to that position. You got to work as hard as those kids did, and that’s just as hard as smart. And we’re giving you stuff here to learn, and you got to practice it at home on your own also. And they get all fired up. They love it well,

Dan LeFebvre  1:04:55

then the movie ends after the the 1980 Olympics. But do. I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask you following up in 1984 Olympics after you know, Herb Brooks was not coaching team USA. That was you were the head coach of us hockey that year. Did you feel any pressure following the as the movie puts it, the miracle team from 1980

Lou Vairo  1:05:17

Yes. Let me tell you a little story that’s interesting. I wasn’t there was no pre ordained coach. I didn’t even want to do it. Nothing like that. What happened was nobody wanted to coach. I gave names. I wasn’t officially on the search committee, but I gave names to the search committees, and I can’t remember exactly. Art Berlin is dead now, but art told me how many five or six coaches they asked, I mean, well known names, Coach team, they all refused, different reasons, legitimate, you know, I can’t leave my college team first a year. I don’t want to do that. What other thing might have been? And Ron De Gregorio, art Berlin and Fayette tutter Was the President of the USA Hockey it was called a house, but I’m a Charity Association of the United States. They said to me, you’ve coached the junior national team. You were with her the Lake Placid. You’ve worked with Bob Johnson. You work with the best and you know, you know the European teams better than anybody we have, and you know, I’ll play a pool. Would you like to coach the team? And I said, No. I wasn’t afraid. I didn’t feel I earned it. And, yeah, I was still pretty young. I don’t know, 36 whatever. I said, No, and art is the one who convinced me. He said, Look, never get another chance. You do that. Anybody can coach anywhere, but the coaching Olympic team is special, and we need you. We need you. And Fayette Hutt was a favorite person of mine. He was a funny, little old guy, good guy, smart and everything, but also just a good guy. And he was always so nice to me. He said, Luke coach, Dean. So they interviewed me, and they interviewed Tim Taylor, and in the interview, I said, give it to Timmy, and he needs help. He’s more qualified than I am, and when they interview Timmy, he’s going to give it to Luke.

Dan LeFebvre  1:07:52

I’ll help, of course.

Lou Vairo  1:07:56

Finally, art Birdland wore me down, and I agreed to do it, and I have absolutely zero regrets. I’m really happy I did it. I had a great team, but of course, when I agreed, I had looked at the debt chart and I saw some of the players that we had. We’d have Bobby Carpenter, we’d have, let’s see Erickson, Brian Mullen, uh, Craig Ludwig, Phil Housley, Tom Barrasso, Johnny van beatrick. I was, I can’t remember all the names now, but pretty good plays. They all died. They didn’t want to wait a year and a half, whatever. Well, I don’t blame them? I didn’t blame them at all. They all died. Baracko died. He got kidnapped by the buffalo sabers during our training camp in Alaska. We were playing the Soviet wings, wings. They came up and they stole and slowed back on a private plane of Buffalo and signed them, and that year in one first gold star, I think, looking of the year of Desmond award. He’s 18 years old. He was a high school player and and I wish they would have said something to me. I wouldn’t have stopped them. I couldn’t have anyway, but I wouldn’t have liked Tom. He turned out to be a great goalie. And I had no problem with the goalies we had left. Mason and Baron were great. They were great. Loved them. But, I mean, it could have been different. Who knows if it would have been different? Aaron brought me another one up until five, six years ago. He was the all time leading scorer of the New Jersey double. These guys would have been on our 84 team, except they will sign and again, don’t blame them the least bit. Never told anything against them, but it would have been a little bit of a different team, and a spill was a great team as Joliot LaFontaine, Eddie oldchurch, David. So two of them, hna, Tommy Hirsch, the Fusco brothers. No, I was a great team. Terry Sampson, Gotti bukester, these guys could play. They could play. They could play better than I could coach. I’ll tell you that they could play. And they were very that was the youngest team ever. But I mean, Ally, afraid, I think, and old Chuck, he was guys. I think eight of our players could have played on the junior national team. There was a team, or very young team, and they went on, many of them, to great careers. Injuries caused problems for a few others. But I love that team, and my sadness with that team is we only lost, you know, how many games that we only lost two games in the Olympics? You could lose the Czechoslovakia and Canada, you know, in close games, that’s possible. And that wasn’t republic of this. And the Republic you didn’t play Panama and Guatemala. You know, you played great countries in hockey and out of our country. But those kids were so young. I had three kids in high school, three or four kids still taking high school classes, living with building families, and ice check the homework. You know, that’s the way it was. And of course, the expectations were tremendous, and our record was two wins, two losses, two ties. I could live with that. And the only reason I It upsets me is the world didn’t see what a good team this was. This was a good team. We beat a lot of NHL teams in preseason exhibition games, and you can’t do that. And we beat Soviet teams at exhibition games. You can’t do that if you weren’t good. You know the players weren’t good. Can’t happen.

Dan LeFebvre  1:12:03

Yeah, it makes sense. Great experience.

Lou Vairo  1:12:05

I’m glad I did it. Now I look back and I’m happy I did it,

Dan LeFebvre  1:12:12

yeah, yeah, no, that, I mean, that’s great. It’s funny, you’re didn’t want to do it, and the other guy didn’t want to do it. And it’s almost like a game of hot potato. Like, no, I don’t want it. You take it. But in

Lou Vairo  1:12:23

the end, it sounds like it was great. If you don’t win a gold medal, you’re a fan,

Dan LeFebvre  1:12:27

right? That’s why I was, yeah, I was, that was the impression that I got. It would be like, because you’re following up with a team that won the gold medal, it’s like, well, if what else can you do? There’s nowhere to go. But

Lou Vairo  1:12:39

down. I tell people, it’s the second greatest thing I ever did in my life, that I’m proud of, that I did it, and I’m glad I took the I wasn’t afraid to take the risk. I wanted our hockey to be great in America. That’s why I worked for USA Hockey. I seen it grow from nothing, something great that it is today. I was very proud of it, but yelled, there’s more important things than winning games. You know, I always say I got drafted in 66 to the army two years that’s the greatest achievement, personally, that I ever had, serving my country that I cherish as the most wonderful gift, then the hockey comes second, and of course, your family comes family and God comes before any time. That’s the way I look at life, simple.

Dan LeFebvre  1:13:38

Well, thank you for your service in the military. And thank you for coming on to chat about the movie miracle. I want to shift a little bit before I let you go to talk about your new autobiography, I’ll make sure to add a link to it in the show notes for this if anybody’s listening and wants to get a copy. But can you give listeners a little peek in your new book and maybe share one of your favorite stories from it the

Lou Vairo  1:14:00

most sweat I had was if Mike said, Lou, you gotta, we gotta have testimonials. I don’t even know what he meant. I thought I died. I said, What do you mean the testimonials? He said, call up some people you know, in hockey or players, sex players, and get them to spend that a few sentences about you, meaning me. I said, I can’t do that. I’m afraid to do it with some of God knows what they’ll list. So I, I went to people. I worked with Jay Riley, Jack Riley’s son. We worked together with national teams. Years ago, he sent the nice piece. Then when I you think I only destroyed hockey in America, I coached the national teams of Italy in Holland also. So I destroyed hockey in three countries, mice and so I called, I called, he has a big job. Up in column now with a former national team player. He wrote a nice thing in and and I asked Phil Housley, Soviet player, very close friend of mine, and guy, go back 40 years with Igor Ariana. Phil Esposito Christian, Chelios, just to name a few. Those are pretty big names. These are all Hall of Fame guys. And very nice thing. Jim Craig, the real beautiful things are very touchy to me, and I didn’t know they felt that way. And I was even afraid to ask them, God knows what they’d write, and Pat Lafon Payne wrote the forward for the book. It’s beautifully written. What he wrote, it’s very touching to me, emotional, and you don’t realize it, but you never think of yourself as making making a difference in anybody’s lives, but these guys claim I did, so it’s just humbling, and very humbling. I don’t like to talk about myself like that. So yeah, it’s going to be an interesting book and and I think a fun read if me and I’ll tell you something else. I can’t stand when I hear people say I’ve been misquoted or I’ve then, what’s the other word? It’s about what I shared. Shut up. I’ve never I’ve done a million interviews in my life that I’ve said some things later on, a few times, that I might have regret, I might have regrets for but I’ve never been misquoted. Period, what you say is what you say, and you can’t run away from it. You gotta deal with it. And you if you did something that you regret, then you can apologize. Can’t say I’ve been misquoted. You. Blame it on the reporter. That’s not right at all. So yeah, that’s a few thinking they’re probably gonna erase somebody. But I also I don’t care. I said them, and so I said, I’ll live with it. No, but I will. I’ll tell you one little story. It’s not in the book. I could write a book just on some of the things, little stories from different people. But this is funny. I had an 18 city tour in the United States in 79 that I organized because we didn’t have teams. Weren’t doing dry land training specific for Aki in those days. And the guy who had really thought of it officially was Anatoly Tara Soviet Union, and he coached Central Army team, and he was national team coach and assistant coach, or CO coach with akati chairmanship. So I invited Bolger to come. I had a good relationship with the Soviet Federation, and we worked it out. And Dr ladaslav Gorski, unfortunately, they’re all dead now. Worski was some Bratislava. He was the Slovak, but then it was Czechoslovak, and he did specific or vice training for goalkeepers of all ages. Karasad Did under 20, rather 15 years old and up pros and chernochev under 15, and we went to 18 cities. I had Charlie to check he’s alive. He lives in Greenwood Lake, New York. Charlie was originally from Czechoslovakia, Prague, and immigrated to the US. We met him as Brooklyn. I met him in Brooklyn at the rate, and we became friends, which we still are to stay. He was the interpreter for Gorski and the Russian the Soviets, and called then they sent led, she’s alive. He’s in his 80s, and Moscow, good guy. He was the interpreter so the two Soviet coaches, so we went all around. They did a great job. They didn’t make much money. We only charge $15 a head per coach come to the seminars. They absolutely was sensational, and they sold out everywhere, and it changed the fortunes of our hockey because 1000s of coach, I don’t know, hundreds or 1000s of coaches were, and lots of kids that we use this the examples in the workouts, learned something great and new that could help them. It influenced our hockey daytime was a great move, and we thought we were going to lose 10 grand, which was a lot of money then, and we made 10. Steam grand after I got permission to give those guys each a bonus for the great job they did. And so it was a win, win, win, win. I was the only one that lost. There was exhausted heal and carrying medicine balls and weights and ropes and rubber suspenders and all kinds of things on airlines around the country, and then there was a plane crash in Chicago when we were there, terrorists have refused to fly anymore. He said, Only if you have aerosol out. I said, Our next stop is Detroit. There’s no air flight flights from Chicago to Detroit, so I had a rest the van, and that’s how we did the last part of our trip, with van with me driving. And it worked out great. It worked out it worked out great. It was wonderful. But we’re in Niagara Falls, New York, and what I wanted to do in order to increase income, and also to include Canada, because we wanted to have a good working relationship the Canadian Amateur Hockey Association. Dennis McDonald was running it. Great guy. Did a great job. He helped me a lot. When I was starting out. We put him in border like Seattle, Hancock, Michigan, Duluth, Minnesota. Where else? Oh, Niagara Falls, New York, right across the river from Ontario. We were able to get a lot of Canadian coaches to come, which was great, and it made him work well. So well in Niagara Falls, and we had a day off. Was a beautiful June day. I said, guys, let’s go see the falls. So we went to the falls. Everybody was impressed. He said that Assaf, he was a very proud Soviet guy. And I said, you don’t think it’s nice. He said, Yes, it’s it’s very nice, but we have better water Forbes and so Henri, I said, it’s okay. That’s who he is, let him say. And I love it now we go to because I would get along great with them, but we’d argue once in a while. Then we went to the aquarium, which was great. You know, with 1000s and they could, they had an aquarium. They still have it. It’s above ground, and you could go down below. You could see the dolphins underwater, as well as on top. So we started out on top, and tarasa wanted to go down to sea, so we all went down, and we’re watching, and I see him make a comment to the interpreter, and both of them laughed at a laugh, but I walked over, I said, Look, what did Anatoly say? He said, Oh, nothing, not important. And of course, but outside, he told me. He said, uh, Lou, you’ll be insulted. I said, No, I won’t. But what did he say? He said, You American? These Americans amazed me. They have beautiful supermarkets, big buildings we’re seeing as we travel across the country. He said they have more mayonnaise than one supermarket to I can find now in all of Moscow combined. They can do everything. They can even teach fish to fulfill the most difficult tasks. Tell me, why can’t they teach their hockey players to make a three meter pass? And I found it was better going and ironically, very true, it was great.

Lou Vairo  1:24:02

This went on week and day after day, week after week. I mean, it was a the height of the Cold War. He was at one of my grandmother’s house. So all these guys for dinner in Brooklyn, this wonderful grandmother of my old Italian lady from Sicily, and she prepared an incredible meal. She was in her 80s that time. She lived to 103 and these guys so respectful and polite and appreciative to her. They just loved loved it that few years after, and it’s at the height of this Cold War. He’s sitting in a club you know, Alison in Brooklyn, eating spaghetti. And it was wild when I look back at wonderful memories every time I would see him anywhere we were in. The world. The first thing he would always say after greeting me, whoa, babushka, okay, grandmother, okay. And I put my thumbs up. It say yes. And he said whoa, very, very in English, he only knew like five words he’d say, very, very, very good spaghetti. And I told my grandmother, she’d get a big kick out of it and ask me how they were doing the last you know, good. You’re okay little wives. So yeah, that’s about it.

Dan LeFebvre  1:25:35

Thank you again. So much for your time, and I really appreciate it.

Lou Vairo  1:25:39

You’re welcome. You’re a pro. Thank you.

October 8, 1967. Bolivia.

To kick off this week’s events from the movies, we’ll go back to the 1969 film called Che! to find an event that happened 57 years ago on Tuesday this week.

About an hour and 21 minutes into the movie, we’re inside a room with a shirtless man’s body lying on a table. A group of men, some in suits and others in military uniforms, are crowded around. One of them points to a bullet wound on body, saying this was the fatal shot less than 24 hours ago.

The camera pans over to the corner of the room where we can see the man in the three-star beret breaking the fourth wall as he talks to the camera. I guess we can give him a name…that’s Albert Paulsen’s character, Captain Vasquez. He explains that the raid on Alto Saco was the beginning of the end for Guevara. Vasquez says they ambushed his rear guard in La Higueras and encircled him in the Churro Ravine.

We’re no longer in the room with the dead body, now, as the scene shifts to what Vasquez is explaining. Rebel soldiers are being shot at by the Rangers in rocks surrounding the ravine. It’s not just rifles, but the Rangers have mortars as well. One of the rebels is killed. Then another. They’re firing back, and some of the Rangers are shot, too.

The intense fighting continues for a few more moments until we can see Omar Sharif’s version of Che Guevara climbing to get out of the ravine. The rebel machine gun is captured, silencing most of the firing. Che and another man seem to be the only two left, and Che is obviously in a lot of pain.

The Rangers close in as the two rebel soldiers fire back from the cover of rocks. The other man is shot and killed. Che, too, is shot, although he’s not killed. Wounded, he lies back and the shooting stops. The Rangers stand up, walking slowly to where Che is lying on the ground.

Che is still breathing as Captain Vasquez reaches him. Pulling out a photo, Vasquez looks at it and then back down at Che. Then, over the radio, Vasquez announces: Puma to Lancer. Puma to Lancer. We’ve got Papa. Alive. Repeat, we’ve got Papa.

The true story behind that scene in the movie Che!

Transitioning into our fact-check of the 1969 film Che!, I’ll first point out that we did a deep dive into the full movie that I’ll link to in the show notes. For this week’s historical event, though, it got the basic gist correct even if it did change a lot of the details from the true story.

For example, remember the guy leading the Rangers in the movie? We talked about him earlier; he’s the guy with the three stars on his beret. The actor playing him Albert Paulsen, and in the movie it’s a character named Captain Vasquez.

In the true story, the leader of the Bolivian Army’s 2^nd Ranger Battalion was Gary Prado Salmón, who was later promoted to General and a national hero in Bolivia for Che’s capture.

The 2^nd Ranger Battalion was trained especially to target the guerilla fighters. While we didn’t cover it in our movie segment this week, a bit earlier in the film Captain Vasquez tells the camera that the CIA was not involved in any way.

Well, most sources that I found say that even though the 2^nd Rangers were from the Bolivian Army, they did get help from the CIA, as well training from the 8^th Special Forces Group from the U.S. Army. I’ll add a link to the show notes for this episode with a fascinating article by Marco Margaritoff over on the website All That’s Interesting that gives a nice overview of a man named Félix Rodríguez, who was the CIA agent tasked with helping in the capture of Che Guevara.

Something else the movie changes from the real story is the number of soldiers involved. In the movie, it looks like Captain Vasquez has maybe a dozen or so Rangers with him. Granted, they’re often among the rocks and moving around the terrain so it’s hard to track down an exact number.

With that said, though, the 2^nd Ranger Battalion had 650 soldiers in it and about 180 to 200 of them were involved in the capture of Che Guevara on October 8^th, 1967. So, there were a lot more soldiers involved than we see in the movie.

In the true story, the Rangers received word during the early morning hours of October 8^th of a little over a dozen men who had walked through a local farmer’s field the night before. They were going toward a canyon area nearby, so that’s where the Rangers went.

The movie was right to show mortars being used, though, as they used mortars and machine guns along with sections, or platoons, of soldiers set up at different areas in the canyon to help seal off the entrances and exits to the canyon while other soldiers in the Battalion closed in on their targets.

It was a tactic that worked, as before long the Rangers pushed back the guerrillas to where they had nowhere else to go. As for Che Guevara himself, somehow his rifle was destroyed—or at least, rendered unusable, and he was shot in the leg. It was in his right calf, so not a mortal wound but between that and not having a weapon, he was forced to surrender when the Rangers came upon him.

Although this, too, seems to have happened differently than what we see in the movie. I say that because in the movie we see the Captain Vasquez character look down at Che and pull a photo out of his pocket to verify that’s who it is. In the true story, though, one of the Rangers, a Sergeant, later told Che’s biographer that Che was the one to identify himself to them.

Either way, Che Guevara was captured on October 8^th, 1967. The next day, the President of Bolivia ordered Che be put to death. And so, on October 9^th, 1967, the revolutionary Che Guevara was executed at the age of 39.

As a last little side note, when the movie shows Che’s body, we can see a bullet wound in his chest that one of the bystanders mentions as being the fatal shot. Even though Che was executed, that sort of shot would still be accurate because according to some sources, it was the CIA agent Félix Rodríguez who suggested they don’t shoot Che in the head to make it obvious he was executed, but rather to shoot him in a way that would look like he’d been a casualty of a run-in with the Bolivian Army.

If you want to watch the event that happened this week in history, check out the 1969 movie called Che! That’s not to be confused with the 2008 two-part series from Steven Soderbergh that’s also called Che. While that’s another good one to watch this week, the movie we talked about today is the 1969 film with an exclamation point at the end: Che!

And don’t forget we’ve got a deep dive in the show notes that you can queue up right now to hear more about the true story of the entire movie!

October 9, 1919. Chicago, Illinois.

Our next historical event falls on Wednesday this week, and we’ll find a re-enactment of it at about an hour and 22 minutes into the movie called Eight Men Out.

Hitting play on the movie, and we’re at a baseball game.

The crowd seems to be getting ready for the game to start. On the mound for the Chicago White Sox is Lefty Williams. He’s played by James Read in the movie.

<whew> Williams exhales.

There’s text on the screen in the movie saying this is game #8.

Then, Williams winds and offers the first pitch. The batter swings, sending a fly ball into right field. We don’t see how far the ball goes, but what we can see is the reaction from many of the White Sox players who don’t seem happy. Williams returns to the mound with a stern look on his face. He looks into the batter’s box where another hitter steps to the plate.

The camera is just behind the catcher now. We can see Williams wind, and pitch. The batter swings, another hit.

Again, we don’t see where it goes, but we can see a baserunner make it to second base. That must be the guy who got the first hit. Two back-to-back hits, it seems.

In the crowd, Lefty Williams’ wife looks sad.

Back on the mound, Williams is ready for another hitter. He looks at the runner on second. The pitch. Way outside. The catcher has to reach to stop it, but he does. No runners advance. The next pitch.

The batter swings, and Williams’ head snaps around to watch what we can assume is a high fly ball to right field. Again, we can’t see how far it goes, but we can see the catcher throwing his mitt down as a runner crosses the plate to score. The crowd is jeering at Williams, who seems to be starting the game off on a rocky note.

But, the game goes on, and Williams settles in to face the next hitter.

The pitch.

Another high fly ball, this time to left field. It hits the outfield wall, and we can see another runner score as he crosses home plate. Again, the catcher throws his mitt to the ground in disgust. As he does, another runner crosses home plate. Three runs scored so far, and there’s a runner on second.

John Mahoney’s character, Kid Gleason, runs from the White Sox dugout. As he does, he yells, “James, you’re in!”

When he reaches the pitcher’s mound he takes the ball from Williams, ending his day.

The true story behind that scene in the movie Eight Men Out

That sequence comes from the 1988 movie directed by John Sayles called Eight Men Out. The event it’s depicting is the final game of the 16^th World Series, which happened this week in history on October 9^th, 1919.

The movie is historically accurate to show Lefty Williams starting that day for what was game eight of the Series. And it’s also correct to show him giving up a number of hits, but in the movie, it looks like all but one of the hits are going to right field—they weren’t all hit there, but then again, we don’t see where the ball goes in the movie. All we can see are the actor’s reactions to the hits, so maybe that’s nitpicking a little too much.

Here’s the true story.

The first hitter to face Lefty Williams in game eight of the 1919 World Series was the Cincinnati Reds’ second baseman, Morrie Rath. He popped out to start the game. The second hitter was the Reds first baseman Jake Daubert. He hit a single to center field. Next up was Heinie Groh, the third baseman. He smacked another single, this one to right field a lot like we see in the movie. It also allowed Daubert to advance from first to second, just like we see in the movie.

Next up for the Reds was their cleanup hitter, the center fielder Edd Roush. He smashed a double to right field, allowing Daubert to score and Groh moved to third base.

I couldn’t find anything in my research to suggest the White Sox catcher got so fed up by the pitcher Williams giving up these hits that he threw his mitt on the ground like we see happening in the movie. But the movie was correct to show that catcher for the White Sox being Ray Schalk. He’s played by Gordon Clapp in the movie.

The next batter for the Reds was their left fielder, Pat Duncan. He hit a double to left field, driving in Groh from third and Roush from second. At this point, the Reds were up 3-0 with one out in the first inning.

The White Sox manager had seen enough. Just like we see him doing in the movie, Kid Gleason took out his starter and put in the right-handed reliever Bill James.

To establish a bit of context that we don’t see in the movie, the 26-year-old Lefty Williams was the White Sox #2 starter. His real name, by the way, is Claude. “Lefty” was just a nickname. And yes, he was a left-handed pitcher.

In 1919, Lefty had a stellar record of 23 wins to 11 losses with an ERA of 2.64. That’s spread across 297 innings. In fact, Williams not only led the White Sox with 125 strikeouts, he led the majors that season with 40 games started and he tied the White Sox #1 starter, Eddie Cicotte, with five shutouts.

So, Williams had a fantastic season in 1919.

His playoff record wasn’t so great, as he went 0-3 giving up 12 earned runs across 16.1 innings pitched for an ERA of 6.61. And while we didn’t talk about what happened the night before the game, there are a lot of people who believe Lefty Williams was given an ultimatum.

What really happened is one of those moments behind closed doors that we’ll just never know for sure.

As the story goes, Williams was visited by an associate of the bookie and gambler who had offered cash to the White Sox players in exchange for them throwing games. That same story suggests this unnamed associate told Williams that either he purposely lose his next start or else his wife and child would pay the consequences.

And so, as we know from what happened publicly, Lefty Williams had a terrible game. He gave up three runs and couldn’t even get through the first inning before being pulled. The Reds would go on to win the game 10-5, and by extension, the World Series overall, five games to three.

The allegations of throwing the Series hit the White Sox almost immediately, earning the team the nickname “Black Sox” for the scandal. It also changed Major League Baseball as the owners gave over control to establish the position of the Commissioner of Baseball, a position that still exists today, in an attempt to give public trust in the sport again. It’d also end up with eight players from the White Sox being permanently banned from Major League Baseball—hence the title of the movie, Eight Men Out.

One of those players who was permanently banned was Lefty Williams.

So, if you’re feeling like a sports movie to watch this week, check out the 1988 film called Eight Men Out!

And if you want to learn more about the true story, after you watch the movie, we compared that with history back on episode #132 of Based on a True Story. Or, if you want to take a super deep dive, the entire second season of another fantastic podcast called Infamous America is dedicated to the Black Sox Scandal of 1919. You can find a link to that in the show notes for this episode.

October 12, 1492. The Bahamas.

From the baseball field in the last movie, to the Bahamas, our next movie is the 1992 movie called 1492: Conquest of Paradise. About 54 minutes into the movie, we’ll find this week’s event as we can see two large ships. There’s one in the foreground and another a little distance away, and they’re not moving at all. In fact, the night before in the movie, we saw the anchors land in the water.

Today, we’re seeing smaller boats departing the large ships and heading toward the land we can see in the distance. Lush, green trees and sandy beaches make this scene look like what you’d expect for sailors on ships in the 1400s to be making landfall on an island in the Caribbean.

Because of the camera angles in the movie, it’s hard to see exactly how many boats are leaving the larger ships but I counted at least five in a single frame. Each boat is filled with men, and each boat is carrying flags of orange, yellow, purple, and many bright colors.

The camera focuses on one of the men as he jumps off the boat into the water. The movie goes into slow motion, capturing the moment as he splashes into the waist-deep water. He continues to walk in slow motion, each footstep splashing into the water.

He falls to his knees just beyond the waves in a gesture of appreciation. The camera cuts to other men jumping off the boats now. Some are running onto the land, others are falling onto the sandy beach—overall, it’s a scene that makes it obvious they haven’t seen land for quite some time. Dry land is a welcome sight.

Then, the movie gives us the location and the date. Guanahani Island. 12^th of October 1492.

The man who was on his knees gets up now. He’s approached by a colorfully dressed man.

“Don Christopher,” he says, as he unravels a scroll. Christopher signs something on the scroll. Then he speaks, “By the grace of God, in the name of their gracious Majesties of Castilla and Aragon…”

He pauses for a moment to turn around to the men who are all lined up on the beach now.

“…by all the powers vested in me, I claim this island and name it San Salvador.”

Then, the camera backs up to show the line of men as they start walking inland.

The true story behind that scene in the movie 1942: Conquest of Paradise!

That is a sequence from the 1992 movie called 1492: Conquest of Paradise. The event it’s depicting is Christopher Columbus making his first landing after the long trip across the ocean from Europe.

That happened this week in history, on October 12^th, 1492, right away let’s clarify the ships themselves. In the sequence we talked about today, we could only see two ships at any one time in the movie. In the true story, Columbus sailed with three ships: Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria.

That we only saw two in the sequence we talked about today isn’t really a point against the movie for historical accuracy—we do see three ships at different points in the movie. It’s just the sequence for October 12^th doesn’t really show all three ships at one time.

With that said, there has been a lot of debate among historians about exactly where Columbus landed.

According to Columbus himself, it was on an island called Guanahani. That’s the name we see mentioned in the movie.

The name, Guanahani, is the Taino name for the island. Just like we see in the movie, Columbus named the island San Salvador upon his arrival. I’m not sure if he did it the moment he landed on the beach like we see in the movie, but then again, Columbus thought he landed in East Asia at first. He didn’t know he actually landed in a chain of islands we now know as the Bahamas.

The name he gave the island is derived from the Spanish “Isla San Salvador” or, in English, “Island of the Holy Savior.”

As a little side note, the name “Guanahani” means “Small Land in the Upper Waters” in the Taino language. The Taino language, in turn, used to be the most popular language in the Caribbean at the time of Columbus’ landing…but that language is extinct now. Also, in the 17^th century, the island was called Waitlings Island after an Englishman who landed there. In 1925, the island was officially renamed to San Salvador.

In 1971, Columbus Day became an officially recognized Federal holiday in the United States—but that recognition has changed in recent years. The observance of the holiday doesn’t always land on October 12^th, but at least now you know a little more about the history behind the event that happened this week in history.

If you want to dig further into the story, of course you can watch the movie called 1492: Conquest of Paradise.

Even that title is a bit controversial when you consider how Columbus landed on lands owned by people who already lived there and conquered them.

Remember when I mentioned the Taino language is extinct now? Well, that’s just one example of something lost to history since Columbus’ landing. There has been a lot of controversy over his and other colonists’ actions.

As a result, in 1992, Berkeley, California became the first city in the United States to celebrate Indigenous Peoples’ Day instead of Columbus Day. Cities like Austin, Seattle, and Philadelphia, or states like Maine, South Dakota, and Alaska, among many others have dropped Columbus Day in favor of Indigenous Peoples’ Day. Here in Oklahoma where I’m recording this from right now, many here celebrate Native American Day instead.

So, if you’re looking for something to watch this week, the movie we talked about in this segment is called 1492: Conquest of Paradise. The landing sequence happens at about 54 minutes into the movie. If you watch the movie, or even if you just want to dig deeper into the history, scroll back to episode #186 of Based on a True Story where we covered that movie and the true story behind it.

Historical birthdays from the movies

Let’s move onto our next segment now, where we learn about historical figures from the movies that were born this week in history.

On October 9^th, 1895, Eugene Bullard was born in Columbus, Georgia. He is considered to be the first African American military pilot to fly in combat. And even though he was born in the United States, he flew for the French during WWI—he was rejected by the U.S. military. He’s one of those historical figures that I wish there was a biopic about his life, but if you want to see a movie in his honor this week, then I’d recommend the 2012 movie called Red Tails. Now, right up front, I’ll let you know that movie is not about Eugene Bullard. It’s about the Tuskegee Airmen during World War II, but the filmmakers honored Bullard’s memory by having the commander in the movie be named Col. A.J. Bullard. He’s played by Terrence Howard in the movie.

On October 11, 1884, Anna Eleanor Roosevelt was born in New York City, New York. She’s better known by her middle name: Eleanor Roosevelt, and as the First Lady of the United States during World War II while her husband, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, or just FDR as he’s called, was president. And yes, I did a double-check on that too…Eleanor Roosevelt’s maiden name was Roosevelt, and she married Franklin Roosevelt so both her maiden and married name was Roosevelt. Eleanor and Franklin were fifth cousins once removed. This week’s recommendation portraying Eleanor on screen is called The First Lady, the 2022 series from Showtime. Eleanor Roosevelt is played by Gillian Anderson.

On October 13^th, 1537, Jane Grey was born in Bradgate, England. At least, that’s the date often given for her birthdate—hers is one of those birthdays in history that we’re not 100% sure of. She’s often known as Lady Jane Grey, or sometimes as the Nine Days’ Queen, because she was Queen of England for only nine days. Her name earned more fame when Mark Twain used her as a character in his novel from 1882 called The Prince and the Pauper. So, most movie adaptations of that will have someone playing Lady Jane. My recommendation this week, though, is the 2022 series from Starz called Becoming Elizabeth. As you can tell from the title, it’s more about Queen Elizabeth I, but Lady Jane is played by Bella Ramsey in that series. So, if you’re a fan of The Last of Us, maybe you’ll enjoy seeing Bella star in another series.

‘Based on a True Story’ movie that released this week

This week’s movie premiere from history is the film directed by Paul Greengrass called Captain Phillips, which was released in the U.S. 11 years ago this week on October 11^th, 2013.

In the movie, Tom Hanks portrays the lead role of Captain Richard Phillips, who takes command of the cargo ship called the Maersk Alabama. Despite the name, the Maersk Alabama’s home port according to the movie is the Port of Salalah in Oman.

When he’s given orders to take the vessel to Mombasa, Kenya, that takes him past the Horn of Africa where there has been some known pirate activity. So, along with the help of the first officer, Michael Chernus’ version of Shane Murphy, as they get underway, they go through their security protocols.

That’s when they notice a couple small boats following their massive ship.

Fearing they’re pirates, Captain Phillips calls for aid from a nearby warship. Of course, there’s not really a warship, but the pirates don’t know that. And Captain Phillips knows the pirates don’t know that, but he also knows they’re listening to the radio, so he thinks maybe if they think the military is nearby that’ll scare them off.

And it sort of works. One of the two skiffs turns around, while the other loses power in the wake of the huge cargo ship.

But they’re not in the clear yet, because the next day, one of the skiffs filled with pirates returns to the chase. Since their boat is much smaller, it’s also faster, and before long the armed pirates manage to attach their ladder to the Maersk Alabama and climb aboard despite the best efforts of the cargo ship’s crew to stop them. Then, the pirates seize control of the ship at gunpoint, and very soon it becomes clear to Captain Phillips that the pirates intend to ransom off the crew and ship for the insurance money.

The leader of the pirates is a guy named Abduwali Muse, who is played by Barkhad Abdi in the movie.

Meanwhile, it doesn’t take long for the U.S. military to actually find out the Maersk Alabama has been taken over by the pirates. After all, they’re wanting the insurance money, so the pirates aren’t trying to hide the fact that they took over the ship. So, the U.S. Navy launches a destroyer called USS Bainbridge under the command of Frank Castellano. He’s played by Yul Vazquez in the movie.

Things descend into a fight between the mostly unarmed crew and very well-armed pirates aboard the cargo ship. I say “mostly” unarmed, because we do see things like the crew using a knife to try and hold Muse hostage and force all the pirates to leave in a lifeboat. But, they won’t do that unless Captain Phillips goes with them. Trying not to make matters worse, Phillips goes along with the pirates in exchange for them leaving the rest of the crew on the Maersk Alabama.

Meanwhile, on the lifeboat, the pirates beat and blindfold Captain Phillips in what has now become a kidnapping situation as well. We see Bainbridge enter the picture and try to get to a peaceful solution. As part of that process, they hook up the lifeboat to Bainbridge so it’s being towed by the destroyer while inviting the pirate leader, Muse, to Bainbridge to negotiate. He agrees, and in the movie, we also see SEAL Team Six from the U.S. Navy setting up snipers to try and take out the pirates.

Near the climax at the end of the movie, the U.S. Navy pulls off a perfectly timed maneuver that involves stopping their tow of the lifeboat to throw the pirates off balance just as three snipers from the destroyer take three simultaneous shots and kill three of the pirates at the exact same moment.

The movie ends with Muse being the only pirate left alive. He’s arrested and taken into custody as Captain Phillips is rescued from the lifeboat and treated for his injuries.

The true story behind Captain Phillips

Before we compare the true story with the movie, I do want to point out that we did a deep dive into the full movie back on episode #28 of Based on a True Story so I’ll link that in the show notes if you want to give that a listen as well.

For today’s purposes, though, let’s start with the overview of the people in the story.

The character Tom Hanks is playing in the movie, Captain Phillips, is a real person. As of this recording, he’s still alive. Actually, it’s his book that the movie is based on. That book is called A Captain’s Duty: Somali Pirates, Navy SEALS, and Dangerous Days at Sea. I’ll throw a link to that in the show notes, too.

The pirate leader, Abduwali Muse, is also a real person who is also still alive as of this recording—he’s currently serving a 33-year prison sentence in Terre Haute, Indiana, which means unless something changes between now and then, Muse will be released in 2038, by which time he’ll be 48 years old.

That’s right, Muse was just 18 years old when all this happened in April of 2009. Or…maybe he was 19, but we’ll get to that in a moment.

Some of the other characters in the movie are real people, too, like USS Bainbridge’s Commander Frank Castellano, and some other more background crew in the movie are based on real people but with some fictionalization thrown in to help tell the story.

But, of course, there’s always more to the true story that we don’t see in the movie.

So, let’s go back to April 8^th, 2009, because that’s when our true story starts.

Maersk Alabama really is the name of the ship that was hijacked by pirates that day. The name comes from the Danish shipping company headquartered out of Copenhagen called Maersk. They’re a massive company who has been around since 1928, although it’s worth mentioning that Maersk Alabama was registered under a U.S. flag.

That’s because technically Maersk Alabama in 2009 was run by Maersk Line, a division of Maersk that’s based out of Norfolk, Virginia, in the United States. As a little side note, after the timeline of the movie, Maersk Alabama was sold to another company and renamed to MV Tygra. As of this recording, she’s still in operation on the seas.

While I didn’t notice the movie mentioning this, in the true story when she was hijacked that marked the first time a ship bearing the U.S. flag was seized by pirates since the 1800s.

With that said, though, the movie is correct to show the crew on Maersk Alabama preparing for a possible pirate attack because Maersk Alabama was actually the sixth ship to be attacked by pirates just that week! The other ships just weren’t bearing a U.S. flag, but everyone was aware of how dangerous the waters were.

The movie is correct to show that she was heading from Salalah, Oman, to Mombasa, Kenya. On board, she was carrying 401 containers of primarily food aid for refugees in countries like Kenya, Rwanda, Uganda, Somalia, etc.

Any training the crew had done prior turned into reality when the true story behind the movie began on April 8^th, 2009. Just like we see in the movie, that’s when four pirates attacked the ship armed with AK-47s. We learned that Muse was just 18 or 19 years old at the time of the attack, and that actually became an issue in the subsequent trial because at first there were questions about whether or not he could even be tried as an adult.

According to Robert Gates, who was the U.S. Secretary of Defense at the time, the four pirates were between 17 and 19 years old, although Muse’s own mother said he was only 16 at the time. At the time, some suggested perhaps she said that so Muse wouldn’t be tried as an adult, but regardless, for our purposes today it’s safe to say all the pirates who boarded Maersk Alabama that day were teenagers.

The movie is also correct to show the purpose for the pirates was to get the insurance money for Maersk Alabama. As we just learned, there were a lot of other ships captured at the time—actually, even the fishing vessel the pirates used as their own “mother ship,” so to speak, was one they hijacked. That was the FV Win Far 161, which was a 700-tonnes Taiwanese ship that Somali pirates captured on April 6^th, 2009, and then used to launch the smaller skiffs to hijack even more ships.

We don’t see any of that in the movie since it’s mostly focused on Maersk Alabama, but FV Win Far 161 was eventually released by pirates in early 2010.

Back to the true story aboard Maersk Alabama, though, after being boarded by the pirates, the ship’s Chief Engineer and First Assistant Engineer, Mike Perry and Matt Fisher, respectively, worked to remove steering and engine control from the bridge, and shut down the ship’s systems. In other words, the ship went dead in the water.

Just like we see in the movie, the pirates boarded the ship and went right to the bridge. That’s where they captured Captain Phillips along with other crew, and they also found out they weren’t able to control the ship thanks to what Perry and Fisher did down below. And as we just learned, the pirates were very young and they were not highly trained engineers like Perry and Fisher so couldn’t really do anything about it themselves without help from Maersk Alabama’s crew—which, obviously, they weren’t inclined to do!

Of course, that doesn’t mean the pirates didn’t try to convince the ship’s crew to get it going again. While they held Captain Phillips in the bridge, Muse went in search of the rest of the cargo ship’s crew to do exactly that. And as you can probably guess, that was something the pirates intended to do at gunpoint.

But here’s where the movie shows the Maersk Alabama crew start fighting back, because for all they knew the pirates were going to sail the ship back to Somalia if they got it moving again…and that wouldn’t bode well for them.

Before I mentioned Mike Perry, the Chief Engineer; he’s played by David Warshofsky in the movie. While I didn’t mention this earlier, while the pirates were boarding the ship and trying to figure out why the controls didn’t work in the bridge, the rest of the Maersk Alabama’s crew hid in a secure hold in the ship. Remember, they had prepared for a possible pirate attack, so kind of like you have a plan for where you’ll go in case of emergency—so did they.

Mike Perry, though, hid himself outside of the secure room. His plan was to try and capture one of the pirates so he could trade the pirate for Captain Phillips. Basically, a prisoner exchange. So, when Muse walked by looking for crew, Perry jumped him with a knife and managed to subdue the teenager. Then, they offered the exchange to the pirates in the bridge. The movie gets that pretty accurate, too, because the offer was for the pirates to get their leader back, Muse, as well as all the cash they had on the ship—there was $30,000 in the ship’s safe, and then they also offered the pirates the use of the Maersk Alabama’s lifeboat for them to get off the ship.

Keeping in mind, again, that the pirates were teenagers who no doubt were feeling a little overwhelmed and unable to move the massive ship, they agreed to the deal. So, the crew released Muse with the cash and expected the pirates to hold up their end of the bargain.

But, things didn’t go according to plan. Instead, the pirates took Captain Phillips into the 28-foot lifeboat with them. So, now, the four pirates are off the Maersk Alabama, but now it’s also a hostage situation.

In the movie, we see the U.S. Navy destroyer USS Bainbridge get called into the picture around this time, and that is true. But, in the true story, the USS Bainbridge was not the only U.S. Navy ship involved—because, as we learned earlier—the Maersk Alabama was also not the only ship that had been hijacked by Somali pirates recently. So, there was a U.S. Navy presence in the area. There was another frigate, USS Halyburton, who was sent to deal with the hostage situation alongside Bainbridge.

And something else we don’t see in the movie is that the pirates’ ships also started to converge on the situation. Remember when we talked about the Taiwanese fishing vessel the pirates used as a “mother ship” of sorts? Well, as the Navy arrived on scene, so, too, did about four other ships all under pirate control. On those four ships were the crew held hostage by the pirates, so over 50 hostages from countries around the world.

Since Maersk Alabama was the only U.S. ship hijacked, though, and Captain Phillips was the captain of said ship…that’s why the movie’s story focuses more on the U.S.-centric version of the story. Also, because it’s based on Captain Phillips’ book, of course.

So, if you recall, the pirates boarded Maersk Alabama on April 8^th. On April 9^th, the Bainbridge and Halyburton arrived on scene and stayed just outside of the range of fire from the pirates. Instead, they used UAVs to get intelligence on the lifeboat and the situation as a whole.

By the way, the lifeboat is a covered lifeboat. The movie shows it pretty well, but if you’re like me and you think of the Titanic lifeboats—well, this happened in 2009 and not 1912, so obviously the lifeboat is a little different haha! Before long, the Navy made contact with the lifeboat and started to try negotiating with the pirates for Captain Phillips’ release—as well as the 54 other hostages on the other pirate-held boats.

On April 10^th, another Navy ship, the Wasp-class amphibious assault ship USS Boxer arrived at the scene, and negotiations continued with the pirates. The next day, everything changed when the pirates fired on USS Halyburton. No one was hurt, and Halyburton didn’t shoot back—no doubt not wanting to make things worse. I mean, Halyburton isn’t the world’s largest military ship, but it’s still a 453-foot-long battle-ready military ship with an array of armaments that could easily take out the 28-foot lifeboat if they really wanted to.

With Captain Phillips still held hostage on the lifeboat, though, Halyburton held their fire.

We don’t really see this in the movie, but in the true story’s timeline, April 11^th was also when Maersk Alabama finally arrived in Mombasa, Kenya, with the rest of the ship’s crew who had gotten it back underway after the pirates made their escape in the lifeboat. The U.S. Navy was involved in that, too, and escorted Maersk Alabama the rest of the way to ensure no other pirates would try to capture her again.

Meanwhile, back in the hostage situation, when the pirates fired on Halyburton, the U.S. Navy’s position changed from attempting to negotiate a release, to arranging a rescue. To help with that, they managed to convince Muse to come aboard Bainbridge for the negotiations the following day, April 12^th.

And so, the end of the movie is quite accurate to the end of the true story.

With Muse aboard Bainbridge, three SEAL Team Six snipers coordinated to simultaneously shoot the remaining three pirates on the lifeboat at the same time. Then, the Navy swooped in to rescue Captain Phillips, and with no more hostage to negotiate, Muse was arrested aboard Bainbridge. They never did find the $30,000, although some conspiracies have arisen that perhaps members of the SEAL Team Six took it before anyone else noticed—that’s never been proven one way or the other, though.

After the situation was handled at sea, Muse was taken back to the United States where he stood trial. Despite what his mother said about him being 16, Muse himself said he was 18, so he was tried as an adult. A few weeks later, in May of 2009, Captain Phillips sold his story to be told in what would become both the 2010 memoir from Phillips as well as the 2013 Paul Greengrass-directed movie we’ve learned about today.